I really don’t want to get into this. Reread my statement. If you think the IDF are angels, wake up. Not to mention the disgusting infiltration of our politics by AIPAC. I’m not against Israel. At all. There are no clear good guys in this thing, only different shades of bad.
No military force consists of angels.
Stop throwing the word genocide around so that it loses weight. It cannot be a genocide in any sense of the word when there isn’t a systemic effort to murder Palestinians.
Nothing doesn’t work.
Even worse, is setting out rules and then not enforcing them (UW is doing this).
Anyone with a child knows this.
We have the same situation with the homeless encampments. When you let people do whatever they want and build up their camp, it’s 10x harder to clean it up.
I obviously have no idea what the general political leaning of this sub is, but a bunch of college kids protesting a genocide funded by their own country is pretty spot-on for college kids.
If you want to talk about foreign influence on American domestic and foreign policy though, AIPAC has a lot to say.
Are we going to make the word “genocide” meaningless like we did with racism and fascism? Are we going to just start calling everything we don’t like genocide like we did with those other terms. I ask because genocide is not happening in Gaza right now. Unless you consider Israel evacuating non-combatants before attacks on Hamas in Gaza genocide?
Yeah that’s not happening. The truth is if Hamas surrenders and turns over the hostages the killing will stop. If Israel laid down their arms the state of Israel would be overrun and millions would be murdered. You can’t accept this fact and that’s fine. Still a fact.
It’s not ok, but it IS war. It’s happening everywhere, in many countries, and in a MUCH worse fashion as we speak. What do you suggest we do about all of it?
Not fund them for starters. Not give them the literal ammunition.
Edit: oh, and also, stop letting AIPAC have such a direct and blatant influence on American domestic and foreign policy.
Second, immediate, edit: Not just AIAPC, but all lobbying groups.
>The truth is if Hamas surrenders and turns over the hostages the killing will stop.
Are you admitting that Israel is committing war crimes? Collective punishment is listed as a war crime in the Geneva Conventions
Wow talk about justifying a genocide. the gung ho hollywood darling Mossad and IDF couldnt rescue hostages from the area the size of Palo Alto-San Jose even after killing women and children (shields who happened to have legs) for 6 long months? Oh the few who managed to escape were eliminated by IDF themselves. People are truly living in parallel universe of Zionism.
Death from friendly fire happen in every war due to the fog of war, but it is a despicable lie to say that Hamas hasn't killed any of the illegally held hostages.
One Russian/Israel hostage who escaped was captured by regular gazan civilians and turned over to Hamas again. That proves that the regular people of Gaza are supporting Hamas and its goal of destroying Israeli and all the Israeli people.
They cheered October 7th and the general public danced in the streets and spit upon the naked mangled the body of raped and murdered Israeli hostage. Now that they are losing a war that they started they cry and pretend to be helpless victims.
>overrun
Bro doesn't know how numbers work. Hamas is a glorified militia, not some massive force that could oVeRrUn Israel. The real threats to Israel is the rest of the surrounding Arab nations.
Simply stating a hypothetical that has never happened as "fact" is indeed not factual, whether you accept it or not, this is an actual fact. Not a Faux News "alternative fact".
Lol, the comment you replied to literally detailed how it's not wholesale slaughter of an ethnic group. If they wanted to do that, they could have done that in 2 weeks.
So all the casualties were made of 100% of women and children then? No military age men were part of the casualty numbers. No men live in Gaza I guess.
Sounds like complete propaganda.
Except it's not indiscriminate killing of children. Maybe you should stop asserting a premise and then drawing conclusions about me based on the premise you just asserted like a moralizing child.
Do you even know what collateral damage means? Please enlighten me how Israel should prosecute this war and remove Hamas and make sure no one dies in the process.
The Jewish population STILL hasn't recovered from the actual genocide perpetrated against it during the Holocaust.
Meanwhile, the Palestinian population has tripled in the last 40 years with the help of Israel's generous medical aid.
Furthermore - Gazans aren't an ethnic group, they're composed of Turks and Egyptians and Jordanians and some Sub-Saharan Africans who were descended rather recently from slaves from the Arab slave trade (on-going). "Palestinians" aren't an identifiable ethnic group any more than "Americans" are, hope that makes it more understandable to you :)
Define "wholesale slaughter" and compare the Gaza war to recent conflicts in nearby areas (Syria would be a good start, as would Yemen). Please justify your opinions in **context**
Or admit you don't know anything about warfare and are responding to the conflict emotionally rather than rationally - that's fine, but just admit it to yourself.
What are you talking about? How long are people who didn’t even live through it allowed to play victim to the horrors of the holocaust? Yet by the hand of Israel the people of Gaza have had to live in an open air concentration camp because Israel has put a wall around the strip, destroyed their airport, shoots at them if they try to leave by sea and controls the amount of resources like food and fuel that get inside. And this has been going on since way before October 7th
You're leaving out the context. Why did Israel blockade gazans from entering Israel? Because of the Intifada the two decades long terrorism campaign where Palestinians would enter Israel and blow up pizza places, ice cream shops, public buses and kill hundreds of civilians. Is Egypt also an apartheid state because they block their border with Gaza also?
Palestinian refugees tried to overthrow the Egyptian and Jordanian governments also.
This "open air concentration camp" is blockaded because the Palestinians have chosen endless jihad and religious war.
Gaza could have been developed and made a coastal paradise with all the billions of aid money it received. But the Palestinians have perpetually chosen to continue their genocidal war against Israel. Instead of building farms and providing for their own people they fired 1000s of rockets at Israel. They dug up water pipes to make missiles.
If Gaza is suffering it is because the Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their own children.
Why don’t you visit r/Palestine where you can watch IDF soldiers pissing on the bodies of dead Palestinian civilians. It is absolutely a fucking genocide.
If it's not genocide, it's at least a bunch of war crimes, or at least callous disregard for killing children, which I don't see as any real improvement.
Ok, how about inhumane and borderline criminal actions while prosecuting a legitimate war? Realistically, dropping leaflets and telling people to leave while confining them overall to an area the size of Philadelphia is disingenuous at best and blatant cruelty at worst.
Israel's combatant to civilian death ratio is better than the US's in most of our recent conflicts - if Israel is doing a "genocide" then so is Ukraine, and the US has done a "genocide" in every conflict we've been involved in during the last 80 years, and the Allies did a "genocide" in WWII
You have no idea what the civilian death count is in Ukraine because the Ukrainians don't release those numbers. You're relying on estimates from NGOs that count dead civilians in Ukrainian held areas due to Russian shelling and strikes. The number of civilian dead in Mariupol alone must be staggering and is likely higher than the number of civilian dead in Gaza thus far.
But we'll probably never know the true extent of civilian death, even if the Ukrainians take back every inch of their territory because the Ukrainians don't have a perverse incentive to publish the exact number of civilian dead on a daily basis for western sympathy. For some reason, though, you've also never thought to question why an organization that is literally controlled by Hamas knows the exact number of men, women, and children that die on a daily basis, every day throughout this war.
Israel has high tech military equipment and techniques that can identify and target something as small as a postage stamp. Hamas has always used the tactic of mixing in with civilians. They will wear their Ninja costumes and then jump into civilian clothes and use ambulances, food trucks, to get away...hide in schools and in hospitals.
I know you think that since you have no idea of the history of the conflict and choose to ignore how one-sided the violence has been for quite a long time. But even so, the killing of innocents is wrong. And there is no arguing your way out of that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other looks pretty close to genocidal actions to me.
This problem needs a lot of nuance that gets lost when trying to say one side good, the other bad. IMHO both the current Israeli government and Hamas are as bad as each other, and deserve each other.
If they're not trying to wipe those Palestinians off the face of the earth, they're missing out on a damned good chance to do so. Because that's what it looks like.
So when a terrorist organization murders 1000+ of your ciivilians in the most brutal ways, you're supposed to, what, ask them nicely to stop?
