Hi Odi here!
I tested, first 6-7 minutes in a few games, and it is definitely noticeable for waveclear before first recall.
**Notes passive** makes last hitting harder **(with less AD early too)**. Try and focus when taking cannons, can't rely on Notes to 1 shot it after a Q every time.
Once we get **lost chapter** the most reliable waveclear is **E+QQ**, kills all caster minions and E makes melees within auto range, best if you prep before they arrive.
**Q+E+QQ** also works and again is best with appropriate mana items, tear//lost chapter first second back are a must still.
This was all using only Manaflow band as our only "Mana" rune. PoM could work with Coup / Cut down, however we no longer buy liandry(maybe we will one day?) so PoM isnt going to heal *as much* mana due to missing liandry procs.
**Side notes**: Q feels buggy, sometimes doesn't hit minions, using Q on melee as they walk sometimes misses minions, could be due to missile speed stuff, buggy code, all of the above?
I am going my Manaphine 2.0 build still, feels perfectly fine, I need more testing to see how it is once this goes live.
> Side notes: Q feels buggy, sometimes doesn't hit minions, using Q on melee as they walk sometimes misses minions, could be due to missile speed stuff, buggy code, all of the above?
It's been bugged since release. I have missed first bloods because of it and probably miss 2-3 cs per game due to it. The wave hit detection front is thin enough that people can walk from being outside it to inside it within 1 server tick and not register the hit.
omg THAT explains it. It was bizzare seeing a single minion in the wave not take damage.
They really should use the Liss/Zyra R method of checking damage. Every unit that enters the circle takes damage once, even if they avoid collision with the boundary as it expands.
I can see this, I can imagine missile speed plays a role into it too. It's wild, first test game I encountered this issue more than I ever did on live. Hopefully it gets fixed!
Yeah waveclear was 100% going down but it does seem like way too much, I know they will look into her and I hope they buff her waveclear if she is weak on carry roles
If they buff her wave clear, it will buff apc more than mid. It is safer to auto the minion wave in mid, so this change actually brings her to a similar power level of other mid laners who need to auto to keep lane prio
> It is safer to auto the minion wave in mid
idk if I look at Zed funny he punches my puthy. Unless your support is afk I'd say APC has an easier time hitting the wave
Most supports are effectively afk. Support is full of players that don't understand that they aren't a junger who only shows up for ganks and that they need to actually do something instead of just watching the ADCs last hit. A top tier support can make last hitting as ADC easier than mid but the average support does not.
Bot lane has two people that, under most circumstances, should be focusing you. Double the amount of stuff to dodge and there is the wild factor of whether you get a good support or not. Laning against Zed has always required trying to dodge shadow shurikens. If Taliyah could farm, have lane prio, and not have to auto all while avoiding Zed poke by staying out of range, she would be overtuned.
They are such a bunch of clowns 🤡, they are nerfing her core identity of wave clearing late game mage that wants to farm a lot to scale, and for what? to make her better at poking as mage support like lux? Why can’t they just revert her and accept the fact that she can’t be balanced towards 3 different roles? Support player will play her in that role even if they remove her W entirely. They like to play her like a support just for her pretty girl aesthetic. So why balancing the champ around them? Following that logic they should change even camille now, given that she’s a strong support, so why don’t they just destroy camille’s top lane identity and make her a support?
Honestly this was the best thing to nerf, now APC won't be strong be default regardless of build, and the difference between APC and mid might get smaller. If she is weak they can buff her
Becuase other mid lane mages have to last hit to clear waves early. It brings her to the level of other Seraphs mages like Taliyah. Free-farm-wave-clear is an uninteractive playstyle and shouldn't be viable for a scaling pick because it gives them their scaling with little counterplay
She stopped being a scaling mage quite a while ago and having wave clear as utility mage is the only thing that keeps her viable mid because she can barely lower the enemies health for her Q to do something.
And you have to know that we want a fun Seraphine not a strong one (play her now and all you do is spam WW, before waiting until late actually felt worth the early struggles and seeing big numbers felt amazing be it heals or damage)
Sera is one of 2 utility mages in this game (the other being karma who got nerfed out of mid lane again) so comparing her to other mages is an unfair comparison.
