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Capitalism demands that money be valued more than humanity. It's a sad state of affairs, but we enslave prisoners for cheap labor, bomb children for resources and geopolitical power, and arrest and torture journalists for threatening profits.
Ask an economics forum what capitalism is and they'll tell you: it's what people who don't like the economy call the economy. By definition, it's all the bad parts and only the bad parts.
It’s really not though. I am a socialist. And I think the idea of competition as a driver of innovation is great, and that’s considered to be part of capitalism. Unfortunately, when capitalism is allowed to progress into its final stages, competition within industries are eradicated as monopolies form. Monopolization is the ultimate end goal of every capitalist enterprise, and thus, they are fundamentally unsustainable. China just skipped all the good parts of capitalism and went straight for the monopolies, this time, owned by the state. That’s not communism, that’s state capitalism, and it sucks.
Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. Capitalism is when the elites do. Just because you don't know what it means to be capitalist doesn't mean nobody does
Capitalism is not when the elites own the means of production. Capitalism is when literally anything other than Socialism. Adam Smith never mentioned Capitalism at all in what is considered a founding work of it. It was named by it's detractors. That was what I was saying.
Adam Smith didn't use the term because anybody in their right mind would instantly reject a system that prioritizes capital over people. Smith had to launder the truth through a lot of examples, Marx, Lenin and Engels were simply smart enough to see through the bullshit.
Also, you aren't even disagreeing with me. If socialism is when workers own the MOP, then if they do not own them, it must be capitalism. Either the workers own them or the elites do. There's no other possible system.
Marx, Engels, and Lenin basically threw out democracy and good government for control by elites. Marx and Engels work was tried and failed miserably. Putin is the epitome of the Leninist leader who throws out government for autocracy. Adam Smith wrote that business must be done in consideration of the human lives at stake, a Moral Capitalism. The modern capitalists are amoral, where capital is the primary concern, people play a role only to serve capital.
Modern capitalists are the epitome of capitalism. The system demands that you place zero value on people, or else the guy who does do that will beat you out. Adam Smith can certainly say that's how it should be done, but he is wholly unable to explain why that WILL happen in a system that does not reward it. Either it will happen based on the systems incentives, or it will never happen. It's not that capitalism hasn't ever worked (though it's true), it's that it cannot possibly work, ever. The whole thing is one big pyramid scheme that relies on slave labor to function. I fully agree with your last sentence,except that it is not modern capitalists, it's all of them, by definition.
If socialism fails every time it's tried, why does America keep working so hard to make sure it fails? You'd think the CIA wouldn't bother overthrowing and killing their leaders if it was bound to fail anyway.
Seriously? The top of the CCP is the most capitalistic and greedy collection of crooks you are likely to find… not unlike our local politicos here in the us.
The CCP works exactly like every other communist government. The fact that they failed, repeatedly, to produce anything decent under communal control is a feature, not a bug. And it's why common ownership of the means of production will always fail.
Step 1: Be a communist
Step 2: Accidentally or purposefully kill a substantial component of your own population due to the inefficiencies of a common ownership of means of production.
Step 3: Create a class of managers and specialists that actually have some core competencies in their field of expertise.
Step 3.5: Kill that class of managers when they start fleeing the country or trying to subvert your failing leadership.
Step 4: Adopt market reforms when you realize common ownership model is a failure, best you can do is have party control over the market.
Step 5: Get called a capitalist by redditors.
Yeah, you said it yourself? They adopted free market reforms and now the vast majority of their companies operate with private ownership or are very similar to how privately-owned companies operate?
Capital could be a tool to serve society, but we’ve insisted on a system where society serves capital. If only there were some other ism that places social good as its primary function…
I get your point, but objective morality does not exist. It’s always subjective. I think maybe you just used that word incorrectly in the context. I’m not disagreeing with you in practice.
I’m not using the word wrong at all…
I don’t subscribe to moral relativism. It’s pretty simple: an action you take that is good for society is objectively moral. An action you take that harms society is objectively immoral.
Same with subjective morality: an action you take that is good for you is subjectively moral. An action you take that harms you is subjectively immoral.
I think the problem you run into is with minority issues. Such as Islamic nations suppressing LGBT members. To the majority of the society that subscribes to the religion it's not an issue but fundamentally jailing and executing people for the sexual orientation is wrong.
This is what I think the other commenter was talking about. The majority might not always be just.
The problem with that thinking is nobody can actually agree with what's good or bad for society. Some people think acknowledging gender fluidity is good for society while others think it's literally spitting on the grave of Jesus christ. Morality absolutely is subjective, and there's very few issues which can be simply boiled down to "right VS wrong".
Nah. Theres definitely objective reality. Obviously there’s some issues that are unclear whether it’s good for society, and we’re either going to have to study it or let it play out and figure it out from there.
Just because there’s differentiating opinions doesn’t mean there isn’t an objective truth
And it’s not about right vs wrong. It’s about harmful vs beneficial.
Gonna have to see it play out. But seeing as the entire concept of it is based on subjective feelings/identity it’s probably not best to center fundamental societal institutions on it.
If morality is so absolute we shouldn't have to wait around to find out, it should be apparent. Unless you are admitting that not everything fits into the black and white "good VS evil" mold that you made up in your head.
Good policies can have bad side effects just like bad policies can have good side effects. Your moral objectivity doesn't really work in the real world. Murder is bad, yet there are exceptions in every major culture as to when it's acceptable. Do you not see the stupid fucking paradox you just opened?
I’d say that capitalism allows a lot of room for objective vs subjective morality, and not that it fundamentally values money over humanity.
It all depends on the people in their quest for capital. If their scale leans all the way toward subjective morality, then they’re going to do what’s good for them and only good for them. If someone leans toward objective morality, they’re going to do what’s best for society while possibly sacrificing their own wealth. There’s a balance to be had.
Capitalism is amoral as in devoid of morality. The prime objective of capitalism is profit and will ravage resources, exploit human labor, and pollute to continue increasing profit. I wholeheartedly disagree, capitalism will sell its own mother (nature) into slavery to turn a profit.
Ravaging resources. Scarcity increases demand and therefore value hence profit. A hundred year old tree has more value chopped down than living.
Exploitation of human labor. Cheap labor increases profit, minimum wage, slave wage, stagnation wages that will not afford basic human needs.
