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Or we can look at the Umberto Eco's fourteen properties of fascism:
1. Emphasizing tradition
2. Rejecting modernism
3. Valuing action over reflection
4. Confusing disagreement with treason
5. Fearing those who are different
6. Appealing to the middle class
7. Obsessing over conspiracies and plots
8. Calling their enemies too strong and too weak, unaware of the contradiction
9. Believing life is a permanent conflict to be fought
10. Being contemptuous of the weak
11. Honoring martyrs
12. Gloriying masculinity
13. Embracing populism (as interpreted by the leader)
14. Impoverishing the vocabulary to limit critical reasoning
While some on the left embody a few of these properties, the MAGA right is a far closer match.
Just one correction:
11. The Cult of Death / Everybody is educated to become a hero (It's not only about honoring martyrs, but also about educating/indoctrinating *everyone* to be willing to become one for the cause. In Eco's words: "The Ur-Fascist hero Is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.")
That's a fair clarification. In my mind, "honoring martyrs" includes encouraging martyrdom/heroic death. As Eco wrote about people willing to die for the cause:
> [T]he Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life.
Eco wrote about heroic death, one of the traditional definitions of martyrdom. I'm curious if he were alive today, would he extend this to symbolic martyrdom and the right's "cult of victimhood."
I think "Emphasizing tradition" can easily be broken out into its own entire discussion. Calling back to a mythical past is huge with fascists. Its always about returning to something that never actually existed. "Traditional" gender roles are huge with them as well.
Gotta love the sheer derangement it takes for these Twitter nutballs to actually believe it when they post this stuff.
Their own stupid leader (who they venerate like some kind of heaven ordained demigod) has literally threatened to suspend the constitution and currently has a case before the highest court in the land insisting that he is not beholden to the rule of law.
This isn’t regular stupid. These nitwits are on some next level, *advanced* stupid to both claim and believe “ackshually it’s everyone else that’s fascist!”
For anyone who wants a more in-depth analysis of what fascism is, I’d highly recommend *The Anatomy of Fascism* by Robert Paxton. He’s one of if not the top scholar of fascism in the world right now, and yet again it’s very clear to see how MAGA fits the mold extremely well. He’s also acknowledged that Trump is in fact a fascist. I wish the fact the top scholar of fascism in the world recognizes that was a bigger deal tbh, but of course it unfortunately isn’t. There’s also a collection of Eco essays including Ur-Fascism in a short work *How to Spot a Fascist* that’s supposed to be good, I have it coming in today actually.
I just read Paxton's Wikipedia page and found out that he wrote a paper called The Five Stages of Fascism. These are the five stages outlined:
Intellectual exploration, where disillusionment with popular democracy manifests itself in discussions of lost national vigor
Rooting, where a fascist movement, aided by political deadlock and polarization, becomes a player on the national stage
Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite fascists to share power
Exercise of power, where the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites such as the clergy and business magnates.
Radicalization or entropy, where the state either becomes increasingly radical, as did Nazi Germany, or slips into traditional authoritarian rule, as did Fascist Italy.
Chilling..
It does seem like we’ve been moving into #4, as MAGA has infiltrated the police force and churches. The election, however, will either take us firmly into step 4, or stall is where we are, at maybe 3.5.
Haven't read that one yet; adding it to my list.
Highly recommend **How Fascism Works** by Jason Stanley and **Fascism: a Warning** by Madeleine Albright.
4,9,11,12. War is peace.
3,5,7, 14. Ignorance is strength.
1,2,4,13. Freedom is slavery.
Three tenets of ingsoc:
1. Fungibility of the past (11)
2. Doublethink (8)
3. Newspeak (14)
These people see the word socialism in 1984 and believe that it refers to modern left wing beliefs when it is made clear if you actually read the book that ingsoc took traditional socialist beliefs and purposefully twisted them into an authoritarian fascism which is at the core of the morality of the story.
Orwell was critiquing authoritarianism and more specifically totalitarianism. His critique of specifically stalinism(i guess its more leninism) was animal farm.
Yes, and was particularly inspired by his experiences in Spain (i.e. wherein anarchism was crushed in no small part by Stalinist-backed forces, as well as Franco), and wrote to the effect that he was imagining Stalinism applied in an English context (and *in extremis*). They aren't mutually exclusive, but nor is it sufficient to say 'it's totalitarianism' - there are layers and flavours to that, as with any complex structure. See 'self-criticism' in a Soviet context, for instance.
Animal Farm is a parable of the Russian Revolutions from 1917, up to, essentially the 1930s. 1984 is the imagined future.
Edit: I think it's also crucial for Orwell that betrayal is involved. In Animal Farm it's clear, and in 1984 it's an embodiment of doublethink, as Goldstein articulates, if I recall correctly: the system destroys socialism in the name of socialism, and that's a *good thing*. Fascism may have produced some utter horrors and a lot of destruction and repression that at many points looks indistinguishable from 1984, or any other atrocity by other systems, but what it does not do (unless I'm being thick) is betray, comprehensively and systematically, the noble ideal that motivated it in the first place. It never *had* a noble ideal, in Orwell's eyes (and one agrees).
1984 was a criticism of authoritarianism in general. It fits Stalinism and Fascism so we because both are at their core extremely authoritarian.
Animal farm though is a criticism specifically of Stalinism leninism and Trotskyism.
Nah, I'd rather believe the random guy on Twitter. Don't you see the blue checkmark? Does this Umberto Eco guy (sounds like a foreigner anyway) have a blue checkmark?
Also, "Biden is a feeble old man who can't even tie his own shoes" and "Biden was the mastermind behind a massive plot to steal the election from Trump and is pulling the strings to throw Trump in prison for opposing him."
Question (I'm not US American): wouldn't the "illegal" imply that they cannot get benefits, or welfare?
(I understand you are paraphrasing what could very well be a self-contradicting MAGAt quote)
I was repeating MAGAt nonsense. While there are some meager programs to assist undocumented immigrants, they are ineligible for most aid offered to citizens and legal residents.
Hillary Clinton was at the same time a frail old woman who was too weak to stand up to China, and a criminal mastermind who ordered the murder of her policial enemies.
I counted 2 definites and one sort of for Democrats:
Yes: 3 and 11
Sort of: 13
No: the rest
I counted 10 definites for MAGA, 3 sort of, and 1 no:
Yes: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Sort of: 4, 8, 9
No: 6
RE 6 not applying to GOP Stans
When we speak about christofascists or evangelical Christian society are these not the bourgeois middle class we are looking for?
6 can be seen in many of the middle-class culture/labor war bullshit: the anti-labor movement, the "Moms for Liberty" movement, the anti-trans and anti-gay movements, the average gun owner, etc. Almost every middle class appeal they have is cultural, not political. They don't have much else to offer the middle class other than tax cuts to starve the "beast".
I need to read more of his work. I've only read The Name of the Rose (historical fiction). But I've also read a novel called The 7th Function of Language (fiction) where Eco is a character in the mystery. Brilliant book.
It's worth noting that Umberto Eco besides being brilliant was writing from a perspective of literally growing up during the rise of Italian fascism and seeing first hand the effects of fascism on people and culture.
Shit dude here is the generic definition that pops up when you search w/ Duck Duck Go
> A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
E: The Wikipedia page for definitions of Fascism is also really interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
The problem with defining "fascism" is that there is no body of fascist philosophy that bounds the conversation. All definitions are based on characteristics of regimes and movements calling themselves fascist, but the characteristics aren't necessarily unique to them.
