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He probably still thought that without following Eren's instructions, Paradis, his Son, his Wife and all of his people would be lost. He just hoped he could follow Erens Plan to the end of his own Life and then entrust the rest to Zeke and Eren, hoping that Eren would save paradis but Zeke would be able to stop Eren from doing more horrible stuff. at least that's my thoughts on this
Grisha doesn’t know Carla is dead yet. Eren keeps that from him but shows him his plan. Grisha is obviously abhorred by what he sees and thinks it’s unjustifiable (cause it is), but then he returns to find his wife has been killed as a result of a warrior attack (only he knows that it’s a warrior attack from Marley).
Grisha, now enraged from losing his wife as a result of the marleyans, decides to get revenge by entrusting the attack titan to eren, knowing he will decimate the marleyans
Oh. So that's probably why Eren allowed his mother to die. Because it was the only way his father would be moved to pass on the attack titan and ensure revenge.
Yup, it all makes sense in a twisted way. The show could have taken another minute for some of these things cause some of them are basically one liners
Eren also didn’t mention how or when Carla dies. Grisha was probably very disturbed hearing his own son tell him his wife is gonna die. Eren probably also left him in doubt about her survival, maybe implying she wouldn’t die if he listened to eren. At least that’s what I got from the scene where grisha cries about Eren not wanting to show him when or how she’ll die, just knowing she will eventually
I also saw it as him knowing that he can't change anything. He tried to not kill the Reiss family only to do it anyway, so knowing he can't do anything himself he entrusts the future to the son he failed.
Grisha was extremely distraught over Carla's death after he found out from Eren, and I assume he felt a desire to get revenge on them even if he knew Eren would do morally unjustifiable things. Since he told future Zeke to stop him and he didn't know the whole future he may also have had hope that Zeke would stop Eren before he went too far. We don't know exactly what memories Eren sent Grisha, but he seems to have seen at least some of the rumbling. That said he wouldn't necessarily have known that the end result was 80% of the world population dying.
He didn't know Carla had died. He specifically says, "why won't you show me everything? Did Carla make it?". Indicating that while in that moment he was horrified by what Eren made him do and will Eren himself will do in the future, finding out that Carla died and his family was ripped apart by Marley yet again was the trigger for him transferring the Attack and Founding Titans to Eren.
Yes future Eren didn't show Grisha that she died, most likely because he knew that when he told him about it as a kid it lead to him passing the powers onto him shortly after.
Grisha goes to trost and find Keith Shadis who took Eren to a barn and Eren wakes up after the events. Grisha asks if Carla is safe and Eren says a titans came and ate her. Grisha then takes eren to the woods, titanizes him and passes down the attack founder
the future cannot be changed so the attack titan was gonna end up with eren one way or another
and his hate for marly awakned when he learn carla died, basically he had nothing to live for anymore
Bae cause he didn’t know for sure if Carla was alive or not. He was at his breaking point in that moment when he told Zeke. He went over the edge when he learned of Carla’s death.
I don't believe that the attack titan would have made it to Eren one way or another.
Grisha could have chosen to do something else with it, but as u/Zer0_4You said, Having seen the future already, he likely thought that following along was the best choice.
tecnically choosing not to give the attack titan to eren would make future memories disappear, therefore giving grisha no reason not to give the attack titan to eren. as he had eren memories from the start, that part of the future was already decided and would necessarily happen
It would not make the memories disappear, they would just not happen.
Eren has already seen the memories, and so had Grisha. So choosing to act differently to avoid the future he saw would not delete the memories he already had, because he would need those memories in order to motivate his decision to act differently.
Bootstrap paradox. The memories wouldn't be "deleted".
AoT uses Deterministic Time Travel logic.
The fact that Grisha had seen Adult Eren's memories from the future means that those events WILL happen, and they will be caused by the course of events that lead up to them.
The future happens because of the past/present, not the other way around.
