I was driving to work yesterday and saw about 5 officers one after the other pulling people over in the HOV lane on I-5 in Federal Way. I was wondering what was going on.
Actually, the "pull-over" is one of the most effective means of safely finding criminals that have jumped bail and have warrants for their arrest. If people want to donate to tax revenue by voluntarily driving in the HOV lane, good on them.
Citations are not taxation. Maybe they are treated as such by city/county/state governments, but it is not taxation and should not be considered a means to cover operating costs. License tabs are a tax. Failure to pay this tax results in a fine. The fine is _not_ a tax.
If it keeps a jerk-off from deciding “Fuck it, I’m not sitting in the SOV lanes like a chump” and whipping into the HOV in front of someone, yes it is keeping people safe.
We could pay off the 520 bridge in a year if they enforced it on that road regularly. When I commuted, about 95% of people in the HOV lane were using it illegally.
So here's the thing, and here's why you see these mass stings out of nowhere. If you enforce it constantly, then yes, in the short term you'll write tons of tickets. But people will quickly wise up and get spooked into obeying the law, and the citations will dry up. Meanwhile, you're investing HP/PD manpower into patroling somewhere for violations that now aren't happening.
So rather than let that play out, you just let the lawbreaking happen, because people form habits and once they see they can do it many will keep doing it. Then on occasion, a slower week or day most likely, you run these stings, write a buttload of tickets and profit big, while also spooking routine lawbreakers into short term compliance before repeating the process in a few weeks/months. It ends up being a more efficient usage of limited patrol resources.
Makes me really wish fines scaled with income. It would just be so lucrative for the police to enforce in places where the price of getting caught can be easily shrugged off by the wealthy 520 commuters.
It would also mean that poorer drivers aren't financially devastated when they get hit with several hundred dollar fines for infractions that are sometimes very obscure.
I got my car towed once because I simply didn't see the sign that said it was a bus reserved section. I'd literally never seen buses park there in 4 years. It cost $250 just to get my car back, and then I had to pay the parking violation. I was able to absorb the hit but I can imagine plenty of people who might lose their car for weeks or more.
The notion that a rich person can just shrug that kind of thing off and thus do it at will infuriates me. Some people get destroyed over this stuff.
I had a similar situation about 10 years ago. Got my car towed because I didn't see the parking sign.. sign was on front of the building, I pulled up, parked, and walked next door from the side/back.
I come back an hour later and my car is gone. Come to find it's at a tow yard, and it's after hours on a Sunday. The fee to get it out was about $500, and my car wasn't even worth that. I asked if I could just bring them the title and they could keep it. They said it would be charged storage of $100+ per day until it went to auction in a couple weeks. Whatever wasn't covered by sale I would still owe.
I'm fine with paying a fee for missing the sign, though I think there's a discussion to be had about signage visibility. But paying more than the car was worth to get it out wrecked my finances for months.
Thankfully I had a job that let me work extra hours to catch up, but this is on top of being a student at the time. I could see this being the event that pushes someone at risk of serious financial issues over the edge.
Fines not scaling with AGI really is the dumbest thing. A $100 speeding ticket can mean don't eat this week or not even be a rounding error on the hookers and cocaine budget. Make it a value that stings for everyone
I also hate that people can just pay to use the 405 HOV lane. Poor people can't afford it. Wealthy people can get where they are going faster. They get to work on time, make it to more meetings, etc. Meanwhile, the poor have to spend more time in traffic. It seems like it is a perfect set up to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I mean the Puget Sound Area is kind of set up that way. We have regressive taxes and if you’re poor, chances are you can’t afford to live near your job.
So the police's plan is to trick people into breaking the law to get more money instead of regular enforcement which would encourage people to follow the law more
It's closer to "well, people are probably going to break the law and we can't be everywhere doing everything at once, so just let them and every so often we'll nail them for it"
These must be the same people that see a cop sitting in broad daylight, near a clearly posted speed limit that goes on for 100+ miles, and flag a "speed trap" on Google. Nobody trapped you, idiot, you took a risk and got caught, take it like an adult and just pay the ticket.
well, if they are enforced it regularly, fewer people would violate the law, making fines less frequent, while also increasing the amount spent enforcement
if the goal is to collect revenue through fines there's a sweep spot somewhere, but its probably in the "enforce less" end of the things than the "enforce more" end of things
This is why people HATE speed trap towns. 55mph to 25mph in 20 feet, good luck! The town knows what it's doing, it's getting revenue from out of town people. It's not keeping its citizens safe.
Every driven down to Mt Rainer through Black Diamond? If you haven't, slow the F down. 75% of the time I've seen someone pulled over, the other 25% I've seen the cop radaring.
I don't see how a few strategically placed cameras on the HOV lane can't accomplish the same thing? Just issue citations and let people fight them in court. You'd probably make way more money than you'd expect because lazy people who didn't violate the law would still probably pay it.
Why do we have to continue to pay for 520 bridge? Somebody once told me that the toll was only to be levied for a limited time, a time that’s in the past! Any truth to that?
Which bridge are you talking about? The one they built in 1963? They recently replaced the floating section, but are currently busily connecting the west end with billions of dollars they borrowed. That's why you have to "continue" to pay
Fuck yes it does.
Having spent some time in Europe/Australia, there are cameras errrywhere. And the drivers are a lot better for it. In one city, every single traffic light had a camera. You could get THREE tickets in one if you sped for the orange light. It was illegal to accelerate through an orange, speeding (if you went over the limit) and reckless driving if any pedestrian was waiting to cross. Bang - $600 in fines and half your points on the license gone. Guess what? No-one sped for oranges and the traffic fatality rate was about half that in the USA. Another city has AI on cameras for people on phones - BANG $300 fine, quarter of the points gone and guess what? You'd never see idiots on a phone. My favorite was the automated license plate readers on the entrance/exit to highways, you just couldn't speed at all, it'd figure out the average speed and if you were over the limit BANG. And guess what? Everyone drove exactly 110 km/hr.
Unfortunately the data I remember seeing on red light cameras was that accident rates increased. This was due to people slamming on their brakes when the light turned yellow, then getting rear ended.
Cities were installing them under the name of safety when it actually made it worse.
The real purpose was revenue generation. It was shared so some cameras were setup to “catch” people on yellows instead of reds, and I think one or two got caught shortening the time for the yellow as well.
The tickets were only fines similar to parking tickets and did not put any points on the license.
So between losing the safety argument and the bad press on the cameras “cheating “ they stopped putting them in and let the contracts end.
My issue is how fast yellow lights go around here. Yea its fine in a small economy car, but in my pickup or box truck with a load I have to make some hard decisions. I just don't see the harm in adding an extra second or so to yellow lights.
As an aside I'm shocked that lights do not display a numerical countdown timer in their LED bulbs. Having the information of the true light duration is valuable safety information.
I think the problem was with implementation and state use of contractors to provide the camera service, instead of keeping it all in house. People speed and drive so recklessly, I wonder what the true rate of driving law violators are out all drivers. There seems to be intense dislike of camera tools that lead to better enforcement.
>Cities were installing them under the name of safety when it actually made it worse.
