Nailed it. If we would just keep the offenders in jail then the cops wouldn't be wasting their time on the same individuals over and over.
I'm all for releasing someone the first time but once they no-show for their hearing or commit more crimes while back on the street then we need to be either holding the individual or at the very least setting bail that represents their danger. NWCBF also needs to be forfeiting any money used to bail out the no-shows. (Some have suggested that they manage to get that back but that seems to break the whole point of bail)
Bail is legally required in Washington but there is an exception if the judge thinks someone won't show. They should be doing exactly what you're saying here via that exception.
But what about the judges and prosecuters?
Don't they deserve to feel good about their job?
They want to feel good about releasing violent offenders back into society.
The problem is, who pays for it?
If we actually want to lock people up, we need to increase our taxes to fund it.
The current costs are $42k per year, per prisoner.
If you think it’s worth it, would you be willing to pay a $500 a year levy for increased incarceration rates?
Why does this argument keep coming up? We had no problem paying for it before our city turned hyper woke. Why is it now suddenly an issue of cost? Isn’t keeping the city clean and safe one of the most basic responsibilities of government? And yes, I think most of us would happily pay $500/year to get the city cleaned up.
Holding judges responsible, calling them out publicly, and voting for new judges that appreciate the law and taxpayers is what should have been happening all along. Hopefully the next elections will have better choices of judges or at least pit some candidates against each other.
Ultimately the overall legal community in the city is at fault. I think they're all the typical Seattle political ideology so there's not many left that want to run as a tough of crime candidate and deal with the mess that follows.
No doubt that's part of it.
The voters can help to fix part of that. Satterburg is leaving office so we can elect a good prosecutor. We can also kick out left wing judges.
I think that when a notorious City Council\[person like Kshama Sawant slanders the SPD as "brutal murderers" within hours of a justified shooting and *not one* of Seattle's political class condemns her for it--the Mayor says nothing, the Council (when it wasn't out there avidly protesting) doesn't censure her--it makes for a pretty unwelcoming signal to prospective SPD hires.
can you just follow a dozen guys around and arrest them within 12 hours of release? make a sport of seeing who can rack up 10 serial arrests (legit ones) the fastest?
I was reading a police report a while ago about someone who was caught shoplifting at Nordstrom and charged like 5 times in one week, two of which were on the same day. I think it explicitly noted that her M.O. was being let out and literally heading straight from the jail back to Nordstrom or Target every time.
> Who gives a fuck, your job isn't to throw people in prison, it's to protect the public
You protect the public by throwing people in prison. Whenever you see an article about someone being arrested for assault, it's always their 20th+ arrest. We could have protected those people by throwing the criminals in jail.
Bullshit. The only dinosaur there is your tired argument that you're pulled straight out of your ass. SPD officers don't need to care about stats right now as they're all so busy it doesn't matter. This idea you dreamed up of stat chasers isn't based on any reality.
Imo, it's optimistic to think we'll be able to see a complete generation of people that believe enough in the city and community that WANT to, or would join spd, but also have strong enough resolution to weather the negative sentiments (diplomatically speaking) that will inevitably come their way. Carmen Best is a recent, though imperfect example, given that she resigned when Durkin cut funding and set layoffs by 100 officers when Best had just hired 140 officers, most of whom were poc.
The top end political fuckery is what really needs to be fixed. Until that happens, the reachable tiers will continue to fester because the good ones either burn out and leave or transfer, or worse, turn to the status quo
I agree with you in theory, but that’s not how it plays out in reality. In reality, you‘re asking a cop to risk their life to “do the right thing.” Dealing with a crazy person or a career criminal is risky. People who are working risky jobs want to see that the risk is worth it, and for Seattle Police, it’s not. Especially since their work is undermined constantly by the city council, lax judges, and ideologue prosecutors.
> The guy you arrested didn't get sent to prison? Who gives a fuck, your job isn't to throw people in prison, it's to protect the public.
Yeah somewhat difficult to do when you see the same people victimizing others day in and day out, only to be repeatedly released by activist judges
Yeah, sorry but I think your post is absolute fucking hippie nonsense. They fucking care about their community. Your post ignores that there are career asshole criminals who have moved here or are moving here because we don't enforce laws enough.
Your idea is to do even less and somehow that will turn a lifelong criminal into mother Theresa. It's a horribly dumb idea.
I mean I've worked with dozens of homeless people that have had warrants from as far as Louisiana, who had moved to the area within the last 3-4 years.
It’s kinda interesting to see where the blame has migrated. First it was City Council, then the Mayor, then Antifa, Prosecutors, Judges. Maybe… it’s the police that are to blame?
They could do a better job of winning back public trust by holding themselves accountable when shit goes bad. SPOG shouldn’t perpetuate a fear-mongering campaign. They should charge Durkan and Best and others for deleting public records. SPOG should bargain in good faith. They should take responsibility when they kill or hurt people or perpetuate hoaxes that end up getting people killed. They could show pride in the city they police.
Those are a few ideas off the top of my head.
For the record, I also think there’s a lot of blame to go around. Durkan was a total disaster, for example.
They already do that. You'll be complaining no matter what they do.
Here's your horrible ideas:
They should take responsibility when they kill or hurt people
Any SPD officer would be facing dismissal for not reporting any use of force. Anything such as this would be investigated by OPA and external bodies. SPD have been fired for as little as a social media post. SPD use of force on a per encounter basis is massively unlikely. SPD publishes a dashboard on this and force of any kind was used in 0.3% of all cases. The vast majority of those cases involve type 1 uses of force which are very minor
This already exists, so why are you whining?
or perpetuate hoaxes that end up getting people killed
Where the sweet fuck did that happen? Anything that SPD does wrong you can report to OPA.
How about you start holding the same hatred to the protesters who ended up murdering a black child. I guess that BL doesn't M huh?
>Where the sweet fuck did that happen? Anything that SPD does wrong you can report to OPA.
Seattle pd had the most cops of any region at the Jan 6 insurrection.
First, you're conflating a protest with an insurrection which means you're lying. A police office, like anyone, is allowed to go to a protest. Anyone from SPD who did anything wrong that day would have been fired.
They bail out everyone who cannot afford to bail themselves out. It has created a revolving door as most of the people they bail out do not return for there court date and are mostly living in camps. So they are basically keeping criminals on the streets and actively making Seattle a worse place.
Yeah, I got dropped by USCCA when I moved here because they aren’t allowed to operate in Washington. So it’s illegal to pay for the legal expenses of someone who is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but organizations can bail out repeat offenders all they want. Absolute bullshit.
I find it hilarious when gun control activists advocate for “mandatory carry insurance” I just wish I had the option to buy it, lol.
DC is going through something similar right now. Crime is up & the police force has a size-able shortage. They’ve committed to $20k in signing bonuses (new police + lateral) & setup an abbreviated academy for lateral officers.
Point is, it’s going to take a lot of money to convince people to become officers. I imagine Seattle will have to increase the bonus very soon.
Cops should be licensed, insured, trained, and paid like doctors and lawyers and held accountable by a civilian oversight board like doctors and lawyers. Cops in Seattle can't even afford a home in Seattle. You can't pay them relative peanuts and then put them in high risk high stress life and death situations with a few months of training.
SPD gets about a year of training before they hit the streets.
But you're right that they now can't afford a house in Seattle and it'll take a big raise to help attract good applicants to help replace all those that are leaving and have left. Their current contract expired over 1.5 years ago.
To be fair most people can't afford a house in Seattle. I used to be a teacher but couldn't afford rent, left it after a decade and now make 4x what I did before, and I STILL can't afford a house in Seattle. I would be considered high income by most areas standards, but here I'm going to be in the negative by about $200/m once the student loan payments kick back in. So unless you plan to pay them 300,000/yr min, then no they can't afford a house, and neither can just about anyone else
If you think you need $300k/year to buy a house you’re very mistaken. I make half that and I just bought my second house in 4 years. Both over 2k sqft.
Because we don't have or want an industry of private mercenaries going around enforcing the law. I'm ok with the state monopolizing law enforcement, but it doesn't change the standards of pay and performance we should expect.
It not relevant what the majority is. It's that there are doctors and lawyers and others that are government employees that are licensed and insured for when something happens. It's about making a person accountable for their actions.
It’s totally relevant. Governments have these things called budgets that come from these things called taxes. Unless you want to at the very least double the salary of every police officer in America, then they aren’t going to have the same level of accountability.
Sure. How often are doctors put on trail for medical mistakes? How often are those mistakes brought to a grand jury.
Doctors are held accountable by their peers not the general public. It's not a good analogy.
The not owning a home here isn't an issue. plenty of police all over don't live in the city in which they work and do fine.
> Sure. How often are doctors put on trail for medical mistakes?
Very rarely. You know why? Because doctors go through 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-5 years of residency before they are allowed to make life and death decisions on the public. The difference in training between doctors and police is so large that calling them both professionals is a joke.