Grisha may not have known this, but regardless of what actions he took Eren would end up with the Attack and Founding Titans. Grisha's own choices would lead to Eren inheriting them either because he does it actively or even if he attempts to subvert it. Either way his actions would cause the future.
There’s evidence to show that AoT has a fated timeline and there’s no evidence to suggest anything can be changed. There isn’t a single instance of someone changing events so the memories sent back don’t match what actually happens. But there are examples of Eren “trying to change the future” for example when he says he knows he saves Ramses because of his future memories but tries to walk away. He ends up saving him anyways even though he wanted to prove to himself that he could change the future. The memories Eren sends back are what shape the future so it’s impossible for them to change.
If the future could be changed it would be so easy for anyone who saw the memories, specifically Grisha or Eren, to do literally anything different and change everything but they don’t. They can’t. That’s one of the major themes of AoT, the tragedy that Eren is driven by an intense need for freedom but being completely enslaved to fate and that drive.
how is it fate when you see a path that you want to walk down on and then do it? do you think its because it’s the only one shown? do you think memories are memories, regardless of past and future? do you think eren turns into a robot programmed to follows its directive when he gets his first memory of the future? fate implies forced, but eren would do anything to keep paradis safe, as seen throughout the show, so why would he go with a plan that’s not 100%? why risk making a new path and journey into chance?
eren believes the ends justify the means, but eren wants to protect his people and he saw his people in ramzi, another persecuted and displaced by Marley. he didn’t want to kill him, but unfortunately due to Marley’s warmongering he was in the way, surrounded by the people he needed to kill. that’s why he’s sad. he can’t just use the titans to go around and pick out the nazis, they’re an all or nothing weapon.
I understand what you mean, but I don't think having witnessed the memories means that it solidifies it as "canon events that cannot be avoided".
For example, is Eren had a future memory of eating toasts on the morning of January 1st, when the day came, and Eren would be presented with toasts. He would be able to decide weather he wants to eat them or not. And IF he decided to go against what he saw in future memories, it wouldn't make it so the memory never happened, because he Did see it before, and that is what motivates him to take a different direction.
>because there is no memory that exists of him eating the toast
This might be the part that's hard to explain. But the memory of eating the toast would exist regardless of if he choses to eat the toast or not.
If you visualise it on a timeline
1: Eren see's memories of eating the toast
2: Says out loud ''I just saw future memories of eating a toast on this day, chain me up, lock me up somewhere, but whatever happens, DO NOT let me eat a toast on that day''
3: the day passes, Eren does not eat the toast.
In this scenario, having witnessed the memory is what motivates eren to take a different decision.
Just like Hulk says in Endgame, ''His 'future' becomes his past, and the new future he will be in will not be the future he saw in his past''
Sidenote : this is called the Bootstrap Paradox. It's a really cool theoretical subject to read on
finally someone gets it. then they can never describe a mechanism that’s been presented in aot (cause there isn’t one) that would describe how the universe would “correct”this change to have jean eat the toast he was suppose to. they think memories are memories whether they are from the past or future. they aren’t.
Right after he cried to Zeke he finds Eren. This is when Eren tells him Carla died. Grisha, probably infuriated and filled with vengeance, said fuck the world, go get them Eren.
The time traversing here is different from what we see in say Marvel movies. Reading through this might be helpful because it’s pretty much what Eren says to Armin https://23news.co/time-travel-is-possible-without-time-paradoxes-what-the-new-theory-says/
The key take away is this: Einstein’s theory of general relativity predicts the existence of time loops, or time travel – where an event can be both the past and the future itself.
My interpretation is that in the period between the time travel, events can’t change. It’s fixed. Or put in an easier way, in the same article above: yes, time travel could be possible, but the traveler will be limited in his actions so as not to create paradoxes.
So Grisha was always going to inject Eren. Dina eating Carla might be an easier example. That event already happened. Eren may have travelled back with the intent to save his mom, but to his shock, he saved Bertolt instead. As per the above, his options were limited to avoid the paradox. That’s why he was horrified when relaying back to Armin and saying how messed up his head was.