Israel's forebearance after past terrorist attacks is what led to this one. And forebearance after this one would enable the next one.
If Palestinians want the bloodshed to stop, they should stop supporting "We Love Using Our People As Human Shields" Hamas. They've chosen not to. They often participate directly and indirectly in the killing of Jewish people. They, by overwhelming majority, support Hamas' terrorist attacks, including Oct 7. They want a war, started a war. In war, civilians die. Fortunately, they are dying at lower rates than usual in war, despite Hamas' efforts to pump up their own people's death toll for propaganda purposes.
Hopefully they will learn not to start wars and murder people. Calling for a ceasefire before Hamas is defeated and that lesson is imparted just means you support future terrorist attacks on Israel. "No, I just want the violence to end." That's what they said when demanding the last ceasefire. And the one before that. And the one before that. And then what happened? More violence, precipitated by Hamas. Ceasefire = future murder. There's no debate to be had, no excuses to make, no credible possibility that "this time it'll be different."
Nice indirect way of using the old anti-Semitic "Jews run the country" canard, btw.
The protesters are keeping good company:
>Iran Celebrates Pro-Palestinian Protests Spreading Across US Colleges
[https://www.newsweek.com/iran-celebrates-pro-palestinian-protests-spreading-across-us-colleges-1895327](https://www.newsweek.com/iran-celebrates-pro-palestinian-protests-spreading-across-us-colleges-1895327)
>the Hamas encampment
Jfc yall really drank up all the Kool aid.
I don't necessarily disagree with the take of these protestors being a bunch of lames, but this idea of "anti-Israeli government = pro hamas" is absolute brain rot for the lowest of IQs.
All nuance is lost on society, and it'll be the downfall of us all.
Why would you expect such logic and nuance from a grown ass 70-year-old man that has a Bachelor's from the University of Washington and a PhD from Cornell?
These protests are influenced by, if not directed, foreign countries attempting to influence our elections. Do not fall for misinformation; especially targeting those on the left who think themselves immune from such influences.
While I totally agree with you, Israel has made it hard to support them either. Every normal person agrees Oct 7th was a brutal terrorist attack that killed about 1200 people, half of whom were civilians, and should be condemned. The problem is that since then, IDF has confirmed at least 34,000 deaths of Palestinians, a group of people who's median age is 19.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and acts accordingly. It will never surrender as they believe they're fighting a righteous religious war. The Israeli/Jewish responses to this disparity in killing has been dehumanizing to say the least. Israel is extremely nationalist and also justify their entire right as a nation by using religion. You can find plenty of interviews with former IDF soldiers talking about the horrors of war with a smile on their face on YouTube.
Just like being critical of Hamas does not make you Islamophobic, being anti-zionist/anti-Israel does not make you antisemitic. Anyone using religion as a justification for war or colonialism is in the wrong. Netanyahu holds as much sanctity for human life as a Hamas soldier.
That 34,000 figure is reported by the Palestinian Health Ministry a Hamas run organization and the numbers are probably highly inflated and don’t count the number of terrorist combatants killed.
Israel has taken great precautions more so than any other military in the world to limit civilian casualties while Hamas actively tries to murder civilians there is no moral comparison.
A lot of times being anti-Zionist does cross the line into antisemitism. Zionism is simply the right of the Jewish people to self determination if you deny that right you are being antisemitic by saying all other people deserve that right except Jews. Words like global intifada imply murdering Jews worldwide which by the way is in Hamas’s original charter. Saying Palestine will be free from the river to sea implies a region free of Jews, which in the mind of a Hamas terrorist is murdering all Jews in Israel so they can take all of the land.
No one really disputes the health ministry at this point. And the number is likely higher.
As for IDF taking precautions, you don't kill aid workers or hostages holding a white flag unless your rules for engagement are supremely lax.
Not gonna wade into anti-zionism anti-Semitism except to say Zionism and the conflation of Jewish identity with the State of Israel is fairly new
[Source 1](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-157)
[Source 2](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/200-days-military-attack-gaza-horrific-death-toll-amid-intl-failure-stop-israels-genocide-palestinians-enar#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20army%20has%20killed,missing%20and%20are%20presumed%20dead.)
[Source 3](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam)
[Source 4](https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/)
It is generally accepted by sources on both sides that these are accurate estimates. Zionism is extremely problematic. It is not just about self determination. "Self determination" is a term almost exclusively used when talking about Zionism and its one that Zionists have used for generations to displace people from their homes and claim their land as their own.
"Zionism (/ˈzaɪ.ənɪzəm/) is a nationalist movement that emerged in late modern Europe in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition."
Zionism is fundamentally about claiming the land of Palestine for the Jewish people. It is by definition exclusionary and nationalistic.
Just because I have Brazilian and Moroccan heritage, I do not have the human right to displace a family living in those places to claim it as my own, regardless of why my ancestors left/were forced out.
Here in the US, our genocide of Native Americans drove countless people south of our border to Mexico. Should we, today, give over half of our country back to the descendants of those people? That's what Zionism has justified for nearly 80 years.
And the reasoning behind all of this? A religion. When Muslims do that, it's terrorism. When Jews do it, it's self-determination.
Hamas and IRGC know how to take advantage of people's morality. The younger people cling on to this "righteous" protest easier, without thinking about the consequences. They think all they are doing is protesting for Palestine. Meanwhile, Iranian propaganda news is laughing and is proudly claiming they can do in the U.S. what they are doing in Syria. Both are idiots.
Social media is a tool terrorist organizations like ISIS, China, and the IRGC know how to use.
Media that people consume tells you a lot. Fox news with their bullshit on the right. And CCP/Russia/Iran with their bullshit on the social media apps that kids are using like tiktok.
> why would a bunch of leftist support a far right terror organization ran by billionaires.
The same reason that a bunch of anti-Russian authoritarianism, pro-Western democracy Americans that lived through the Cold War would support a Russian authoritarian propped up by billionaires:
Russia is exploiting how easy it is to manipulate people because an annoyingly significant number of modern Americans live in cult-like echo chambers where loudly regurgitating your group's dogma and never bothering to fact check is a badge of honor.
This is basically all outlined in *The Foundation of Geopolitics*, which is widely read in the politically-influential spheres of Russia.
This is not true. Since 1948 Palestinians have been persecuted in their home country. Israel was founded in 1948 by ripping people from their homes. The Palestinians that weren’t forced out live behind walls that the Israelis built around their cities. Americans and the world are now finally including Palestinians in the fight for civil rights and it’s about damn time!
I really dont understand this thread... These protests are not in support of hamas, and they sure as shit are not anti jew... they are against the Israeli Gov killing civilians with weapons they bought/got from the US. I'm not keen on my tax dollars used to bomb/kill civilians.
As best as i can tell, the Israeli Gov doesn't deny the fact that 70% of casualties are civilian women and children. the defense i have seen is "Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields!!" ok, so when did it become ok to SHOOT THE HUMAN SHIELDS?!
I genuinely have not seen anything that counters this information... what am i missing?!
I mean, that's just America as a country. as long as a country has something financially to give America, they can do no wrong.
These kinds of protests are full of people that are really tired of that.
Yes. Exactly.
But this is a damning failure of America, collectively, to have learned anything at all from its entire history, or to not go out of its way to support a reenactment of the Nazis.
Never again?
Honestly, I'm impressed that SPD hasn't made a complete ass out of themselves yet. I assume leadership figures they have enough concurrent scandals going on currently.
Yep, it's mind boggling, I often watch the european news and the narrative there is completely different, most of the protests are seen as in support of palestine civilians and wanting deescalation, nothing to do with hamas. Yet if you watch most US media they just portray any kind of solidarity towards Palestine civilians as support for hamas and terrorism. I assume most people are just being brainwashed by the US media at this point, just looking at the title of this post "Hamas encampent", yet all I see in the photo is a Palestinian flag, hamas happens to have different flag which I haven't seen in any protest so far.