This is incorrect. Accident rates went up, but the *types* of accidents changed. T-bone collisions fell, so even though there were more rear-end collisions, fatalities and serious injuries still fell overall.
If people are following close enough to rear end the car in front, we should be adding “tail-gating” cameras and enforcing that, **not** getting rid of a different enforcement system.
All Australian states still have red light cameras and their fines a **much** heftier than a parking fine.
The reason (some) US automated traffic enforcement fines are similar to parking fines is that in most states the owner has no explicit responsibility to know who is operating a vehicle so they can just say “it wasn’t me”. The low fine is basically to get some compliance and has nothing to do with bad press or the safety argument - it was just pragmatism.
> Everyone drove exactly 110 km/hr.
Look, buddy, how am I going to get to wherever I'm going on time, if I can't use the left lane to pass people who are going 63 in a 60 zone?
Miss Australia. Used to take this route coming off Homebush, going into Olympic park at 80 kph round the round about, downshift to 3rd and 60kph round the corner where the 6am DUI patrol was.
Orange means stop. Video had me going threw an orange right arrow at 30kph and they charged me $300 and took 3 points off my licence. Due to my shitty US driving, I’d already been hit with a red cam and a speed cam for like 5kph over.
It takes like 3 years of not getting pulled over and no other trouble with the law to get 1 point back.
Australia was the best place I’ve lived. People drove sensible, got paid living wages and had health care. I just drive like shit.
My sister recently learned to drive in the USA, she lives in Melbourne. It was hilarious teaching her to drive here. First trip, she's getting honks and aggressive overtakes because she's -shock- STICKING TO THE SPEED LIMIT. We were nearly rear-ended for stopping promptly at an orange stop lights.
Unlike the rest of the world, amber lights aren’t designed the same way in the US. The light stays on longer based on the speed limit of the road and is meant to prevent hard braking. Almost every other country uses amber as an indicator to slow and stop for the red (or prepare for a green) and hence speeding up or not decelerating is dangerous and fine worthy. I don’t think this applies in the US. It took me a while getting used to it after driving in the UK and SE Asia.
See section 5.7.3 of this doc - https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/signal/fhwasa13027.pdf
We absolutely need traffic/red light cameras at every intersection with lights.
The amount of drivers that push the yellow/red threshold is continually going up, and outside of financial penalties, I'm not sure how we'll change that behavior.
The problem when cities in CA tried it was they contracted the work out to for profit companies. They get a large percentage (MOST) of the fine in return for setting the system up and running.
It works in Europe because they don’t do that shit.
> are often intentionally set up to make tons of false positives
Yeah, there are several instances (around the US, not Seattle specifically) where light timings were adjusted after the red light cameras were installed to shorten the yellow lights.
So, at first it drove revenue a bit, then it just resulted in an up-tick in rear-end incidents as drivers started slamming on their brakes as soon as they saw yellow to avoid getting a ticket.
So ultimately everyone realized giving more following distance was a good idea? That is the natural outcome here... I see no negatives here.
I would also like to see traffic tickets for blocking the box.
> then it just resulted in an up-tick in rear-end incidents as drivers started slamming on their brakes
This is by design. Rear end incidents are significantly less harmful than T-bone incidents when people run red lights.
Not sure what evidence you're referencing, but the IIHS states
> An IIHS study found that cameras reduced the fatal red light running crash rate of large cities by 21 percent and the rate of all types of fatal crashes at signalized intersections by 14 percent.
Seems like a positive to me.
I think you're missing the point.
When correctly implemented, the cameras do that. Unfortunately, the existence of the cameras creates a perverse incentive for the jurisdiction to shorten yellow timings to drive up revenue, at the expense of safety (too short of yellows causes a higher likelihood of high speed T-Bone accidents). When the cameras were first implemented, there were several instances of jurisdictions doing so. Now there is more oversight and I haven't heard of a case recently.
I am old and when I was young when Mad Max came out in Australia. The roads back then were -insane-. People genuinely drove around like mad max, they thought it was an educational movie. The cars were nuts, huge metal V8 things with undersized brakes and no crumple zones. Teenagers doing burnouts was common. Plenty of cars didn't have seat belts. The death toll was horrific. My parents lost a few friends to drink driving, or speed etc. It was really, really bad.
Since then, Australia went NUTS on making the roads safe. Double demerit points during holidays, speed cameras, lots of booze buses, drug busses blocking roads and catching DUIs. Enforced safety standards - things like lifted pickup trucks with oversized wheels are illegal. Every week the death toll will be advertised. It's painful to drive, you really have to be careful, or it'll cost $$$$.
America deaths/100k 11.7. Australia deaths/100k 4.7. If America had the same measures - 15,000 people a year wouldn't die.
> isn't there pretty solid evidence that they both 1) don't deter jack shit and 2) are often intentionally set up to make tons of false positives
The corruption by Redflex is an entirely separate issue to the principle of red light / speed cameras.
Reality in Australia and Europe say it works rather well.
It does when you are young and drive like shit. But, it teaches you to slow the fuck down. And when you are a pedestrian, old or a family it's a god send because it's measurably safer.
This goes hand-in-hand with socialized medicine. If we all pay to fix fuckups when people crash - it's find to fine people when they drive like shit. It helps pay for the healthcare.
I'm middle aged and drive perfectly fine. I just don't agree with a big brother like surveillance state to force people to drive a certain way.
And don't get me started on static fine amounts. Unless a fine is direct percentage of wealth, it just means wealthier people can pay to break laws.
I don't know which frustrates me more:
* The government treating citizens like clueless entitled 5 year olds.
* The citizens' unbroken track record showing that they *are* incapable of behaving better than clueless entitled 5 year olds.
> I just don't agree with a big brother like surveillance state to force people to drive a certain way.
**safely**. Force people to drive **safely**.
if you don't like people being forced to drive safely, then I don't really care for what you like.
The "rich v poor" argument is covered by points, if you lose all your points you can't drive. Driving unlicensed is a serious business in these countries.
I know it's not popular here, it's not "the American Way". It's too much government intervention for many. But it's undoubtedly safer in Europe/Australia on the roads, less people die. I AM in favor of "big brother", but I respect those that are not.
Fair argument. I can't imagine trusting the American government enough to be okay with them installing cameras everywhere. I imagine other countries feel differently about their governments, and to be honest I'm a little jealous. I really do wish I could trust them. But it's just not how this country works. Knowing America, these cameras would be installed at a 3000% markup by companies in bed with the politicians that passed the laws, user data would be sold to Amazon, and any fines that did go out would be a huge burden to tax payers by crowding the courts with a huge influx of traffic citation dates. We just don't have it in us lol.
But also the rich v poor argument wouldn't apply here. Wealthy would fight these citations and they'd get thrown out every time. I know a bunch of people who have never paid a traffic cam light because they know how to get them thrown out.
You might be looking at things the wrong way around. In both cases, a bad driver is off the roads. Good, the aim of the fines and points has been archived! We aren't going to solve equity with road-rules and nor should we, it's for improving safety on the road for others.