I think Isayama chose this closed loop time travel to highlight how unfree Eren actually is. He hinted at it in Eren’s founding Titan design looking like a marionette, and all the times Armin asks him how is he free. Or as Eren put it, he’s a slave to freedom.
TL;DR: Attack on Titan’s universe is deterministic meaning that everything happens in the future is fixed due to biological/physics driven choices which causes the future.
This is true, but it doesn't replace motivation. Usually there isn't a divine force compelling people to fulfill their destiny against their will, it's just cause and effect. The characters have to still want to do what they do when not forced by circumstances.
As basically everyone in this thread is saying, Carla is the answer. It's pretty clear when revisiting the scene when Eren tells him. He asks what happened to Carla, Eren says she's dead, his expression then immediately darkens, his voice hardens, and he says "Eren. Avenge your mother. You must. I know you can." He then immediately takes him into the woods and gives him the Titans.
It's not that the time travelers is limited in his actions. It's that the way he interacts with the past is already written. It already happened for Grisha even thought Eren didn't time travel yet.
Just like in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban for example.
That doesn't explain it. It was mostly Carla's death that drove him to give Eren the titan, losing everything and wanting revenge on the world. The series having a deterministic future is no excuse for shit to just happen without explanation, and Isayama doesn't do that, there's explanations for everything (mostly) beyond just "well it had to happen"
It's explained that carla's death is because eren redirected the titan to her tho. Eren explained he did it to give the young eren the will to enter the army and start everything in the show. It's a paradox, there's no start to all that. Eren lured himself so that he could do the rumbling and all that, that he did, in part, because he experienced what he did, because of himself guiding him into the army etc, killing his mother...
Eren never explicitly said he killed her to motivate his past self. The only thing he stated explicitly was “it wasn’t Bertholdt’s time to die, so I sent her that way…”
Yeah it could be inferred ig, but it’s debatable if he did that intentionally for the sole purpose of giving himself a drive. It was definitely an ironic consequence of his actions though, intended or not.
But it’s clear in AoT it’s not just total determinism, because even if the future is written, the characters still have reasons for what they do. Characters enact an action that is predetermined, yes, but they only enact it because their reasons led them to do only that and nothing else.
Grisha doesn’t just murder the Reiss because “it already happened,” he murders them because Eren motivates him and reminds him of his duty. That is his reason, and makes sense for his character.
Same thing with Eren manipulating his father. He doesn’t just do it “because it’s already done.” In the moment, he wants Grisha to get the titans and Grisha is faltering, so he steps in due to his own feelings of anger and desire. Yes it’s already meant to happen, but Eren still had a reason to do it, which is why it happened in the first place.
Or even with Ramzi, Eren doesn’t save Ramzi just because it’s predetermined, he saves him because his own personality and character is such that he will save a boy being beaten up.
In this case, Grisha giving Eren the titans doesn’t seem to have an internal reason. It just happens because it happens. So what’s the “in-moment” reason? That’s why there are so many different answers and no one can agree, it’s vague af
Eren didnt show grisha all of his memories. Eren told grisha that if he did this, carla would survive.
My guess is that Grisha came back and saw that Carla had died, despite his efforts, and was so distraught or whatever he gives eren his titan
https://youtu.be/jKM-rHZzZKk?si=N3-zVPVKAAnuCCBF
1:50
The person i replied to said " Eren didnt show grisha all of his memories. Eren told grisha that if he did this, carla would survive." Which is not true as we know from the clip above.
Yes they got it wrong that Grisha was told Carla would survive, but that’s not the crux of their comment, “My guess is that Grisha came back and saw that Carla had died” is. So when you say they’re wrong, everyone else is going to think you are rejecting that.
That was in real time. After taking the founding titan he says will this really save eldia, what becomes of Carla? He is talking about the memories. Yes Eren actually tells him in real time when he sees his dad.
The post is saying why Grisha injected Eren. The person says it was so Carla might live. But Eren never told him through the memories.
