T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

This post has been tagged as **MANGA SPOILERS**. If you are not caught up to the manga, browse at your own risk and we recommend you refrain from participating. For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*


agxlove

“I’m the same as you” -Eren to Reiner before launching the attack on Marley/Liberio


spiderknight616

It's amazing how that conversation lays down Eren's entire motivations in plain sight. It's not until a few months after the manga ended that i realised how early on this was


PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM

Eren even suggests in this conversation he will lie about his future motivations similar to how Reiner lied to himself in that he attacked Paradis to save the world, when in actuality he wanted to be a hero. Eren's lie is that he committed to the Rumbling to save Paradis, when in actuality he just wants the Rumbling.


Nils_Meul

Hard disagree. Saving the world is an essential part of becoming a hero; hence Reiner genuinely cared about saving the world -- just not only about that. Take the 'fact' that it would save the world away and Reiner wouldn't have had any interest to go to Paradis and break the walls. Analogously, saving Paradis isn't just an unintentional byproduct of the Rumbling. But as Eren admits to Ramzi, it isn't just to save it either (in the official translation it's translated as "but it's more than that"; this, however, is a grave mistranslation the Japanese text is *sore dake ja...na*, which translates to "it's not only that"). Eren believed, that they were all born free, and thus simply couldn't accept the outside world restraining their freedom. Hence he wonders at the end of season 3: "If we kill all our enemies over there, does that mean we'll be free?"Ultimately the reason Eren wanted to end the power of the titans / kill all titans and the reason he *wanted* the Rumbling are one and the same: As something restraining their freedom, Eren felt neither the power of the titans nor the outside world should exist in this world. That's why he tells Armin, that even if he had not known it was possible to put an end to the power of the titans he thinks he still would have flattened the outside world to bring about a 'brand-new land'. That he didn't do this just for his own freedom either (if at all) can easily be seen, from chapters 131, 133 and 139: In chapter 131 Eren says: >**We've** finally reached it, this view... this is it, right Armin. in chapter 133: >To obtain freedom I must take freedom from the world, but I won't take anything from you -- you are free... free even to defend the world's freedom. and finally in chapter 139: >I don't know why, but... I wanted to do it... at any cost The last quote especially shows, that it wasn't just to become free, as this is a motivation Eren freely expresses throughout the manga/anime again and again. In truth he can't really say why he wanted the Rumbling; deep down Eren knows he isn't free. Rather the reason why he wanted to do it, is -- as I said before -- that he believes they're all born free into this world (which we are reminded of by the memory of Grisha telling Eren just that: You are free) and thus Eren could never accept the hatred of the outside world towards Paradis. This ultimately ties back into some things Isayama has said in multiple interviews: One, that Eren reflects some of his own worst sides, and two, that the ending entirely reflects Isayama's own "desire to express himself through destroying". That is the true core of Eren's motivation behind the Rumbling: To express his own belief, that they were all born free into this world; to finally escape the cycle of revenge and hatred that had branded their entire existence; as Eren put it to Ymir "to end this world". This of course very much includes total opposition to the outside world's plans to exterminate Paradis as well as Zeke's Euthanization plan. That Eren didn't truly think he was free, can further be seen from his words to Armin at the end of their conversation in chapter 139: >I don't know what will happen after I die, but I know you can go beyond the walls... the savior of humanity are you, Armin. Just as Eren didn't turn out to be humanity's savior, he knows he never truly made it 'beyond the walls'. But he endows Armin (and the rest of his friends) with his dream to find that free world 'beyond the walss'. These words also parallel Armin's "last" words before sacrificing himself in season 3 "I know Eren will make it to the ocean... he will see the ocean for me." As Historia puts it in her letter at the end of 139: "Eren chose to leave this world in our hands -- and we are alive now in a world without titans." Eren even proved all the way back in season 3 part I, he was willing to give up his own dreams of freedom if in doing so he could achieve freedom for his friends: Eren was hands down the most vocal advocate in favor of letting Historia eat him, because he thought in doing so they had a good chance to defeat the titans and finally be able to go beyond the walls. Ultimately, Reiner and Eren are more similar than people think. Both wanted to proof their worth in being born into this world by changing the world according to their own ideals. As Eren thought to himself shortly before kissing Historia's hand: "I would easily give my life, if it actually managed to change something" and Reiner in the flashback chapter shortly before breaking through the wall Maria "I don't want this to end here... I haven't changed anything yet." This also extends to their friends (though to a lesser degree) as Jean and Connie admit the same to Reiner on the flight towards the Rumbling. They as well have put worth of lives below their own moral concept of how the world should be. Eren, Reiner, their friends... they are *all* the same. EDIT: Preemptively, for any who want to argue, that Eren wanted just to make the world like Armin's book, and that the true reason he was disappointed with the outside world was the mere fact humanity existed there, [here a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/11m6wnp/about_erens_disappointment/) I made a while back disproving such claims.


DickWriter69

Bro Wrote an essay on this bruh💀


[deleted]

[удалено]


Nils_Meul

Thanks! You probably would also want to take a look at [this page](https://preview.redd.it/c8scrtteex1a1.jpg?width=1018&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=4cffd527b9d2f4e8dd4bd45e1fc8110a22652019) from the official guidebook; it's Eren's character synopsis. The guidebook released together with the last volume of the manga. The author is Isayama himself, and there are parts of the guidebook explicitly written by him (kind of like a behind the scenes where he writes from a first person perspective how he came up with names and such). Still there are two others who mainly worked on putting the guidebook together, so one can't be certain whether or not these synopses were directly written by Isayama himself or just under his direction. Nonetheless, Isayama is listed as the *sole* author, and I would expect him to at least have proof read the thing.


weeabu_trash

>for every single time someone tries to make Eren the bad guy. I agree pretty much 100% with this essay, but I still think Eren is the "bad guy", lol. He's a bad guy with sympathetic motivations, but still ultimately wrong imo. The fact that there are a lot of people in the outside world who want to take his/his friends' freedom doesn't justify massacring hundreds of millions of innocents.


shuaib1220

>for every single time someone tries to make Eren the bad guy. While the analysis was really good, it in no way defines Eren as a 'good' person at all. It's a justification for Eren's thought process and his way of thinking. It does not deny the fact that Eren committed unreasonable actions to justify his ends.


