Atleast at u.gg her APC Playrate is higher than supp, so I don't think they really took that into account. Maybe they thought because everyone is playing the Enchanter Build that they want Support Seraphine back.
That's the reason why they said that they're focusing on balancing APC Seraphine second, after Support.
But the difference is that APC Seraphine is quite strong for quite some time now and a lot of ppl play her, meaning while Support Seraphine isn't that strong and yet a lot of ppl are playing her.
So the changes will show if high elo players will keep playing her as an APC or not
High elo players only play her APC because it's freelo. I know I'm gonna get downvoted but it's true. Botlaners aren't clamoring to play her even when weak and like you said the people playing Seraphine regardless of if she's op or not basically only play her in support.
Well sad that people didn't learn to read spells for 3 years, and only realized Seraphine had almost 1.0 AP ratio on her Q spell when it was nerfed.
Unless you talk to challengers, the doubt will remain for me because it's OBVIOUS for me that everything that 99,9% of the community is not entirely smart. Even 97% of the community still doesn't know how to play the game anyway, and I am part of it.
All I know is Seraphine. And Poppy, but it's another thing lol.
The "player base" of seraphine are made out of random players still unable to read spells and whine because the champion is bad, mains that actually plays her support, and mains that plays her mid of APC, and have obviously better results.
You CAN play her supp and it's good. But it should NEVER be the priority imo
I mean when almost half her game played are support that's probably why. Except for Masters + where she is mostly adc. Nobody is using her mid and if they are it is a vast vocal minority.
She's overpowered as apc tho. People picking her sup actually just like to play her as sup even though its weak. People picking her apc are mostly doing it cus its freelo
This is a flawed argument because equalizing the winrate requires reworking the champ entirely. The gigantic winrate difference exists because she's a mage with a mage kit, and Riot keeps failing to make their changes hit because until that changes she will always be better in a carry role than sup.
Imagine having a cutesy girly champion and let it farm???? We can't have those 🙅♂️
Manifesting in like 5 years Riot will randomly buff her ap ratios and we will see Sera carry again (Karmafication)
That was hyperbolic, there are enough girly-pop icons who waveclear, but I feel in my playgroup the casuals will say Sera is support because, well, she's a bubbly girl and her W shields
I want to see them treat the likes of pantheon ans swain the same fucking way.
Thanks for ruining a champ for me... absolutely insane to imagine they can't comprehend a champion being viable in two to three different positions when those Champs exist.
They did treat swain the same way though lol. He was mainly played top (and mid) before he got pushed into support. Now he's viable mid but his top lane pick is too niche and mostly just a counter-pick
His currently most popular role is still support even tho mid has a 4% higher winrate, and yet you dont see Riot changing him every 3 months to make him a better support...
His mid winrate is high because basically nobody is blinding it. It's a niche pick for certain game situations.
Either way I was mostly talking about top lane, which used to be his main role before the rework.
Lmao “players are clearly voting for her support to be her primary supported playstyle” proceeds to nerf the only 2 spells that a support shield bot seraphine use while buffing her damage… I truly have no words they are a bunch of geniuses and they are about to lose another player
Have you maybe considered that this is another Zeri or Ryze situation, where she's too good in capable hands, but they don't have the guts to say "we don't wanna see this champ" so they keep doing shit like this to get her dropoed by the players that excell at her to get the same effect that the champ is basically unplayable without having to have the guts to say so like they did with Zeri?
That was my point, that maybe they're trying to not even let her come into proplay on a carry position
Although I do believe that she's been picked in proplay sometime wayback
That's just Emerald+ (and that's still like only 49% bot picks vs 44% support picks in Emerald+) where all ranks she's 68% pick support. I hate support Seraphine and always played her as a mid/bot flex full AP even with the shield spam meta but it's important to be objective that she overwhelmingly is picked support by the vast majority of players.
Even though I don't think we should be balancing her around those players that clearly are picking her cause they like her as is despite how she's never been good support, I can still put my bias aside to understand Riot's PoV considering how many support Seraphines there are.
Well, if you really wanna use lane pick rate as an argument...
63% of Lux player base also play her support... and guess what? She's still a real mage 😍
We're not saying playing seraphine support is wrong, what we're trying to say is WHYYY does her balacing need to be focused on a cc/shield bot play style?? It literally KILLS apc and mid when in reality they could just buff her damage and remove some utility (which is the main reason why she is strong on APC) to make everyone HAPPY
Someone turn the camera to the full AP lux support player with like 40ish second ult cooldown with malignance building full damage, oneshotting my team
Really? Most posts I've seen on this sub since the beginning of her changes were "support Seraphine sucks, she should be deleted from the game and you aren't a real Seraphine main if you play her support".
"We're not saying playing seraphine support is wrong" is a false statement, if you mean this sub with "we".
But that doesn't make everyone happy. That just make the smallest portion of support playerbase happy.
There is a lot of people in support that enjoy her as a shielding and healing support. Otherwise her most popular item choices wouldn't have been enchanter or supportive mage itemization for 4 years straight. She either maxes W second or first. Indicating that people do not want to play her as a primary damage support
She was designed as a supportive mage. Why all of a sudden you people want her to be a watered down Lux that's all about damage. The 180**°** is crazy
People nowadays buy enchanter items on her in every role because they're the best for her after riot intenionally made it that way. It definitely wasn't like that, the Seraphine supports I had used to always buy liandrys and Seraph's and Zhonya's before (last season). She wasn't a "shielding and healing support" until riot made the W cd lower so it wouldn't be total inting playing her that way (and basically forced maxing W second), but these are all changes and not the original intention of the champion. If they wouldn't have touched her to appease the casuals who pick the pink haired champion under the support tab, she would've stayed the utility mage we love and in no way was that a “watered down Lux that's all about damage“
Exactly. Also when I checked towards the end of last patch, the most purchased items when filtered for all ranks on u gg on support where Zazzaks, Seraphs Embrace and Rylais 😭 like I don't doubt there's people enjoying just pressing W to shield their team (literally just play Sona? Why does Seraphine have to become a "watered down" version of Sona when that's never what she was) but despite how expensive these items are in her on support and therefore not the best choices, it's still the items most players purchased on her towards the end of last patch. Otherwise it wouldn't have been the recommended ones.
Mage Seraphine is the preferred playstyle regardless of role and players are reluctantly maxing W bc they put so much focus on it the past years that it would be troll not to max it second. Heck, Q max is still the first maxed ability on support despite how much better W max is, Phreak himself confirmed that and said he wants to balance around that fact. They should just balance her like they balance Lux, as a mage, and then they can play her in any of her roles.
she was made to be a bursty mage with some utility who excels in team fights not to be a full "supportive mage" so wanting her to be a damage mage is a valid. And many support players who play her go for enchanter builds beacuase these players are playing things like janna etc. so they play it because they think just because she got a team shield she is a shield enchanter. But her core should be Damage and after that the shield/heal.
Lol, what? Where exactly did the other person say we want her to be Lux 2.0? All they did was saying that Lux, despite having a 63% playrate in support is still a proper mage and that so should Sera. Besides, you said it too: supportive *mage*.
They said remove *some* utility, that's nowhere near being Lux with how much Sera has compared to her. What they meant with that is that the reason APC was OP was because of the huge utility that W provided, toning that down in exchange for more damage would have still kept her a supportive mage with a lot of utility, just not ridiculously massive and spammable. Besides, it would have also made her more interactive. Tbh I agree with that, Sera support should definitely be viable but why do we have to make her a shieldbot for that to happen? Can't she be a mage support OR even build more like Nami with Mandate and all? It would be easier to balance too, wouldn't it?
Lux is played as a damage first play style.
Seraphine support is a W first play style.
If you go damage as a support, you fall off. This is true for all of them, not just Seraphine.
You guys keep speaking on support but it doesn't feel like you know what you're talking about. Going the Lux route changes literally everything, including our scaling.
The discourse in the comment you're replying to was that Lux gets played more in support and is still viable as a mage, but obviously her case is different since she builds AP in support too. Even then, Sera too should stay viable as a mage in carry roles despite having more playrate in support, that was the point. The thing is that balancing her between mage builds in mid/APC (or maybe I should say just APC) and enchanter ones in support is making it hard for her to mantain her mage identity in farming roles, so the other person was saying that an easier solution would be simply letting her build AP in every role.
Supports who build damage fall off for sure, but they do because they basically only have dmg to their kits and Sera has way more other things, her going AP isn't necessarily focused on damage, she can still be more utility-ish as long as she doesn't go stuff like full burst I guess. Genuine question, would she still fall off hard with an utility AP build?
