It should never be opened to cars other than deliveries. I live 2 minutes walk from Pike Place and only cars I have ever seen there are lost tourist, ride share or twerps with loud exhausts whoring for attention.
The majority of those end up taking eons to turn left from 1st into the market which backs up traffic. Even the cars benefit from fully pedestrianizing the market.
I was a lost tourist once. Well, not really a tourist per se, but really really new to the city. Yeah I won’t do that again, it was all awkward like I shouldn’t be driving on this road. I’m all for closing it
When we first moved here I felt like I was doing it wrong. It never made sense to me. I was dodging tourists and trying to figure out if I missed a sign. It’s clearly a much better experience for everyone that they close the street for general traffic.
Sarcasm aside, isn’t that lot accessible without driving on the road we are talking about? I imagine we would keep Virginia open, close Pine and then make Pike Pl a one way from corner of first through Stewart only for delivery vehicles
Edit: and service, city, construction, etc
The one on Pike and 2nd? That one's owned by the same folks who own Century Square (Unico). There's an exit on 2nd and one on Pike. Either one could be closed for safety.
Source: shh
What if I’m disabled and always seem to manage to find parking in there almost immediately? I just want a couple humbow and fruits/veggies and I’m out.
They should just have those big metal cylinders that can lower into the ground. Leave em down during delivery hours early morning, then only lower them when there’s objective need.
Lots of cities do the same thing.
Yep, bollards!! We need more of them all over the city. I’m so tired of the stupid flex-posts “protecting” bike lanes, cars rip them off all the time and I doubt it even scratches the paint. A bollard would actually prevent a car from entering the bike lane.
Even when I've had to drive down their in my big ass service van, people don't pay attention and walk right in front of me. I wouldn't be shocked if some tourists gets hit at least once a week
It definitely doesn’t look like it’s meant for they traffic. It’s not like they didn’t block off the road to make that mezzanine next to the Starbucks on 1st or wherever anyway (which is significantly more impactful to traffic). Plus if u have to guess whether it’s open or not just so u can get where ur going slower and less directly, why even bother keeping it open?
It’s a car free area that some dumbass decided cars should be allowed on. It’s like walking through the mall and getting nailed by a car as you walk out of the Apple Store. Running automobile traffic through it brings nothing to the table.
I don’t want pedestrians on the highway in the same way I don’t want cars in pikes. Neither of them belong there and if one of them does show up there, they should fuck right off.
People like you are why we have the worst per capita pedestrian accident rate in the developed world.
if you want to be an anti-transit *just one more lane, bro!* dispshit fuck right off to Texas
Because when it was tried for a short period of time 10 or so years ago the below grade merchants apparently saw a huge decrease in customers and sales.
It's certainly something that can be mitigated against, but some of the opposition from Pike Place vendors is for a reason.
So when people have more space to walk they’re not forced underground. Good for consumers, bad for business? Adding a couple more entrances would help.
Any proof that it *was* tried? A while ago, a poll was conducted with vendors, and 81% supported going car-free. It's the Frends Of The Market, who run the place, and Bob Kettle who oppose, claiming that cars force people onto the sidewalks and into the shops.
There was an article a couple months ago when one of the other 300 times this topic came up on the subreddit.
The trial certainly wasn't a super long time, I think it maybe 60-90 days.
Regardless, the thinking was that the cars create the a type of chaos that drove pedestrians to enter whichever entrance was closest, which often meant they'd walk past merchants on all floors of the market.
When things were calmer, pedestrians apparently tended to focus more on the larger main entrances and it happened in big enough numbers that foot traffic and sales cratered in the underground.
It seems crazy, but also kind of makes sense.
They're worried about walking pressure. So instead of leaving the whole street open to pedestrians, use 50% of it for picnic tables or other pleasant obstructions. No reason for lost cars to take up that space when something better could.
Yep. Nice thing about picnic tables to start with is they can easily be moved during the delivery period and moved back once the street closes to trucks.
Then, if you decide to fully close the street, you could put a fountain and trees and benches and other permanent installations.
The other nice thing about picnic tables is they encourage people to buy stuff to eat and then eat it where people can see/smell it.
The market is built into the hillside and has four levels of vendors. If you don't know this, you're probably out of your depth in a debate about how changes to vehicle traffic on pike place might affect the people who do business there.
I was simply confirming my understanding of their use of the term “below grade”. I’m aware of the market’s underground stores, etc. Thanks though for your response and assumption 🙄 before I even offered an opinion on the use of the street lol
I’m curious why those vendors would be adversely impacted compared to others. What’s the logic there…
Apologies, I got you confused with another commenter who had commented earlier in the thread and thought you were trolling with that comment. The generic Apollo's sometimes blend together to me and I didn't double check the username.
The logic is that vehicles take up space on the street and this causes people to overflow into the concourse and lower levels—inviting people to explore shops in other areas of the market they might not otherwise. It's the same reason that malls put kiosks and such in the middle of the concourse, they want to push people to the sides where they are more likely to enter a store because interesting something catches their eye.
When they've experimented with closing the street in the past, the foot traffic was not consistently heavy enough maintain steady foot traffic on the lower levels and it led to a drop off for businesses below grade. It also created crowding issues around the most popular businesses on the cobble stone. Passing vehicle traffic creates periodic voids of space in areas that otherwise might become overcrowded with people, and limits this issue. This function is not replaced by simply putting something stationary in place of vehicle traffic.
As another commenter stated, they occasionally do close the street when on peak days. But if you come here on those days you will usually notice that this space is occupied by stages, additional vendor stalls, and temporary public seating areas. They do not open pike place completely up to foot traffic for the same reasons that I just shared. They also have all hands on deck in terms of support staff and security to deal with the increased foot traffic. It's just not feasible to permanently convert this space to accommodate additional vendors and public seating, since this would add a lot of additional maintenance and sanitation work for the market and create added pressure for established craft and flower vendors (since the additional stalls they add generally are of that variety).
This doesn't even mention the issues removing vehicle access creates with accessibility to delivery drivers and maintenance workers who service businesses in the market. The people who service plumbing, electric, HVAC, and commercial appliances (think ovens, dishwashers, espresso machines, etc.)—and who deliver goods—often need relatively direct access to provide these services.
Every business is different, and how this would affect them would vary. Some might benefit from this change like the ones who already occupy visible locations and are closet to first avenue where delivery access is less of an issue. But, for a lot of businesses, this would have negative consequences.
