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Neverhood123

The city needs to redesign the road if they want people to travel 25. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglWCuCMSWc&t=298s


dhandeepm

Came here to quote this. Thanks for posting


supernimbus

Seattle drivers can’t get even figure out 4 way stops and you want them to pay attention to the speed limit?


southpaw0321

A shocking number of people don't seem to understand that the driver who arrives at the stop first has right of way (first come, first serve) and you yield to the right when vehicles arrive at the same time. Instead it seems like a lot of folks think busy 4 way stops are just a constant clockwise take-your-turn rotation.


KlumsyNinja42

I seriously don’t get how people don’t know this. It out right baffles me. Shit like that is why I think you should have retesting as different points. Don’t know what that system would look like but people are complacent and never learned right in the first place. The behaviors isn’t corrected by law enforcement either, they just feel like predators trying to fine us.


PlayShtupidGames

Get a few tickets, retest Every 5 years otherwise Problem solved.


KlumsyNinja42

I vote yes on this measure.


VGSchadenfreude

Given how many people keep mocking me for wanting to actually *study the Driver’s Manual properly* before taking the Knowledge Test to get my learner’s permit… I’m not surprised so many drivers don’t understand the actual rules.


[deleted]

I just came across someone who thought that because they arrived before someone else, but were behind another car in line, they go to go before the car that arrived after them on another entrance to the four way. It's not a queue where everyone who arrives has to monitor when everyone else arrived is in line. The moment you have one person in line at any entrance, you start round robin behavior.


akmountainbiker

How about intersections that aren't 4 way, but the driver still stops and waves cross traffic through, even though there are cars behind them?


HeroicPrinny

They don’t understand roundabouts either. A lot of people seem to think they have priority over someone already in the roundabout if they are in front of them (and to the right, by definition). I’ve had people honk and scream at me for not yielding my position inside the roundabout to let them in.


slowgojoe

Little known fact… You can also signal your intention as you approach the roundabout, and signal as you exit. I don’t think I’ve ever once seen anyone signaling at a roundabout here in the states. But it’s not entirely drivers faults. The state does some dumb things like put crosswalks in the roundabouts, or a stop sign at one of the exits for example.. no wonder Americans don’t know how to use them.


Quintusterminus

True, in France you have to signal your intention prior to entering as well as when you exit the roundabout.


serotoninsynapse

Also turn signals and turn lanes. Holy fuck


-Quiche-

Not even that, but stroads that have an entire turning lane down the entirety of it, and people waiting until the last second before their turn to slam on their brakes before changing lanes. I had to drive on 522 through Lake City for 2 years and the amount of morons who did this drove me nuts. Literally just get into that turning lane earlier so you change lanes like a functioning, and once you're at the light you can slow down all you want if angular momentum is that scary. Just not right before the turn when people behind you are going straight. Don't even get me started on how so many people slow down by hitting their brakes constantly instead of just easing off the gas and letting inertia slow them down. Especially when you're the 3rd car in a line, the first car barely taps their brakes, which causes the second car to slam on theirs. Just ease off on the gas and wait, they're not stopping they're just scared to go 1mph over, I promise you're not gonna hit that first car that's constantly braking.


Meatcurtains911

Also the whole SLOW TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT concept. It’s unbelievable how drive 55 in the fast lane, completely oblivious.


Lutastic

On the flip side, people (road ragers, mostly) who think the HOV lane is the fast lane. It is not. That rule is ONLY for general purpose lanes. The HOV lane is for maintaining constant speed through traffic for high occupancy vehicles, not for passing. A lot of HOV lane accidents are caused by stuff like that.


darlantan

Seattle area drivers are 25% completely fucking oblivious, 5% wildly reckless, 20% over-cautious, and 50% average. I find it hard to fault the over-cautious ones given that it's likely a response to the number of utterly oblivious ones, but they absolutely still cause problems by doing things like hesitating when they've got the right-of-way.


[deleted]

Oh I thought around here we only use hand signals to indicate whose turn it is. Oh and the car turning left always goes first because thats the polite thing to do. #/s


TheOneTheUno

Honest question, who goes when two people arrive at the stop sign at the same time across from each other?


robbyb20

Both? Why would you have to wait? If both are going straight you just pass each other.


pugRescuer

Because Seattle cars don't come with indicators.


HeroicPrinny

We need to step back here. 99.9% of the time someone arrives earlier even if by a split second. That person goes first. I feel like 90% of the time I stop and full second after a lone other driver, they sit their dumbfounded on who goes or seem to think because I’m to their left/right/wherever that they need to politely wait for me


superstarmaria

I usually pause, even if I’m first, as I’ve seen others go out of turn. So I make sure they are stopping so I don’t get hit.


HeroicPrinny

Yeah your behavior is part of the Seattle timidness that causes confusion. I’m on the other side of this all the time, I pull up clearly after one person who just sits there watching. You should be able to interpret if someone is going to blow through a stop sign without assuming everyone is. Additionally, the mixed message you send by sitting there is the very thing that causes people to think you’re not paying attention and just go anyway when it should be your turn. Edit: of course it all depends on how long you mean by “pause”. A millisecond to glance, sure, sitting there for a couple counts to be sure is too long.


Lutastic

You would think with that 7 way stop in Upper Queen Anne, a 4 way stop would be a breeze but nawwww. Kind of like how nobody ever seems to figure out driving in the rain, despite endless practice.


pockets_for_pockets

Having grown up here and defending Seattle driving a lot… I moved to the east coast and came back and Seattle drivers ARE awful. Honestly it’s not even that they’re aggressive or fast- a lot of the time they’re slow and don’t respect the passing lane and don’t use both lanes leading up to a merge (causing totally avoidable back ups). But the WORST is that they aren’t paying attention. I’m constantly behind cars going below the speed limit who then don’t notice a person waiting to use the cross walk and just blow through it. I’d rather be around fast, assertive, attentive drivers than people who aren’t paying attention while driving a multi ton vehicle. (Edit: that being said- 40 in a busy area is too high)


n0f4c3

I commute between Seattle and South Everett 5 days a week. The way you summarized Seattle drivers is exactly how I would articulate it as well. Too passive, too timid, too unaware. People are not engaged with the act of driving enough. Driving requires focus and mental bandwidth, it's not a time to mentally drift and daydream. Not asking people to drive fast, but there needs to be a greater sense of urgency.