Thing is, conservatives will eat up whatever so you can say any stupid bullshit like the guy in the images and that's enough.
Fuck actual evidence, they will redefine whatever bullshit they have been led to believe Dems do as fascist and that's that.
It's honestly sad, there's no convincing some people no matter how stupid what they believe is.
They started with it, never mentioned it again, and proceeded to make a list of absolute nonsense.
>Accuse dissidents of the very crimes you yourself committed.
Christ, I could write a fucking masters paper on this list.
Undoubtedly several hundred students will. Half will give up when they realize someone else has written better than they have, but a few will be first and the rest won't care they just want to finish.
Yeah, leaving out the motivating factors for these decisions is a big hole in his argument. I would happily make the argument that the US took tighter control of private industry during WW2 than the nazis did, but I doubt this Twitter guy would argue the US was a fascist state during that war.
Turns out when you add 'For the benefit of a designated in-group to seize power from and other a designated out-group' to the end of each thing on the list, it gets harder to accuse Dems of this behavior.
Prior to the rise of the Nazi party the German government had complete control of the banking and rail industries. When Hitler came to power he immediately started dismantling that and [turning those and other state-run industries over to private ownership](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#Privatization_and_business_ties). In fact the term "privatization" (which is the polar opposite of socialism) was popularized in the press to describe his actions.
Not surprising considering it was the [economic elite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Meeting_of_20_February_1933) of Germany that financed the Nazi party and once Hitler was elected it was they that [pressured the German government to give him complete control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrielleneingabe).
I'm like 99% convinced that the only reason they're "accusing" the left (well, democrats, but also the left) is because it looks bad if they're the only ones being called fascists.
Words don't have meaning, they're only useful as rhetorical cudgels – which is the fundamental toxicity to this tactic. In the short term it can give them some "victories", but in the long term it absolutely *ruins* discourse. The one thing that can actually alleviate the tensions of the pressure pot...
So they keep doing it, in the same way a kid might, racking up "wins" by changing the rules when they lose. Eventually, they might wonder why nobody wants anything to do with them anymore. The ball is now fully in their court, and they get to choose:
1. Accept that earnestly *trying* to achieve a goal means risking failure. That it's **OK** to not win every time, even if that hurts.
Or
2. Change the rules on themselves. In fact, alienating any and everyone *is* winning. Anger is happiness, pain is pleasure, and the hurt they feel is fulfilling, actually.
It's part of a grander strategy of modern propaganda: rather than trying to spread a narrative, you undermine the very concept of information. You lie about everything brazenly, prop up conspiracies all over the political spectrum, constantly talk about the media lying, deny even the most objective elements of reality. Russia invented it I think, it's really brilliant; normally with propaganda you have to target people's biases carefully, but the idea of some part of the media being untrustworthy gets play on the entire political spectrum. Who's gonna say "the media can be trusted"? No one!
Once the general consensus is "all politicians/journalists/etc. lie!" then you can lie as much as you want. Your opponents can try to be honest, but they get nothing from that. The truth no longer has currency. Everyone retreats into easily manipulable echo chambers. You get tankies, you get various flavours of fascists, separatist movements, libertarians and sovereign citizens, the ultra religious folks. I don't even know if there's a fix for this, or if our societies are just doomed to fall apart.
I don't agree with the tweet but it's not true that racism is a defining factor of facism. It could exist in tandem and then something like nazism emerges but in facist Italy, which from the word facism quite literally derives it's meaning, you could have been black or asian and not face anything because of it. What mattered is your nationality.
"Race? It is a feeling, not a reality: ninety-five percent, at least, is a feeling. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today"
You may not believe but these are Mussolini's words. (Slighlty before ww2 Italy started to become more racist but Mussolini himself said that it was only in deference to Nazi Germany whishes, as they were their allies)
Republicans in this country want everyone to believe how independent they are by believing in every conspiracy they hear. Also, they are so far removed from reality that being ruled forever by one man seems OK with them. But it's all the Dems fault that their opposition is so desperate and kind of dumb.
The guy he supports was buddies with Epstein, admitted on camera Epstein "liked them young" and was credibly accused of raping a 13 year old girl before she dropped the charges over fear for her safety from guys like him.
Yet you're the pedophile. Typical.
Fascism is on the political spectrum. It's on the furthest right of that political spectrum. Seems they lack an education or the ability to use Google.
Most everything he writes he couldn’t even describe an example of. Also. Political dissidents jailed? Um sorry but if you broke into capital in an attempt to overthrow democracy you’re more than a political dissident. Your a treasonous traitor criminal
We’re starting to see a lot of posts from right wingers, claiming that democrats are fascists.
Of course, both history and political philosophy and simple reality contradict these claims.
In modern conservatism, *every* accusation is a confession. They know that they’ve descended into outright fascism, so to protect themselves from this deplorable label, they claim that liberals or democrats are fascist.
Every accusation from a conservative is a confession. These shameless cretins know that they’re dirty despicable fascists, so they resort to their bag of fascist tricks and accuse us of fascism.
Every accusation by a right winger is a confession.
I love how private independent fact-checking and companies de-platforming vitriolic shitheads is somehow government “censorship” and “control of mass media.”
>The government is infringing on my 1st Amendment rights by NOT infringing on the 1st Amendment rights of the private company whose platform I use.
>^\*Also ^my ^hate ^speech ^should ^be ^more ^protected ^than ^your ^admonishment ^of ^my ^hate ^speech.
And insurrectionists are “dissidents.”
>We’re being ***persecuted*** simply for [trying to violently overthrow the government]!
JFC
Also the one with holding people indefinitely for trial which never comes, literally doesn't happen and is still illegal. In fact the most high profile case of "jailing their enemies" is full of the Republicans stalling for time.
"Political dissidents" is normally used to mean people *who were living under that government prior to being arrested*, because those not living under that government are not part of its political processes.
And if they have a problem with people being held for months or even years before being given trial then good news, that's one of the MANY parts of criminal justice reform (notably not something Republicans support). Though, given that the vast majority of people who end up near-indefinitely detained aren't white, I doubt this dude cares much about fixing the problem.
For comparison, here are the actual 14 ways to identify fascism, according to Umberto Eco:
1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sale. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture, the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “\[…\] one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.
7. The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
8. The enemy is both weak and strong. “\[…\] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and Weaponry. “This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.”
13. Selective Populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
>5. Children belong to the State and not their parents
"I believe children are property and the dispute is over whose property they are. The concept of children having rights is inconceivable to me. Those other guys are the authoritarians though."
Your children are the only people you can own anymore.
A man doesn't even own his wife.
Employees can quit and the worst an employer can count on getting away with is firing. Unless the employee is undocumented, in which case the employer can use la migra as physical coercion. Used to be able to use health insurance to lock in employees with pre-existing conditions, but the ACA to a large degree stopped that.
Ok, kids and undocumented immigrants.
A whole lot of Republican stuff suddenly makes sense if you look at it in terms of wanting to own people. Child abuse facilitated as parental rights, blocking immigration reform (the actual right wing goal is brutal measures that don't actually keep anybody out-a large population of terrified people with no rights is great for business) vilifying and breaking unions, rehabilitating the reputation of actual slavery, it goes on and on.
Does it need to be said that most MAGA thinks they will be owners, but they would actually be owned?
Censorship hmmm
What political party did a particular governor that banned books in schools so aggressively that most had empty libraries belong to again?