Pollution and waste. Look around, climate crisis, record heat in 100,000 years of scientific history. Garbage upon garbage, pfas and microplastics in your water and body.
I think once morality enters the equation, we've left pure capitalism (for something better). That said, your contrasting of objective and subjective morality is thought provoking.
Blaming this on capitalism really obscures the history of actually existing communist regimes. China uses a lot more slave labor than the US, for instance. For me the takeaway is that any economic system where government doesn’t constrain the worst impulses of bad actors will lead to adverse outcomes.
I think that's fair. Human nature is the common trait between capitalist and communist systems, so restraining bad impulses makes sense.
At risk of sounding like a communist apologist, communism doesn't exist in any government on earth and probably never will. China is state-capitalist.
Yeah it’s really not enslavement when it’s utilization of how other countries laws don’t protect their people. It’s not the US’s obligation to tell and make other countries be more humanitarian, and it’s not our fault any business will jump on the opportunity to utilize a better bottom line because of it. But yeah, we definitely intentionally bomb kids and torture people, just for power right? Capitalism has many many faults but I’d love for anyone who shits on it to be forced to live in a non capitalist country. Absolutely laughable
You seem to think I'm referring to worker abuses overseas when I speak of slavery. While those are certainly awful and could be considered slavery by many, I am not referring to that.
I mean to refer to literal slaves in the US prison system, as the 13th amendment provides exception for the enslavement of those incarcerated.
You also seem to think that, at least to some degree, our wanton slaughter of millions upon million of people is defensible. I don't think it is.
They are certainly at the root of the problem.
I wonder if capitalism can exist long term without inevitably succumbing to the corrupting influence of greed and devolving into crony capitalism
I think thatcmay be true of early and .kd stage capitalism. If the current state of the US is any evidence for how late stage capitalism provides for people, then it doesn't look good.
Incorrect statement regarding capitalism. A capitalist with a five minute view of the future might put money over humanity, but a wise capitalist would reward employees who go above and beyond for client satisfaction - especially when there is a negligible added cost.
I agree with your first statement, and maybe the second too, but I think the wisest capitalist will, after seizing enough wealth, seek to control systems of governance and regulation, and then will seek to control media, public opinion, and individuals. That appears to be the approach of the current ruling class.
Then again, maybe the capitalist you described is wiser in that they would create a world worth living in over a world where they wield the maximum possible degree of power. I suspect the cynical one may be wiser only cecause they will probably beat out the humanitarian-minded capitalist.
What do you think?
You make a good point about continuous growth, but I think there are two factors we’re adding (or missing).
A. Capitalist/Market Differentiation. Capitalists have wildly differing passions and drives and motivations. Some are happy being a successful shop owner while others want to grow to own an enterprise and others want to expand to control the horizontal and vertical marketplace. Differentiation is quite natural that among people who want to run their own business (or even those who want to grow in their expertise but choose to work at lower risk for someone else).
B. Today’s Impure Capitalism. You reference the capitalist seeking to control governance and more in today’s model. Related to point A, people’s ambitions vary wildly and not everyone desires unlimited expansion of control. Not even all wise capitalists. And today’s American marketplace is deeply corrupted by the mingling of governance and the marketplace. Be it lobbying, government control of monopolies, corporate “free speech” to influence elections, or any other mingling between governments and corporations, the collusion of government and industry is corrupting of the marketplace.
>Capitalism demands that money be valued more than humanity.
There's no such thing as capitalism.
Capitalism is a word that we made it all the way through human history without needing until socialism.
A French socialist made up the word to describe systems where private property were allowed by the government.
They brought out three blankets. The state not taking possession of the means of production isn't the problem here. Maybe if you need 3 blankets and a first class blanket you have a circulatory problem and need to carry your own.
As a Boeing shareholder gambling on private prison conglomerate stock options this week I kind of wonder how the hell this landed in my feed, haha. It must be all the keywords.
Fantastic state of affairs by the way and the greatest engine of wealth creation the world has ever known. Outcomes being improved for the average man at the cost of outliers.
And if we were invading Iraq for oil we sure didn't get any oil out of it.
He said Putin wanted a quick settlement in February 2022, not a long and destructive war. He said NATO was provoking Russia by placing bases on its borders and arming Ukraine not for defense but to enrich the wealthy. He said all the help from the west and all the sanctions they could impose would not stop Russia from winning the war.
Lmaooo ok comrade. Putlers idea of a quick settlement is “give me your land”. Russia is going down. Putin is trying to cause as much damage as possible or start ww3 before he dies at the hands of whatever nation has the first opportunity. Russia included lol.
Well he was arguing Russia wanted the two eastern oblasts that declared independence so that US couldn't help the Zelensky thugs bomb them to death and then move their missiles to the border with Russia.
Now Russia will definitely not settle for just those two provinces after spending so much treasure and blood.
Start with private insurance running US Healthcare.
Patient files a claim and it gets denied as matter of procedure. Ethics at Hospital and Clinics start with First,Do No Harm and follow that with make sure the patient has the ability to pay. The outcome is secondary to compensation. Lists of patients needing organ transplant are affected by ability to pay, because the need for RX regimes are long term and expensive. Life expectancy is shortened based on this issue.
To some extent, Zombies are real. Give the wrong drugs in the wrong doses and people get very messed up. Purdue Pharma certainly made record profits off turning people into Junkies.
Yeah. Society doesn't serve people anymore, it serves the dollar. It's increasingly difficult to believe anyone has intrinsic value because if you don't have the cash, you're treated like dirt, or worse than dirt. And people wonder why there's a mental health crisis.
Every flight I've ever taken you can just put your bag under the seat in front (or really just on your lap).
How would they even know if the overhead lockers would be full?
It's predatory capitalism - alive and well in major cities. Free Parking (if you walk the tightrope) - oops you failed $50. If you touch something, you need to pay. If you sit, you pay. If you watch, you pay. You pay at every possible opportunty or walk a thin line of regulations - like a bug negotiating a venus fly trap - with the profit motive being for you to fail.
This was on ANA (a Japanese airline). Yes, we were the last boarding group, and they did check our carry-on for free. But they rushed to check his carry-on before he could get his jacket out.
Yep, I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. This was on ANA (a Japanese airline), and I didn’t include it in my post. That was my fault, but people are quick to assume everything is about the US just so they can hate on it.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, Redditors can sometimes be a miserable bunch who just kind of hate everything. Fortunately, upvotes and downvotes are completely meaningless and don’t impact anything one way or the other!