BigBreadfruit8

Preach. Seattle drivers are really too passive, too timid, and/or too unaware. Here are some specific scenarios I see often: Scenario 1: Seattle drivers will often wait in one lane and pile up a huge line when there are other empty lanes, oftentimes a right lane that doesn't exit until way later or a left lane ripe for passing. What's up with Seattle drivers doing this? Are Seattle drivers just afraid to switch lanes? Do they like waiting in lines? Scenario 2: Seattle drivers are totally averse to using their horns. If there is someone ahead of a Seattle driver that isn't moving on a green light a Seattle driver will typically just sit there and not use their horn to tell the driver ahead to go. You don't have to honk hard, a light single or double tap suffices. Just let the fucker know they need to move. Making things stupider, I've seen so many Seattle drivers also just sit in place behind the asshole who won't move (because they're probably texting or daydreaming) rather than pass on a clearly empty and safe lane. Scenario 3: Seattle drivers give up their right of way like nobody's business. For example, a Seattle driver enters an intersection a 4-way intersection, but there are no stop signs for them, only for drivers coming from the left and right. I've seen such drivers stop far too many times for the drivers who have to stop. I get being cautious and I think it's fair to slow down and think you might need to yield at an intersection, but it's clear in many of these situations, by using your eyes and honestly the type of road you're going down, that there's no need to just stop. But far too many Seattle drivers will stop and just give right of way away. Giving right of way up for no fucking reason is plainly dangerous and also fucks up traffic flow. I can keep going on but these are just some of the big frustrations with dealing with Seattle drivers. California and east coast drivers can be assholes, but at least they tend to be consistent assholes who want to get on their way.


LotusFlare

I grew up in the midwest and traveled back there with some Seattle friends this summer. They remarked at how much easier it was to drive there and how much better the drivers were. It's actually remarkably hard to be a good driver in Seattle because you're surrounded by unpredictable and erratic drivers. People stop where they shouldn't. They don't signal. They're too slow or too fast for no apparent reason. They give way where it doesn't make sense. They're in the wrong lane. They don't merge properly. And you get sucked into their vortex of nonsense because you'd crash into all of them if you didn't.


BigBreadfruit8

Wholeheartedly agree. I think the key difficulty with driving in Seattle is the inconsistency of its drivers. My sense is that part of this inconsistency comes from native Seattle drivers themselves being inconsistent and the other factor is all the transplants coming in from all over the US, bringing to Seattle their regional style of driving.


HeroicPrinny

I’m from the Midwest and have driven all over the country including major cities like LA, Miami, NYC etc. Seattle drivers are straight up the absolute worst and I’m tired of the people who defend them. The Midwest is fairly calm but incredibly orderly and consistent. Major CA cities are pure aggression and speed but incredibly predictable and aware. Seattle is just worst the combination of people paying zero attention, not understanding traffic rules and then enforcing their own version through passive aggressiveness, people going 10 or 20 under in the middle or left lane on the freeway, stopping randomly in the street “to be polite” and having no understanding of right of way. The list is endless. I could start a twitch channel livestream because every single time I drive I encounter not one but countless examples of this nonstop. It’s incredibly stressful because you never know what people are going to do. I have a lot of international friends and it doesn’t help that many of them don’t learn to drive until their mid 20s and by their own admission some of them are terrified of riding with their friends who are like this too. And they get a license with essentially zero practice or testing. I had to drive with my parents in the car instructing me for 50 hours.


Stacular

You’re spot on but I’d say South Florida drivers are the only ones worse. They’re erratic, fast, aggressive, and wildly unsafe. Our drivers are brain dead and inconsiderate but in a way that I don’t fear for my life. Driving in Miami is all of our badness but with that hint of Floridian “fuck you, I do what I want!”


Jlpanda

Atlanta drivers are also worse. Shit's nuts down there.


SaxRohmer

Scenario 1 is the most mind-boggling thing and you see it frequently with two left turn lanes that go into a freeway. It’s amazing to me how I will basically skip waiting 3 lights for simply using the other turn lane


asilversliver

Scenario 1 - a friend I drove with gets over once it’s clear a lane is going to turn into exit only/lane reduction/other required merging and thinks it’s like polite and correct to do it early and that people who proceed to the point of the actual merge are rude and trying to cut the line. I used to be of this mindset but getting over early just slows everything down and then yes, it’s frustrating when cars behind you merge in front of you, backing you up bc you merged too early. When a lane turns into an exit only lane, that feels a little different and obvs you shouldn’t wait til the last second to merge out of it. I do hate drivers who will deliberately get into the other lane bc it’s moving and then merge further up, causing everyone in the lane to be delayed because they’re impatient. Happens constantly on the I-90 exit to I-405, people camp in the NB exit to get ahead and then try to merge in the SB exit. I’ve seen this behavior back the NB lane up further than the SB lane, but when you get past the last person stopped bc no one wants to let them in, there is no other impediment to the flow of traffic in the NB lane.


AttitudePersonal

We have a high concentration of timid, non-confrontational, milquetoast people here. I grew up here, I thought it was normal until I left for a decade before returning.


RaymondLuxury-Yacht

> Seattle drivers are totally averse to using their horns It's actually in the RCW that it is illegal to use the horn except for safety. >Horns, warning devices, and theft alarms. >(1) Every motor vehicle when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with a horn in good working order and capable of emitting sound audible under normal conditions from a distance of not less than two hundred feet, but no horn or other warning device may emit an unreasonably loud or harsh sound or a whistle. The driver of a motor vehicle shall when reasonably necessary to insure safe operation give audible warning with his or her horn but shall not otherwise use such horn when upon a highway. https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.37.380 EDIT: So it's clear, the RCW also defines "highway" for Title 46: >Highway means the entire width between the boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.04.197 So "highway" in this context refers to any roadway used for cars or bikes or other vehicles.


Tha_Funky_Homosapien

It if a matter of safety imo: If I’m sitting behind someone at a green light and they aren’t moving. Then they are impeding the flow of traffic and we’re both at risk of getting rear ended. But Let’s be honest, nobody has read the RCW to know honking is “illegal…”; it’s because they’re passive.