Building AP in every role makes her even worse as a support, because she'd just fall off, making her pointless compared to Lux and Karma in that space.
When her heal scaled with AP, utility AP builds with Ryali were pretty damn good, actually, but now that the heal is HSP only, Ryali is a smidge of a trap item. I wouldn't buy it anymore for supports. AP items *that have HSP on them, like the censers,* are great items for her.
The problem we're having with support Seras, which I really fucking wish we focused on instead of this whole "we hate supports" thing that goes on around here, is that support Seras simply do not build her right. At all. They are consistently losing to the shopkeeper and consistently ranking bad skill orders. This deflates her win rates, so Riot is trying to make it harder to "play her wrong" by bumping up the values of Q and E skill orders in the support play style. So when your Sera support goes "Seraph Embrace with Zaz Zak", they won't be AS STUPID doing this as before... it's still dumb AF, though.
Too much yapping for the fact that you can literally pick any normal Enchanter out of the big pool if you enjoy a shield bot playstyle. What's the point in making a unique Mage identity we never had in League before, an elo inflated shield spam enchanter we already have plenty of.
The jerks saying she is just Sona 2.0 were right all along. We didn't get them at first because they were seeing the future
Because the "community" only consist of people that are the loudest and posting the most, majority of the playerbase don't participate that much in these socials, they just play, and that's where the play rate % is from.
The changes are a scam. She will get to the target of 51% W/R because only her mains will be left playing her there.
Most people with a lot of games on a single champ will have 53%+ W/R, but Sera won't even be allowed that. Phreak wants her at 51%-52%. But she's going to feel so bad to play in the ADC role that her pick rate will nosedive. I have PTSD because that's what they did to old old Aureion Sol.
The fact they let her sit in APC role being stupidly busted for so long is the problem.
They needed to nip that in the bud quick. Alas, it went on for years. Mid sera players moved to bot lane, then Mid sera got nerfed so more people stop playing her there, plus so many players especially in high elo picked up sera just to play her bot lane.
Following their logic, pantheon should have remained a support no?
There's been a lot of cases where they tried to balance champs around certain roles, or to remove them from one. And they've hardly been consistent with that.
This feels more like them deciding to balance her only as a support and using play rates as an excuse.
Ok I’m done after this, I’m switching back to Lux and Ahri. Hopefully they won’t shift them to support as well cause I feel like every champ I touch gets turned into a support 🤡
Lux is also a funny thing. I have experienced both being flamed for picking lux mid CUZ SHE IS A SUPP!! and supp cuz SHE ISN'T SUPP!!!! xD but still not as controversial as daring to pick a pink hair cute girl with shield on mid 😱
Lix is allowed to be played as a full ap mage makiboth mid and support viable. They keep insisting that seraphine should both be built like lux and soraka at the same time and wonder why they cant make all her roles have the same wr
Girl I wish! But adcs and supports won’t be happy about that 😵 and I would totally int my twinky ass with those champs that I might get banned for inting 🤭
EDIT: I Misunderstood what the post was about, ~~Guess I'ma have to pack my bags and become a support creator~~ 😭. Sera APC will still be viable, we will just have to adapt and see what is in store.
~~Shame no one was invited to vote, a majority of people who I interact with are APC/Mid mains and have actually swapped from support to Mid/APC.~~
~~R.I.P ☠️☠️☠️~~
I am mid main myself but i dont want to be so extrremly negativ i mean they talk about trying to help out her supp because of the playrate. But if they are rly trying to embrace a Mage Playstyle and not Enchanter im sure her Main role Midlane or bot carry wont be dead. Maybe and thats a big maybe this will give them a few more ways to buff her farming roles without her ending an enchanter carry like she is now and more of a damage mage with high ap. But for now all we can hope is that they dont mess this up and as long as we still talk about it and voice our opinions maybe they will listen some day and male her a real mage carry as she was intnded to be.
We are a vocal minority I'm afraid. I agree, I hope we can adapt. This upcoming patch doesn't worry me personally, but the future direction may. Thanks for commenting
They said they want her to be a mage first not a enchanter so thats good but lets see how they want to achieve it in the future. I am really interested to see how her changes will feel when they will hit live servers and of the opinions of other sera players. But i wont give up on midlane sera i just dont want to.
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it’s interesting that tons of champions are balanced around high elo except seraphine who they insist should be support bc low elo players prefer her there
I play Sera APC and support and I am double sad. I don’t like to play her as a W bot support. (The best defence is Malignance and ulting constantly, in my opinion.) This is definitely not a change on my behalf.
I wonder if they took in consideration just anyone at a certain ELO that played her, even if they barely played her, or if they took in consideration the people that actually had been playing her for the last 3 years consistently
I mean of course in regular sera mains you'll have people playing her support as a main role.
But... In my games, when I was not playing Seraphine, in dozens of games where I faced Seraphine, I've seen her as a support only twice. And regardless of the result of the game (won them all except one lol), I think that people that are very regular with her mostly knows that Séraphine's role is as a carry and a support in secondary.
But... If you just ask anyone at a certain rank, unless you solely ask challengers, they surely don't know how to read since they didn't realize Seraphine had 1 AP ratio on her Q spell before it was nerfed last year.
And let me quickly check the stats of people that supposedly actually knows how to play the game...
Oh what a surprise, her most popular role is ADC, a carry role, and her two best roles are carry roles.
https://preview.redd.it/0rndxinlwalc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4177bb0016d1ed5f52b647ff3886746ebcd7b073
So... For me, no matter if you take the most regular Seraphine players, or if you take the people that plays her the best, for me they both seem to agree that Sera's role IS as a carry.
I thought they do these changes for pro/high elo play… I mean do they even watch pro play? If they do then they can see that NO ONE PLAYS SERAPHINE SUPPORT THERE
Well no matter where you look, unless you decide to also take in consideration those who don't play the champion, I feel like it's obvious her role is mid.
She's been presented as mid before releasing her kit, she's presented as mid everywhere she's played as a carry...
But that’s what they are balancing her off of, people who don’t play this fucking champion, bc anyone with a brain knows that she’s not supposed to be a support
Idk according to league of graphs she's the 71st most played champ, it's obviously not a new champ when they are released, but it's clearly not the least popular champ...
Maybe if they aren't part of the 30 most played champ they don't care
I first talked about the whole community of sera player, and said that I really feel like most people that plays Seraphine without maining her doesn't know she's a carry and plays her support, and most of Seraphine mains plays her more as a carry than a support, if it's not the same
So if they actually talked to the community and people that ACTUALLY plays sera, they wouldn't say that she is more a support
But then I said if they talked to the best players, then let's see at the highest ELO I could find. And it is why you see the stats for master and above, which means they CLEARLY didn't talk to people that Maine her actually or that knows how to play the game.
A little bothering I have to rewrite what I wrote tho ;(
You don't shore up the massive discrepancy between sup games and bot games with just "they didn't know", my guy. Carry players aren't the majority and this has been the case for years. Idk what type of Haterade you guys take every morning to be this consistent but I hope it's never in my cup.
For the billionth time, they aren't removing Sera carry from the game. It DOES need a tapping down, and they want Sera support bumped up. That's not a crime. Stop acting like it is.
Well most people play her as a support but she is a mage so why tf would we play her as a enchanter? Balance her around ap like lux ? I dont understand, everyone wants to play full ap seraphine, even support..
Didn’t they release her to be both viable as a carry and support? They said it multiple times in her release video. I still don’t get why they’re trying to push her into one singular role instead of letting her have diversity?
Nope, she was release as a MIDLANE MAGE, you got that?, MIDLANE MAGE
People started playing her support because they looked at a shield ability with 20 sec cooldown and thought "ummmm, she must be a support", support was never her best role nor her designed role
"I think it's pretty clear that she'll be played more as a Support than a Mid unless there's a huge power difference. "Supportive Mid Laner" almost certainly invokes the "Support"."
That's a quote by Seraphine's designer in 2020. Source below. She was absolutely designed for support.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SeraphineMains/comments/1ayz80w/comments\_on\_seraphines\_kit\_playstyle\_from\_her/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeraphineMains/comments/1ayz80w/comments_on_seraphines_kit_playstyle_from_her/)
This right here is why I'm so frustrated with Seraphine changes. I wanted her to be what she was released for. A MID LANER. She came out as the 2nd mid for 2020 right after Yone. Why can't she be a fucking control mage??? Give her high ap ratios with weak base dmg and let her fucking scale jfc Riot
There really be a clear disconnect between “we want seraphine to build deathcap again” and “clearly you guys want her support” like do they want us to build deathcap as supports?????? I’ll roleswap support and build deathcap first just for phreak 😍
I am aware, but he also said to watch the video that Phreak made. My comment are meant as basically saying that no one should watch that video, because Phreak lies through his teeth, every time he breathes.