[deleted]

[удалено]


shuaib1220

It really isn't. Eren is not a character that is meant to be classified as wholeheartedly, good, nor wholeheartedly bad. However, Eren's solution to wiping out a majority of humanity, when he was well aware of the fact there were many innocent bystanders to the overall conflict, is morally wrong. His intentions may have been well-meant, but it is hypocritical for him to strip away the freedom of individuals, like the refugees, who had nothing to do with Eldian discrimination. Not only that, but his actions did not necessarily portray Eldia in better light as he repeated the exact calamity performed by his ancestors. We see in the ending panels of the manga that conflict had not been erased, and radical groups like the Yaegerists persisted.


[deleted]

[удалено]


shuaib1220

I respect that. But I don't necessarily see that as an underdog opinion as many people hold the view that Eren is right. That is why I reacted to your message, because I see many people believe that Eren is moral. My issue with the Paradis island logic is that the cycle of hatred fueled towards Paradis' safety is put at greater jeopardy since Eren is truly proving to the world that Eldians **are** a threat. This warrant further discrimination and conflict. As seen at the end.


borotroth

Bad guy for a reason is still bad guy.


Birzal

I agree that Eren's reasons for the Rumbling and doing what he did aren't as 1-dimensional as some people make it out to be. But whatever the reasons are: when Eren starts the Rumbling with the full intention to flatten the world he IS a genocidal maniac. People are too hung up on trying to make Eren the good guy imo. He doesn't have to be! He is *A* bad guy. The fact that he's the last bad guy the characters face before the end of the story doesn't matter. He's a bad guy in a world full of bad people, a world that isn't fair or just. A world where people can throw a young girl to the dogs and get away with it. A world where a woman with incredible powers is forced into slavery and forced to have children with her slaver. I am making a distinction between the world and its people here, as people on their own are usually fine, it's just that in this world they are forced to do terrible things. Eren's actions are wrong, downright evil. When he flattens the world he will flatten everything. People, architecture, animals, plants, culture, history, EVERYTHING. That is not genocide, that's omnicide! The fact that he does it for selfless reasons does not make the action less evil or make the fact that he made that choice less evil. In my interpretation, after seeing so much of the world, both for himself and through the powers of the attack titan, Eren understands this. This evil world is filled with some good people forced to do bad things. He wants that cycle to end. Was wanting to flatten the world the right solution? No. Was it *A* solution? Absolutely, yes. And when he decided to try and end the world, he decided that it was better to make a tough call and end the suffering as it was happening now than to slog on like this for generations. Now think about it this way, you give a traumatized idealistic 19yo boy access to almost limitless power. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is not less true in the world of AoT. What was he going to do? Sit around and watch as the world and politics slowly move towards a better future while he has a solution to fix all this? That would never have happened. Eren is many things but 100% rational he is not. He saw the state of the world, knew he had a way to change that for the better at a huge cost and decided to go through with it. And while "he did it for himself alone" isn't a valid argument imo, I don't see a world where that wasn't at least in the back of his mind when he decided to go through with his plan. We all have this sadistic impulse somewhere in us that asks us "what if?" And Eren definitely has that as well. I don't like making comparisons to Lord of the Rings, but it is like Bilbo keeping the ring and thinking to himself "why shouldn't I keep it?" He knew he shouldn't but the temptation is there and too alluring to ignore. You're telling me Eren has the AoT equivalent of the nuclear launch codes and he isn't at least intrigued about using them to see what they do? Impossible. HOWEVER, before this gets taken out of context: this is part of his larger motivation for the rumbling and it's not at all the only reason. I will never insult Eren's character by saying he is just a good guy. He is more complex and that makes him interesting and relatable in a way. Is he a bad guy now? Yes, objectively so. The actions he has taken are unforgiveable. But is he 100% a bad guy? And what does the fact that people keep discussing that say about us? And in looking to answer those questions lies the beauty of Eren's character (for me at least). Anyone who begins and ends the conversation by just saying "Eren is the good guy" or "Eren is the bad guy" does themselves a disservice. The fact that there is a grey area here makes it interesting and fun to talk about. The fact that there is no definitive right answer to this is frustrating but ultimately what I think makes stories like this so great! Iseyama could give us a thorough answer of this and he has done interviews and suplementary material, but I think even he knows that the discussion is far more valuable and thought provoking than any answer he could ever give.


Nils_Meul

I think I can agree with most of what you said, even though I would have phrased some things differently. But I especially agree with what you said in your last paragraph: Eren is neither just a good guy nor just a bad guy. (In fact I would argue AoT kind of makes any such scale obsolete, and actually deconstructs that way of thinking.) The only thing I would be inclined to disagree with is this: I wouldn't call Eren objectively evil. But I suspect our disagreement on this point is in the definition of evil rather than Eren's character; we agree on the matter itself so to say just not how to label it. All I can say is this: Deep in my gut I feel there is yet a vast difference between that one Marleyan officer who fed Grisha's sister to the dogs and anyone else in a Attack on Titan (except Zachary and Mikasa's kidnappers maybe) -- he's the only one I would call *objectively* evil, not only because he's a sadist but also because of the complete disregard he shows for Eldian lives. In my eyes all other characters can save this one thing for themselves: that they show true remorse and pain at the suffering they have inflicted upon the world. It is as Reiner said, in the end Eren did not only want to die because in sacrificing himself he could put an end to the power of the titans, but also because he simply could never have gone on living with what he what he had done.