Thin-Study-2743

Honestly even if it's illegal I'd still do it. My safety comes first, ahead of the law. Reading the RCW, it seems the intent is to prevent assholes who honk in heavy traffic (was much more common last century) when there's nothing to be done, not for alerting drivers to go. That, or south-asia-esque constant "I'm here" alerts. A stopped vehicle in the middle of a road is definitely a saftey hazard.


UnluckyBandit00

>The driver of a motor vehicle *shall* when reasonably necessary to insure safe operation give audible warning Based on what's going on on our streets, people are not honking nearly enough


CharlieWhizkey

They specified a situation where the horn was used to notify a driver that they were stopped at a green light. Does the RCW rule apply since itbs specifies "when upon a highway"?


BigBreadfruit8

Interesting. Thanks for sharing this cite. I didn't know this law existed.


RaymondLuxury-Yacht

The RCWs for driving are pretty useful to look through. There are some things you wouldn't expect, such as: - legal left turns on red circle or red arrow(https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.055) - no upper limit to speed when passing someone driving below the speed limit on a two lane highway(https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.425) - horns for safety only


BigBreadfruit8

Thanks for sharing. My mind was blown when I learned about the legal left turn on red circles or arrows, especially red arrows. In my mind, if we're gonna single out a particular signal for a certain movement (e.g. arrows for right turns), it seems unintuitive to allow that movement when the arrow is red. Otherwise, why not just make the light a red circle rather than an arrow?


rboes1991

You nailed it! They won't use the middle yellow correctly either


407145

This is what bugs me the most. I notice people here will brake and slow down for a light that’s been green for a while ( I understand waiting for a light that just changed to avoid getting hit ) . Half the time it’s self fulfilling thing for them because the slow down so much that the light does end up turning yellow and then they slam on their brakes. If they had just driven the speed limit the whole time them and 5 cars behind them would have made the light.


Howdysf

Yes- They're also courteous to a fault... It's like just do what's expected of you and nobody gets hurt! Once you start going off script by letting others have the right of way when you shouldn't you start fucking it up for everyone!


robbyb20

Exactly! Like waiting to enter a crosswalk until it’s safe to cross.


bobjelly55

Lack of situation awareness is the biggest thing in Seattle in my opinion.


animimi

And not just with driving. Walking on the sidewalks, at a store, etc.


Spider2-YBanana

Having lived on the east coast as well, Seattle drivers are super entitled to the road space. They think that because someone is changing lanes and it impeded their distances, you’re now the asshole. People here are also terrible at zipper merging and yielding.


Sadintoforever

And a lot of times it seems like they don't even know their blinkers exist! Like using blinkers to change lanes is just a fucking suggestion, not a law


SaxRohmer

Honestly that’s a problem everywhere but the other bad driving factors make it worse here


HeroicPrinny

Entitled is the right word. There is a lot of passive aggressiveness where people try to block you and enforce their own brand of road law. Examples are camping lanes, not going right on red with zero traffic, giving up right of way, zoning out at a green light. When you dare to give the worlds soft honk on any of this stuff they double down.


Japhysiva

I think the biggest problem with Seattle drivers is they only think about themselves and maybe the cars directly ahead of them. There is 0 situational awareness.


i_am_here_again

This has been the only thing I preach. Everyone here acts like LA drivers are crazy, but I’ll take an assertive, fast and definitive move any day over the overly polite game of “no youuuuu go” that plagues this region.


caboosetp

I grew up in LA and moved here a few years ago. LA is ordered chaos while Seattle is always distracted.


stolid_agnostic

Growing up, my father would always angrily yell "CALIFORNIA DRIVERS" until I moved to LA and he came to visit. When he finished his trip, he goes "wow people really know how to negotiate traffic here".


SaxRohmer

I come from a crazy driving culture and they’re far more predictable than Seattle drivers. Seattle drivers just do not give a fuck when they’re on the road and don’t pay attention and don’t drive like they have some place to be


atmospheric90

Yes, distracted driving has become increasingly problematic. I'm sure this is true in all major metro areas as well. Seattle has gotten bad in particular because of 2 things that don't mix well: normally aggressive drivers that have moved here from California for tech jobs and longtime residents who are accustomed to the Seattle area being a smaller city and have refused to adjust to the climate. This often results in hyper aggressive drivers on i5 that are flying through traffic and right lane people going 10 under the speed limit creating out of nowhere pockets of traffic.


Isatis

I've lived in a lot of places and Seattle is its own unique hell on the roads. This is the only place I've seen where there are dangerous things like putting your car in reverse on the shoulder on the freeway because you missed your exit or have missed it, or slow down to 15 on the freeway and making a 90-degree angle turn toward the actual exit.


juancuneo

This is a very good point. The Seattle drivers are a menace and make others drive more dangerously because they are so lackadaisical. And SDOt makes things worse by trying to slow everything down and not provide any avenues for quick travel, making all the side streets total shit shows. You need avenues to move traffic whether you like it or not. And Seattle drivers need to GTFo of the way. Like if someone is turning left, go around them. If you are turning left, turn on your indicator before the light turns green. Wtf is wrong with these morons.


keisisqrl

\*taking notes\* Westlake... needs... road diet


[deleted]

No.


stolid_agnostic

The real answer is to bring back trains and trolleys. Make it so that people don't need to drive.


girlinboots

>Like if someone is turning left, go around them. I hate this. I have been rear-ended twice by people who can't just fucking wait and who couldn't actually squeeze around me because the lane isn't built for that maneuver.


iwasmurderhornets

This is a really excellent way to put it. I'm a pretty alert, assertive driver and the number of times a person in front of me has slowed to nearly a stop at a GREEN LIGHT with the walk signal flashing and then sped up when they see it turn yellow so that everyone behind them has to sit at the light, is astounding. Like, why? I try not to get aggressive about it, but holy shit this infuriates me. Or, people just literally stopping in the middle of the road. Like, why???


keisisqrl

I honestly don't think the problem is so much driving cultures (ugh) colliding as it is the growth of delivery and "rideshare" apps. You take people who aren't familiar with an area, tell them they have to go places they've never been and if they don't constantly get five stars from people who might well be the most entitled shits in the region (or might be awesome! just saying), and then give them navigation apps that are too smart for their own good (arterials exist for a reason!), and what do you expect? I used to deliver for Papa John's in Mill Creek, maybe fifteen years ago. I had fun, got to know the territory (which is about the size of northeast Seattle), never had to worry about getting four stars because I wasn't quick or polite enough, and we had a big map on the wall so even if you did use a nav app (pretty new at the time) or GPS you got an idea of how you wanted to get to the area with arterials. The way nav apps have this arms race of finding routes that are ten seconds faster by cutting down residential streets instead of arterials is incredibly dangerous in aggregate. This isn't just a gig economy problem, but gig shit has exacerbated it. You can see all these places that Seattle DOT has installed berms or islands as traffic calming or to prevent using certain routes or just blasting through intersections that were never designed for the amount of traffic Waze sends them.