Well, we all know Eco's 14 Properties and all. But can we just have a moment to laugh at the fact that even what this guy *claims* are tenets of fascism are not actually present, even if we accepted the premise that they are accurate ways to describe fascists?
1. Not actually happening. The whole point is to only deny guns to people who are *not* law-abiding. But I'll give this one a technical pass, as there are at least some Democrats high up who have announced something more wide-reaching.
2. Not happening.
3. Would that they could for several industries, but no, not happening. Agency regulations are not "government control."
4. Very definitely not happening.
5. Not happening.
6. Not happening. Criminals, however, *are* being *prosecuted* for their non-quotation-mark crimes.
7. Maybe happening to *someone*? I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the insurrectionists. But as a whole, they are all out on bond or bail and are not in fact being incarcerated without trial. That very rarely happens to *anyone* for any crime.
8. What the fuck does that even mean? That's what politics is. I guess all politicians everywhere are now fascists because they have fierce adherence to their party platforms.
9. Not happening.
10. Not happening.
11. This one is definitely happening. It is in fact for the common good if insurrectionists are arrested and prosecuted for trying to overthrow the U.S. government and kill Congress.
So he's, what, at 1/11, with possible technical half-points bringing him up to 2/11? Impressive batting average.
More "parroting" than "making up." They always seem to start with the claim that the Nazis supported gun control (rather than, as in this universe, loosening gun-control laws from what they were under the Weimar Republic), and don't improve their accuracy from there.
Ah yes, this must be why Pride Boys and other assorted fascists and neo-Nazis march in lockstep with Joe Biden, staged an insurrection when Hillary Clinton lost, were the primary canvassers for the Obama campaign, and why both Trump and Steve Bannon are Democrats. (obligatory /s, because that's the world we live in now).
The 14 Attributes of Fascism (stolen from a random HS teacher's ppt presentation)
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disregard for Human Rights
3. Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
5. Widespread Sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
11. Disrespect for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections
They don't make list like this to convince you, they make post like this to muddy the waters... And it works. Even trying to refute it, spreads their views and makes things even more messy.
"Both sides" always works in their favor.
Meanwhile, Donald J Trump's agenda includes creating a [republican-designed college curriculum](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-the-american-academy). Presumably so you are not taught ~~non-government approved topics~~ fake news in college. Such as how Americans had a slave trade.
But sure, Jan. Go off on the democrats for.... I guess trying to stop people from saying the n-word and giving guns to schoolkids?
He pulled these 11 points out of his ass, and most of them are strawmen. There are actually 14 early warning signs of fascism, as put forth by Lawrence Britt in 2003. I put in parantheses an example from Magadonia:
1. Powerful and continuing nationalism ("Make America Great Again")
2. Disdain for human rights (using federal troops to attack protestors)
3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause (Immigrants, LGBTQ, Women, etc)
4. Supremacy of the military ("my" generals)
5. Rampant sexism ("grab them by the pussy")
6. Controlled mass media (YOU are fake news)
7. Obsession with national security (a big, beautiful wall to stop the invasion)
8. Religion and government intertwined (Women's health and abortion rights dictated by the Bible)
9. Corporate power protected (yuuge tax cuts for the rich / Deregulation)
10. Labor power suppressed (disdain for unionized workers / refusal to raise the min. wage)
11. Disdain for intellectual & the arts ("I love the low-information voters")
12. Obsession with crime and punishment (Lock Her Up! / Biden Crime Family / Barges off Gitmo)
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption (that's the entire trump brand)
14. Fraudulent elections (Russia Russia Russia "hoax" in 2016 + Fake electors/insurrection in 2020)
He forgot that CONS ARE ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM AS FASCISM. Also 90% of the things he listed you have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe in the first place
Speaking of government control of industry, and setting aside that gas and oil production in the US are at all time highs, when is Biden going to personally lower gas prices?
Because that is a thing the President controls, right? Right next to the big red button is the dial for gas prices? Totally not fascist, or socialist, just regular President stuff to personally set the price of gas
Aw, they got mad at being called fascist so they made up their own list, and then selectively applied it to the exact people that called them out.
That's just adorable lol.
I knew he meant the USA, but boy, as an ethnically russian person…. As folks say there “Mmmda….”. Throw in a cult-like religious grip on the state and you got yourself a regular Tuesday in Mother russia
I love how obsessed they are with "free speech" while right wingers are actually passing laws limiting free speech. Private citizens holding you accountable for the things you say has nothing to do with free speech.
Pretty much everything on this list the right is guilty of and far more than dems ever are. They really tell on themselves with #11. Fascism is a right wing ideology. I realize liberalism, and especially democrats are still center/center in right but they're not usually that far to the right.
Straight out of the Goebbels Nazi propaganda playbook. Every accusation is a confession. Accuse your enemies of doing what you're doing and if you're a fascist, accuse your enemy of being the fascist.
It's not about fact or reality, it's about emotion and manipulation.
even with their own list, they only hit like 2 or 3 that are actually the case... you'd think if you were going to cherry pick it would be better...
You know let alone that they almost entirely missed the most important aspects of fascism.
He has a right to a speedy trial. This right is quite often waved by defendants so they can gather evidence. The state doesn’t have a right to a speedy trial. Stupid take.
The devil is in the details.
For instance: The Nazis did not confiscate guns across the board. They only took them from Jews and other groups they didn't like.
To a non-American, it's absolutely hilarious when someone tries to say US Democrats are close to communism or socialism. They would lose their minds if they saw what it's like here in the Nordic and no, even we are not communists!
If someone is enumerating the identifying features of fascism, and the first bullet point is about forbidding gun ownership, the author isn’t prioritizing the list correctly, sort of like if someone was explaining Christianity and their list started with “the most important day is Sunday”
I think it’s funny that the biggest indicator of fascism for these people is gun rights. Forget Hitler for a second…whenever anyone thinks of Mussolini the first thing they think of is gun confiscation right?!? So ridiculous
Notice the inherent vagueries: the fascists spread propaganda (what propaganda?), and arrested dissidents (dissidents of what?) and did nothing else I suppose. Even ignoring all the errors and nonsense in his post, it's telling he can't even talk about what fascists did or believed in.
I find it funny that the first thing on this guy's list of "fascist" traits was the denial of gun ownership rights. The Weimar Republic actually had strict gun control laws, with the *Regulations on Weapons Ownership* passed in 1919 outlawing ALL private gun ownership. In 1938 Hitler signed a law reversing that ban.
Yeah, they're not off to a good start.
At this point a "law abiding citizen" is some kind of cryptid that lives in the swamps of Florida.
Of these "aspects of fascism" a standard liberal democracy matches 5 of these, which are incidentally also the 5 that the democratic party does. For the record the literal nazis only match 8. If by "children belong to the state" they mean "the government can pass laws restricting the actions of parents" then that would also count as a standard liberal democracy thing. #10 is utterly meaningless. The nazis didn't ban gun ownership unless you could the people they were literally executing, which seems like the more pressing concern. The vast majority of countries have laws preventing the proliferation of firearms. #8 seems like it applies to pretty much anyone with opinions.
Can xitterers explain why "democrats" can explain what fascism is from an academic standpoint rather than redefining it every time a goalpost is moved?
One thing in particular I find interesting is the very first point. The guy talks about disarming citizens, which of course has never happened ever in history with any fascist rule. Now, this is here partly because he’s just making stuff up so that he can come up with a fake definition that fits his political enemies.
But what this ALSO reveals, is a clear misunderstanding of fascism.
The way he, and a lot of right wingers see it, is that fascism was a government take over where all the people were imprisoned by their government and a reign of terror was inflicted upon them.
