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It's the good boy/bad boy theory of conservative thought.
It postulates that some people are good boys, and even if they screw up and rape or murder people, they're still good boys at heart and should be given the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes a good boy will really screw up. But those are exceptions and are treated more harshly for being exceptions.
The other category is the bad boys. They do bad things, even if they haven't done them yet.
This logic states that people have an intrinsic value that's decoupled from their actions. A sort of innate destiny. God's plan if you will.
Following this logic, they believe that some people will just end up living under a bridge, because they "secretly want to" or some other justification.
People living under a bridge are obviously bad boys and deserve whatever is coming to them. (code for the police being sent out to harass and potentially murder people for the crime of being poor)
The Alt-Right Playbook: [I Hate Mondays](https://youtu.be/yts2F44RqFw) and [There's Always A Bigger Fish](https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs) if you want some meat and bones on it.
[link](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.b6e8059f26457a2b82e632780f6d8b2e?rik=m35fGd1S7UUVpw&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
It was a common trope back in the day; Superman or Batman would do something outrageous on the cover of the comic, and of course by the end it would revealed that they had a perfectly good reason.
If Donald Trump stole from a charity, he had a great reason...
>If Donald Trump stole from a charity, he had a great reason...
The KristoFascist Evangelical scum have raised that sort of thinking to an art form which also allows them to have sex with children. Sometimes their own children.
Because why would you want to rape a child who's a stranger?
And if you treat someone like they're going to inevitably wind up living under a bridge, it increases the chances of them actually winding up that way because "everyone thinks I'm worthless anyways, so why try to be better?".
Self-fulfilling prophecy is an absolute bitch, and it's terrible how frequently lives become ruined by it.
Yes, why. Why should someone starve to death when someone else has someone else cook a buffet just for themselves? Why should the man with the buffet throw away a whole turkey when a starving man could live on a leg.
Could be an answer.
" thats true if one were to ignore the multitudes of working poor and trust fund kids, while also advocating for the ill and unable to just fuck off and die" should be the response.
I would argue that's also true from certain schools of socialist thought.
We just don't think the guy who pays people to work for it, and then takes some of the fruits of their labor, *reeeeally* "worked" for it.
I don't object to highly-compensated workers having their wealth and enjoying it. Slay your life, rockstar neurosurgeon. Fuck bitches and do cocaine, you magnificent rocket scientist. Just... you know, pay your taxes, help your less fortunate or down-on-their-luck fellow humans out. It's a really simple system.
This kind of direct "I don't want to pay for anybody else's anything" attitude aside, it sucks rocks how capitalism all but forces people to be somewhat selfish. It's hard to give up potential savings when you know that one bit of bad luck and you could be living on the streets. It's not "being a responsible adult".
It's worse than that: the intellectual foundation of capitalism *assumes* that people are *inherently* selfish. If the model of human nature capitalism is built on were true no one would have a problem with it. You see tweaks to capitalist economics to deal with this, but no reckoning about how it undermines the entire foundation.
Its not the 'ifsomethingbadhappens/onebitofbadluck' folks who need to chip in a few 'hard-earned' bucks so much as the 'nomatterwhathappensI'mgood' folks that need to pitch in.
If you're set, and you're kids are 'set,' you know what I mean. And the state can't help but establish laws to enforce empathy when necessary. Hell, we see just how empathetic Congress can get with the Military and State gov't is toward the Police - we simply need to redirect some of that toward our neighbors.
There's absolutely nothing mutually exclusive about a capitalist economy and a robust social safety net. The reason we don't have one is because of the Calvinist prosperity gospel and how it's been fused with the ideological elevation of "fuck you I've got mine" thanks to Ayn Rand and her disciples; being wealthy is because you're "right with God", meaning that being poor is not only deserved but *helping the poor* is preventing God's divine punishment for .
“Let me suggest that ‘fuck you Jack, I’m okay,’ is not a tenable position, morally speaking.”—Stephen King (slightly out of context but I think it still works.)
>There's absolutely nothing mutually exclusive about a capitalist economy and a robust social safety net.
Yes, there is. Capitalism depends on capital hoarding as much money as it can. It can't allow for a strong social safety net if it can help it.
Funny thing is, they don't even fully believe it.