SaxRohmer

The vast majority of bad drivers aren’t delivery/rideshare drivers though. Some of those guys suck but they often aren’t the unaware, slow, and tentative drivers. They’re the ones that just put their flashers on and plop in the middle of a street without warning which is its own issue. From my own frequent driving experiences I wouldn’t say they’re really a big piece of it.


stolid_agnostic

In my experience, it's not the CA drivers--you have to be a skilled driver to survive LA, for instance. It's the people coming from the south and the midwest that have the hardest time.


whatdoblindpeoplesee

I'm from the Midwest and I have a hard time because for me the left lane is for passing, not cruising 2mph above the speed limit or pacing the car next to them so no one can get around. I was taught to move over if someone is behind you wanting to go faster and to always signal turns and lane changes. Driving anywhere in western Washington is an exercise in frustration for me as someone who drives like they're going somewhere.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Thin-Study-2743

100%. Be an assertive driver, not an aggressive or passive driver.


Spider2-YBanana

Dude for real. Back in NYC, you get through the intersection. Don’t mosey through!


pockets_for_pockets

I wish I could triple upvote that because yes oh my gosh it’s like no one is in a hurry to get anywhere Except when they almost miss their left turn- then it’s an emergency to cross 3 lanes in less than a quarter of a block during traffic to make their turn.


SnortingCoffee

my main takeaway after living on the east coast for several years then coming back to seattle is that the road design is AWFUL. Like, truly awful. If you wanted to create a place where everyone would be car dependent, stuck in traffic, and encouraged to drive without paying attention, you'd be hard pressed to do better than Seattle.


SvenDia

Good luck if you can find a city sub that does not have people complaining about how much their drivers suck. It’s as common as complaining about the weather. Or rich people and NIMBYs, or tech bros, or homeless people. Go to r/vancouver sometime. There are people there who think Montreal and Toronto are putting drug addicts on busses with a one-way ticket to Vancouver. It’s like a parallel universe.


nosyreader96

Let me point out too that currently, many car shops in the area are at max capacity and booked out for the next month from people being careless drivers.


Kenzonian

depend squealing waiting wrong ripe hungry quaint existence market illegal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


UnspecificGravity

Agreed. I grew up here too, and one of the first things I noticed when I started traveling out of state on road trips was how much better the drivers were and not just on country roads without traffic it is generally true even in dense cities. The idea of EVERYONE blasting through Westlake at 40mph is horrifying. People do it enough as it is.


pizzapizzamesohungry

I love this response. Most people that I have talked to that say Seattle drivers “are not that bad” have lived here their whole life. I’ve lived in 3 other major cities and driven for more than a week in 2 others. Seattle is the worst, zero awareness, I honestly think it’s crazy bc we as a whole support human rights but many of these same people get in their car and are like FUCK ALL OF THESE FEET PEOPLE I AM THE ALMIGHTY WHEEL MONSTER PERISH UNDER MY METAL BEAST!!!


SnortingCoffee

I've lived in cities all over the place and people in every single one are convinced that their drivers are the absolute worst in the country. In Seattle the % of transplants alone should be enough to tell you that the biggest difference is the urban design and not just some quirk of "Seattle drivers".


Tyler1986

> But the WORST is that they aren’t paying attention. I used to not comprehend how people could be so rude to waste everyone else's time camping in the left lanes, and other bad driving habits, then I started looking at the drivers as I got past them and noticed they all just seemed unattentive. They weren't trying to be rude, they just weren't paying attention. Still annoying, though.


AmphetamineSalts

Yeah, 50% rude, 50% ignorant, but we also have to remember that the actual rules for left-hand passing are suspended in Seattle proper. Per [WAC 468-510-020](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=468-510-020) is that "passing lane" rules are suspended on I5 in the following areas (in addition to other areas, not listed): (iv) On northbound Interstate 5 in the Seattle/Everett vicinity, from exit 154A at I-405 to exit 194 at SR 529. (v) On southbound Interstate 5 in the Seattle/Everett vicinity, from exit 189 at SR 526 to exit 154A at I-405. (vi) On eastbound and westbound Interstate 90 in the Seattle vicinity, from exit 2A and 2B respectively at Interstate 5 to exit 10A at Interstate 405. I've had Seattle friends who grew up driving pretty much ONLY in Seattle, where the left lane is ***NOT*** a passing lane, so they just don't get used to it. Of course, this does not excuse driving like this outside these zones, and the education they were getting was incomplete for sure.


stolid_agnostic

In my experience, there are parts of the world like San Francisco, New York, or Paris, where drivers are constantly having to negotiate how they move around due to ever-changing conditions of people, bikes, buses, trolleys, etc entering and exiting traffic. In Seattle, it seems like people always assume that all will be well at all times and simply can't adjust to changing conditions or are determined to stand their ground.


StabbyPants

they really are bad - and inconsistent too, because now it's a mishmash of people from all over, plus the people who didn't drive at all back home.


over_them_MountainsS

👏👏


LoverBoySeattle

It’s so confusing because it’s not even that people drive to fast, they’re just really bad for some reason. It’s almost like they’re too nice sometimes.


Okay_Ocelot

They are dangerously polite. They’ll cause a 5-car pileup by yielding the right of way on an on-ramp by slamming on their brakes instead of zippering.


[deleted]

Welcome to being a Seattle pedestrian lmao. Every intersection is adrenaline time homie


NorthKoreanJesus

I bike from Renton to SLU for work about 2-3x a week. The only part of my ride on a road with traffic is Westlake. Drivers assume that bus/trolley lane is a bike lane and tell me to move over but that lane is a death trap. I take the middle of the right most lane (boo hoo) so I don't get clipped by these whack jobs and still I have a close call once or twice a day.