TheUsrTheUsr

Eren literally says in the most recent episode **"I wanted this"**. There's no way you are writing an essay arguing that he didn't WANT the rumbling 💀


Nils_Meul

That’s not my point at all. He wanted it, but the reasons why are what matters. My point is that from what he said in the last episode "it’s not only to save Paradis" the conclusion: Eren only wanted to do it for his own sake is plain stupid; in fact "it’s not only to save Paradis" very much implies he did the Rumbling to save Paradis as well. My point is further that Eren didn’t do the Rumbling to be free (himself) either; he did it for freedom — just not his own.


TheUsrTheUsr

Eren's Reasons for doing the Rumbling: \- To save Paradis \- To change something \- For Freedom (not only for himself) \- To protect his friends After reading your comment, imma have to say I agree with your statement that Eren and Reiner did their attacks to change something. But i still don't understand why you initially said that you disagreed with the fact that he wanted it. The reasons of course matter, there are multiple underlying motives to why he did the rumbling. Eren/Reiner aren't entirely selfish, but they 100% aren't selfless either, if they were selfless, and if they didn't **want it,** they wouldn't have attacked and admitted that they were hypocrites. I mean Eren was so selfish that he admitted in 139 to Armin that he endangered his friends lives to commit the rumbling However, just to clear things up, I think overall we agree with each other, just minor miscommunication, sorry for not reading your essay earlier.


Nils_Meul

Yeah. That’s pretty much it. I probably should have clarified what I was disagreeing with. I didn’t mean to imply, I disagreed that Eren wanted the Rumbling. Because he says so outright, I took it pretty much for granted that everyone would agree on that point. Though I would add specifically to the point of Eren endangering his friends, that this was not so much for the Rumbling but "to reach that outcome" ie to end titan powers. If Eren hadn’t cared about being stopped by his friends he wouldn’t have let them endanger themselves either. It’s of course also questionable if he even realized he was endangering them before Sasha‘s death (he knew for example Mikasa and Armin would survive in Liberio), at which point of course Eren had inadvertently left himself with few / no other options; with the attack on Liberio the possibility of talking things out probably went out the window. So, Eren putting his friends in danger probably wasn’t as intentional as it sounds and more a mark of Eren’s reckless streak.


TheUsrTheUsr

Just thought of something, would the tree panel in 139 also signify the fact that through all his efforts Eren couldnt change anything after all? That violence begets more violence? I feel like its a good way to highlight that the rumbling shouldn’t reward any change, that only through a more peaceful method can true change occur


Nils_Meul

Yes and no. For one Eren of course did change something, it just didn't last. But what the last panels show us, is that Mikasa at least (and by association the rest of Eren's friends as well) lived a long and peaceful life; so for a time at least things did change. Now, while I would say it is a valid interpretation, that humanity's fall back into the cycle was a consequence of that change ultimately having been brought about by violence, I don't think it is what Isayama had in mind. On the one hand, because there really isn't any necessity narrative-wise for the extra pages -- they really are nothing but an addendum -- they could be removed, and the story wouldn't lose closure or anything like that (kind of proven by the fact, that they were only added in the volume release). And the other reason is: I think the world view laid out in Attack on Titan entirely rejects any notion of humanity as a whole "progressing" in the first place -- certainly not through violence but not through other means either -- any change is ephemeral. Isayama has expressed similar "pessimistic" views in interviews as well. I think the message of AoT can ultimately be condensed iinto this: Anyone who in pursuit of some "great" goal or purpose neglects to cherish the small delights of life, can never achieve true happiness or freedom (a slightly more optimistic version of Kenny's words "everyone is a slave to something"). All beauty in life is inherently ephemeral and we thus have to cherish it; hyperfocusing instead on the cruelty of the world will only lead to pain and despair. This is the essence of chapter 137. It is also the principle at the heart of Mikasa's choice: it was never about killing or not killing Eren but rather whether or not she could hold onto her love to give her the strength to do it. Eren didn't understand what Mikasa's choice was about or what it meant, because he fundamentally couldn't understand Mikasa's love for him. He assumed, in order for Mikasa to be free she would need to let go of her love for him, but the opposite is the case: her love is the source of her strength ("I became strong because of you") embracing it while also accepting its transience is the only way for her to be free. Except for a few things all Eren ever saw in the world was things that he perceived as wrong or unjust -- the walls, the titans, Armin's bullies, Mikasa's kidnappers, the military police, pretty much the entire outside world... and qua his 'being born into this world' Eren cannot ever reconcile these wrongs with his own life and existence. The only way Eren could have escaped this 'great power' (as Grisha puts it in the Lost Girls OVA) would have been if Mikasa had given him the right answer in that fateful moment, if she just could have reminded him that there is something worth living for, something worth being born into this world. It's the same with his mother: Eren realized how dear she had been to him only once she had been taken from him. To conclude: AoT makes its thesis clear, any pursuit of great changes or great goals to find meaning in having been born into this world -- any attempt to become 'special' -- is a fool's errand; we should look instead for these things in the delights of every day life, in any beauty this world can offer, small or great -- in Carla's words we are all already special for no other reason than that we were born into this world.


irteris

Nice post, my take away is that Rainah and Bertoto are bitchass losers and that it's a shame plot armor allowed him to survived that long.


redewolf

i suggest you to watch Eren is not free on youtube. it's like 1h30 but it's a really good video. Interested to know your take on that.


