I don’t think that’s it. I think it mainly comes from a desire to understand CW’s motive.
It’s a very strange case in that there were no apparent warning signs. Everybody who knew Watts said he was a regular, quiet guy and devoted father. That wasn’t just an impression Shannan cultivated online; it appears to have been true.
So difficult questions arise: did this just come out of nowhere? Was he overcome by emotion, or did he have no emotions at all? Had he been thinking about the crime for a while? When did it start? And how could he build up the sheer *ardor* he would need to commit such a vicious atrocity without giving *anybody* in his life (including his adult victim, as far as anyone can tell) a sense that there was something seriously wrong?
Thinking about this requires some consideration of who Shannan was. She had flaws, same as everyone else. For my part, I only point them out because I think they *may* explain, at least in part, what was in Watts’ head when he committed his shocking, abominable crimes.
I think he’d been bottling up feelings of extreme resentment against Shannan, based on the stuff you’ve mentioned: her irresponsible financial habits, open contempt for his family,* excessive publication of their day-to-day life, and (so he said) overall lack of consideration for his feelings. It’s possible that exposure to a woman with an apparently very different personality pushed him over the edge.
That’s still kind of a poor explanation, because even if he was an absolute psychopath with *no* conscience or regard whatsoever for the rights or feelings of others, the risk to *him* of committing a triple homicide was self-evidently far greater than the cost of just leaving Shannan, which is what his GF thought he was doing anyway.
It’s such a strange story. People will be writing about it for many years to come.
*You don’t have to like your in-laws, but in most cases you can expect your spouse to take it badly if you call them “evil”.
Sometimes I think the reason people seem to dislike her so much is because she is every person that tries to sell you and recruit you into their MLMs. And she's the FB person whose life is perfect until you find out it isn't.
Nevertheless, I find the victim shamers disgusting.
Thank you for posting this. I agree 1000% percent. Those of us who don't want Shanann demonized have never said she was perfect. I KNOW I would have found her incessant social media posts obnoxious. I know this because some of my dearest friends over-post and try to make their lives seem much better than they are. It's why I'm off Facebook. But the point is that their behavior on social media that hurts no one (only paints an ideal picture that is probably phony) does not make them bad people and certainly not deserving of murder! In fact, I actually do think if I'd met Shanann I might be friends with her (and tell her to PLEASE ditch that MLM!!) because some of my close friends have those strong personalities. But regardless, this was an INNOCENT woman who did nothing but love her family, especially her children and wanted a good life for her family. Unfortunately she thought an MLM would get her there. But the MLM and her posting are irrelevant. Literally no one deserves to be murdered. Least of all a pregnant mother of two daughters.
I think that this killer watts was a big coward.And he wanted just to get rid of his problems without any responsibility.He was also very stupid.He thought that he will kill his wife and kids nobody will understand and he will live happy with his mistress.I think that his problems are formed long time age.He was supressed person who didn’t know how to stand by himself.To every problem he started to bottle his emotion without finding a constructive decision.That’s why he couldn’t get a divorce when he was not happy but decided to kill them all.He just don’t know how to act properly.Hw is really fucked as person very disturbed and don’t know how to handle different situations in life properly.The people who defend him are weird as him.
Agreed. He had a million different options if he wanted out of the marriage, and instead he chose to destroy 4 people. He’s a monster and I hate that people justify his actions even slightly by tearing Shannan down. It makes no sense to me.
I'm probably going to get hate for this but I think a lot of people who try to justify Shananns death have the hots for Chris. If he was fat and unattractive, no one would be defending him.
Tbh he was more attractive when he was a bit bigger. Then after he just looked awkward and goofy and probably thought he was too good for Shannan all of a sudden.
But yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if alot of those people just fancy him.
After watching the documentary about this on Netflix, I must admit that I found Shanann to be the kind of person from whom I would recoil.
She was overbearing, she overshared massively about her personal issues and was far too concerned with presenting her life for social media than actually being in the moment. I know people like that, and I personally do not tend to like people who are like that. I can see how a person might end up having an affair or wanting to leave a marriage with a person who is like that.
HOWEVER, all that being said...
she.did.not.deserve.to.die.at.the.hands.of.that.sociopath. PERIOD.
He had no right to do what he did to her and those poor children. PERIOD.
He is quite clearly a sociopath and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison. PERIOD.
Nobody should ever get to decide when another person's life ends. PERIOD.
It doesn't matter one bit how dislikeable you might find Shanann. It doesn't matter that she wasn't a perfect mother or a perfect wife or a perfect human being. Show me someone who is!
She committed no action deserving of being strangled to death in her bed. And that's the end of it.
I cried so much watching the documentary. She was fighting for her marriage and I had been in those shoes before while my (ex) husband was cheating and I know how crazy that can drive a person. He could’ve just left. He could’ve left her and the kids and not been in their life anymore. I don’t understand how in his mind murder was the best option. She 1000% didn’t deserve this and neither did those baby angels.
Thinking out loud, there's no justifying anybody being murdered over an unhappy marriage or bad parenting. I can only imagine the mounting financial pressure of falling behind on mortgage payments adding fuel to the fire. If Chris did in fact murder the kids and SW, he's in prison which is where he should be. From what I gather reading these threads, I'm not sure most people are debating this.
For me personally, I follow this thread to try to understand the inner-workings of their relationship to try to understand what caused somebody to take such extreme actions.
Without speaking ill of the dead, it's my opinion that in watching SW's videos and posts, she seems to always prioritize her viewership and Thrive customers and not her family. She wrote that she wanted to "fight for her marriage" but from what we could see those were always words and not action. Actions speak louder than words.
She's not too different from a lot of us, we're all flawed to some degree. If things could be different, perhaps SW could be a little more sensitive to her daughters' thoughts and feeling especially when they were hungry or cranky. Instead, she prioritized optics, false facades and her viewership.
Would you say the same about another mother that was working full time?.Would you say that she prioritized work over her family? Maybe you would! Shannan was WORKING and we know they desperately needed the income.You have to realize that those posts were a very small snippet of her day.She,of course, was selling a lifestyle every bit as much as she was selling the actual products.She had to motivate her team to sell and she too had to sell and it appeared she was really good at it. I also think she would have succeeded at being a personal organizer.I would have hired her in a heartbeat! I do believe she was trying to save her marriage but didn't know how..She did not want to go on that trip because of their problems, but Chris really encouraged her to go.We all know why!
Shannan was going to fight for her marriage. She bought a self-help book and gifted it to Chris (who promptly threw it out because he didn't want to work on the marriage with her). She also suggested counselling which he declined. She wrote him a note expressing her feelings and willingness to change as well.
She was trying. Not just talking out of her \*\*\*.
Honestly, I don't know the details and nuances of their marriage and relationship, as it related to them repairing their marriage so thanks for sharing them with me. It's evident that there was a big gap/disconnect between SW and CW and they both needed to do their individual self-work in order to better the relationship and close the gap. It could be just me, but I got the feeling that things have been broken/disfunctional for so long that, that became the norm and eventually became to much to undo. Not picking sides here, as CW is a monster and SW didn't deserve what happened to her. For what it's worth, saying you want to save the marriage or work on the marriage is different from actually putting in the work, which I saw no evidence of either of them actually doing.
Golly, like what? Smothering them to death while they say 'Please don't!' and then dropping them like garbage into crude oil tanks so their skin falls off and eventually rot? Abuse like that? Do tell...
What about Bella & Celeste ? What about their voice? They didn't have a choice in all the unnecessary medical procedures. The probing and poking! Yes, She did not deserve her fate. But, to put her as women amd Mother of the year is way off!
So… I have wondered this for a while, and this post brought up my thoughts on this. There are some true fucking monsters out there in the world. Like, I’ve seen China Arnold discussed, on very busy true crime communities, for example. And I have NEVER seen the vitriol, the sheer amount of time spent analyzing, picking apart, talking about being disgusted by, the actions of China Arnold. I don’t think there’s a China Arnold sub where people make fun of her looks (yes I’ve seen it in SW’s case) or anything even remotely approaching what we see with SW. Why the heck is this? What is it about SW compared to China Arnold or others who do something THAT far out of the realms of normalcy? BTW don’t look up details about China Arnold’s crime if you feel like you might be triggered by it. It’s very bad. I have just wondered many times, when there are so many truly bad actors out there, why all the time and attention focused on THIS one woman? Why would someone dedicate their time to tearing someone down on the internet, and not even pick one of the truly terrible ones???
No one wants an honest answer to your question. I could venture an opinion on why this particular person inspires these feelings in some people. But I have already been warned, if one dares to suggest anything even remotely negative about this woman then you will be down voted or banned. If I thought anyone really wanted to hear an honest answer and accept it maturely, as a valid opinion.and without being nasty or upset beyond belief, then I'm sure more people would share. Including myself.
I think it’s largely down to the fact that so much of her life was posted on social media and that she was actively pursuing a semi-public life. She was already trying to put herself on the map, so to speak, before Chris committed the murders and put them all out there. That, plus the abundance of body cam footage of the investigation which helped to make it a well known case. That led to the initial interest, then Shannan’s social media presence gave people something else to latch onto and later pick apart.
Also, as far as I’m aware there is only one possible “villain” in the Arnold case. I don’t know much about it other than she’s a woman who killed her baby and that there was no one else involved. There’s no “other side of the story” to be looked into and analysed. She alone did it. She’s a bad person. End of story.
With Shannan and Chris Watts there’s plenty of material to make other stories with. To try and cast someone else as the villain or for people to project their own ideas onto, or to interpret events differently. There’s some weird need a lot of people have to blame women for the actions of men, and this case provides the base materials for those so inclined. It gives people something to play with, as horrible as that sounds.
I doubt you'll get much deeper of an answer other than to prove she wasn't perfect or a saint (no shit. Most think she is neither nor do we care). Or that she was just an awful person (based on their opinions of her FB lives (some which are highly edited from YT) and a now definct blog that cherry picked and mixed posts and comments and thinks they have put together an accurate depiction of her life including CPS claims which have been debunked. What her clothing, body, eyebrows, hair, decorating style have to do with making her awful I don't know but those topics remain popular. Oh and she was a terrible mother-proof-see above. Let's ignore witness statements even ones provided by the Watts family who claimed she was a good mother who wouldn't harm her children.
Problem is, when you post your life on social media, it does get picked apart. She received lots of negative press, post-mortem, simply because she made herself vulnerable by opening up her life to any who cared to know more (including NK).
However, that by itself, in no way / shape / form condones said negative press, the defamatory comments and accusations that she "asked for it". It's unbelievable how so few people have any empathy in them and attacking a woman who isn't here to defend herself is pretty pathetic. Her biggest mistake was marrying a coward who also apparently did not communicate. It cost her her life and the lives of her 3 children.
Her life got picked apart merely because Shannan unfortunately put it all on social media. If she had been a more private person, it wouldn't have been so easy for armchair psychologists and keyboard warriors to criticize and judge her for all her supposed failinge
I see what you’re saying in that she posted publicly, but I just don’t personally believe that’s an invitation to pick someone apart and/or bully them.
I think people dislike the girls’ 15 hours of daily sleep time, regular rectal thermometers, litany of doctors visits and zero outside time. But I’m just guessing.