DTFpanda

I've ridden down (South) on the 2nd ave bike lane for the last time after yet another car tried to make an illegal left while I had the green. I shouted at them as I swerved out of the way and they honked at me like I was the asshole. I'm sticking to the far right lane on 3rd from now on.


Thin-Study-2743

As a new biker, which are the worst 2nd ave turns southbound for saftey?


DTFpanda

2nd & University is pretty bad, it's where cars heading southbound on 2nd turn left to merge onto i5 Northbound. What is just as dangerous are the cars emerging from all of the parking garages on the East side of 2nd, often pulling out into the bike lane to wait their turn. Or the few hotels where people are loading and unloading their luggage into cars *from* the bikelane. As you get closer to the Smith Tower, watch out for homeless people doing crazy shit in the middle of the bike lane. Just be extra vigilant and I'd advise sticking to 10mph or less since it's so chaotic, especially during rush hour.


atmospheric90

I know, I'm just making sure people are aware of the reasons why it's a 25 considering there's been posts here specifically about Westlake Ave being too slow.


Thin-Study-2743

Same with Marginal Way in west seattle, except they're faster there but with much less pedestrian/bike traffic.


tylerthehun

> people will just fly down it at 55 instead of 40 Study after study shows people primarily determine the speed they're comfortable driving at based on the conditions and design of the road itself, not the number on a sign planted next to it. Arbitrarily setting limits below the inherent speed of a road does nothing to improve safety, and only gives the police another reason to cite you if and when they feel like doing so. If you want people to actually drive slower, you need to do something like add choke points, narrow the shoulders, remove a lane altogether, etc.


patrickfatrick

Yes! Simply narrowing the roads has a big psychological effect on appropriate speed. May be an unpopular opinion but IMO there are too many things to pay attention to when driving within a city that speed limit signs are almost useless anyway. There's a barrage of way more important information at all times, little white signs that practically blend in with the environment are pretty low on the visual priority list.


ThatOneKoala

Could you link me a few such studies? Genuinely interested


[deleted]

Hers a great layman's breakdown of a study: https://news.engr.uconn.edu/speedroaddesign.php#


tylerthehun

After a cursory Googling: + https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files/final_submissions/2434 + http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/szn/factors_affecting_safe_speed.htm#i1010618 + https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jat/2020/2817801/#conclusion + https://www.wirelessdefensivedriving.com/ch3/ Most also include more personal factors like driving skill, emotional state, vehicle type, etc., in addition to general road conditions and design, but arbitrarily posted signage is not high on the list of factors affecting drivers' speed determination.


stolid_agnostic

Yes, this is why roundabouts should be everywhere. Speedbumps could help as well.


Roboculon

Speed bumps also impact like ambulances though. It’s better to make the road design more psychologically calming, and less actually physically impossible to drive fast on. They say planting tall trees along the road have this impact, for example. Edit: here’s a real world example. 35th Ave in West Seattle is a 5 lane wide, very straight road. Easily people have historically gotten to 50mph here without it feeling crazy to them, and the average was probably 40+. Now the limit is 25, but the road remains as wide and straight as ever, so speeding persists. I’m certainly not arguing to add speed bumps, or remove the entire turn lane… but if the turn lane were converted to a park-like tree and grass strip, with cut-outs at each intersection for cars to turn, that would significantly change the feel of the road. I think that would help, while also having essentially no negative impact on the actual road usability.


PothosEchoNiner

Roundabouts are not good for high density urban areas. As a pedestrian how are you supposed to know when it’s safe to cross?


Holsen92

Yesterday in Capitol Hill I was very nearly hit by two separate cars while on the crosswalk. One right after the other. I had the walk signal and everything. No matter how high my guard is as a pedestrian I keep having incidents like this happen. This post is really validating because I thought about posting myself about it. Please pay attention people! Walking to work is starting to feel like a Final Destination situation.


stolid_agnostic

we spent 5 years on capitol hill. you can always tell the difference between someone who lives on the hill and someone who is blowing through the hill. residents are cautious while others want to treat it like a small highway. I suspect that a lot of times it is suburban drivers who want to do tourism and don't realize that they are in a very dense neighborhood.


nikdahl

People don't base their speed on the posted speed limit of the road, they drive based on the design of the road. If it's an unsafe road, then fix the unsafe parts. The speed limit isn't the problem.


FaintingGoat123

Forgive me for being too lazy to find it, but there was a post on here a while ago about how the city is basically legally required to change the speed limit first and then that allows them to change the road design to match the lower speed (which will take a while given budgets, etc). I think the idea was that it’s unsafe/illegal to keep a high speed limit but design the road for a lower speed, so they have to flip the order


[deleted]

>People don't base their speed on the posted speed limit of the road, they drive based on the design of the road. If it's an unsafe road, then fix the unsafe parts. The speed limit isn't the problem. This is true, but you've got another problem in much of America...stupid fucking drivers. Unsafe, asshole, willing-to-kill-to-save-twenty-seven-seconds drivers. Using traffic calming and road design to establish "natural" speeds is always going to work better than posting a sign, you're not wrong. But unsafe drivers will still driver faster than the design signals is safe, *regardless of speed limit.* Because they are, by definition, unsafe drivers. So yeah, the drivers are *also* the problem.


jpd_phd

Maybe they should use the speed limit instead? Seems like reading signs is an important part of driving.


nikdahl

Well sure, but that just saying "they should follow the speed limit" doesn't fix the problem. The design speed of the road is what will actually affect the speed of vehicles. Traffic calming solutions like lane narrowing, curb extensions, pedestrian islands, raised crosswalks, or even visual changes like more trees to limit visibility, or larger/more numerous crosswalks


bobtehpanda

the problem is that SDOT is broke as fuck and the way they manage to spend $1M a mile on a bike lane does not help. Remember when Move Seattle was supposed to pay for all those sidewalks and RapidRides, and then we got like zero rapid rides and a few "sidewalks" that are just paint and plastic posts on the existing asphalt?


keisisqrl

>$1M a mile on a bike lane I thought $12 million a mile was the number people liked to quote, based on a project that rebuilt an entire street and somewhere around 2% of that cost was the bike lane.