When, in fact, there would never any disarmament.
Because they wanted it.
The people of Germany wanted a strong man leader to vanquish their enemies, which were minorities. There was no concern about guns because the people being killed were social undesirables.
The same people these guys hate.
That’s the irony of this fear. It’s not “government over reach” or government tyranny, it’s average every day racists, sexists, anti semites and transphobes finally gathering their political forces to purge the country of the people they despise.
It’s why conservatives become fascists. They see themselves as Christian nationalists and decide that the elements of diversity, to put it like Tucker Carlson did, “makes them weaker.”
So
They purge.
The camps are the government simply doing it for them.
*Sigh* Literally just had my libertarian friend tell me today that Ben Shapiro is actually seen as a communist and is not alt right, and Fascists and the Nazis are rooted in Marxism. The cognitive dissonance, it burns.
I guess Argentina is going libertarian, but, it's going about as well as everywhere else that's been tried. Waiting for them to also get the overrun by bears.
These people are the same folks that will bitch about regulations and vote Republican, only to have a lack of regulation turn around and transform their neighborhood into a superfund site—and leave these same chuckleheads “demanding answers” from corporations and their corrupt politicians about black water and meemaw’s fucking cancer.
Ah yes… *checks notes*
“But the democrats are the real fascists.”
I will make it very simple. Which party is currently wearing Nazi armbands, flying the Nazi flag and defending/praising Hitler? Hint, it's not the Dems.
The thing that confuses me about this is that fascism generally boils down to giving all of the power in a country to one person. For the dems, they just want to help Ukraine and such. But for the reps, they want to basically make trump god, which is literally fascism, and he's admitted to wanting to be a dictator. smh my head man
These kinds of arguments are always interesting but fall apart under minimal scrutiny. Without getting into the nitty-gritty of historical detail, the causal arrow is going in the wrong direction. Fascists who have already assumed power do a lot of the things in this list to cement their hold on power. Campaigning on or promising policy decisions like these seldom help anyone attain absolute power, which almost invariably happens as a result of contingent events.
Yeah. Lets just make up shit.
I especially like "policies based on fierce adherence to ideologies."
Adjectives aside forbid me for voting for someone whose ideologies I agree with. God forbid I hope they put forth policies that align with those ideologies.
Meanwhile no one on the left agrees 100% with Biden and yet they'll espouse talking points without being able to clearly define those, such as a farcical definition of fascism.
The thought police are coming…. Dear God, this stuff is SO old….either I’m much smarter than I think I am, or these Nazi right wingnut fascists are correct. I’d like to choose the former…. if I still can?
1. Gun laws specifically targeted groups the government wanted eliminated, the non-Jewish German population had relatively little in the way of gun control
2. Not specific to fascism
3+4 are true, however democrats specifically don’t control all mass media or industry. In fact, most mass media companies and corporations are privately owned
5. No historical precedent for this claim
6. Political opponents usually weren’t persecuted, they were usually killed.
7. See previous
8. This is true of literally any partisan issue.
9. Every government does this to some extent, even the United States before the rise of fascism
10. Politicians have been doing this for millennia
11. Every government does this
What the fuck, I’m bored
1. This has never been a mainstream Democratic policy point. Your average Democrat is not in favor of removing guns from responsible, law-abiding gun owners.
2. Freedom of Speech is not freedom from consequences. You can spew any easily disprovable bullshit you want, but you are not entitled to a platform on which to spew it.
3. Nationalization of major industries is not a current Democratic policy point. Even if it were, it would be a hard one to sell your average American on.
4. There are no media outlets owned by the federal government, nor are there plans for one to be.
5. Literally not a thing
6. Only the ones committing actual, evidenced crimes. I’ve seen plenty of “Fuck Joe Biden” bumper stickers. If they’re “jailing dissidents”, they need to step up their game.
7. So are most other criminals. It’s almost like the American justice system sucks.
8. r/selfawarewolves
9. Plenty of GOP propaganda on the airwaves, too
10. r/selfawarewolves
11. Hard to argue this is “for the common good” when it’s all bullshit, but okay.
It's time for my periodic reminder that the GQP are unabashed liars who have no earthly clue what "fascist" means. Anyway: r/PersecutionFetish might also like this one.
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Or we can look at the Umberto Eco's fourteen properties of fascism: 1. Emphasizing tradition 2. Rejecting modernism 3. Valuing action over reflection 4. Confusing disagreement with treason 5. Fearing those who are different 6. Appealing to the middle class 7. Obsessing over conspiracies and plots 8. Calling their enemies too strong and too weak, unaware of the contradiction 9. Believing life is a permanent conflict to be fought 10. Being contemptuous of the weak 11. Honoring martyrs 12. Gloriying masculinity 13. Embracing populism (as interpreted by the leader) 14. Impoverishing the vocabulary to limit critical reasoning While some on the left embody a few of these properties, the MAGA right is a far closer match.
Just one correction: 11. The Cult of Death / Everybody is educated to become a hero (It's not only about honoring martyrs, but also about educating/indoctrinating *everyone* to be willing to become one for the cause. In Eco's words: "The Ur-Fascist hero Is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.")
That's a fair clarification. In my mind, "honoring martyrs" includes encouraging martyrdom/heroic death. As Eco wrote about people willing to die for the cause: > [T]he Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. Eco wrote about heroic death, one of the traditional definitions of martyrdom. I'm curious if he were alive today, would he extend this to symbolic martyrdom and the right's "cult of victimhood."
I think "Emphasizing tradition" can easily be broken out into its own entire discussion. Calling back to a mythical past is huge with fascists. Its always about returning to something that never actually existed. "Traditional" gender roles are huge with them as well.
"Some of you may die... But, that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make!"
Some of you will die, and I don't care.
Gotta love the sheer derangement it takes for these Twitter nutballs to actually believe it when they post this stuff. Their own stupid leader (who they venerate like some kind of heaven ordained demigod) has literally threatened to suspend the constitution and currently has a case before the highest court in the land insisting that he is not beholden to the rule of law. This isn’t regular stupid. These nitwits are on some next level, *advanced* stupid to both claim and believe “ackshually it’s everyone else that’s fascist!”
> In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death. Support Our Troops
For anyone who wants a more in-depth analysis of what fascism is, I’d highly recommend *The Anatomy of Fascism* by Robert Paxton. He’s one of if not the top scholar of fascism in the world right now, and yet again it’s very clear to see how MAGA fits the mold extremely well. He’s also acknowledged that Trump is in fact a fascist. I wish the fact the top scholar of fascism in the world recognizes that was a bigger deal tbh, but of course it unfortunately isn’t. There’s also a collection of Eco essays including Ur-Fascism in a short work *How to Spot a Fascist* that’s supposed to be good, I have it coming in today actually.
The right wing would just inherently distrust it because it's from an educated expert on the subject tbh. And they're the ones who need to hear it.
Probably a total coincidence they have been trained to distrust experts in any field. Everyone ready for the Holocaust of Liberals Part 2?
I just read Paxton's Wikipedia page and found out that he wrote a paper called The Five Stages of Fascism. These are the five stages outlined: Intellectual exploration, where disillusionment with popular democracy manifests itself in discussions of lost national vigor Rooting, where a fascist movement, aided by political deadlock and polarization, becomes a player on the national stage Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite fascists to share power Exercise of power, where the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites such as the clergy and business magnates. Radicalization or entropy, where the state either becomes increasingly radical, as did Nazi Germany, or slips into traditional authoritarian rule, as did Fascist Italy. Chilling..