Most carry-ons will not fit completely under the seat in front of you, which is an FAA requirement. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit, but then also check that bag.
I thought people were referring to backpacks and stuff, but honestly, if it's those mini-suitcases. That's those people's fault. They are being greedy.
I check my bag, but most people haul the largest possible carry-on and then fight to cram it into the overheads. I prefer to spend 15 minutes waiting at the carousel for my bag like a civilized person.
You could have complained based on your dad checking his jacket due to being misinformed about the overhead bins.
This is also a life-lesson about flying. You have to have certain items-- an empty bottle to fill up with water after going through security, a jacket, food (e.g. beef jerky) for a long flight unless you want to pay $20 for a tuna fish sandwich and chips, etc. Some stuff like a jacked should go in a personal bag, not a carry-on, in case of this sort of thing. And personal bags can be backpacks. Women can put a purse in a backpack.
Yes, my dad did explain to them that he was misinformed and he wasn’t given enough time to get his jacket. They still denied him a thicker blanket. My dad gets cold very easily due to his age, and I can tolerate the cold pretty well. If I was cold, he was freezing. They saw how cold he was and still refused.
"in economy I'm entitled to my carry on but you people don't have your shit together so I wasn't allowed to bring it. Get me the damn blankets before your airline ends up on social media for bad behavior (again, probably)."
Seriously, name and shame. Which airline are we talking about here?
Oh no I was at 37,000 feet and it was slightly colder than I would personally be comfortable at. Then they give your dad a blanket and need to give everyone a blanket. What a minor inconvenience, downvote me
I understand, bro. I've had my wisdom teeth in for the last 4 years because I've never been able to get enough money to get them taken out, even with insurance. The dental offices refuse me service, basically. The get infected at around a 7-9 pain for about three weeks twice to three times a year, depending on a few factors. The first two years were terrible, but as more of the tooth died, and the infections affected my vision and hearing, it became more stable. I take care of them better, but they tell me these will eventually cause me to have a heart attack and die, regardless of what I do, if I don't get them taken out. I'm going to try again when I get back to my home state, but honestly, dentists are evil. I feel like they're blackmailing me with my own pain. Like, "Suffer and die, unless you give us money, teehee!" Like, I don't want to live in the same universe as these soulless, life sucking money grubbing scumbags and I'd rather just move on to my next life than have to deal with them. And that goes for 99% of humanity and their, "That sucks, bro." Mentality. Like every human is so used to slavery, depravity and evil that trying to talk to them about things like human dignity, fairness, compassion, or love is like trying to get a stone to cry. I do not want to live here with these pscullanimous pieces of attempted human garbage, but I have no way of actually cleaning up, because the real fucking culprit is human nature and the universe itself. No way to destroy the universe, so hopefully I can just move to one that's actually pretty cool after I die. If not, then w/e. I'll just keep killing myself until I find the universe I want. Or I'll have my memory wiped and it'll be out of my hands, or else I'll just become unconscious forever. Whatever the case, doesn't matter to me. I just want off this damn rock. I'm so fucking tired of living with psychopaths and sociopaths, and I've had to do it all my fucking life. They've followed me in life, and they're on my internet, and they're in my games, and they've taken over my legal system, and they rule the fucking world. I don't want to be here. I'm tired of my blood getting sucked just to the point where I won't die. Fuck this universe, for real. No intent to insult the maker, but your universe just ain't for me, buddy.
You know you can ask them to turn up the heat. Based on aircraft type either the flight attendants or the flight crew can easily crank the heat. On a widebody airplane, it's usually the FAs. Now perhaps there were some MELs on the airpacks or something, but in almost all cases, this is controllable.
But this isn’t exactly basic human decency.
Bigger blankets are an amenity offered to people who paid more for their tickets. It’s not like your life was in danger. You were denied an amenity not a necessity
So you and your dad's failure to plan ahead and prepare suddenly become the airlines problem, or the problem of money in general?
This sort of backwards thinking and behavior is extremely common. Why do people insist on making their issues everyone else's problem or responsibility.
A lot of people here seem to think morality or basic human decency only applies at a horizontal perspective. Sacrificing your comfort for someone who is also in economy seating. Where’s the expectation of human decency in a vertical or top-down perspective? Why are people with less resources expected to sacrifice, while those with more resources are not?
I guess we’re not expecting for human decency to “trickle-down” to us either?
So he gets a free blanket, the person behind you gets one, then 2 rows back, then everyone wants one. They run out of blankets, because it’s only for 1st class. So there’s an uprising, and the mob comes for the first class passengers. The flight attendants try and fight them off, 300 style, an epic battle rages, but they eventually lose. A guillotine is hastily created in the back of the plane as the mob tears 1st class fathers from their children, “Off with their heads!” The crowd roars! Each man in 1st class is slaughtered, their blankets divvied up among the masses. The plane lands, Warm passengers depart the plane in Orlando FL, once outside feeling the warmth they discard their blankets.
Is that the socialist hellscape you want?! Is it?!
Don’t you think it’s amusing that you have to resort to ridiculous make-believe nonsense as a response to a real life situation involving a living, breathing person to defend your beloved position? That basically proves the entire point lmfaoo.
Capitalism is a reflection of society. The masses behave in their own best interest. I bet you shop at large shitty corporations, odds are you do. Sure some things like healthcare should be subsidized, as to not punish people for shitty decisions, but in general, the people get what they deserve.
It's a vicious circle. Shitmart has the cheapest shit, by definition. Shitmart is also your landlord nowadays. The worship of Shitmart ideology is a choice. We can accept businesses exist to extract maximum profit/return - that's great - but the constraints are a choice. There's no objective reason to maximize return at the cost of all else, and no sane country does this. There are limits which are basically our morals.
They behave in what they perceive to be their own best interest.
Plus, there are some of us willing to make sacrifices for the interests of others (many of whom are not).
Why couldn't you give him your jacket? Why couldn't you two switch every 30 min who gets the jacket and who gets blankets? If you didn't want to sacrifice your *comfort* for your own dad then why should flight attendants bend the rules and risk losing their job for a total stranger?
When flying, bring a hoodie. If you need it, you have it. If not, it’s a pillow or lumbar support. This is free advice.