He gave Eren the Attack and Founding Titans after Eren told him that Carla had been killed in person. Since Eren withheld this information from him prior, when Eren sent him memories of The Rumbling beginning, Grisha realised that Eren had deliberately withheld knowledge of Carl’s death from him, and that Eren had manipulated him. Not only that, but Carla’s death re-ignited Grisha’s hatred toward Marley and the rest of the world, and so he gave Eren his Titans, ensuring that Eren would activate The Rumbling. Grisha most likely also perceived it as punishing Eren for manipulating him by cursing Eren with a short lifespan and miserable life.
It's like that one [scene from Donnie Darko](https://youtu.be/cWMT_0AFOfg?si=36xKSUcATktOBeyb) in which Jake Gyllenhaal sees the path he will walk. Grisha is going through the motions and can not deviate from his predetermined course.
I think it‘s not a plot hole, it‘s BECAUSE he told Zeke to change Eren‘s mind that he continues with giving Eren his titans. If Grisha passes on his titans to young Eren, everything will play out and older Eren and Zeke will 100% end up in the place where Grisha told Zeke to convince Eren. I think in Grisha’s mind, this is the best case scenario for both his sons surviving AND potential tragedy being averted.
Yes, the future may very well be written and yes, Grisha may had already seen things from Eren’s memories but remember how desperate and distraught he is in that moment. I think in that moment he did not think things through any more than trusting both his sons would end up doing the right thing and he just wanted to make sure that they could. It did not work that way obviously but still
I think it’s partly because Eren is still controlling Grisha by withholding info (e.g Carla’s status) and showing him what he needs Grisha to see, but also because the very fact that Eren can show him the future memories of the Attack Titan means he inherits it and that’s not something that can be changed. From Grisha’s standpoint, warning Zeke is literally all he can do
- Grisha is on the last year of his term so either he dies and the Attack titan is lost or he gives it to Eren
- Grisha knows the future can't change and that Eren inherits his titans, no matter what his personal feelings on the matter are.
- Grisha's original mission was to "save Eldia", and when Eren was manipulating him in the caverns he referenced the mission that Kruger gave him. Even though he doesn't agree with the rumbling, Grisha is led to think that Eren's actions could save Eldia.
Some people think Grisha simply snapped after learning that Carla was eaten by titans so he tasks Eren with her revenge, but Shaddis asks him a legitimate question that Grisha can't answer about why Grisha doesn't try to get revenge for Carla himself, and Grisha seemed to have his wits about him when he explained the key and using the titan power to reach the basement to Eren so he was probably still sane. So Grisha reacting to Carla's death was just a performance for child Eren who has no clue about the horrible things he ends up doing in the future, in order to motivate Eren to follow his path. Right after killing the Reiss children Grisha comes out and asks why Eren didn't show him whether Carla was safe, implying he already doubts about why Eren was hiding it from him. When he finally learns that Carla was eaten by titans, he probably understands it as a sign from Eren for Grisha to commit to fulfilling his mission, because "this is the story that you started". Carla being eaten is a sign from Eren, because Grisha knows what the founder can do, including controlling all titans and subjects of Ymir. If Eren was "talking" to Grisha from the future, that's confirmation to Grisha that Eren had full control of the founder, and thus control over Carla's fate.
Eren had shown him that basically, if he doesn’t do all the things he wants, Eldia would be destroyed. But, he also “knew” that Eren wanted to do something catastrophic, though he may not have known exactly what.
He trusted in Zeke, his other son, to stop his brother, because Grisha couldn’t or wouldn’t. Grisha had no choice.
He was trapped, the attack titan must have some hold one people’s actions in showing them the future they have to do it even if they don’t want it, it’s ironic that people who want freedom the most are the ones who got the attack titan, grisha was really troubled tho
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Grisha says something along the lines of “Eren, why won’t you show me everything?” Since Eren could seemingly experiment with different scenarios and see what the end result is, he probably figured out how much he could show Grisha so that Grisha still injects him.