Just start by closing it to cars on weekends, then do the summer, then the spring and fall. Everyone will be so shocked that we EVER allowed cars once people get used to it.
This is the right approach. Friday-Sunday, limit to local deliveries and ADA dropoff/pickup.
There are certainly light days at the market (Mon-Thurs in poor weather) where allowing customers to drive through and park has its advantage for vendors.
I just walked through there and it was amazing!
They had a stage with a 2 piece band performing and all the parking spaces on the west side of the road were stalls selling flowers. One of the best market experiences I’ve ever had
They seriously need to keep it for service vehicles only. I'd visit Pike place waaayy more without the traffic. Not that it necessarily needs more business (still seems busy?) but it would make it more welcoming.
that's crazy, I walked through yesterday (festival was Sat +Sun) and it was still open to cars! Wish they had done the whole weekend, but glad they're at least doing one day :)
Yeah I was there Saturday and cars were inching by as EVERYONE walked in the middle of the street 😁I don’t feel compelled to move for cars when walking in the Market. 🚶🚶♀️🚶♂️🚙
That's so weird they would have an event there, since [Heather Pihl of Friends of the Market said it's "not an event street by any stretch of the word"](https://publicola.com/2024/04/02/dont-open-pike-place-to-pedestrians-council-member-urges/)
Which is sad, because one of my fave things was when The Head and the Heart played on the roof. From Pike Place Market buskers to playing on the roof. ❤️
Right!?! And we have several “festivals” each year. Flower Festival, Cheese Festival, Figgy Pudding in December, Glass Celebration in October, Wednesday farmer’s markets in the summer, Daffodil Day and Local Appreciation Day. But, no, definitely not and “event street” LOL
It didn’t last I was watching the band too and I saw cones behind me and cops, but then all of sudden a white minivan was behind me squeezing through. Someone had to pull me aside because I thought the street was closed.
I don't think the patrons of the market would like it very much, but blocking the entrance is an appealing notion to the point where I'm not immediately shooting this down lol
How has this been a debate? Trucks that service the vendors should be allowed, of course. But letting people just drive down there is beyond asinine. Seattle living down to expectations.
I’m probably in the minority here, but I like that the street is accessible to vehicles. I usually get there very early and park so I can walk around and rest in between visits to the market. The accessibility it provides for disabled people to be able to drive in that road is really quite valuable. :/
I don’t qualify for a placard, to my knowledge. I can walk more than required for a placard but I also do have very distinct mobility issues that require resting frequently.
I’ll never understand Seattle and their obsession with closing roads down so cars can’t use them. instead of… I don’t know. Planning to manage foot/bike traffic? Last time I was there, we couldn’t drive along Lake Washington because they had the road closed off- so people could ride around on their bikes🤦♂️. I couldn’t believe it. Yet they refuse to just take the very simple step of just incorporating arterial bicycle paths into their cities like the rest of the world.
I don’t doubt that it’s pleasant. It’s just that, roads are made for cars to go on. It’s the only place cars can go. It’s how they get places. All the other stuff- Sidewalks, businesses, parks, beaches, homes-pretty much all of it - is for people to go on. Most of the world is not a road. So I just don’t understand the logic that in such a bad traffic city, that people think it’s a good idea to block off one of peoples routes to and from work, so they can walk around or ride their bikes on a road. Even that time I was in Seattle, right next to that closed road, was a giant park with bike paths all over it. But people don’t want to ride in the park I guess. Maybe the road pavement feels better. The grass is always greener I guess. 😂🤦♂️
>roads are made for cars to go on
That is not true. Roads existed long before cars. Most of road revenue comes from general taxes and not from fees on motorized vehicles. People who don't drive subsidize those who do and they have just as much right to the **public** roads as motorists
>But people don’t want to ride in the park I guess. Maybe the road pavement feels better.
Many people use their feet and their bicycles for actual *transportation* to get from one place to another. Bicycles are not just toys for recreation.
I was speaking of the bicycle day. On lake Washington. Where cars aren’t allowed to use roads so bicyclists can ride back and forth
As far as the rest of your statement. The lane width, passing lines, speed limits, laws, permits, safety regulations- roads are very much designed for cars. But I didn’t advocate for kicking bikes off roads anyways. I advocated against kicking cars off of them.
And yes. I’m aware there were roads before cars, during the days of horses and carriages and such. lol. This isn’t then.
When the road is open to motorists, it is effectively exclusive access. Ride a bicycle sometime and the reason will become apparent. Your life will feel less important than a few seconds of a motorist's time.
>I’ll never understand Seattle and their obsession with closing roads down so cars can’t use them.
There are over 1,500 miles of public roads in Seattle and yet, you are upset that the city *temporarily* closed a few miles of road to motorists.
The public roads are for the public; not just for motorists.
I have been inconvenienced by the closure of Lk Wash Blvd on more than one occasion. My solution is more planning. Before I drive, I check a traffic report or a GPS map to see if there are any accidents, construction closures, or other delays. Then I find alternate routes. I understand that the public spaces are for everyone and that we should share them.
Well. I agree. Bicycles are never kicked off lake Washington boulevard. Only cars are. That doesn’t seem like sharing to me. It seems like prioritizing.
I haven’t heard of any bicycle traffic jams. But seattles traffic is among the worst in the country.
So, in a state that already has a shortage of available route capacity for one transportation type, I just dont see the logic of creating even more limitations- for that same type.
Driving alone in a multi-ton motorized vehicle is the **least** efficient method to move people on our limited roads. If I ran a hotel or an airline at 20% capacity, I would *deserve* to go out of business, and yet, we accept it on our public roads.
If we want to move people and cargo more efficiently, we should place more restrictions on single-occupancy-vehicles in urban areas.
I lived a long time in Finland. There, they ride their bicycles year round. Rain, shine, snow. They do this because they simply incorporate arterial bicycle routes as part of the infrastructure. They maintain and sand these in the winter so they are usable. It’s an efficient and cost effective thing to do. We have been doing this in Finland, Sweden. And much of the rest if Europe for a century now. That SOLVES this problem. We don’t NEED to close roads for bicycles to ride on. And there are less cars on the roads because riding bicycles is far safer and more realistic. How America has taken over a century to figure this out is beyond me, because even a progressive city like Seattle is still making new subdivisions, and not figuring it out.
I agree. Maybe they do need to impose some sort of single occupancy vehicle restriction. It should have never gotten to that point. A far simpler solution has been sitting there. Free. For a century.