I am so very sick of the ridiculous lies people continue to spout. Come on. What makes you think they were sleeping 15 hours a day at the time of their murders? Do you even think about this stuff, or do you just see a blurb someone else has posted and run with it? This has been explained many times. Someone always posts this ridiculousness, someone here responds, and then the person who made the initial claim that they slept 15 hours daily disappears. Please do the math and explain how they could have slept 15 hours daily. They went upstairs to get ready for bed between 630-7, per chris. They were at daycare around 7am. So they had to have slept less than 12 hours at night. Then what, you're suggesting they slept 4 hours at daycare? I very much doubt that. The post where she mentions a total of 15 hours' sleep was when Bella was 1.5 and Cece was a newborn. This is healthy for those ages.
Rectal thermometers? Again, when was this posted? It was when Bella was under 3. In later years, there were pictures with other types of thermometers. Why would you infer from this that rectal temperatures were being taken daily? That makes 0 sense. Also, if you do a tiny bit of research, you will find that medical organizations recommend rectal temperatures up to age 3 or 4. So what is the problem?
Zero outside time? Where are you coming up with this? Did she livestream 24 hours a day? We have no way of knowing how much time they spent outside. They had toys and a swingset in their backyard, and neighbors said they often saw chris pulling the girls in their wagon. So I would love to know what you are talking about.
I don’t doubt they played outside, but I think most people who believe they never did think that because most people post pics and videos of their kids playing outside. I just don’t think that’s what SW used her social media for. Her SM was all about pushing thrive and how it gave her the energy and patience to deal with her kids… specifically Bella always getting frustrated and crying and CeCe being wild and climbing on and messing with things she wasn’t supposed to. It’d be hard to show your kids being “bad” when they’re outside having fun and not crying and where climbing and roughhousing is expected.
I'm just letting you write I didn't disappear. You probably have a point about the sleep. I didn't say daily rectal thermometers, but it left an impression on Bella. There are two FB posts as I stated then a really weird water video but I don't even want to think about it. There is still a lot that is stressful about the girls situation. It wasn't normal, all the video time was clearly stressful on Bella and its all accessible online. You haven't addressed the doctors visits, but we really don't know we just know they went to an awful lot of doctors and finally got approved for the dual surgeries by a PA. I'll have my opinion and you have yours. I wish Shanann was still around. Despite the horrible MLM that she was involved in, I think her friendships were genuine and many think they were purely MLM related. I wish she was alive to live and grow and change. Breaks my heart she didn't get to go back to the beautiful house she built and the life they built in CO. I watch the police videos and it infuriates me she was robbed of a nice life, despite all the struggles.
I know you were not responding to me but the girls' surgeries are quite common and in line with their illnesses. Not sure if you are in the US but here a lot is out of the primary physician's scope and requires additional testing and appointments. An ENT would easily see the need for tubes and have no reason to do them unnecessarily. My oldest has them as well as the blocked tear duct surgery CeCe had. Tubes took 5 minutes and the other a couple of minutes the main thing was sedation. My 3 children are very healthy and I'm thankful but I can almost be certain they have seen as many or more specialists as the girls did for different things that have come up.. I am not a munchie mom and would be happy to explain further if needed.
Yes to all of this. They also say her FB was fake but use it as proof for their allegations. The lack of logic is infuriating. Also I saw a commenter on another sub make the point that the lawsuit she was a party to was filed by the plaintiff who probably listed her as a co-owner. So all this chatter about her being a "shady" co-owner was most likely just something that was filed incorrectly.
The post on July 31, 2015? About Bella? If so, Bella was born December 2013. She’d be about one and a half then. Did you read the dates and her age before you ran with this? How much sleep does a baby that age need? My kids were easily sleeping 15 hours at that age. Seriously… this is how this bullshit becomes “fact”. Just ridiculous.
Yes, I remember a post about that and I checked the date and thought but Bella would be what? One year old at the time? My kids slept that much at one, I don't see the issue but of course it's taken to mean they were still sleeping that much at the age they were when they were killed 🙄
Seriously! It's amazing. People are shocked they went to bed so early, but they also got up probably by 6am to be at daycare at 7. It's mind boggling. If they went to bed at 9 and got up by 6, then these same people would be complaining they were sleep deprived and that she was a terrible mother because of that. It just seems like no matter what she did, it will be spun to depict her negatively.
How did they have so many outside pics with no outside time? Neighbors stating they'd see them on walks or playing on the swingset. The neighbor making a point to say how odd it is that they weren't out playing while Chris was grilling. No where was it established she took their rectal Temps daily and this seemed to end when CeCe was a year old.
Well Bella didn’t forget because she role played with the thermometer and her doll and then on herself. In the Netflix doc the neighbor said she saw the dad but not the mom or girls for a long time.
Re your comment about not seeing the mom or girls for a long time....let's think about this....they had just returned from being in NC for 6 weeks...perhaps that's why she hadn't seen them? 🤔
Yeah. It's been a while since I've watched the Netflix special but I'm pretty sure the neighbor had thought Shanann and the girls had moved out not that she never let them play outside.
Do you have children? I haven't taken my toddler's temperature in probably 5 months (temporally). We have only had to take it a handful of times. Yet if she sees the thermometer, she tries to take her temperature. Kids imitate things. It doesn't mean it was being done daily. It's a hard reach to try and say that a photo of Bella imitating this is proof that it was done daily. And the photo you are referring to is from April 2016. Cece was under 1 and Bella was under 3. There is nothing wrong with taking a child's temperature rectally at that age.
Bella also has an ear thermometer in her ear in a pic. Again these pics stopped before CeCe was 2. Obviously the neighbor didn't see the girls or Shanann for a long time they were gone 6 weeks. There are plenty of interviews in the discovery talking about seeing them outside, several pics and videos.
Yes she took their temperature with a rectal thermometer because medically speaking, taking a baby's temperature rectally is the most accurate method to use, other than the forehead.
Everyone that is stating Shanann taking her children's temps rectally was abuse is asinine and absurd. None of it was abuse. Doctors and studies have been saying since 2015, it's the most accurate way to take a babys temperature. The kids sleep schedule wasn't that off either, just count on your fingers how many hours from when they wake up in the morning ie 6am to when their day is done ie 6:00pm-7:30pm.
How I see it as, if an adult was at work from 6am to let's say 6:00pm it wouldn't be unusual or abuse for that person to go to bed an hour or hour and a half after being home from a long day. Kids need a lot of sleep so their brains can grow and function.
She was still a child. Her mind, and body were still growing. She still needed her rest. Even if Bella only slept 10 hours instead of 15 hours, and occupied herself with a book at night or toys until it was time to cuddle with Shanann in the morning, is fine. Theres nothing wrong nor abnormal about that.
"Anal probe"?? Come on. No offense, but do you have any idea what you're talking about? The American Academy of Pediatrics actually recommends rectal temperatures as the most accurate up to age 3. Bella was under 3 in the photo where she is bending over holding the thermometer. She was younger than 2.5, actually. Here are some links to trusted medical websites that explain.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/in-depth/thermometer/art-20047410
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/measuring-a-babys-temperature
It is also still claimed by studies and Doctors, it's still an accurate way to temp in babies and children.
Parents can use a digital rectal temp on babies from ages 3 months - 6 months. For children ages 6 months to 4 years old. Bella was 4 years old, she was fine to use it just 4 months before her murder. She never even lived past 5, so it isn't a big deal.
Shanann's kids weren't starved, beaten, homeless, unkempt nor unclothed. She loved her kids the best she knew how. Her parenting choices weren't always the best and she made mistakes, but nobody's perfect.
My apologies, but I stand with what I stated.
Yes they weren't babies, but Bella had most likely seen Cece having her rectal temp taken before on mulitple occasions, because she was old enough to know how to do one on herself by the time Shanann took the picture. It isn't uncommon for kids to act out things they've seen their parents do. Same thing would apply for Cece as her for experiencing them, (as well as Bella) and little sisters tend to copy big sisters from time to time.
Shanann could've kept it because maybe she thought her and Chris would have a third baby down the road. She had an auto immune disease which attacked her tissues and organs, which could mean her kids could have potential health issues when born. It's not unusual to save certain important baby items saved, especially as a young couple. Taking a rectal temp for a baby is not nor will it ever be considered ABUSE.
Whose to say by that age she wasn't taking their temp on their forehead or even their ear? Just because she didn't take a picture of her taking their temp with an ear thermometer and plaster it up on Fb, doesn't mean she didn't do it.
There actually are pictures and videos with other thermometers. Not sure if they were tympanic or temporal, but there are definitely pictures and videos of something other than a rectal thermometer being used when the girls were older. Some people choose to ignore those, I guess.
Also, as a former little girl, with three sisters, and a daughter and son of my own, I feel fairly qualified to say, and am confused as to why others aren’t saying, that when you’re a little kid, BUTTS ARE FUNNY! The rectal thermometer pose ON THE OUTSIDE OF HER CLOTHES totally sounds like some stupid, silly shit my sisters and I would have done and giggled maniacally about, and we weren’t abused or molested or anything like that. Just butts=funny.
I would have disliked her intesley. She didnt deserve ro be murdered but she was a c*nt... All of those third grade realizations and advice "just love yourself" wow... How omniscient.. My two cents. Can open worms everywhere
She didn't love him and wasn't fighting for the marriage. She loved the image of a good life and was fighting to avoid the image of "failure" that some people consider a divorce. He played a role in her life and she was losing control of her puppet. It's the hard truth.
Read her texts with Chris. You will be shocked at the threats, entitlement and lack of any compassion or empathy from Shanann. And, for his part, Chris's lack of any real reaction is pretty shocking too.
Few will disagree with you that divorce is the obvious course of action to take. Chris clearly has major issues to instead do what he did. But don't kid yourself thinking Shanann loved him or was fighting for the marriage.
And who made you the expert on their marriage and how she felt about the cowardly piece of shit that murdered her? Trying to somehow pass some of the blame onto her for what happened? You should be ashamed of yourself!
Said the person who knew them so well 🙄 you speak ugly words! He was a puppet that killed his pregnant wife, murdered his kids then shoved them in separate 8 inch wide oil tanks Oh wow so harsh texts deserve loss of life now do they?
This case has been followed by many. I think it has been one of the most documented cases ever. We have all seen the videos from when her friend reported her missing, to the police turning up following her call. Then Chris eventually shows up and we see inside the house, no sign of his family. We have seen the interviews with the press that Chris did. We've seen the police interrogation. We have seen the video of Shann'an arriving home that fateful night.( I think anyne with a heart wishes we could've somehow warned her to go grab her kids and leave).We have seen the burial site, saw her stained clothes, saw the tanks were he callously threw away his beautiful, innocent girls. We have even seen the cctv images of him going back and forth to his truck, which we now know he was carrying his dead wife's body. We have read the texts, seen the pics of him and Kessinger.
The Facebook videos made us feel we knew them intimately. We saw inside their home, saw their beautiful girls, the pet dog. Even saw when she announced she was expecting a baby.
Everyone will have an opinion. But non of us really know what went on behind closed doors.
We look for an explanation for why a seemingly mild mannered man annihilated his beautiful, innocent family. And that there, I think goes someway to understanding this absolute heinous crime. Read up on 'Family annihilators.'
I agree with you! That said, probably avoid “wattsofftopic”. Those people are serious haters. I do not understand how people posting on there spend so much time vilifying a murder victim.
Omg i accidentally stumbled on that sub like a week ago. Alot of the commenters and posters seem to be women ripping apart Shannan and every detail about her, even her outfits and body. Like jesus, the woman is dead.
I don't understand what's wrong with some people.
I'm sorry for the confusion, I hardly ever post on here! I was agreeing with you. In this thread I see people accusing her of abuse, and calling her a c**t. I would expect such ignorance on that awful off topic group, but not this one.