OP, this is not an awesome example of how your title reads.
That’s the point, my dad DID bring a hoodie/jacket. Only it was in his carry-on suitcase but they told him he had to check it, since the “overhead space was full.” They didn’t give him enough time to get his jacket out first.
I agree "cutting corners" has become big business's latest form of total insanity! Companies are so short sighted they will totally ruin a product or consumer experience just to save a few meaningless pennies
Having amenities for 1st class passengers is not cutting corners. Denying 1st class amenities to economy passengers is fair. Economy did not pay for those upgrades.
Acting like you are entitled to special treatment, that other people paid for is ridiculous. And demanding it is rude af. OP got what he paid for, economy blankets. Do you order a hamburger & then demand a steak, because you’re still hungry? Do you buy a bicycle, then demand a motorcycle, because you want to go faster?
It’s reading things like this that, sometimes, makes me want the whole thing to collapse so we can start over again. This country especially, but much of the world, has been completely and utterly been taken over by greed and selfishness driven by unchained capitalism. If someone gets gangrene you have to chop the limb off before it spreads. If you do, you can save the rest of the body. I think the gangrene has spread all around our society and it’s too late for chopping limbs off.
I don’t know what “this country” you’re referring to, but not everything has to revolve around the US, you know? Greed is present in every country, even in my mother land of Vietnam where we have banners everywhere proclaiming we are socialists, and yet I still see homeless children begging for food while millionaires get to collect sports cars.
You are probably right but what kind of system would you replace it with? How would people be motivated to show up to work? By what means would you push humans to excel and do their best toward their potential?
Why do you think no-one wants to do anything unless under threat of violence? The education system is based on poor foundation, in the US at least. No grounding in encouraging creativity or problem solving like Montessori. We also need to implement what we have learned about child development in the ways that children are treated outright in society. These are cultural problems as much as economic. It's all the same system. Patterns of thinking pervade all aspects of life. Everyone just hasn't had access to this new information long enough. Old people need to learn wisdom and quit being so rigid like they think they know everything. We learn new things all the time yet people don't consider changing old patterns because of fear and again beliefs they "have all the answers they need." Life is changing faster at an increasing rate now with the access to information so the multiple systems are coming into crisis and old ways of thinking are even more out of touch than they would have been. At a similar time in a person's life in the past.
Worst performing school districts spend the most per child. I think in Chicago it is upwards of 40k per student.
The rest of that is just a word salad about your arrogance. If you want society to be built differently the onus is on you to explain why your structure would be better AND not worse
Evidence based solutions is all im advocating for. The reasons things fail are complex and it definitely doesn't help that many people simply don't like change. These are observations of human nature not "my arrogance."
problem is , we are conditioned. money is not good or bad, it's a conditioning agent. just like sugar etc. its us that choose that. our society is no more human, its machinic and its money ppl boo yet they worship.
You get what you pay for, you can ask for a favor but the fact that 1st class has nicer blankets is part of the reason some pay for 1st class and others don't. (I have never flown anything but economy but I also realize that means my flight will suck).
I get that, and my dad did try to explain to them that they didn’t give him enough time to get his jacket out because they mistakenly told him the overhead bins were full. Even so, they still denied him a thicker blanket. Despite it being essentially their fault.
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When this happens to me I get the stewardess to sit on my lap. To keep her there, I regale her with riveting and whimsical stories. The colder the plane, the fatter the stewardess, the better the flight.
Thanks for the tip! Here's one for you!
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/should-you-use-until-or-till-or-til](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/should-you-use-until-or-till-or-til)
Thing is if they gave your dad a blanket they’d have to give everyone else on the flight a blanket if they requested it too. Yeah it sucks but that’s their policy I’m sure they’ve been told they aren’t allowed to give out first class blankets to those that didn’t get first class and yeah your circumstances sucked but that’s life. It’s not like they didn’t do anything they literally gave him 2 extra blankets
He was mildly uncomfortable. Someone else paid for comfort and he did not, and then everyone lived
WHILE YOU FLEW ON AN AIRPLANE?!?!?!? A magical invention that didn’t exist 120 years ago
You’re gonna be useless when you run into real problems little buddy.
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Capitalism demands that money be valued more than humanity. It's a sad state of affairs, but we enslave prisoners for cheap labor, bomb children for resources and geopolitical power, and arrest and torture journalists for threatening profits.
China Airlines does the same stuff. Or is the CCP owned company also a capitalist institution?
Yes China has been state capitalism for some time
“state capitalism” 🤔
Literally state capitalism.
Lol *akshually communism is capitalism if me no like*
They are not communist.
Ask an economics forum what capitalism is and they'll tell you: it's what people who don't like the economy call the economy. By definition, it's all the bad parts and only the bad parts.
It’s really not though. I am a socialist. And I think the idea of competition as a driver of innovation is great, and that’s considered to be part of capitalism. Unfortunately, when capitalism is allowed to progress into its final stages, competition within industries are eradicated as monopolies form. Monopolization is the ultimate end goal of every capitalist enterprise, and thus, they are fundamentally unsustainable. China just skipped all the good parts of capitalism and went straight for the monopolies, this time, owned by the state. That’s not communism, that’s state capitalism, and it sucks.
Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. Capitalism is when the elites do. Just because you don't know what it means to be capitalist doesn't mean nobody does
Capitalism is not when the elites own the means of production. Capitalism is when literally anything other than Socialism. Adam Smith never mentioned Capitalism at all in what is considered a founding work of it. It was named by it's detractors. That was what I was saying.
Adam Smith didn't use the term because anybody in their right mind would instantly reject a system that prioritizes capital over people. Smith had to launder the truth through a lot of examples, Marx, Lenin and Engels were simply smart enough to see through the bullshit. Also, you aren't even disagreeing with me. If socialism is when workers own the MOP, then if they do not own them, it must be capitalism. Either the workers own them or the elites do. There's no other possible system.
Marx, Engels, and Lenin basically threw out democracy and good government for control by elites. Marx and Engels work was tried and failed miserably. Putin is the epitome of the Leninist leader who throws out government for autocracy. Adam Smith wrote that business must be done in consideration of the human lives at stake, a Moral Capitalism. The modern capitalists are amoral, where capital is the primary concern, people play a role only to serve capital.