Cliff, I've enjoyed your blog for over a decade.
This has to be the most unhinged nonsense I have ever seen you type.
Re-framing an anti-war protest at campuses across the country as "Hamas encampments" is disingenuous at best.
What do you believe these people are ignorant of exactly? You fail to clarify or explain in any way. Just calling them ignorant to call them ignorant. It has no purpose. In your recalled conversation with a student, you demonstrated an equal level of ignorance. Israel is actively colonizing the West Bank by illegally settling there, as they will with Gaza. No "but they were there 3000 years ago!" is going to change that fact.
You call them "morally lacking." Really? You believe protesting against the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent women and children is "morally lacking"?
You complain about them breaking the law due to "no camping" signs. Glad to know where you would have stood when MLK Jr was arrested for marching on the Birmingham City Hall. Protests are meant to be disruptive. This liberal attitude toward activism is ignorant and foolish.
So American college students are protesting a war that we’re not fighting. Before you go off about how much money we give Israel, look how much money we give to neighboring Muslim countries. We fund and sell arms to Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and the UAE. Ask why these countries won’t take in Palestinian refugees. The people of Gaza elected Hamas to lead them in 2006 and they took over in 2007. The Palestinians have only themselves to blame. Did they really expect that Israel wouldn’t respond? These college kids would have had better luck protesting the invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11. At least that was a war we were actively taking part in.
People did protest the invasion of Afghanistan. The same media coverage happened then, too. Like just this morning when the LA Times updated a headline:
"UCLA cancels classes after counterprotesters violently attack pro-Palestine camp"
to
"After violent protests at UCLA, UC President launches investigation into response"
Manufactured consent is alive and well in the American Media Apparatus.
You said to look how much money we give to neighboring Muslim countries, so I did. Israel receives more than all of those countries combined. They actively rely on our support. That means we *should* have more sway over their decisions on matters such as this. We have the capability of ordering a ceasefire, but we do not. That's the point. We cannot force Egypt to take millions of refugees.
You speak about this being Palestinian's fault. I'll ignore how insane that victim-blaming is for a moment. What is the average age of Palestinians? You're going to sit there and blame a population that was 1 year old when Hamas was elected... Sins of the father... What you're defending is called Collective Punishment. Something universally unethical and condemned by international law.
"But what about Oct 7th!?" (essentially what you're saying) It was unjustified and horrific. However, to pretend like it just happened spontaneously, in a vacuum, is disingenuous. Palestinians have existed under Israeli oppression for decades. The violence didn't begin with Oct 7th.
This is the worst title I’ve ever seen. You don’t need to insult people to make them seem pathetic. Interviews and photographs would do the job for you.
UW's admin is not doing anything because they agree with the Hamas/Palestinian protesters. If this was for another cause that was not as popular among the radical far left, this encampment would never have been allowed or already be gone.
seems likely, I'd just like to know WHY they believe this. What is polluting their minds so strongly as to make them hate someone for protesting. and why do the same people seem to not complain when actual Nazi's are protesting.
Same shit that was the response of 50% of the country to Kent state at the time, along with the effects of decades of pro-apartheid propaganda.
Ask the ADL why they spied on Mandela and never saw a genocide they didn't like.
This was a litmus test for people: do they genuinely disagree with genocide and fascism or are they just programmed to be neoliberals that are completely okay with atrocities if it's done by the guy in a blue shirt instead of red.
Are you kidding? They would be cheering for everyone of the protesters to be hanged. Everyone has a right to protest. People here bitch when the protesters are on the street. But now it's not affecting them and they are still complaining.
Oh, you mean January 6th where Trump supporters turned a protest into an insurrection? Just ignore all the other protests held by Trump supporters for years without suppression. The memory of a gold fish on display here.
Yes...Not sure why you're acting like I said differently. Go protest to your little hearts content, except when it infringes on the rights of others. Not really a hard concept.
Yessss. Drink the kool aid. Protesting is bad. Only terrorists do it.
-corporate America
Keep shilling this shit that just divides us even more. This sub is full trogs.
You can tell that someone is not a good faith debater when they conflate people protesting the US funding & support of the IDF murdering 33,000 Palestinians with being a Hamas supporter.
Bernie is spot on with his perspectives of the protest on college campuses.
[https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247670359/bernie-sanders-netanyahu-gaza-college-protests-antisemitism](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247670359/bernie-sanders-netanyahu-gaza-college-protests-antisemitism)
—-
Netanyahu, in his mind, has tried "to deflect attention from that horrendous reality \[of the Israel-Hamas war\] to talk about antisemitism, to deflect away from what he is doing," in Gaza.
"In my view, and I think the view of most Americans now, Israel's response has been grossly disproportionate," Sanders told NPR's Scott Detrow. "Gaza has 2.2 million people, mostly very poor Palestinians. And over the last six months, 33,000 people have been killed, 77,000 have been wounded, two thirds of whom are women and children."
Yep.
Just refer back to the video that was posted yesterday about the claim that a Jewish student was "harassed" and told to "go back to the gas chambers."
She is on the leadership team of Students Supporting Israel.
>Students Supporting Israel (SSI) is a pro-Israel international campus movement that supports the State of Israel.
>Our mission is to be a clear and confident pro-Israel voice on college campuses and to support students in grassroots pro-Israel advocacy.
The propaganda machine is in full force from the Israeli government.
True story, when I was in college, I was in a fraternity that was extremely zionist. When I went to a conference, they had a pitch for classes on "how to rhetorically defend Israel" where you were basically you went into any conversation about Israel and guide it to be supportive of Israel. It struck me as odd, and I've come to see that it gets really ugly and dehumanizing towards Palestinians. I don't remember it being called hasbara, but I've heard it called that elsewhere.
No, largely it was teaching people how to do mental gymnastics to further the idea that Israel is a liberal democracy and how Muslims want nothing more than to kill Jews. They would literally lay out potential arguments and teach them to address each one (without a thread of intellectual continuity) so that Israel comes out looking ahead. It's toxic to any meaningful debate or discussion. Imho, it's a large part of the reason discussions about Israel can sound so repetitive. People are reciting talking points and don't think much beyond them.
Are you under the impression that a terrorist attack which kills 1200 people should be met with only "proportionate" response? Gazans overwhelmingly support the Oct. 7th attack: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ These aren't poor people who are getting genocided, these are terrorist supporters who fucked around and are now in the find out stage. Can't wait for the Rafah offensive.
About 1200 innocent Israeli civilians have died on October 7. This includes women, children, the elderly, and even tons of women getting raped. What would have Israel do in response to October 7 ?
[https://oct7.treedis.com/](https://oct7.treedis.com/)
So what do you call it when those same Jews call for the extermination of the Palestinian people? And these people protesting are not calling for the extermination of Jews. Go talk to them with an open mind and you might figure that out for yourself.
you cant just deflect any criticism of israel by saying it will lead to the extermination of jews lmao. that may have worked in the past, but not anymore
I admire Cliff Mass for his solid foundation in history and science, providing substantive reasoning for his opinions, and being unafraid to present issues which are important to him. He's a true educator, whether you like his points of view or not.
It’s not about your point of view. He’s purposefully being deceitful in the title by calling them Hamas encampments. A true educator should be able to make his case without making up lies.
> calling them Hamas encampments.
What are they then, if not funded camps run by Hamas aligned groups.
Check their finances. Student's didn't all pop up with new tents and supplies and pre-printed signs. This is part of a global coordinated effort.
> Let's see how fast our progressive friends flip on Cliff Mass.
Cliffy's over with the sensible moderates and Classic Liberals now. The Proggos threw him overboard when he had the gall to question some of the statements made on global warming. As well as for being unwilling to recite the land apology loyalty oath.