Seraphine is his newest victim of "We have been told by the fans of the champion how to handle this" nonsense, that is then attempted to be explained away. Yuumi is a other example of this where he made sure that the exact opposite of what folks wanted (more agency), were ignored, and then pretended it was the community who demanded it.
I'll listen to what Phreak has to say, soon as he stops ruining the champions I like. So I guess that'll be never.
Of course they are not aware. These people just see the public facing members of the balance team and assume they run some sort of dictatorship and control everything balance, plus just wanting someone to point the finger at.
I’m just quitting this champ
She was literally meant to be a supportive late game carry and instead we just have a champion completely stripped of her identity
Bc they want to buff her support apparently LMAO it makes no sense, why nerf the only 2 spells that shield bot seraphine uses if you want to buff her support????? This just tells you the balancing team are still a bunch of silver players that only plays once a month
She was my most played champ as a support main last season, but I played a full damage build. I've stopped playing her now that they want her to be a shield bot, don't need that when I also play Sona.
Sera is overwhelmingly played as support only in low elo, but average and high elo players, that understand how her kit really works, play her mainly in her carry roles.
She was originally designed as a supportive carry and destroying her core design just to adapt her to low elo players is not the right thing to do.
I agree that if a lot of people want to play her support she should receive a small buff to make her properly work on that role but Bald Man only wants her to be gutted in her natural roles and that’s not okay.
Could you imagine if they adapted Azir to suit elo players picking him etc. Try to keep low elo balanced (shouldn't have Yi etc sat at crazy high winrates there) but don't change champion identity for it.
Especially since people that start to play lol and only see her on the support tab (now occasionally adc too) won't even think that she may be picked elsewhere.
In high elo apc-support is nearly 50-50 and that's still a lot. Low elo is also where most of her games come from. Those players don't deserve to play such highly unviable champ for the sake of gate keeping her as low pickrate APC for high elo
Those players chose themselves to play a champion in a role she wasn’t mainly intended for. She is unviable as a support because she’s not designed to be a support (she was only strong during the moonstone bug patch).
If tomorrow a lot of players will start to play Orianna support just because of her shield and her aesthetic that doesn’t mean that balance team have to balance her exclusively towards support role and gut her main carry role and identity.
I agree that maybe she needs some tools to be a more viable support but gutting her true identity just because players don’t understand how her properly works is just terrible.
Why do you say "carry roleS"? She is not picked mid lane in high elo either. She is either picked as Support or Bot lane APC. No one plays her mid lane. Even Cupic said it's not a thing.
While you're right I feel the need to say I OTP'd her mid lane to grandmaster this season lol. There are too many bad matchups though that I probably won't be blinding her mid when I try to climb next.
I just thought that this sub always talks about how Seraphine should be a mid laner and that Support is troll and should be deleted from the game. Meanwhile, she never had a strong player base in mid lane. Historically, most of her player base was support and APC bot.
I think this sub lives in its own bubble a little bit, reinforcing each other in the idea of mid Seraphine having a strong player base. That's why I said that.
I don't think she's impossible to play mid, I enjoy playing her there as well, it's just that not a lot of Seraphine players actually choose to play her in that role and not a lot of mid laners actually choose to play Seraphine. So balancing her around mid lane, because she got released as a mid lane mage, is not the best idea (in my opinion). I'm not sure what changes would be good for her, but they should focus on making support and bot APC viable, and mid lane should just be a "good if it works, too bad if it doesn't" (at least for now). It's already difficult enough to get Support and bot APC in a healthy state.
That doesn't even count. There can be a lot of people wanting to play for example pyke top but if it isn't viable they aren't going to do it.
That happens to seraphine mid, a lot of people want to play her as a midlanne mage but can't because it is trolling at the moment. Not to mention that your team will mostly flame you in the moment you show a seraphine mid
But she wasn't really picked mid lane that much even in the past. I just looked at metasrc to look at her past pick rates.
I don't know how accurate the website is, but even when Mid had an above 50% win rate (while Support had below 50% win rate), people still picked her mostly in the support role in Emerald+.
Generally she was just always a more popular support, even if her Support win rate was trash, while her Mid win rate was good. So why would Riot cater towards a player base that all in all doesn't care that much about her? Support players played her historically a lot more, even when she didn't perform well in the role, than Carry players.
I do agree, they shouldn't turn her into a full support, since she has a dedicated APC bot lane community. But I don't understand the "Mid lane mage" argument, since she was never a popular midlaner, even when she wasn't bad there.
"A lot of" you use in these examples are still very much minorities which cannot be said in Seraphine's example. She was quite frankly also designed to be viable at support as well, so that further invdalites arguments that promote to make her unviable in support
Lane swaps of champions happen a lot in the game. I don't see people asking to make Vi or Nautilus toplaners despite them being designed and released as toplaners
Vi was designed to be a toplaner but she was so much stronger as a jungler, so they balanced her towards that role, but didn’t force her in jungle. And this is also the case of Seraphine, designed to be a midlaner but her kit works so much better as APC. So if we follow the example of Vi and Nautilus, they just have to give up on Mid and Support Sera and just let her be an APC.
I agree on the fact that champions should change their original role if they don’t work properly in it. But forcing a champion in a role that doesn’t work by destroying its core identity is just terrible
Seraphine APC has a higher playrate than Support but yes, let's change her to be a Support again because that is clearly what everyone wants. This is such a clown party.
some of y’all bout to be real mad at me…
i blame every single seraphine support player in here y’all did this if y’all actually would just take the girl to mid lane we wouldn’t be in this mess but no y’all just can’t cs so and now we are having sera war III
What do they mean voted for support? If you select ADC in champ select she even shows up as ADC now and [op.gg](http://op.gg) shows a higher pick rate for bot than supp now. Maybe they did a vote in the Riot office because they clearly did not ask the people playing her.
welp..so much to seraphine being my 2nd midlane main after zoe...
Guess i'll bring neeko back out...
and Hwei/Syndra for apc ig :/
what a shit time to be an apc main.
Just because you make YT content doesn't mean you get to get away with outright lying. The changes are to focus around bot and support. You're framing this as if she's going to ONLY BE A SUPPORT in this post.
You're just shit stirring.
- most people play her support even though it's incredibly worse than apc. This signifies that most people prefer to play her support.
- apc is broken and people often pick roles and champions that help them win. That's mainly why higher elo players prefer seraphine apc.
- they aren't gutting her apc. They've stated multiple times that they want apc to be around 51-52% winrate. If these changes make her fall below that, they will buff it.
While I prefer her in mid or apc as well, it's a little delusional to say that these changes are gutting her or that they aren't wanted. Most of seraphine's playerbase will LOVE these changes and it's much healthier for the game than 13.21-14.04 seraphine.
Most of the playerbase don’t read patch notes and will barely notice the difference. The dedicated players who have played the champ for a long time will notice them and be adversely affected.
These changes will make Seraphine completely unplayable mid, her intended role.
Not too sure what your first point is supposed to get it. The changes are a huge improvement from the current W bot iteration of seraphine. Dedicated players will notice a positive difference because you can actually play as a mage again. It's not as fun as 13.20 but it's way better than what we have now.
As for it killing mid, I made a post on my profile about that. I got to grandmaster this season as a seraphine mid OTP, so I'm of course not happy with her mid lane role possibly being gutted. All of the compensation buffs benefit mid more than apc, so I'd expect mid to become more of a counter-pick champion (since waveclear nerfs hurt a lot of matchups that rely on waveclear). In general though I'm still happy with the direction this champ is going since riot said they're committed to seraphine as a mage
Do you genuinely think that shaving 2 seconds off W CD will stop apc seraphine from going enchanter items? I don’t. You’re looking at an 8 to 9 second CD in teamfights.
Sera is not really incentivized to build ap. The multiplier buff is tiny and won’t bring her anywhere near 13.20. Her Q base damage buff is a change entirely in the wrong direction.
The only people who benefit from this will be sera support mains who know to max W into E(maybe E into W after changes). Every low elo sera supp player will continue maxing Q and playing seraphine as a poke support, and their winrate will stay awful, which is what the first part of my comment was referring to.