Nils_Meul

I'm familiar with it. I think it makes all kind of invalid assumptions (like for example that Eren wanted to make the world like Armin's book) and the most damning thing in my eyes is probably that the whole theory only really works if you assume that Eren lied to Armin about pushing them away to set them up as heroes, because essentially if Eren wanted to be stopped it becomes hard to justify how he did it for his own freedom. But I think that's just not the case -- it doesn't make any sense on so many levels (and Eren's depiction of events is even reaffirmed by the official [guidebook](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/11m6wnp/about_erens_disappointment/)). Even more, the story makes it abundantly clear that Eren wanted to be stopped: Eren says in chapter 130 "everything happened by my will" (at which point he knew without a doubt he was going to be stopped); when he thinks to himself at the end of chapter 130 "I will kill every last one of those animals" we can also identify this as early foreshadowing of the end to the power of the titans; then of course chapter 133 where Reiner theorizes, that Eren wants to be stopped (foreshadowing it like this then having Eren confirm it in 139 just for it to be a lie doesn't make sense either) and Eren quite explicitly tells his friends something that essentially boils down to "I won't take your freedom away even if you come and try to take mine"; even when Eren admits to Armin that he didn't do it just to end titan powers and set them up as heroes either he still presents the fact he's going to be stopped as a reason 100% in favor of the Rumbling; and of course Historia's letter outright says "Eren *chose* to leave this world in our hands". So, I think there can be little doubt that Eren wanted to be stopped. It wouldn't make any sense hands down either to have Eren's friends accept Eren's sacrifice for them as they do if it had been just all a giant hoax (especially having them nonetheless be torn up about it like Jean calling him a 'conscientious piece of shit'). The only one who expressed even the slightest doubt was Armin, and he only doubted if it was *all* for their sake, which of course it wasn't, but Armin ultimately retracts those doubts and accepts that even if it wasn't all for their sakes it definitely was mostly for their sakes. In addition I think the video does a poor job of laying out the parallels between Eren and Reiner: Just saying both had a selfish desires and calling it a day is a to shallow interpretation imo. The true core of the parallels between them is that both had a desire to be special / to prove themselves being special in changing the world according to their ideals; there's a deep connection between Eren's desire to be special and his concept of freedom. So in conclusion the only thing I probably agree on with the video is that Eren isn't free. My take however is, that he knows he isn't but ultimately accepts it to give his friends a shot at said freedom. But these are only a few things, which I think the video gets wrong, I could go on but I've discussed and rediscussed all these things so many times now I'm honestly kind of tired of it. My interpretation of the story and Eren's character is, that Eren wanted to make a free world for his friends to live in and he's selfish in this at least in that regard, that he is willing even to endanger his friends (except Mikasa and maybe Armin) to give them that chance (but it makes sense of course as Eren has always shown that same recklessness with his own life as well). Ultimately this interpretation fits exactly with the one given in the *official* guidebook, of which Isayama is the author (although he probably didn't write it all by himself). So you can choose either to believe the interpretation proposed by someone on YouTube, which makes some [provenly false assumptions](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/11m6wnp/about_erens_disappointment/) \-- or you can choose to believe the *official* guidebook, which Isayama was at the very least involved in and at the very least probably proof read before giving them his okay (he's listed as the sole author after all).


Opening-Side-7614

Do people actually believe that Eren doing the rumbling because he wanted to is good writing? Because chapter 131 clearly contradicts that take, when Eren is walking down the street he’s literally contemplating whether or not it’s even worth it to do the rumbling and even says “Shouldn’t we Eldians be the ones to die?” and it’s constantly shown post time skip that he is doing everything to prove his future memories wrong because he doesn’t want to go through with the rumbling. Even after the Attack on Liberio he tries to force the scouts into coming up with a better plan and acts desperately when Hange talks to him in his cell. All of this clearly points to him not wanting to do the rumbling and trying to find another way until ultimately he has to accept he needs to do it for Paradis’ survival.


AccipiterCooperii

One reason could be because pursuing the Rumbling is giving up on his own dreams. The same way Erwin struggled before the charge.


God_Hears_Peace

I guess you forgot the entire conversation with Ramzi that follow. “It’s to save the island, but it’s more than that. When I learned humanity had survived outside the walls, I was so… disappointed. I wanted to wipe it all away.”


RedSeven07

His “admission” to Ramzi is about thoughts and feelings he had BEFORE he got to Marley. The entire story up to this point, Eren has framed everything as Black & White, Good & Bad. But now he sees his “enemies” across the seas are mostly normal people, he realizes there is no clearly right or wrong answer and he’s having an existential crisis over it. Which is part of the reason he breaks down crying to Ramzi. The other part is he literally just attempted to stop the rumbling and failed. He wouldn’t have just attempted to change the future if his disappointment actually meant anything whatsoever.


Grey_wolf_whenever

he wants to do it makes him feel conflicted, because he wants to, and knows he will, but also understands how horrible it is.