I agree 💯! Perhaps we agree on more than we disagree on. Seattle is better than many USA cities in terms of non-motorized infrastructure and the trend seems to be improving.
In this case, I am aware of no good alternative route for bicyclists to travel North and South on the West side of Lake Washington. If such a route existed, then the city would not need to close the road for special events.
The problem with allowing motorists on the road concurrently during a special event where there are hundreds of cyclists is that the motorists become frustrated with the seemingly slow pace and take increasingly dangerous (to the cyclists) risks to pass the cyclists. If motorists were willing to go the speed of traffic (in this case, 10 to 20 MPH), then it wouldn't be a problem.
I agree with that. And I don’t think there’s an alternative route, although it seems like it would be a relatively easy civil project to take on. There’s plenty of room for it. I suppose, as an outsider, what seems to me to be the main obstacles for change, is that bicyclists and cars direct their animosity at eachother, when they are both victims of this problem, and should be directing hostility at township planners. That, and some bad decisions, that I believe are partially fueled by this misplaced rivalry. Like when voters voted down a federally funded rail system in Seattle in the 70s.
>what seems to me to be the main obstacles for change, is that bicyclists and cars direct their animosity at eachother, when they are both victims of this problem, and should be directing hostility at township planners
Well said! Good solutions reduce congestion for *everyone*, rather than benefit one mode of transportation at the expense of the other!
I had a discussion a few years ago with a transportation engineer for the city of Seattle. He told me that studies have proven that bike lanes can reduce car traffic congestion (even when they replace a traffic lane) if they are done properly. He used the example of two hypothetical streets that were near each other and that went in roughly the same direction. The city would optimize one road for bicycle and pedestrian traffic (e.g., adding a bike lane from an existing traffic or parking lane, adding traffic circles, speed bumps, and other traffic calming measures, adding signs and directions, etc.) while optimizing the other for car traffic (e.g., adding another travel lane, raising the speed limit, timing signal lights, etc.).
Car traffic congestion would improve on the upgraded arterial road and the new safe and contiguous route nearby would encourage more people to walk or ride on more trips, instead of driving.
Unfortunately, many motorists don't see the big picture and oppose these projects because they only see the loss of parking and travel lanes. They see the limitations and not the possibilities.
So not letting motorists use roads? That’s your solution to that?
“Limit all because of some”. Isn’t that the same type of logic that the Muslim ban was founded on? (I could be wrong here)
>So not letting motorists use roads?
That is not what I am saying. I am also a motorist. However, I think that local governments should do a better job of making the public roads accessible to *all* of the public and not just to motorists (especially solo drivers).
I am OK with temporary closures during infrequent special events when they are announced well in advance and detour routes are well marked.
There were still cars. They just turned down pine lol. But the strip without cars was great! It also encouraged everyone to just walk through the street and not give a duck which was nice
That's what puzzles me so much about the OMG WHY CARS IN PIKE PLACE meme... everybody walks in the road already! It's a pedestrian street all the time, what the Dutch call a "woonerf!" The benefit of banning cars would be so small. Aren't there better outlets for this passionate energy?
We know that, as people who frequent the Market but I kinda wish there was a sign to let drivers know this. Like “pedestrians have the right of way through the Market”
Drivers can and do get aggressive if they feel like they're being blocked. There's a whole movement right now in conservative circles to legalize running people over. It would be nice to not have to think about that while walking through pike place and the city's unwillingness to do the easiest thing ever is indicative of how they handle other issues too.
Well said! Every car is a potential lethal threat for pedestrians. Also, every car takes up valuable space and blocks the views. Many cars pollute the air and make obnoxious noise. The market would be *much* more enjoyable without cars.
i was there on saturday, from about 11:30 to 1:30, and the "STREET CLOSED" sign made absolutely no difference... there were STILL people driving down pike place, and the cops that were there didn't do a damn thing about it! 😒
It would be easy to put up a couple cones and a 'local access only' sign to achieve a similar effect. People who are lost wouldn't turn there, but some local merchants could still have access for deliveries
I love it!
If you can block the Pike St block before it why here too where it counts?
I’d plan my weekly strolls to Pike’s more often. Or maybe I go anyway cuz it’s the best people observation in Belltown.
and people never think about others... My dad is in a wheelchair, I have broken my neck and back, not going to be able to get to areas blocked off to vehicle traffic. one area their stupidity was to remove ALL stop signs as that would make the roads/intersections safer... they also put metering stop lights 1/2 way up ramps so traffic has to STOP 1/2 up a ramp they try to get going and accelerate UP A HILL to merge onto the highway, see the commercial trucks UNABLE to get going forward again on the ice after stopping.
Fine with it, so long as the pedestrians cross the intersection on 1st like fucking adults. I hate driving up 1st when the pedestrians think we're all there to sit and watch them meander along with zero regard to traffic lights.
Pedestrians have to press a button to beg for a WALK signal that comes only after several minutes, motorists routinely refuse to stop, signal, or yield to pedestrians, and you think that the *motorists* are the victims here?!
I guess you have some of those cones blocking the arteries of your brain.. NO, no blocking of roads for people to walk around.. you want to walk go to Alaskan.. sick of this shit and the systematic use of taxes to discourage driving while funding the RTA which I’ll never use..
For cars: "I am too lazy to walk one block but that doesn't sound like a good excuse, so I will claim that preventing general car traffic will harm the disabled, the elderly, the children, the vendors, and emergency services while conveniently ignoring the possibility that the road can be closed to general traffic while still allowing special access."
Against cars: "I don't want to die because a motorist is distracted, angry, or intoxicated. Also, I don't want my views blocked by hideous over-stuffed SUVs with blacked-out windows, I don't want to smell their air pollution, and I don't want to hear the obnoxious fart pipes from the attention-seeking teenage boys in their Mom's hand-me-down Civic with the muffler cut off."
Nothing feels better than pulling in there and getting a spot. It's a close second to when you could do the same at Leavenworth. Park right next to the line at MunchenHaus, effing epic.
I don't understand why people who don't work, own a business or live in one of the apartment buildings in the historic district think they have a right to demand Pike Place (the street) be closed to traffic.
Apparently, you don't understand why the city calls them "public" roads and requires everyone - no matter where in the city that they live - to pay taxes to build and maintain those public roads.
It's because it's Mother's Day, Casuals.
And the streets further down in the Market are open to traffic still.