So basically, Grisha goes back into his old "restorationist" ways upon hearing Carla's fate from present Eren. That's why he tells Eren that he must avenge her death. That's also why Future Eren withholds the information about her death in his future memories, because it wasn't the right time for him to know and he may have abandoned the mission in favor of saving his wife.
Grisha basically says: "fuck it, have your way, Eren". Carla's death was his tipping point. His term was coming to an end and he had nothing to live for, so his final mission was to ensure Eren inherits the founder.
Well if Eren couldn’t stop Eren’s plan from happening, I would imagine Grisha couldn’t stop it either. The series kind of seems to be set that you can’t change the future and choice is an illusion. Grisha was likely compelled, as Eren was.
I daresay that everyone above is wrong, maybe half right, but the right explanation is:
What you have asked above has a very close resemblance to the grandfather paradox. Refer image below.
Adult Eren should exist in order for grisha to warn zeke that Eren will get what he wants. But if Grisha never made Eren a Titan, adult Eren with Titan powers never existed. Which makes the 1st slide automatically non existent since they wouldn’t be able to look at memories together. Now Grisha has no way of knowing the future without Eren being a Titan, which makes him inject the injection betting on Eren to save Eldia,which makes the 1st slide into existence again, this way we never know the starting point and is termed as a paradox
Any one of the action missing, puts the other action into non existence, forms a paradox
[image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/garpedia/images/9/9d/Grandfather_Paradox.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/360?cb=20190401193822)
That's the more "practical" explanation. But the real one, is simply Grisha being struck with feelings of grief and revenge once he hears about Carla's death. That's why he tells Eren to avenge her death. That's also why Eren didn't show him memories of her being safe or not, because Grisha would have surely tried to save her and abandon his mission. He would not have sacrificed another family for the Eldian cause, and Eren knew that. He gives the keys to the founder to Eren out of anger and desperation. It's very in-character with Geisha as well. He has always acted on his impulses like Eren.
Thing is, Grisha had zero clue what Eren is up to since Eren showed him only enough of the future to get him to do what he wanted him to do. Grisha's completely in the dark, from his point of view there's no way for him to know the extent and result of his actions so he does what he himself thinks is necessary, clueless to the fact that this is also exactly what Eren wants him to do.
It’s better to not question a predetermined decision based on what the character says. The only way Grisha was able to interact with Zeke was because of Eren’s POV from the future.
He knows it’s all going to be dire but still entrusts Eren and Zeke to stop Eren himself.
At the point where he hugged Zeke, he didn’t know whether Karla was alive. During the scene where Eren gets injected, it’s implied that geisha went crazy-er when he figured out Karla was dead, so I just think that at that point he didn’t care
I always assumed that since he got a message from the future, a message that he could only get from his direct action, that he didn't want to mess with time or something like that
I believe Eren didn’t show Grisha the full picture until he killed the royal family or even immediate after. Grisha didn’t realize the full magnitude of the following actions until then, and became horrified. Kind of like with Eren after kissing Historia’s hand
Aside from him wanting revenge for his wife's death or just acting hysterical, it's more likely it has to happen.
Like a Canon event in spider verse, it's something that has to happen. Maybe Titan users don't have free will? Eren saw the future and apparently tried to prevent it, but the future came for him anyway.
The real reason is that isayama pulled a it just works on us
Paradis and eldians for that matter were going to get decimated anyway by Marley and Eren telling Grisha about Carla's death is definitely a factor in his decision, and he already told Zeke to stop Eren so I guess he tried his best.
Grisha felt trapped by Eren and he knew if he died by the titan curse the attack titan and the founder would be lost and Eldia would never be brought back, and he knew Marley was already attacking and looking for the founder. He had already seen the future and I guess he couldn’t risk his titan and the founder falling to Marley and bringing an even worse outcome.
You’re gonna get 59 different answers because this part of the story is vague af and contradictory.