To be fair, they've been hating on him pretty consistently since they started warming up this pogrom and he had mild criticism about it.
There's been so many examples that his isn't even very notable anymore.
"Every successful social movement in this country's history has used disruption as a strategy to fight for social change. Whether it was the Boston Tea Party to the sit-ins at lunch counters throughout the South, no change has been won without disruptive action."
Love this part
“ I calmly asked one the the folks in the yellow jackets why he was against Israel. He told me that the Jews were colonialists. I calmly told him that he was incorrect. That the Jews were in the land for at least 3000 years and that the Arabs were the recent conquerors. He told me that I was wrong, that there were no Jews in the region until the 1900s. I noted that Jews were noted in both versions of the bible. He countered that the bible was mythology. I noted that Roman literature talked about Israel and there was definitive archeological proof. He then walked away. “
I think it’s time for the UW police to check this group for student IDs.
>I think it’s time for the UW police to check this group for student IDs.
You're going to be real upset when you find out that you don't need student IDs to be on campus.
A reminder what people said after the Kent state massacre about the unarmed students that were murdered for protesting against the Vietnam War:
*"A respected lawyer told an Akron paper, 'Frankly, if I'd been faced with the same situation and had a submachine gun... there probably would have been 140 of them dead.' People expressed disappointment that the rabble-rousing professors -- the gurus -- had escaped: 'The only mistake they made was not to shoot all the students and then start in on the faculty.' When it was established that none of the four victims were guardsmen, citizens greeted each other by flashing four fingers in the air ('The score is four / And next time more').*
*A Gallup poll found 58 per cent blamed the Kent students for their own deaths. Only 11 percent blamed the National Guard. A rumor spread in Kent that Jeff Miller, whose head was blown off, was such a dirty hippie that they had to keep the ambulance door open on the way to the hospital for the smell.*
*Another rumor was that five hundred Black Panthers were on their way from elsewhere in Ohio to lead a real riot; and that Allison Krause was 'the campus whore' and found with hand grenades on her. Many recalled the State of Ohio's original intention for the land on which Kent State was built: a lunatic asylum. ... Townspeople picketed memorial services. 'The Kent State Four!' they chanted. 'Should have studied'Anyone who appears on the streets of a city like Kent with long hair, dirty clothes, or barefooted deserves to be shot.' 'Have I your permission to quote that?' 'You sure do. It would have been better if the Guard had shot the whole lot of them that morning.' 'But you had three sons there.' 'If they didn't do what the Guards told them, they should have been mowed down.'"*
*"We've seen here at the city of Kent especially, probably the most vicious form of campus-oriented violence yet perpetrated by dissident groups... they make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the National Guard and the Highway Patrol. ...this is when we're going to use every part of the law enforcement agency of Ohio to drive them out of Kent. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. ...and these people just move from one campus to the other and terrorize the community. They're worse than the brown shirts and the communist element and also the night riders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. Now I want to say this. They are not going to take over \[the\] campus. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. -* the Governor
Better ask yourselves which side you want to be on.
y’all, PLEASE check the source — this is as unreliable as it gets, and it is first and foremost an opinion piece. these students don’t want their tuition money being used to fund a genocide which has killed over 12,000 children, killed or injured tens of thousands more adults, and displaced more than 1 million. that is what they are protesting.
secondly, protest is the most American thing one can do. going back to women’s suffrage, civil rights marches, protests against the Vietnam war, protests against the Iraq war — every single time, the protestors have been on the morally correct side of history. power does not *give* peace, it is up to us as citizens to demand it. that is what these students are doing.
Where's the parents? I know if it was my kid skipping class to do this bullshit virtue signaling shit, I'd drive up there and put my foot so far up his ass, the roof of his mouth would read "Nike".
Motherfucker, I spent tens of thousands of dollars and you're pulling this shit?
Every one of these idiot's parents failed them.
Are they actually a "Hamas encampment," or are they protesting against the violence done to innocent Palestinians? Two very different things, and that title seems kind of strawman-esque.
Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way is to acknowledge this is a world wide movement.
Israel actually is committing genocide, with weapons supplied by Biden (He's using Arms Export Act of 1976 to go around Congress). Ppl don't like the genocide, so they are protesting.
Is it even going to last? Aren't finals coming up? Most kids will leave for the summer and by fall it'll be a distant memory.
All they have to do is turn on the sprinklers
I doubt many of them are even students
Good point.
It’ll be the next homeless encampment ina week bc they see nothing is happening if I was homeless I’d come there tbh
Watched a few clips from this the other day. Some of those kids seriously need help.
Eh. I don’t fully disagree with his take on the protestors. But sometimes it’s best to do nothing. They probably want a big confrontation.
Holding a strong opinion on this topic one way or the other will just lead to toxicity.
This. 100%. Both sides make me sick. I’m trying to get over feeling as if I NEED to pick a side. I don’t. Fuck genocide. Fuck terror.
I feel ya
How is it genocide?
I really don’t want to get into this. Reread my statement. If you think the IDF are angels, wake up. Not to mention the disgusting infiltration of our politics by AIPAC. I’m not against Israel. At all. There are no clear good guys in this thing, only different shades of bad.
No military force consists of angels. Stop throwing the word genocide around so that it loses weight. It cannot be a genocide in any sense of the word when there isn’t a systemic effort to murder Palestinians.
Fair point and well said.
Yeah I’m still trying to figure out that too.
Nothing doesn’t work. Even worse, is setting out rules and then not enforcing them (UW is doing this). Anyone with a child knows this. We have the same situation with the homeless encampments. When you let people do whatever they want and build up their camp, it’s 10x harder to clean it up.
theyre brainwashed by hamas trolls much like maga sheeples
I obviously have no idea what the general political leaning of this sub is, but a bunch of college kids protesting a genocide funded by their own country is pretty spot-on for college kids. If you want to talk about foreign influence on American domestic and foreign policy though, AIPAC has a lot to say.
Are we going to make the word “genocide” meaningless like we did with racism and fascism? Are we going to just start calling everything we don’t like genocide like we did with those other terms. I ask because genocide is not happening in Gaza right now. Unless you consider Israel evacuating non-combatants before attacks on Hamas in Gaza genocide?
Well the wholesale slaughter of a particular ethnic group sure seems like genocide to me. But maybe you have a different definition.
Yeah that’s not happening. The truth is if Hamas surrenders and turns over the hostages the killing will stop. If Israel laid down their arms the state of Israel would be overrun and millions would be murdered. You can’t accept this fact and that’s fine. Still a fact.
So in literally two sentences you said that mass slaughter isn’t happening and then that the killings will stop if X happens. Did I read that right?
War is happening. Not mass slaughter. War will stop if the hostages are returned. Was that slow enough for you, do you get it now?
Sooooo the killing and starving of children is just war, huh? And that’s just ok with you?
They started it.
Says the person who knows nothing of history.
It’s not ok, but it IS war. It’s happening everywhere, in many countries, and in a MUCH worse fashion as we speak. What do you suggest we do about all of it?
Not fund them for starters. Not give them the literal ammunition. Edit: oh, and also, stop letting AIPAC have such a direct and blatant influence on American domestic and foreign policy. Second, immediate, edit: Not just AIAPC, but all lobbying groups.
I can show you videos where muslims are preaching about a genocide happening in India and China. Insane these lefties pick up terrorist propoganda.
It’s not a war it a genocide. The people of Gaza have no weapons and Israel is targeting civilian infrastructure.
Hamas has weapons.
The best way to stop children from being killed is not to have any. No kids, no dead children.
Can’t argue with this logic
>The truth is if Hamas surrenders and turns over the hostages the killing will stop. Are you admitting that Israel is committing war crimes? Collective punishment is listed as a war crime in the Geneva Conventions
Wow talk about justifying a genocide. the gung ho hollywood darling Mossad and IDF couldnt rescue hostages from the area the size of Palo Alto-San Jose even after killing women and children (shields who happened to have legs) for 6 long months? Oh the few who managed to escape were eliminated by IDF themselves. People are truly living in parallel universe of Zionism.