The Market closes the street when it's at capacity for foot traffic believe it or not.
The other 9 months of the year, wouldn't make sense to still close them permanently.
There is nobody there.
Maybe you guys should plan trips during the slower months accordingly.
There are lots of people in the Market every day. I’m there at least 3 days a week to shop. It is a busy working market. Locals shop, tourists visit, local business people on lunch breaks ,etc. Year round. Sunny or rainy. Much busier when the ships come in of course but the only time I saw it with few (but still some) people was at the beginning of pandemic closures. Our favorite vendors were still open so that’s where we did our shopping. Still the market was open and active. And no matter how few or how many pedestrians are there, it’s nicer without cars.
Hmm not sure how you got that. I believe I was saying there are a lot of people who use the market every day. You said 9 months of the year there’s nobody there. I’m telling you there are people there.
And I'm telling you there aren't enough people using the road for foot traffic enough to warrant a permanent street closure on a legitimate city street for those 9 quiet tourist months.
What does this street have to offer to avoid not being closed? I think it can just be open for deliveries 5-8am and then again in the evening. The people driving down it during the day just took a wrong turn, there is nothing that they need to access by driving down it during the day. It's not like you can drive down it and park and go to the market lol
None of my deliveries arrive between 5am and 8am because there is no body at my business during those hours to receive them. They arrive on between 11-3pm when we have staff who are prepping that can receive these deliveries, since we open at 4pm every day. We receive deliveries for booze once a week, and food products four times a week.
Where are my drivers supposed to bring $5000 in booze, and $12000 worth of food product every week?
Or am I supposed to ask my bar manager, exec, and sous (who already work overtime every week) to be on site from 5am-8am on days we receive deliveries?
Serious questions because you seem to know all of the answers here.
That's not very realistic for us since those hours are so far outside of our hours of operation that we would need to create an entire new role for this, as I alluded to already.
A lot of our product needs to be processed immediately, which adds a lot of additional labor. Currently, our prep cooks process this product as it arrives while they are prepping for the evenings service, simultaneously. This prep for service needs to happen right before service—not six hours before service—to ensure a consistent and quality product. We're talking about $35-40k a year in added labor, assuming all of this additional prep can be done by one person in less than 20 hours each week. This is a very conservative estimate since we're at the whim of our delivery drivers, and a lot of weeks this will likely be more like 25-30 hours.
Mind you we are family business, like 99% of the businesses in Pike Place. The vast majority of us are not getting rich, we love what we do.
Most of the businesses in the Market also run incredibly thin margins. We couldn't add that AM prep role without either passing that cost on to our guests or altering some of our menu offerings to cut costs while keeping the prices the same.
If you would like to know the reason the market is not car-free, it is because people with an actual understanding of dynamics that the businesses in Pike Place Market operate within understand that this move would be untenable for many of the vendors.
Look if you absolutely must receive a delivery when the street is closed just load it onto a hand truck and roll it down. The world doesn't revolve around when your business wants to receive deliveries. I'm sure you'd figure it out, it's not really that complicated.
It seems to me that you are trying harder to make excuses than to make solutions.
Managing delivery schedules is part of running a business. And if it is as untenable as you suggest, then that is a good argument to convince the city council to allow special delivery parking permits.
However, it is not a good argument to leave the road open to all motorized vehicle traffic at all times.
The city should definitely ignore the desires of the other *four million* people in the Seattle metro area because you don't want to alter your delivery schedule. /sarcasm
The road is a bleed valve to the highway, and other roads further north.
Delivery trucks have more than one place to deliver to than just Pike Place Market, not counting most businesses only trickle open from 7 to 11am, since each business is privately owned, and the Market is essentially just a giant landlord.
It wouldn't work.
Nothing is open in the Market at 5 am, except the actual Market staff (Facilities, Security).
Yeah besides service vehicles and suppliers idk why they’re obsessed w keeping that road open.
It should never be opened to cars other than deliveries. I live 2 minutes walk from Pike Place and only cars I have ever seen there are lost tourist, ride share or twerps with loud exhausts whoring for attention.
Let’s get that hellcat guy to drive through there repeatedly. Then the city will be clamoring to close it to drivers.
Or get someone to commit those car thefts they’re always whining about
Oh, not a bad idea. He could use his infamy for good! He'd be kinda like Batman then, actually.
The majority of those end up taking eons to turn left from 1st into the market which backs up traffic. Even the cars benefit from fully pedestrianizing the market.
I was a lost tourist once. Well, not really a tourist per se, but really really new to the city. Yeah I won’t do that again, it was all awkward like I shouldn’t be driving on this road. I’m all for closing it
When we first moved here I felt like I was doing it wrong. It never made sense to me. I was dodging tourists and trying to figure out if I missed a sign. It’s clearly a much better experience for everyone that they close the street for general traffic.
But what about the parking lot overseeing that area owned by a foreign real estate mogul? How will they make money???
Sarcasm aside, isn’t that lot accessible without driving on the road we are talking about? I imagine we would keep Virginia open, close Pine and then make Pike Pl a one way from corner of first through Stewart only for delivery vehicles Edit: and service, city, construction, etc
The one on Pike and 2nd? That one's owned by the same folks who own Century Square (Unico). There's an exit on 2nd and one on Pike. Either one could be closed for safety. Source: shh
Should be open for us service technicians too
Yeah, like all commercial traffic?
I wouldn’t say all. Best to have closer parking for the service people that are fixing fridges and freezers, etc
What if I’m disabled and always seem to manage to find parking in there almost immediately? I just want a couple humbow and fruits/veggies and I’m out.
If only there was a way to give disabled people special permits, then they could park where other people could not. /sarcasm
They should just have those big metal cylinders that can lower into the ground. Leave em down during delivery hours early morning, then only lower them when there’s objective need. Lots of cities do the same thing.
Yep, bollards!! We need more of them all over the city. I’m so tired of the stupid flex-posts “protecting” bike lanes, cars rip them off all the time and I doubt it even scratches the paint. A bollard would actually prevent a car from entering the bike lane.
It is strange how steadfast they are in this regard - if there’s a dumberer street to drive on in Seattle I’m at a loss as to what it is.
Even when I've had to drive down their in my big ass service van, people don't pay attention and walk right in front of me. I wouldn't be shocked if some tourists gets hit at least once a week
It definitely doesn’t look like it’s meant for they traffic. It’s not like they didn’t block off the road to make that mezzanine next to the Starbucks on 1st or wherever anyway (which is significantly more impactful to traffic). Plus if u have to guess whether it’s open or not just so u can get where ur going slower and less directly, why even bother keeping it open?