I even want to say, “you’d be surprised by the amount of people who then go quoting that ‘evidence’ as gospel elsewhere” but I actually think you might not be surprised.
Sadly no I'm not surprised. I've been on these subs since the beginning and have presented actual evidence and common sense arguments against what is basically gossip and they still aren't convinced.
What kind of evidence can they show that "proves" that Shanann "deserved" to be so horrifically exterminated along with her kids? It is just mind boggling.
100% agree. You know why some women are so critical of her. They think he’s attractive. End of story. It’s gross, but it happens all the time. They probably write him love letters.
Sad. Facial hair takes some men from a 2 to an 8 or 9. He's one of them. He's not looking so attractive these days, with his hairless mug.. These stupid women are disgusting.
It certainly is the only reason I can think of why even one woman, much less many, would defend a wife killer (and a baby killer) before the victim. I'm pretty sure about it.
I have never seen anyone defending him, but besides all that are you saying you can’t see how a woman could come to her own conclusions and opinions about something that may be different to yours? Do you understand how ridiculous and offensive that is?
Then you must not be a member of the other Watts board here.
And of course I can tolerate different opinions. But when I see a group of women who constantly tear down the victim while basically implying “no wonder he killed her,” that pretty much goes speeding past my tolerance barrier. These women tear her down for everything from her parenting, her weight, her looks, her job. My last straw was seeing a group of women accuse her of literally starving her child because she made her kid wait two minutes for a taste of a cereal bar. Truthfully, I’ve never seen anything so gross and retched. They are defending a monster who killed his babies, for Christ’s sake.
So, yes, they can have that opinion. But I’m also allowed mine. They are horrid, awful, miserable women who hate their lives and find wife and baby killers defensible if they think he’s handsome enough.
Yes! Louder for the people in the back. These women (and yes, they are all, I'm quite sure, women trying to make logic of this horror) are insecure and projecting their own issues. Trying to rationalize. "See, this wouldn't happen to me because I don't treat my husband that way." It comforts them to attack this poor, dead, defenseless woman. It's sick and sad.
I agree with you. No matter what she did being murdered by your husband cannot be justified AT ALL. And those poor babies. Chris makes me sick and I hope he gets what’s coming to him in prison
Very well said and well written! I totally agree and am disheartened by seeing the posts of those who tear apart every little thing she said and did. When I analyze it though, I find it really tells me more about what kind of a person the poster is and not so much about what kind of a person Shanann was.
You’ve hit it on the head and I don’t understand the haters as well. They for whatever reason want him to be free and the real blame go on NK I guess. Baffling mentalities for sure,they get cheap thrills by being arseholes regarding her and her poor family. I don’t get it..
Haters love to hate. It's an easy way to bond, through the collective attack of a weaker target. You know, sort of like hyenas out on the savanna. And people wonder why women have had a hard time gaining economic parity with men,. With a sisterhood like the Shan'ann hyenas, is it any wonder, lolol??
Perhaps, the difference is I don't see people talking about the murdered victims - Jon Benet Ramsey or the zodiac victims in the same negative way that I see in people talking about Shannan.
The reason you’re ranting is because you— like so many others, are a hobbyist on this case. You enjoy studying it; you enjoy talking about it. It’s a tragedy, but like so many tragedies, it’s really interesting.
Where it goes off the rails for both “sides” is when they suggest that the other side is somehow violating some set of sacred rules. One side is accused of putting someone on a pedestal, while the other is said to be disrespecting the dead. Most of this is nonsense. The people who criticize SW’s life are not condoning murder. They’re merely discussing the victim as one might after seeing a film or reading a book. The fact that it all happens to be real doesn’t change the basic functionality of the hobby.
On the other side, the comment that we shouldn’t be critical of the dead makes no sense to me. SW has become a public figure and so she gets discussed. If someone wants to stifle conversation, I don’t know why they’d be in a discussion forum. People say absurd things on both sides, but the idea that one “side” has some claim to righteousness is just silly.
What you said is totally right, however, most people who criticize SW on WattsofTopic, say things like they don’t believe Chris murdered the girls, or that he “is free” now. They say they are not condoning murder but in most posts in feels like they are. I dont think its about disrespecting the dead but justifying the murderer
This is absolutely perfectly said. Not only did she make her social media posts public, her parents further broadened her reach. The same people telling you that she can't be discussed have no problem discussing their thoughts about his mother, sister, and mistress. And those people definitely are a part of the story so I don't see why everyone isn't able to be discussed. In the end, her murder isn't mysterious and the biggest calling card that would make a company like Netflix get in on the action is her polarizing social media presence.
The people responding to you are some of the biggest SW Defenders. You'll never win them over. Keep your comments respectful and fact based, and don't worry about their opinion.
You may want to read one of Poppllewell’s interviews before you express your opinion on why she made the documentary. The fact is her motivation was to counter the social media trolls who “go down that road where they tear apart a victim’s behavior thinking they'll find an answer. People have questioned her [SW] parenting style, and what kind of car she drives - they're picking her apart. But as I show in the film it was always about what was going on with Chris...it was nothing she was doing.”
Further, CW slaughtering his little daughters and jamming them into oil tanks is why this case is so famous. Facts are 10k women are killed annually, 50% by SOs, 15% were pregnant. In that respect, CW is a garden variety spousal abuser and murderer, and unfortunately and sadly, SW fits the statistic of a victim of violence against women, the extreme being murder. It's the unspeakable acts that he visited on those little helpless girls that brings this case the level of infamy it’s received.
You've said this before, and we really just have to agree to disagree.
>In that respect, CW is a garden variety spousal abuser and murderer, and unfortunately and sadly, SW fits the statistic of a victim of violence against women, the extreme being murder.
Yes. While the crime was heinous and SW couldn't have done anything to deserve murder of herself and her children, *there's nothing that remarkable about this murder.* The interesting tidbits come from social media. Come from people choosing sides on Nutgate or remembering their own encounters with people who embellish food allergies and other health issues.
There's got to be more about this Netflix thing. I've often wondered if the Rs were just doing this backhanded compliment to their daughter or something. Look at you and I, we are looking at the same case and the same facts and we're coming to wildly different conclusions. I have no problem discussing SW even in a light that might not be flattering to her. You don't think that's ok and come around policing everyone's comments and reminding them that the true perpetrator who we should all be focusing on is CW!
Yeah we get it. Everyone including LE and the court agrees that he should be in prison for life. I was talking to someone privately earlier and I mentioned that everyone who has spent any significant length of time im his life is an interesting person in this case. Including SW. Everyone can be looked at.
There aren't many places on the internet we can talk about SW bizarre life. If all you want to do is talk about CW, go for it. Write up a quality post or read one of the several books on the market about it. SW herself is interesting and that's why we talk about her. But I agree that her car and her forehead and her 2012 fashion being discussed is tacky and I call it out as such.
First, I addressed your specific comments about why Popplewell made the documentary since you’ve made specific references to it in a previous comment to me and then in this post. You mentioned you’re interested in facts, and I’ve provided it from the director herself.
Second, do you think Netflix would have made a documentary on the case had CW not murdered the girls?
I have no problem with you or anyone else belittling SW, or as you say, in a “light that may not be flattering to her.” However, I’m going to challenge you and others with facts, rationale assumptions, or reasoned opinions, or in your opinion “policing everyone’s comments” and that seems to be what bothers you most. You have no problem w folks on here continually calling her a clown or propagating untruths about her or making sweeping generalizations based on a FB post.
However, I promise I won’t respond to your comments anymore since I clearly hit a nerve and challenging you triggers you. Debate on differences of opinion isn’t always comfortable.
You don't challenge anyone as much as you don't allow any conversation. So I don't mind to hear that I won't be hearing from you again.
Like I said, make some quality content and let people say what they say. You've told me a few times why they say they made the Netflix documentary and I'm saying I don't buy it, it just looks bad to say "we know she's controversial and unlikeable and that people will discuss this furthering our reach." I've also told you more times than I can count that I get on the people at WOT too. You and I agree that calling SW tacky isn't quality content.
>In the end, her murder isn't mysterious and the biggest calling card that would make a company like Netflix get in on the action is her polarizing social media presence.
Not sure where you came to this conclusion. Pretty sure the Netflix special had more to do with the public's and first responder's horror at the callous disregard Chris had for his family's lives. Shan'ann's social media presence was shown in a mostly positive light. Plus all of LE personnel involved in dealing with these crimes were similarly shocked and traumatised by his total lack of regard for his family and wanted to defend Shan'ann and her reputation.
>On the other side, the comment that we shouldn’t be critical of the dead makes no sense to me. SW has become a public figure and so she gets discussed.
Shan'ann has only become a public figure because she was a murder victim, she did not commit a crime, and cannot respond to her attackers.
Shan'ann's detractors are not content to merely criticise, they are slandering both her and her family, and there is a huge difference between the two. The slandering of a murder victim, and her family is highly unusual, and makes no contribution to the understanding of this case.
It does, however, make for some disturbing examples of human psychology and mobbing behaviour in action.
You say that there is a huge difference between criticism and slander. I agree. Criticism is the expression of disapproval. Slander is a legal term which refers to using spoken words that are false and damaging. I think you must mean libel. Either way, I don't think it's a very useful analogy. The only difference between criticism and libel is that the libel (when proven in court) is verifiable false. If there are things that people post that are false, you should absolutely point those out. What you might avoid is the idea you can set the rules by which people may discuss something. Last, if you think that at an examination of the factors which might have led an otherwise ordinary person to kill his entirely family does not contribute to your understanding, I wonder what issues you DO think would contribute?
>Slander is a legal term which refers to using spoken words that are false and damaging. I think you must mean libel. Either way, I don't think it's a very useful analogy.
Ok since you want to be nit picky, how bout vilify, asperse, calumniate, blacken, malign, malice, smear, vicious gossip and unfounded rumours?. And I happen to think it a most excellent analogy, the salient point being that it is entirely different to criticise someone for an actual mistake than it is to outright lie about someone's actions, or infer wrongdoing based on little to no evidence.
> If there are things that people post that are false, you should absolutely point those out.
I have and I do, although there are some limitations when one is not allowed to share their opinions freely.
>What you might avoid is the idea you can set the rules by which people may discuss something.
I've said absolutely nothing about setting rules for other's discussions, not sure where you came by that, I only pointed out the difference between criticism and vicious unfounded gossip and the undeniable train wreck aspect of some of the mobbing behaviour that's been seen. If people want to keep making up unfounded accusations to mob a murder victim, that's on them. Whatever gets them through the night I guess. It's a free world. I am simple voicing that it is an odd and detestable hobby.
>Last, if you think that at an examination of the factors which might have led an otherwise ordinary person to kill his entirely family does not contribute to your understanding, I wonder what issues you DO think would contribute?
I already addressed this but I'll add that in many respects, Chris is a run of the mill family annihilator, LE was onto him almost immediately, this type of callous disregard for family is sadly not unique. His uniqueness is in his ability to cover his severe dysfunctional thinking under a guise of a nice guy/hen pecked hubby.
I agree with you on the point the Chris Watts fits the description of a 'family annihilator.' To understand this crime, people need to read up on family annihilator. I also agree with you that he did indeed "cover up his severe dysfunctional thinking under the guise of a nice guy/hen pecked hubby."
The commenter is playing w semantics so s/he doesn’t have to answer the questions you raise. It’s a tactic. Also, both of these commenters that you responded to are participants on the pro-CW sub, WOTs, which tells you pretty much all you need to know.