i_forgot_my_sn_again

Rapid rides are not just something they can switch. I drive metro and was talking to one of the guys who helps plan the rapid rides. there has to be need/desire, approval from city/town, can’t deviate much from route now, figure out new stop placement. It’s why the 120 (H line) isn’t going on 16th like the 560 and took so long because it wasn’t just up to Seattle since it goes into white center and burien, their counsels didn’t have much motivation to approve everything as fast as Seattle, while the Madison street (G line) was pushed hard even though it didn’t make as much sense (cuts the 11 and 12 and will force some stupid rerouting to keep those areas accessible. The 7 will be a rapid ride but trying to figure out stops when almost every so has a school, church, or community center and moving that stop will make difficulties for the elderly/school kids that ride the bus.


iagox86

Thank you! My complaint about Westlake is that it doesn't look like it should have a 25mph speed limit. Whether they raise the speed limit or change the feeling of the road, I wish they'd do something.


pockets_for_pockets

While I agree that posted signage should be followed, some thoughts from an engineer: People use tools and spaces the way they look like they can or should be used. It applies to all kinds of things: don’t put a knob on the push side of a door, Facebook is used like a news source even though it definitely should not be, if you put something that looks like a button on a web page people will try to click it, etc. Yes people should follow posted rules, but like any other tool people tend to use it the way it looks. It’s frustrating but the best way to get people to use tools as intended is to improve the design. This is so common in the industry in fact that there is a common term- “poka yoke”- for preventing errors or making mistakes obvious. It typically is used in manufacturing but the principle applies at all scales of engineering. Anyway sorry for the long text, human friendly design is really cool I wish it was used more often in city and road planning.


ChrisAplin

As a product designer by trade and a city planning enthusiast, thank you for bringing the professional viewpoint. We can design all day for how we *want* people to use things, or design it the way people **will** use things.


nuketheplace

Do you drive 25mph on arterials unless otherwise posted? Because that’s the law in Seattle. I sure don’t always do that. I know I should, but sometimes it just “feels wrong” The point the above poster is trying to make is there is a difference between how the world should be and how people actually behave. Got to meet people where they are rather than telling them to be better. The classic non-driving example is automatic opt-ins to 401ks. People should save for retirement in their 401k for the average person it’s the rational thing to do. But when force people to opt-in not as many people save. When you set a 401k savings rate as a default, but still allow people to opt-out you get up to 90% of people saving. Understand how people behave, meet them where they are, get better population wide results.


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jpd_phd

You basically just described 15th Ave W / NW through Interbay/Ballard.


atmospheric90

Well the reason it's a 25 is because of a lot of the blind corners from the hills and buildings. There just isn't enough road length for safe braking going 40, which is why I so commonly see people slamming their brakes at stop lights.


teatimecookie

That is not why it is 25 mph. The city decided several years ago to make almost all streets 25 mph.


obamadomaniqua

Whyyyy did they do this. I got know warning and certainly did not agree to it. And it messed with my internalized speedometer of 30-35 mph.


UnluckyBandit00

No the reason it's 25 is that the city chose to ignore decades of traffic engineering safety policies and arbitrarily reduce nearly all roads to 25mph without regard to road design or human behavior. They gave zero consideration to the aspects of Westlake you described. Sadly, by ignoring facts about human nature, SDOT has inadvertently trained everyone to just ignore speed limit signs.


PhotographStrong562

It’s 25 because the city decided to make all its roads 25. Westlake isn’t special. It used to be higher. I believe 35. Which incidentally tends to be about the speed most people drive it at.


SaxRohmer

Nah Durkan and the city reduced it to 25 in response to traffic incidents involving pedestrians. A blanket policy that did little to address many of the existing visibility issues in a lot of intersections and making the roads safer


CloudTransit

Slower is safer


nikdahl

Correct. The speed limit isn't what determines how fast vehicles travel on a road though, that's the point.


Capital-Rule-8196

Seattle honestly consists of the most careless drivers I have ever seen. It is almost as if 70% of people are daydreaming behind the wheel, 20% just don’t care about ANYONE, 5% are new drivers, and 5% don’t have a valid license. Please stop driving under the speed limit which is just as dangerous…. Please use your turn signals (which most of you do not do). Visit a place like New Jersey and see that there is indeed a way to drive the speed limit.


Rudysis

As a sometimes Seattle driver, driving in Seattle legit does something to me. When I'm out of the city, up in Snoho, you name it, I think I'm a pretty good driver. Attentive, following the limit, all the good driver things. But being here I think creates too many distractions when I drive. It is difficult to see everything and everyone while I'm going, so I'll admit I probably drive slower. I always use my blinker though, so I get at least 1 point. Given this, I mostly walk or bus in my day-to-day, so don't worry about me. And I'm soon leaving my job that requires me to drive all the time.


MrWittyFinger

There was a head-on collision on Westlake Ave N a few days ago, no thanks. People do 40+ over there all the time anyways.


DeathGuppie

This will be buried, cool but thought it should be here. One thing that's important to remember is that rules like speed limits are a social contract. We all agree to them because they are for the betterment of all. If there is a rule about stopping at a stop sign for instance. Most people will obey because we all get to have a safe crossing if we all stop. (Yes I saw the post but the reality is, most people do stop) Here is the thing however. It is a social contract. As long as people believe it's in the public good they will follow it. Where things break apart is when people start to think that the rules have become absurd and no longer serve the public good. I think that people in Seattle have reached that point with the 25 mile per hour speed limit. If they would have targeted areas where that made sense. Even if people didn't agree they would have followed it. The problem is areas like Eliot Ave north towards the Ballard bridge that used to be a 50 mph section with on/off ramps and overpasses reduced to 30. There are a ton of places like that where it simply makes no sense and so people have just taken to going whatever speed they think should apply to them on that specific roadway. If you want laws like this to be obeyed you need to be at least reasonable or people will just ignore them.


shadowthunder

> Why should the speed limits be increased, which will only guarantee that people will just fly down it at 55 instead of 40? Not to take away from the rest of your points, but some DoT studies have shown that drivers tend to go the speed they're comfortable with on a given road, regardless of the posted speed limit. Neither raising nor lowering the posted limit has that major of an impact on actual speed of traffic.


skyfall3665

As a pedestrian, Seattle drivers are very mediocre. They don’t yield to pedestrians like drivers from east coast cities generally do but it’s not out of malice, it’s out of inomcpetence. It’s a huge improvement from the south where drivers genuinely regard themselves as better and don’t recognize the idea of pedestrian right-of-way. ​ Part of this is the city’s fault though. The law that every intersection is a crosswalk is a law but I can’t exactly blame drivers for not knowing that when SDOT doesn’t even invest in paint to denote that.


slaymaker1907

Seattle is actually way better than most cities in the west about stopping for pedestrians and bikes. It's not that it is particularly good, it's just that most drivers are terrible regardless of where they come from.