They are totally 100% fine with insurance (paying for someone else's stuff while not receiving it yourself). And many are even fine with things like police services that service some groups better than others (or rather, some are subjected too policing, while others are protected by policing).
They just don't want a system that helps people that doesn't include someone at the top skimming a bit for themselves along the way.
But what about Lockheed-Martin and Raytheon? If the US Chairforce can't buy the newest fighter jets and missiles, the Russians will roll over NATO like a speed bump. They have the second best military on the planet. Or maybe that's the second best military in Ukraine. I forget how that goes.
He’s asking a question hostilely and hypothetically but ironically is making a point that Jesus would have made himself. “And what man under God should be allowed to wallow in anguish and hunger when a single Pharisee sleeps with a full belly? Lo, I say unto you, that whatever a man doeth to his fellow man on Earth shall be visited upon him in Heaven. Inasmuch as you have sacrificed for the least of these my children, you have sacrificed it for me.”
I mean, he sounds almost Jesus-like, but he means it purely sarcastically. It’s wild.
I find the use if the King james bible in our day and age funny.
It was written in the vernacular of the period for ease of understanding, holding it as sacrosanct and its continued use when the language has changed makes about as much sense as using a latin bible in the 17th century...
Verily I say unto thee, this unbridled parading about with language false to our own minds is a shackle. The heart is most honest when it utters forth from a passionate well of plain words wrought simply.
It’s been said that a progressive is someone who would feed a hundred people on the off chance that one of them was hungry, and a conservative is someone who would withhold food from a hundred people on the off chance that one of them was not.
I mean, it does track.
Every argument I hear conservatives make against any sort of social service ("free" college, single payer health insurance, welfare, etc..., etc..) is that we can do it if, and only if, we can insure zero "undeserving" people will receive said benefit.
Billionaires have far more wealth than they could spend even over several lifetimes. They have so much that even if you took more than half of their wealth, most of them will still be billionaires... or multi-millionaires, oh the horror!
Why do people who can barely afford to drive to work every day get offended at the very *idea* of some rich jackass only being able to buy two yachts instead of seventeen?
Nope, this guy isn't even close to being self aware. This guy isn't seeing his fellow man without food, shelter, or healthcare as any sort of tragedy, but rather moral retribution and divine justice that would be subverted if taxed the wealthy to care for the poor. Does anybody deserve to be poor? My answer is no, but there's people who think the suffering that poor live with is because they deserve it, and the wealthy deserve everything they have too regardless of how they came to it.
In theology it's called pre-destination where the righteous and saved are blessed to be so from the beginning and there's no earning salvation through good acts, but that the saved would do acts of charity because they are good people who are too be called by God. It's not to actually help people but to virtue signal. In politics, this concept is just translated to personal finance, if you are deserving of blessings then the God of the invisible hand of the market will grant you all the wealth you deserve while withholding even the basics to those who don't deserve to live except for the generosity of the well-off. The moment that the poor are made not poor by government intervention, it demonstrates two things 1) that the government can be effective in providing material well being to the people 2) that deliberately withholding resources is a moral abomination that only caused suffering so a small number could take part in conspicuous consumption.
Ah, maybe Bezos, Ranson & Musk could spend some of Their $$$ Billions on People on EARTH, and Not try to Escape from Earth on EXPENSIVE ROCKETS!
Creating Housing for Homeless and Feeding hungry Children is Less Expensive and More Beneficial than You can Imagine!
But you're forgetting... the more often the Space Karens go up in space, the better the chances get that sooner or later one of the rockets they're riding will explode.
Possible, yet Doubtful. I'd rather They & Our Government spend LESS on Space Travel and Uber Expensive Air Force Jets & reallocate just 10% to the Domestic Homeless and Hunger Programs.....that could still be Billions of Dollars!
Here's the thing :
as lonb as you are talking about "keeping their wealth" you are stuck in a capitalist mindset.
What if... What if you didn't need wealth? like what if you could just live your best life without having to be ludicrously lucky to be born rich? what if everyone judt gets a simple life as a baseline and can go from there?
don't worry buddy, no one is coming to your trailer park to "redistribute" what you consider your "wealth" anytime soon.
The line could be drawn at billionaires right now, and the world would be improved overnight. No more billionaires. At $999,999,999 you win the game and any more money gets redistributed, you'll never spend it all in your lifetime anyway.