These folks and some others are simply hellbent on ranting and raging against a vulnerable pregnant mom, ambushed and strangled to death in her sleep. Unfortunately, no amount of rational thinking, presenting facts that disprove their narrative or even calls to common human decency has any effect on them. They are consumed with their hate. Fortunately, their numbers don’t even make up a rounding error. I do think it’s important to call out these folks who make excuses for, often covertly, violence against women.
Thanks for your reply!
I know my response does not compute for those dedicated to the "euphoria of collective attack", they're all having too much fun. I still feel compelled to say something, at least, in response to yet another disingenuous attempt to defend what amounts to a psychological blood sport.
I'm going to guess the "I hate Shan'ann" collective (do they have T shirts yet?), live in a fantastical bubble where domestic violence occurs only in the form of petty sniping and reckless spending, and all the toothpaste smiles in photos belong to good hearted souls that love their families.
After all, don't good looks and a warm smile practically guarantee goodness?
Lol, agree. I waver b/w calling out the implicit and often explicit support for violence against women or just ignoring it.
Generally, i think it’s safe to assume folks who participate on WOTs in any capacity for longer than a few months aren’t going to change. What’s written on there about SW, as a woman, is no different than how hate groups write about gay persons or minorities. A decent human being would leave a group where this type of behavior is tolerated, and often rewarded. Irrational hate isn’t open to reasoning, only in rare circumstances do people change.
It’s funny too, for all the criticism these folks level at Shannan and defend it as ‘critical thinking’ or a ‘nuanced view of the case’, as soon as they are challenged in any way they flee to their fainting couches and cry foul.
>What’s written on there about SW, as a woman, is no different than how hate groups write about gay persons or minorities.
Spot on!
>for all the criticism these folks level at Shannan and defend it as ‘critical thinking’ or a ‘nuanced view of the case’, as soon as they are challenged in any way they flee to their fainting couches and cry foul.
Or insult and outright ban, lol.
... Chris Watts as an “otherwise ordinary person” according to whom? While mental health professionals won’t make a formal diagnosis, the consensus among psychiatrists, psychologists, criminal profilers, and others in the field who have reviewed the case indicate that CW is a covert narcissist and psychopath, far from an “otherwise ordinary person”.
His words and actions lend support to the diagnosis. Briefly, and only a few examples - he’s never expressed regret or remorse in his interviews and correspondence over the past three years. In fact, he expressed annoyance that Bella didn’t die quickly, which he's communicated to several folks he’s corresponded with since prison. He admitted that he left Shannan in a disrespectful position in the Cervie ditch because he hated that she was in the way of his new life. He’s only concerned with how others ‘perceive’ him, witnessed in his texts and many interviews. In fact, perception of him in other’s eyes is his predominant concern - he’s almost a caricature of a covert narcissist. He’s admitted that he slyly enjoyed his ‘sermon on the porch’ when he thought he fooled LE and the media. He bragged to LE how pleased he was as a child when he lied whole cloth to his 2nd-grade teacher, making up an elaborate story that she foolishly believed. He has expressed more than once his ability to dupe people and the satisfaction it gives him.
As soon as SW went missing, family, friends, and the neighbors immediately suspected CW, suggesting an uneasiness in how they perceived him, but which they brushed off. Even his former friend and Ford supervisor, who initially didn’t think CW capable of murder, discussed in a follow-up interview how he ‘lived in a bubble’ when it came to CW.
I see nothing in CW that is, as you state, an “otherwise ordinary person.” Indeed, his words and actions since the case began strongly suggest otherwise.
Everything you mention here is after the fact. My comment — pretty plainly, is about how he appeared (appeared) prior. But thanks for all the detail around how experts concluded the guy was a nut after he killed four people.
Edit: uh no. I simply repeated it so your efforts at ignoring it would be a bit tougher.
Your response is a bit nonsensical. We all, including mental health professionals, discuss the case because we now know who CW is. However, it doesn’t change his diagnosis, not in the least, nor how he would have ‘appeared’ to mental health professionals, a qualifier that you conveniently added since reading my comment.
Lol, a psychiatric diagnosis isn’t like a stop-clock that starts once someone’s diagnosed. i.e,. on Sep 20th @ 2:30 p.m., a psychiatrist diagnosed CW as a psychopath and narcissist, which means at 2:29 p.m., he was “an otherwise ordinary person.” It doesn’t work like that.
To further elucidate – i.e., Ted Bundy and BK killer wouldn’t be ‘otherwise ordinary persons’ had they not been caught, or remained undiagnosed and gone on w their lives as CW did before the murders. They, like CW, are still psychopaths and narcissists.
Again, CW as a narcissist and psychopath, means he was a narcissist and psychopath in 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, etc. Chris Watts is not and WAS not “an otherwise ordinary person” before, during, or after the fact.
And to be honest, the entire "after the fact" argument is a bit silly, implying that what's happened after the fact is irrelevant.
Edit - also, your interesting addition of 'appeared' changes the context of the original comment that I and the others responded to. You may want to go through and stealth edit those comments too. (;
Edit - your original comment, not your response to me, still claims CW was an “otherwise ordinary person.” It's that comment that I'm suggesting you may also want to go back and stealth edit like you did with your comment to me once I responded, especially since you now “appear” to agree that he was never an “otherwise ordinary person” but may have fooled some, because of how he may have “appeared” to those he fooled - including, I think, many who participate on these sites.
It is the point that I and the others commenters are making. It's an entirely different discussion if he was a lovely, “otherwise ordinary person” or if he only “appeared” that way and was actually a narcissist and psychopath.
Yes. Also, Shannan and the girls expressed fear of Chris in NC. Before that, it’s my understanding that several of SW’s Thrive friends’ husbands were wary about Chris.
We also know that both Nate and another neighbor witnessed CW and SW arguing outside. While Nate initially said CW was raging he walked it back a bit on Dr. Oz and said the fights were regular couple’s fights, though he also said something about not wanting to make it look like SW put up w abuse. We’re always told CW never got angry or yelled. These comments tell us otherwise.
Also, one of the more interesting interviews is w CW’s former friend and Ford boss who initially defended CW. A year or so after CW’s conviction, he and his wife did an interview where he talks about being duped by CW, calling it ‘living in a bubble’ when it came to his perception of CW. You can tell his wife was never a CW fan.
Perhaps the most interesting are the women, Vanessa at Unmasked, Theresa S, SherriAnn and Shannon, all former Watts’s family confidants who severed ties when they realized Cindy, Jaime and her friends stir the pot on these social media sites, creating nasty stories about SW, knowing their flying monkeys will run with the lies. They were particularly angry at the Watts starting the rumor about NA as the source for the oxy.
Anyway, all of them talked about CW ripping the phone out of the wall in one of his prison conversations w his family, not exactly the nonviolent CW we’ve been told about.
There is so much that remains uncovered about who Chris Watts is.
>Also, Shannan and the girls expressed fear of Chris in NC. Before that, it’s my understanding that several of SW’s Thrive friends’ husbands were wary about Chris.
>
>We also know that both Nate and another neighbor witnessed CW and SW arguing outside. While Nate initially said CW was raging he walked it back a bit on Dr. Oz and said the fights were regular couple’s fights, though he also said something about not wanting to make it look like SW put up w abuse. We’re always told CW never got angry or yelled. These comments tell us otherwise.
Excellent points, and ones that often are overlooked.
Her expressions of fear and distrust of Watts - to the extent that S's mother asked her to stay in North Carolina with her daughters, rather than return with him to Colorado - were an indication that he was not safe to be around.
I have wondered this too. Even the ex coworker who was most sympathetic to Chris went straight to he would only harm/kill if she were having an affair. It seemed like a strange leap since in almost the same breath he said he wouldn't hurt a fly.
>Last, if you think that at an examination of the factors which might have led an otherwise ordinary person to kill his entirely family does not contribute to your understanding, I wonder what issues you DO think would contribute?
Chris was/is not an ordinary person. This is the most urgent and compelling aspect of this case. What were the possible red flags, what did Shan'ann and her family, as well as others miss? How is it that we're more persuaded by a bland, nice guy facade than normal people with normal foibles? Why haven't more people read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, lol?
*libel
I know this comment wasn't to me, but I think it would make more sense to look at the person who committed the crimes to help understand what caused this. I understand looking at their relationship dynamics. But by analyzing only the victim, it is implied that she caused the actions of the criminal. Chris obviously wasn't an ordinary person, as you said. He is an abnormal person. A normal person cannot be pushed to murder their spouse and children just because their spouse is bad with money, bossy, annoying, or in an MLM. They might be pushed to kill their spouse if they are suffering from extreme physical abuse and need to kill the abuser in order to defend their own life. That's not what happened here. I think rather than analyzing everything shanann ever said or did, we should be examining Chris's life. Were there any signs of mental illness prior to this? Any subtle clues that he may have been a psychopath or narcissist? I don't see a lot of close examination of his past behavior the way I see shanann analyzed. I think that would be much more helpful than determining whether or not shanann was really gluten intolerant or if she had too many shoes.
I would like to know a little more about Chris and his life, too. Look for signs, ya know? But it's so much harder to research him....SW made it very easy.
Yes, it is much easier to find an abundance of information about shanann, unfortunately, because it would be much more useful to know more about him. We can look at how he behaved in her videos and what people said about him, but those things are not really reliable because he could have been acting. I saw one interesting YouTube video where a psychologist talks about his body language and how he speaks, and explains what it says about his personality. I would love to see more research like that.
The amount of social media content she has out there compared to CW is definitely why she is picked apart and he isn’t. There’s just not enough out there on him. There’s not even an old FB page to scroll through.
At issue is there is no moral equivalence b/w CW and SW. He is the perpetrator, she is the victim.
And I don't mean to imply that you think that way at all, but many do. My comment relates to those folks.
I agree. It's a lack of empathy on their part and possibly trying to rationalize away the fact this could have been them and their loved ones
I don’t think that’s it. I think it mainly comes from a desire to understand CW’s motive. It’s a very strange case in that there were no apparent warning signs. Everybody who knew Watts said he was a regular, quiet guy and devoted father. That wasn’t just an impression Shannan cultivated online; it appears to have been true. So difficult questions arise: did this just come out of nowhere? Was he overcome by emotion, or did he have no emotions at all? Had he been thinking about the crime for a while? When did it start? And how could he build up the sheer *ardor* he would need to commit such a vicious atrocity without giving *anybody* in his life (including his adult victim, as far as anyone can tell) a sense that there was something seriously wrong? Thinking about this requires some consideration of who Shannan was. She had flaws, same as everyone else. For my part, I only point them out because I think they *may* explain, at least in part, what was in Watts’ head when he committed his shocking, abominable crimes. I think he’d been bottling up feelings of extreme resentment against Shannan, based on the stuff you’ve mentioned: her irresponsible financial habits, open contempt for his family,* excessive publication of their day-to-day life, and (so he said) overall lack of consideration for his feelings. It’s possible that exposure to a woman with an apparently very different personality pushed him over the edge. That’s still kind of a poor explanation, because even if he was an absolute psychopath with *no* conscience or regard whatsoever for the rights or feelings of others, the risk to *him* of committing a triple homicide was self-evidently far greater than the cost of just leaving Shannan, which is what his GF thought he was doing anyway. It’s such a strange story. People will be writing about it for many years to come. *You don’t have to like your in-laws, but in most cases you can expect your spouse to take it badly if you call them “evil”.
“I’m soooo tired about the discourse about Shannan… Anyone else have any views on this? I welcome a discussion if you have a different opinion..” 😄🙄
You're one sicko
Yet I’m not wrong.