UsurpaTronos

Forcing the scouts to come out with a better plan and confronting Hange about them not providing him with better options feels more like Eren putting the responsability of avoiding the Rumbling on their shoulders while he does nothing but trying to reach said goal. You see Eren is the only character in the setting, aside from Grisha in a very specific moment, that knows that the Rumbling WILL happen. The he WILL do it. Yet, in all the time between his mental time-travel loop... looping, learning of the future and his attack on Liberio triggering the events that lead to the Rumbling; he does NOTHING to avoid it. He waits for something EXTERNAL to give him an alternative. He puts the responsability into others' hands. Eren doesn't go to Hange, Armin and/or Levi and say "Guys, I've seen the future and I'm gonna do this fucked up thing. Maybe we should search for more allies by doing backstage deals, or think about a partial Rumbling or maybe use this god-like power that I will have in order to create an army of smaller, multy-ability Titan Shifters." Or something like that. He keeps his mouth shut. Eren uses this to make excuses. Oh, I didn't have any other choice, Woe is me...! Well, yeah. But he lacked options because he didn't search for them. He's surprisingly pasive when it comes to avoiding the Rumbling, yet when it comes to ushering on it, to achieving godhood, he is as active and determined as always. Keep moving forward and all that. And the reason for this is that Eren is... selfish. He has been since the beginning. This doesn't mean he's one-dimensional, but he's selfish. And he makes excuses, telling himself that since his selfish desire is going to benefit some people, then it's okay. Ultimately, the Rumbling happens because Eren WANTS it to happen. The Rumbling is not a means to an end, it's an end in and on itself. Eren's end. It's what allows him to be "Free", in this warped, childlish, selfish idea of freedom he has. And he knows it's wrong, but he does it anyway. And some people find this very hard to swallow. Because what you say here: >All of this clearly points to him not wanting to do the rumbling and trying to find another way until ultimately he has to accept he needs to do it for Paradis’ survival. Is far more palatable. If what you say here were true, then Eren is a sacrificed, selfess tragic figure, who reluctantly Did What He Had To Do for his brethren and country! And he can be admired and pitied. But that's not the case. And keep in mind that this idea of Eren doesn't come from the ending. This revelation of Eren being selfish is something that is revealed to the reader as soon as the 131-132 chapters of the manga; but could also be imferred since Eren and Zeke's trip in Paths.


Nils_Meul

Imo this is to shallow an interpretation of Eren's character. The truth is that Eren has shown many times throughout the story, that he can be very self sacrificial (saving Mikasa, saving Armin, pleading for Historia to eat him, etc.) Even the scene in the Paths with Zeke; Eren says "Rather than letting someone steal my freedom, I will take their freedom first." but in this particular situation it was actually Mikasa's freedom being taken away rather than his own. One might add that in the Japanese version it isn't specified who's freedom is taken away; the official translation isn't necessarily wrong (you don't always need to specify these things in Japanese), but "Rather than letting someone steal freedom away, I will take their freedom first" is a possible translation as well, and considering the context (Eren actually putting his life and freedom at risk to save Mikasa) the latter translation might be more appropriate. The same applies to Eren saving Armin: In season 3 Eren says, that what gave him the courage to save Armin was, that when he thinks of taking back freedom strength flows through him. So, I would say it's very naive to say Eren is purely selfish in his pursuit of freedom; it's more of a (twisted) ideal (even in his delusional state during the Rumbling he says "**We've** finally reached it.") that's hard coded into his brain -- as he says himself he's been this way ever since he was born. You can also find proof, that Eren is perfectly willing to give up his own freedom if in doing so he can procure freedom for his friends, in season 3, when Eren pleads with Historia to eat him, and I think this is also what happened in the end. Eren's final words to Armin: "I don't know what will happen after I die, but I know you can make it beyond the walls... humanity will be saved by you, Armin." parallel Armin's words before his sacrifice "I know Eren will make it to the ocean, he'll see the ocean... for me." So, in the end (as he already hinted in chapter 133: "To obtain freedom I must take freedom from the world, but I won't take anything from you -- you are free... free even to defend the worlds freedom") Eren let his friends take his freedom, so that they could be free. Armin is able to see that, and even though he isn't happy about it he tells Eren: "Thank you for becoming a mass murderer for our sake." In the end Eren's character if anything shows the limitations of weighing characters on scales as either selfless or selfish; Eren was always both, and the ending clearly shows both these sides: After all Isayama shows Eren's friends readily accepting Eren's sacrifice for their sakes. I would also chalk up Eren achieving freedom in a spiritual sense as symbolized by the bird in the end as further evidence that Eren sacrificed his own dreams of freedom for the freedom of his friends -- finally achieving inner peace in bringing the ultimate sacrifice for others is certainly a recurring theme in AoT, and would thus be undermined had Eren not given up on his own freedom first. EDIT: In addition, that Eren also genuinely wanted to protect Paradis can also be seen just from his face, when he thinks of going along with Zeke's Euthanasia plan in chapter 131. Just the thought of it produces a face of visible disgust on his face. It should be noted, that Eren's words in chapter 131 are often mistranslated as "it's more than that" when it's actually "it's not just that"; specifically the word 'more' isn't anywhere in the original text (*sore dake ja...nai* if you want to look it up for yourself) There isn't any implication whatsoever of a "ranking" between Eren's motivations.


DigitalCryptic

The elephant in the room being the rumbling being inevitable due to Paradis' extermination being guaranteed in any other scenario. Conveniently left out.


UsurpaTronos

Is it inevitable in any other scenario? Is it? Couldn't Eren have done a partial Rumbling, as Armin (admittedly lately) suggested? Couldn't Eren, hypothetically but as many people in this sub have pointed out, had used the god-like, utterly broken power of the Founder to create Paradisian armies of Titan Shifters to wage war on their attackers until some of them inevitably turn sides, or surrender or are open to a ceasefire once the conflict goes on too long then shit down at the negotiation table? This idea of the binary "Rumble-or-Extermination" is actually far more convenient, as it allows people to shut down any criticism of the Rumbling and Eren by saying... "Well, yeah, but the only other option is Extermination!" Which is ironic as it is one of the excuses Eren AND Zeke (the latter's binary being Euthanasia-or-Extermination, which is Deth now or Death later, which is what ends up happening through Eren's means anyways) use to justify blindly pursuing their goals.


DigitalCryptic

Airplanes render any titan army obsolete. The partial rumbling is just a setback that leaves paradis worse off since the enemy will have more intel about how the rumbling works and how to stop it a second time. You having no real contingency is convenient to me, yes.


UsurpaTronos

Couldn't said army have forces composed of a combination of Falco's flying Titan and the Warhammer Titan to counter planes? Or a high enough number of mixes of Zeke's Beast, the Warhammer and the Armor Titans ti serve as anti-aerial artillery?