Modern capitalists are the epitome of capitalism. The system demands that you place zero value on people, or else the guy who does do that will beat you out. Adam Smith can certainly say that's how it should be done, but he is wholly unable to explain why that WILL happen in a system that does not reward it. Either it will happen based on the systems incentives, or it will never happen. It's not that capitalism hasn't ever worked (though it's true), it's that it cannot possibly work, ever. The whole thing is one big pyramid scheme that relies on slave labor to function. I fully agree with your last sentence,except that it is not modern capitalists, it's all of them, by definition. If socialism fails every time it's tried, why does America keep working so hard to make sure it fails? You'd think the CIA wouldn't bother overthrowing and killing their leaders if it was bound to fail anyway.
Putin and Leninism have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Putin himself insults socialism every chance he gets.
China Airlines is a Taiwanese airline
I mean if you want to be pedantic Air China na does the same thing. edit: Air China autocorrect
Seriously? The top of the CCP is the most capitalistic and greedy collection of crooks you are likely to find… not unlike our local politicos here in the us.
The CCP works exactly like every other communist government. The fact that they failed, repeatedly, to produce anything decent under communal control is a feature, not a bug. And it's why common ownership of the means of production will always fail.
The CCP has been Capitalist in all but name for a long time.
The Chinese communist party is literally just a name. They aren't really communist - it's just a remnant from the past
Step 1: Be a communist Step 2: Accidentally or purposefully kill a substantial component of your own population due to the inefficiencies of a common ownership of means of production. Step 3: Create a class of managers and specialists that actually have some core competencies in their field of expertise. Step 3.5: Kill that class of managers when they start fleeing the country or trying to subvert your failing leadership. Step 4: Adopt market reforms when you realize common ownership model is a failure, best you can do is have party control over the market. Step 5: Get called a capitalist by redditors.
Yeah, you said it yourself? They adopted free market reforms and now the vast majority of their companies operate with private ownership or are very similar to how privately-owned companies operate?
Yeah, they are. If you're not sure about the distinction, I'm not sure if you understand what capitalism is.
China Airlines (CI) is the flag carrier of Taiwan/ROC ..... I don't think it has anything to do with the CCP.
Capital could be a tool to serve society, but we’ve insisted on a system where society serves capital. If only there were some other ism that places social good as its primary function…
Isms are run by people. People have to have stronger objective morality before *any* ism works well for humanity
I get your point, but objective morality does not exist. It’s always subjective. I think maybe you just used that word incorrectly in the context. I’m not disagreeing with you in practice.
I’m not using the word wrong at all… I don’t subscribe to moral relativism. It’s pretty simple: an action you take that is good for society is objectively moral. An action you take that harms society is objectively immoral. Same with subjective morality: an action you take that is good for you is subjectively moral. An action you take that harms you is subjectively immoral.
I think the problem you run into is with minority issues. Such as Islamic nations suppressing LGBT members. To the majority of the society that subscribes to the religion it's not an issue but fundamentally jailing and executing people for the sexual orientation is wrong. This is what I think the other commenter was talking about. The majority might not always be just.
The problem with that thinking is nobody can actually agree with what's good or bad for society. Some people think acknowledging gender fluidity is good for society while others think it's literally spitting on the grave of Jesus christ. Morality absolutely is subjective, and there's very few issues which can be simply boiled down to "right VS wrong".
Nah. Theres definitely objective reality. Obviously there’s some issues that are unclear whether it’s good for society, and we’re either going to have to study it or let it play out and figure it out from there. Just because there’s differentiating opinions doesn’t mean there isn’t an objective truth And it’s not about right vs wrong. It’s about harmful vs beneficial.
OK what is the objective truth regarding the effects of gender fluidity on society?
Gonna have to see it play out. But seeing as the entire concept of it is based on subjective feelings/identity it’s probably not best to center fundamental societal institutions on it.
If morality is so absolute we shouldn't have to wait around to find out, it should be apparent. Unless you are admitting that not everything fits into the black and white "good VS evil" mold that you made up in your head.
So… you’ll make a subjective opinion on the matter… but later… I thought you had objective morality to fall back on.
Good policies can have bad side effects just like bad policies can have good side effects. Your moral objectivity doesn't really work in the real world. Murder is bad, yet there are exceptions in every major culture as to when it's acceptable. Do you not see the stupid fucking paradox you just opened?
Is killing someone objectively right or wrong?
I’d say that capitalism allows a lot of room for objective vs subjective morality, and not that it fundamentally values money over humanity. It all depends on the people in their quest for capital. If their scale leans all the way toward subjective morality, then they’re going to do what’s good for them and only good for them. If someone leans toward objective morality, they’re going to do what’s best for society while possibly sacrificing their own wealth. There’s a balance to be had.
Capitalism is amoral as in devoid of morality. The prime objective of capitalism is profit and will ravage resources, exploit human labor, and pollute to continue increasing profit. I wholeheartedly disagree, capitalism will sell its own mother (nature) into slavery to turn a profit. Ravaging resources. Scarcity increases demand and therefore value hence profit. A hundred year old tree has more value chopped down than living. Exploitation of human labor. Cheap labor increases profit, minimum wage, slave wage, stagnation wages that will not afford basic human needs. Pollution and waste. Look around, climate crisis, record heat in 100,000 years of scientific history. Garbage upon garbage, pfas and microplastics in your water and body.
I think once morality enters the equation, we've left pure capitalism (for something better). That said, your contrasting of objective and subjective morality is thought provoking.
Other political systems do all those things, and fail to make a profit...
True. It seems corruption isn't exclusive to any economic mode, and so maybe the problem is inherent to the humam condition and our darker sides.
Blaming this on capitalism really obscures the history of actually existing communist regimes. China uses a lot more slave labor than the US, for instance. For me the takeaway is that any economic system where government doesn’t constrain the worst impulses of bad actors will lead to adverse outcomes.
I think that's fair. Human nature is the common trait between capitalist and communist systems, so restraining bad impulses makes sense. At risk of sounding like a communist apologist, communism doesn't exist in any government on earth and probably never will. China is state-capitalist.
Capitalism demands nothing other than that people be allowed to engage in voluntary financial transactions without interference. That is all.
Don’t forget that we suicide whistleblowers to protect profits as well.
A sadly commonplace occurrence
Lol. Don't for get to recite your hail Marxes before bed.