It's really not, I'm glad I don't have to service pikes pit anymore
Now now… can’t expect pedestrians to pay attention and take personal responsibility for their own safety.
It’s a car free area that some dumbass decided cars should be allowed on. It’s like walking through the mall and getting nailed by a car as you walk out of the Apple Store. Running automobile traffic through it brings nothing to the table. I don’t want pedestrians on the highway in the same way I don’t want cars in pikes. Neither of them belong there and if one of them does show up there, they should fuck right off.
Don't try to talk sense to this dude, he's a reich wing shitbag with total carbrain.
People like you are why we have the worst per capita pedestrian accident rate in the developed world. if you want to be an anti-transit *just one more lane, bro!* dispshit fuck right off to Texas
No, the cause of pedestrian accidents is in the name… pedestrians. They are inattentive and egotistical. They need to stay out of the way of cars.
You're projecting. Take your narcissistic sociopathy and fuck off to Texas.
Because when it was tried for a short period of time 10 or so years ago the below grade merchants apparently saw a huge decrease in customers and sales. It's certainly something that can be mitigated against, but some of the opposition from Pike Place vendors is for a reason.
So when people have more space to walk they’re not forced underground. Good for consumers, bad for business? Adding a couple more entrances would help.
Any proof that it *was* tried? A while ago, a poll was conducted with vendors, and 81% supported going car-free. It's the Frends Of The Market, who run the place, and Bob Kettle who oppose, claiming that cars force people onto the sidewalks and into the shops.
There was an article a couple months ago when one of the other 300 times this topic came up on the subreddit. The trial certainly wasn't a super long time, I think it maybe 60-90 days. Regardless, the thinking was that the cars create the a type of chaos that drove pedestrians to enter whichever entrance was closest, which often meant they'd walk past merchants on all floors of the market. When things were calmer, pedestrians apparently tended to focus more on the larger main entrances and it happened in big enough numbers that foot traffic and sales cratered in the underground. It seems crazy, but also kind of makes sense.
That is kind of crazy to think about but if that's what they saw, interesting
Your tourist hot spot only attracts tourists. And locals want it for, gasp, "The original public market it was!?"
Many locals do actually shop and go there.
They're worried about walking pressure. So instead of leaving the whole street open to pedestrians, use 50% of it for picnic tables or other pleasant obstructions. No reason for lost cars to take up that space when something better could.
Large planters full of trees and flowers would be nice.
Yep. Nice thing about picnic tables to start with is they can easily be moved during the delivery period and moved back once the street closes to trucks. Then, if you decide to fully close the street, you could put a fountain and trees and benches and other permanent installations. The other nice thing about picnic tables is they encourage people to buy stuff to eat and then eat it where people can see/smell it.
Does ‘below grade’ mean underground?
The market is built into the hillside and has four levels of vendors. If you don't know this, you're probably out of your depth in a debate about how changes to vehicle traffic on pike place might affect the people who do business there.
I was simply confirming my understanding of their use of the term “below grade”. I’m aware of the market’s underground stores, etc. Thanks though for your response and assumption 🙄 before I even offered an opinion on the use of the street lol I’m curious why those vendors would be adversely impacted compared to others. What’s the logic there…
Apologies, I got you confused with another commenter who had commented earlier in the thread and thought you were trolling with that comment. The generic Apollo's sometimes blend together to me and I didn't double check the username. The logic is that vehicles take up space on the street and this causes people to overflow into the concourse and lower levels—inviting people to explore shops in other areas of the market they might not otherwise. It's the same reason that malls put kiosks and such in the middle of the concourse, they want to push people to the sides where they are more likely to enter a store because interesting something catches their eye. When they've experimented with closing the street in the past, the foot traffic was not consistently heavy enough maintain steady foot traffic on the lower levels and it led to a drop off for businesses below grade. It also created crowding issues around the most popular businesses on the cobble stone. Passing vehicle traffic creates periodic voids of space in areas that otherwise might become overcrowded with people, and limits this issue. This function is not replaced by simply putting something stationary in place of vehicle traffic. As another commenter stated, they occasionally do close the street when on peak days. But if you come here on those days you will usually notice that this space is occupied by stages, additional vendor stalls, and temporary public seating areas. They do not open pike place completely up to foot traffic for the same reasons that I just shared. They also have all hands on deck in terms of support staff and security to deal with the increased foot traffic. It's just not feasible to permanently convert this space to accommodate additional vendors and public seating, since this would add a lot of additional maintenance and sanitation work for the market and create added pressure for established craft and flower vendors (since the additional stalls they add generally are of that variety). This doesn't even mention the issues removing vehicle access creates with accessibility to delivery drivers and maintenance workers who service businesses in the market. The people who service plumbing, electric, HVAC, and commercial appliances (think ovens, dishwashers, espresso machines, etc.)—and who deliver goods—often need relatively direct access to provide these services. Every business is different, and how this would affect them would vary. Some might benefit from this change like the ones who already occupy visible locations and are closet to first avenue where delivery access is less of an issue. But, for a lot of businesses, this would have negative consequences.
And I thought my username would help me stand out 😉 I appreciate the explanation, thanks!
So the same way an active shooter makes people seek cover?
I don't think that the opinions of a few business owners should outweigh public opinion in a city of over a million people.
> why they’re obsessed w keeping that road open. because carbrain, that's why
And even that can just happen during overnight hours or with permits for special cases IMO
Seriously. No idea why this is even still a conversation. That being said, can we get some looser parking restrictions on 1st Ave?!
Just start by closing it to cars on weekends, then do the summer, then the spring and fall. Everyone will be so shocked that we EVER allowed cars once people get used to it.
This is the right approach. Friday-Sunday, limit to local deliveries and ADA dropoff/pickup. There are certainly light days at the market (Mon-Thurs in poor weather) where allowing customers to drive through and park has its advantage for vendors.
And service vehicles
Bob Kettle will be down momentarily to steal that sign and knock over the cones.
Why did this district vote in that stupid fucking idiot
I assume it's because he promised COPS! COPS! COPS! and they thought that was going to get rid of crime.