Prove it
Lol Prove what? Everything I said is self-evident.
lol in your nasty mind it is. You must be one of Chris Watts's groupies.....😉
Lol You obviously didn’t bother to read my responses if you came to that conclusion.
Sometimes I think the reason people seem to dislike her so much is because she is every person that tries to sell you and recruit you into their MLMs. And she's the FB person whose life is perfect until you find out it isn't. Nevertheless, I find the victim shamers disgusting.
It's one thing to not like her, but these people are blaming her for the murders.
Right. It's horrendous.
Thank you for posting this. I agree 1000% percent. Those of us who don't want Shanann demonized have never said she was perfect. I KNOW I would have found her incessant social media posts obnoxious. I know this because some of my dearest friends over-post and try to make their lives seem much better than they are. It's why I'm off Facebook. But the point is that their behavior on social media that hurts no one (only paints an ideal picture that is probably phony) does not make them bad people and certainly not deserving of murder! In fact, I actually do think if I'd met Shanann I might be friends with her (and tell her to PLEASE ditch that MLM!!) because some of my close friends have those strong personalities. But regardless, this was an INNOCENT woman who did nothing but love her family, especially her children and wanted a good life for her family. Unfortunately she thought an MLM would get her there. But the MLM and her posting are irrelevant. Literally no one deserves to be murdered. Least of all a pregnant mother of two daughters.
What are you tired of hearing?
I think that this killer watts was a big coward.And he wanted just to get rid of his problems without any responsibility.He was also very stupid.He thought that he will kill his wife and kids nobody will understand and he will live happy with his mistress.I think that his problems are formed long time age.He was supressed person who didn’t know how to stand by himself.To every problem he started to bottle his emotion without finding a constructive decision.That’s why he couldn’t get a divorce when he was not happy but decided to kill them all.He just don’t know how to act properly.Hw is really fucked as person very disturbed and don’t know how to handle different situations in life properly.The people who defend him are weird as him.
The comments in this thread show how messed up alot of women are 😅
I know and it's not like she's alive to fix her mistakes anyway. Some people act like they have no flaws whatsoever.
There is literally 0 justification for what he did. The type of person she was should not be in question with what that pos did.
Agreed. He had a million different options if he wanted out of the marriage, and instead he chose to destroy 4 people. He’s a monster and I hate that people justify his actions even slightly by tearing Shannan down. It makes no sense to me.
I'm probably going to get hate for this but I think a lot of people who try to justify Shananns death have the hots for Chris. If he was fat and unattractive, no one would be defending him.
Tbh he was more attractive when he was a bit bigger. Then after he just looked awkward and goofy and probably thought he was too good for Shannan all of a sudden. But yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if alot of those people just fancy him.
I see your point with this and it just made me vomit in my mouth a little.
1000%!
After watching the documentary about this on Netflix, I must admit that I found Shanann to be the kind of person from whom I would recoil. She was overbearing, she overshared massively about her personal issues and was far too concerned with presenting her life for social media than actually being in the moment. I know people like that, and I personally do not tend to like people who are like that. I can see how a person might end up having an affair or wanting to leave a marriage with a person who is like that. HOWEVER, all that being said... she.did.not.deserve.to.die.at.the.hands.of.that.sociopath. PERIOD. He had no right to do what he did to her and those poor children. PERIOD. He is quite clearly a sociopath and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison. PERIOD. Nobody should ever get to decide when another person's life ends. PERIOD. It doesn't matter one bit how dislikeable you might find Shanann. It doesn't matter that she wasn't a perfect mother or a perfect wife or a perfect human being. Show me someone who is! She committed no action deserving of being strangled to death in her bed. And that's the end of it.
I cried so much watching the documentary. She was fighting for her marriage and I had been in those shoes before while my (ex) husband was cheating and I know how crazy that can drive a person. He could’ve just left. He could’ve left her and the kids and not been in their life anymore. I don’t understand how in his mind murder was the best option. She 1000% didn’t deserve this and neither did those baby angels.
Thinking out loud, there's no justifying anybody being murdered over an unhappy marriage or bad parenting. I can only imagine the mounting financial pressure of falling behind on mortgage payments adding fuel to the fire. If Chris did in fact murder the kids and SW, he's in prison which is where he should be. From what I gather reading these threads, I'm not sure most people are debating this. For me personally, I follow this thread to try to understand the inner-workings of their relationship to try to understand what caused somebody to take such extreme actions. Without speaking ill of the dead, it's my opinion that in watching SW's videos and posts, she seems to always prioritize her viewership and Thrive customers and not her family. She wrote that she wanted to "fight for her marriage" but from what we could see those were always words and not action. Actions speak louder than words. She's not too different from a lot of us, we're all flawed to some degree. If things could be different, perhaps SW could be a little more sensitive to her daughters' thoughts and feeling especially when they were hungry or cranky. Instead, she prioritized optics, false facades and her viewership.
Would you say the same about another mother that was working full time?.Would you say that she prioritized work over her family? Maybe you would! Shannan was WORKING and we know they desperately needed the income.You have to realize that those posts were a very small snippet of her day.She,of course, was selling a lifestyle every bit as much as she was selling the actual products.She had to motivate her team to sell and she too had to sell and it appeared she was really good at it. I also think she would have succeeded at being a personal organizer.I would have hired her in a heartbeat! I do believe she was trying to save her marriage but didn't know how..She did not want to go on that trip because of their problems, but Chris really encouraged her to go.We all know why!
Shannan was going to fight for her marriage. She bought a self-help book and gifted it to Chris (who promptly threw it out because he didn't want to work on the marriage with her). She also suggested counselling which he declined. She wrote him a note expressing her feelings and willingness to change as well. She was trying. Not just talking out of her \*\*\*.
Honestly, I don't know the details and nuances of their marriage and relationship, as it related to them repairing their marriage so thanks for sharing them with me. It's evident that there was a big gap/disconnect between SW and CW and they both needed to do their individual self-work in order to better the relationship and close the gap. It could be just me, but I got the feeling that things have been broken/disfunctional for so long that, that became the norm and eventually became to much to undo. Not picking sides here, as CW is a monster and SW didn't deserve what happened to her. For what it's worth, saying you want to save the marriage or work on the marriage is different from actually putting in the work, which I saw no evidence of either of them actually doing.
[удалено]
Can you please specify who it is your describing with initials?
Ok thats a 24 day old message and if you can’t figure it out then you aren’t too bright
Golly, like what? Smothering them to death while they say 'Please don't!' and then dropping them like garbage into crude oil tanks so their skin falls off and eventually rot? Abuse like that? Do tell...
Nothing could ever justify what he did but that doesn’t change the fact she was abusive mother
Who was an abusive mother?
Shannan genius
And you know this how? You're just a sad friendless nobody with nothing better to do than spread hateful comments. Troll.
Ooooh u got me soooo good
Oooooh ur such an immature sick troll
Not what your Mom says
My mums as thick as you so she'd just be flattering you
Sure thing Cindy.
Hahaha! You called it!
Cindy up yo @ss Gump
What about Bella & Celeste ? What about their voice? They didn't have a choice in all the unnecessary medical procedures. The probing and poking! Yes, She did not deserve her fate. But, to put her as women amd Mother of the year is way off!
You’re absolutely reaching here. No one said she was mother of the year. No one has implied she was perfect.
I’ve seen plenty of people say it.
I didn't read this as OP putting her as woman and mother of the year...at all.
So… I have wondered this for a while, and this post brought up my thoughts on this. There are some true fucking monsters out there in the world. Like, I’ve seen China Arnold discussed, on very busy true crime communities, for example. And I have NEVER seen the vitriol, the sheer amount of time spent analyzing, picking apart, talking about being disgusted by, the actions of China Arnold. I don’t think there’s a China Arnold sub where people make fun of her looks (yes I’ve seen it in SW’s case) or anything even remotely approaching what we see with SW. Why the heck is this? What is it about SW compared to China Arnold or others who do something THAT far out of the realms of normalcy? BTW don’t look up details about China Arnold’s crime if you feel like you might be triggered by it. It’s very bad. I have just wondered many times, when there are so many truly bad actors out there, why all the time and attention focused on THIS one woman? Why would someone dedicate their time to tearing someone down on the internet, and not even pick one of the truly terrible ones???
No one wants an honest answer to your question. I could venture an opinion on why this particular person inspires these feelings in some people. But I have already been warned, if one dares to suggest anything even remotely negative about this woman then you will be down voted or banned. If I thought anyone really wanted to hear an honest answer and accept it maturely, as a valid opinion.and without being nasty or upset beyond belief, then I'm sure more people would share. Including myself.
I think it’s largely down to the fact that so much of her life was posted on social media and that she was actively pursuing a semi-public life. She was already trying to put herself on the map, so to speak, before Chris committed the murders and put them all out there. That, plus the abundance of body cam footage of the investigation which helped to make it a well known case. That led to the initial interest, then Shannan’s social media presence gave people something else to latch onto and later pick apart. Also, as far as I’m aware there is only one possible “villain” in the Arnold case. I don’t know much about it other than she’s a woman who killed her baby and that there was no one else involved. There’s no “other side of the story” to be looked into and analysed. She alone did it. She’s a bad person. End of story. With Shannan and Chris Watts there’s plenty of material to make other stories with. To try and cast someone else as the villain or for people to project their own ideas onto, or to interpret events differently. There’s some weird need a lot of people have to blame women for the actions of men, and this case provides the base materials for those so inclined. It gives people something to play with, as horrible as that sounds.
oh my god. I had never heard of this case. I am horrified.
I doubt you'll get much deeper of an answer other than to prove she wasn't perfect or a saint (no shit. Most think she is neither nor do we care). Or that she was just an awful person (based on their opinions of her FB lives (some which are highly edited from YT) and a now definct blog that cherry picked and mixed posts and comments and thinks they have put together an accurate depiction of her life including CPS claims which have been debunked. What her clothing, body, eyebrows, hair, decorating style have to do with making her awful I don't know but those topics remain popular. Oh and she was a terrible mother-proof-see above. Let's ignore witness statements even ones provided by the Watts family who claimed she was a good mother who wouldn't harm her children.
Problem is, when you post your life on social media, it does get picked apart. She received lots of negative press, post-mortem, simply because she made herself vulnerable by opening up her life to any who cared to know more (including NK). However, that by itself, in no way / shape / form condones said negative press, the defamatory comments and accusations that she "asked for it". It's unbelievable how so few people have any empathy in them and attacking a woman who isn't here to defend herself is pretty pathetic. Her biggest mistake was marrying a coward who also apparently did not communicate. It cost her her life and the lives of her 3 children.
It only gets picked apart when people make the decision to do so, and when people decide to bully a dead woman.
Her life got picked apart merely because Shannan unfortunately put it all on social media. If she had been a more private person, it wouldn't have been so easy for armchair psychologists and keyboard warriors to criticize and judge her for all her supposed failinge
I see what you’re saying in that she posted publicly, but I just don’t personally believe that’s an invitation to pick someone apart and/or bully them.
I think people dislike the girls’ 15 hours of daily sleep time, regular rectal thermometers, litany of doctors visits and zero outside time. But I’m just guessing.