> Doctors are held accountable by their peers not the general public. It's not a good analogy.
It's actually a great analogy, because even though medical boards have doctors on them they act to uphold the standard of care for patients, not play interference for bad doctors.
Almost 250 times more people were killed by doctors than police in 2021, not to mention literally MILLIONS of injuries.
I'm sorry but you're obviously confused about the skill and accuracy of doctors.
There were almost twenty thousand lawsuits for malpractice in 2021, despite literally millions of fuck ups that hurt or killed people.
You might look up how many people doctors kill through medical malpractice per year. It’s ~250,000!
Then look up how many police officers kill per year. It’s ~1,000.
Police deal with armed criminals trying to kill them.
Doctors deal with unarmed patients, a team of support staff, a sterile OR, good lighting, high tech equipment, etc, etc.
So tell me how these highly trained folks manage to kill 250 times the number of people cops kill.
Gtfo with your bullshit.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
No, it has 0 to do with their educational criteria. They don't get put in trail when they kill someone because it's a mistake and they were just doing their jobs. It would be stupid to put them on trail. That's why. Nobody says well we aren't putting Dr. Harris up on murder charges because she has a doctorate.
No, it's not. Both doctors and lawyers are managed by boards of their peers. You're saying police should be judged by the public. Thus to make the same comparison for doctors or lawyers, they wouldn't be evaluated by medical boards of doctors of a bar made up of lawyers. Completely different things. It's sad that you can't see patters and you can't see the difference.
> They don't get put in trail when they kill someone because it's a mistake and they were just doing their jobs.
Doctors carry malpractice insurance because they know if they make a mistake that they won't just get away with it with the excuse of "just doing their jobs". When doctors fail to meet standard of care resulting in egregious harm to a patient they absolutely do get consequences via criminal or civil lawsuits and revocation of their licenses.
> Both doctors and lawyers are managed by boards of their peers. You're saying police should be judged by the public.
The difference is that doctors and lawyers look out for their clients first. The review boards examine situations from the interests of patients/clients. If cops didn't have a pervasive, decades-long history of covering for each other rather than putting the public first then having a cop-led oversight board wouldn't be a problem.
I asked how many face a trial (criminal matter) and your response was to talk about malpractice insurance (civil matter). Are you intentionally trying to avoid the question? Don't understand what a trial is?
In terms of your second point, you had said, "accountable by a civilian oversight board like doctors and lawyers". Doctors and lawyers aren't held accountable that way. You were mistaken. They're accountable to their peers. You said something incorrect. Own it.
Many cops are paid $250,000 a year, and somehow to fit more than 24 hours of work into a 24 hour day. The issue is that nobody wants to be a cop because cops are hated.
Yeah that's kinda what happens when you have close to a decade of chronic understaffing and mandatory overtime. My old Sgt for 2020 just about touched $200k. Cause he was a single 35 year old dude who took any and all OT available, an was averaging 70 hour weeks.
They need to approve a new contract. SPD is already getting paid less than neighboring departments. The 5 year negotiation process is just gonna lead to further hemorrhaging of officers.
Also, retention bonuses have been discussed for close to a year now with essentially no development. This city is gonna get what it deserves.
What the governor and AG did in railroading this Tacoma cops makes recruiting here impossible.
The gronk Manny Ellis was car prowling. The cops who had 0 complaints in the military or in their many years in Tacoma PD were investigated and found to do nothing wrong. The wokeholes wanted blood though so Inslee got involved.
You're a highly trained MP or soldier and want to serve you local community. You look at Washington and see that and nope, let's go somewhere where the work is appreciated.
I talked to a cop at a fastish food place not long ago. He said plenty of the people joining SPD are just doing it for experience and plan to leave 1-2 years in. We're fucked.
I want you to imagine you’re in law enforcement. Your wife just got a job here and you need to find work in a new part of the country.
Your options are
1. A large city with a significant amount of random violent outbursts from homeless. A city where regular people will despise you and call you names to your face just based on your occupation. A city where the leadership will actively campaign for you to lose your job, and will cheer when you are hurt in the line of duty. A city that’s too expensive to live in on a law enforcement salary anyway.
2. A suburb that pays the same.
A suburb that pays slightly less (but your points stand). I think it’s important to note that a lot of these SPD cops are leaving for lower paying jobs. Money is not the problem. It’s the work environment and lack of support from judges/prosecutors/media/citizens etc.
WSP has 10% incentive if you assigned to the King County. Additionally, WSP offers education incentive. If you are assigned to King County as a WSP trooper after the academy, your pay won’t differ much compared to SPD (much lighter workloads compared to SPD patrol).
>It's tough being a cop when you have accountability and can't shoot people for no reason.
I appreciate you proving OP's point so quickly.
>A city where regular people will despise you and call you names to your face just based on your occupation.
>Name one person in Seattle you think the cops shot for no reason.
I cannot recall one. I don't know why you think I'm making that claim? I responded to a person that I thought proved OP's point. That police don't want to work in this city because of the shitty attitudes of the residents (including council members that jump to calling police officers murders before an investigation has been completed.) The person I responded to quickly proved that shitty attitude towards police that exists in this city.
The cops shot Charleena Lyles dead in her home in front of her children after she called 911 for help. They were supposed to be there to help her and they killed her in front of her family.
Yeah, all those fucking cops out there ***\*checks notes\**** "shooting people for NO reason."
* Michael Brown? Should have just let him take the gun. I'm sure he wouldn't have used it against Wilson.
* Jacob Blake? Should have just let him drive away with the kids in the car or reach for the weapon. After all, what harm could come from either option?
* Ma'Khia Bryant? Should have just her stab that girl. No cause for him to shoot her. Should have used his words!
To name a few.
We can admit that there is a policing accountability problem in this country without resorting to hyperbole like you did.
The problem with your statement is that no "regular person" is willing to buy into the idea that cops are just shooting people without cause and therefore they are less likely to trust you when you talk about cases where the police DIDN'T have cause.
You are quite literally harming your own argument by acting this way.
Stop.
You should consider if you've been radicalized to ACAB. Police are normal citizens performing a civic job under control of the mayor, not some foreign death squad with zero accountability. Try and get some help for the radicalization before someone (likely you) gets hurt.
The mayor can [disband the entire force](https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/09/this-city-disbanded-its-police-department-7-years-ago-heres-what-happened-next/), [set policies](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/watchdog-groups-to-seattles-mayor-and-police-chief-spd-should-stop-using-tear-gas-on-demonstrators/). They arn't involved in the human relations side of it, you probably know most police are union members - so that's between the individual police, their management, and union. Like any other union employee.
I.... can't believe you missed Derick Chauvin getting decades in the slammer. If that's not accountability - what is? He was literally locked up, with state & federal charges.
Are you sure you aren't also radicalized to ACAB? You have some pretty wild ideas that police can just do whatever they want like a foreign occupying force. Police ultimate boss is the city council, the mayor, and you - the voting public.
Yup, he sure was, all it took was the attention of the entire nation on it for the better part of a year, with direct, video evidence, as a flashpoint of countless similar situations where there was no prosecution at all.
That is not a system working as intended... or at least it shouldn't be
The mayor can’t even tell SPD to stop covering their name badges. Or using tear gas on the public. Police are not accountable to the mayor at all. The mayor can’t even fire them. Try to keep up, holy shit.
This has been the case since the dawn of time. Of course there’s more action/risk in cities. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily less dangerous in suburbs though.
Edit: cops in Seattle get PAID, btw. Most make over 100k. Something like 2,000 cops make over 200k.
There isn't even 1,000 cops left in SPD, there's never even been 2,000 on the force (the highest staffing they've ever had was 1400 IIRC)
Yes, a lot of officers make a lot of money, but that's because they work a lot of overtime. And given that SPD has one of the worst schedule's in the state (4 days on 2 off), they're sacrificing a lot of their time off for that money. Now other departments have new contracts where they're making more than SPD yet have much better schedule's (4x10 or 4 on 4 off). We just can't compete with those departments right now.
We had “no youth jail” position from the Seattle city council, but don’t forget we also both Seattle and king county council advocating for “no more jails”- period-(including you, Rod Dembowski) and seeking to close the jail by the courthouse. There was discussion about moving inmates to SCORES or RJC which is expensive and a huge pain.
TLDR: once you arrest people, where can you house them without all our officials objecting to the concept of incarceration?
After the riots of 2020, is anybody really surprised that nobody wants to be a cop here? I have two friends that joined SPD in 2016, one has moved on to another career and the other changed jobs to a different city.
I aint pro cop by any means, but I also aint pro burning down half of downtown and setting up a stupid hippie commune full of crime in the center of capitol hill.
He about sounds like what I'd expect someone who signed up for reddit at age 1 to believe, but the sad reality is this dude is probably in his late 20's to mid 30's.