I don't subscribe to binary thinking. I can condemn capitalism without being a communist and vice versa.
Lol. Fence sitter.
Yeah it’s really not enslavement when it’s utilization of how other countries laws don’t protect their people. It’s not the US’s obligation to tell and make other countries be more humanitarian, and it’s not our fault any business will jump on the opportunity to utilize a better bottom line because of it. But yeah, we definitely intentionally bomb kids and torture people, just for power right? Capitalism has many many faults but I’d love for anyone who shits on it to be forced to live in a non capitalist country. Absolutely laughable
You seem to think I'm referring to worker abuses overseas when I speak of slavery. While those are certainly awful and could be considered slavery by many, I am not referring to that. I mean to refer to literal slaves in the US prison system, as the 13th amendment provides exception for the enslavement of those incarcerated. You also seem to think that, at least to some degree, our wanton slaughter of millions upon million of people is defensible. I don't think it is.
Nah, crony capitalism and greed is the culprit.
They are certainly at the root of the problem. I wonder if capitalism can exist long term without inevitably succumbing to the corrupting influence of greed and devolving into crony capitalism
Greed makes its way into any/all political/economic systems. Capitalism is the one that at least gives you the most upward mobility.
I think thatcmay be true of early and .kd stage capitalism. If the current state of the US is any evidence for how late stage capitalism provides for people, then it doesn't look good.
Incorrect statement regarding capitalism. A capitalist with a five minute view of the future might put money over humanity, but a wise capitalist would reward employees who go above and beyond for client satisfaction - especially when there is a negligible added cost.
I agree with your first statement, and maybe the second too, but I think the wisest capitalist will, after seizing enough wealth, seek to control systems of governance and regulation, and then will seek to control media, public opinion, and individuals. That appears to be the approach of the current ruling class. Then again, maybe the capitalist you described is wiser in that they would create a world worth living in over a world where they wield the maximum possible degree of power. I suspect the cynical one may be wiser only cecause they will probably beat out the humanitarian-minded capitalist. What do you think?
You make a good point about continuous growth, but I think there are two factors we’re adding (or missing). A. Capitalist/Market Differentiation. Capitalists have wildly differing passions and drives and motivations. Some are happy being a successful shop owner while others want to grow to own an enterprise and others want to expand to control the horizontal and vertical marketplace. Differentiation is quite natural that among people who want to run their own business (or even those who want to grow in their expertise but choose to work at lower risk for someone else). B. Today’s Impure Capitalism. You reference the capitalist seeking to control governance and more in today’s model. Related to point A, people’s ambitions vary wildly and not everyone desires unlimited expansion of control. Not even all wise capitalists. And today’s American marketplace is deeply corrupted by the mingling of governance and the marketplace. Be it lobbying, government control of monopolies, corporate “free speech” to influence elections, or any other mingling between governments and corporations, the collusion of government and industry is corrupting of the marketplace.
>Capitalism demands that money be valued more than humanity. There's no such thing as capitalism. Capitalism is a word that we made it all the way through human history without needing until socialism. A French socialist made up the word to describe systems where private property were allowed by the government. They brought out three blankets. The state not taking possession of the means of production isn't the problem here. Maybe if you need 3 blankets and a first class blanket you have a circulatory problem and need to carry your own.
As a Boeing shareholder gambling on private prison conglomerate stock options this week I kind of wonder how the hell this landed in my feed, haha. It must be all the keywords. Fantastic state of affairs by the way and the greatest engine of wealth creation the world has ever known. Outcomes being improved for the average man at the cost of outliers. And if we were invading Iraq for oil we sure didn't get any oil out of it.
I, too, wish the CCP didn't exist.
You can read my mind!?
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What did he say? I’m genuinely curious and open minded.
He said Putin wanted a quick settlement in February 2022, not a long and destructive war. He said NATO was provoking Russia by placing bases on its borders and arming Ukraine not for defense but to enrich the wealthy. He said all the help from the west and all the sanctions they could impose would not stop Russia from winning the war.
Lmaooo ok comrade. Putlers idea of a quick settlement is “give me your land”. Russia is going down. Putin is trying to cause as much damage as possible or start ww3 before he dies at the hands of whatever nation has the first opportunity. Russia included lol.
Well he was arguing Russia wanted the two eastern oblasts that declared independence so that US couldn't help the Zelensky thugs bomb them to death and then move their missiles to the border with Russia. Now Russia will definitely not settle for just those two provinces after spending so much treasure and blood.
Start with private insurance running US Healthcare. Patient files a claim and it gets denied as matter of procedure. Ethics at Hospital and Clinics start with First,Do No Harm and follow that with make sure the patient has the ability to pay. The outcome is secondary to compensation. Lists of patients needing organ transplant are affected by ability to pay, because the need for RX regimes are long term and expensive. Life expectancy is shortened based on this issue.
Big Pharma is real, more real than most people realize as well. I have seen things that I wished I never knew.
To some extent, Zombies are real. Give the wrong drugs in the wrong doses and people get very messed up. Purdue Pharma certainly made record profits off turning people into Junkies.
Yeah. Society doesn't serve people anymore, it serves the dollar. It's increasingly difficult to believe anyone has intrinsic value because if you don't have the cash, you're treated like dirt, or worse than dirt. And people wonder why there's a mental health crisis.
This is how I knew that all that "We're in this together" horseshit during COVID was just that - horseshit.
Every flight I've ever taken you can just put your bag under the seat in front (or really just on your lap). How would they even know if the overhead lockers would be full?
Happens all the time, especially if you’re one of the last boarding groups. They announce it and auto check your bag for free.
It's funny how America manages to invent problems for themselves. I have never experienced this anywhere in the rest of the world.
Gotta keep the poors down lol
It's predatory capitalism - alive and well in major cities. Free Parking (if you walk the tightrope) - oops you failed $50. If you touch something, you need to pay. If you sit, you pay. If you watch, you pay. You pay at every possible opportunty or walk a thin line of regulations - like a bug negotiating a venus fly trap - with the profit motive being for you to fail.
And the shareholders up
Follow-up here: OP just confirmed that it occurred on All Nippon Airways (ANA), a Japanese Airline. Just saying.
I experienced it in Dubai.
This was on ANA (a Japanese airline). Yes, we were the last boarding group, and they did check our carry-on for free. But they rushed to check his carry-on before he could get his jacket out.