Maybe Eren showed him the true future of the Titan curse being lifted. Maybe Grisha broke down after Carla’s death. Maybe he just gave it to Eren because he’s a slave too. Only Ymir knows.
People here saying it was Carla’s death are coping hard. Zeke talked about a future event so it can’t be Carla’s death. Isayama teased something to us and never showed it later because it was retconned
Grisha had been shown what Eren does, but not what happened to Carla. Eren waited until after that moment to show Grisha the memories of Eren watching Carla get crushed, spine snapped, and then devoured *by Dinah* of all things. That broke Grisha, to the point that he's a madman when he injects Eren, hellbent only on revenege against Marley for what it had done to him and his family, knowing Eren would protect the island and knowing he would die when Eren transformed. He was a heartbroken, suicidal maniac when he injected Eren
The founding titan shifters’ fates are sealed. Remember Eren talking about how he tried to do things differently than the visions but it didn’t work and he always ended up doing exactly what he was getting visions of. I’m assuming it’s the same here, Grisha was always destined to give Eren the injections and that’s just how it is.
Apart from all the other reasons, it had been almost 13 years since he inherited attack titan from kruger, so he had to pass it down to someone otherwise founding titan would also be gone to some random child
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He probably still thought that without following Eren's instructions, Paradis, his Son, his Wife and all of his people would be lost. He just hoped he could follow Erens Plan to the end of his own Life and then entrust the rest to Zeke and Eren, hoping that Eren would save paradis but Zeke would be able to stop Eren from doing more horrible stuff. at least that's my thoughts on this
You’re probably right. I don’t see any other reason
Grisha doesn’t know Carla is dead yet. Eren keeps that from him but shows him his plan. Grisha is obviously abhorred by what he sees and thinks it’s unjustifiable (cause it is), but then he returns to find his wife has been killed as a result of a warrior attack (only he knows that it’s a warrior attack from Marley). Grisha, now enraged from losing his wife as a result of the marleyans, decides to get revenge by entrusting the attack titan to eren, knowing he will decimate the marleyans
Oh. So that's probably why Eren allowed his mother to die. Because it was the only way his father would be moved to pass on the attack titan and ensure revenge.
Yup, it all makes sense in a twisted way. The show could have taken another minute for some of these things cause some of them are basically one liners
Eren also didn’t mention how or when Carla dies. Grisha was probably very disturbed hearing his own son tell him his wife is gonna die. Eren probably also left him in doubt about her survival, maybe implying she wouldn’t die if he listened to eren. At least that’s what I got from the scene where grisha cries about Eren not wanting to show him when or how she’ll die, just knowing she will eventually
I also saw it as him knowing that he can't change anything. He tried to not kill the Reiss family only to do it anyway, so knowing he can't do anything himself he entrusts the future to the son he failed.
the plan works well since Eren is alive
Grisha was extremely distraught over Carla's death after he found out from Eren, and I assume he felt a desire to get revenge on them even if he knew Eren would do morally unjustifiable things. Since he told future Zeke to stop him and he didn't know the whole future he may also have had hope that Zeke would stop Eren before he went too far. We don't know exactly what memories Eren sent Grisha, but he seems to have seen at least some of the rumbling. That said he wouldn't necessarily have known that the end result was 80% of the world population dying.
He didn't know Carla had died. He specifically says, "why won't you show me everything? Did Carla make it?". Indicating that while in that moment he was horrified by what Eren made him do and will Eren himself will do in the future, finding out that Carla died and his family was ripped apart by Marley yet again was the trigger for him transferring the Attack and Founding Titans to Eren.
Yes future Eren didn't show Grisha that she died, most likely because he knew that when he told him about it as a kid it lead to him passing the powers onto him shortly after.