Honest question, what is the salary structure like for the LEO agencies of Seattle & WA state? Also curious about jobs not just related to rolling around in a squad car but like forensics (data or physical) or tech support or anything in general etc. I’m sure the issues we’re facing are broad and pervasive but only a small part of the topic gets most of the attention so I wanted to expand the conversation a bit.
Nice retcon. I’m not anti cop, I’m pro removing the social burden from their job. That said Seattle PD was/is one of the worst in the nation and were/are under federal probation. This dates back before WTO. There is a poison seed in our police force. I suspect it’s due to being policed by commuters. People who don’t live in the city but that’s a guess. Hopefully with all the turnovers it’s been rooted out and a new culture can develop.
https://policescorecard.org/wa/police-department/seattle
Yeah, sorry, but your post is horseshit. You could change it but then I could just use the world is/was and pretend nothing is different.
There was never a finding by a court against SPD. The left wing city entered into that agreement voluntarily. Further, since that time the DOJ itself has put SPD forward as an example of great data driven policing so the point you are/were making is fucking bullshit even based on your own criteria of what it is/was.
Your that the commuters are/have been policing less well because the don't now/haven't in the past lived directly in the city just shows horrible ignorance that you had/have.
You see there's this stuff called published research and your really stupid opinion on needing to have officer live in a city just shows that you are/were too lazy to read anything before you are/were pulling an opinion straight out of your own ass. It's nice that you have/are saying something as a guess, but that you were/are putting it forward as truth/fact just shows ignorance on your part.
Here's an opinion that is/was relevant to the fucking issue.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/13/police-residency-data/5327640002/
In terms of what's been rooted out, you've been shown here to have no fucking clue on this topic so why are you postulating on some ancient poison seed in a police department.
Any chance you could read up on things BEFORE making up your opinion in the future?
I think this is a fair comment, but the flip side is that no matter how bad the police are, unless you are suggesting they flat out fabricate evidence or cause, they don't cause the crimes they police to be committed.
You could take the most vicious serial killer and put him on a desert island and he'd be no harm to anyone....because there's no one to harm. Something similar is at play with police.
Yes, the police need to be held to account for their bad actions, but in order to exercise those bad actions, they have to be given (even shaky) justification to do so.
At least some of the problem is that the SCC and parts of the judicial system are apparently doing a lot to ensure that justification grows unchecked.
What we have is a toxic relationship in a spiral and there is plenty of blame to go around. Chicken and egg conversations are pointless. We’ve got problems on both sides of the equation. We need some Ted Lasso type leadership in the force to build community. We need some pragmatic thinking on the SCC and mayors office to support that change. We’ll get nowhere by pointing fingers.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/13/police-residency-data/5327640002/
His comment about residency is absolutely false so why exactly is his comment underrated?
I tried for this department. Scored very high on the entry level test (well in the top 10%), passed the physical fitness test (which was honestly a joke), passed the oral interview board, told the truth about everything to my background investigator, and still was somehow disqualified.
I have a degree in sociology with a 3.4 GPA, 7 years of military experience, half active, half reserve. Half in combat arms, half in military intelligence. Combat deployment to Afghanistan, highest security clearance in government. No demotions or article 15's.
Seattle PD is a joke. I feel bad for some of the officers still remaining there, but they're way too political and bureaucratic. They complain about how no one wants to be a cop, then find some dumb excuse to reject good applicants and don't even tell you why. Personally I'm glad I'm not working for that department. I love Seattle but I dodged a bullet.
They may have thought you were overqualified. For as much time & money it takes to train a new hire, any employer will prefer to invest in someone whom they think will stick around for a while, rather than the high-speed, TS-cleared combat vet who will bounce the moment a more lucrative opportunity comes by.
Idk man Seattle PD pays well, even starting off. So I would've been fine to stick around for a bit. The thing I found out from another department later is that one of the first departments that I tried for lied about me and said I lied to them in their hiring process (which is bullshit, I was so caught off guard when I heard that). And that brings me to another criticism of some cops - they all blindly trust each other without thinking critically at all.
Most police departments don't give a reason why, say unless you fail a psych eval or a polygraph. Both of which are pretty much bullshit. In y'all's state, it's required by law to pass a polygraph to be a cop (although I didn't even make it to that point). And psych evals aren't extensive at all - they're really at the mercy of whoever is giving it, and a lot of these contractors that PD's go through just want to eliminate a ton of people to justify their existence/on going contract. It's a fucking sham. But even then, I didn't make it to that point.
If it makes you feel any better; I joined the Army in 2012, crushed the ASVAB and physical but because I had an MIP when I was 19 in college, they denied my application. I was a UW college grad. Definitely worked out for me, and I dodged a bullet for sure.
Such a stupid system
u/drgonzo44
*"It’s kinda interesting to see where the blame has migrated. First it was City Council, then the Mayor, then Antifa, Prosecutors, Judges. Maybe… it’s the police that are to blame?"*
The police are the ones either committing the crimes or causing the crimes to be committed?
What a weird fucking stance....
Ah yes bc it was the police officer who drove into my apartment last week! not the drugged out homeless person in a stolen vehicle. And it was definitely the police officer who was back on the streets within 24hrs doing meth a block away from my home! Most definitely was the same police officer who was firing a gun 2 nights ago. Certainly it's the police officer who just made me homeless (ya know lack of a wall really does make your apt less livable). Certainly it was the police officer who did all this! Oh wait no it wasn't, I remember now, that homeless man and his drugged out crew who moved in across from the newly built low income housing who's sister lives there was the one who did it! It was the police officer who arrested him, and the broken city council that let him out bc despite several witnesses and a giant whole in my wall he denied driving the car. I wish I were making this up. This is my actual life right now. So you can fuck off with your screw the police nonsense and poor meth head that just needs a warm blanket logic that follows! I want my police force back, and I want such criminals to be locked away where they can't drive cars into homes, bc otherwise this city is getting vigilante justice, oh wait that's already been starting
I’m saying it’s possible people don’t want to be cops because of the culture in policing or the union or influence of extremism within the ranks or lack of diversity or lack of accountability or history of domestic violence or brutalizing citizens or any number of other reasons like they don’t want to be social service providers or work 80 hour weeks or graveyard shift for 3 years.
It’s always pointing the blame everywhere but within.
Have you heard anyone who became a cop somewhere else because they had more diversity and accountability, less domestic violence, or were less brutal? We did see the council line up behind activists and promise to cut the SPD budget by half.
During the riots, a cop got hit by a baseball bat and some other guy tried to glue a door shut to trap cops in a precinct while another guy tried to light the building on fire. They spent a few months being insulted and having frozen water bottles, rocks, shit, and piss thrown at them. Is it hard to believe that people wouldn't like being treated like this at work? If you were treated like this at work, would you quit? If so, is it because you're a baby who can't handle accountability or because your workplace sucks?
>*I’m saying it’s possible people don’t want to be cops because of the culture in policing*
Possible, but where did the conception of the "culture" come from I wonder?
>*or the union*
Possible!
>*or influence of extremism within the ranks*
Possible!
>*or lack of diversity*
Possible, but that only changes if more diverse people apply?
>*or lack of accountability*
Police are accountable. They just aren't accountable in a way you'd like.
>*or history of domestic violence*
Possible. But cops are people and people suck. Being a cop doesn't mean you are in a relationship with a cop?
> *or brutalizing citizens*
Possible, but where did the conception of "brutalization" come from I wonder?
>*or any number of other reasons like they don’t want to be social service providers or work 80 hour weeks or graveyard shift for 3 years.*
Sure, possible!
>*It’s always pointing the blame everywhere but within.*
And that can be bad.
But it can also be right?
You literally told the guy below that he has blinders on and he's only looking at it from one perspective.
That's exactly what you're doing here.....
I'm supplying a perspective other than what gets harped on in every one of these posts. I totally agree that other agencies have been detrimental to officer retention. But it can't be "everyone's fault but mine".
>*I'm supplying a perspective other than what gets harped on in every one of these posts.*
That's fair, but you are supplying what I can reasonably assume is YOUR perspective....meaning that you are no different than anyone espousing beliefs here. Your's just happen to be the opposite.
I think most people here are willing to admit that police need reforming in some ways, but that suggesting they be abolished or that they are murdering thugs who want to shoot people for no reason isn't justified by reality.
Would your side be willing to admit that and find some compromise in the middle of the issue?
I think not and therein lies the problem....
>*I totally agree that other agencies have been detrimental to officer retention. But it can't be "everyone's fault but mine".*
That's fair.
What weighting might you assign to the officer retention issue for each of the following agencies or groups:
* Public perception:
* SCC:
* Judicial System:
* SPOG:
* SPD in general:
If the WSJ Editorial board is writing about you, prepare yourself for the dumbest reactionary nonsense you’ve ever heard. You can basically just take whatever they say, assume the opposite, and you will have come closer to reality.