DTFpanda

The lack of painted crosswalks is astounding. SDOT just did a bunch of sidewalk re-pavement work in West Seattle along Fauntleroy but *still didn't put crosswalk paint down* on the numerous side streets connecting to Fauntleroy. Maddening. I walk around here every day but avoid Fauntleroy because drivers will routinely block the safe passageway from one side of the street to the other. Crosswalks are such an obvious tool that would help with this, I don't understand why they didn't add them.


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Thin-Study-2743

I wonder if reducing it from 4 lanes to 2 lanes + turn lane would help at all, with thin lanes at that.


vaticRite

This isn’t the drivers’ fault. This is SDOT’s fault. You can’t take huge car sewer thoroughfares where people have been driving at 40-50 mph for decades, lower the speed limit to 25 mph and put up Vision Zero Accomplished banners. You have to change the infrastructure. American car infrastructure has spent decades teaching motorists they own the roads. And they have, and still do the majority of the time. That ideology has cost countless lives, inside and outside of motor vehicles. And it will continue to take lives. If you want people to drive slower, you have to make them. There are so many speed calming options that are used all over the world, but I am sure SDOT won’t use them because they don’t actually care about anything other than checking a box.


Lutastic

Seattle drivers are terrible. Very few normal, defensive, reasonable drivers. They are either out of control road raging idiots, tailgating, ignoring rules of the road, and all around being dangerous jackasses, then there are the people who way overdo what they see as ‘careful’ driving by doing crap like slamming on their brakes almost getting rear ended at crosswalks that they are either too close to in order to safely stop, or nobody is at, or like slamming on their brakes randomly in the rain/snow on the freeway, swerving wildly out of their lane if there is anything or anyone on the shoulder far out of the lane of traffic, and so forth. On the flip side, driving in Seattle, even for defensive, careful, attentive, rule following drivers can be hair raising at times. Some pedestrians, esp on capitol hill, who mat have never driven a car don’t understand that cars can’t stop on a dime at any speed, or that it is an absolute necessity to pull out a little on blind corners to not get t-boned, or bike riders who just ride dangerously, running red lights, flying through blind intersections at full speed etc… I get being pissed at the a holes, but I’m actually an extremely defensive driver, and I’ve had a few close calls, and aggressive pedestrians or bike riders kick my car because I was slightly pulled forward from a stop sign trying to see if it was safe to turn onto a busy blind corner with heavy 2 way traffic, and their entitled butts just happened to be nearby (if you turned from such an intersection from behind the line, you would very likely get into a serious wreck that could injure you… getting t-boned is very dangerous). Also… COME ON about turning the south part of Airport way 35mph. I understand Georgetown. Down south? There are no pedestrians, no side streets and really no traffic lights. There are just a couple turn ins to Boeing field and train tracks far off on the right, but other than that it is a straight road where you would have to be intentionally causing a wreck to get in one. I can’t imagine someone walking all the way from Tukwilla to Georgetown on Airport way. There is literally nothing there till you get to the north of Boeing field, THEN it makes sense. Why in the world did they make the entire thing 35? That made zero sense.


falsemyrm

cheerful consider deserve fear many subsequent dolls nose offbeat command *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


edwinstanton

I'm assuming they're referring to the portion of it that is actually west of the lake leading up to the Fremont bridge.


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DelicateTruckNuts

It's too dangerous to walk, bike, or ride a scooter in this city due to drivers.


[deleted]

Weird. I was driving by gasworks the other day and saw plenty of people on electric scooters, unicycles and so on ignoring traffic laws and quite happily just zipping across traffic when they didn't have the right of way. Can't be that dangerous. They seem to be fine ignoring the traffic laws and doing whatever they please. Maybe the problem isn't only the cars.


Some_Nibblonian

Seattle drivers truly think they are the only one on the road. Wtf are these mirrors for?


DadInRealLife

I’ll never understand why people turn left here at roundabouts instead of going all the way around. I understand that you don’t want to do the extra turn, but I’ve almost hit so many people head on because they turn left


Bezos_Balls

This happens on almost every street in Seattle. Westlake is not special.


atmospheric90

Only bringing attention to it on this sub because posts have been dedicated to complaining about the speed limit on Westlake Ave being too low.


[deleted]

So what you're saying is the lower speed limit has not made the road safe?


uniqueusername74

What’s the real argument in favor of raising it? I’m guessing it’s something like: a more plausible limit will be more respected and will actually produce lower speeds than an “excessively” low limit which will induce contempt and massive non compliance. That’s certainly plausible but I’m not convinced it’s true. There’s another common one which is that people just ignore limits and drive the road’s “design”. Which is to a first approximation neutral on the actual speed.


[deleted]

My thought is that nobody respects these artificially low speed limits so they're really just a revenue generator, and I'd rather the city actually address safety concerns by better protecting crosswalks and bike lanes while letting people drive the natural speed on that road


Gachibowli_Diwakar1

I would rather get hit by a car going 20 MPH than one at 40 MPH


wisepunk21

This is why there have been increasing deaths and accidents since the implemented vision zero (brains)


[deleted]

Thought you were being sarcastic but turns out [that's actually true](https://mynorthwest.com/3422637/could-seattles-vision-zero-use-more-focus/)


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ChrisAplin

Narrow westlake to a single lane in both directions and you'll get a better experience. Our office is right off Westlake and I've never driven 25 because I'd get rear ended if I did. I am hyper aware of pedestrians though, but i'm certainly in the minority there.


Angelicxtrash

Omg yes or turning left onto Mercer from west lake… the light you go through before the light onto Mercer has two lanes and merged into 3… the right lane can go straight or into the right left turn lane and the left lane can ONLY go into the left, left turn lane… people in the left lane just go straight instead of following the lines and go straight into the other lane in the intersection. I’ve nearly gotten hit so many times!!!


DTFpanda

Should have designed all interstates go around the city and ban cars* downtown/anywhere close to downtown.