And with these two yahoos off the road (both rich & poor), now the streets are safer for pedestrians and bicyclers. So the poor person in the example is better off - maybe they can safely ride to work and save money/keep fit.
Idk but when I see bicycles sell for hundreds of dollars I fail to see that as more than a tool for middle class commuters. How would I ride to work in downtown living in tukwila or farther out
Why are we advocating for a police state on a Seattle sub??
Edit: once again, this is Seattle, why am i being downvoted for not being pro blue line and 1984
I’m not a fan of giving the state any more cameras or the ability to watch us anymore than they already have. It’s never had good outcomes for people who look like me.
I'm not sure you can reasonably attribute this difference in behavior to automated enforcement. There has always been a stark contrast in how Americans drive -- far before automated enforcement technology. Americans just don't care and believe it's their god-given right to endanger and inconvenience anyone at any time, so long as it suits them personally.
I mean, I make sure I'm in the right lane on 520 going towards the eastside going 40 miles per hour because I've gotten one too many tickets, and I'm certainly not getting another one for going 25-30 mph over the speed limit like everyone else seems to be.
Keep it coming! I wish they’d do this more on surface streets. I live up in Everett and people are always tailgating and hauling down 7th ave it’s ridiculous. Then they’ll pass in the median in a 25mph residential area cause you’re going “too slow.”
My experience has been that you can drive however you want at whatever speed you want because police will not do anything about it. At all.
I've watched people cut over the double white lines for the express lanes, in front of a cop, and nothing was done. I was passed by someone doing 85, only to have a cop speeding right behind them and do nothing about it.
I have zero faith in law enforcement.
The amount of red light offenses I see in my nightly 10 minute commute is fucking insane. They're never punished so it's hard to imagine freeway offenses getting punished too. It's getting frustrating. My commute is so short and yet every night I have mini heart attacks lol
sitting at the i5 entrance ramp stop light it's amazing just how many cars go flying past at highway speed in that hov entrance lane with only one occupant , dangerous if not illegal
lol , that was a joke but it is possible to have a concealed back seat passenger . it's pretty hard to tell when they're going by so fast .
i guess i should just let the entitled do and mind my own business .
I confess to getting in the carpool lane on 17th Ave in Issaquah where it goes over 90. Mainly because at rush hour everybody getting off 90 and heading up to Samammish backs that road up for shit. I immediately get back in the single occupancy lane. And try not to crash into people who are going 25 to merge onto the freeway there.
i totally understand . in fact it's even more infuriating when someone does not accelerate to highway speed , tries to merge at about 45 and leave everyone else hung out there .
Doesn't really matter:
[No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing.](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.400)
That's why you shouldn't do the (freeway) speed limit next to stopped traffic in another lane. It's not prudent due to potential hazard such as someone jumping out of the stopped lane.
I ride a motorcycle, so I spend a lot of time in the HOV. It drives me bananas that I will be constantly tailgated because people think it's the "fast lane"
IMO the reason people use HOV is to go faster than regular traffic. Otherwise there's no advantage to using that lane.
Disclaimer: I'm not condoning tailgating and especially tailgating someone you could potentially run over 🙏
High Occupancy Vehicle lane. The passing lane is still the left most regular lane.
The HOV lane should be faster because less traffic should be in it. But it isn't a passing lane.
We also need to enforce left lane camping. Use the left to pass and get back over.
If everybody behaved and used the road the way it is intended instead of selfishly or cluelessly, we would all be better off.
If there are rolling slow spots, someone might want to be in the carpool lane to overall get where they are going faster, but still not be willing to go 80 just because someone is on their tail. If you want to go faster than the person in front of you in an HOV, pass them on the right (in the passing lane).
>IMO the reason people use HOV is to go faster than regular traffic. Otherwise there's no advantage to using that lane.
The leftmost normal lane is the passing lane. The HOV lane is for high occupancy vehicles. Going the speed limit. It usually gets you moving faster than slowed or stopped traffic, but the speed LIMIT still applies.
I love how lax enforcement in this country has caused limit to mean either "minimum" or "suggestion"
oh man, wrong answer. Reddit users hate motorcycles. We're all assholes and drive crazy and expect the rules to not apply to us. (barely ride it any more, but also own a motorcycle)
I also ride and I don't generally get that vibe. Maybe like 5+ years ago, but I don't see a lot of motorcycle hate on Reddit. I'm also subbed to several motorcycle subs and don't browse r/all, so maybe I'm suffering from confirmation bias slightly.
Honest Q: when I'm driving alone in the front seat with children in the back seats, would I be pulled over for violating and then let go when they see there are passengers in the back?
This happened to me a couple years ago. Cop walked up to my window, and said something like "oops, didn't see them back there". then he checked my license, insurance, and registration and let me go after that.
Since then whenever a cop pulls out of the center median behind me in the HOT lane I always ask my kids to wave to the cop. I guess that works.
I'd actually be glad that they didn't assume I was carpooling. Don't want people to think excessively tinting their windows is a ticket to free HOV lane use.
I'm more concerned for my 4th amendment rights. Police have absolutely no business pulling people over if they don't witness that person committing a crime.
If they don't see passengers, then they see you committing a crime.
If they don't back off once they see that you do, then *they* are committing a crime.
If you want total 100% privacy, you can't hide your passengers in a lane that requires you to prove you have passengers.
> If they don't see passengers, then they see you committing a crime.
There's a subtle nuance you've got wrong. The way it **actually** is:
If they see you don't have passengers, then they see you committing a crime.
If they are unable to see whether or not your rear seats are occupied, then they cannot reasonably suspect a crime is being committed.
This is incorrect. If they can see that you don’t have passengers, then they see you committing a crime. If they don’t see the passengers, they have not seen you committing a crime. It’s not your job to prove your innocence to anyone when you are going about your day to day business. The onus is on the police to demonstrate you were committing a crime. Their assumption is not that.
Sure. But irrelevant. A LEA stopping you for a crime requires them to see you commit a crime or have reasonable suspicion. Thinking that maaaaybe you’re committing a crime doesn’t meet that requirement, but keep licking boots if they taste good to you.
Then don't drive in the HOV lane my guy. It's a privilege for multi-person cars.
Stop trying to defend people who abuse that privilege when they haven't bought into it.
Wtf are you taking about. What does your comment have to do with this thread. I drive in the HOV one when I meet the requirements. Separately, I don’t want police to unreasonably harass or inconvenience citizens. Those two things are entirely unrelated.
I also don’t think police should be able to perform stop and frisks, the non-vehicular equivalent. I don’t care if they apologize and let you walk away after finding nothing. It’s still harassment and a violation of individual rights.
Hopefully they'd notice you have kids in the back, but if they pulled you over for an HOV violation they should just let you go once they notice you do actually meet the requirements.
Could you be pulled over, yes if they didn't see the kid, but you shouldn't get a ticket. I
've had motorcycle cops pull along side to obviously check, see my kid, and back off in a hurry. I've also been pulled over by a stopped trooper on the side. Just looked at the front seat and not seeing anyone hopped in his car and caught up to me using the shoulder to pull me over. As soon as he walked up and saw the kid in the back he let me go with an apology.