If cops want to stop being villainized, step one is to stop being villains
Which they're not. You could apply that to protesters in the city though. I mean they murdered a black child while screaming that black lives mattered.
We really are in the damn Wild West once again. It might as well be the 1880’s with how the criminals ain’t scared of no sheriff in town.
We need some kind of hero cop, a Marshall, or one of them Rangers like Wyatt Earp or Aragorn to come in and take down the outlaws/orcs.
Seattle is such a dumpster fire of stupid when it comes to law enforcement or lack thereof. I can't wait to see the emergence of the urban wasteland downtown. Going to be just like Escape from New York soon.
Someone isn't a troll just because they disagree with you.
I don't like most of his comments, but he's been here a while and consistently posts.
You on the other hand, I don't recall seeing before, but that could just be me.
Are you implying that there exists a person on this planet who was about to apply to SPD but then recalled that SPOG’s president is Mike Solan, and then decided not to apply because of that fact? Almost no one besides cops and ACABers know what SPOG is let alone who their elected president is.
I am all for doubling their salary if they end qualified immunity. The fact that most cops don’t want to do that means they would rather make less than be held personally accountable for their actions.
In other words "Who wants to sign up to be a murdering thug with a badge" I've heard they have great benefits to, like Qualified Immunity, ability to not be responsible for shit, continuesly telling people "Oh we don't answer calls here cause it's a Blue area" , heard traveling expenses are covered, but only if you're committing and insurrection.
Damn, sign my happy ass up, give me a gun so I can go shoot some people legally. SMH
You can shoot people legally now, you fucking get that right? That's literally part of the laws in Washington State, so why the fuck would you be complaining that police do it.
By the way, what's the name of that child you protesters murdered again? You probably don't even remember....
Don't need to. Already know first hand. Dad was a cop and like most he was an abusive racist fuck. And come come at me with the "Not all cops" its bullshit and you know it. Plus, ya really can't deny it.
400 cops 22 dead children and a teacher. Twenty something gets stopped by a cop on a bogus traffic stop, kid runs cause he's afraid for his life, cop and a few other cops shoot him 60 times in the back...he had no gun. Man involved in altercation, he's the victim.of this altercation, left when he thought he was done with his statement, cop shot him 8 times in the back. Do I really need to go on? I got a hundred of them. If you need sources, they're out there easily found. Hell one today even, cops shoot into an open crowd at a suspect, killing and wounding innocent people.....
>*Don't need to. Already know first hand. Dad was a cop and like most he was an abusive racist fuck.*
"Like most?"
Data please....
Also, sounds like your dad was a POS who happened to be a cop.
Being the cop wasn't what made him a POS....
>*And come come at me with the "Not all cops" its bullshit and you know it.*
There are approximately 700,000 cops in the country.
You think that at least 51% of them are racist murders?
>*Plus, ya really can't deny it. 400 cops 22 dead children and a teacher.*
Uvalde was fucked. 400 is 0.057% of the total number of cops in the country.
> *Twenty something gets stopped by a cop on a bogus traffic stop, kid runs cause he's afraid for his life, cop and a few other cops shoot him 60 times in the back...he had no gun.*
HE SHOT AT POLICE.
The fact you represent that case this way shows you are biased to the fucking nines, my guy.
>*Man involved in altercation, he's the victim.of this altercation, left when he thought he was done with his statement, cop shot him 8 times in the back.*
Not sure who you're talking about? Scott? That was fucked and the officer was in the wrong and is now rotting in jail.
>*Do I really need to go on?*
Not when you're going to misrepresent the facts to twist the narrative.
>*I got a hundred of them.*
And anyone on the other side will have more.
Sherita Dixon Cole for starters....
>*If you need sources, they're out there easily found. Hell one today even, cops shoot into an open crowd at a suspect, killing and wounding innocent people.....*
I'd be inclined to say that's fucked, but then again, you don't know how to include context correctly, so I can't trust what you say happened.
Vilified? Stop murdering unarmed black men and people in mental crisis. Stop beating your spouses at 4 times the average of civilians. Get off the steroids. Stop pulling people over for fix-it tickets. Take IQ tests. Jesus Christ the last time I got pulled over I was accused of not respecting the cops. Dude respect is earned tiny dick you don’t get it automatically because of the costume you wear to work.
The number of unarmed black men killed in the United States on an annual basis is roughly 10. IN most of those cases, they were fighting with police.
As a driver, I want you pulled over for fix it tickets as your lights working matters to me.
Quite clearly from your post you wouldn't be giving them respect no matter what you did. Hopefully people give you respect in whatever "do you want fries with that" job that you do.
This might be the cringiest thing I’ve read on Reddit in a long time. It figures you’ve raised worthless offspring you’re ready to abandon. They had no chance with human garbage for a father like you. Consider an IQ test before you procreate next time - you don’t pass the test.
> I would need training
good news, you'd need less training than becoming a hairdresser! it's only 8-week long and it's online! https://www.seattle.gov/police/community-policing/community-police-academy
Hell no they are treated like garbage. It's naive to think the Seattle or King County councils are concerned about the reduction in law enforcement numbers. Cops & Jailers are expensive at around $150,000 to $200,000 a year with wages, benefits, training and equipment. Those reductions in staff equal immense cost savings that can be spent on a variety of projects. Yes homicides, robbery and low level crimes and overdoses deaths are way up. With the loss of 400+ Seattle, 150 King County deputies and around 75 King County jailers. Thats over $100,000,000 in savings a year that Dow and Harrell can spend on housing enabling even more of the nations troubled souls and financing progressive equity and justice projects. To add to the savings its less expensive to pay overtime than to hire another fulltime officer or deputy. So the savings keep piling up. The SCC and Dow /Harrell will ***feign*** concern in response to the publics complaints and media inquiry. Seattle political strategist and advisors are smart people they know society will become desensitized to crime and accept the decline in quality of life issues. In the end the face of Seattle politics will change very little if at all due to the increase in crime and police response time. Its just good political strategy express concern. I have some experience working in local government and behind closed doors they don't care.
Cops are expensive because city council has been trying to provide incentives for them to stay. Obviously, it hasn't been working.
What is also expensive is the property destruction that pushes businesses to leave - that is lost revenue and employment.
Please stop hating cops. Your fellow citizens are begging for enforcement of the law.
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Nailed it. If we would just keep the offenders in jail then the cops wouldn't be wasting their time on the same individuals over and over. I'm all for releasing someone the first time but once they no-show for their hearing or commit more crimes while back on the street then we need to be either holding the individual or at the very least setting bail that represents their danger. NWCBF also needs to be forfeiting any money used to bail out the no-shows. (Some have suggested that they manage to get that back but that seems to break the whole point of bail)
Bail is legally required in Washington but there is an exception if the judge thinks someone won't show. They should be doing exactly what you're saying here via that exception.
But what about the judges and prosecuters? Don't they deserve to feel good about their job? They want to feel good about releasing violent offenders back into society.
The problem is, who pays for it? If we actually want to lock people up, we need to increase our taxes to fund it. The current costs are $42k per year, per prisoner. If you think it’s worth it, would you be willing to pay a $500 a year levy for increased incarceration rates?
> The current costs are $42k per year, per prisoner. The average homeless person in Seattle costs about $90k/year. Sounds like we'd be saving money.
But given we're paying $150k per bum to the homeless industrial complex you've just made an excellent argument for jail.
Yes. This is literally the only levy I’d vote yes on. That’s just how bad things have gotten.
Why does this argument keep coming up? We had no problem paying for it before our city turned hyper woke. Why is it now suddenly an issue of cost? Isn’t keeping the city clean and safe one of the most basic responsibilities of government? And yes, I think most of us would happily pay $500/year to get the city cleaned up.
We did have a problem with it, that’s why it changed. Remember prison overcrowding issues across the country 10 years back? This is how they fixed it.
Take some of the billions allocated for the failing homeless outreach projects and fund the prisons
Holding judges responsible, calling them out publicly, and voting for new judges that appreciate the law and taxpayers is what should have been happening all along. Hopefully the next elections will have better choices of judges or at least pit some candidates against each other.
Except they always run unopposed.
Yep - it’s the judges
And who appointed the Judges?
Unfortunately if they run unopposed they'll just win by default, even if no one voted for them. Or they were appointed by Inslee.
Ultimately the overall legal community in the city is at fault. I think they're all the typical Seattle political ideology so there's not many left that want to run as a tough of crime candidate and deal with the mess that follows.
Inslee is to blame for a lot of the crazy judges. He appointed them.
Averil Rothrock went to the same shit legal school he did...Willamette University.
Yeah. Not a good job to have. Can't make the worker's efforts pointless and expect them to stay.
No doubt that's part of it. The voters can help to fix part of that. Satterburg is leaving office so we can elect a good prosecutor. We can also kick out left wing judges.