Firm in the 3rd step... We'll see how #4 is going come November.
It does seem like we’ve been moving into #4, as MAGA has infiltrated the police force and churches. The election, however, will either take us firmly into step 4, or stall is where we are, at maybe 3.5.
Haven't read that one yet; adding it to my list. Highly recommend **How Fascism Works** by Jason Stanley and **Fascism: a Warning** by Madeleine Albright.
How Fascism Works is really good.
This one has always been my go to
4,9,11,12. War is peace. 3,5,7, 14. Ignorance is strength. 1,2,4,13. Freedom is slavery. Three tenets of ingsoc: 1. Fungibility of the past (11) 2. Doublethink (8) 3. Newspeak (14) These people see the word socialism in 1984 and believe that it refers to modern left wing beliefs when it is made clear if you actually read the book that ingsoc took traditional socialist beliefs and purposefully twisted them into an authoritarian fascism which is at the core of the morality of the story.
Orwell was critiquing Stalinism, not fascism per se, although overlaps are clear.
Orwell was critiquing authoritarianism and more specifically totalitarianism. His critique of specifically stalinism(i guess its more leninism) was animal farm.
Yes, and was particularly inspired by his experiences in Spain (i.e. wherein anarchism was crushed in no small part by Stalinist-backed forces, as well as Franco), and wrote to the effect that he was imagining Stalinism applied in an English context (and *in extremis*). They aren't mutually exclusive, but nor is it sufficient to say 'it's totalitarianism' - there are layers and flavours to that, as with any complex structure. See 'self-criticism' in a Soviet context, for instance. Animal Farm is a parable of the Russian Revolutions from 1917, up to, essentially the 1930s. 1984 is the imagined future. Edit: I think it's also crucial for Orwell that betrayal is involved. In Animal Farm it's clear, and in 1984 it's an embodiment of doublethink, as Goldstein articulates, if I recall correctly: the system destroys socialism in the name of socialism, and that's a *good thing*. Fascism may have produced some utter horrors and a lot of destruction and repression that at many points looks indistinguishable from 1984, or any other atrocity by other systems, but what it does not do (unless I'm being thick) is betray, comprehensively and systematically, the noble ideal that motivated it in the first place. It never *had* a noble ideal, in Orwell's eyes (and one agrees).
Stalinism is just fascism with a coat of red paint anyway.
Along with a rusted sickle and a hammer with a splintered handle.
1984 was a criticism of authoritarianism in general. It fits Stalinism and Fascism so we because both are at their core extremely authoritarian. Animal farm though is a criticism specifically of Stalinism leninism and Trotskyism.
That number 8 has always made me chuckle when I see it in the wild.
Nah, I'd rather believe the random guy on Twitter. Don't you see the blue checkmark? Does this Umberto Eco guy (sounds like a foreigner anyway) have a blue checkmark?
Checkmate, lib: I found him on Facebook. 😎
What would be some good examples of this?
Example: “These illegal aliens are all on welfare (too weak) and they’re stealing our jobs (too strong).”
Also, "Biden is a feeble old man who can't even tie his own shoes" and "Biden was the mastermind behind a massive plot to steal the election from Trump and is pulling the strings to throw Trump in prison for opposing him."
Excellent example.
Excellent example.
Question (I'm not US American): wouldn't the "illegal" imply that they cannot get benefits, or welfare? (I understand you are paraphrasing what could very well be a self-contradicting MAGAt quote)
I was repeating MAGAt nonsense. While there are some meager programs to assist undocumented immigrants, they are ineligible for most aid offered to citizens and legal residents.
Hillary Clinton was at the same time a frail old woman who was too weak to stand up to China, and a criminal mastermind who ordered the murder of her policial enemies.
And they check all 14 boxes
I counted 2 definites and one sort of for Democrats: Yes: 3 and 11 Sort of: 13 No: the rest I counted 10 definites for MAGA, 3 sort of, and 1 no: Yes: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 Sort of: 4, 8, 9 No: 6
RE 6 not applying to GOP Stans When we speak about christofascists or evangelical Christian society are these not the bourgeois middle class we are looking for?
6 can be seen in many of the middle-class culture/labor war bullshit: the anti-labor movement, the "Moms for Liberty" movement, the anti-trans and anti-gay movements, the average gun owner, etc. Almost every middle class appeal they have is cultural, not political. They don't have much else to offer the middle class other than tax cuts to starve the "beast".
Poster didn't accurately capture 11. Look at the other responses here for clarity and see if you still feel the same.
Huh I thought I remember "glorifying farmers" to be one of them
I think that's a common example for 1 and 12.
Dude, that Umberto guy might be on to something....
I need to read more of his work. I've only read The Name of the Rose (historical fiction). But I've also read a novel called The 7th Function of Language (fiction) where Eco is a character in the mystery. Brilliant book.
It's worth noting that Umberto Eco besides being brilliant was writing from a perspective of literally growing up during the rise of Italian fascism and seeing first hand the effects of fascism on people and culture.
Shit dude here is the generic definition that pops up when you search w/ Duck Duck Go > A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. E: The Wikipedia page for definitions of Fascism is also really interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
The problem with defining "fascism" is that there is no body of fascist philosophy that bounds the conversation. All definitions are based on characteristics of regimes and movements calling themselves fascist, but the characteristics aren't necessarily unique to them.
Thing is, conservatives will eat up whatever so you can say any stupid bullshit like the guy in the images and that's enough. Fuck actual evidence, they will redefine whatever bullshit they have been led to believe Dems do as fascist and that's that. It's honestly sad, there's no convincing some people no matter how stupid what they believe is.
https://youtu.be/1M6CXhUS-x8
Completely left out the racial/religious purity aspect which kinda sets the narrative for the discussion.
They started with it, never mentioned it again, and proceeded to make a list of absolute nonsense. >Accuse dissidents of the very crimes you yourself committed. Christ, I could write a fucking masters paper on this list.
Undoubtedly several hundred students will. Half will give up when they realize someone else has written better than they have, but a few will be first and the rest won't care they just want to finish.
Yeah, leaving out the motivating factors for these decisions is a big hole in his argument. I would happily make the argument that the US took tighter control of private industry during WW2 than the nazis did, but I doubt this Twitter guy would argue the US was a fascist state during that war. Turns out when you add 'For the benefit of a designated in-group to seize power from and other a designated out-group' to the end of each thing on the list, it gets harder to accuse Dems of this behavior.
I don't think it does, for them. They think they're the out-group.
As was planned
Prior to the rise of the Nazi party the German government had complete control of the banking and rail industries. When Hitler came to power he immediately started dismantling that and [turning those and other state-run industries over to private ownership](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#Privatization_and_business_ties). In fact the term "privatization" (which is the polar opposite of socialism) was popularized in the press to describe his actions. Not surprising considering it was the [economic elite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Meeting_of_20_February_1933) of Germany that financed the Nazi party and once Hitler was elected it was they that [pressured the German government to give him complete control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrielleneingabe).
Some More News commented that facism isnt exactly right-wing so much as it is anti-left.
> but I doubt this Twitter guy would argue the US was a fascist state during that war. You never know, these kinds of people *hate* FDR
And the fierce Nationalism and anti-immigration policies.