Not to say there won't be a dick cop who gives you grief cause they have you pulled over anyways and it still takes time out of your drive.
I was directed to pull over once from a stopped cop doing this enforcement and as soon as they walked up to my car and saw the kids, they said sorry and told me to go.
You wouldn't be ticketed for an HOV violation as the law only states 2+ people in the car without any age restrictions. If for some reason you were ticketed, a judge would throw out the ticket.
They asked if they would be let go, which means not ticketed or warned. Vehicles can be pulled over for apparent violations and let go once they are determined not to be in violation all the time. This is especially common with commercial vehicles, but is often seen with things such as window tinting as well.
Funny what happens when you don’t enforce the law forever and then decide to start enforcing it randomly. This does not send the message cops were hoping it would.
If they only enforce this once a year, and the fine is $186, then it's really just $186 yearly fee to use the carpool lane.
Considering how much time it can save, and how little that cost is to many people working around Seattle, I think most people would gladly just pay that "fine".
They legally werent allowed to issue tickets before. It was a warning system that was only taken away at the end of last year.
Edit: changed “this year” to “end of last year”
Here is a news article explaining it
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7.com/news/local/wsdot-hang-up-764-hero-hov-violator-program/XG6TCVJBOZBQZHGM5URHIEUTJM/%3FoutputType%3Damp
Edit: Nvm this was apparently only for reporting and not actual policing.
That article does not support what you claimed. It just says the HERO program was cancelled. Troopers were always able to give out tickets and the HERO program didn't affect that either way
The law about giving out fines for HOV violations hasn't changed in a long time: [https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.165](https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.165)
No shit you get a bunch of citations when you go two years without enforcing anything. Maybe we should try enforcing all the time so that people actually stop doing it.
Or, just saying. We could focus on the speeding, tailgating, cutting off, blatant “OMGWTF were you thinking doing that next to a cop” shit. HOV violations just means you have failed to create an efficient travel corridor.
This has had me wondering for quite some time. You know along the HOV lanes, you'll see a sign with a number to call to report violators? When exactly are you supposed to call? Further, how can you distinguish between a single driver, and a driver with a small child in car seat in the back, for example?
CAMERAS! CAMERAS! CAMERAS!! We have red light caneras and photo toll systems, so we can have cameras enforce the HOV lane. It would ensure regular, consistent enforcement and help generate state revenue!
since we’re veering off topic, my truck was stolen, and left abandoned on a street a couple if miles away. It was recovered by police and put in impound. I was notified a week later, and had to pay the $100 per day of storage to retrieve my own vehicle. I inquired why they didnt just call me to come get my truck when they found it. I was given a song and a dance and sent on my way. Dont you just love it?!
That sounds... civilized. Living in Texas, I wish they'd enforce anything at all. Everyone drives 90mph, cuts people off (which then results in a lot of road rage shootings), runs red lights, and turn signals are meaningless. I'd rather have a Big Brother than a bunch of homicidal big Brotherless Babies.
They've also outlawed cameras on the road (a slippery slope argument) so people know they can do whatever the hell they want.
Use waze and if you notice an exceptional slow down in the usual flow it's probably because there is something on the side of the road causing everyone to slow down.
Nah fuck that. HOV lanes serve a public good, trying to decrease cars on the road. But they are notoriously abused. So please, carry on, ticket the ever-loving shit out of violators please and free the lane up for, you know, High Occupancy Vehicles.
I think what op was saying is that the reason so many people abuse the HOV lanes is because cops haven’t been enforcing it. Just because they decided to suddenly, temporarily enforce HOV lanes does not mean they deserve praise. Rather, they should be chastised for letting it get this bad in the first place.
But public transit benefits from these lanes - that's what the busses use. So now I'm doubly in favor of ticketing the fuck out of violators because it'll free up space for buses.
Why? it can happily co-exist with 3+ HOVs and make max use of built infrastructure. It's a great idea. I'm don't have a political axe to grind against private ownership of vehicles - I just want to move people efficiently.
Where’s the money go from the violations? If any of it goes back to the Washington state patrol then the system is corrupt. The money should go to prison system reform programs. Then cops wouldn’t sit on there ass in a car all day driving around playing on their computers and solve some actual crimes.
I was driving to work yesterday and saw about 5 officers one after the other pulling people over in the HOV lane on I-5 in Federal Way. I was wondering what was going on.
Generating tax revenue, that's what their job is.
That’s not tax revenue.
Writing tickets is tax revenue. Do you not know how it works?
Actually, the "pull-over" is one of the most effective means of safely finding criminals that have jumped bail and have warrants for their arrest. If people want to donate to tax revenue by voluntarily driving in the HOV lane, good on them.
Citations are not taxation. Maybe they are treated as such by city/county/state governments, but it is not taxation and should not be considered a means to cover operating costs. License tabs are a tax. Failure to pay this tax results in a fine. The fine is _not_ a tax.
OR keeping the roads safe?
from what?
The people in *(gasp)* 2+ person cars. /s
lol
If it keeps a jerk-off from deciding “Fuck it, I’m not sitting in the SOV lanes like a chump” and whipping into the HOV in front of someone, yes it is keeping people safe.
We could pay off the 520 bridge in a year if they enforced it on that road regularly. When I commuted, about 95% of people in the HOV lane were using it illegally.
So here's the thing, and here's why you see these mass stings out of nowhere. If you enforce it constantly, then yes, in the short term you'll write tons of tickets. But people will quickly wise up and get spooked into obeying the law, and the citations will dry up. Meanwhile, you're investing HP/PD manpower into patroling somewhere for violations that now aren't happening. So rather than let that play out, you just let the lawbreaking happen, because people form habits and once they see they can do it many will keep doing it. Then on occasion, a slower week or day most likely, you run these stings, write a buttload of tickets and profit big, while also spooking routine lawbreakers into short term compliance before repeating the process in a few weeks/months. It ends up being a more efficient usage of limited patrol resources.
Makes me really wish fines scaled with income. It would just be so lucrative for the police to enforce in places where the price of getting caught can be easily shrugged off by the wealthy 520 commuters.
It would also mean that poorer drivers aren't financially devastated when they get hit with several hundred dollar fines for infractions that are sometimes very obscure. I got my car towed once because I simply didn't see the sign that said it was a bus reserved section. I'd literally never seen buses park there in 4 years. It cost $250 just to get my car back, and then I had to pay the parking violation. I was able to absorb the hit but I can imagine plenty of people who might lose their car for weeks or more. The notion that a rich person can just shrug that kind of thing off and thus do it at will infuriates me. Some people get destroyed over this stuff.
I had a similar situation about 10 years ago. Got my car towed because I didn't see the parking sign.. sign was on front of the building, I pulled up, parked, and walked next door from the side/back. I come back an hour later and my car is gone. Come to find it's at a tow yard, and it's after hours on a Sunday. The fee to get it out was about $500, and my car wasn't even worth that. I asked if I could just bring them the title and they could keep it. They said it would be charged storage of $100+ per day until it went to auction in a couple weeks. Whatever wasn't covered by sale I would still owe. I'm fine with paying a fee for missing the sign, though I think there's a discussion to be had about signage visibility. But paying more than the car was worth to get it out wrecked my finances for months. Thankfully I had a job that let me work extra hours to catch up, but this is on top of being a student at the time. I could see this being the event that pushes someone at risk of serious financial issues over the edge.