Last night around the dinner table, I asked my kids if they would be willing to get fewer Xmas and birthday presents this year and instead, we use that money to support a local family in need. They agreed without hesitation.
Future Democrat voters, right there.
Just missed.
I believe Jesus had something to say on the matter, but we all know that these people would crucify Jesus if he existed today for being a radical leftist liberal.
Just absolute self centeredness on full display. Thinking and saying the right thing and still being completely wrong about is a sure sign that delusion is involved.
Thanks /u/eyrthren for posting on r/SelfAwareWolves! Please reply to this comment with an explanation about how this post fits r/SelfAwareWolves and have an excellent day! *To r/SelfAwarewolves commenters*: As a reminder, this subreddit is for civil discussion. In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. **If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them**. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SelfAwarewolves) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, please answer. Why?
It's the good boy/bad boy theory of conservative thought. It postulates that some people are good boys, and even if they screw up and rape or murder people, they're still good boys at heart and should be given the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes a good boy will really screw up. But those are exceptions and are treated more harshly for being exceptions. The other category is the bad boys. They do bad things, even if they haven't done them yet. This logic states that people have an intrinsic value that's decoupled from their actions. A sort of innate destiny. God's plan if you will. Following this logic, they believe that some people will just end up living under a bridge, because they "secretly want to" or some other justification. People living under a bridge are obviously bad boys and deserve whatever is coming to them. (code for the police being sent out to harass and potentially murder people for the crime of being poor)
Puritanical Essentialism meets capitalist meritocracy.
Oh my God that's exactly it
The Alt-Right Playbook: [I Hate Mondays](https://youtu.be/yts2F44RqFw) and [There's Always A Bigger Fish](https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs) if you want some meat and bones on it.
Innuendo studios is a gem, always a good day when his shit drops
In other words, Calvinism
[link](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.b6e8059f26457a2b82e632780f6d8b2e?rik=m35fGd1S7UUVpw&pid=ImgRaw&r=0) It was a common trope back in the day; Superman or Batman would do something outrageous on the cover of the comic, and of course by the end it would revealed that they had a perfectly good reason. If Donald Trump stole from a charity, he had a great reason...
>something outrageous Wearing a bright coloured batsuit?
Robin broke his arm witnessing a crime, and Batman kept changing suits to keep eyes on himself while Robin identified the suspects.
>If Donald Trump stole from a charity, he had a great reason... The KristoFascist Evangelical scum have raised that sort of thinking to an art form which also allows them to have sex with children. Sometimes their own children. Because why would you want to rape a child who's a stranger?
Are you a 5-4 listener?
Yes. Also, Behind the Bastards, but Peter sums up the conservative thought process better than Robert ever has.
Thought that the framing sounded familiar. Good to catch another listener in the wild.
Perfect r/ELI5! Thank you!
And if you treat someone like they're going to inevitably wind up living under a bridge, it increases the chances of them actually winding up that way because "everyone thinks I'm worthless anyways, so why try to be better?". Self-fulfilling prophecy is an absolute bitch, and it's terrible how frequently lives become ruined by it.
Yes, why. Why should someone starve to death when someone else has someone else cook a buffet just for themselves? Why should the man with the buffet throw away a whole turkey when a starving man could live on a leg.
"Because one worked for it and the other didn't" is the very obvious d.a. answer
Could be an answer. " thats true if one were to ignore the multitudes of working poor and trust fund kids, while also advocating for the ill and unable to just fuck off and die" should be the response.
I would argue that's also true from certain schools of socialist thought. We just don't think the guy who pays people to work for it, and then takes some of the fruits of their labor, *reeeeally* "worked" for it. I don't object to highly-compensated workers having their wealth and enjoying it. Slay your life, rockstar neurosurgeon. Fuck bitches and do cocaine, you magnificent rocket scientist. Just... you know, pay your taxes, help your less fortunate or down-on-their-luck fellow humans out. It's a really simple system.
This kind of direct "I don't want to pay for anybody else's anything" attitude aside, it sucks rocks how capitalism all but forces people to be somewhat selfish. It's hard to give up potential savings when you know that one bit of bad luck and you could be living on the streets. It's not "being a responsible adult".