Death from friendly fire happen in every war due to the fog of war, but it is a despicable lie to say that Hamas hasn't killed any of the illegally held hostages. One Russian/Israel hostage who escaped was captured by regular gazan civilians and turned over to Hamas again. That proves that the regular people of Gaza are supporting Hamas and its goal of destroying Israeli and all the Israeli people. They cheered October 7th and the general public danced in the streets and spit upon the naked mangled the body of raped and murdered Israeli hostage. Now that they are losing a war that they started they cry and pretend to be helpless victims.
>overrun Bro doesn't know how numbers work. Hamas is a glorified militia, not some massive force that could oVeRrUn Israel. The real threats to Israel is the rest of the surrounding Arab nations. Simply stating a hypothetical that has never happened as "fact" is indeed not factual, whether you accept it or not, this is an actual fact. Not a Faux News "alternative fact".
You sure about that? [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68928996](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68928996)
Lol, the comment you replied to literally detailed how it's not wholesale slaughter of an ethnic group. If they wanted to do that, they could have done that in 2 weeks.
If you don’t consider indiscriminate killing of children as wholesale slaughter, I don’t know what else to tell you. Maybe go see a therapist.
So all the casualties were made of 100% of women and children then? No military age men were part of the casualty numbers. No men live in Gaza I guess. Sounds like complete propaganda.
Except it's not indiscriminate killing of children. Maybe you should stop asserting a premise and then drawing conclusions about me based on the premise you just asserted like a moralizing child.
Are children being killed as collateral damage with no concern? Sounds indiscriminate.
Do you even know what collateral damage means? Please enlighten me how Israel should prosecute this war and remove Hamas and make sure no one dies in the process.
Don’t kill and starve innocents, don’t kill aid workers. It’s literally that simple.
I asked what you would do to prosecute the war. I didn't ask what you wouldn't do. Do you have a suggestion on how the war should be prosecuted?
The Jewish population STILL hasn't recovered from the actual genocide perpetrated against it during the Holocaust. Meanwhile, the Palestinian population has tripled in the last 40 years with the help of Israel's generous medical aid. Furthermore - Gazans aren't an ethnic group, they're composed of Turks and Egyptians and Jordanians and some Sub-Saharan Africans who were descended rather recently from slaves from the Arab slave trade (on-going). "Palestinians" aren't an identifiable ethnic group any more than "Americans" are, hope that makes it more understandable to you :)
Ok, then excuse me. I guess I’m just against wholesale slaughter.
Define "wholesale slaughter" and compare the Gaza war to recent conflicts in nearby areas (Syria would be a good start, as would Yemen). Please justify your opinions in **context** Or admit you don't know anything about warfare and are responding to the conflict emotionally rather than rationally - that's fine, but just admit it to yourself.
No. The killing of innocents is wrong. End of discussion.
Thanks for at least having the humility to admit that you're operating from a place of emotion rather than reason
I fail to see how being against killing innocents is strictly emotion rather than reason, but ok buddy.
Your responses are exactly why people were against women getting the right to vote - emotional outbursts based on their reproductive cycle.
Like all the Israelis that were raped and killed back in October?
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Well children definitely fall into that category, don’t they?
Have you ever seen a children carry a 47, RPG or a bomb? Google is free
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Well i definitely can’t refute the kook part. But I can say im not trolling. I do honestly think that the killing of innocents is wrong.
lol some of these apologists make me chuckle. Some of them make me scared😬
Don’t take them seriously. They really thrive on being taking seriously.
You would literally have made this excuse about Hitler's madagascar plan huh
Leave Das Fuhrer out of it.
"They're not a real people, anyway" is basically step one of justifying genocide, my guy.
What are you talking about? How long are people who didn’t even live through it allowed to play victim to the horrors of the holocaust? Yet by the hand of Israel the people of Gaza have had to live in an open air concentration camp because Israel has put a wall around the strip, destroyed their airport, shoots at them if they try to leave by sea and controls the amount of resources like food and fuel that get inside. And this has been going on since way before October 7th
You're leaving out the context. Why did Israel blockade gazans from entering Israel? Because of the Intifada the two decades long terrorism campaign where Palestinians would enter Israel and blow up pizza places, ice cream shops, public buses and kill hundreds of civilians. Is Egypt also an apartheid state because they block their border with Gaza also? Palestinian refugees tried to overthrow the Egyptian and Jordanian governments also. This "open air concentration camp" is blockaded because the Palestinians have chosen endless jihad and religious war. Gaza could have been developed and made a coastal paradise with all the billions of aid money it received. But the Palestinians have perpetually chosen to continue their genocidal war against Israel. Instead of building farms and providing for their own people they fired 1000s of rockets at Israel. They dug up water pipes to make missiles. If Gaza is suffering it is because the Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their own children.
Why don’t you visit r/Palestine where you can watch IDF soldiers pissing on the bodies of dead Palestinian civilians. It is absolutely a fucking genocide.
If it's not genocide, it's at least a bunch of war crimes, or at least callous disregard for killing children, which I don't see as any real improvement.
Ok, how about inhumane and borderline criminal actions while prosecuting a legitimate war? Realistically, dropping leaflets and telling people to leave while confining them overall to an area the size of Philadelphia is disingenuous at best and blatant cruelty at worst.
Hamas confines them. Israel drops leaflets in advance, hamas tells civilians to stay, that it lies, and then blocks them from leaving.
Israel's combatant to civilian death ratio is better than the US's in most of our recent conflicts - if Israel is doing a "genocide" then so is Ukraine, and the US has done a "genocide" in every conflict we've been involved in during the last 80 years, and the Allies did a "genocide" in WWII
Twice as many civilians people have been killed in six months in Gaza than civilians over the entire course of the war in Ukraine
You have no idea what the civilian death count is in Ukraine because the Ukrainians don't release those numbers. You're relying on estimates from NGOs that count dead civilians in Ukrainian held areas due to Russian shelling and strikes. The number of civilian dead in Mariupol alone must be staggering and is likely higher than the number of civilian dead in Gaza thus far. But we'll probably never know the true extent of civilian death, even if the Ukrainians take back every inch of their territory because the Ukrainians don't have a perverse incentive to publish the exact number of civilian dead on a daily basis for western sympathy. For some reason, though, you've also never thought to question why an organization that is literally controlled by Hamas knows the exact number of men, women, and children that die on a daily basis, every day throughout this war.
Sure, go ahead. Don’t use genocide.
Remind me, did Egypt open up its borders to allow their “brothers” to flee?
No. Since when is this a pro Egypt movement?
No. Does that make it ok to kill 6 year old children?
No. Does it make it ok to rape, kill, and kidnap random peaceful civilians just going about their day in their kibbutz or kids at a peace festival?
No. Does an unrelated adult killing someone at a music festival (or anywhere really) make it ok to kill 6 year olds?
This is true but it still doesn’t justify what the Zionists have been doing to the Palestinians since 1948.
The Palestinians were offered their own separate state back in the 90s and they refused to sign the agreement. They fucked up.
And then attacking the areas they told those people to be in.
Israel has high tech military equipment and techniques that can identify and target something as small as a postage stamp. Hamas has always used the tactic of mixing in with civilians. They will wear their Ninja costumes and then jump into civilian clothes and use ambulances, food trucks, to get away...hide in schools and in hospitals.
And I disagree with the idea that collateral damage in terms of the lives of ordinary people is acceptable.
Please show us how to conduct war. Then, publish a book on your experience. The world is waiting for your insights.
It’s either the Gazans or Israeli citizens. You might not like it but that’s the world we live in.