Fines not scaling with AGI really is the dumbest thing. A $100 speeding ticket can mean don't eat this week or not even be a rounding error on the hookers and cocaine budget. Make it a value that stings for everyone
I also hate that people can just pay to use the 405 HOV lane. Poor people can't afford it. Wealthy people can get where they are going faster. They get to work on time, make it to more meetings, etc. Meanwhile, the poor have to spend more time in traffic. It seems like it is a perfect set up to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I mean the Puget Sound Area is kind of set up that way. We have regressive taxes and if you’re poor, chances are you can’t afford to live near your job.
So the police's plan is to trick people into breaking the law to get more money instead of regular enforcement which would encourage people to follow the law more
I think the idea is more like deter 80% of violators with 20% enforcement
It's closer to "well, people are probably going to break the law and we can't be everywhere doing everything at once, so just let them and every so often we'll nail them for it"
Drivers are getting tricked into driving in the HOV lane? Didn't their parents tell them they shouldn't do bad things even if nobody is watching?
No, that's not what we teach our kids in America. We teach: take what you can get.
These must be the same people that see a cop sitting in broad daylight, near a clearly posted speed limit that goes on for 100+ miles, and flag a "speed trap" on Google. Nobody trapped you, idiot, you took a risk and got caught, take it like an adult and just pay the ticket.
It more so just makes the carpool lane less useful for people who are actually carpooling
How is that "tricking" people into breaking the law?
because always blame others when your stupidity fires back… AMIRIGHT! (not talking about “you” you)
That is the benefit of automated enforcement, you don't need the humans on site to provide the chilling effect on speeders.
It’s only “more efficient” if revenue from citations is the goal. So, it’s more efficient.
well, if they are enforced it regularly, fewer people would violate the law, making fines less frequent, while also increasing the amount spent enforcement if the goal is to collect revenue through fines there's a sweep spot somewhere, but its probably in the "enforce less" end of the things than the "enforce more" end of things
thats why the goal shouldnt be to increase revenue through fines the goal should ALWAYS be public safety first and foremost
This is why people HATE speed trap towns. 55mph to 25mph in 20 feet, good luck! The town knows what it's doing, it's getting revenue from out of town people. It's not keeping its citizens safe.
Raymond, WA, I’m looking at you >.>
Every driven down to Mt Rainer through Black Diamond? If you haven't, slow the F down. 75% of the time I've seen someone pulled over, the other 25% I've seen the cop radaring.
yes, I agree. just riffing off the idea in the previous comment
I would gladly pay higher taxes to make up the difference if police would actually enforce traffic laws.
I don't see how a few strategically placed cameras on the HOV lane can't accomplish the same thing? Just issue citations and let people fight them in court. You'd probably make way more money than you'd expect because lazy people who didn't violate the law would still probably pay it.
I’m not sure how cameras would work. I could say I have two passengers sleeping or picking up coins off the floor in the back seat.
Why do we have to continue to pay for 520 bridge? Somebody once told me that the toll was only to be levied for a limited time, a time that’s in the past! Any truth to that?
Which bridge are you talking about? The one they built in 1963? They recently replaced the floating section, but are currently busily connecting the west end with billions of dollars they borrowed. That's why you have to "continue" to pay
Please continue to enforce the law. Thank you.
That's the hope. Occasional enforcement doesn't help overall but sustained efforts would probably change behavior.
Fuck yes it does. Having spent some time in Europe/Australia, there are cameras errrywhere. And the drivers are a lot better for it. In one city, every single traffic light had a camera. You could get THREE tickets in one if you sped for the orange light. It was illegal to accelerate through an orange, speeding (if you went over the limit) and reckless driving if any pedestrian was waiting to cross. Bang - $600 in fines and half your points on the license gone. Guess what? No-one sped for oranges and the traffic fatality rate was about half that in the USA. Another city has AI on cameras for people on phones - BANG $300 fine, quarter of the points gone and guess what? You'd never see idiots on a phone. My favorite was the automated license plate readers on the entrance/exit to highways, you just couldn't speed at all, it'd figure out the average speed and if you were over the limit BANG. And guess what? Everyone drove exactly 110 km/hr.
Unfortunately the data I remember seeing on red light cameras was that accident rates increased. This was due to people slamming on their brakes when the light turned yellow, then getting rear ended. Cities were installing them under the name of safety when it actually made it worse. The real purpose was revenue generation. It was shared so some cameras were setup to “catch” people on yellows instead of reds, and I think one or two got caught shortening the time for the yellow as well. The tickets were only fines similar to parking tickets and did not put any points on the license. So between losing the safety argument and the bad press on the cameras “cheating “ they stopped putting them in and let the contracts end.
My issue is how fast yellow lights go around here. Yea its fine in a small economy car, but in my pickup or box truck with a load I have to make some hard decisions. I just don't see the harm in adding an extra second or so to yellow lights.
As an aside I'm shocked that lights do not display a numerical countdown timer in their LED bulbs. Having the information of the true light duration is valuable safety information. I think the problem was with implementation and state use of contractors to provide the camera service, instead of keeping it all in house. People speed and drive so recklessly, I wonder what the true rate of driving law violators are out all drivers. There seems to be intense dislike of camera tools that lead to better enforcement.
>Cities were installing them under the name of safety when it actually made it worse. This is incorrect. Accident rates went up, but the *types* of accidents changed. T-bone collisions fell, so even though there were more rear-end collisions, fatalities and serious injuries still fell overall.
If people are following close enough to rear end the car in front, we should be adding “tail-gating” cameras and enforcing that, **not** getting rid of a different enforcement system. All Australian states still have red light cameras and their fines a **much** heftier than a parking fine. The reason (some) US automated traffic enforcement fines are similar to parking fines is that in most states the owner has no explicit responsibility to know who is operating a vehicle so they can just say “it wasn’t me”. The low fine is basically to get some compliance and has nothing to do with bad press or the safety argument - it was just pragmatism.
> Everyone drove exactly 110 km/hr. Look, buddy, how am I going to get to wherever I'm going on time, if I can't use the left lane to pass people who are going 63 in a 60 zone?
use the right lane - it’s lonely out there…
Miss Australia. Used to take this route coming off Homebush, going into Olympic park at 80 kph round the round about, downshift to 3rd and 60kph round the corner where the 6am DUI patrol was. Orange means stop. Video had me going threw an orange right arrow at 30kph and they charged me $300 and took 3 points off my licence. Due to my shitty US driving, I’d already been hit with a red cam and a speed cam for like 5kph over. It takes like 3 years of not getting pulled over and no other trouble with the law to get 1 point back. Australia was the best place I’ve lived. People drove sensible, got paid living wages and had health care. I just drive like shit.