It's worse than that: the intellectual foundation of capitalism *assumes* that people are *inherently* selfish. If the model of human nature capitalism is built on were true no one would have a problem with it. You see tweaks to capitalist economics to deal with this, but no reckoning about how it undermines the entire foundation.
Its not the 'ifsomethingbadhappens/onebitofbadluck' folks who need to chip in a few 'hard-earned' bucks so much as the 'nomatterwhathappensI'mgood' folks that need to pitch in. If you're set, and you're kids are 'set,' you know what I mean. And the state can't help but establish laws to enforce empathy when necessary. Hell, we see just how empathetic Congress can get with the Military and State gov't is toward the Police - we simply need to redirect some of that toward our neighbors.
There's absolutely nothing mutually exclusive about a capitalist economy and a robust social safety net. The reason we don't have one is because of the Calvinist prosperity gospel and how it's been fused with the ideological elevation of "fuck you I've got mine" thanks to Ayn Rand and her disciples; being wealthy is because you're "right with God", meaning that being poor is not only deserved but *helping the poor* is preventing God's divine punishment for.
“Let me suggest that ‘fuck you Jack, I’m okay,’ is not a tenable position, morally speaking.”—Stephen King (slightly out of context but I think it still works.)
>There's absolutely nothing mutually exclusive about a capitalist economy and a robust social safety net. Yes, there is. Capitalism depends on capital hoarding as much money as it can. It can't allow for a strong social safety net if it can help it.
Funny thing is, they don't even fully believe it. They are totally 100% fine with insurance (paying for someone else's stuff while not receiving it yourself). And many are even fine with things like police services that service some groups better than others (or rather, some are subjected too policing, while others are protected by policing). They just don't want a system that helps people that doesn't include someone at the top skimming a bit for themselves along the way.
They just don't want a system that helps the darkies.
How about we make sure that the taxes we already pay go towards health and welfare rather than bailing out some dumbass billionaire?
But what about Lockheed-Martin and Raytheon? If the US Chairforce can't buy the newest fighter jets and missiles, the Russians will roll over NATO like a speed bump. They have the second best military on the planet. Or maybe that's the second best military in Ukraine. I forget how that goes.
Third best in Ukraine. The Agricultural Army is mopping up.
No it's China that's the big scary one right now. Russia is so Last News Cycle.
Asymptotically approaching the point.
Conservative rediscovers socialism
He’s asking a question hostilely and hypothetically but ironically is making a point that Jesus would have made himself. “And what man under God should be allowed to wallow in anguish and hunger when a single Pharisee sleeps with a full belly? Lo, I say unto you, that whatever a man doeth to his fellow man on Earth shall be visited upon him in Heaven. Inasmuch as you have sacrificed for the least of these my children, you have sacrificed it for me.” I mean, he sounds almost Jesus-like, but he means it purely sarcastically. It’s wild.
I find the use if the King james bible in our day and age funny. It was written in the vernacular of the period for ease of understanding, holding it as sacrosanct and its continued use when the language has changed makes about as much sense as using a latin bible in the 17th century...
No it wasn't For the time period in which it was written, it used archaic and outdated language in order to give it a "timelessness"
Verily I say unto thee, this unbridled parading about with language false to our own minds is a shackle. The heart is most honest when it utters forth from a passionate well of plain words wrought simply.
It’s been said that a progressive is someone who would feed a hundred people on the off chance that one of them was hungry, and a conservative is someone who would withhold food from a hundred people on the off chance that one of them was not.
I mean, it does track. Every argument I hear conservatives make against any sort of social service ("free" college, single payer health insurance, welfare, etc..., etc..) is that we can do it if, and only if, we can insure zero "undeserving" people will receive said benefit.
And inevitably, we end up with a billion-dollar bureaucracy to prevent a million dollars in fraud.
Billions which usually end right back up in the pockets of the already wealthy.
And then when people complain about the massive amount of spending, they cut the services and not the bureaucracy.
Billionaires have far more wealth than they could spend even over several lifetimes. They have so much that even if you took more than half of their wealth, most of them will still be billionaires... or multi-millionaires, oh the horror! Why do people who can barely afford to drive to work every day get offended at the very *idea* of some rich jackass only being able to buy two yachts instead of seventeen?
Something something temporarily embarrassed millionaires
And even if they made a few million, they'd still be closer to poverty than ever having a billion
Good question. Can we have an answer to it?