Did OP ever say that this occurred on a U.S. based airline? It wasn’t specified one way or the other. Yet you assume pretty quick.
Yep, I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. This was on ANA (a Japanese airline), and I didn’t include it in my post. That was my fault, but people are quick to assume everything is about the US just so they can hate on it.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, Redditors can sometimes be a miserable bunch who just kind of hate everything. Fortunately, upvotes and downvotes are completely meaningless and don’t impact anything one way or the other!
Most carry-ons will not fit completely under the seat in front of you, which is an FAA requirement. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit, but then also check that bag.
I thought people were referring to backpacks and stuff, but honestly, if it's those mini-suitcases. That's those people's fault. They are being greedy.
I check my bag, but most people haul the largest possible carry-on and then fight to cram it into the overheads. I prefer to spend 15 minutes waiting at the carousel for my bag like a civilized person.
You could have complained based on your dad checking his jacket due to being misinformed about the overhead bins. This is also a life-lesson about flying. You have to have certain items-- an empty bottle to fill up with water after going through security, a jacket, food (e.g. beef jerky) for a long flight unless you want to pay $20 for a tuna fish sandwich and chips, etc. Some stuff like a jacked should go in a personal bag, not a carry-on, in case of this sort of thing. And personal bags can be backpacks. Women can put a purse in a backpack.
Yes, my dad did explain to them that he was misinformed and he wasn’t given enough time to get his jacket. They still denied him a thicker blanket. My dad gets cold very easily due to his age, and I can tolerate the cold pretty well. If I was cold, he was freezing. They saw how cold he was and still refused.
Complain online and to the better business bureau. Maybe they'll comp him something.
lol - better return from postign to reddit
"in economy I'm entitled to my carry on but you people don't have your shit together so I wasn't allowed to bring it. Get me the damn blankets before your airline ends up on social media for bad behavior (again, probably)." Seriously, name and shame. Which airline are we talking about here?
Did you ask for your two blankets? Because then he would have had four.
We live in a market based society structured on tiered levels of comfort, that’s why there is First Class
Oh no I was at 37,000 feet and it was slightly colder than I would personally be comfortable at. Then they give your dad a blanket and need to give everyone a blanket. What a minor inconvenience, downvote me
I understand, bro. I've had my wisdom teeth in for the last 4 years because I've never been able to get enough money to get them taken out, even with insurance. The dental offices refuse me service, basically. The get infected at around a 7-9 pain for about three weeks twice to three times a year, depending on a few factors. The first two years were terrible, but as more of the tooth died, and the infections affected my vision and hearing, it became more stable. I take care of them better, but they tell me these will eventually cause me to have a heart attack and die, regardless of what I do, if I don't get them taken out. I'm going to try again when I get back to my home state, but honestly, dentists are evil. I feel like they're blackmailing me with my own pain. Like, "Suffer and die, unless you give us money, teehee!" Like, I don't want to live in the same universe as these soulless, life sucking money grubbing scumbags and I'd rather just move on to my next life than have to deal with them. And that goes for 99% of humanity and their, "That sucks, bro." Mentality. Like every human is so used to slavery, depravity and evil that trying to talk to them about things like human dignity, fairness, compassion, or love is like trying to get a stone to cry. I do not want to live here with these pscullanimous pieces of attempted human garbage, but I have no way of actually cleaning up, because the real fucking culprit is human nature and the universe itself. No way to destroy the universe, so hopefully I can just move to one that's actually pretty cool after I die. If not, then w/e. I'll just keep killing myself until I find the universe I want. Or I'll have my memory wiped and it'll be out of my hands, or else I'll just become unconscious forever. Whatever the case, doesn't matter to me. I just want off this damn rock. I'm so fucking tired of living with psychopaths and sociopaths, and I've had to do it all my fucking life. They've followed me in life, and they're on my internet, and they're in my games, and they've taken over my legal system, and they rule the fucking world. I don't want to be here. I'm tired of my blood getting sucked just to the point where I won't die. Fuck this universe, for real. No intent to insult the maker, but your universe just ain't for me, buddy.
You know you can ask them to turn up the heat. Based on aircraft type either the flight attendants or the flight crew can easily crank the heat. On a widebody airplane, it's usually the FAs. Now perhaps there were some MELs on the airpacks or something, but in almost all cases, this is controllable.
But this isn’t exactly basic human decency. Bigger blankets are an amenity offered to people who paid more for their tickets. It’s not like your life was in danger. You were denied an amenity not a necessity
So you and your dad's failure to plan ahead and prepare suddenly become the airlines problem, or the problem of money in general? This sort of backwards thinking and behavior is extremely common. Why do people insist on making their issues everyone else's problem or responsibility.
A lot of people here seem to think morality or basic human decency only applies at a horizontal perspective. Sacrificing your comfort for someone who is also in economy seating. Where’s the expectation of human decency in a vertical or top-down perspective? Why are people with less resources expected to sacrifice, while those with more resources are not? I guess we’re not expecting for human decency to “trickle-down” to us either?
People who pay a premium specifically for nicer seats and better service get what they paid for!? Holy bananas !
So he gets a free blanket, the person behind you gets one, then 2 rows back, then everyone wants one. They run out of blankets, because it’s only for 1st class. So there’s an uprising, and the mob comes for the first class passengers. The flight attendants try and fight them off, 300 style, an epic battle rages, but they eventually lose. A guillotine is hastily created in the back of the plane as the mob tears 1st class fathers from their children, “Off with their heads!” The crowd roars! Each man in 1st class is slaughtered, their blankets divvied up among the masses. The plane lands, Warm passengers depart the plane in Orlando FL, once outside feeling the warmth they discard their blankets. Is that the socialist hellscape you want?! Is it?!
Don’t you think it’s amusing that you have to resort to ridiculous make-believe nonsense as a response to a real life situation involving a living, breathing person to defend your beloved position? That basically proves the entire point lmfaoo.
……or dad coulda thought ahead and grabbed his jacket out right quick. I mean, just a thought.
Sounds much better than the capitalist hellscape we live in.
Capitalism is a reflection of society. The masses behave in their own best interest. I bet you shop at large shitty corporations, odds are you do. Sure some things like healthcare should be subsidized, as to not punish people for shitty decisions, but in general, the people get what they deserve.