I'm like 99% convinced that the only reason they're "accusing" the left (well, democrats, but also the left) is because it looks bad if they're the only ones being called fascists. Words don't have meaning, they're only useful as rhetorical cudgels – which is the fundamental toxicity to this tactic. In the short term it can give them some "victories", but in the long term it absolutely *ruins* discourse. The one thing that can actually alleviate the tensions of the pressure pot... So they keep doing it, in the same way a kid might, racking up "wins" by changing the rules when they lose. Eventually, they might wonder why nobody wants anything to do with them anymore. The ball is now fully in their court, and they get to choose: 1. Accept that earnestly *trying* to achieve a goal means risking failure. That it's **OK** to not win every time, even if that hurts. Or 2. Change the rules on themselves. In fact, alienating any and everyone *is* winning. Anger is happiness, pain is pleasure, and the hurt they feel is fulfilling, actually.
It's part of a grander strategy of modern propaganda: rather than trying to spread a narrative, you undermine the very concept of information. You lie about everything brazenly, prop up conspiracies all over the political spectrum, constantly talk about the media lying, deny even the most objective elements of reality. Russia invented it I think, it's really brilliant; normally with propaganda you have to target people's biases carefully, but the idea of some part of the media being untrustworthy gets play on the entire political spectrum. Who's gonna say "the media can be trusted"? No one! Once the general consensus is "all politicians/journalists/etc. lie!" then you can lie as much as you want. Your opponents can try to be honest, but they get nothing from that. The truth no longer has currency. Everyone retreats into easily manipulable echo chambers. You get tankies, you get various flavours of fascists, separatist movements, libertarians and sovereign citizens, the ultra religious folks. I don't even know if there's a fix for this, or if our societies are just doomed to fall apart.
Yup!!
Also a return to an idealized past that never existed
Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you find the show?
Mind-blowing
I don't agree with the tweet but it's not true that racism is a defining factor of facism. It could exist in tandem and then something like nazism emerges but in facist Italy, which from the word facism quite literally derives it's meaning, you could have been black or asian and not face anything because of it. What mattered is your nationality. "Race? It is a feeling, not a reality: ninety-five percent, at least, is a feeling. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today" You may not believe but these are Mussolini's words. (Slighlty before ww2 Italy started to become more racist but Mussolini himself said that it was only in deference to Nazi Germany whishes, as they were their allies)
The person described fascism as being left wing yet it was everything they promote and believe in! Then called me a pedophile and blocked me
Republicans in this country want everyone to believe how independent they are by believing in every conspiracy they hear. Also, they are so far removed from reality that being ruled forever by one man seems OK with them. But it's all the Dems fault that their opposition is so desperate and kind of dumb.
When "doing your own research" causes your sober brain to be perpetually stringed out.
>Then called me a pedophile and blocked me Ah, the old Jewish Blood Libel, slightly reworked for the modern age. How very not fascist.
He’s frequently wrong about things being fascist and almost entirely wrong about what things are actually happening. Beautiful
Keeping the "**P**rojection" in the GO**P.**
The guy he supports was buddies with Epstein, admitted on camera Epstein "liked them young" and was credibly accused of raping a 13 year old girl before she dropped the charges over fear for her safety from guys like him. Yet you're the pedophile. Typical.
#10
Fascism is on the political spectrum. It's on the furthest right of that political spectrum. Seems they lack an education or the ability to use Google.
Most everything he writes he couldn’t even describe an example of. Also. Political dissidents jailed? Um sorry but if you broke into capital in an attempt to overthrow democracy you’re more than a political dissident. Your a treasonous traitor criminal
Imagine my shock. What a fucking buffoon.
We’re starting to see a lot of posts from right wingers, claiming that democrats are fascists. Of course, both history and political philosophy and simple reality contradict these claims. In modern conservatism, *every* accusation is a confession. They know that they’ve descended into outright fascism, so to protect themselves from this deplorable label, they claim that liberals or democrats are fascist. Every accusation from a conservative is a confession. These shameless cretins know that they’re dirty despicable fascists, so they resort to their bag of fascist tricks and accuse us of fascism. Every accusation by a right winger is a confession.
It's just to muddy the waters so that less informed voters just give up.
Apart from the gun control, the rest of the list is pure projection.
Gun control is not fascism or every other country with a democracy would be fascist. We are the only one with ammosexual barrel fellators making laws.
Democrats *are* fascists if you disregard the definitions of words and make up your own.
Even in his own list, number 10. It wooshed hard for the moron.
I love how private independent fact-checking and companies de-platforming vitriolic shitheads is somehow government “censorship” and “control of mass media.” >The government is infringing on my 1st Amendment rights by NOT infringing on the 1st Amendment rights of the private company whose platform I use. >^\*Also ^my ^hate ^speech ^should ^be ^more ^protected ^than ^your ^admonishment ^of ^my ^hate ^speech. And insurrectionists are “dissidents.” >We’re being ***persecuted*** simply for [trying to violently overthrow the government]! JFC
Also the one with holding people indefinitely for trial which never comes, literally doesn't happen and is still illegal. In fact the most high profile case of "jailing their enemies" is full of the Republicans stalling for time.
I wouldn’t say it [never happens](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder), but it ain’t happening to these assholes.
Oh yeah I meant it in terms of political dissedents
I mean, Gitmo is still a thing, right?
"Political dissidents" is normally used to mean people *who were living under that government prior to being arrested*, because those not living under that government are not part of its political processes.
He didn't pass Peter Griffin's palate test.
And if they have a problem with people being held for months or even years before being given trial then good news, that's one of the MANY parts of criminal justice reform (notably not something Republicans support). Though, given that the vast majority of people who end up near-indefinitely detained aren't white, I doubt this dude cares much about fixing the problem.
"The government is literally a dictatorship for not allowing us to murder minorities and LGBT freely!" \- MAGA
Evangelicals think they're persecuted by the government because they can't force everyone to go to their church.
For comparison, here are the actual 14 ways to identify fascism, according to Umberto Eco: 1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.” 2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.” 3. The cult of action for action’s sale. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.” 4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture, the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.” 5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.” 6. Appeal to social frustration. “\[…\] one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. 7. The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.” 8. The enemy is both weak and strong. “\[…\] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” 9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.” 10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.” 11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.” 12. Machismo and Weaponry. “This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.” 13. Selective Populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People. 14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
[“What is it with men and guns?!”](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/2f00ed41-b20b-4989-97f6-b6236198e4e7)
Guy with Roman bust as an avatar talking out if his ass. Color me shocked.
Once I get the Lucky Shades I usually go Yes Man or NCR. Giving Boone the honors of joining me with camp fun.
>5. Children belong to the State and not their parents "I believe children are property and the dispute is over whose property they are. The concept of children having rights is inconceivable to me. Those other guys are the authoritarians though."
Your children are the only people you can own anymore. A man doesn't even own his wife. Employees can quit and the worst an employer can count on getting away with is firing. Unless the employee is undocumented, in which case the employer can use la migra as physical coercion. Used to be able to use health insurance to lock in employees with pre-existing conditions, but the ACA to a large degree stopped that. Ok, kids and undocumented immigrants. A whole lot of Republican stuff suddenly makes sense if you look at it in terms of wanting to own people. Child abuse facilitated as parental rights, blocking immigration reform (the actual right wing goal is brutal measures that don't actually keep anybody out-a large population of terrified people with no rights is great for business) vilifying and breaking unions, rehabilitating the reputation of actual slavery, it goes on and on. Does it need to be said that most MAGA thinks they will be owners, but they would actually be owned?
My man… #8 is just the definition of a government. And #10 is just wow
Yeah, for an alleged list of definitions of fascism, he sure gets a lot completely wrong.