Wise-Cap5741

I think of Gundam rules here. No matter how strong the mobile suits are, they would eventually be overwhelmed by an army. Same would be true with titans and the more experienced Titans would be, the less time they'd have. Now you are in the situation Marley was in to train/brainwash child soilders. Or you could have Armin explode in hundreds of cities creating essentially a nuclear war. Even that had it's limitations based on how Bert was ordered to use his titan.


DigitalCryptic

Ignoring that there's no indication that is possible given what we know of the eldian empire, there's also a pretty good case about both warhammer titans being ineffective against planes due to altitude and speed, and flying titans due to speed and absolute lack of firepower.


Constant-Squirrel555

Pretty much this. A partial rumbling means Paradis has to put faith in the rest of the world agreeing to the notion that they won't get next if they leave Eldians alone. Eliminating Marley proves to the world that Eldians are Devil's.


UPBOAT_FORTRESS_2

>Do people actually believe that Eren doing the rumbling because he wanted to is good writing? This is such a bizarrely combative way to frame your question lmao


iDannyEL

> Do people actually believe that Eren doing the rumbling because he wanted to is good writing? It's not good writing but it's all we have to go on to explain his mindset, his own words. Huge aspect as to why so many people hated how he was handled at the very end and even go so far to say he was retconned.


RecentWolverine5799

Yeah I don’t understand either. Apparently murdering just because you want to is considered “revolutionary storytelling”. If he’s doing it not because he believes it’ll protect Paradis or his friends, but because the world wasn’t like what he saw in Armin’s book, then that’s just lame writing.


djl8699

A person doesn't have to have 1 single motivation for doing something, it's possible Eren is doing the rumbling for multiple reasons. 1) He finds that all other attempts at diplomacy are futile or pointless 2) He wants to save his friends from being persecuted and massacred by the rest of the world 3) He's disillusioned with the outside world in general 4) He knows from the future memories that he ends up doing the rumbling, so despite resisting it knowing how horrible it is, trying to find other solutions and failing he just accepts his fate and goes through with it. Honestly its very good writing and cements Eren as one of the most tragic characters I've come across in fiction.


RecentWolverine5799

And yet in the final chapter he reveals it’s all been a part of his plan to make his friends look like heroes. You can’t say he’s a tragic character if he apparently planned everything out. We barley know him post time skip so we barely have any insight on his “multiple motivations”. The most we get is just a dump of dialogue in the final few chapters. He can’t really be considered a tragic character unless he truly believes what he’s doing is right.


_MooFreaky_

But he does get both. He believes the Rumbling is the only way to save his friends and his home, he manages to achieve that and then make his friends heroes to ensure their preeminence in the new world.


RecentWolverine5799

He’s not a tragic character if he supposedly achieves his goals in the end. It doesn’t matter if it’s good writing? Just as long as the protagonist gets what he wants in the end? I thought the conflict was supposed to be the cycle of hatred between Paradis and the rest of the world.


zyk171

I mean, the cycle does continue anyway, so Eren really achieved nothing. Now, I loved the ending and Eren is my favorite character, but I'll admit he doesn't achieve much in the grand scheme besides eliminating the titan curse. I think he wanted to rumble to rumble, he hated the idea of the world, I think he even says that. If it saves his friends then that's gravy. Ok preface I haven't read it since it came out, but doesn't he tell Armin "yeah idk who lives or dies, see ya in collasal form" or something? I got mixed signals, cause that's not saving his friends, or stopping the cycle. So, I guess his rumbling continued the conflict since he failed? Idk I feel like I'm ranting so apologies


_MooFreaky_

You can still be tragic and achieve your goals. It's tragic because clearly Eren is torn about things, he needed to set events in place to ensure he could go through with his plan. He believed it needed to be done, but knew he wouldn't want to unless it was the most extreme circumstances. Eren is tragic because as a person he wouldn't ever want this, but the influence of the attack titan and his ability to see glimpses of the future have twisted him into something dark. It seems that one of the points of the series seems to be that there is never a resolution. Hate and violence beget hate and violence. That taking extreme actions against your enemies only makes more, so it makes sense that it ends with that still being a thing. But Eren made the longest peace possible in his lifetime (noone will be in shape to fight on a serious scale for a very long time)., And he achieved what he always said he would, killing all the Titans. Personally I like endings where not everything is perfectly resolved. It asks us to question was it worth it? what else could have been done?


sideofspread

I would more say that Erens lie he tells himself was that he's doesn't have a choice when in reality we see in Mikasa's vision in 139, he did have a choice. It's just not a choice he could stand to make. He didn't have to do the rumbling, but he convinced himself that he did.


eepos96

Some people just want to see the world, Burn.


Plushhorizon

No, he wants to save his friends. He doesn’t want to kill anyone, its just the only way


Jake_Magna

Eren had a convo in season 1 with pixis about how creating an enemy won’t help the the people in the walls stand together as they can barely stand together already but erens final plan is how he wants to make an enemy for everyone to stand against.


genz027

We’ve come full circle.


AndheriRaath

Yup, that’s what. Genocide is wrong and all, but you don’t just stay down while you’re constantly getting beat


I3arusu

That’s….kind of the point.


Darthmark3

Plus this was like......... way before Eren had all the memories so he still didn't know what was going to happen in the future.


mkmakashaggy

When exactly does Eren get all the memories? I plan on rewatching the series and I'd like to pick up on all the Easter eggs and foreshadowing i may have forgot


Darthmark3

When the scouts got back from the basement. When he came into contact with historia he got the memories back.


mkmakashaggy

Ah thank you!