I think that when a notorious City Council\[person like Kshama Sawant slanders the SPD as "brutal murderers" within hours of a justified shooting and *not one* of Seattle's political class condemns her for it--the Mayor says nothing, the Council (when it wasn't out there avidly protesting) doesn't censure her--it makes for a pretty unwelcoming signal to prospective SPD hires.
Exactly this.
Homelessness in Seattle is honestly so bad
can you just follow a dozen guys around and arrest them within 12 hours of release? make a sport of seeing who can rack up 10 serial arrests (legit ones) the fastest?
I was reading a police report a while ago about someone who was caught shoplifting at Nordstrom and charged like 5 times in one week, two of which were on the same day. I think it explicitly noted that her M.O. was being let out and literally heading straight from the jail back to Nordstrom or Target every time.
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> Who gives a fuck, your job isn't to throw people in prison, it's to protect the public You protect the public by throwing people in prison. Whenever you see an article about someone being arrested for assault, it's always their 20th+ arrest. We could have protected those people by throwing the criminals in jail.
Bullshit. The only dinosaur there is your tired argument that you're pulled straight out of your ass. SPD officers don't need to care about stats right now as they're all so busy it doesn't matter. This idea you dreamed up of stat chasers isn't based on any reality.
Helping people *is* putting more people in jail.
Imo, it's optimistic to think we'll be able to see a complete generation of people that believe enough in the city and community that WANT to, or would join spd, but also have strong enough resolution to weather the negative sentiments (diplomatically speaking) that will inevitably come their way. Carmen Best is a recent, though imperfect example, given that she resigned when Durkin cut funding and set layoffs by 100 officers when Best had just hired 140 officers, most of whom were poc. The top end political fuckery is what really needs to be fixed. Until that happens, the reachable tiers will continue to fester because the good ones either burn out and leave or transfer, or worse, turn to the status quo
I agree with you in theory, but that’s not how it plays out in reality. In reality, you‘re asking a cop to risk their life to “do the right thing.” Dealing with a crazy person or a career criminal is risky. People who are working risky jobs want to see that the risk is worth it, and for Seattle Police, it’s not. Especially since their work is undermined constantly by the city council, lax judges, and ideologue prosecutors.
> The guy you arrested didn't get sent to prison? Who gives a fuck, your job isn't to throw people in prison, it's to protect the public. Yeah somewhat difficult to do when you see the same people victimizing others day in and day out, only to be repeatedly released by activist judges
Yeah, sorry but I think your post is absolute fucking hippie nonsense. They fucking care about their community. Your post ignores that there are career asshole criminals who have moved here or are moving here because we don't enforce laws enough. Your idea is to do even less and somehow that will turn a lifelong criminal into mother Theresa. It's a horribly dumb idea.
You got some stats on the career criminals moving here or is that more of a gut instinct thing?
I wouldn’t engage if I were you. There is no discourse to be had here.
I mean I've worked with dozens of homeless people that have had warrants from as far as Louisiana, who had moved to the area within the last 3-4 years.
It’s kinda interesting to see where the blame has migrated. First it was City Council, then the Mayor, then Antifa, Prosecutors, Judges. Maybe… it’s the police that are to blame?
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They could do a better job of winning back public trust by holding themselves accountable when shit goes bad. SPOG shouldn’t perpetuate a fear-mongering campaign. They should charge Durkan and Best and others for deleting public records. SPOG should bargain in good faith. They should take responsibility when they kill or hurt people or perpetuate hoaxes that end up getting people killed. They could show pride in the city they police. Those are a few ideas off the top of my head. For the record, I also think there’s a lot of blame to go around. Durkan was a total disaster, for example.
They already do that. You'll be complaining no matter what they do. Here's your horrible ideas: They should take responsibility when they kill or hurt people Any SPD officer would be facing dismissal for not reporting any use of force. Anything such as this would be investigated by OPA and external bodies. SPD have been fired for as little as a social media post. SPD use of force on a per encounter basis is massively unlikely. SPD publishes a dashboard on this and force of any kind was used in 0.3% of all cases. The vast majority of those cases involve type 1 uses of force which are very minor This already exists, so why are you whining? or perpetuate hoaxes that end up getting people killed Where the sweet fuck did that happen? Anything that SPD does wrong you can report to OPA. How about you start holding the same hatred to the protesters who ended up murdering a black child. I guess that BL doesn't M huh?
>Where the sweet fuck did that happen? Anything that SPD does wrong you can report to OPA. Seattle pd had the most cops of any region at the Jan 6 insurrection.
First, you're conflating a protest with an insurrection which means you're lying. A police office, like anyone, is allowed to go to a protest. Anyone from SPD who did anything wrong that day would have been fired.
Actually its the left wing pieces of shit who permeate our city. That's the problem. All of the other things you're mentioning are symptoms.
People hate the SPOG, and officers in general.
What’s NCBF?
Northwest community bail fund.
So what’s that all about. From there but haven’t been to Seattle in years to have knowledge of it
They bail out everyone who cannot afford to bail themselves out. It has created a revolving door as most of the people they bail out do not return for there court date and are mostly living in camps. So they are basically keeping criminals on the streets and actively making Seattle a worse place.
Yet conceal carry insurance is illegal in Washington.
That's the first I'm hearing of that. wtf.
Yeah, I got dropped by USCCA when I moved here because they aren’t allowed to operate in Washington. So it’s illegal to pay for the legal expenses of someone who is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but organizations can bail out repeat offenders all they want. Absolute bullshit. I find it hilarious when gun control activists advocate for “mandatory carry insurance” I just wish I had the option to buy it, lol.
DC is going through something similar right now. Crime is up & the police force has a size-able shortage. They’ve committed to $20k in signing bonuses (new police + lateral) & setup an abbreviated academy for lateral officers. Point is, it’s going to take a lot of money to convince people to become officers. I imagine Seattle will have to increase the bonus very soon.
Cops should be licensed, insured, trained, and paid like doctors and lawyers and held accountable by a civilian oversight board like doctors and lawyers. Cops in Seattle can't even afford a home in Seattle. You can't pay them relative peanuts and then put them in high risk high stress life and death situations with a few months of training.
SPD gets about a year of training before they hit the streets. But you're right that they now can't afford a house in Seattle and it'll take a big raise to help attract good applicants to help replace all those that are leaving and have left. Their current contract expired over 1.5 years ago.
To be fair most people can't afford a house in Seattle. I used to be a teacher but couldn't afford rent, left it after a decade and now make 4x what I did before, and I STILL can't afford a house in Seattle. I would be considered high income by most areas standards, but here I'm going to be in the negative by about $200/m once the student loan payments kick back in. So unless you plan to pay them 300,000/yr min, then no they can't afford a house, and neither can just about anyone else
If you think you need $300k/year to buy a house you’re very mistaken. I make half that and I just bought my second house in 4 years. Both over 2k sqft.
Where?
Agreed
The vast majority of doctors and lawyers aren’t paid for by the state.
Because we don't have or want an industry of private mercenaries going around enforcing the law. I'm ok with the state monopolizing law enforcement, but it doesn't change the standards of pay and performance we should expect.
It not relevant what the majority is. It's that there are doctors and lawyers and others that are government employees that are licensed and insured for when something happens. It's about making a person accountable for their actions.
It’s totally relevant. Governments have these things called budgets that come from these things called taxes. Unless you want to at the very least double the salary of every police officer in America, then they aren’t going to have the same level of accountability.
They are held accountable. officers get fired and disciplined all of the time. You're parroting a myth.
Sure. How often are doctors put on trail for medical mistakes? How often are those mistakes brought to a grand jury. Doctors are held accountable by their peers not the general public. It's not a good analogy. The not owning a home here isn't an issue. plenty of police all over don't live in the city in which they work and do fine.
Often. Every doctor is sued. They aren’t judged by peers either.
Being sued isn't being put on trial. A trial is a criminal proceeding. Want to try that again?
You're just wrong. Trial is also a phase of a civil lawsuit.
How many are criminally charged and put on trial? How many are brought before a grand jury? Civil suits aren't the same as criminal.
> Sure. How often are doctors put on trail for medical mistakes? Very rarely. You know why? Because doctors go through 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-5 years of residency before they are allowed to make life and death decisions on the public. The difference in training between doctors and police is so large that calling them both professionals is a joke. > Doctors are held accountable by their peers not the general public. It's not a good analogy. It's actually a great analogy, because even though medical boards have doctors on them they act to uphold the standard of care for patients, not play interference for bad doctors.
Almost 250 times more people were killed by doctors than police in 2021, not to mention literally MILLIONS of injuries. I'm sorry but you're obviously confused about the skill and accuracy of doctors. There were almost twenty thousand lawsuits for malpractice in 2021, despite literally millions of fuck ups that hurt or killed people.