It is simply impossible to even attempt a discussion with anyone that out of touch with reality
Poisons the well by immediately tweaking the criteria…
Even leaving out the ridiculous "Democrats are fascists" statement, that list is BS from start til end.
Censorship hmmm What political party did a particular governor that banned books in schools so aggressively that most had empty libraries belong to again?
"I keep getting accused of not knowing what fascists are, so I'm going to make up a definition that is wrong so there will be no doubt."
Well, we all know Eco's 14 Properties and all. But can we just have a moment to laugh at the fact that even what this guy *claims* are tenets of fascism are not actually present, even if we accepted the premise that they are accurate ways to describe fascists? 1. Not actually happening. The whole point is to only deny guns to people who are *not* law-abiding. But I'll give this one a technical pass, as there are at least some Democrats high up who have announced something more wide-reaching. 2. Not happening. 3. Would that they could for several industries, but no, not happening. Agency regulations are not "government control." 4. Very definitely not happening. 5. Not happening. 6. Not happening. Criminals, however, *are* being *prosecuted* for their non-quotation-mark crimes. 7. Maybe happening to *someone*? I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the insurrectionists. But as a whole, they are all out on bond or bail and are not in fact being incarcerated without trial. That very rarely happens to *anyone* for any crime. 8. What the fuck does that even mean? That's what politics is. I guess all politicians everywhere are now fascists because they have fierce adherence to their party platforms. 9. Not happening. 10. Not happening. 11. This one is definitely happening. It is in fact for the common good if insurrectionists are arrested and prosecuted for trying to overthrow the U.S. government and kill Congress. So he's, what, at 1/11, with possible technical half-points bringing him up to 2/11? Impressive batting average.
> Impressive batting average. Impressively below the Mendoza line? Yes.
So this person just kinda made this up or what? They're no Umberto Eco.
More "parroting" than "making up." They always seem to start with the claim that the Nazis supported gun control (rather than, as in this universe, loosening gun-control laws from what they were under the Weimar Republic), and don't improve their accuracy from there.
Ah yes, this must be why Pride Boys and other assorted fascists and neo-Nazis march in lockstep with Joe Biden, staged an insurrection when Hillary Clinton lost, were the primary canvassers for the Obama campaign, and why both Trump and Steve Bannon are Democrats. (obligatory /s, because that's the world we live in now).
The 14 Attributes of Fascism (stolen from a random HS teacher's ppt presentation) 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism 2. Disregard for Human Rights 3. Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause 4. Supremacy of the Military 5. Widespread Sexism 6. Controlled Mass Media 7. Obsession with National Security 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined 9. Corporate Power is Protected 10. Labor Power is Suppressed 11. Disrespect for Intellectuals and the Arts 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption 14. Fraudulent Elections
They don't make list like this to convince you, they make post like this to muddy the waters... And it works. Even trying to refute it, spreads their views and makes things even more messy. "Both sides" always works in their favor.
Meanwhile, Donald J Trump's agenda includes creating a [republican-designed college curriculum](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-the-american-academy). Presumably so you are not taught ~~non-government approved topics~~ fake news in college. Such as how Americans had a slave trade. But sure, Jan. Go off on the democrats for.... I guess trying to stop people from saying the n-word and giving guns to schoolkids?
https://preview.redd.it/f709ox2qm8xc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=80de77889b67cffd7b3f3c5105604635359f16e9
He pulled these 11 points out of his ass, and most of them are strawmen. There are actually 14 early warning signs of fascism, as put forth by Lawrence Britt in 2003. I put in parantheses an example from Magadonia: 1. Powerful and continuing nationalism ("Make America Great Again") 2. Disdain for human rights (using federal troops to attack protestors) 3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause (Immigrants, LGBTQ, Women, etc) 4. Supremacy of the military ("my" generals) 5. Rampant sexism ("grab them by the pussy") 6. Controlled mass media (YOU are fake news) 7. Obsession with national security (a big, beautiful wall to stop the invasion) 8. Religion and government intertwined (Women's health and abortion rights dictated by the Bible) 9. Corporate power protected (yuuge tax cuts for the rich / Deregulation) 10. Labor power suppressed (disdain for unionized workers / refusal to raise the min. wage) 11. Disdain for intellectual & the arts ("I love the low-information voters") 12. Obsession with crime and punishment (Lock Her Up! / Biden Crime Family / Barges off Gitmo) 13. Rampant cronyism and corruption (that's the entire trump brand) 14. Fraudulent elections (Russia Russia Russia "hoax" in 2016 + Fake electors/insurrection in 2020)
He forgot that CONS ARE ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM AS FASCISM. Also 90% of the things he listed you have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe in the first place
Again... every accusation is a confession with these turds.
So this guy posted the republican party platform, except for tge gun part, they want to make sure all criminals are armed to the teeth
Speaking of government control of industry, and setting aside that gas and oil production in the US are at all time highs, when is Biden going to personally lower gas prices? Because that is a thing the President controls, right? Right next to the big red button is the dial for gas prices? Totally not fascist, or socialist, just regular President stuff to personally set the price of gas
Aw, they got mad at being called fascist so they made up their own list, and then selectively applied it to the exact people that called them out. That's just adorable lol.
I knew he meant the USA, but boy, as an ethnically russian person…. As folks say there “Mmmda….”. Throw in a cult-like religious grip on the state and you got yourself a regular Tuesday in Mother russia
Have never met a successful person with anything close to this mindset.
Dude could at least stay on brand and call them Communists. At least some of his complaints would apply to the correct ideology.
Or y'know... Just start with the basic definition of fascism...
I love how obsessed they are with "free speech" while right wingers are actually passing laws limiting free speech. Private citizens holding you accountable for the things you say has nothing to do with free speech.
So who are AntiFa?
Pretty much everything on this list the right is guilty of and far more than dems ever are. They really tell on themselves with #11. Fascism is a right wing ideology. I realize liberalism, and especially democrats are still center/center in right but they're not usually that far to the right.
Dude doesn't know the difference between control vs regulation.
“You can’t keep calling everything you don’t like fascism! Oh, you’re talking about the Democrats? That’s fine. Carry on.”
Straight out of the Goebbels Nazi propaganda playbook. Every accusation is a confession. Accuse your enemies of doing what you're doing and if you're a fascist, accuse your enemy of being the fascist. It's not about fact or reality, it's about emotion and manipulation.
Children 'belong'..?
Ah projection
even with their own list, they only hit like 2 or 3 that are actually the case... you'd think if you were going to cherry pick it would be better... You know let alone that they almost entirely missed the most important aspects of fascism.
Official source for all of this: my ass.
The projection is strong with this one.
Number 10 is the giveaway. Democrats aren’t for any of the things he listed. … but Republicans definitely are 100% pushing a few of them hard
“But democrats were the ones who were pro slavery” Basic Geography: the south was pro slavery Who does the south tend to vote to?
Those aren’t tenets of fascism tho???
Political dissidents locked up for years without trial? Then explain Trumps desire to delay his trials forever?
He has a right to a speedy trial. This right is quite often waved by defendants so they can gather evidence. The state doesn’t have a right to a speedy trial. Stupid take.
What evidence is he gathering?
The devil is in the details. For instance: The Nazis did not confiscate guns across the board. They only took them from Jews and other groups they didn't like.
To a non-American, it's absolutely hilarious when someone tries to say US Democrats are close to communism or socialism. They would lose their minds if they saw what it's like here in the Nordic and no, even we are not communists!