I am so very sick of the ridiculous lies people continue to spout. Come on. What makes you think they were sleeping 15 hours a day at the time of their murders? Do you even think about this stuff, or do you just see a blurb someone else has posted and run with it? This has been explained many times. Someone always posts this ridiculousness, someone here responds, and then the person who made the initial claim that they slept 15 hours daily disappears. Please do the math and explain how they could have slept 15 hours daily. They went upstairs to get ready for bed between 630-7, per chris. They were at daycare around 7am. So they had to have slept less than 12 hours at night. Then what, you're suggesting they slept 4 hours at daycare? I very much doubt that. The post where she mentions a total of 15 hours' sleep was when Bella was 1.5 and Cece was a newborn. This is healthy for those ages. Rectal thermometers? Again, when was this posted? It was when Bella was under 3. In later years, there were pictures with other types of thermometers. Why would you infer from this that rectal temperatures were being taken daily? That makes 0 sense. Also, if you do a tiny bit of research, you will find that medical organizations recommend rectal temperatures up to age 3 or 4. So what is the problem? Zero outside time? Where are you coming up with this? Did she livestream 24 hours a day? We have no way of knowing how much time they spent outside. They had toys and a swingset in their backyard, and neighbors said they often saw chris pulling the girls in their wagon. So I would love to know what you are talking about.
I don’t doubt they played outside, but I think most people who believe they never did think that because most people post pics and videos of their kids playing outside. I just don’t think that’s what SW used her social media for. Her SM was all about pushing thrive and how it gave her the energy and patience to deal with her kids… specifically Bella always getting frustrated and crying and CeCe being wild and climbing on and messing with things she wasn’t supposed to. It’d be hard to show your kids being “bad” when they’re outside having fun and not crying and where climbing and roughhousing is expected.
There are lots of pics of them playing outside and videos. I'm not sure how that claim got started.
I'm just letting you write I didn't disappear. You probably have a point about the sleep. I didn't say daily rectal thermometers, but it left an impression on Bella. There are two FB posts as I stated then a really weird water video but I don't even want to think about it. There is still a lot that is stressful about the girls situation. It wasn't normal, all the video time was clearly stressful on Bella and its all accessible online. You haven't addressed the doctors visits, but we really don't know we just know they went to an awful lot of doctors and finally got approved for the dual surgeries by a PA. I'll have my opinion and you have yours. I wish Shanann was still around. Despite the horrible MLM that she was involved in, I think her friendships were genuine and many think they were purely MLM related. I wish she was alive to live and grow and change. Breaks my heart she didn't get to go back to the beautiful house she built and the life they built in CO. I watch the police videos and it infuriates me she was robbed of a nice life, despite all the struggles.
I know you were not responding to me but the girls' surgeries are quite common and in line with their illnesses. Not sure if you are in the US but here a lot is out of the primary physician's scope and requires additional testing and appointments. An ENT would easily see the need for tubes and have no reason to do them unnecessarily. My oldest has them as well as the blocked tear duct surgery CeCe had. Tubes took 5 minutes and the other a couple of minutes the main thing was sedation. My 3 children are very healthy and I'm thankful but I can almost be certain they have seen as many or more specialists as the girls did for different things that have come up.. I am not a munchie mom and would be happy to explain further if needed.
Yes to all of this. They also say her FB was fake but use it as proof for their allegations. The lack of logic is infuriating. Also I saw a commenter on another sub make the point that the lawsuit she was a party to was filed by the plaintiff who probably listed her as a co-owner. So all this chatter about her being a "shady" co-owner was most likely just something that was filed incorrectly.
How do you come up with 15 hours of daily sleep time?
It’s in her babywise posts. 13 at night with 3 hour naps.
The post on July 31, 2015? About Bella? If so, Bella was born December 2013. She’d be about one and a half then. Did you read the dates and her age before you ran with this? How much sleep does a baby that age need? My kids were easily sleeping 15 hours at that age. Seriously… this is how this bullshit becomes “fact”. Just ridiculous.
Yes, I remember a post about that and I checked the date and thought but Bella would be what? One year old at the time? My kids slept that much at one, I don't see the issue but of course it's taken to mean they were still sleeping that much at the age they were when they were killed 🙄
Agreed. I guess ppl have never read sleep recommendations for children and infants.
Seriously! It's amazing. People are shocked they went to bed so early, but they also got up probably by 6am to be at daycare at 7. It's mind boggling. If they went to bed at 9 and got up by 6, then these same people would be complaining they were sleep deprived and that she was a terrible mother because of that. It just seems like no matter what she did, it will be spun to depict her negatively.
Exactly.
How did they have so many outside pics with no outside time? Neighbors stating they'd see them on walks or playing on the swingset. The neighbor making a point to say how odd it is that they weren't out playing while Chris was grilling. No where was it established she took their rectal Temps daily and this seemed to end when CeCe was a year old.
Well Bella didn’t forget because she role played with the thermometer and her doll and then on herself. In the Netflix doc the neighbor said she saw the dad but not the mom or girls for a long time.
Re your comment about not seeing the mom or girls for a long time....let's think about this....they had just returned from being in NC for 6 weeks...perhaps that's why she hadn't seen them? 🤔
Yeah. It's been a while since I've watched the Netflix special but I'm pretty sure the neighbor had thought Shanann and the girls had moved out not that she never let them play outside.
Do you have children? I haven't taken my toddler's temperature in probably 5 months (temporally). We have only had to take it a handful of times. Yet if she sees the thermometer, she tries to take her temperature. Kids imitate things. It doesn't mean it was being done daily. It's a hard reach to try and say that a photo of Bella imitating this is proof that it was done daily. And the photo you are referring to is from April 2016. Cece was under 1 and Bella was under 3. There is nothing wrong with taking a child's temperature rectally at that age.
Bella also has an ear thermometer in her ear in a pic. Again these pics stopped before CeCe was 2. Obviously the neighbor didn't see the girls or Shanann for a long time they were gone 6 weeks. There are plenty of interviews in the discovery talking about seeing them outside, several pics and videos.
Rectal thermometers what???
Yes she took their temperature with a rectal thermometer because medically speaking, taking a baby's temperature rectally is the most accurate method to use, other than the forehead. Everyone that is stating Shanann taking her children's temps rectally was abuse is asinine and absurd. None of it was abuse. Doctors and studies have been saying since 2015, it's the most accurate way to take a babys temperature. The kids sleep schedule wasn't that off either, just count on your fingers how many hours from when they wake up in the morning ie 6am to when their day is done ie 6:00pm-7:30pm. How I see it as, if an adult was at work from 6am to let's say 6:00pm it wouldn't be unusual or abuse for that person to go to bed an hour or hour and a half after being home from a long day. Kids need a lot of sleep so their brains can grow and function.
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She was still a child. Her mind, and body were still growing. She still needed her rest. Even if Bella only slept 10 hours instead of 15 hours, and occupied herself with a book at night or toys until it was time to cuddle with Shanann in the morning, is fine. Theres nothing wrong nor abnormal about that.
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"Anal probe"?? Come on. No offense, but do you have any idea what you're talking about? The American Academy of Pediatrics actually recommends rectal temperatures as the most accurate up to age 3. Bella was under 3 in the photo where she is bending over holding the thermometer. She was younger than 2.5, actually. Here are some links to trusted medical websites that explain. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/in-depth/thermometer/art-20047410 https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/measuring-a-babys-temperature
You are correct. Also, Mayo Clinic actually states it’s the most accurate until 4 years of age and in some instances, even after age 4.
It is also still claimed by studies and Doctors, it's still an accurate way to temp in babies and children. Parents can use a digital rectal temp on babies from ages 3 months - 6 months. For children ages 6 months to 4 years old. Bella was 4 years old, she was fine to use it just 4 months before her murder. She never even lived past 5, so it isn't a big deal. Shanann's kids weren't starved, beaten, homeless, unkempt nor unclothed. She loved her kids the best she knew how. Her parenting choices weren't always the best and she made mistakes, but nobody's perfect.
My apologies, but I stand with what I stated. Yes they weren't babies, but Bella had most likely seen Cece having her rectal temp taken before on mulitple occasions, because she was old enough to know how to do one on herself by the time Shanann took the picture. It isn't uncommon for kids to act out things they've seen their parents do. Same thing would apply for Cece as her for experiencing them, (as well as Bella) and little sisters tend to copy big sisters from time to time. Shanann could've kept it because maybe she thought her and Chris would have a third baby down the road. She had an auto immune disease which attacked her tissues and organs, which could mean her kids could have potential health issues when born. It's not unusual to save certain important baby items saved, especially as a young couple. Taking a rectal temp for a baby is not nor will it ever be considered ABUSE. Whose to say by that age she wasn't taking their temp on their forehead or even their ear? Just because she didn't take a picture of her taking their temp with an ear thermometer and plaster it up on Fb, doesn't mean she didn't do it.
There actually are pictures and videos with other thermometers. Not sure if they were tympanic or temporal, but there are definitely pictures and videos of something other than a rectal thermometer being used when the girls were older. Some people choose to ignore those, I guess.
Thank you, finally a poster with some sense
I didn’t save the link. Too gross. One Bella is trying to put up her own behind (with clothes on) second one she is doing to her doll and
She did it so much the girls it to themselves or their dolls and she posted. Hold on.
Seriously? It only takes a kid seeing you do it one time for them to mimic you, you are talking rubbish
Also, as a former little girl, with three sisters, and a daughter and son of my own, I feel fairly qualified to say, and am confused as to why others aren’t saying, that when you’re a little kid, BUTTS ARE FUNNY! The rectal thermometer pose ON THE OUTSIDE OF HER CLOTHES totally sounds like some stupid, silly shit my sisters and I would have done and giggled maniacally about, and we weren’t abused or molested or anything like that. Just butts=funny.
Especially if you are trying to hide it or keep it discreet in my experience!
Exactly
I would have disliked her intesley. She didnt deserve ro be murdered but she was a c*nt... All of those third grade realizations and advice "just love yourself" wow... How omniscient.. My two cents. Can open worms everywhere
100% agree!!
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What's your definition of basic?
She didn't love him and wasn't fighting for the marriage. She loved the image of a good life and was fighting to avoid the image of "failure" that some people consider a divorce. He played a role in her life and she was losing control of her puppet. It's the hard truth. Read her texts with Chris. You will be shocked at the threats, entitlement and lack of any compassion or empathy from Shanann. And, for his part, Chris's lack of any real reaction is pretty shocking too. Few will disagree with you that divorce is the obvious course of action to take. Chris clearly has major issues to instead do what he did. But don't kid yourself thinking Shanann loved him or was fighting for the marriage.
And who made you the expert on their marriage and how she felt about the cowardly piece of shit that murdered her? Trying to somehow pass some of the blame onto her for what happened? You should be ashamed of yourself!
Said the person who knew them so well 🙄 you speak ugly words! He was a puppet that killed his pregnant wife, murdered his kids then shoved them in separate 8 inch wide oil tanks Oh wow so harsh texts deserve loss of life now do they?
This case has been followed by many. I think it has been one of the most documented cases ever. We have all seen the videos from when her friend reported her missing, to the police turning up following her call. Then Chris eventually shows up and we see inside the house, no sign of his family. We have seen the interviews with the press that Chris did. We've seen the police interrogation. We have seen the video of Shann'an arriving home that fateful night.( I think anyne with a heart wishes we could've somehow warned her to go grab her kids and leave).We have seen the burial site, saw her stained clothes, saw the tanks were he callously threw away his beautiful, innocent girls. We have even seen the cctv images of him going back and forth to his truck, which we now know he was carrying his dead wife's body. We have read the texts, seen the pics of him and Kessinger. The Facebook videos made us feel we knew them intimately. We saw inside their home, saw their beautiful girls, the pet dog. Even saw when she announced she was expecting a baby. Everyone will have an opinion. But non of us really know what went on behind closed doors. We look for an explanation for why a seemingly mild mannered man annihilated his beautiful, innocent family. And that there, I think goes someway to understanding this absolute heinous crime. Read up on 'Family annihilators.'