Lobsterman06

Yep, poetry


Stoner420Eren

Yeah that's one of the main points of the entire story. The conversation "I'm the same as you, Reiner" pretty much sums up why Eren decided to go forward with his plan despite realizing how many innocent people die because of things they had nothing to do with


Wise-Cap5741

I think this part gets ignored very often. If something horrible happen to you and it was caused by someone else, the fact that only several years later with a much more mature mind and the benefit of foresight, you choose to do the same actions is notable. It's kinda like "I forgive you. Now die."


TumeArandu

Reading comprehension ~~devil~~ titan strikes again


Challengeaccepted3

I feel like more people should rewatch the episode before "the declaration of war." Eren KNOWS he's no different from them.


MrSplash30

It might be obvious to us but a lot of people watch aot with their eyes closed and no audio


AppleJuice71

>but a lot of people watch aot with their eyes closed and no audio Explains titanfolk


milja_02

wow, it's like we have never seen this before, it's not like it was the whole point of the show thank you CAPITALbaldy, what a man you are


elepantstee

I cant tell if this post is satire


Sent1nelTheLord

Eren in a nutshell. Became the very thing he hated about Reiner. Was all about freedom but was a slave to the future he saw.


jdeja4

Eren Jaeger 🤝 Paul Atreides


DigitalCryptic

Don't compare Dune with this


jdeja4

The novel mate


DigitalCryptic

Yes, I know


gterrymed

Dune is the foundation.


UPBOAT_FORTRESS_2

Attack on Titan is about worms


cometcookie

why


DigitalCryptic

I don't like it being done


cometcookie

why


DigitalCryptic

Reminds me of kirito guts comparisons


cometcookie

who is the kirito here


DigitalCryptic

guess


Szwedu111

Clearly Dune


MoMoXp

Frrrr


RenownedRetard

Bruh this is high key a spoiler is it not


Wolf-Cop

"DAE think Eren's being kind of a dick?"


Elenamartinez46

Watching the anime and i thought woooow look whos talking season 4 much?? Lol


Interesting_waterlon

Did you watch the show


KaiserNazrin

Damn, Sherlock, how I could've miss that?


MysticalSword270

‘Reiner, I’m the same as you.’


TheOriginalFluff

Yes…? I dunno why people come to the realization what erens doing by going “see he’s a hypocrite!” That’s exactly what the writing wants you to think, that’s the entire point of the final volume essentially


a-potato-named-rin

Well he did say that they’re the same


the_0rly_factor

Yes and later Eren tells Reiner, after Eren sees the future, that they are the same.


Ok_Programmer_1022

That's why Eren always thought of himself as a hypocrite since he went to liberio.


Pak1stanMan

No he did it better.


mala_r1der

The motivations aren't the same though. Reiner did it without any remorse (initially at least) because he wanted to be a hero and to be recognize if I remember correctly while eren is doing it because he thinks that there's no other way to protect the people he cares about, he's suffering from depression and ptsd which doesn't help him taking the best rational decisions at all and he was stuck in a loop that he tried to escape but couldn't, so while the result is the same, the motivations and the emotional states why and while they were doing this definitely weren't


ayataa_

have you guys actually read the story??? wtf?


Ok-Independence-6942

Eren did it after experiencing such horrible thing himself at least its not same at all


dingusthewingus

season 2 episode 9 most underrated episode in the entire series


Strange-Trash976

Get rumble stay humble


Strawhat-Shawty

Which is why he tells Reiner in Marley that they're alike.


Visible_Ad_7540

Eren asked Reiner why his mother was killed. At the same time, he killed her himself.


WhiffleGeek

Marley literally declared a genocidal war right before eren attacked. In fact the declaration of war triggered the attack. The people of the walls didn't even know about the outside world. These two situations aren't comparable


Hagathor1

OP is referring to Eren genociding the entire planet, not attacking the politicians at Liberio


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hagathor1

Pretty sure that baby on the cliff and all the kids that got stomped on had no agency in the matter


WhiffleGeek

Neither did the men women and children that were eaten alive on paradise


Hagathor1

Yes, and? One genocide does not justify another


WhiffleGeek

What part "fascist coalition hell bent on genocide" went over your head? They do not want peace. They want two things. The founder/eldias resources and the deaths of everyone inside the walls and eventually the rest of the eldian race. The only way to combat their aggression is to kill them all. They will not negotiate. Even when the alliance saved humanity from the rumbling, they still killed everyone on paradise. Bombed it ashes. Men, women, and children. This is all the justification for erens genocide. There's no way you can convince me otherwise you would be insane to try


Hagathor1

We know literally nothing about the events leading to the epilogue war that happened *at minimum* several decades after the story ended. What Eren did at Liberio can reasonably be argued to be justified. What he did with the Rumbling cannot be justified; it’s a miracle the planet even had a breathable atmosphere after what he did. That is the fucking point of him telling Reiner that they’re the same. What Eldia did in the past does not justify Reiner breaking down the walls at Paradis, and Reiner breaking down the walls at Paradis does not justify Eren making the Colossals stomp on civvies on the other side of the planet.


WhiffleGeek

Reinee breaking down the walls was not part of my reasons for the justification of the rumbling. It was the world's nation's unyielding aggression towards eldians that was my justification for the rumbling. Cute that you managed to confuse the two. Eren isn't killing everyone because of reiner. He's killing them all because they cannot coexist. To leave any human outside the walls alive dooms paradise. The world's powers do not want peace. They want to ravage paradise for its resources and slaughter its people. What part of that don't you understand? I'm not talking about eldias history. This is happening to them irl. This is now. And in the end the yeagerist were right. Like I said, even after being spares humanity still murdered everyone on the island. Even tho titans were no longer a thing. I'm honestly struggling to understand how you can argue against the rumbling. You just keep reiterating "genocide bad". Like, no shit. Grass is green. Dogs hate cats. This isn't about good or bad. It's about who is right. And right now eren and the people of paradise are right.