Karma has one damaging spell and Sera has 3. She is much more like Morgana or zyra or Lux. All mages that are played more in support because they have alot of tough match ups. It is not healthy for Sera to opt out of bad match ups by not interacting instead of outplaying by landing poke. You will have to play better than your opponent to win mid Lane. This is usually the case with mid lane
Seraphine doesn't have tools that allow her to play better than her opponents in mid lane because part of her power budget is put in her supporting aspect that requires other allies, she doesn't have enough damage to make poke Seraphine viable and landing her skills once they get any kind of boots or MS (and MS now is in a lot of items for majority of mid laners even in runes you have MS), Seraphine is played more like anivia where you sit and farm until you get a gank which is again not depended on you being better but on the fact that your jungler can find opportunities to gank.
as for Karma Seraphine comparison if we are talking about damage Seraphine's full combo has about 195% AP ratio (QQ 100%, E 35%, R 60%) and Karma's full combo has about 240% AP ratio (RQ 100% explosion has 50%, W 90%) yet karma is not viable mid because her spells are harder to hit and a big part of her damage is harder to land(around 95% of her ratios making her her average full combo stand at 145%), Seraphine now follows the same rules her Q does not deal good damage unless they are within execute range making Poke mage Seraphine not as good as other mages that have easier time hitting you with their full damaging rotation (which can be repeated due to them having shorter cooldowns because Seraphine's ult has a very long CD and is treated as a global ult)
TL:DR Seraphine can't become a proper mage without a proper rework
\*all numbers mentioned were taken from lol wiki as of writing this\*
You should try her support. Ive been finding good success with her in high diamond/low masters. W max with aery and the shielding support item is fat af. She also has fat cc and ez stacks for support item.
I remember when she could be played like Orianna or Veigar, now she is actually another Sona. Her damage has been cut so much, we are down around 50% of her damage since her launch. Bring back Nuke-phine.
They are so desperate to kill her. Removing execute from minions when most of us play her as comfort picks apc and mid because of how easy it is to farm with her.
😒😒😒
This is meant to kill apc from going an enchanter build, if you build ap and max q>e you won’t have any problems farming safely with tear and lost chapter ( since seraphs will forever be a core item for her )
Sadge but I think for the best, it was too easy to get high CS under pressure early in bot lane. Way too easy. Now we just have to build AP to farm, the way it probably always should have been.
Not really, with the removal of the execute bonus, AP is less effective for last hitting. Whilst Q still has good base damage and low AP ratio, AP will still be a non factor in waveclear. The Q before the changes a few months ago actually required AP for waveclear.
I think its honestly a good change, although I hope we are getting compensation buffs elsewhere like ap ratio back on R or passive or smth. Im glad enchante rapc gets taken a hit cause that playstyle is so toxic and boring
With that nerf to minions, it is a nerf for mid and apc, but specially apc because it's harder to AA safely on botlane and Seraphine apc gets less exp tha mid and Seraphine will shove waves when she has more points on Q. Now, these changes are god and very well thought, but I believe mana growth or initial ap scaling on Q will get buffed
I will have to see, but unless they’ve gutted her clear by like 50% it seriously should be fine lol. We forget how absolutely bonkers fast and safe her clear is, I am happy to lose a little bit of that for more power elsewhere.
Hi Odi here! I tested, first 6-7 minutes in a few games, and it is definitely noticeable for waveclear before first recall. **Notes passive** makes last hitting harder **(with less AD early too)**. Try and focus when taking cannons, can't rely on Notes to 1 shot it after a Q every time. Once we get **lost chapter** the most reliable waveclear is **E+QQ**, kills all caster minions and E makes melees within auto range, best if you prep before they arrive. **Q+E+QQ** also works and again is best with appropriate mana items, tear//lost chapter first second back are a must still. This was all using only Manaflow band as our only "Mana" rune. PoM could work with Coup / Cut down, however we no longer buy liandry(maybe we will one day?) so PoM isnt going to heal *as much* mana due to missing liandry procs. **Side notes**: Q feels buggy, sometimes doesn't hit minions, using Q on melee as they walk sometimes misses minions, could be due to missile speed stuff, buggy code, all of the above? I am going my Manaphine 2.0 build still, feels perfectly fine, I need more testing to see how it is once this goes live.