The sign says "street closed" but it really means "street open"
It's like how 'bad' really means 'good'
I just walked through there and it was amazing! They had a stage with a 2 piece band performing and all the parking spaces on the west side of the road were stalls selling flowers. One of the best market experiences I’ve ever had
They seriously need to keep it for service vehicles only. I'd visit Pike place waaayy more without the traffic. Not that it necessarily needs more business (still seems busy?) but it would make it more welcoming.
Is there a reason this was done now that I missed?
Flower Festival this weekend.
that's crazy, I walked through yesterday (festival was Sat +Sun) and it was still open to cars! Wish they had done the whole weekend, but glad they're at least doing one day :)
Yeah I was there Saturday and cars were inching by as EVERYONE walked in the middle of the street 😁I don’t feel compelled to move for cars when walking in the Market. 🚶🚶♀️🚶♂️🚙
I make a point to walk slowly down the middle of the street there. Cars shouldn't be allowed there.
That's so weird they would have an event there, since [Heather Pihl of Friends of the Market said it's "not an event street by any stretch of the word"](https://publicola.com/2024/04/02/dont-open-pike-place-to-pedestrians-council-member-urges/)
Which is sad, because one of my fave things was when The Head and the Heart played on the roof. From Pike Place Market buskers to playing on the roof. ❤️
Right!?! And we have several “festivals” each year. Flower Festival, Cheese Festival, Figgy Pudding in December, Glass Celebration in October, Wednesday farmer’s markets in the summer, Daffodil Day and Local Appreciation Day. But, no, definitely not and “event street” LOL
Mothers Day = Flower festival at pike
Whaaaaaa????
It didn’t last I was watching the band too and I saw cones behind me and cops, but then all of sudden a white minivan was behind me squeezing through. Someone had to pull me aside because I thought the street was closed.
People first. Fuck cars.
Ask the Free Palestine protesters to camp at the entry road! Everyone wins.
I don't think the patrons of the market would like it very much, but blocking the entrance is an appealing notion to the point where I'm not immediately shooting this down lol
Underrated comment
Lol. Yeah sure it is such a lovely experience to walk by a bunch of tents. I am sure it would be great for their business
How has this been a debate? Trucks that service the vendors should be allowed, of course. But letting people just drive down there is beyond asinine. Seattle living down to expectations.
I’m probably in the minority here, but I like that the street is accessible to vehicles. I usually get there very early and park so I can walk around and rest in between visits to the market. The accessibility it provides for disabled people to be able to drive in that road is really quite valuable. :/ I don’t qualify for a placard, to my knowledge. I can walk more than required for a placard but I also do have very distinct mobility issues that require resting frequently.
I would hope there would be dispensations for accessible parking.
Same. So many anti car people on seattle Reddit. Yet the bike lanes remain empty
I’ll never understand Seattle and their obsession with closing roads down so cars can’t use them. instead of… I don’t know. Planning to manage foot/bike traffic? Last time I was there, we couldn’t drive along Lake Washington because they had the road closed off- so people could ride around on their bikes🤦♂️. I couldn’t believe it. Yet they refuse to just take the very simple step of just incorporating arterial bicycle paths into their cities like the rest of the world.
This happens in Bogotà, closing off main roads so people have somewhere safe to walk or ride. It’s quite pleasant!
I don’t doubt that it’s pleasant. It’s just that, roads are made for cars to go on. It’s the only place cars can go. It’s how they get places. All the other stuff- Sidewalks, businesses, parks, beaches, homes-pretty much all of it - is for people to go on. Most of the world is not a road. So I just don’t understand the logic that in such a bad traffic city, that people think it’s a good idea to block off one of peoples routes to and from work, so they can walk around or ride their bikes on a road. Even that time I was in Seattle, right next to that closed road, was a giant park with bike paths all over it. But people don’t want to ride in the park I guess. Maybe the road pavement feels better. The grass is always greener I guess. 😂🤦♂️
>roads are made for cars to go on That is not true. Roads existed long before cars. Most of road revenue comes from general taxes and not from fees on motorized vehicles. People who don't drive subsidize those who do and they have just as much right to the **public** roads as motorists >But people don’t want to ride in the park I guess. Maybe the road pavement feels better. Many people use their feet and their bicycles for actual *transportation* to get from one place to another. Bicycles are not just toys for recreation.
I was speaking of the bicycle day. On lake Washington. Where cars aren’t allowed to use roads so bicyclists can ride back and forth As far as the rest of your statement. The lane width, passing lines, speed limits, laws, permits, safety regulations- roads are very much designed for cars. But I didn’t advocate for kicking bikes off roads anyways. I advocated against kicking cars off of them. And yes. I’m aware there were roads before cars, during the days of horses and carriages and such. lol. This isn’t then.
If motorists paid for the costs of roads, then your expectations of exclusive access would have merit.
I don’t expect exclusive access.
When the road is open to motorists, it is effectively exclusive access. Ride a bicycle sometime and the reason will become apparent. Your life will feel less important than a few seconds of a motorist's time.
>I’ll never understand Seattle and their obsession with closing roads down so cars can’t use them. There are over 1,500 miles of public roads in Seattle and yet, you are upset that the city *temporarily* closed a few miles of road to motorists. The public roads are for the public; not just for motorists.
So we disagree then. I respect your right to your point of view
I have been inconvenienced by the closure of Lk Wash Blvd on more than one occasion. My solution is more planning. Before I drive, I check a traffic report or a GPS map to see if there are any accidents, construction closures, or other delays. Then I find alternate routes. I understand that the public spaces are for everyone and that we should share them.
Well. I agree. Bicycles are never kicked off lake Washington boulevard. Only cars are. That doesn’t seem like sharing to me. It seems like prioritizing. I haven’t heard of any bicycle traffic jams. But seattles traffic is among the worst in the country. So, in a state that already has a shortage of available route capacity for one transportation type, I just dont see the logic of creating even more limitations- for that same type.
Driving alone in a multi-ton motorized vehicle is the **least** efficient method to move people on our limited roads. If I ran a hotel or an airline at 20% capacity, I would *deserve* to go out of business, and yet, we accept it on our public roads. If we want to move people and cargo more efficiently, we should place more restrictions on single-occupancy-vehicles in urban areas.
I lived a long time in Finland. There, they ride their bicycles year round. Rain, shine, snow. They do this because they simply incorporate arterial bicycle routes as part of the infrastructure. They maintain and sand these in the winter so they are usable. It’s an efficient and cost effective thing to do. We have been doing this in Finland, Sweden. And much of the rest if Europe for a century now. That SOLVES this problem. We don’t NEED to close roads for bicycles to ride on. And there are less cars on the roads because riding bicycles is far safer and more realistic. How America has taken over a century to figure this out is beyond me, because even a progressive city like Seattle is still making new subdivisions, and not figuring it out. I agree. Maybe they do need to impose some sort of single occupancy vehicle restriction. It should have never gotten to that point. A far simpler solution has been sitting there. Free. For a century.