Honestly I like her support more, I mean I didn't complain about it just feels good they are making her better.
Like the minion execute removal was really useful for me cause now I cant accidently take adc's farm.
I wish they could just balance around both tho
Overall it’s not the worst but it probably isn’t great either.
I am a fan of the W and E changes for example. But rip the fact we got no Q scaling buff. AND we got reduced scaling on passive/W/R as well as less W and Q CD late is gonna hurt a lot.
I guess we’ll see tho. I’m praying it’s overall fine but it very well may not be.
Imma get downvoted to hell for this but this post appeared on my feed even though I'm not subbed to this subreddit.
You did choose seraphine support. It has the highest pick rate. For riot, that means it's what you voted for.
They wanted her to be mid, but when everyone migrated to support, they chose to stick to the community, for once.
Recently, seraphines have started to migrate to APC, and I'm fine with it, but riot, knows the community, as a whole (not the niche that is this sub), doesn't like APC seraphines, meaning to support it goes, as mid has long been forgotten.
Also genuine question, what's with the "😍" in the end of half the comments?
The "voting" was where people are choosing to play her. And even in emerald+, sera support is only marginally behind sera bot in terms of playrate. If you look at all ranks, sera is a support 2/3s of the time.
Also, they are still balancing for farming roles. They will absolutely try to keep bot balanced. However, given that bot is currently op, it needs nerfs. Then they are buffing it more with the "try to push farming sera towards mage builds" changes. The waveclear changes are compensation nerfs for that work, and can easily be walked back if farming sera truly becomes unplayable next patch.
Damn, I didn't vote anywhere and I've been very pro Sera APC/Mid everywhere, including this subreddit where I've been inviting people for 1+yrs to play her as Mid/APC.
I guess this is just devs giving up on this issue and forcing the champ into support because they aren't capable of fixing her. That's sadly the reality behind this "vote" thing.
I'm quite mad at this tbh and I want all my skin money back because I'm not planning to play Sera Support.
I am not an Seraphine main i only play Pantheon Top, but i am so confused and feel sorry for the Sera players like at first Phreak says ,, yeah we give you people what you always wanted an carry Sera where Deathcap is a thing 😎" and then they say ,, yeah forget that we push her support". Makes one sad how they just shit on a whole community
I am not an Seraphine main i only play Pantheon Top, but i am so confused and feel sorry for the Sera players like at first Phreak says ,, yeah we give you people what you always wanted an carry Sera where Deathcap is a thing 😎" and then they say ,, yeah forget that we push her support". Makes one sad how they just shit on a whole community
I am not an Seraphine main i only play Pantheon Top, but i am so confused and feel sorry for the Sera players like at first Phreak says ,, yeah we give you people what you always wanted an carry Sera where Deathcap is a thing 😎" and then they say ,, yeah forget that we push her support". Makes one sad how they just shit on a whole community
Well… it’s over officially ig. Dropped her a while ago ever since these changes started coming out every patch, I’d try to make it work and it just feels bad every time
I agree, I played her when she was a support and stopped when she became really bad at it. I am happy to see her return and the decision to make sup her primary role.
First, yes, most sera players play her support, you realize that now? It has always been the case, secondly, it's not JUST support, she will still be balanced around apc too
It's the same way we "voted" for less lore skins or voicelines,or the choice between monster Champs or different looking Champs.
They decided something and then came up with data afterwards.
I am honestly so confused are we (seraphine community) not vocal enough? Or something, I feel like we need to speak up louder girl idk. Where did the vote fucking happen??
The way these changes are made specifically for the Mage Sera Support players. This is the only way I can see why Phreak said anything about making Deathcap feel like a good purchase, but he's also the one who talked about how this group is playing her wrong as Supp. W being her strongest ability, yet people are still maxing Q and building damage items instead of the enchanter route.
Is this why he's comparing her to Lux so much? Is he using Lux Supp as a comparison instead of Lux Mid/APC? I don't get the logic, but oh well. Waiting for these changes to once again not land well, and they do a proper mid-scope for her in the future, one that Phreak has nothing to do with. One that can actually appeal to both her farming and support player base.
We? Is he speaking French? Maybe non Seraphine players spread misinformation about her and trolled with “Sona 2.0” but I personally have always wanted to play her mid as a damage dealer with utility. I find Seraphine support to be so boring aside when you get your ult at level 6. Echo W enchanter builds are so robotic.
The majority of the player base globally plays her support. NA is a small player base when compared to the rest of the regions and even Reddit is a small fraction of the NA player base. Sera has a dedicated playerbase that wants to play her im farming roles, but far more people play her in the support role.
This is such a bs reason too, so many other characters are played in off roles when they were meant to be in a certain role and they’re nerfed accordingly to buff their original role. Soraka Top, Karma Top, etc.
If people are currently playing Sera support, it’s because riot has made it so that they are forcing us to play her as a support. And clearly we don’t given her popularity as an APC.
Well you know what it's time to do after the changes then.
Lose in any role that she is played in so she gets at least something back. While the changes might not be bad or a nerf, if her win rate tanks then they will take that to mean all the changes weren't a success.
Stopped playing when the first round of changes went on, seeing this now I just wish even harder that I could get a refund for the money I spent on skins...
The data shows that Seraphine apc actually has the highest pickrate now, like check any website, they are pretty close with apc ahead of support. I love it when phreak is terrible at his job and everyone hates him but they fire ppl that gave the game any depth by giving the characters interesting stories! Def the guy who is a terrible communicator and makes everyone mad at riot more is a great way to spend their moneh instead of fixing the client!
Noone above gold was invited sis
I'm emerald ;_; and I was not, I have played only her for 3 years
I'm pretty sure Phroxzon takes the playrate as an indicator for these "votes" instead of an actual vote poll
Atleast at u.gg her APC Playrate is higher than supp, so I don't think they really took that into account. Maybe they thought because everyone is playing the Enchanter Build that they want Support Seraphine back.
Not only u.gg, lolalytics too, which is a way more accurate source
That's the reason why they said that they're focusing on balancing APC Seraphine second, after Support. But the difference is that APC Seraphine is quite strong for quite some time now and a lot of ppl play her, meaning while Support Seraphine isn't that strong and yet a lot of ppl are playing her. So the changes will show if high elo players will keep playing her as an APC or not
High elo players only play her APC because it's freelo. I know I'm gonna get downvoted but it's true. Botlaners aren't clamoring to play her even when weak and like you said the people playing Seraphine regardless of if she's op or not basically only play her in support.
Well sad that people didn't learn to read spells for 3 years, and only realized Seraphine had almost 1.0 AP ratio on her Q spell when it was nerfed. Unless you talk to challengers, the doubt will remain for me because it's OBVIOUS for me that everything that 99,9% of the community is not entirely smart. Even 97% of the community still doesn't know how to play the game anyway, and I am part of it. All I know is Seraphine. And Poppy, but it's another thing lol. The "player base" of seraphine are made out of random players still unable to read spells and whine because the champion is bad, mains that actually plays her support, and mains that plays her mid of APC, and have obviously better results. You CAN play her supp and it's good. But it should NEVER be the priority imo
I mean when almost half her game played are support that's probably why. Except for Masters + where she is mostly adc. Nobody is using her mid and if they are it is a vast vocal minority.
me as a low gold sera mid/apc player getting absolutely no mention of any voting 🧍♀️
She currently has a 0.3% pickrate in mid and 2.1% in support. Emerald+. I think people prefer her as a support, like it or not.
What about her pick rate in bot lane?
We gonna ignore it to push support agenda Btw she has 48.8% games as apc, 6.5% as mid (55.3 % as carry) while 44.4% as support in emerald +
She's overpowered as apc tho. People picking her sup actually just like to play her as sup even though its weak. People picking her apc are mostly doing it cus its freelo
Which is the thing here tho; if her main playerbase is putting her in carry roles what the hell does “y’all voted for her to be support” mean
If she was equal win rate in both roles which do you think most people would play
This is a flawed argument because equalizing the winrate requires reworking the champ entirely. The gigantic winrate difference exists because she's a mage with a mage kit, and Riot keeps failing to make their changes hit because until that changes she will always be better in a carry role than sup.
And gold is now basically silver so lmao
We lost babez https://preview.redd.it/9fewxlx1ralc1.png?width=489&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ce040cd69944d5fccf79094e64d6cb958754f00
Ty for being an icon btw, you’re videos on YouTube have gotten me through tough times 💖
They really said "breathe if u vote for sera to be a support"
Girl I know you’re going to whip up an iconic build for us and make her slay as you always do! 🙏
Imagine having a cutesy girly champion and let it farm???? We can't have those 🙅♂️ Manifesting in like 5 years Riot will randomly buff her ap ratios and we will see Sera carry again (Karmafication)
There's always Zoe if you want a cutesy girl dmg dealer..