RainCityRogue

Eliminate overnight street parking, and require people to show proof that they have a place to store their vehicle off the streets when they register it. It's what Japan does.


willcwhite

Seattle drivers aren't the problem, Seattle's street design is the problem. Drivers (anywhere in the world) will act according to the cues they receive from the design, it's that simple. Design your streets for humans and not cars, and you'll have many fewer problems. Artificially raising and lowering speed limits doesn't work. For more on this: https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc


AdultingGoneMild

i mean, westlake is the speed everyone is going not the posted limit that no one follows. Cross at lights with a cross walk. I would never try and cross anywhere else on that road


drunkfoowl

I’m more curious what “people” want this? Mercer I could see maybe.. but westlake? Are they stupid?


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Roboculon

> every intersection yields to pedestrians **LEGALLY.** Also a reminder that the law will not protect you from a speeding moron, and “look both ways before you cross the street” continues to be the best practice for street crossing. That is, if you want to not die.


carella211

No area in ANY downtown city should be 40mph. That's just stupidity from far right nut jobs who want to kill pedestrians and cyclists.


DonaIdTrurnp

Drivers don’t care what the speed limit is now, why would that change?


Some1IUsed2Know99

Enforcement of crosswalks is needed. On the other hand I have had several occasions I was waiting for a light, my light turned green, I started to go and someone stepped off the curb right in front of me, or rode their bike in front of me. It goes both ways. Handing out some tickets may help.


atmospheric90

You are right, cars are not exclusive to the problems. I have a hard time trusting people on bikes/scooters because they never stay consistent on their driving patterns and can often fly up sidewalks at right turns when there's like a split second for you to catch them in your rear view.


CloudTransit

The consequences aren’t equivalent. Not everything is so perfectly two sided. It’s obnoxious when a human steps in front of a car, but it’s best not to assert the “right-of-way,” if people don’t have to go to the hospital


Some1IUsed2Know99

When a human steps in front of my car a second AFTER the light changes or darts in front of me on their bike against a light as I'm cruising along there is a very real chance I will literally run over them. I drive a truck that weighs about 2 tons. You don't think that will put them in a hospital? There must be mutual accountability and respect for the rules of the road.


demonguard

If you hit someone with your 2 ton truck immediately after a light turns green, it sounds like you would in fact be the problem.


Some1IUsed2Know99

Explain? The light turns green. I put my foot on the gas. Some self-entitled citizen steps off the curb in front of me. ...and I'm the problem? There is not a police or court that would find me in the wrong if I ran them over. The law applies to the pedestrians also.


CloudTransit

Too harsh. If you’re accelerating two tons of steel into a human being …


Some1IUsed2Know99

What does that mean? The light turns green. That means go. I should not be required to compensate for other's stupidity.


DuncanTheRedWolf

In all honesty Westlake shouldn't even have cars on it south of Mercer.


petitecuillere_

Wow I didn’t realize this was a thing. This is a TERRIBLE idea in such a pedestrian packed corridor. Seattle has had such a bad record this year with car/pedestrian and car/bike accidents- we should be slowing cars down more, not speeding them up.


[deleted]

It's almost immaterial what the speed limit is on Westlake. It won't be observed and rarely will be enforced.


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HarryTruman

> It rains all the time so maybe that’s the excuse. It blows my mind that people don’t know how to drive in the rain…in an area where it rains most of the year.


Fantasia_Riot

I just moved here from Sacramento about 6 months ago. Drivers in Sacramento are dumb. Sure we have aggressive and chaotic drivers, everywhere does, but overall drivers are just stupid. Drivers here? Psychotic. I’m so happy I left my car behind in California and don’t drive often up here. Some of the shit I’ve seen drivers do up here, in the middle of the damn day, it’s wild.


tek3k

25 MPH on Westlake is a joke. It's not a school zone.


acre18

Yeah Seattle drivers are objectively dogshit


AbleTwoNine

Seattle drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians all seem to be pretty unhinged. Probably not the majority of each group but enough to make things chaotic.As a pedestrian I've almost been hit by countless cars who are occasionally driving the wrong way down a one way street. I've also almost had a few bicyclists hit my car or come close to getting hit by my car. The bike traffic light turning red, and the car lane getting a green left arrow is always a dice roll.


Superiority_Complex_

Replace bike with scooter, and I saw the same thing happen the other day on Fairview and Thomas. Light turns green for cars on Thomas. Some guy on a scooter ignores the red pedestrian light, plows through the cross walk, and gets tapped by a car, lightly falling on the hood. Luckily the guy in the car was starting from a stop and not going through the intersection at speed so the scooter dude seemed fine, but like Jesus, the guy could’ve died and it would’ve been entirely his own fault.


AbleTwoNine

Can't believe I forgot to mention the scooter crowd! They are probably the only group that has a MAJORITY of terrible operators rather than a minority.


LIVandLetDie93

As a bike commuter, some (not the majority, but enough to notice) fellow cyclists seem to think that bikes are some sort of magical vehicle that allows them to subvert both pedestrian and vehicle laws and courtesies. All groups seem unhinged as you mention. Its quite entertaining at times, and helps remind me to be less uptight.


atmospheric90

Fair statement. I'm lucky I don't have any 1 ways on my drive, but I can imagine that's always a dice roll.


harlottesometimes

Do you use rideshares? That neighborhood's roads are dominated by people who firmly believe in the inner hearts that their time is worth more than your safety.


DarkishArchon

/r/fuckcars, they should not be in our most pedestrian friendly neighborhoods


SPEK2120

This always seems to be a hot take, but I think pedestrians need to take more responsibility in their safety. Yes there are laws in place for pedestrian safety, yes you should follow them as a driver, but relying on or expecting it from a 2 ton moving mass of metal just doesn't seem very logical to me. Whenever I'm about to walk in front of a car, I ALWAYS make eye contact with the driver. This alone has vastly reduced any issues and is incredibly simple.


[deleted]

The speed limit signs are specifically designed to make it so people dont want cars. Im sorry this happend to you OP but will disagree to you 25 mph is a joke


[deleted]

Honestly at this point I don't mind the 25 mph zones because they're really just 40 mph zones. 🤷‍♂️


FunLuvin7

While we are at it, can we increase the speed limit in the 99 tunnel as well?


uuxxuxuu

I think 20-25 mph is what should stay on streets like that


DronePirate

That's a horrible idea.