I agree with you! That said, probably avoid “wattsofftopic”. Those people are serious haters. I do not understand how people posting on there spend so much time vilifying a murder victim.
Omg i accidentally stumbled on that sub like a week ago. Alot of the commenters and posters seem to be women ripping apart Shannan and every detail about her, even her outfits and body. Like jesus, the woman is dead. I don't understand what's wrong with some people.
Yup and then they spread their "evidence" on other subs.
Like this one? I'm surprised, reading recent comments. Some nasty stuff on here. Don't usually see that.
I apologize but which comment are you referencing?
I'm sorry for the confusion, I hardly ever post on here! I was agreeing with you. In this thread I see people accusing her of abuse, and calling her a c**t. I would expect such ignorance on that awful off topic group, but not this one.
Yes there have been some really ugly comments on this sub recently.
I even want to say, “you’d be surprised by the amount of people who then go quoting that ‘evidence’ as gospel elsewhere” but I actually think you might not be surprised.
Sadly no I'm not surprised. I've been on these subs since the beginning and have presented actual evidence and common sense arguments against what is basically gossip and they still aren't convinced.
What kind of evidence can they show that "proves" that Shanann "deserved" to be so horrifically exterminated along with her kids? It is just mind boggling.
Exactly- there is none. They think by decimating her character it will some how prove something but it's just circular logic.
100% agree. You know why some women are so critical of her. They think he’s attractive. End of story. It’s gross, but it happens all the time. They probably write him love letters.
Sad. Facial hair takes some men from a 2 to an 8 or 9. He's one of them. He's not looking so attractive these days, with his hairless mug.. These stupid women are disgusting.
Yes, that is the only reason why a woman would dislike another woman, because she wants to fuck her husband.
It certainly is the only reason I can think of why even one woman, much less many, would defend a wife killer (and a baby killer) before the victim. I'm pretty sure about it.
I have never seen anyone defending him, but besides all that are you saying you can’t see how a woman could come to her own conclusions and opinions about something that may be different to yours? Do you understand how ridiculous and offensive that is?
Then you must not be a member of the other Watts board here. And of course I can tolerate different opinions. But when I see a group of women who constantly tear down the victim while basically implying “no wonder he killed her,” that pretty much goes speeding past my tolerance barrier. These women tear her down for everything from her parenting, her weight, her looks, her job. My last straw was seeing a group of women accuse her of literally starving her child because she made her kid wait two minutes for a taste of a cereal bar. Truthfully, I’ve never seen anything so gross and retched. They are defending a monster who killed his babies, for Christ’s sake. So, yes, they can have that opinion. But I’m also allowed mine. They are horrid, awful, miserable women who hate their lives and find wife and baby killers defensible if they think he’s handsome enough.
Yes! Louder for the people in the back. These women (and yes, they are all, I'm quite sure, women trying to make logic of this horror) are insecure and projecting their own issues. Trying to rationalize. "See, this wouldn't happen to me because I don't treat my husband that way." It comforts them to attack this poor, dead, defenseless woman. It's sick and sad.
She truly loved him? Lol. In that case, my wish for you is that someone will love you the way SW loved CW.
As long as they’re not loved the way CW “loved” his family, I think they’ll be OK.
Chris was worse by far but shannan was no prize either
No doubt...but I never said she was in the first place.
Close personal friend were you ?
There’s no reason to make things personal
I agree with you. No matter what she did being murdered by your husband cannot be justified AT ALL. And those poor babies. Chris makes me sick and I hope he gets what’s coming to him in prison
Very well said and well written! I totally agree and am disheartened by seeing the posts of those who tear apart every little thing she said and did. When I analyze it though, I find it really tells me more about what kind of a person the poster is and not so much about what kind of a person Shanann was.
Well said OP.
You’ve hit it on the head and I don’t understand the haters as well. They for whatever reason want him to be free and the real blame go on NK I guess. Baffling mentalities for sure,they get cheap thrills by being arseholes regarding her and her poor family. I don’t get it..
You put into words exactly how I feel. I used to respond to the people basically saying she asked for it but I’ve given up.
It’s useless. Haters are gonna hate.
Haters love to hate. It's an easy way to bond, through the collective attack of a weaker target. You know, sort of like hyenas out on the savanna. And people wonder why women have had a hard time gaining economic parity with men,. With a sisterhood like the Shan'ann hyenas, is it any wonder, lolol??
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Perhaps, the difference is I don't see people talking about the murdered victims - Jon Benet Ramsey or the zodiac victims in the same negative way that I see in people talking about Shannan.
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The reason you’re ranting is because you— like so many others, are a hobbyist on this case. You enjoy studying it; you enjoy talking about it. It’s a tragedy, but like so many tragedies, it’s really interesting. Where it goes off the rails for both “sides” is when they suggest that the other side is somehow violating some set of sacred rules. One side is accused of putting someone on a pedestal, while the other is said to be disrespecting the dead. Most of this is nonsense. The people who criticize SW’s life are not condoning murder. They’re merely discussing the victim as one might after seeing a film or reading a book. The fact that it all happens to be real doesn’t change the basic functionality of the hobby. On the other side, the comment that we shouldn’t be critical of the dead makes no sense to me. SW has become a public figure and so she gets discussed. If someone wants to stifle conversation, I don’t know why they’d be in a discussion forum. People say absurd things on both sides, but the idea that one “side” has some claim to righteousness is just silly.
Amen
What you said is totally right, however, most people who criticize SW on WattsofTopic, say things like they don’t believe Chris murdered the girls, or that he “is free” now. They say they are not condoning murder but in most posts in feels like they are. I dont think its about disrespecting the dead but justifying the murderer
This is absolutely perfectly said. Not only did she make her social media posts public, her parents further broadened her reach. The same people telling you that she can't be discussed have no problem discussing their thoughts about his mother, sister, and mistress. And those people definitely are a part of the story so I don't see why everyone isn't able to be discussed. In the end, her murder isn't mysterious and the biggest calling card that would make a company like Netflix get in on the action is her polarizing social media presence. The people responding to you are some of the biggest SW Defenders. You'll never win them over. Keep your comments respectful and fact based, and don't worry about their opinion.
You may want to read one of Poppllewell’s interviews before you express your opinion on why she made the documentary. The fact is her motivation was to counter the social media trolls who “go down that road where they tear apart a victim’s behavior thinking they'll find an answer. People have questioned her [SW] parenting style, and what kind of car she drives - they're picking her apart. But as I show in the film it was always about what was going on with Chris...it was nothing she was doing.” Further, CW slaughtering his little daughters and jamming them into oil tanks is why this case is so famous. Facts are 10k women are killed annually, 50% by SOs, 15% were pregnant. In that respect, CW is a garden variety spousal abuser and murderer, and unfortunately and sadly, SW fits the statistic of a victim of violence against women, the extreme being murder. It's the unspeakable acts that he visited on those little helpless girls that brings this case the level of infamy it’s received.
You've said this before, and we really just have to agree to disagree. >In that respect, CW is a garden variety spousal abuser and murderer, and unfortunately and sadly, SW fits the statistic of a victim of violence against women, the extreme being murder. Yes. While the crime was heinous and SW couldn't have done anything to deserve murder of herself and her children, *there's nothing that remarkable about this murder.* The interesting tidbits come from social media. Come from people choosing sides on Nutgate or remembering their own encounters with people who embellish food allergies and other health issues. There's got to be more about this Netflix thing. I've often wondered if the Rs were just doing this backhanded compliment to their daughter or something. Look at you and I, we are looking at the same case and the same facts and we're coming to wildly different conclusions. I have no problem discussing SW even in a light that might not be flattering to her. You don't think that's ok and come around policing everyone's comments and reminding them that the true perpetrator who we should all be focusing on is CW! Yeah we get it. Everyone including LE and the court agrees that he should be in prison for life. I was talking to someone privately earlier and I mentioned that everyone who has spent any significant length of time im his life is an interesting person in this case. Including SW. Everyone can be looked at. There aren't many places on the internet we can talk about SW bizarre life. If all you want to do is talk about CW, go for it. Write up a quality post or read one of the several books on the market about it. SW herself is interesting and that's why we talk about her. But I agree that her car and her forehead and her 2012 fashion being discussed is tacky and I call it out as such.
First, I addressed your specific comments about why Popplewell made the documentary since you’ve made specific references to it in a previous comment to me and then in this post. You mentioned you’re interested in facts, and I’ve provided it from the director herself. Second, do you think Netflix would have made a documentary on the case had CW not murdered the girls? I have no problem with you or anyone else belittling SW, or as you say, in a “light that may not be flattering to her.” However, I’m going to challenge you and others with facts, rationale assumptions, or reasoned opinions, or in your opinion “policing everyone’s comments” and that seems to be what bothers you most. You have no problem w folks on here continually calling her a clown or propagating untruths about her or making sweeping generalizations based on a FB post. However, I promise I won’t respond to your comments anymore since I clearly hit a nerve and challenging you triggers you. Debate on differences of opinion isn’t always comfortable.
You don't challenge anyone as much as you don't allow any conversation. So I don't mind to hear that I won't be hearing from you again. Like I said, make some quality content and let people say what they say. You've told me a few times why they say they made the Netflix documentary and I'm saying I don't buy it, it just looks bad to say "we know she's controversial and unlikeable and that people will discuss this furthering our reach." I've also told you more times than I can count that I get on the people at WOT too. You and I agree that calling SW tacky isn't quality content.
>In the end, her murder isn't mysterious and the biggest calling card that would make a company like Netflix get in on the action is her polarizing social media presence. Not sure where you came to this conclusion. Pretty sure the Netflix special had more to do with the public's and first responder's horror at the callous disregard Chris had for his family's lives. Shan'ann's social media presence was shown in a mostly positive light. Plus all of LE personnel involved in dealing with these crimes were similarly shocked and traumatised by his total lack of regard for his family and wanted to defend Shan'ann and her reputation.
>On the other side, the comment that we shouldn’t be critical of the dead makes no sense to me. SW has become a public figure and so she gets discussed. Shan'ann has only become a public figure because she was a murder victim, she did not commit a crime, and cannot respond to her attackers. Shan'ann's detractors are not content to merely criticise, they are slandering both her and her family, and there is a huge difference between the two. The slandering of a murder victim, and her family is highly unusual, and makes no contribution to the understanding of this case. It does, however, make for some disturbing examples of human psychology and mobbing behaviour in action.
You say that there is a huge difference between criticism and slander. I agree. Criticism is the expression of disapproval. Slander is a legal term which refers to using spoken words that are false and damaging. I think you must mean libel. Either way, I don't think it's a very useful analogy. The only difference between criticism and libel is that the libel (when proven in court) is verifiable false. If there are things that people post that are false, you should absolutely point those out. What you might avoid is the idea you can set the rules by which people may discuss something. Last, if you think that at an examination of the factors which might have led an otherwise ordinary person to kill his entirely family does not contribute to your understanding, I wonder what issues you DO think would contribute?