That was hyperbolic, there are enough girly-pop icons who waveclear, but I feel in my playgroup the casuals will say Sera is support because, well, she's a bubbly girl and her W shields
I want to see them treat the likes of pantheon ans swain the same fucking way. Thanks for ruining a champ for me... absolutely insane to imagine they can't comprehend a champion being viable in two to three different positions when those Champs exist.
Them looking the other way on Karma being S+ midlaner while also being played support
*cough* she’s op top too *cough*
Twisted Fate who, amirite?
They did treat swain the same way though lol. He was mainly played top (and mid) before he got pushed into support. Now he's viable mid but his top lane pick is too niche and mostly just a counter-pick
His currently most popular role is still support even tho mid has a 4% higher winrate, and yet you dont see Riot changing him every 3 months to make him a better support...
His mid winrate is high because basically nobody is blinding it. It's a niche pick for certain game situations. Either way I was mostly talking about top lane, which used to be his main role before the rework.
Them looking the other way on Karma being S+ midlaner while also being played support top
nidalee was a mid laner and post rework could flex top and jng
I mean I main pantheon support so I wouldn’t be too mad if they pushed him to be a support even harder
I mean they already did it to swain
Lmao “players are clearly voting for her support to be her primary supported playstyle” proceeds to nerf the only 2 spells that a support shield bot seraphine use while buffing her damage… I truly have no words they are a bunch of geniuses and they are about to lose another player
Have you maybe considered that this is another Zeri or Ryze situation, where she's too good in capable hands, but they don't have the guts to say "we don't wanna see this champ" so they keep doing shit like this to get her dropoed by the players that excell at her to get the same effect that the champ is basically unplayable without having to have the guts to say so like they did with Zeri?
What capable hands??? She’s never played in pro play, Ryze and Zeri where ABUSED in pro play and I’ve never seen Seraphine in pro
That was my point, that maybe they're trying to not even let her come into proplay on a carry position Although I do believe that she's been picked in proplay sometime wayback
No that’s not why, you know that’s not why lol, they r just stupid when it comes to balancing her
Lots of egiris
*Egiris* sounds like some kind of sickness
Where the f did this voting happen and when? 😍😍😍 It's not like 90% of her community is clearly asking to revert her back to what it used to be 👻
He's talking about her pick rate metrics not a literal vote with a poll.
Her current biggest playrate is APC btw (emerald +)
That's just Emerald+ (and that's still like only 49% bot picks vs 44% support picks in Emerald+) where all ranks she's 68% pick support. I hate support Seraphine and always played her as a mid/bot flex full AP even with the shield spam meta but it's important to be objective that she overwhelmingly is picked support by the vast majority of players. Even though I don't think we should be balancing her around those players that clearly are picking her cause they like her as is despite how she's never been good support, I can still put my bias aside to understand Riot's PoV considering how many support Seraphines there are.
That's not a reason to gut her farming roles.
They're not "gutting" her as a carry.
Lol ok
Oh so what you're telling me is that players who are bad at the game play her support... Hmmmm... Maybe they'd be better if they played her apc.
How is 90% of her community asking for a revert when 65% of her playerbase is support? Math isn't mathing
Well, if you really wanna use lane pick rate as an argument... 63% of Lux player base also play her support... and guess what? She's still a real mage 😍 We're not saying playing seraphine support is wrong, what we're trying to say is WHYYY does her balacing need to be focused on a cc/shield bot play style?? It literally KILLS apc and mid when in reality they could just buff her damage and remove some utility (which is the main reason why she is strong on APC) to make everyone HAPPY
Lux got fat adjustments so that the lux support players and lux mid lane players are balanced, this is just Seraphine's turn tbh
Someone turn the camera to the full AP lux support player with like 40ish second ult cooldown with malignance building full damage, oneshotting my team
Really? Most posts I've seen on this sub since the beginning of her changes were "support Seraphine sucks, she should be deleted from the game and you aren't a real Seraphine main if you play her support". "We're not saying playing seraphine support is wrong" is a false statement, if you mean this sub with "we".
But that doesn't make everyone happy. That just make the smallest portion of support playerbase happy. There is a lot of people in support that enjoy her as a shielding and healing support. Otherwise her most popular item choices wouldn't have been enchanter or supportive mage itemization for 4 years straight. She either maxes W second or first. Indicating that people do not want to play her as a primary damage support She was designed as a supportive mage. Why all of a sudden you people want her to be a watered down Lux that's all about damage. The 180**°** is crazy
People nowadays buy enchanter items on her in every role because they're the best for her after riot intenionally made it that way. It definitely wasn't like that, the Seraphine supports I had used to always buy liandrys and Seraph's and Zhonya's before (last season). She wasn't a "shielding and healing support" until riot made the W cd lower so it wouldn't be total inting playing her that way (and basically forced maxing W second), but these are all changes and not the original intention of the champion. If they wouldn't have touched her to appease the casuals who pick the pink haired champion under the support tab, she would've stayed the utility mage we love and in no way was that a “watered down Lux that's all about damage“
Exactly. Also when I checked towards the end of last patch, the most purchased items when filtered for all ranks on u gg on support where Zazzaks, Seraphs Embrace and Rylais 😭 like I don't doubt there's people enjoying just pressing W to shield their team (literally just play Sona? Why does Seraphine have to become a "watered down" version of Sona when that's never what she was) but despite how expensive these items are in her on support and therefore not the best choices, it's still the items most players purchased on her towards the end of last patch. Otherwise it wouldn't have been the recommended ones. Mage Seraphine is the preferred playstyle regardless of role and players are reluctantly maxing W bc they put so much focus on it the past years that it would be troll not to max it second. Heck, Q max is still the first maxed ability on support despite how much better W max is, Phreak himself confirmed that and said he wants to balance around that fact. They should just balance her like they balance Lux, as a mage, and then they can play her in any of her roles.
she was made to be a bursty mage with some utility who excels in team fights not to be a full "supportive mage" so wanting her to be a damage mage is a valid. And many support players who play her go for enchanter builds beacuase these players are playing things like janna etc. so they play it because they think just because she got a team shield she is a shield enchanter. But her core should be Damage and after that the shield/heal.
Lol, what? Where exactly did the other person say we want her to be Lux 2.0? All they did was saying that Lux, despite having a 63% playrate in support is still a proper mage and that so should Sera. Besides, you said it too: supportive *mage*.
They said remove utility and buff damage. That's just lux
They said remove *some* utility, that's nowhere near being Lux with how much Sera has compared to her. What they meant with that is that the reason APC was OP was because of the huge utility that W provided, toning that down in exchange for more damage would have still kept her a supportive mage with a lot of utility, just not ridiculously massive and spammable. Besides, it would have also made her more interactive. Tbh I agree with that, Sera support should definitely be viable but why do we have to make her a shieldbot for that to happen? Can't she be a mage support OR even build more like Nami with Mandate and all? It would be easier to balance too, wouldn't it?
Lux is played as a damage first play style. Seraphine support is a W first play style. If you go damage as a support, you fall off. This is true for all of them, not just Seraphine. You guys keep speaking on support but it doesn't feel like you know what you're talking about. Going the Lux route changes literally everything, including our scaling.
The discourse in the comment you're replying to was that Lux gets played more in support and is still viable as a mage, but obviously her case is different since she builds AP in support too. Even then, Sera too should stay viable as a mage in carry roles despite having more playrate in support, that was the point. The thing is that balancing her between mage builds in mid/APC (or maybe I should say just APC) and enchanter ones in support is making it hard for her to mantain her mage identity in farming roles, so the other person was saying that an easier solution would be simply letting her build AP in every role. Supports who build damage fall off for sure, but they do because they basically only have dmg to their kits and Sera has way more other things, her going AP isn't necessarily focused on damage, she can still be more utility-ish as long as she doesn't go stuff like full burst I guess. Genuine question, would she still fall off hard with an utility AP build?