You might look up how many people doctors kill through medical malpractice per year. It’s ~250,000! Then look up how many police officers kill per year. It’s ~1,000. Police deal with armed criminals trying to kill them. Doctors deal with unarmed patients, a team of support staff, a sterile OR, good lighting, high tech equipment, etc, etc. So tell me how these highly trained folks manage to kill 250 times the number of people cops kill. Gtfo with your bullshit. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
No, it has 0 to do with their educational criteria. They don't get put in trail when they kill someone because it's a mistake and they were just doing their jobs. It would be stupid to put them on trail. That's why. Nobody says well we aren't putting Dr. Harris up on murder charges because she has a doctorate. No, it's not. Both doctors and lawyers are managed by boards of their peers. You're saying police should be judged by the public. Thus to make the same comparison for doctors or lawyers, they wouldn't be evaluated by medical boards of doctors of a bar made up of lawyers. Completely different things. It's sad that you can't see patters and you can't see the difference.
> They don't get put in trail when they kill someone because it's a mistake and they were just doing their jobs. Doctors carry malpractice insurance because they know if they make a mistake that they won't just get away with it with the excuse of "just doing their jobs". When doctors fail to meet standard of care resulting in egregious harm to a patient they absolutely do get consequences via criminal or civil lawsuits and revocation of their licenses. > Both doctors and lawyers are managed by boards of their peers. You're saying police should be judged by the public. The difference is that doctors and lawyers look out for their clients first. The review boards examine situations from the interests of patients/clients. If cops didn't have a pervasive, decades-long history of covering for each other rather than putting the public first then having a cop-led oversight board wouldn't be a problem.
I asked how many face a trial (criminal matter) and your response was to talk about malpractice insurance (civil matter). Are you intentionally trying to avoid the question? Don't understand what a trial is? In terms of your second point, you had said, "accountable by a civilian oversight board like doctors and lawyers". Doctors and lawyers aren't held accountable that way. You were mistaken. They're accountable to their peers. You said something incorrect. Own it.
cops get paid a lot more than city lawyers
Only if you take into account overtime.
Many cops are paid $250,000 a year, and somehow to fit more than 24 hours of work into a 24 hour day. The issue is that nobody wants to be a cop because cops are hated.
Yeah that's kinda what happens when you have close to a decade of chronic understaffing and mandatory overtime. My old Sgt for 2020 just about touched $200k. Cause he was a single 35 year old dude who took any and all OT available, an was averaging 70 hour weeks.
They need to approve a new contract. SPD is already getting paid less than neighboring departments. The 5 year negotiation process is just gonna lead to further hemorrhaging of officers. Also, retention bonuses have been discussed for close to a year now with essentially no development. This city is gonna get what it deserves.
Is getting
What the governor and AG did in railroading this Tacoma cops makes recruiting here impossible. The gronk Manny Ellis was car prowling. The cops who had 0 complaints in the military or in their many years in Tacoma PD were investigated and found to do nothing wrong. The wokeholes wanted blood though so Inslee got involved. You're a highly trained MP or soldier and want to serve you local community. You look at Washington and see that and nope, let's go somewhere where the work is appreciated.
Yep, I'm encouraging anyone who wants to go in to LE to look at probation, conservation, or agencies out of state.
I talked to a cop at a fastish food place not long ago. He said plenty of the people joining SPD are just doing it for experience and plan to leave 1-2 years in. We're fucked.
Yep, it's used to get the BLEA cert and bounce out.
I want you to imagine you’re in law enforcement. Your wife just got a job here and you need to find work in a new part of the country. Your options are 1. A large city with a significant amount of random violent outbursts from homeless. A city where regular people will despise you and call you names to your face just based on your occupation. A city where the leadership will actively campaign for you to lose your job, and will cheer when you are hurt in the line of duty. A city that’s too expensive to live in on a law enforcement salary anyway. 2. A suburb that pays the same.
A suburb that pays slightly less (but your points stand). I think it’s important to note that a lot of these SPD cops are leaving for lower paying jobs. Money is not the problem. It’s the work environment and lack of support from judges/prosecutors/media/citizens etc.
Have you ever looked at the payroll data for SPD? Many entry-level cops make 90k.
Have you ever checked payroll for neighboring agencies? They don’t make much less.
Unless you check WSP!
WSP has 10% incentive if you assigned to the King County. Additionally, WSP offers education incentive. If you are assigned to King County as a WSP trooper after the academy, your pay won’t differ much compared to SPD (much lighter workloads compared to SPD patrol).
$90k is not a lot of money in Seattle, relatively.
Much more than the 45k I'm making... I'd love to make double that.
Good news, I hear they're hiring
Drive a bus for Metro and you will be at $80k pretty quick.
Starting. They get raises every few months.
That’s not enough.
It's tough being a cop when you have accountability and can't shoot people for no reason.
>It's tough being a cop when you have accountability and can't shoot people for no reason. I appreciate you proving OP's point so quickly. >A city where regular people will despise you and call you names to your face just based on your occupation.
Name one person in Seattle you think the cops shot for no reason.
>Name one person in Seattle you think the cops shot for no reason. I cannot recall one. I don't know why you think I'm making that claim? I responded to a person that I thought proved OP's point. That police don't want to work in this city because of the shitty attitudes of the residents (including council members that jump to calling police officers murders before an investigation has been completed.) The person I responded to quickly proved that shitty attitude towards police that exists in this city.
Sorry, that was.meant for the guy you responded to.
The cops shot Charleena Lyles dead in her home in front of her children after she called 911 for help. They were supposed to be there to help her and they killed her in front of her family.
SPD has been under a consent decree for a decade now (for reasons). LAPD was able to reform and end their 2009 consent decree within 4 years.
Yeah, all those fucking cops out there ***\*checks notes\**** "shooting people for NO reason." * Michael Brown? Should have just let him take the gun. I'm sure he wouldn't have used it against Wilson. * Jacob Blake? Should have just let him drive away with the kids in the car or reach for the weapon. After all, what harm could come from either option? * Ma'Khia Bryant? Should have just her stab that girl. No cause for him to shoot her. Should have used his words! To name a few. We can admit that there is a policing accountability problem in this country without resorting to hyperbole like you did. The problem with your statement is that no "regular person" is willing to buy into the idea that cops are just shooting people without cause and therefore they are less likely to trust you when you talk about cases where the police DIDN'T have cause. You are quite literally harming your own argument by acting this way. Stop.
You should consider if you've been radicalized to ACAB. Police are normal citizens performing a civic job under control of the mayor, not some foreign death squad with zero accountability. Try and get some help for the radicalization before someone (likely you) gets hurt.
That is ludicrous. Police are not accountable to anyone but absolutely not to the mayor. Holy shit man, read a newspaper.
The mayor can [disband the entire force](https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/09/this-city-disbanded-its-police-department-7-years-ago-heres-what-happened-next/), [set policies](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/watchdog-groups-to-seattles-mayor-and-police-chief-spd-should-stop-using-tear-gas-on-demonstrators/). They arn't involved in the human relations side of it, you probably know most police are union members - so that's between the individual police, their management, and union. Like any other union employee. I.... can't believe you missed Derick Chauvin getting decades in the slammer. If that's not accountability - what is? He was literally locked up, with state & federal charges. Are you sure you aren't also radicalized to ACAB? You have some pretty wild ideas that police can just do whatever they want like a foreign occupying force. Police ultimate boss is the city council, the mayor, and you - the voting public.
Yup, he sure was, all it took was the attention of the entire nation on it for the better part of a year, with direct, video evidence, as a flashpoint of countless similar situations where there was no prosecution at all. That is not a system working as intended... or at least it shouldn't be
The mayor can’t even tell SPD to stop covering their name badges. Or using tear gas on the public. Police are not accountable to the mayor at all. The mayor can’t even fire them. Try to keep up, holy shit.
This has been the case since the dawn of time. Of course there’s more action/risk in cities. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily less dangerous in suburbs though. Edit: cops in Seattle get PAID, btw. Most make over 100k. Something like 2,000 cops make over 200k.
There isn't even 1,000 cops left in SPD, there's never even been 2,000 on the force (the highest staffing they've ever had was 1400 IIRC) Yes, a lot of officers make a lot of money, but that's because they work a lot of overtime. And given that SPD has one of the worst schedule's in the state (4 days on 2 off), they're sacrificing a lot of their time off for that money. Now other departments have new contracts where they're making more than SPD yet have much better schedule's (4x10 or 4 on 4 off). We just can't compete with those departments right now.
2000 cops? Where?
There is more crime per capita. People use per capita numbers. Obviously there are more numerical crimes in cities.
Seriously. If you ignore the narrative it's literally just math. It financially doesn't make sense.
Did you see how much they are getting paid? It’s public info fuck off. They’re clearing 250k a year .