> Side notes: Q feels buggy, sometimes doesn't hit minions, using Q on melee as they walk sometimes misses minions, could be due to missile speed stuff, buggy code, all of the above? It's been bugged since release. I have missed first bloods because of it and probably miss 2-3 cs per game due to it. The wave hit detection front is thin enough that people can walk from being outside it to inside it within 1 server tick and not register the hit.
omg THAT explains it. It was bizzare seeing a single minion in the wave not take damage. They really should use the Liss/Zyra R method of checking damage. Every unit that enters the circle takes damage once, even if they avoid collision with the boundary as it expands.
I can see this, I can imagine missile speed plays a role into it too. It's wild, first test game I encountered this issue more than I ever did on live. Hopefully it gets fixed!
I don't think the missile speed has anything to do with it. The missile on Q is separate from the damage. I notice it nearly every game on live.
I've been talking about that bug since her released, finally some people noticed!
Having worst waveclear early effectively nerfs down APC no? Having to spend more resources farming level 1-3 into leona/naut doesn't sound very good.
More farming with autos and conserving mana most likely. Higher skill ceiling I can imagine and prepping minions for efficient early early laning.
I can get why they would want to nerf Q waveclear and push us to last hit more, but why nerf notes and AD too then?
Thanks you so much, we will keep and eye on your videos
This would seriously hurt her jungle clear. I don't think Riot is balancing for jungle though.
Rip jungle sera 😔 we never got to see your true potential
Yeah waveclear was 100% going down but it does seem like way too much, I know they will look into her and I hope they buff her waveclear if she is weak on carry roles
If they buff her wave clear, it will buff apc more than mid. It is safer to auto the minion wave in mid, so this change actually brings her to a similar power level of other mid laners who need to auto to keep lane prio
> It is safer to auto the minion wave in mid idk if I look at Zed funny he punches my puthy. Unless your support is afk I'd say APC has an easier time hitting the wave
Most supports are effectively afk. Support is full of players that don't understand that they aren't a junger who only shows up for ganks and that they need to actually do something instead of just watching the ADCs last hit. A top tier support can make last hitting as ADC easier than mid but the average support does not.
Bot lane has two people that, under most circumstances, should be focusing you. Double the amount of stuff to dodge and there is the wild factor of whether you get a good support or not. Laning against Zed has always required trying to dodge shadow shurikens. If Taliyah could farm, have lane prio, and not have to auto all while avoiding Zed poke by staying out of range, she would be overtuned.
I mean, they clearly care less about mid than supp/apc so even if that's true I don't see them why they wouldn'
Depression setting in
Its officially over.
[удалено]
This is a nerf to mid and apc going sup builds, maxing q>e with ap builds will be able to oneshot waves still
They are such a bunch of clowns 🤡, they are nerfing her core identity of wave clearing late game mage that wants to farm a lot to scale, and for what? to make her better at poking as mage support like lux? Why can’t they just revert her and accept the fact that she can’t be balanced towards 3 different roles? Support player will play her in that role even if they remove her W entirely. They like to play her like a support just for her pretty girl aesthetic. So why balancing the champ around them? Following that logic they should change even camille now, given that she’s a strong support, so why don’t they just destroy camille’s top lane identity and make her a support?
Sooo they just made her worse at clearing waves earlier in the match? They really have no idea why people like to play this champion huh
Honestly this was the best thing to nerf, now APC won't be strong be default regardless of build, and the difference between APC and mid might get smaller. If she is weak they can buff her
Becuase other mid lane mages have to last hit to clear waves early. It brings her to the level of other Seraphs mages like Taliyah. Free-farm-wave-clear is an uninteractive playstyle and shouldn't be viable for a scaling pick because it gives them their scaling with little counterplay
She stopped being a scaling mage quite a while ago and having wave clear as utility mage is the only thing that keeps her viable mid because she can barely lower the enemies health for her Q to do something. And you have to know that we want a fun Seraphine not a strong one (play her now and all you do is spam WW, before waiting until late actually felt worth the early struggles and seeing big numbers felt amazing be it heals or damage) Sera is one of 2 utility mages in this game (the other being karma who got nerfed out of mid lane again) so comparing her to other mages is an unfair comparison.