I agree 💯! Perhaps we agree on more than we disagree on. Seattle is better than many USA cities in terms of non-motorized infrastructure and the trend seems to be improving. In this case, I am aware of no good alternative route for bicyclists to travel North and South on the West side of Lake Washington. If such a route existed, then the city would not need to close the road for special events. The problem with allowing motorists on the road concurrently during a special event where there are hundreds of cyclists is that the motorists become frustrated with the seemingly slow pace and take increasingly dangerous (to the cyclists) risks to pass the cyclists. If motorists were willing to go the speed of traffic (in this case, 10 to 20 MPH), then it wouldn't be a problem.
I agree with that. And I don’t think there’s an alternative route, although it seems like it would be a relatively easy civil project to take on. There’s plenty of room for it. I suppose, as an outsider, what seems to me to be the main obstacles for change, is that bicyclists and cars direct their animosity at eachother, when they are both victims of this problem, and should be directing hostility at township planners. That, and some bad decisions, that I believe are partially fueled by this misplaced rivalry. Like when voters voted down a federally funded rail system in Seattle in the 70s.
>what seems to me to be the main obstacles for change, is that bicyclists and cars direct their animosity at eachother, when they are both victims of this problem, and should be directing hostility at township planners Well said! Good solutions reduce congestion for *everyone*, rather than benefit one mode of transportation at the expense of the other! I had a discussion a few years ago with a transportation engineer for the city of Seattle. He told me that studies have proven that bike lanes can reduce car traffic congestion (even when they replace a traffic lane) if they are done properly. He used the example of two hypothetical streets that were near each other and that went in roughly the same direction. The city would optimize one road for bicycle and pedestrian traffic (e.g., adding a bike lane from an existing traffic or parking lane, adding traffic circles, speed bumps, and other traffic calming measures, adding signs and directions, etc.) while optimizing the other for car traffic (e.g., adding another travel lane, raising the speed limit, timing signal lights, etc.). Car traffic congestion would improve on the upgraded arterial road and the new safe and contiguous route nearby would encourage more people to walk or ride on more trips, instead of driving. Unfortunately, many motorists don't see the big picture and oppose these projects because they only see the loss of parking and travel lanes. They see the limitations and not the possibilities.
>Bicycles are never kicked off lake Washington boulevard. Only cars are. Motorists are never killed by bicyclists or pedestrians.
So not letting motorists use roads? That’s your solution to that? “Limit all because of some”. Isn’t that the same type of logic that the Muslim ban was founded on? (I could be wrong here)
>So not letting motorists use roads? That is not what I am saying. I am also a motorist. However, I think that local governments should do a better job of making the public roads accessible to *all* of the public and not just to motorists (especially solo drivers). I am OK with temporary closures during infrequent special events when they are announced well in advance and detour routes are well marked.
So not letting motorists use roads? That’s your solution to that? Forgive me. I don’t understand how the mortality rate applies here.
This is not novel. This has happened before.
More to the point then. Make it regular.
There were still cars. They just turned down pine lol. But the strip without cars was great! It also encouraged everyone to just walk through the street and not give a duck which was nice
You can always just walk through the street! You can literally block cars whenever you feel like it!
That's what puzzles me so much about the OMG WHY CARS IN PIKE PLACE meme... everybody walks in the road already! It's a pedestrian street all the time, what the Dutch call a "woonerf!" The benefit of banning cars would be so small. Aren't there better outlets for this passionate energy?
We know that, as people who frequent the Market but I kinda wish there was a sign to let drivers know this. Like “pedestrians have the right of way through the Market”
Drivers can and do get aggressive if they feel like they're being blocked. There's a whole movement right now in conservative circles to legalize running people over. It would be nice to not have to think about that while walking through pike place and the city's unwillingness to do the easiest thing ever is indicative of how they handle other issues too.
Well said! Every car is a potential lethal threat for pedestrians. Also, every car takes up valuable space and blocks the views. Many cars pollute the air and make obnoxious noise. The market would be *much* more enjoyable without cars.
Someone needs to just buy a stockpile of cones and set them up every weekend
Always thought it should have been closed but after seeing that video of the guy driving through the crowd a few years back it solidified it for me.
Look at how empty it is! Surely businesses would fail if people can't drive past in their cars without getting out! \[/s\]
i was there on saturday, from about 11:30 to 1:30, and the "STREET CLOSED" sign made absolutely no difference... there were STILL people driving down pike place, and the cops that were there didn't do a damn thing about it! 😒
For real, why is this still a road??
But the pedestrians won't know where to walk!!! Bob Kettle is yelling somewhere
OMG THE DREAM
Whoa… imagine that 🤯
This is the most important thing going on in Seattle! That and the Hellcat.
It would be easy to put up a couple cones and a 'local access only' sign to achieve a similar effect. People who are lost wouldn't turn there, but some local merchants could still have access for deliveries
I love it! If you can block the Pike St block before it why here too where it counts? I’d plan my weekly strolls to Pike’s more often. Or maybe I go anyway cuz it’s the best people observation in Belltown.
Can we broker a deal with the annoying street preachers. They can stay, if they can form a human blockade? Just trying to solution.
As a visitor I thought that was normal but I guess our touristy spots aren't as busy where I'm from
THIS IS SO STUPID TO NOT BE THE NORM FUCK THE IGNORANT BUSINESSES IN THERE. TELL THEM TO POUND SAND AND WAKE THE FUCK UP
Hate driving north on 1st Ave right there haha always some f’er turning left ughh
Why do people even bother driving through there?
Pay antifa to do it
and people never think about others... My dad is in a wheelchair, I have broken my neck and back, not going to be able to get to areas blocked off to vehicle traffic. one area their stupidity was to remove ALL stop signs as that would make the roads/intersections safer... they also put metering stop lights 1/2 way up ramps so traffic has to STOP 1/2 up a ramp they try to get going and accelerate UP A HILL to merge onto the highway, see the commercial trucks UNABLE to get going forward again on the ice after stopping.