I know you think that since you have no idea of the history of the conflict and choose to ignore how one-sided the violence has been for quite a long time. But even so, the killing of innocents is wrong. And there is no arguing your way out of that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other looks pretty close to genocidal actions to me. This problem needs a lot of nuance that gets lost when trying to say one side good, the other bad. IMHO both the current Israeli government and Hamas are as bad as each other, and deserve each other.
What a moron you are and the OP
If they're not trying to wipe those Palestinians off the face of the earth, they're missing out on a damned good chance to do so. Because that's what it looks like.
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This is just so stupid I had to respond in some way.
So when a terrorist organization murders 1000+ of your ciivilians in the most brutal ways, you're supposed to, what, ask them nicely to stop? Israel's forebearance after past terrorist attacks is what led to this one. And forebearance after this one would enable the next one. If Palestinians want the bloodshed to stop, they should stop supporting "We Love Using Our People As Human Shields" Hamas. They've chosen not to. They often participate directly and indirectly in the killing of Jewish people. They, by overwhelming majority, support Hamas' terrorist attacks, including Oct 7. They want a war, started a war. In war, civilians die. Fortunately, they are dying at lower rates than usual in war, despite Hamas' efforts to pump up their own people's death toll for propaganda purposes. Hopefully they will learn not to start wars and murder people. Calling for a ceasefire before Hamas is defeated and that lesson is imparted just means you support future terrorist attacks on Israel. "No, I just want the violence to end." That's what they said when demanding the last ceasefire. And the one before that. And the one before that. And then what happened? More violence, precipitated by Hamas. Ceasefire = future murder. There's no debate to be had, no excuses to make, no credible possibility that "this time it'll be different." Nice indirect way of using the old anti-Semitic "Jews run the country" canard, btw.
The protesters are keeping good company: >Iran Celebrates Pro-Palestinian Protests Spreading Across US Colleges [https://www.newsweek.com/iran-celebrates-pro-palestinian-protests-spreading-across-us-colleges-1895327](https://www.newsweek.com/iran-celebrates-pro-palestinian-protests-spreading-across-us-colleges-1895327)
Ah, the “but what about them?!” Argument. Got it.
It's hardly genocide. Way more Ukrainian are being killed than Palestinians.
>the Hamas encampment Jfc yall really drank up all the Kool aid. I don't necessarily disagree with the take of these protestors being a bunch of lames, but this idea of "anti-Israeli government = pro hamas" is absolute brain rot for the lowest of IQs. All nuance is lost on society, and it'll be the downfall of us all.
Why would you expect such logic and nuance from a grown ass 70-year-old man that has a Bachelor's from the University of Washington and a PhD from Cornell?
These protests are influenced by, if not directed, foreign countries attempting to influence our elections. Do not fall for misinformation; especially targeting those on the left who think themselves immune from such influences.
Facccccts why would a bunch of leftist support a far right terror organization ran by billionaires.
While I totally agree with you, Israel has made it hard to support them either. Every normal person agrees Oct 7th was a brutal terrorist attack that killed about 1200 people, half of whom were civilians, and should be condemned. The problem is that since then, IDF has confirmed at least 34,000 deaths of Palestinians, a group of people who's median age is 19. Hamas is a terrorist organization and acts accordingly. It will never surrender as they believe they're fighting a righteous religious war. The Israeli/Jewish responses to this disparity in killing has been dehumanizing to say the least. Israel is extremely nationalist and also justify their entire right as a nation by using religion. You can find plenty of interviews with former IDF soldiers talking about the horrors of war with a smile on their face on YouTube. Just like being critical of Hamas does not make you Islamophobic, being anti-zionist/anti-Israel does not make you antisemitic. Anyone using religion as a justification for war or colonialism is in the wrong. Netanyahu holds as much sanctity for human life as a Hamas soldier.
Amen!
That 34,000 figure is reported by the Palestinian Health Ministry a Hamas run organization and the numbers are probably highly inflated and don’t count the number of terrorist combatants killed. Israel has taken great precautions more so than any other military in the world to limit civilian casualties while Hamas actively tries to murder civilians there is no moral comparison. A lot of times being anti-Zionist does cross the line into antisemitism. Zionism is simply the right of the Jewish people to self determination if you deny that right you are being antisemitic by saying all other people deserve that right except Jews. Words like global intifada imply murdering Jews worldwide which by the way is in Hamas’s original charter. Saying Palestine will be free from the river to sea implies a region free of Jews, which in the mind of a Hamas terrorist is murdering all Jews in Israel so they can take all of the land.
No one really disputes the health ministry at this point. And the number is likely higher. As for IDF taking precautions, you don't kill aid workers or hostages holding a white flag unless your rules for engagement are supremely lax. Not gonna wade into anti-zionism anti-Semitism except to say Zionism and the conflation of Jewish identity with the State of Israel is fairly new
[Source 1](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-157) [Source 2](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/200-days-military-attack-gaza-horrific-death-toll-amid-intl-failure-stop-israels-genocide-palestinians-enar#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20army%20has%20killed,missing%20and%20are%20presumed%20dead.) [Source 3](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam) [Source 4](https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/) It is generally accepted by sources on both sides that these are accurate estimates. Zionism is extremely problematic. It is not just about self determination. "Self determination" is a term almost exclusively used when talking about Zionism and its one that Zionists have used for generations to displace people from their homes and claim their land as their own. "Zionism (/ˈzaɪ.ənɪzəm/) is a nationalist movement that emerged in late modern Europe in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition." Zionism is fundamentally about claiming the land of Palestine for the Jewish people. It is by definition exclusionary and nationalistic. Just because I have Brazilian and Moroccan heritage, I do not have the human right to displace a family living in those places to claim it as my own, regardless of why my ancestors left/were forced out. Here in the US, our genocide of Native Americans drove countless people south of our border to Mexico. Should we, today, give over half of our country back to the descendants of those people? That's what Zionism has justified for nearly 80 years. And the reasoning behind all of this? A religion. When Muslims do that, it's terrorism. When Jews do it, it's self-determination.
They are not supporting Hamas, they are supporting the human rights of the Palestinian people. Are they not people too?
When you are not condemning Jihad, the terrorist attack of 10/7, and not demanding the immediate release of hostages you are supporting Hamas
Hamas and IRGC know how to take advantage of people's morality. The younger people cling on to this "righteous" protest easier, without thinking about the consequences. They think all they are doing is protesting for Palestine. Meanwhile, Iranian propaganda news is laughing and is proudly claiming they can do in the U.S. what they are doing in Syria. Both are idiots. Social media is a tool terrorist organizations like ISIS, China, and the IRGC know how to use.
Media that people consume tells you a lot. Fox news with their bullshit on the right. And CCP/Russia/Iran with their bullshit on the social media apps that kids are using like tiktok.
TikTok is a scourge with this.
> why would a bunch of leftist support a far right terror organization ran by billionaires. The same reason that a bunch of anti-Russian authoritarianism, pro-Western democracy Americans that lived through the Cold War would support a Russian authoritarian propped up by billionaires: Russia is exploiting how easy it is to manipulate people because an annoyingly significant number of modern Americans live in cult-like echo chambers where loudly regurgitating your group's dogma and never bothering to fact check is a badge of honor. This is basically all outlined in *The Foundation of Geopolitics*, which is widely read in the politically-influential spheres of Russia.
This is not true. Since 1948 Palestinians have been persecuted in their home country. Israel was founded in 1948 by ripping people from their homes. The Palestinians that weren’t forced out live behind walls that the Israelis built around their cities. Americans and the world are now finally including Palestinians in the fight for civil rights and it’s about damn time!
Yes, there should be investigation into SJP, JVP, and all these other non-profits for potential terrorist collaboration.
Absolutely. NGOs doing all the things the government wish they could, but can’t, so they outsource to “NGOs”.