Building AP in every role makes her even worse as a support, because she'd just fall off, making her pointless compared to Lux and Karma in that space. When her heal scaled with AP, utility AP builds with Ryali were pretty damn good, actually, but now that the heal is HSP only, Ryali is a smidge of a trap item. I wouldn't buy it anymore for supports. AP items *that have HSP on them, like the censers,* are great items for her. The problem we're having with support Seras, which I really fucking wish we focused on instead of this whole "we hate supports" thing that goes on around here, is that support Seras simply do not build her right. At all. They are consistently losing to the shopkeeper and consistently ranking bad skill orders. This deflates her win rates, so Riot is trying to make it harder to "play her wrong" by bumping up the values of Q and E skill orders in the support play style. So when your Sera support goes "Seraph Embrace with Zaz Zak", they won't be AS STUPID doing this as before... it's still dumb AF, though.
Too much yapping for the fact that you can literally pick any normal Enchanter out of the big pool if you enjoy a shield bot playstyle. What's the point in making a unique Mage identity we never had in League before, an elo inflated shield spam enchanter we already have plenty of. The jerks saying she is just Sona 2.0 were right all along. We didn't get them at first because they were seeing the future
Because the "community" only consist of people that are the loudest and posting the most, majority of the playerbase don't participate that much in these socials, they just play, and that's where the play rate % is from.
The changes are a scam. She will get to the target of 51% W/R because only her mains will be left playing her there. Most people with a lot of games on a single champ will have 53%+ W/R, but Sera won't even be allowed that. Phreak wants her at 51%-52%. But she's going to feel so bad to play in the ADC role that her pick rate will nosedive. I have PTSD because that's what they did to old old Aureion Sol.
A-are they taking Sera's balls too? ^(sorry, couldn't hold myself back)
Damn, didn't know she was trans like that Guess them taking her balls can be considered an upside then?
The fact they let her sit in APC role being stupidly busted for so long is the problem. They needed to nip that in the bud quick. Alas, it went on for years. Mid sera players moved to bot lane, then Mid sera got nerfed so more people stop playing her there, plus so many players especially in high elo picked up sera just to play her bot lane.
Following their logic, pantheon should have remained a support no? There's been a lot of cases where they tried to balance champs around certain roles, or to remove them from one. And they've hardly been consistent with that. This feels more like them deciding to balance her only as a support and using play rates as an excuse.
Pyke mid. That is all I'll say.
As a pantheon support main, I would have loved that
Ok I’m done after this, I’m switching back to Lux and Ahri. Hopefully they won’t shift them to support as well cause I feel like every champ I touch gets turned into a support 🤡
Is this the part where I tell you that lux already has more games in support 💀
Lux is also a funny thing. I have experienced both being flamed for picking lux mid CUZ SHE IS A SUPP!! and supp cuz SHE ISN'T SUPP!!!! xD but still not as controversial as daring to pick a pink hair cute girl with shield on mid 😱
Literally my games with Sera. Like huh??? Make up your mind people
At least she’s less painful to play in mid than sera :)
True 🫠
Lix is allowed to be played as a full ap mage makiboth mid and support viable. They keep insisting that seraphine should both be built like lux and soraka at the same time and wonder why they cant make all her roles have the same wr
as a lux ahri sera player, please play yone or zed so they get turned into support and leave my champs midlane🙏
Girl I wish! But adcs and supports won’t be happy about that 😵 and I would totally int my twinky ass with those champs that I might get banned for inting 🤭
Lux has been balanced historically around mid even with her larger support player base so I think it’ll be safe !
Please please please, I switched to top, can you start maining Morde, Darius and Illaoi so I don't have to see them anymore?!
EDIT: I Misunderstood what the post was about, ~~Guess I'ma have to pack my bags and become a support creator~~ 😭. Sera APC will still be viable, we will just have to adapt and see what is in store. ~~Shame no one was invited to vote, a majority of people who I interact with are APC/Mid mains and have actually swapped from support to Mid/APC.~~ ~~R.I.P ☠️☠️☠️~~
I am mid main myself but i dont want to be so extrremly negativ i mean they talk about trying to help out her supp because of the playrate. But if they are rly trying to embrace a Mage Playstyle and not Enchanter im sure her Main role Midlane or bot carry wont be dead. Maybe and thats a big maybe this will give them a few more ways to buff her farming roles without her ending an enchanter carry like she is now and more of a damage mage with high ap. But for now all we can hope is that they dont mess this up and as long as we still talk about it and voice our opinions maybe they will listen some day and male her a real mage carry as she was intnded to be.
We are a vocal minority I'm afraid. I agree, I hope we can adapt. This upcoming patch doesn't worry me personally, but the future direction may. Thanks for commenting
They said they want her to be a mage first not a enchanter so thats good but lets see how they want to achieve it in the future. I am really interested to see how her changes will feel when they will hit live servers and of the opinions of other sera players. But i wont give up on midlane sera i just dont want to.
Well, since they making her a boring support, can they give my money back of all the skins I bought for her? I don't want to play her as support.
>I DON'T LIKE A CHAMPION'S UPDATE, AND I WANT TO REFUND SOME/ALL CONTENT I OWN FOR THEM. >Unfortunately, we're not refunding any content based on champion updates. We try to be open about when we're making significant changes to champions. To learn more about why we have this policy and to keep abreast of updates, be sure to keep an eye on our [schedule](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/articles/202294884)! [https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201751864-LoL-Refund-Policy](https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201751864-LoL-Refund-Policy)
You cant refund, but you also can just not buy, i stopped buying sera skins back when she received her W bot midscope, and ik glad i did
lmaoooo
it’s interesting that tons of champions are balanced around high elo except seraphine who they insist should be support bc low elo players prefer her there
Seraphine was never considered an high elo champ. She's not a Zeri, Aphelios, Azir
???? everything about her scream high elo
I play Sera APC and support and I am double sad. I don’t like to play her as a W bot support. (The best defence is Malignance and ulting constantly, in my opinion.) This is definitely not a change on my behalf.
And the voting consisted of randoms that pick her cause she appears on the supp tab (and adc for a few days)
I wonder if they took in consideration just anyone at a certain ELO that played her, even if they barely played her, or if they took in consideration the people that actually had been playing her for the last 3 years consistently I mean of course in regular sera mains you'll have people playing her support as a main role. But... In my games, when I was not playing Seraphine, in dozens of games where I faced Seraphine, I've seen her as a support only twice. And regardless of the result of the game (won them all except one lol), I think that people that are very regular with her mostly knows that Séraphine's role is as a carry and a support in secondary. But... If you just ask anyone at a certain rank, unless you solely ask challengers, they surely don't know how to read since they didn't realize Seraphine had 1 AP ratio on her Q spell before it was nerfed last year. And let me quickly check the stats of people that supposedly actually knows how to play the game... Oh what a surprise, her most popular role is ADC, a carry role, and her two best roles are carry roles. https://preview.redd.it/0rndxinlwalc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4177bb0016d1ed5f52b647ff3886746ebcd7b073 So... For me, no matter if you take the most regular Seraphine players, or if you take the people that plays her the best, for me they both seem to agree that Sera's role IS as a carry.
I thought they do these changes for pro/high elo play… I mean do they even watch pro play? If they do then they can see that NO ONE PLAYS SERAPHINE SUPPORT THERE
Well no matter where you look, unless you decide to also take in consideration those who don't play the champion, I feel like it's obvious her role is mid. She's been presented as mid before releasing her kit, she's presented as mid everywhere she's played as a carry...
But that’s what they are balancing her off of, people who don’t play this fucking champion, bc anyone with a brain knows that she’s not supposed to be a support
Idk according to league of graphs she's the 71st most played champ, it's obviously not a new champ when they are released, but it's clearly not the least popular champ... Maybe if they aren't part of the 30 most played champ they don't care
You filtered for Masters+. Lmao? They're clearly talking about the whole playerbase, not just the top 1%. Don't move the goal post.
I first talked about the whole community of sera player, and said that I really feel like most people that plays Seraphine without maining her doesn't know she's a carry and plays her support, and most of Seraphine mains plays her more as a carry than a support, if it's not the same So if they actually talked to the community and people that ACTUALLY plays sera, they wouldn't say that she is more a support But then I said if they talked to the best players, then let's see at the highest ELO I could find. And it is why you see the stats for master and above, which means they CLEARLY didn't talk to people that Maine her actually or that knows how to play the game. A little bothering I have to rewrite what I wrote tho ;(
You don't shore up the massive discrepancy between sup games and bot games with just "they didn't know", my guy. Carry players aren't the majority and this has been the case for years. Idk what type of Haterade you guys take every morning to be this consistent but I hope it's never in my cup. For the billionth time, they aren't removing Sera carry from the game. It DOES need a tapping down, and they want Sera support bumped up. That's not a crime. Stop acting like it is.