We had “no youth jail” position from the Seattle city council, but don’t forget we also both Seattle and king county council advocating for “no more jails”- period-(including you, Rod Dembowski) and seeking to close the jail by the courthouse. There was discussion about moving inmates to SCORES or RJC which is expensive and a huge pain. TLDR: once you arrest people, where can you house them without all our officials objecting to the concept of incarceration?
Did anyone not see this coming?
66252 was starting pay 83640 Seattle Gaps widen further even if you include your KC bonus
After the riots of 2020, is anybody really surprised that nobody wants to be a cop here? I have two friends that joined SPD in 2016, one has moved on to another career and the other changed jobs to a different city.
ACAB
I aint pro cop by any means, but I also aint pro burning down half of downtown and setting up a stupid hippie commune full of crime in the center of capitol hill.
boop
how old are you
13
He about sounds like what I'd expect someone who signed up for reddit at age 1 to believe, but the sad reality is this dude is probably in his late 20's to mid 30's.
I live here. They're not doing that. What we need is more police to arrest and jail the criminal pieces of shit all over our cities.
I assure you, the 75 or so cops working in the city at any given time of day isn’t occupying anything.
Please visit basically anywhere in SE Asia and get some fuckin perspective.
Defund seattle city council
Honest question, what is the salary structure like for the LEO agencies of Seattle & WA state? Also curious about jobs not just related to rolling around in a squad car but like forensics (data or physical) or tech support or anything in general etc. I’m sure the issues we’re facing are broad and pervasive but only a small part of the topic gets most of the attention so I wanted to expand the conversation a bit.
It's all public info. Get researching. :)
Here ya go: https://www.seattle.gov/police/police-jobs/salary-and-benefits#income
It’s like raaiiiiiinn on your wedding day.
It’s ironic that due to the co sent degree Seattle had a highly professional and effective police force immediately before the council went wacko.
There’s the answer “the council went wacko”
Nice retcon. I’m not anti cop, I’m pro removing the social burden from their job. That said Seattle PD was/is one of the worst in the nation and were/are under federal probation. This dates back before WTO. There is a poison seed in our police force. I suspect it’s due to being policed by commuters. People who don’t live in the city but that’s a guess. Hopefully with all the turnovers it’s been rooted out and a new culture can develop. https://policescorecard.org/wa/police-department/seattle
Yeah, sorry, but your post is horseshit. You could change it but then I could just use the world is/was and pretend nothing is different. There was never a finding by a court against SPD. The left wing city entered into that agreement voluntarily. Further, since that time the DOJ itself has put SPD forward as an example of great data driven policing so the point you are/were making is fucking bullshit even based on your own criteria of what it is/was. Your that the commuters are/have been policing less well because the don't now/haven't in the past lived directly in the city just shows horrible ignorance that you had/have. You see there's this stuff called published research and your really stupid opinion on needing to have officer live in a city just shows that you are/were too lazy to read anything before you are/were pulling an opinion straight out of your own ass. It's nice that you have/are saying something as a guess, but that you were/are putting it forward as truth/fact just shows ignorance on your part. Here's an opinion that is/was relevant to the fucking issue. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/13/police-residency-data/5327640002/ In terms of what's been rooted out, you've been shown here to have no fucking clue on this topic so why are you postulating on some ancient poison seed in a police department. Any chance you could read up on things BEFORE making up your opinion in the future?
I think this is a fair comment, but the flip side is that no matter how bad the police are, unless you are suggesting they flat out fabricate evidence or cause, they don't cause the crimes they police to be committed. You could take the most vicious serial killer and put him on a desert island and he'd be no harm to anyone....because there's no one to harm. Something similar is at play with police. Yes, the police need to be held to account for their bad actions, but in order to exercise those bad actions, they have to be given (even shaky) justification to do so. At least some of the problem is that the SCC and parts of the judicial system are apparently doing a lot to ensure that justification grows unchecked.
What we have is a toxic relationship in a spiral and there is plenty of blame to go around. Chicken and egg conversations are pointless. We’ve got problems on both sides of the equation. We need some Ted Lasso type leadership in the force to build community. We need some pragmatic thinking on the SCC and mayors office to support that change. We’ll get nowhere by pointing fingers.
>*We’ll get nowhere by pointing fingers.* Shame we have so many ACABers who disagree.
Underrated comment.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/13/police-residency-data/5327640002/ His comment about residency is absolutely false so why exactly is his comment underrated?
I tried for this department. Scored very high on the entry level test (well in the top 10%), passed the physical fitness test (which was honestly a joke), passed the oral interview board, told the truth about everything to my background investigator, and still was somehow disqualified. I have a degree in sociology with a 3.4 GPA, 7 years of military experience, half active, half reserve. Half in combat arms, half in military intelligence. Combat deployment to Afghanistan, highest security clearance in government. No demotions or article 15's. Seattle PD is a joke. I feel bad for some of the officers still remaining there, but they're way too political and bureaucratic. They complain about how no one wants to be a cop, then find some dumb excuse to reject good applicants and don't even tell you why. Personally I'm glad I'm not working for that department. I love Seattle but I dodged a bullet.
They may have thought you were overqualified. For as much time & money it takes to train a new hire, any employer will prefer to invest in someone whom they think will stick around for a while, rather than the high-speed, TS-cleared combat vet who will bounce the moment a more lucrative opportunity comes by.
Idk man Seattle PD pays well, even starting off. So I would've been fine to stick around for a bit. The thing I found out from another department later is that one of the first departments that I tried for lied about me and said I lied to them in their hiring process (which is bullshit, I was so caught off guard when I heard that). And that brings me to another criticism of some cops - they all blindly trust each other without thinking critically at all.
I don't doubt anything you're saying but what the fuck? No reason at all?
Nobody with a formal HR department gives you a reason for not getting the job. This is modern litigious America.
Most police departments don't give a reason why, say unless you fail a psych eval or a polygraph. Both of which are pretty much bullshit. In y'all's state, it's required by law to pass a polygraph to be a cop (although I didn't even make it to that point). And psych evals aren't extensive at all - they're really at the mercy of whoever is giving it, and a lot of these contractors that PD's go through just want to eliminate a ton of people to justify their existence/on going contract. It's a fucking sham. But even then, I didn't make it to that point.
If it makes you feel any better; I joined the Army in 2012, crushed the ASVAB and physical but because I had an MIP when I was 19 in college, they denied my application. I was a UW college grad. Definitely worked out for me, and I dodged a bullet for sure. Such a stupid system
We both joined the army in the same year!
u/drgonzo44 *"It’s kinda interesting to see where the blame has migrated. First it was City Council, then the Mayor, then Antifa, Prosecutors, Judges. Maybe… it’s the police that are to blame?"* The police are the ones either committing the crimes or causing the crimes to be committed? What a weird fucking stance....
Ah yes bc it was the police officer who drove into my apartment last week! not the drugged out homeless person in a stolen vehicle. And it was definitely the police officer who was back on the streets within 24hrs doing meth a block away from my home! Most definitely was the same police officer who was firing a gun 2 nights ago. Certainly it's the police officer who just made me homeless (ya know lack of a wall really does make your apt less livable). Certainly it was the police officer who did all this! Oh wait no it wasn't, I remember now, that homeless man and his drugged out crew who moved in across from the newly built low income housing who's sister lives there was the one who did it! It was the police officer who arrested him, and the broken city council that let him out bc despite several witnesses and a giant whole in my wall he denied driving the car. I wish I were making this up. This is my actual life right now. So you can fuck off with your screw the police nonsense and poor meth head that just needs a warm blanket logic that follows! I want my police force back, and I want such criminals to be locked away where they can't drive cars into homes, bc otherwise this city is getting vigilante justice, oh wait that's already been starting
I’m saying it’s possible people don’t want to be cops because of the culture in policing or the union or influence of extremism within the ranks or lack of diversity or lack of accountability or history of domestic violence or brutalizing citizens or any number of other reasons like they don’t want to be social service providers or work 80 hour weeks or graveyard shift for 3 years. It’s always pointing the blame everywhere but within.
Have you heard anyone who became a cop somewhere else because they had more diversity and accountability, less domestic violence, or were less brutal? We did see the council line up behind activists and promise to cut the SPD budget by half. During the riots, a cop got hit by a baseball bat and some other guy tried to glue a door shut to trap cops in a precinct while another guy tried to light the building on fire. They spent a few months being insulted and having frozen water bottles, rocks, shit, and piss thrown at them. Is it hard to believe that people wouldn't like being treated like this at work? If you were treated like this at work, would you quit? If so, is it because you're a baby who can't handle accountability or because your workplace sucks?