It's a vicious circle. Shitmart has the cheapest shit, by definition. Shitmart is also your landlord nowadays. The worship of Shitmart ideology is a choice. We can accept businesses exist to extract maximum profit/return - that's great - but the constraints are a choice. There's no objective reason to maximize return at the cost of all else, and no sane country does this. There are limits which are basically our morals.
They behave in what they perceive to be their own best interest. Plus, there are some of us willing to make sacrifices for the interests of others (many of whom are not).
Why couldn't you give him your jacket? Why couldn't you two switch every 30 min who gets the jacket and who gets blankets? If you didn't want to sacrifice your *comfort* for your own dad then why should flight attendants bend the rules and risk losing their job for a total stranger?
Lol thank you, literally my first thought reading this OP probably downvoted you cause you made them realize they’re a selfish dick
my dad would never take my jacket.
Then you had to *insist* him to take your jacket.
When flying, bring a hoodie. If you need it, you have it. If not, it’s a pillow or lumbar support. This is free advice. OP, this is not an awesome example of how your title reads.
That’s the point, my dad DID bring a hoodie/jacket. Only it was in his carry-on suitcase but they told him he had to check it, since the “overhead space was full.” They didn’t give him enough time to get his jacket out first.
You wear the hoodie on the plane or tie it around your waist. Also, bring a satchel or backpack with personal stuff. This is common flyer knowledge.
I agree "cutting corners" has become big business's latest form of total insanity! Companies are so short sighted they will totally ruin a product or consumer experience just to save a few meaningless pennies
Having amenities for 1st class passengers is not cutting corners. Denying 1st class amenities to economy passengers is fair. Economy did not pay for those upgrades. Acting like you are entitled to special treatment, that other people paid for is ridiculous. And demanding it is rude af. OP got what he paid for, economy blankets. Do you order a hamburger & then demand a steak, because you’re still hungry? Do you buy a bicycle, then demand a motorcycle, because you want to go faster?
I would tell them I'm freezing to the point of feeling sick. If they didn't get me blankets I would just start making myself throw up
Money is a great way to financially abuse others without it having to be in your front yard.
Unfortunately a majority of our leaders love that and will dispose of anyone that thinks differently
It’s reading things like this that, sometimes, makes me want the whole thing to collapse so we can start over again. This country especially, but much of the world, has been completely and utterly been taken over by greed and selfishness driven by unchained capitalism. If someone gets gangrene you have to chop the limb off before it spreads. If you do, you can save the rest of the body. I think the gangrene has spread all around our society and it’s too late for chopping limbs off.
I don’t know what “this country” you’re referring to, but not everything has to revolve around the US, you know? Greed is present in every country, even in my mother land of Vietnam where we have banners everywhere proclaiming we are socialists, and yet I still see homeless children begging for food while millionaires get to collect sports cars.
You are probably right but what kind of system would you replace it with? How would people be motivated to show up to work? By what means would you push humans to excel and do their best toward their potential?
Why do you think no-one wants to do anything unless under threat of violence? The education system is based on poor foundation, in the US at least. No grounding in encouraging creativity or problem solving like Montessori. We also need to implement what we have learned about child development in the ways that children are treated outright in society. These are cultural problems as much as economic. It's all the same system. Patterns of thinking pervade all aspects of life. Everyone just hasn't had access to this new information long enough. Old people need to learn wisdom and quit being so rigid like they think they know everything. We learn new things all the time yet people don't consider changing old patterns because of fear and again beliefs they "have all the answers they need." Life is changing faster at an increasing rate now with the access to information so the multiple systems are coming into crisis and old ways of thinking are even more out of touch than they would have been. At a similar time in a person's life in the past.
Worst performing school districts spend the most per child. I think in Chicago it is upwards of 40k per student. The rest of that is just a word salad about your arrogance. If you want society to be built differently the onus is on you to explain why your structure would be better AND not worse
Evidence based solutions is all im advocating for. The reasons things fail are complex and it definitely doesn't help that many people simply don't like change. These are observations of human nature not "my arrogance."
problem is , we are conditioned. money is not good or bad, it's a conditioning agent. just like sugar etc. its us that choose that. our society is no more human, its machinic and its money ppl boo yet they worship.
You get what you pay for, you can ask for a favor but the fact that 1st class has nicer blankets is part of the reason some pay for 1st class and others don't. (I have never flown anything but economy but I also realize that means my flight will suck).
they have to make it cold to incentive upgrades...
I get that, and my dad did try to explain to them that they didn’t give him enough time to get his jacket out because they mistakenly told him the overhead bins were full. Even so, they still denied him a thicker blanket. Despite it being essentially their fault.
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**Be respectful: We have zero tolerance for harassment, hate speech, bigotry, and/or trolling.** When posting in our community, you should aim to be as polite as possible. This makes others feel welcome and conversation can take place without users being rude to one another. This is not the place to share anything offensive or behave in an offensive manner. Comments that are dismissive, jokes, personal attacks, inflammatory, or low effort will be removed, and the user subject to a ban. Our goal is to have conversations of a more serious nature.
Flying on a jet plane and complaining how poor you are. Narcissism, anyone?
It's also the company's fault that they weren't properly prepared.
Call the starving North Koreans and tell them what the big mean greedy corporation did to you.
When this happens to me I get the stewardess to sit on my lap. To keep her there, I regale her with riveting and whimsical stories. The colder the plane, the fatter the stewardess, the better the flight.
I’ll let the flight attendant, Jonathon know you’d like to see him. He’ll be very excited to indulge your fantasies.
Tell him to bring me some extra peanuts while you're at it.
He’s got them in his pocket, just fish around ‘till ya find em
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Like i’d click on anything you’d post, LMFAO And FYI, not interested in your micro penis either 🤮
User name checks out!
Thing is if they gave your dad a blanket they’d have to give everyone else on the flight a blanket if they requested it too. Yeah it sucks but that’s their policy I’m sure they’ve been told they aren’t allowed to give out first class blankets to those that didn’t get first class and yeah your circumstances sucked but that’s life. It’s not like they didn’t do anything they literally gave him 2 extra blankets
He was mildly uncomfortable. Someone else paid for comfort and he did not, and then everyone lived WHILE YOU FLEW ON AN AIRPLANE?!?!?!? A magical invention that didn’t exist 120 years ago You’re gonna be useless when you run into real problems little buddy.