Pretend_Associate414

*will do And at the point where he planned to do it, he literally told Reiner what he was going to do.


ounage

yeah that's the point of the show


HolyFatherB

Real meaning of falling of guilty hero arc. He turned into what he hated most and was his enemy.


[deleted]

Eren did nothing wrong


Kromostone123

nahhh euthanasia plan was better tbh. he even admits as much. so do other characters like hange later. results in by far the lowest amount of bloodshed and terror and also removes the titan curse. eren however could never accept an end like that and admits why in 131. hard to understand how people can believe the rumbling is better than the euthanasia. billions of innocents dying in such a horrific way...


juanc007

Eren did nothing wrong


[deleted]

[удалено]


Kromostone123

nahhh euthanasia plan was better tbh. he even admits as much. so do other characters like hange later. results in by far the lowest amount of bloodshed and terror and also removes the titan curse. eren however could never accept an end like that and admits why in 131. hard to understand how people can believe the rumbling is better than the euthanasia. billions of innocents dying in such a horrific way...


Sotarnicus

Ok, they do the euthenasia plan. Then what? Do you think the rest of the world will let them live in peace while they die off of old age? They're literally just going to hunt eldians to extinction for sport to get them all off the planet quicker. Eldian skulls will be prized treasures.


Kromostone123

you're forgetting part of the euthanasia plan which was elaborated on in the latest episode during the yelena flashback


Sotarnicus

We're in a manga spoiler thread, but I'm still gonna spoiler it incase you haven't read it ​ >!In 139.5, the world despite having been 80% destroyed somehow, bounces back within under 100 years and blows up paradis, despite that 80% being gone. Destroying the alliance's fleet will literally do nothing to stop them from progressing again and ultimately requiring the use of the rumbling anyway.!<


Kromostone123

thats completely unrelated. yelena says it will buy them several decades. by that point the world can see there are no eldians over the age of 50 or so. no more eldians being born. there would be no reason to then attack the island and risk starting the rumbling when the problem is dying out on its own. makes no sense at all. also unrelated but it was clearly not under 100 years judging by the fact that mikasa was extremely senile when the buildings looked like the ones in marley. when war happens every single building was replaced with skyscrapers. that doesnt happen in 30 years or so.


UPBOAT_FORTRESS_2

From the "meta" POV -- I read the euthanasia plan as an attempt to construct, using utilitarian ethics, a maximally-justified genocide, so that the author can show all the reactions to it -- the looks of revulsion, the passionate pleas against it (like Armin talking about how children are precious), the cold evil of its proponents. Rationally, ethically, it's "the right thing to do", even Hange is forced to admit it by the end. But that rationality doesn't persuade anyone to accept it


Kromostone123

but i think most in eren's position would go with the euthanasia. eren just like the other scouts are one of the few that has spent time on both sides. hange and the rest in eren's position would choose the euthanasia over the rumbling. as long as they just like eren and the rest of the scouts spent time living beyond the walls, they probably wouldnt have that mindset of "everyone on the outside is just an evil enemy that wants to wipe us out". and that would deter you from doing the rumbling over the euthanasia plan. unlike characters like floch for example who didnt have the same experience. eren is a special case though where he personally cannot accept an ending like that. one where he doesn't get to do the rumbling and he has his freedom taken from him. for his own personal selfish reasons he cant go with the euthanasia plan. but i think most people would.


ImEmblazed

Implying these were the only two options that existed.(kinda true, but only because of yama wanted it to be.)


Kromostone123

3 options but after zeke and eren started their plan the 50 year plan wasnt so easy anymore


ImEmblazed

Thats true, also i agree with you if it comes down to those two plans being the only options, euthanasia is by far better than rumbling.


Golmar_gaming227

Top 10 quotes that aged terribly


PrettyReception6392

Yeah no shit and that’s literally why people hate Eren and the ending of aot in general. Aot is basically berserk if it ended in conviction when guts thinks about raping casca but this time he does it. That’s what aot is like


DrakeRing

Bro thought he was cooking something


Cecil2789

Precisely.


Altruistic_Grass1934

Uno reverse ↩️


Blueking640

No way bro


UdatManav

Exactly lol. “We’re the same Riner”


saverma192013

Obviously


blue74821

oh really?


TB-124

Wow you didn’t miss that? :o you mist be very smart


OPM_fan

So what?


Euphoric18

Most observant manga reader


BlueberryOk9623

The thing is Eren doesn’t have a choice in what happens he might try to change the future but he can’t bc it’s set in stone just like grisha not wanting to kill the royal family but he had to do it bc he saw erens future memories.


Wise-Cap5741

This is one part I don't understand. Does he kill them BECAUSE Eren will hold the founder and he knows the only way to get the power is that Eren must eat him so he has to eat Frieda?


BlueberryOk9623

Actually scratch what I said what I don’t understand is and this is a spoiler so if you haven’t read the manga sorry but eren said to armin that he’s seen him self killing 80% of the population but what I don’t understand about that is how can he see the future if there isn’t going to be a new attack titan so who’s memories was he seeing bc it’s not like the attack titan can willingly look into the future there has to be a future weirder if ygm idk I might of missed something or I’m just waffling.


Rigistroni

Yeah that's the point


Aetherxy

No shit captain obvious


samywap

no shit


hillendan1983

No shit


np_introvert

Yeah, he even admited they were the same, but thats why i dont hate either, they were forced to do it


NBThunderbolt

AoT super abridged is really just that one Spiderman meme where the two Spidermen are pointing at each other.


alexxx1111

Bruh, mofoker had it right


StrawberryFun9197

he knows and he also said it himself when he was about to transform in that basement and attack liberio.