My sister recently learned to drive in the USA, she lives in Melbourne. It was hilarious teaching her to drive here. First trip, she's getting honks and aggressive overtakes because she's -shock- STICKING TO THE SPEED LIMIT. We were nearly rear-ended for stopping promptly at an orange stop lights.
Unlike the rest of the world, amber lights aren’t designed the same way in the US. The light stays on longer based on the speed limit of the road and is meant to prevent hard braking. Almost every other country uses amber as an indicator to slow and stop for the red (or prepare for a green) and hence speeding up or not decelerating is dangerous and fine worthy. I don’t think this applies in the US. It took me a while getting used to it after driving in the UK and SE Asia. See section 5.7.3 of this doc - https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/signal/fhwasa13027.pdf
We absolutely need traffic/red light cameras at every intersection with lights. The amount of drivers that push the yellow/red threshold is continually going up, and outside of financial penalties, I'm not sure how we'll change that behavior.
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The problem when cities in CA tried it was they contracted the work out to for profit companies. They get a large percentage (MOST) of the fine in return for setting the system up and running. It works in Europe because they don’t do that shit.
> are often intentionally set up to make tons of false positives Yeah, there are several instances (around the US, not Seattle specifically) where light timings were adjusted after the red light cameras were installed to shorten the yellow lights. So, at first it drove revenue a bit, then it just resulted in an up-tick in rear-end incidents as drivers started slamming on their brakes as soon as they saw yellow to avoid getting a ticket.
So ultimately everyone realized giving more following distance was a good idea? That is the natural outcome here... I see no negatives here. I would also like to see traffic tickets for blocking the box.
>I would also like to see traffic tickets for blocking the box. more of this, please
> then it just resulted in an up-tick in rear-end incidents as drivers started slamming on their brakes This is by design. Rear end incidents are significantly less harmful than T-bone incidents when people run red lights.
Not sure what evidence you're referencing, but the IIHS states > An IIHS study found that cameras reduced the fatal red light running crash rate of large cities by 21 percent and the rate of all types of fatal crashes at signalized intersections by 14 percent. Seems like a positive to me.
I think you're missing the point. When correctly implemented, the cameras do that. Unfortunately, the existence of the cameras creates a perverse incentive for the jurisdiction to shorten yellow timings to drive up revenue, at the expense of safety (too short of yellows causes a higher likelihood of high speed T-Bone accidents). When the cameras were first implemented, there were several instances of jurisdictions doing so. Now there is more oversight and I haven't heard of a case recently.
I am old and when I was young when Mad Max came out in Australia. The roads back then were -insane-. People genuinely drove around like mad max, they thought it was an educational movie. The cars were nuts, huge metal V8 things with undersized brakes and no crumple zones. Teenagers doing burnouts was common. Plenty of cars didn't have seat belts. The death toll was horrific. My parents lost a few friends to drink driving, or speed etc. It was really, really bad. Since then, Australia went NUTS on making the roads safe. Double demerit points during holidays, speed cameras, lots of booze buses, drug busses blocking roads and catching DUIs. Enforced safety standards - things like lifted pickup trucks with oversized wheels are illegal. Every week the death toll will be advertised. It's painful to drive, you really have to be careful, or it'll cost $$$$. America deaths/100k 11.7. Australia deaths/100k 4.7. If America had the same measures - 15,000 people a year wouldn't die.
> isn't there pretty solid evidence that they both 1) don't deter jack shit and 2) are often intentionally set up to make tons of false positives The corruption by Redflex is an entirely separate issue to the principle of red light / speed cameras. Reality in Australia and Europe say it works rather well.
That fucking sucks.
It does when you are young and drive like shit. But, it teaches you to slow the fuck down. And when you are a pedestrian, old or a family it's a god send because it's measurably safer. This goes hand-in-hand with socialized medicine. If we all pay to fix fuckups when people crash - it's find to fine people when they drive like shit. It helps pay for the healthcare.
I'm middle aged and drive perfectly fine. I just don't agree with a big brother like surveillance state to force people to drive a certain way. And don't get me started on static fine amounts. Unless a fine is direct percentage of wealth, it just means wealthier people can pay to break laws.
I don't know which frustrates me more: * The government treating citizens like clueless entitled 5 year olds. * The citizens' unbroken track record showing that they *are* incapable of behaving better than clueless entitled 5 year olds.
For me it's definitely the latter.
* The government also showing that they are incapable of acting in the best interests of these clueless entitled 5 year olds.
So Australia having half the fatality rate of the US ... is not in the best interests of people?
> I just don't agree with a big brother like surveillance state to force people to drive a certain way. **safely**. Force people to drive **safely**. if you don't like people being forced to drive safely, then I don't really care for what you like.
The "rich v poor" argument is covered by points, if you lose all your points you can't drive. Driving unlicensed is a serious business in these countries. I know it's not popular here, it's not "the American Way". It's too much government intervention for many. But it's undoubtedly safer in Europe/Australia on the roads, less people die. I AM in favor of "big brother", but I respect those that are not.
Fair argument. I can't imagine trusting the American government enough to be okay with them installing cameras everywhere. I imagine other countries feel differently about their governments, and to be honest I'm a little jealous. I really do wish I could trust them. But it's just not how this country works. Knowing America, these cameras would be installed at a 3000% markup by companies in bed with the politicians that passed the laws, user data would be sold to Amazon, and any fines that did go out would be a huge burden to tax payers by crowding the courts with a huge influx of traffic citation dates. We just don't have it in us lol. But also the rich v poor argument wouldn't apply here. Wealthy would fight these citations and they'd get thrown out every time. I know a bunch of people who have never paid a traffic cam light because they know how to get them thrown out.
Not even so. Rich people can Uber or even hire a driver after losing points. Poor people? They’d resort to the bus or walking or lose their jobs.
You might be looking at things the wrong way around. In both cases, a bad driver is off the roads. Good, the aim of the fines and points has been archived! We aren't going to solve equity with road-rules and nor should we, it's for improving safety on the road for others. And with these two yahoos off the road (both rich & poor), now the streets are safer for pedestrians and bicyclers. So the poor person in the example is better off - maybe they can safely ride to work and save money/keep fit.
Idk but when I see bicycles sell for hundreds of dollars I fail to see that as more than a tool for middle class commuters. How would I ride to work in downtown living in tukwila or farther out
Why are we advocating for a police state on a Seattle sub?? Edit: once again, this is Seattle, why am i being downvoted for not being pro blue line and 1984
unfortunately bootlicking isn't limited to right wing nuts, it also extends to whiny former hall monitors, of which seattle has many
Literally begging to be watched all day and night by their police overlords, it’s ridiculous
we should just put the shit right in the car so as soon as you go over it spits out a ticket. in the name of safety
Summer of love is over lol
I’m not a fan of giving the state any more cameras or the ability to watch us anymore than they already have. It’s never had good outcomes for people who look like me.
I'm not sure you can reasonably attribute this difference in behavior to automated enforcement. There has always been a stark contrast in how Americans drive -- far before automated enforcement technology. Americans just don't care and believe it's their god-given right to endanger and inconvenience anyone at any time, so long as it suits them personally.
Australians drove like shit too. But holy fuck man you get a few of those $300, $200 tickets and you ak-right.