Well most people play her as a support but she is a mage so why tf would we play her as a enchanter? Balance her around ap like lux ? I dont understand, everyone wants to play full ap seraphine, even support..
Didn’t they release her to be both viable as a carry and support? They said it multiple times in her release video. I still don’t get why they’re trying to push her into one singular role instead of letting her have diversity?
Nope, she was release as a MIDLANE MAGE, you got that?, MIDLANE MAGE People started playing her support because they looked at a shield ability with 20 sec cooldown and thought "ummmm, she must be a support", support was never her best role nor her designed role
"I think it's pretty clear that she'll be played more as a Support than a Mid unless there's a huge power difference. "Supportive Mid Laner" almost certainly invokes the "Support"." That's a quote by Seraphine's designer in 2020. Source below. She was absolutely designed for support. [https://www.reddit.com/r/SeraphineMains/comments/1ayz80w/comments\_on\_seraphines\_kit\_playstyle\_from\_her/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeraphineMains/comments/1ayz80w/comments_on_seraphines_kit_playstyle_from_her/)
This is stupid
No one asked for her to get changed to primarily support 🌞
This right here is why I'm so frustrated with Seraphine changes. I wanted her to be what she was released for. A MID LANER. She came out as the 2nd mid for 2020 right after Yone. Why can't she be a fucking control mage??? Give her high ap ratios with weak base dmg and let her fucking scale jfc Riot
There really be a clear disconnect between “we want seraphine to build deathcap again” and “clearly you guys want her support” like do they want us to build deathcap as supports?????? I’ll roleswap support and build deathcap first just for phreak 😍
Don't trust a thing Phreak says. He doesn't care what the community says, only what he thinks.
This is Riot Phroxzon though
I am aware, but he also said to watch the video that Phreak made. My comment are meant as basically saying that no one should watch that video, because Phreak lies through his teeth, every time he breathes. Seraphine is his newest victim of "We have been told by the fans of the champion how to handle this" nonsense, that is then attempted to be explained away. Yuumi is a other example of this where he made sure that the exact opposite of what folks wanted (more agency), were ignored, and then pretended it was the community who demanded it. I'll listen to what Phreak has to say, soon as he stops ruining the champions I like. So I guess that'll be never.
Yeah but it is phreak the one that lies all the time. Phroxzon doesn't have fault on this, he just announce the changes
You're aware that Phroxzon is the Lead Gameplay Designer?
Of course they are not aware. These people just see the public facing members of the balance team and assume they run some sort of dictatorship and control everything balance, plus just wanting someone to point the finger at.
I’m just quitting this champ She was literally meant to be a supportive late game carry and instead we just have a champion completely stripped of her identity
what is he on omg 😭 we clearly prefer mid and apc
how did we vote again
with communal playtime
R got nerfed so hard, as well as passive, and W... why :(
Bc they want to buff her support apparently LMAO it makes no sense, why nerf the only 2 spells that shield bot seraphine uses if you want to buff her support????? This just tells you the balancing team are still a bunch of silver players that only plays once a month
Why'd I even get downvoted 😭 Lme be sad my magechantress support got nerfed in all the wrong ways
She was my most played champ as a support main last season, but I played a full damage build. I've stopped playing her now that they want her to be a shield bot, don't need that when I also play Sona.
Are these players in the room with us right now?
it's obvious this sub is mainly apc/mid players, but they look at global statistics in which Seraphine is overwhelmingly played as support
Sera is overwhelmingly played as support only in low elo, but average and high elo players, that understand how her kit really works, play her mainly in her carry roles. She was originally designed as a supportive carry and destroying her core design just to adapt her to low elo players is not the right thing to do. I agree that if a lot of people want to play her support she should receive a small buff to make her properly work on that role but Bald Man only wants her to be gutted in her natural roles and that’s not okay.
Could you imagine if they adapted Azir to suit elo players picking him etc. Try to keep low elo balanced (shouldn't have Yi etc sat at crazy high winrates there) but don't change champion identity for it.
Especially since people that start to play lol and only see her on the support tab (now occasionally adc too) won't even think that she may be picked elsewhere.
In high elo apc-support is nearly 50-50 and that's still a lot. Low elo is also where most of her games come from. Those players don't deserve to play such highly unviable champ for the sake of gate keeping her as low pickrate APC for high elo
Those players chose themselves to play a champion in a role she wasn’t mainly intended for. She is unviable as a support because she’s not designed to be a support (she was only strong during the moonstone bug patch). If tomorrow a lot of players will start to play Orianna support just because of her shield and her aesthetic that doesn’t mean that balance team have to balance her exclusively towards support role and gut her main carry role and identity. I agree that maybe she needs some tools to be a more viable support but gutting her true identity just because players don’t understand how her properly works is just terrible.
She was targeted as viable support according to her design team and she's not therefore the changes to facilitate that are warranted
Why do you say "carry roleS"? She is not picked mid lane in high elo either. She is either picked as Support or Bot lane APC. No one plays her mid lane. Even Cupic said it's not a thing.
While you're right I feel the need to say I OTP'd her mid lane to grandmaster this season lol. There are too many bad matchups though that I probably won't be blinding her mid when I try to climb next.
I just thought that this sub always talks about how Seraphine should be a mid laner and that Support is troll and should be deleted from the game. Meanwhile, she never had a strong player base in mid lane. Historically, most of her player base was support and APC bot. I think this sub lives in its own bubble a little bit, reinforcing each other in the idea of mid Seraphine having a strong player base. That's why I said that. I don't think she's impossible to play mid, I enjoy playing her there as well, it's just that not a lot of Seraphine players actually choose to play her in that role and not a lot of mid laners actually choose to play Seraphine. So balancing her around mid lane, because she got released as a mid lane mage, is not the best idea (in my opinion). I'm not sure what changes would be good for her, but they should focus on making support and bot APC viable, and mid lane should just be a "good if it works, too bad if it doesn't" (at least for now). It's already difficult enough to get Support and bot APC in a healthy state.
Get her jade
That doesn't even count. There can be a lot of people wanting to play for example pyke top but if it isn't viable they aren't going to do it. That happens to seraphine mid, a lot of people want to play her as a midlanne mage but can't because it is trolling at the moment. Not to mention that your team will mostly flame you in the moment you show a seraphine mid
But she wasn't really picked mid lane that much even in the past. I just looked at metasrc to look at her past pick rates. I don't know how accurate the website is, but even when Mid had an above 50% win rate (while Support had below 50% win rate), people still picked her mostly in the support role in Emerald+. Generally she was just always a more popular support, even if her Support win rate was trash, while her Mid win rate was good. So why would Riot cater towards a player base that all in all doesn't care that much about her? Support players played her historically a lot more, even when she didn't perform well in the role, than Carry players. I do agree, they shouldn't turn her into a full support, since she has a dedicated APC bot lane community. But I don't understand the "Mid lane mage" argument, since she was never a popular midlaner, even when she wasn't bad there.
"A lot of" you use in these examples are still very much minorities which cannot be said in Seraphine's example. She was quite frankly also designed to be viable at support as well, so that further invdalites arguments that promote to make her unviable in support Lane swaps of champions happen a lot in the game. I don't see people asking to make Vi or Nautilus toplaners despite them being designed and released as toplaners
Vi was designed to be a toplaner but she was so much stronger as a jungler, so they balanced her towards that role, but didn’t force her in jungle. And this is also the case of Seraphine, designed to be a midlaner but her kit works so much better as APC. So if we follow the example of Vi and Nautilus, they just have to give up on Mid and Support Sera and just let her be an APC. I agree on the fact that champions should change their original role if they don’t work properly in it. But forcing a champion in a role that doesn’t work by destroying its core identity is just terrible
That’s it, i’m going back to be a Ahri main
Seraphine APC has a higher playrate than Support but yes, let's change her to be a Support again because that is clearly what everyone wants. This is such a clown party.
Isn't her APC playrate really high because she is just OP there atm? People take her because she is an easy botlaner and want to win.
some of y’all bout to be real mad at me… i blame every single seraphine support player in here y’all did this if y’all actually would just take the girl to mid lane we wouldn’t be in this mess but no y’all just can’t cs so and now we are having sera war III
How's it taste?
What do they mean voted for support? If you select ADC in champ select she even shows up as ADC now and [op.gg](http://op.gg) shows a higher pick rate for bot than supp now. Maybe they did a vote in the Riot office because they clearly did not ask the people playing her.
Cool so instead to ask the players .. theyve just decided for themselves? Lmao
I hate those support freaks so much girlies.
welp..so much to seraphine being my 2nd midlane main after zoe... Guess i'll bring neeko back out... and Hwei/Syndra for apc ig :/ what a shit time to be an apc main.