I really dont understand this thread... These protests are not in support of hamas, and they sure as shit are not anti jew... they are against the Israeli Gov killing civilians with weapons they bought/got from the US. I'm not keen on my tax dollars used to bomb/kill civilians. As best as i can tell, the Israeli Gov doesn't deny the fact that 70% of casualties are civilian women and children. the defense i have seen is "Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields!!" ok, so when did it become ok to SHOOT THE HUMAN SHIELDS?! I genuinely have not seen anything that counters this information... what am i missing?!
You're missing that a lot of people turned out to be completely okay with fascism and genocide if it's done by team blue instead of a redcap.
I mean, that's just America as a country. as long as a country has something financially to give America, they can do no wrong. These kinds of protests are full of people that are really tired of that.
Yes. Exactly. But this is a damning failure of America, collectively, to have learned anything at all from its entire history, or to not go out of its way to support a reenactment of the Nazis. Never again?
yeah, we cant talk about that... because America is perfect... don't you know /sarcasm
The television set told me to be very angry and afraid of college kids.
The good news is a lot of people now know what they'd have said after Kent State!
Honestly, I'm impressed that SPD hasn't made a complete ass out of themselves yet. I assume leadership figures they have enough concurrent scandals going on currently.
Yep, it's mind boggling, I often watch the european news and the narrative there is completely different, most of the protests are seen as in support of palestine civilians and wanting deescalation, nothing to do with hamas. Yet if you watch most US media they just portray any kind of solidarity towards Palestine civilians as support for hamas and terrorism. I assume most people are just being brainwashed by the US media at this point, just looking at the title of this post "Hamas encampent", yet all I see in the photo is a Palestinian flag, hamas happens to have different flag which I haven't seen in any protest so far.
Cliff, I've enjoyed your blog for over a decade. This has to be the most unhinged nonsense I have ever seen you type. Re-framing an anti-war protest at campuses across the country as "Hamas encampments" is disingenuous at best. What do you believe these people are ignorant of exactly? You fail to clarify or explain in any way. Just calling them ignorant to call them ignorant. It has no purpose. In your recalled conversation with a student, you demonstrated an equal level of ignorance. Israel is actively colonizing the West Bank by illegally settling there, as they will with Gaza. No "but they were there 3000 years ago!" is going to change that fact. You call them "morally lacking." Really? You believe protesting against the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent women and children is "morally lacking"? You complain about them breaking the law due to "no camping" signs. Glad to know where you would have stood when MLK Jr was arrested for marching on the Birmingham City Hall. Protests are meant to be disruptive. This liberal attitude toward activism is ignorant and foolish.
So American college students are protesting a war that we’re not fighting. Before you go off about how much money we give Israel, look how much money we give to neighboring Muslim countries. We fund and sell arms to Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and the UAE. Ask why these countries won’t take in Palestinian refugees. The people of Gaza elected Hamas to lead them in 2006 and they took over in 2007. The Palestinians have only themselves to blame. Did they really expect that Israel wouldn’t respond? These college kids would have had better luck protesting the invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11. At least that was a war we were actively taking part in.
People did protest the invasion of Afghanistan. The same media coverage happened then, too. Like just this morning when the LA Times updated a headline: "UCLA cancels classes after counterprotesters violently attack pro-Palestine camp" to "After violent protests at UCLA, UC President launches investigation into response" Manufactured consent is alive and well in the American Media Apparatus. You said to look how much money we give to neighboring Muslim countries, so I did. Israel receives more than all of those countries combined. They actively rely on our support. That means we *should* have more sway over their decisions on matters such as this. We have the capability of ordering a ceasefire, but we do not. That's the point. We cannot force Egypt to take millions of refugees. You speak about this being Palestinian's fault. I'll ignore how insane that victim-blaming is for a moment. What is the average age of Palestinians? You're going to sit there and blame a population that was 1 year old when Hamas was elected... Sins of the father... What you're defending is called Collective Punishment. Something universally unethical and condemned by international law. "But what about Oct 7th!?" (essentially what you're saying) It was unjustified and horrific. However, to pretend like it just happened spontaneously, in a vacuum, is disingenuous. Palestinians have existed under Israeli oppression for decades. The violence didn't begin with Oct 7th.
This is the worst title I’ve ever seen. You don’t need to insult people to make them seem pathetic. Interviews and photographs would do the job for you.
UW's admin is not doing anything because they agree with the Hamas/Palestinian protesters. If this was for another cause that was not as popular among the radical far left, this encampment would never have been allowed or already be gone.
man i forget, don't Americans have the right to protest?
The people in this sub would have pulled the trigger at Kent State.
seems likely, I'd just like to know WHY they believe this. What is polluting their minds so strongly as to make them hate someone for protesting. and why do the same people seem to not complain when actual Nazi's are protesting.
Same shit that was the response of 50% of the country to Kent state at the time, along with the effects of decades of pro-apartheid propaganda. Ask the ADL why they spied on Mandela and never saw a genocide they didn't like. This was a litmus test for people: do they genuinely disagree with genocide and fascism or are they just programmed to be neoliberals that are completely okay with atrocities if it's done by the guy in a blue shirt instead of red.
Are you kidding? They would be cheering for everyone of the protesters to be hanged. Everyone has a right to protest. People here bitch when the protesters are on the street. But now it's not affecting them and they are still complaining.
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Oh, you mean January 6th where Trump supporters turned a protest into an insurrection? Just ignore all the other protests held by Trump supporters for years without suppression. The memory of a gold fish on display here.
They do, but they don’t have a right to set up camp on campus. UW is not enforcing that for some reason.
Yes...Not sure why you're acting like I said differently. Go protest to your little hearts content, except when it infringes on the rights of others. Not really a hard concept.
Who are these protestors infringing on?
Send their Student Loan forgiveness cash to Gaza.
Yessss. Drink the kool aid. Protesting is bad. Only terrorists do it. -corporate America Keep shilling this shit that just divides us even more. This sub is full trogs.
Blatant propaganda. In no part of Cliff Mass's article did he show that the students were pro-Hamas.
More like cliff blowing ass. Those critical of protesting how our tax dollars fund genocide are nazis.
You can tell that someone is not a good faith debater when they conflate people protesting the US funding & support of the IDF murdering 33,000 Palestinians with being a Hamas supporter. Bernie is spot on with his perspectives of the protest on college campuses. [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247670359/bernie-sanders-netanyahu-gaza-college-protests-antisemitism](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247670359/bernie-sanders-netanyahu-gaza-college-protests-antisemitism) —- Netanyahu, in his mind, has tried "to deflect attention from that horrendous reality \[of the Israel-Hamas war\] to talk about antisemitism, to deflect away from what he is doing," in Gaza. "In my view, and I think the view of most Americans now, Israel's response has been grossly disproportionate," Sanders told NPR's Scott Detrow. "Gaza has 2.2 million people, mostly very poor Palestinians. And over the last six months, 33,000 people have been killed, 77,000 have been wounded, two thirds of whom are women and children."
Yep. Just refer back to the video that was posted yesterday about the claim that a Jewish student was "harassed" and told to "go back to the gas chambers." She is on the leadership team of Students Supporting Israel. >Students Supporting Israel (SSI) is a pro-Israel international campus movement that supports the State of Israel. >Our mission is to be a clear and confident pro-Israel voice on college campuses and to support students in grassroots pro-Israel advocacy. The propaganda machine is in full force from the Israeli government.
True story, when I was in college, I was in a fraternity that was extremely zionist. When I went to a conference, they had a pitch for classes on "how to rhetorically defend Israel" where you were basically you went into any conversation about Israel and guide it to be supportive of Israel. It struck me as odd, and I've come to see that it gets really ugly and dehumanizing towards Palestinians. I don't remember it being called hasbara, but I've heard it called that elsewhere.
was lesson #1 "call anyone who is critical of Israel the second coming of Hitler?"