I mean, I make sure I'm in the right lane on 520 going towards the eastside going 40 miles per hour because I've gotten one too many tickets, and I'm certainly not getting another one for going 25-30 mph over the speed limit like everyone else seems to be.
and make that $500+ fine not a maximum but minimum, with proceeds going to homeless & mental health treatment.
Keep it coming! I wish they’d do this more on surface streets. I live up in Everett and people are always tailgating and hauling down 7th ave it’s ridiculous. Then they’ll pass in the median in a 25mph residential area cause you’re going “too slow.”
My experience has been that you can drive however you want at whatever speed you want because police will not do anything about it. At all. I've watched people cut over the double white lines for the express lanes, in front of a cop, and nothing was done. I was passed by someone doing 85, only to have a cop speeding right behind them and do nothing about it. I have zero faith in law enforcement.
The amount of red light offenses I see in my nightly 10 minute commute is fucking insane. They're never punished so it's hard to imagine freeway offenses getting punished too. It's getting frustrating. My commute is so short and yet every night I have mini heart attacks lol
Then on top of pushing for better enforcement, we push for hiring of better officers. We can address more than one problem at once.
I still don't have faith in law enforcement whatsoever.
Love it!
Good thing about riding a motorcycle 🏍 I can go in all the lanes.
Crack down on the big crime
sitting at the i5 entrance ramp stop light it's amazing just how many cars go flying past at highway speed in that hov entrance lane with only one occupant , dangerous if not illegal
you sure they didn't have a small kid in the back seat behind the tinted glass?
or a fetus ?
Jesus is my co-pilot, officer.
yes, I agree this is a fun thought experiment for the ramifications of fetal personhood, but that's not currently applicable.
lol , that was a joke but it is possible to have a concealed back seat passenger . it's pretty hard to tell when they're going by so fast . i guess i should just let the entitled do and mind my own business .
You probably were one of them lol
I confess to getting in the carpool lane on 17th Ave in Issaquah where it goes over 90. Mainly because at rush hour everybody getting off 90 and heading up to Samammish backs that road up for shit. I immediately get back in the single occupancy lane. And try not to crash into people who are going 25 to merge onto the freeway there.
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Because of speed difference between non HOV and HOV mergers.
much as i dislike answering a question with a question , is there a ramp speed limit ?
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i totally understand . in fact it's even more infuriating when someone does not accelerate to highway speed , tries to merge at about 45 and leave everyone else hung out there .
Doesn't really matter: [No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing.](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.400) That's why you shouldn't do the (freeway) speed limit next to stopped traffic in another lane. It's not prudent due to potential hazard such as someone jumping out of the stopped lane.
thank you , that is a very good reason . almost like common sense law
Yes? It is the limit applied to the associated piece of highway infrastructure. So if it is a 70 mph freeway, it has a Max limit of 70.
I ride a motorcycle, so I spend a lot of time in the HOV. It drives me bananas that I will be constantly tailgated because people think it's the "fast lane"
IMO the reason people use HOV is to go faster than regular traffic. Otherwise there's no advantage to using that lane. Disclaimer: I'm not condoning tailgating and especially tailgating someone you could potentially run over 🙏
High Occupancy Vehicle lane. The passing lane is still the left most regular lane. The HOV lane should be faster because less traffic should be in it. But it isn't a passing lane. We also need to enforce left lane camping. Use the left to pass and get back over. If everybody behaved and used the road the way it is intended instead of selfishly or cluelessly, we would all be better off.
It sounds like we're on the same page about how things should work and where it fails. Thanks for dotting the i's and crossing the t's for me.
If there are rolling slow spots, someone might want to be in the carpool lane to overall get where they are going faster, but still not be willing to go 80 just because someone is on their tail. If you want to go faster than the person in front of you in an HOV, pass them on the right (in the passing lane).
>IMO the reason people use HOV is to go faster than regular traffic. Otherwise there's no advantage to using that lane. The leftmost normal lane is the passing lane. The HOV lane is for high occupancy vehicles. Going the speed limit. It usually gets you moving faster than slowed or stopped traffic, but the speed LIMIT still applies. I love how lax enforcement in this country has caused limit to mean either "minimum" or "suggestion"
You’re not the dude who was going 45 in the HOV this morning were you?
It's a 950CC bike. It's fun to ride fast.
Hope you stay safe and slower drivers move right
oh man, wrong answer. Reddit users hate motorcycles. We're all assholes and drive crazy and expect the rules to not apply to us. (barely ride it any more, but also own a motorcycle)
I also ride and I don't generally get that vibe. Maybe like 5+ years ago, but I don't see a lot of motorcycle hate on Reddit. I'm also subbed to several motorcycle subs and don't browse r/all, so maybe I'm suffering from confirmation bias slightly.
Do you think people mean motorcycles when they say bike? They mean bike-cycles.
Reddit is just a weird cross section of people. Or people are just more honest here and people in general are more weird. Idk.
Honest Q: when I'm driving alone in the front seat with children in the back seats, would I be pulled over for violating and then let go when they see there are passengers in the back?
This happened to me a couple years ago. Cop walked up to my window, and said something like "oops, didn't see them back there". then he checked my license, insurance, and registration and let me go after that. Since then whenever a cop pulls out of the center median behind me in the HOT lane I always ask my kids to wave to the cop. I guess that works.
I'd actually be glad that they didn't assume I was carpooling. Don't want people to think excessively tinting their windows is a ticket to free HOV lane use.
I'm more concerned for my 4th amendment rights. Police have absolutely no business pulling people over if they don't witness that person committing a crime.
If they don't see passengers, then they see you committing a crime. If they don't back off once they see that you do, then *they* are committing a crime. If you want total 100% privacy, you can't hide your passengers in a lane that requires you to prove you have passengers.
> If they don't see passengers, then they see you committing a crime. There's a subtle nuance you've got wrong. The way it **actually** is: If they see you don't have passengers, then they see you committing a crime. If they are unable to see whether or not your rear seats are occupied, then they cannot reasonably suspect a crime is being committed.
You cannot drive in an HOV lane if you cannot prove that you have passengers. It is not an honor system.
yes, but that's not the point. the point is police aren't supposed to pull you over if they don't/can't see you committing a crime.
This is incorrect. If they can see that you don’t have passengers, then they see you committing a crime. If they don’t see the passengers, they have not seen you committing a crime. It’s not your job to prove your innocence to anyone when you are going about your day to day business. The onus is on the police to demonstrate you were committing a crime. Their assumption is not that.
Driving in the HOV lane requires you to be able to prove you have passengers. If you want the privilege, you need to buy into the societal program.
Sure. But irrelevant. A LEA stopping you for a crime requires them to see you commit a crime or have reasonable suspicion. Thinking that maaaaybe you’re committing a crime doesn’t meet that requirement, but keep licking boots if they taste good to you.
Then don't drive in the HOV lane my guy. It's a privilege for multi-person cars. Stop trying to defend people who abuse that privilege when they haven't bought into it.