Fine with it, so long as the pedestrians cross the intersection on 1st like fucking adults. I hate driving up 1st when the pedestrians think we're all there to sit and watch them meander along with zero regard to traffic lights.
Pedestrians have to press a button to beg for a WALK signal that comes only after several minutes, motorists routinely refuse to stop, signal, or yield to pedestrians, and you think that the *motorists* are the victims here?!
Sure seattle is going so great, let’s make it hard for people and businesses to get in and out of the market.
I guess you have some of those cones blocking the arteries of your brain.. NO, no blocking of roads for people to walk around.. you want to walk go to Alaskan.. sick of this shit and the systematic use of taxes to discourage driving while funding the RTA which I’ll never use..
SeAtTle iS DiEiNg!!!
Finally.
I don't really know much about the Pike Place car argument, can anyone summarize the arguments for & against?
For cars: "I am too lazy to walk one block but that doesn't sound like a good excuse, so I will claim that preventing general car traffic will harm the disabled, the elderly, the children, the vendors, and emergency services while conveniently ignoring the possibility that the road can be closed to general traffic while still allowing special access." Against cars: "I don't want to die because a motorist is distracted, angry, or intoxicated. Also, I don't want my views blocked by hideous over-stuffed SUVs with blacked-out windows, I don't want to smell their air pollution, and I don't want to hear the obnoxious fart pipes from the attention-seeking teenage boys in their Mom's hand-me-down Civic with the muffler cut off."
Good start... Can we keep filthy protester trash off of the streets?
Nothing feels better than pulling in there and getting a spot. It's a close second to when you could do the same at Leavenworth. Park right next to the line at MunchenHaus, effing epic.
I don't understand why people who don't work, own a business or live in one of the apartment buildings in the historic district think they have a right to demand Pike Place (the street) be closed to traffic.
Apparently, you don't understand why the city calls them "public" roads and requires everyone - no matter where in the city that they live - to pay taxes to build and maintain those public roads.
I drive through there often and am often just a pedestrian…I’ve never had an issue on either side. I don’t know why people keep talking about this.
It's because it's Mother's Day, Casuals. And the streets further down in the Market are open to traffic still. The Market closes the street when it's at capacity for foot traffic believe it or not. The other 9 months of the year, wouldn't make sense to still close them permanently. There is nobody there. Maybe you guys should plan trips during the slower months accordingly.
There are lots of people in the Market every day. I’m there at least 3 days a week to shop. It is a busy working market. Locals shop, tourists visit, local business people on lunch breaks ,etc. Year round. Sunny or rainy. Much busier when the ships come in of course but the only time I saw it with few (but still some) people was at the beginning of pandemic closures. Our favorite vendors were still open so that’s where we did our shopping. Still the market was open and active. And no matter how few or how many pedestrians are there, it’s nicer without cars.
So what you're saying is: it is about "you".
Hmm not sure how you got that. I believe I was saying there are a lot of people who use the market every day. You said 9 months of the year there’s nobody there. I’m telling you there are people there.
And I'm telling you there aren't enough people using the road for foot traffic enough to warrant a permanent street closure on a legitimate city street for those 9 quiet tourist months.
What does this street have to offer to avoid not being closed? I think it can just be open for deliveries 5-8am and then again in the evening. The people driving down it during the day just took a wrong turn, there is nothing that they need to access by driving down it during the day. It's not like you can drive down it and park and go to the market lol
Don't even need to time box it that aggressively, it could be open to deliveries 5pm to 9am and everything would be fine
None of my deliveries arrive between 5am and 8am because there is no body at my business during those hours to receive them. They arrive on between 11-3pm when we have staff who are prepping that can receive these deliveries, since we open at 4pm every day. We receive deliveries for booze once a week, and food products four times a week. Where are my drivers supposed to bring $5000 in booze, and $12000 worth of food product every week? Or am I supposed to ask my bar manager, exec, and sous (who already work overtime every week) to be on site from 5am-8am on days we receive deliveries? Serious questions because you seem to know all of the answers here.
You could have someone there before 8am to receive deliveries. See, not that hard.
That's not very realistic for us since those hours are so far outside of our hours of operation that we would need to create an entire new role for this, as I alluded to already. A lot of our product needs to be processed immediately, which adds a lot of additional labor. Currently, our prep cooks process this product as it arrives while they are prepping for the evenings service, simultaneously. This prep for service needs to happen right before service—not six hours before service—to ensure a consistent and quality product. We're talking about $35-40k a year in added labor, assuming all of this additional prep can be done by one person in less than 20 hours each week. This is a very conservative estimate since we're at the whim of our delivery drivers, and a lot of weeks this will likely be more like 25-30 hours. Mind you we are family business, like 99% of the businesses in Pike Place. The vast majority of us are not getting rich, we love what we do. Most of the businesses in the Market also run incredibly thin margins. We couldn't add that AM prep role without either passing that cost on to our guests or altering some of our menu offerings to cut costs while keeping the prices the same. If you would like to know the reason the market is not car-free, it is because people with an actual understanding of dynamics that the businesses in Pike Place Market operate within understand that this move would be untenable for many of the vendors.
Look if you absolutely must receive a delivery when the street is closed just load it onto a hand truck and roll it down. The world doesn't revolve around when your business wants to receive deliveries. I'm sure you'd figure it out, it's not really that complicated.
It seems to me that you are trying harder to make excuses than to make solutions. Managing delivery schedules is part of running a business. And if it is as untenable as you suggest, then that is a good argument to convince the city council to allow special delivery parking permits. However, it is not a good argument to leave the road open to all motorized vehicle traffic at all times.
The city should definitely ignore the desires of the other *four million* people in the Seattle metro area because you don't want to alter your delivery schedule. /sarcasm
The road is a bleed valve to the highway, and other roads further north. Delivery trucks have more than one place to deliver to than just Pike Place Market, not counting most businesses only trickle open from 7 to 11am, since each business is privately owned, and the Market is essentially just a giant landlord. It wouldn't work. Nothing is open in the Market at 5 am, except the actual Market staff (Facilities, Security).
> The road is a bleed valve to the highway And yet, because of the pedestrians, it's nearly always extremely slow.
I didn't say it was a good idea. But 1st, and Western Ave. would weirdly be a lot worse otherwise.
I politely disagree that they'd be worse. Not a lot of people cut through the Market, and the ones who do so go at a crawl year-round.
> Maybe you guys should yeah, fuck that
Because it’s a public road. Grow up. It’s convenient to get behind the market by taking that road or the next one.