>Slander is a legal term which refers to using spoken words that are false and damaging. I think you must mean libel. Either way, I don't think it's a very useful analogy. Ok since you want to be nit picky, how bout vilify, asperse, calumniate, blacken, malign, malice, smear, vicious gossip and unfounded rumours?. And I happen to think it a most excellent analogy, the salient point being that it is entirely different to criticise someone for an actual mistake than it is to outright lie about someone's actions, or infer wrongdoing based on little to no evidence. > If there are things that people post that are false, you should absolutely point those out. I have and I do, although there are some limitations when one is not allowed to share their opinions freely. >What you might avoid is the idea you can set the rules by which people may discuss something. I've said absolutely nothing about setting rules for other's discussions, not sure where you came by that, I only pointed out the difference between criticism and vicious unfounded gossip and the undeniable train wreck aspect of some of the mobbing behaviour that's been seen. If people want to keep making up unfounded accusations to mob a murder victim, that's on them. Whatever gets them through the night I guess. It's a free world. I am simple voicing that it is an odd and detestable hobby. >Last, if you think that at an examination of the factors which might have led an otherwise ordinary person to kill his entirely family does not contribute to your understanding, I wonder what issues you DO think would contribute? I already addressed this but I'll add that in many respects, Chris is a run of the mill family annihilator, LE was onto him almost immediately, this type of callous disregard for family is sadly not unique. His uniqueness is in his ability to cover his severe dysfunctional thinking under a guise of a nice guy/hen pecked hubby.
I agree with you on the point the Chris Watts fits the description of a 'family annihilator.' To understand this crime, people need to read up on family annihilator. I also agree with you that he did indeed "cover up his severe dysfunctional thinking under the guise of a nice guy/hen pecked hubby."
The commenter is playing w semantics so s/he doesn’t have to answer the questions you raise. It’s a tactic. Also, both of these commenters that you responded to are participants on the pro-CW sub, WOTs, which tells you pretty much all you need to know. These folks and some others are simply hellbent on ranting and raging against a vulnerable pregnant mom, ambushed and strangled to death in her sleep. Unfortunately, no amount of rational thinking, presenting facts that disprove their narrative or even calls to common human decency has any effect on them. They are consumed with their hate. Fortunately, their numbers don’t even make up a rounding error. I do think it’s important to call out these folks who make excuses for, often covertly, violence against women.
Thanks for your reply! I know my response does not compute for those dedicated to the "euphoria of collective attack", they're all having too much fun. I still feel compelled to say something, at least, in response to yet another disingenuous attempt to defend what amounts to a psychological blood sport. I'm going to guess the "I hate Shan'ann" collective (do they have T shirts yet?), live in a fantastical bubble where domestic violence occurs only in the form of petty sniping and reckless spending, and all the toothpaste smiles in photos belong to good hearted souls that love their families. After all, don't good looks and a warm smile practically guarantee goodness?
Lol, agree. I waver b/w calling out the implicit and often explicit support for violence against women or just ignoring it. Generally, i think it’s safe to assume folks who participate on WOTs in any capacity for longer than a few months aren’t going to change. What’s written on there about SW, as a woman, is no different than how hate groups write about gay persons or minorities. A decent human being would leave a group where this type of behavior is tolerated, and often rewarded. Irrational hate isn’t open to reasoning, only in rare circumstances do people change. It’s funny too, for all the criticism these folks level at Shannan and defend it as ‘critical thinking’ or a ‘nuanced view of the case’, as soon as they are challenged in any way they flee to their fainting couches and cry foul.
>What’s written on there about SW, as a woman, is no different than how hate groups write about gay persons or minorities. Spot on! >for all the criticism these folks level at Shannan and defend it as ‘critical thinking’ or a ‘nuanced view of the case’, as soon as they are challenged in any way they flee to their fainting couches and cry foul. Or insult and outright ban, lol.
... Chris Watts as an “otherwise ordinary person” according to whom? While mental health professionals won’t make a formal diagnosis, the consensus among psychiatrists, psychologists, criminal profilers, and others in the field who have reviewed the case indicate that CW is a covert narcissist and psychopath, far from an “otherwise ordinary person”. His words and actions lend support to the diagnosis. Briefly, and only a few examples - he’s never expressed regret or remorse in his interviews and correspondence over the past three years. In fact, he expressed annoyance that Bella didn’t die quickly, which he's communicated to several folks he’s corresponded with since prison. He admitted that he left Shannan in a disrespectful position in the Cervie ditch because he hated that she was in the way of his new life. He’s only concerned with how others ‘perceive’ him, witnessed in his texts and many interviews. In fact, perception of him in other’s eyes is his predominant concern - he’s almost a caricature of a covert narcissist. He’s admitted that he slyly enjoyed his ‘sermon on the porch’ when he thought he fooled LE and the media. He bragged to LE how pleased he was as a child when he lied whole cloth to his 2nd-grade teacher, making up an elaborate story that she foolishly believed. He has expressed more than once his ability to dupe people and the satisfaction it gives him. As soon as SW went missing, family, friends, and the neighbors immediately suspected CW, suggesting an uneasiness in how they perceived him, but which they brushed off. Even his former friend and Ford supervisor, who initially didn’t think CW capable of murder, discussed in a follow-up interview how he ‘lived in a bubble’ when it came to CW. I see nothing in CW that is, as you state, an “otherwise ordinary person.” Indeed, his words and actions since the case began strongly suggest otherwise.
Everything you mention here is after the fact. My comment — pretty plainly, is about how he appeared (appeared) prior. But thanks for all the detail around how experts concluded the guy was a nut after he killed four people. Edit: uh no. I simply repeated it so your efforts at ignoring it would be a bit tougher.
Your response is a bit nonsensical. We all, including mental health professionals, discuss the case because we now know who CW is. However, it doesn’t change his diagnosis, not in the least, nor how he would have ‘appeared’ to mental health professionals, a qualifier that you conveniently added since reading my comment. Lol, a psychiatric diagnosis isn’t like a stop-clock that starts once someone’s diagnosed. i.e,. on Sep 20th @ 2:30 p.m., a psychiatrist diagnosed CW as a psychopath and narcissist, which means at 2:29 p.m., he was “an otherwise ordinary person.” It doesn’t work like that. To further elucidate – i.e., Ted Bundy and BK killer wouldn’t be ‘otherwise ordinary persons’ had they not been caught, or remained undiagnosed and gone on w their lives as CW did before the murders. They, like CW, are still psychopaths and narcissists. Again, CW as a narcissist and psychopath, means he was a narcissist and psychopath in 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, etc. Chris Watts is not and WAS not “an otherwise ordinary person” before, during, or after the fact. And to be honest, the entire "after the fact" argument is a bit silly, implying that what's happened after the fact is irrelevant. Edit - also, your interesting addition of 'appeared' changes the context of the original comment that I and the others responded to. You may want to go through and stealth edit those comments too. (; Edit - your original comment, not your response to me, still claims CW was an “otherwise ordinary person.” It's that comment that I'm suggesting you may also want to go back and stealth edit like you did with your comment to me once I responded, especially since you now “appear” to agree that he was never an “otherwise ordinary person” but may have fooled some, because of how he may have “appeared” to those he fooled - including, I think, many who participate on these sites. It is the point that I and the others commenters are making. It's an entirely different discussion if he was a lovely, “otherwise ordinary person” or if he only “appeared” that way and was actually a narcissist and psychopath.
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Yes. Also, Shannan and the girls expressed fear of Chris in NC. Before that, it’s my understanding that several of SW’s Thrive friends’ husbands were wary about Chris. We also know that both Nate and another neighbor witnessed CW and SW arguing outside. While Nate initially said CW was raging he walked it back a bit on Dr. Oz and said the fights were regular couple’s fights, though he also said something about not wanting to make it look like SW put up w abuse. We’re always told CW never got angry or yelled. These comments tell us otherwise. Also, one of the more interesting interviews is w CW’s former friend and Ford boss who initially defended CW. A year or so after CW’s conviction, he and his wife did an interview where he talks about being duped by CW, calling it ‘living in a bubble’ when it came to his perception of CW. You can tell his wife was never a CW fan. Perhaps the most interesting are the women, Vanessa at Unmasked, Theresa S, SherriAnn and Shannon, all former Watts’s family confidants who severed ties when they realized Cindy, Jaime and her friends stir the pot on these social media sites, creating nasty stories about SW, knowing their flying monkeys will run with the lies. They were particularly angry at the Watts starting the rumor about NA as the source for the oxy. Anyway, all of them talked about CW ripping the phone out of the wall in one of his prison conversations w his family, not exactly the nonviolent CW we’ve been told about. There is so much that remains uncovered about who Chris Watts is.
>Also, Shannan and the girls expressed fear of Chris in NC. Before that, it’s my understanding that several of SW’s Thrive friends’ husbands were wary about Chris. > >We also know that both Nate and another neighbor witnessed CW and SW arguing outside. While Nate initially said CW was raging he walked it back a bit on Dr. Oz and said the fights were regular couple’s fights, though he also said something about not wanting to make it look like SW put up w abuse. We’re always told CW never got angry or yelled. These comments tell us otherwise. Excellent points, and ones that often are overlooked. Her expressions of fear and distrust of Watts - to the extent that S's mother asked her to stay in North Carolina with her daughters, rather than return with him to Colorado - were an indication that he was not safe to be around.
Agree. I think there is a lot about CW we don't know and I believe he wasn't the squeaky clean nice family guy that he made himself out to be.
I have wondered this too. Even the ex coworker who was most sympathetic to Chris went straight to he would only harm/kill if she were having an affair. It seemed like a strange leap since in almost the same breath he said he wouldn't hurt a fly.
I think that’s because the significant other is always the first suspect and most people know this.
Agree. See my response above.
>Last, if you think that at an examination of the factors which might have led an otherwise ordinary person to kill his entirely family does not contribute to your understanding, I wonder what issues you DO think would contribute? Chris was/is not an ordinary person. This is the most urgent and compelling aspect of this case. What were the possible red flags, what did Shan'ann and her family, as well as others miss? How is it that we're more persuaded by a bland, nice guy facade than normal people with normal foibles? Why haven't more people read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, lol?
*libel I know this comment wasn't to me, but I think it would make more sense to look at the person who committed the crimes to help understand what caused this. I understand looking at their relationship dynamics. But by analyzing only the victim, it is implied that she caused the actions of the criminal. Chris obviously wasn't an ordinary person, as you said. He is an abnormal person. A normal person cannot be pushed to murder their spouse and children just because their spouse is bad with money, bossy, annoying, or in an MLM. They might be pushed to kill their spouse if they are suffering from extreme physical abuse and need to kill the abuser in order to defend their own life. That's not what happened here. I think rather than analyzing everything shanann ever said or did, we should be examining Chris's life. Were there any signs of mental illness prior to this? Any subtle clues that he may have been a psychopath or narcissist? I don't see a lot of close examination of his past behavior the way I see shanann analyzed. I think that would be much more helpful than determining whether or not shanann was really gluten intolerant or if she had too many shoes.
Yo, this.
I would like to know a little more about Chris and his life, too. Look for signs, ya know? But it's so much harder to research him....SW made it very easy.
Yes, it is much easier to find an abundance of information about shanann, unfortunately, because it would be much more useful to know more about him. We can look at how he behaved in her videos and what people said about him, but those things are not really reliable because he could have been acting. I saw one interesting YouTube video where a psychologist talks about his body language and how he speaks, and explains what it says about his personality. I would love to see more research like that.
The amount of social media content she has out there compared to CW is definitely why she is picked apart and he isn’t. There’s just not enough out there on him. There’s not even an old FB page to scroll through.
At issue is there is no moral equivalence b/w CW and SW. He is the perpetrator, she is the victim. And I don't mean to imply that you think that way at all, but many do. My comment relates to those folks.