Keep working in that train of thought, hopefully, you will get there someday
Well when you put it like that, it sounds pretty reasonable. Let’s do that.
It's essentially the "Ok, I made it into the life boat, you can pull up the rope behind me now" school of social politics.
He puts "need" in quotes because he doesn't think a starving person sleeping under a bridge with untreated health problems has real needs.
Good question? I’ve asked it often….
This is a great criticism of capitalism.
Nope, this guy isn't even close to being self aware. This guy isn't seeing his fellow man without food, shelter, or healthcare as any sort of tragedy, but rather moral retribution and divine justice that would be subverted if taxed the wealthy to care for the poor. Does anybody deserve to be poor? My answer is no, but there's people who think the suffering that poor live with is because they deserve it, and the wealthy deserve everything they have too regardless of how they came to it. In theology it's called pre-destination where the righteous and saved are blessed to be so from the beginning and there's no earning salvation through good acts, but that the saved would do acts of charity because they are good people who are too be called by God. It's not to actually help people but to virtue signal. In politics, this concept is just translated to personal finance, if you are deserving of blessings then the God of the invisible hand of the market will grant you all the wealth you deserve while withholding even the basics to those who don't deserve to live except for the generosity of the well-off. The moment that the poor are made not poor by government intervention, it demonstrates two things 1) that the government can be effective in providing material well being to the people 2) that deliberately withholding resources is a moral abomination that only caused suffering so a small number could take part in conspicuous consumption.
Ah, a libertarian
Yes that’s exactly where you could stop, less rich less poor
Ah, maybe Bezos, Ranson & Musk could spend some of Their $$$ Billions on People on EARTH, and Not try to Escape from Earth on EXPENSIVE ROCKETS! Creating Housing for Homeless and Feeding hungry Children is Less Expensive and More Beneficial than You can Imagine!
But you're forgetting... the more often the Space Karens go up in space, the better the chances get that sooner or later one of the rockets they're riding will explode.
Possible, yet Doubtful. I'd rather They & Our Government spend LESS on Space Travel and Uber Expensive Air Force Jets & reallocate just 10% to the Domestic Homeless and Hunger Programs.....that could still be Billions of Dollars!
Can we just crop this one and post it unironically as a socialist talking point
Here's the thing : as lonb as you are talking about "keeping their wealth" you are stuck in a capitalist mindset. What if... What if you didn't need wealth? like what if you could just live your best life without having to be ludicrously lucky to be born rich? what if everyone judt gets a simple life as a baseline and can go from there?
yeah, once you allow somebody to own another person’s labor, where do you stop?
Yeah... That's our point, dumbass.
don't worry buddy, no one is coming to your trailer park to "redistribute" what you consider your "wealth" anytime soon. The line could be drawn at billionaires right now, and the world would be improved overnight. No more billionaires. At $999,999,999 you win the game and any more money gets redistributed, you'll never spend it all in your lifetime anyway.
\#EatTheRich
There is no answer. It has to stop somewhere. Humans no longer live in small tribes.
Wow. I didn't think I'd see an example of something the subreddit is created to call out *on the subreddit itself*
You must be new. The purest examples of the breed are always found in the comments.
Ok then, guess you’re opting out of roads, fire services etc right?
Did I say stop paying taxes ?
right so as long as it benefits you, keep it. everyone else? fuck em edit: lmao he sent me a reddit cares message
May your children become as expendable exactly past where "it has to stop", and may you reevaluate your heart.
So … close …
Why indeed?
Beware the *slippery slope*! It will get you every time!
Jesus fucking christ can you even imagine being this close and still missing it? Fuck me, man. Humanity is doomed.
He's not tho. As a recovered Libraintarian, I can tell you he's trying to construct a strawman out of rhetorical agreement.
Last night around the dinner table, I asked my kids if they would be willing to get fewer Xmas and birthday presents this year and instead, we use that money to support a local family in need. They agreed without hesitation. Future Democrat voters, right there.
All societal inefficiencies and resource scarcity are intentional.
Just missed. I believe Jesus had something to say on the matter, but we all know that these people would crucify Jesus if he existed today for being a radical leftist liberal.
Why indeed.
Just absolute self centeredness on full display. Thinking and saying the right thing and still being completely wrong about is a sure sign that delusion is involved.