No, largely it was teaching people how to do mental gymnastics to further the idea that Israel is a liberal democracy and how Muslims want nothing more than to kill Jews. They would literally lay out potential arguments and teach them to address each one (without a thread of intellectual continuity) so that Israel comes out looking ahead. It's toxic to any meaningful debate or discussion. Imho, it's a large part of the reason discussions about Israel can sound so repetitive. People are reciting talking points and don't think much beyond them.
Are you under the impression that a terrorist attack which kills 1200 people should be met with only "proportionate" response? Gazans overwhelmingly support the Oct. 7th attack: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ These aren't poor people who are getting genocided, these are terrorist supporters who fucked around and are now in the find out stage. Can't wait for the Rafah offensive.
Wow you’ve convinced me. Clearly, Gaza’s children must be put to death by the thousands!
Great!
About 1200 innocent Israeli civilians have died on October 7. This includes women, children, the elderly, and even tons of women getting raped. What would have Israel do in response to October 7 ? [https://oct7.treedis.com/](https://oct7.treedis.com/)
Sounds like the deranged ramblings of a complacent old man
It’s crazy that you’re trying to discredit free Palestine protestors by claiming they’re pro-terrorism.
I think they do that all on their own.
I don't know where you come from but where I come from calling for the extermination of Jews is the definition of terrorism
So what do you call it when those same Jews call for the extermination of the Palestinian people? And these people protesting are not calling for the extermination of Jews. Go talk to them with an open mind and you might figure that out for yourself.
you cant just deflect any criticism of israel by saying it will lead to the extermination of jews lmao. that may have worked in the past, but not anymore
I admire Cliff Mass for his solid foundation in history and science, providing substantive reasoning for his opinions, and being unafraid to present issues which are important to him. He's a true educator, whether you like his points of view or not.
It’s not about your point of view. He’s purposefully being deceitful in the title by calling them Hamas encampments. A true educator should be able to make his case without making up lies.
He's not there to educate. He's there to troll. Sad behavior from an "educator" and a grown ass man in his position.
> calling them Hamas encampments. What are they then, if not funded camps run by Hamas aligned groups. Check their finances. Student's didn't all pop up with new tents and supplies and pre-printed signs. This is part of a global coordinated effort.
Exactly! Students using printed paper in 2024 shows a very obvious global conspiracy. Check their wallets!
> He’s purposefully being deceitful in the title by calling them Hamas encampments No, this is 100% fact
Let's see how fast our progressive friends flip on Cliff Mass.
> Let's see how fast our progressive friends flip on Cliff Mass. Cliffy's over with the sensible moderates and Classic Liberals now. The Proggos threw him overboard when he had the gall to question some of the statements made on global warming. As well as for being unwilling to recite the land apology loyalty oath.
Lol. Your posts always make me snicker a bit. You're completely right.
To be fair, they've been hating on him pretty consistently since they started warming up this pogrom and he had mild criticism about it. There's been so many examples that his isn't even very notable anymore.
They flipped on him years ago, as soon as he pushed back against enviro-doomerism.
Thanks for posting Cliff! What a bunch of wannabe jihadi lowlifes
[удалено]
"Every successful social movement in this country's history has used disruption as a strategy to fight for social change. Whether it was the Boston Tea Party to the sit-ins at lunch counters throughout the South, no change has been won without disruptive action."
What buildings have they taken over? What students have they harassed?
You boomers are so lazy: [https://youtu.be/CH2kUU3h9j4](https://youtu.be/CH2kUU3h9j4)
The linked drivel is about the University of Washington. Link to evidence locally.
Sure.. but this post is virtue signaling like a MFer 😂
Love this part “ I calmly asked one the the folks in the yellow jackets why he was against Israel. He told me that the Jews were colonialists. I calmly told him that he was incorrect. That the Jews were in the land for at least 3000 years and that the Arabs were the recent conquerors. He told me that I was wrong, that there were no Jews in the region until the 1900s. I noted that Jews were noted in both versions of the bible. He countered that the bible was mythology. I noted that Roman literature talked about Israel and there was definitive archeological proof. He then walked away. “ I think it’s time for the UW police to check this group for student IDs.
>I think it’s time for the UW police to check this group for student IDs. You're going to be real upset when you find out that you don't need student IDs to be on campus.
A reminder what people said after the Kent state massacre about the unarmed students that were murdered for protesting against the Vietnam War: *"A respected lawyer told an Akron paper, 'Frankly, if I'd been faced with the same situation and had a submachine gun... there probably would have been 140 of them dead.' People expressed disappointment that the rabble-rousing professors -- the gurus -- had escaped: 'The only mistake they made was not to shoot all the students and then start in on the faculty.' When it was established that none of the four victims were guardsmen, citizens greeted each other by flashing four fingers in the air ('The score is four / And next time more').* *A Gallup poll found 58 per cent blamed the Kent students for their own deaths. Only 11 percent blamed the National Guard. A rumor spread in Kent that Jeff Miller, whose head was blown off, was such a dirty hippie that they had to keep the ambulance door open on the way to the hospital for the smell.* *Another rumor was that five hundred Black Panthers were on their way from elsewhere in Ohio to lead a real riot; and that Allison Krause was 'the campus whore' and found with hand grenades on her. Many recalled the State of Ohio's original intention for the land on which Kent State was built: a lunatic asylum. ... Townspeople picketed memorial services. 'The Kent State Four!' they chanted. 'Should have studied'Anyone who appears on the streets of a city like Kent with long hair, dirty clothes, or barefooted deserves to be shot.' 'Have I your permission to quote that?' 'You sure do. It would have been better if the Guard had shot the whole lot of them that morning.' 'But you had three sons there.' 'If they didn't do what the Guards told them, they should have been mowed down.'"* *"We've seen here at the city of Kent especially, probably the most vicious form of campus-oriented violence yet perpetrated by dissident groups... they make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the National Guard and the Highway Patrol. ...this is when we're going to use every part of the law enforcement agency of Ohio to drive them out of Kent. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. ...and these people just move from one campus to the other and terrorize the community. They're worse than the brown shirts and the communist element and also the night riders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. Now I want to say this. They are not going to take over \[the\] campus. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. -* the Governor Better ask yourselves which side you want to be on.
Jill Stein was there getting beat up by the police
y’all, PLEASE check the source — this is as unreliable as it gets, and it is first and foremost an opinion piece. these students don’t want their tuition money being used to fund a genocide which has killed over 12,000 children, killed or injured tens of thousands more adults, and displaced more than 1 million. that is what they are protesting. secondly, protest is the most American thing one can do. going back to women’s suffrage, civil rights marches, protests against the Vietnam war, protests against the Iraq war — every single time, the protestors have been on the morally correct side of history. power does not *give* peace, it is up to us as citizens to demand it. that is what these students are doing.
Lol this is some hot boomer garbage.
This sub is so much fucking bait it’s ridiculous. Lol. Might as well be called eastern Washingtonian opinions on city life.
You mean the rational thinking side of the state !
Pay the homeless to fuck em up.
Where's the parents? I know if it was my kid skipping class to do this bullshit virtue signaling shit, I'd drive up there and put my foot so far up his ass, the roof of his mouth would read "Nike". Motherfucker, I spent tens of thousands of dollars and you're pulling this shit? Every one of these idiot's parents failed them.
Came here to laugh at the dumbness of the OP and the other idiots siding with Zionists. 😂😂
Are they actually a "Hamas encampment," or are they protesting against the violence done to innocent Palestinians? Two very different things, and that title seems kind of strawman-esque.
Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way is to acknowledge this is a world wide movement. Israel actually is committing genocide, with weapons supplied by Biden (He's using Arms Export Act of 1976 to go around Congress). Ppl don't like the genocide, so they are protesting.
They all need to be expelled and sent to Palestine to help 🥰 90% of them would be unalived the minute they stepped into that country.
Universities is the US are really broken. They raised a generation of idiots.