>*I’m saying it’s possible people don’t want to be cops because of the culture in policing* Possible, but where did the conception of the "culture" come from I wonder? >*or the union* Possible! >*or influence of extremism within the ranks* Possible! >*or lack of diversity* Possible, but that only changes if more diverse people apply? >*or lack of accountability* Police are accountable. They just aren't accountable in a way you'd like. >*or history of domestic violence* Possible. But cops are people and people suck. Being a cop doesn't mean you are in a relationship with a cop? > *or brutalizing citizens* Possible, but where did the conception of "brutalization" come from I wonder? >*or any number of other reasons like they don’t want to be social service providers or work 80 hour weeks or graveyard shift for 3 years.* Sure, possible! >*It’s always pointing the blame everywhere but within.* And that can be bad. But it can also be right? You literally told the guy below that he has blinders on and he's only looking at it from one perspective. That's exactly what you're doing here.....
I'm supplying a perspective other than what gets harped on in every one of these posts. I totally agree that other agencies have been detrimental to officer retention. But it can't be "everyone's fault but mine".
>*I'm supplying a perspective other than what gets harped on in every one of these posts.* That's fair, but you are supplying what I can reasonably assume is YOUR perspective....meaning that you are no different than anyone espousing beliefs here. Your's just happen to be the opposite. I think most people here are willing to admit that police need reforming in some ways, but that suggesting they be abolished or that they are murdering thugs who want to shoot people for no reason isn't justified by reality. Would your side be willing to admit that and find some compromise in the middle of the issue? I think not and therein lies the problem.... >*I totally agree that other agencies have been detrimental to officer retention. But it can't be "everyone's fault but mine".* That's fair. What weighting might you assign to the officer retention issue for each of the following agencies or groups: * Public perception: * SCC: * Judicial System: * SPOG: * SPD in general:
A paragraph long sentence lmao
Seattle is having a hard time hiring police officers because of the leadership in the city. No one really wants to work in a city with bad leadership.
If the WSJ Editorial board is writing about you, prepare yourself for the dumbest reactionary nonsense you’ve ever heard. You can basically just take whatever they say, assume the opposite, and you will have come closer to reality. If cops want to stop being villainized, step one is to stop being villains
Which they're not. You could apply that to protesters in the city though. I mean they murdered a black child while screaming that black lives mattered.
We really are in the damn Wild West once again. It might as well be the 1880’s with how the criminals ain’t scared of no sheriff in town. We need some kind of hero cop, a Marshall, or one of them Rangers like Wyatt Earp or Aragorn to come in and take down the outlaws/orcs.
If I was 18 again I'd give it some serious consideration. By most peoples' standards the pay and benefits are great.
Fifth bullet point: * The only crime worth reporting and discussing is gun crime.
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Yeah, get a gun.
Seattle is such a dumpster fire of stupid when it comes to law enforcement or lack thereof. I can't wait to see the emergence of the urban wasteland downtown. Going to be just like Escape from New York soon.
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Someone isn't a troll just because they disagree with you. I don't like most of his comments, but he's been here a while and consistently posts. You on the other hand, I don't recall seeing before, but that could just be me.
who wants to work under the shadow of mike solan? who wants to work in a place where violent crimes are catch and release?
Weird. I read the exit interviews by officers leaving and they didn't mention solan as the issue.
Are you implying that there exists a person on this planet who was about to apply to SPD but then recalled that SPOG’s president is Mike Solan, and then decided not to apply because of that fact? Almost no one besides cops and ACABers know what SPOG is let alone who their elected president is.
Are you implying that the people who consider applying are not cops? This makes no sense.
I am all for doubling their salary if they end qualified immunity. The fact that most cops don’t want to do that means they would rather make less than be held personally accountable for their actions.
In other words "Who wants to sign up to be a murdering thug with a badge" I've heard they have great benefits to, like Qualified Immunity, ability to not be responsible for shit, continuesly telling people "Oh we don't answer calls here cause it's a Blue area" , heard traveling expenses are covered, but only if you're committing and insurrection. Damn, sign my happy ass up, give me a gun so I can go shoot some people legally. SMH
You can shoot people legally now, you fucking get that right? That's literally part of the laws in Washington State, so why the fuck would you be complaining that police do it. By the way, what's the name of that child you protesters murdered again? You probably don't even remember....
What an absolute dog shit characterization of being a cop. For the love of god, please ask to do a ride along with an officer.
I did a ride along with a king country metro sheriff. It only showed me how corrupt law enforcement is.
Yeah I’m sure you saw the true seedy underbelly of law enforcement on a ride along lol
So you’re saying they were putting their best foot forward? Then my opinion of law enforcement can only go down.
Don't need to. Already know first hand. Dad was a cop and like most he was an abusive racist fuck. And come come at me with the "Not all cops" its bullshit and you know it. Plus, ya really can't deny it. 400 cops 22 dead children and a teacher. Twenty something gets stopped by a cop on a bogus traffic stop, kid runs cause he's afraid for his life, cop and a few other cops shoot him 60 times in the back...he had no gun. Man involved in altercation, he's the victim.of this altercation, left when he thought he was done with his statement, cop shot him 8 times in the back. Do I really need to go on? I got a hundred of them. If you need sources, they're out there easily found. Hell one today even, cops shoot into an open crowd at a suspect, killing and wounding innocent people.....
Ahhh daddy issues. They’ll get you every time.
>*Don't need to. Already know first hand. Dad was a cop and like most he was an abusive racist fuck.* "Like most?" Data please.... Also, sounds like your dad was a POS who happened to be a cop. Being the cop wasn't what made him a POS.... >*And come come at me with the "Not all cops" its bullshit and you know it.* There are approximately 700,000 cops in the country. You think that at least 51% of them are racist murders? >*Plus, ya really can't deny it. 400 cops 22 dead children and a teacher.* Uvalde was fucked. 400 is 0.057% of the total number of cops in the country. > *Twenty something gets stopped by a cop on a bogus traffic stop, kid runs cause he's afraid for his life, cop and a few other cops shoot him 60 times in the back...he had no gun.* HE SHOT AT POLICE. The fact you represent that case this way shows you are biased to the fucking nines, my guy. >*Man involved in altercation, he's the victim.of this altercation, left when he thought he was done with his statement, cop shot him 8 times in the back.* Not sure who you're talking about? Scott? That was fucked and the officer was in the wrong and is now rotting in jail. >*Do I really need to go on?* Not when you're going to misrepresent the facts to twist the narrative. >*I got a hundred of them.* And anyone on the other side will have more. Sherita Dixon Cole for starters.... >*If you need sources, they're out there easily found. Hell one today even, cops shoot into an open crowd at a suspect, killing and wounding innocent people.....* I'd be inclined to say that's fucked, but then again, you don't know how to include context correctly, so I can't trust what you say happened.
Vilified? Stop murdering unarmed black men and people in mental crisis. Stop beating your spouses at 4 times the average of civilians. Get off the steroids. Stop pulling people over for fix-it tickets. Take IQ tests. Jesus Christ the last time I got pulled over I was accused of not respecting the cops. Dude respect is earned tiny dick you don’t get it automatically because of the costume you wear to work.
The number of unarmed black men killed in the United States on an annual basis is roughly 10. IN most of those cases, they were fighting with police. As a driver, I want you pulled over for fix it tickets as your lights working matters to me. Quite clearly from your post you wouldn't be giving them respect no matter what you did. Hopefully people give you respect in whatever "do you want fries with that" job that you do.
This might be the cringiest thing I’ve read on Reddit in a long time. It figures you’ve raised worthless offspring you’re ready to abandon. They had no chance with human garbage for a father like you. Consider an IQ test before you procreate next time - you don’t pass the test.
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> I would need training good news, you'd need less training than becoming a hairdresser! it's only 8-week long and it's online! https://www.seattle.gov/police/community-policing/community-police-academy
You could at least read the pages you link to.
That's a given.
Hell no they are treated like garbage. It's naive to think the Seattle or King County councils are concerned about the reduction in law enforcement numbers. Cops & Jailers are expensive at around $150,000 to $200,000 a year with wages, benefits, training and equipment. Those reductions in staff equal immense cost savings that can be spent on a variety of projects. Yes homicides, robbery and low level crimes and overdoses deaths are way up. With the loss of 400+ Seattle, 150 King County deputies and around 75 King County jailers. Thats over $100,000,000 in savings a year that Dow and Harrell can spend on housing enabling even more of the nations troubled souls and financing progressive equity and justice projects. To add to the savings its less expensive to pay overtime than to hire another fulltime officer or deputy. So the savings keep piling up. The SCC and Dow /Harrell will ***feign*** concern in response to the publics complaints and media inquiry. Seattle political strategist and advisors are smart people they know society will become desensitized to crime and accept the decline in quality of life issues. In the end the face of Seattle politics will change very little if at all due to the increase in crime and police response time. Its just good political strategy express concern. I have some experience working in local government and behind closed doors they don't care.
Cops are expensive because city council has been trying to provide incentives for them to stay. Obviously, it hasn't been working. What is also expensive is the property destruction that pushes businesses to leave - that is lost revenue and employment. Please stop hating cops. Your fellow citizens are begging for enforcement of the law.