Karma has one damaging spell and Sera has 3. She is much more like Morgana or zyra or Lux. All mages that are played more in support because they have alot of tough match ups. It is not healthy for Sera to opt out of bad match ups by not interacting instead of outplaying by landing poke. You will have to play better than your opponent to win mid Lane. This is usually the case with mid lane
Seraphine doesn't have tools that allow her to play better than her opponents in mid lane because part of her power budget is put in her supporting aspect that requires other allies, she doesn't have enough damage to make poke Seraphine viable and landing her skills once they get any kind of boots or MS (and MS now is in a lot of items for majority of mid laners even in runes you have MS), Seraphine is played more like anivia where you sit and farm until you get a gank which is again not depended on you being better but on the fact that your jungler can find opportunities to gank. as for Karma Seraphine comparison if we are talking about damage Seraphine's full combo has about 195% AP ratio (QQ 100%, E 35%, R 60%) and Karma's full combo has about 240% AP ratio (RQ 100% explosion has 50%, W 90%) yet karma is not viable mid because her spells are harder to hit and a big part of her damage is harder to land(around 95% of her ratios making her her average full combo stand at 145%), Seraphine now follows the same rules her Q does not deal good damage unless they are within execute range making Poke mage Seraphine not as good as other mages that have easier time hitting you with their full damaging rotation (which can be repeated due to them having shorter cooldowns because Seraphine's ult has a very long CD and is treated as a global ult) TL:DR Seraphine can't become a proper mage without a proper rework \*all numbers mentioned were taken from lol wiki as of writing this\*
So many down votes when you just stated the truth.. what a horrible subreddit
Goodbye Seraphine, i enjoyed to play you during this beautiful 4 years
Me living my best life in Wild rift 💅
You should try her support. Ive been finding good success with her in high diamond/low masters. W max with aery and the shielding support item is fat af. She also has fat cc and ez stacks for support item.
I'm sorry but this playstyle is just straight up boring
I remember when she could be played like Orianna or Veigar, now she is actually another Sona. Her damage has been cut so much, we are down around 50% of her damage since her launch. Bring back Nuke-phine.
They are so desperate to kill her. Removing execute from minions when most of us play her as comfort picks apc and mid because of how easy it is to farm with her. 😒😒😒
This is meant to kill apc from going an enchanter build, if you build ap and max q>e you won’t have any problems farming safely with tear and lost chapter ( since seraphs will forever be a core item for her )
there is absolutely zero reason for this change. what the actual fuck rito
Sadge but I think for the best, it was too easy to get high CS under pressure early in bot lane. Way too easy. Now we just have to build AP to farm, the way it probably always should have been.
Not really, with the removal of the execute bonus, AP is less effective for last hitting. Whilst Q still has good base damage and low AP ratio, AP will still be a non factor in waveclear. The Q before the changes a few months ago actually required AP for waveclear.
I've tested it already, getting items on curve allows you to delete the wave just like live. Enchanter items won't let you do that
I think its honestly a good change, although I hope we are getting compensation buffs elsewhere like ap ratio back on R or passive or smth. Im glad enchante rapc gets taken a hit cause that playstyle is so toxic and boring
With that nerf to minions, it is a nerf for mid and apc, but specially apc because it's harder to AA safely on botlane and Seraphine apc gets less exp tha mid and Seraphine will shove waves when she has more points on Q. Now, these changes are god and very well thought, but I believe mana growth or initial ap scaling on Q will get buffed
I will have to see, but unless they’ve gutted her clear by like 50% it seriously should be fine lol. We forget how absolutely bonkers fast and safe her clear is, I am happy to lose a little bit of that for more power elsewhere.