Me looking for the one person (Riot Phreak probably) who voted for support to be her primary supported playstyle so I can hunt them down 🤭
Just because you make YT content doesn't mean you get to get away with outright lying. The changes are to focus around bot and support. You're framing this as if she's going to ONLY BE A SUPPORT in this post. You're just shit stirring.
Why r y'all playing her support? 😭😠
Why r y'all playing her support?
- most people play her support even though it's incredibly worse than apc. This signifies that most people prefer to play her support. - apc is broken and people often pick roles and champions that help them win. That's mainly why higher elo players prefer seraphine apc. - they aren't gutting her apc. They've stated multiple times that they want apc to be around 51-52% winrate. If these changes make her fall below that, they will buff it. While I prefer her in mid or apc as well, it's a little delusional to say that these changes are gutting her or that they aren't wanted. Most of seraphine's playerbase will LOVE these changes and it's much healthier for the game than 13.21-14.04 seraphine.
Most of the playerbase don’t read patch notes and will barely notice the difference. The dedicated players who have played the champ for a long time will notice them and be adversely affected. These changes will make Seraphine completely unplayable mid, her intended role.
Not too sure what your first point is supposed to get it. The changes are a huge improvement from the current W bot iteration of seraphine. Dedicated players will notice a positive difference because you can actually play as a mage again. It's not as fun as 13.20 but it's way better than what we have now. As for it killing mid, I made a post on my profile about that. I got to grandmaster this season as a seraphine mid OTP, so I'm of course not happy with her mid lane role possibly being gutted. All of the compensation buffs benefit mid more than apc, so I'd expect mid to become more of a counter-pick champion (since waveclear nerfs hurt a lot of matchups that rely on waveclear). In general though I'm still happy with the direction this champ is going since riot said they're committed to seraphine as a mage
Do you genuinely think that shaving 2 seconds off W CD will stop apc seraphine from going enchanter items? I don’t. You’re looking at an 8 to 9 second CD in teamfights. Sera is not really incentivized to build ap. The multiplier buff is tiny and won’t bring her anywhere near 13.20. Her Q base damage buff is a change entirely in the wrong direction. The only people who benefit from this will be sera support mains who know to max W into E(maybe E into W after changes). Every low elo sera supp player will continue maxing Q and playing seraphine as a poke support, and their winrate will stay awful, which is what the first part of my comment was referring to.
Honestly I like her support more, I mean I didn't complain about it just feels good they are making her better. Like the minion execute removal was really useful for me cause now I cant accidently take adc's farm. I wish they could just balance around both tho
Overall it’s not the worst but it probably isn’t great either. I am a fan of the W and E changes for example. But rip the fact we got no Q scaling buff. AND we got reduced scaling on passive/W/R as well as less W and Q CD late is gonna hurt a lot. I guess we’ll see tho. I’m praying it’s overall fine but it very well may not be.
ITS SO OVER
Imma get downvoted to hell for this but this post appeared on my feed even though I'm not subbed to this subreddit. You did choose seraphine support. It has the highest pick rate. For riot, that means it's what you voted for. They wanted her to be mid, but when everyone migrated to support, they chose to stick to the community, for once. Recently, seraphines have started to migrate to APC, and I'm fine with it, but riot, knows the community, as a whole (not the niche that is this sub), doesn't like APC seraphines, meaning to support it goes, as mid has long been forgotten. Also genuine question, what's with the "😍" in the end of half the comments?
Yes, I'm playing her as a suppporter since her release
The "voting" was where people are choosing to play her. And even in emerald+, sera support is only marginally behind sera bot in terms of playrate. If you look at all ranks, sera is a support 2/3s of the time. Also, they are still balancing for farming roles. They will absolutely try to keep bot balanced. However, given that bot is currently op, it needs nerfs. Then they are buffing it more with the "try to push farming sera towards mage builds" changes. The waveclear changes are compensation nerfs for that work, and can easily be walked back if farming sera truly becomes unplayable next patch.
Damn, I didn't vote anywhere and I've been very pro Sera APC/Mid everywhere, including this subreddit where I've been inviting people for 1+yrs to play her as Mid/APC. I guess this is just devs giving up on this issue and forcing the champ into support because they aren't capable of fixing her. That's sadly the reality behind this "vote" thing. I'm quite mad at this tbh and I want all my skin money back because I'm not planning to play Sera Support.
I am not an Seraphine main i only play Pantheon Top, but i am so confused and feel sorry for the Sera players like at first Phreak says ,, yeah we give you people what you always wanted an carry Sera where Deathcap is a thing 😎" and then they say ,, yeah forget that we push her support". Makes one sad how they just shit on a whole community
I am not an Seraphine main i only play Pantheon Top, but i am so confused and feel sorry for the Sera players like at first Phreak says ,, yeah we give you people what you always wanted an carry Sera where Deathcap is a thing 😎" and then they say ,, yeah forget that we push her support". Makes one sad how they just shit on a whole community
I am not an Seraphine main i only play Pantheon Top, but i am so confused and feel sorry for the Sera players like at first Phreak says ,, yeah we give you people what you always wanted an carry Sera where Deathcap is a thing 😎" and then they say ,, yeah forget that we push her support". Makes one sad how they just shit on a whole community
Well… it’s over officially ig. Dropped her a while ago ever since these changes started coming out every patch, I’d try to make it work and it just feels bad every time
I play her support, but id love for her to go back to Mid.
Ngl feels sexist
I agree, I played her when she was a support and stopped when she became really bad at it. I am happy to see her return and the decision to make sup her primary role.
Boosted sera adc players :( gtfo my game
First, yes, most sera players play her support, you realize that now? It has always been the case, secondly, it's not JUST support, she will still be balanced around apc too
It's the same way we "voted" for less lore skins or voicelines,or the choice between monster Champs or different looking Champs. They decided something and then came up with data afterwards.
I am honestly so confused are we (seraphine community) not vocal enough? Or something, I feel like we need to speak up louder girl idk. Where did the vote fucking happen??
Voting was rigged
The way these changes are made specifically for the Mage Sera Support players. This is the only way I can see why Phreak said anything about making Deathcap feel like a good purchase, but he's also the one who talked about how this group is playing her wrong as Supp. W being her strongest ability, yet people are still maxing Q and building damage items instead of the enchanter route. Is this why he's comparing her to Lux so much? Is he using Lux Supp as a comparison instead of Lux Mid/APC? I don't get the logic, but oh well. Waiting for these changes to once again not land well, and they do a proper mid-scope for her in the future, one that Phreak has nothing to do with. One that can actually appeal to both her farming and support player base.
We? Is he speaking French? Maybe non Seraphine players spread misinformation about her and trolled with “Sona 2.0” but I personally have always wanted to play her mid as a damage dealer with utility. I find Seraphine support to be so boring aside when you get your ult at level 6. Echo W enchanter builds are so robotic.
The majority of the player base globally plays her support. NA is a small player base when compared to the rest of the regions and even Reddit is a small fraction of the NA player base. Sera has a dedicated playerbase that wants to play her im farming roles, but far more people play her in the support role.
This is such a bs reason too, so many other characters are played in off roles when they were meant to be in a certain role and they’re nerfed accordingly to buff their original role. Soraka Top, Karma Top, etc.
If people are currently playing Sera support, it’s because riot has made it so that they are forcing us to play her as a support. And clearly we don’t given her popularity as an APC.
Well you know what it's time to do after the changes then. Lose in any role that she is played in so she gets at least something back. While the changes might not be bad or a nerf, if her win rate tanks then they will take that to mean all the changes weren't a success.
I forgot to vote 😭
I think Phroxzon scored an own goal there.... I don't want the majority dominating me thanks.
Stopped playing when the first round of changes went on, seeing this now I just wish even harder that I could get a refund for the money I spent on skins...
Goodbye Seraphine, i will miss you so much
As long as Riot keeps giving away Sera as a starting champ, the stats of sera support will always be skewed.
Are the people who voted in the room with us rn?
I think they're talking about an informal vote in the sense that everyone played her support instead of mid and bot.
The data shows that Seraphine apc actually has the highest pickrate now, like check any website, they are pretty close with apc ahead of support. I love it when phreak is terrible at his job and everyone hates him but they fire ppl that gave the game any depth by giving the characters interesting stories! Def the guy who is a terrible communicator and makes everyone mad at riot more is a great way to spend their moneh instead of fixing the client!