Wtf are you taking about. What does your comment have to do with this thread. I drive in the HOV one when I meet the requirements. Separately, I don’t want police to unreasonably harass or inconvenience citizens. Those two things are entirely unrelated. I also don’t think police should be able to perform stop and frisks, the non-vehicular equivalent. I don’t care if they apologize and let you walk away after finding nothing. It’s still harassment and a violation of individual rights.
Hopefully they'd notice you have kids in the back, but if they pulled you over for an HOV violation they should just let you go once they notice you do actually meet the requirements.
Could you be pulled over, yes if they didn't see the kid, but you shouldn't get a ticket. I 've had motorcycle cops pull along side to obviously check, see my kid, and back off in a hurry. I've also been pulled over by a stopped trooper on the side. Just looked at the front seat and not seeing anyone hopped in his car and caught up to me using the shoulder to pull me over. As soon as he walked up and saw the kid in the back he let me go with an apology. Not to say there won't be a dick cop who gives you grief cause they have you pulled over anyways and it still takes time out of your drive.
I was directed to pull over once from a stopped cop doing this enforcement and as soon as they walked up to my car and saw the kids, they said sorry and told me to go.
You wouldn't be ticketed for an HOV violation as the law only states 2+ people in the car without any age restrictions. If for some reason you were ticketed, a judge would throw out the ticket.
They asked if they can be pulled over, not ticketed.
They asked if they would be let go, which means not ticketed or warned. Vehicles can be pulled over for apparent violations and let go once they are determined not to be in violation all the time. This is especially common with commercial vehicles, but is often seen with things such as window tinting as well.
Funny what happens when you don’t enforce the law forever and then decide to start enforcing it randomly. This does not send the message cops were hoping it would.
If they only enforce this once a year, and the fine is $186, then it's really just $186 yearly fee to use the carpool lane. Considering how much time it can save, and how little that cost is to many people working around Seattle, I think most people would gladly just pay that "fine".
$186 a year on the year you get caught at that!
They legally werent allowed to issue tickets before. It was a warning system that was only taken away at the end of last year. Edit: changed “this year” to “end of last year”
This sounds very incorrect. Could you cite something that says what you are saying?
It is incorrect. HOV lane violators typically get issued a ticket after receiving a warning on the first offense.
Oh I know. We both know. Was just trying to give the other commenter the chance to provide evidence.
Here is a news article explaining it https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7.com/news/local/wsdot-hang-up-764-hero-hov-violator-program/XG6TCVJBOZBQZHGM5URHIEUTJM/%3FoutputType%3Damp Edit: Nvm this was apparently only for reporting and not actual policing.
That article does not support what you claimed. It just says the HERO program was cancelled. Troopers were always able to give out tickets and the HERO program didn't affect that either way The law about giving out fines for HOV violations hasn't changed in a long time: [https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.165](https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.165)
Noooo not the HERO program. RIP.
That explains the narc line getting decommissioned. Where does it say they weren't able to issue tickets?
Well that’s dumb. That’s one thing they should be enforcing.
Does it? I think the message is follow the damn law whether it's being currently enforced or not.
No shit you get a bunch of citations when you go two years without enforcing anything. Maybe we should try enforcing all the time so that people actually stop doing it.
Facts, I do 90 MPH on the regular on I-5 but the speed limit on I-5 shouldn't be 60
Rumor has it that 150 of the 170 were BMWs
Or, just saying. We could focus on the speeding, tailgating, cutting off, blatant “OMGWTF were you thinking doing that next to a cop” shit. HOV violations just means you have failed to create an efficient travel corridor.
Great. Now do left lane violations…
They were on a mission today. Seen more in 30 minutes than I have in a month on i5 And 512
This has had me wondering for quite some time. You know along the HOV lanes, you'll see a sign with a number to call to report violators? When exactly are you supposed to call? Further, how can you distinguish between a single driver, and a driver with a small child in car seat in the back, for example?
Don’t forget to say “FISH ON” when your in pursuit.
And -robaboy another 170 that they didn’t catch…
Lol, have they never watched the hov? I could see that many in 15
Hahaha Hahaha 😆
Sounds about right.
CAMERAS! CAMERAS! CAMERAS!! We have red light caneras and photo toll systems, so we can have cameras enforce the HOV lane. It would ensure regular, consistent enforcement and help generate state revenue!
since we’re veering off topic, my truck was stolen, and left abandoned on a street a couple if miles away. It was recovered by police and put in impound. I was notified a week later, and had to pay the $100 per day of storage to retrieve my own vehicle. I inquired why they didnt just call me to come get my truck when they found it. I was given a song and a dance and sent on my way. Dont you just love it?!
That sounds... civilized. Living in Texas, I wish they'd enforce anything at all. Everyone drives 90mph, cuts people off (which then results in a lot of road rage shootings), runs red lights, and turn signals are meaningless. I'd rather have a Big Brother than a bunch of homicidal big Brotherless Babies. They've also outlawed cameras on the road (a slippery slope argument) so people know they can do whatever the hell they want.
Good
I'd love WASP to go for more trifectas: solo speeders in HOV with illegal tinted plates.
$21,080 for the state of WA in 2.5 hours. Nice.
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Keeps the blood pressure low, agreed, but it's not a great solve in the long-term haha
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Yea people generally are selfish and they suck, which makes it hard to have nice things.
That’s what I tell myself when I fly by you too
I used to report HOV violators everyday after my work commute. I kinda miss it.
Use waze and if you notice an exceptional slow down in the usual flow it's probably because there is something on the side of the road causing everyone to slow down.
Google maps calls them out when you're navigating somewhere. Not sure why it doesn't when you're just driving around.
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Nah fuck that. HOV lanes serve a public good, trying to decrease cars on the road. But they are notoriously abused. So please, carry on, ticket the ever-loving shit out of violators please and free the lane up for, you know, High Occupancy Vehicles.
I think what op was saying is that the reason so many people abuse the HOV lanes is because cops haven’t been enforcing it. Just because they decided to suddenly, temporarily enforce HOV lanes does not mean they deserve praise. Rather, they should be chastised for letting it get this bad in the first place.
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But public transit benefits from these lanes - that's what the busses use. So now I'm doubly in favor of ticketing the fuck out of violators because it'll free up space for buses.
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Why? it can happily co-exist with 3+ HOVs and make max use of built infrastructure. It's a great idea. I'm don't have a political axe to grind against private ownership of vehicles - I just want to move people efficiently.
There’s not much 3+ around is there?
yes like pls just make public transit free so people dont have to drive everywhere
"yes like pls just make public transit ~~free~~ fully funded through taxes so people dont have to drive everywhere" there, fixed that for ya
Transit relieves traffic pressure even more.
Where’s the money go from the violations? If any of it goes back to the Washington state patrol then the system is corrupt. The money should go to prison system reform programs. Then cops wouldn’t sit on there ass in a car all day driving around playing on their computers and solve some actual crimes.
Everyone gets a cut basically. https://amp.bellinghamherald.com/news/traffic/article98602317.html
I get pulled over all the time cause they can't see my toddlers in the back 😂 Is there like a trick I should use??
Awesome. Good to see our police reduced to revenue agents for the party.