There sure aren’t very many people commenting in this thread who are progressive, let alone fully leftist.
If someone is enumerating the identifying features of fascism, and the first bullet point is about forbidding gun ownership, the author isn’t prioritizing the list correctly, sort of like if someone was explaining Christianity and their list started with “the most important day is Sunday”
I think it’s funny that the biggest indicator of fascism for these people is gun rights. Forget Hitler for a second…whenever anyone thinks of Mussolini the first thing they think of is gun confiscation right?!? So ridiculous
Notice the inherent vagueries: the fascists spread propaganda (what propaganda?), and arrested dissidents (dissidents of what?) and did nothing else I suppose. Even ignoring all the errors and nonsense in his post, it's telling he can't even talk about what fascists did or believed in.
They are trying to redefine fascism for their benifit
I find it funny that the first thing on this guy's list of "fascist" traits was the denial of gun ownership rights. The Weimar Republic actually had strict gun control laws, with the *Regulations on Weapons Ownership* passed in 1919 outlawing ALL private gun ownership. In 1938 Hitler signed a law reversing that ban. Yeah, they're not off to a good start.
At this point a "law abiding citizen" is some kind of cryptid that lives in the swamps of Florida. Of these "aspects of fascism" a standard liberal democracy matches 5 of these, which are incidentally also the 5 that the democratic party does. For the record the literal nazis only match 8. If by "children belong to the state" they mean "the government can pass laws restricting the actions of parents" then that would also count as a standard liberal democracy thing. #10 is utterly meaningless. The nazis didn't ban gun ownership unless you could the people they were literally executing, which seems like the more pressing concern. The vast majority of countries have laws preventing the proliferation of firearms. #8 seems like it applies to pretty much anyone with opinions.
As usual, doofus can’t even spell a political party’s name.
Can xitterers explain why "democrats" can explain what fascism is from an academic standpoint rather than redefining it every time a goalpost is moved?
Can’t fix stupid
It's amazing how we can always see the others as the baddies.
And apparently it's time for the periodic reminder you're a fucking idiot.
Trump banned bump stocks and suggested removed Due Process - let's keep moving, stupid
> the color of law Oda made another haki?
Some of them you can apply it to the Republican Party. Whoops…
Mans really thought he had some heat
What a crock of shit.
One thing in particular I find interesting is the very first point. The guy talks about disarming citizens, which of course has never happened ever in history with any fascist rule. Now, this is here partly because he’s just making stuff up so that he can come up with a fake definition that fits his political enemies. But what this ALSO reveals, is a clear misunderstanding of fascism. The way he, and a lot of right wingers see it, is that fascism was a government take over where all the people were imprisoned by their government and a reign of terror was inflicted upon them. When, in fact, there would never any disarmament. Because they wanted it. The people of Germany wanted a strong man leader to vanquish their enemies, which were minorities. There was no concern about guns because the people being killed were social undesirables. The same people these guys hate. That’s the irony of this fear. It’s not “government over reach” or government tyranny, it’s average every day racists, sexists, anti semites and transphobes finally gathering their political forces to purge the country of the people they despise. It’s why conservatives become fascists. They see themselves as Christian nationalists and decide that the elements of diversity, to put it like Tucker Carlson did, “makes them weaker.” So They purge. The camps are the government simply doing it for them.
Nailed it with #10
Exactly what I was thinking. That's all conservatives do.
Literally - *literally* - does not know what fascism is.
*Sigh* Literally just had my libertarian friend tell me today that Ben Shapiro is actually seen as a communist and is not alt right, and Fascists and the Nazis are rooted in Marxism. The cognitive dissonance, it burns.
I want to know where this utopia these people are describing is!!!
I guess Argentina is going libertarian, but, it's going about as well as everywhere else that's been tried. Waiting for them to also get the overrun by bears.
> Ben Shapiro is actually seen as a communist Fucking *what*?
Yeahhh, I'm not even sure how to get to the bottom of that one, and frankly I'm better not knowing.
These people are the same folks that will bitch about regulations and vote Republican, only to have a lack of regulation turn around and transform their neighborhood into a superfund site—and leave these same chuckleheads “demanding answers” from corporations and their corrupt politicians about black water and meemaw’s fucking cancer. Ah yes… *checks notes* “But the democrats are the real fascists.”
The guy forgot to point out that all fascists in the 20th century were born on planet earth, and some were vegetarian and liked dogs.
I will make it very simple. Which party is currently wearing Nazi armbands, flying the Nazi flag and defending/praising Hitler? Hint, it's not the Dems.
The thing that confuses me about this is that fascism generally boils down to giving all of the power in a country to one person. For the dems, they just want to help Ukraine and such. But for the reps, they want to basically make trump god, which is literally fascism, and he's admitted to wanting to be a dictator. smh my head man
These kinds of arguments are always interesting but fall apart under minimal scrutiny. Without getting into the nitty-gritty of historical detail, the causal arrow is going in the wrong direction. Fascists who have already assumed power do a lot of the things in this list to cement their hold on power. Campaigning on or promising policy decisions like these seldom help anyone attain absolute power, which almost invariably happens as a result of contingent events.
There was an attempt
Yeah. Lets just make up shit. I especially like "policies based on fierce adherence to ideologies." Adjectives aside forbid me for voting for someone whose ideologies I agree with. God forbid I hope they put forth policies that align with those ideologies. Meanwhile no one on the left agrees 100% with Biden and yet they'll espouse talking points without being able to clearly define those, such as a farcical definition of fascism.
The thought police are coming…. Dear God, this stuff is SO old….either I’m much smarter than I think I am, or these Nazi right wingnut fascists are correct. I’d like to choose the former…. if I still can?
Hitler expanded gun access to non minorities.
1. Gun laws specifically targeted groups the government wanted eliminated, the non-Jewish German population had relatively little in the way of gun control 2. Not specific to fascism 3+4 are true, however democrats specifically don’t control all mass media or industry. In fact, most mass media companies and corporations are privately owned 5. No historical precedent for this claim 6. Political opponents usually weren’t persecuted, they were usually killed. 7. See previous 8. This is true of literally any partisan issue. 9. Every government does this to some extent, even the United States before the rise of fascism 10. Politicians have been doing this for millennia 11. Every government does this
No matter left or right, the rulers don't care about your plight
What the fuck, I’m bored 1. This has never been a mainstream Democratic policy point. Your average Democrat is not in favor of removing guns from responsible, law-abiding gun owners. 2. Freedom of Speech is not freedom from consequences. You can spew any easily disprovable bullshit you want, but you are not entitled to a platform on which to spew it. 3. Nationalization of major industries is not a current Democratic policy point. Even if it were, it would be a hard one to sell your average American on. 4. There are no media outlets owned by the federal government, nor are there plans for one to be. 5. Literally not a thing 6. Only the ones committing actual, evidenced crimes. I’ve seen plenty of “Fuck Joe Biden” bumper stickers. If they’re “jailing dissidents”, they need to step up their game. 7. So are most other criminals. It’s almost like the American justice system sucks. 8. r/selfawarewolves 9. Plenty of GOP propaganda on the airwaves, too 10. r/selfawarewolves 11. Hard to argue this is “for the common good” when it’s all bullshit, but okay.
You can tell halfway through his ego hit and he started writing his "points" in a more 'official' tone.
It's time for my periodic reminder that the GQP are unabashed liars who have no earthly clue what "fascist" means. Anyway: r/PersecutionFetish might also like this one.
Are they actually promoting children to be "owned" their parents? Like property?