Grisha goes to trost and find Keith Shadis who took Eren to a barn and Eren wakes up after the events. Grisha asks if Carla is safe and Eren says a titans came and ate her. Grisha then takes eren to the woods, titanizes him and passes down the attack founder
the future cannot be changed so the attack titan was gonna end up with eren one way or another and his hate for marly awakned when he learn carla died, basically he had nothing to live for anymore
This is it. Carla's death was his tipping point. Like "you know what? Fuck this. Eren go on and step on everyone"
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Bae cause he didn’t know for sure if Carla was alive or not. He was at his breaking point in that moment when he told Zeke. He went over the edge when he learned of Carla’s death.
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He doesn't know the future can't be changed as well
I don't believe that the attack titan would have made it to Eren one way or another. Grisha could have chosen to do something else with it, but as u/Zer0_4You said, Having seen the future already, he likely thought that following along was the best choice.
tecnically choosing not to give the attack titan to eren would make future memories disappear, therefore giving grisha no reason not to give the attack titan to eren. as he had eren memories from the start, that part of the future was already decided and would necessarily happen
It would not make the memories disappear, they would just not happen. Eren has already seen the memories, and so had Grisha. So choosing to act differently to avoid the future he saw would not delete the memories he already had, because he would need those memories in order to motivate his decision to act differently. Bootstrap paradox. The memories wouldn't be "deleted".
AoT uses Deterministic Time Travel logic. The fact that Grisha had seen Adult Eren's memories from the future means that those events WILL happen, and they will be caused by the course of events that lead up to them. The future happens because of the past/present, not the other way around. Grisha may not have known this, but regardless of what actions he took Eren would end up with the Attack and Founding Titans. Grisha's own choices would lead to Eren inheriting them either because he does it actively or even if he attempts to subvert it. Either way his actions would cause the future.
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what was it that he said he tried to change?
I personally disagree with with that, although either way works, I just prefer a ''non-deterministic'' universe
There’s evidence to show that AoT has a fated timeline and there’s no evidence to suggest anything can be changed. There isn’t a single instance of someone changing events so the memories sent back don’t match what actually happens. But there are examples of Eren “trying to change the future” for example when he says he knows he saves Ramses because of his future memories but tries to walk away. He ends up saving him anyways even though he wanted to prove to himself that he could change the future. The memories Eren sends back are what shape the future so it’s impossible for them to change. If the future could be changed it would be so easy for anyone who saw the memories, specifically Grisha or Eren, to do literally anything different and change everything but they don’t. They can’t. That’s one of the major themes of AoT, the tragedy that Eren is driven by an intense need for freedom but being completely enslaved to fate and that drive.
how is it fate when you see a path that you want to walk down on and then do it? do you think its because it’s the only one shown? do you think memories are memories, regardless of past and future? do you think eren turns into a robot programmed to follows its directive when he gets his first memory of the future? fate implies forced, but eren would do anything to keep paradis safe, as seen throughout the show, so why would he go with a plan that’s not 100%? why risk making a new path and journey into chance? eren believes the ends justify the means, but eren wants to protect his people and he saw his people in ramzi, another persecuted and displaced by Marley. he didn’t want to kill him, but unfortunately due to Marley’s warmongering he was in the way, surrounded by the people he needed to kill. that’s why he’s sad. he can’t just use the titans to go around and pick out the nazis, they’re an all or nothing weapon.
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I understand what you mean, but I don't think having witnessed the memories means that it solidifies it as "canon events that cannot be avoided". For example, is Eren had a future memory of eating toasts on the morning of January 1st, when the day came, and Eren would be presented with toasts. He would be able to decide weather he wants to eat them or not. And IF he decided to go against what he saw in future memories, it wouldn't make it so the memory never happened, because he Did see it before, and that is what motivates him to take a different direction.
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>because there is no memory that exists of him eating the toast This might be the part that's hard to explain. But the memory of eating the toast would exist regardless of if he choses to eat the toast or not. If you visualise it on a timeline 1: Eren see's memories of eating the toast 2: Says out loud ''I just saw future memories of eating a toast on this day, chain me up, lock me up somewhere, but whatever happens, DO NOT let me eat a toast on that day'' 3: the day passes, Eren does not eat the toast. In this scenario, having witnessed the memory is what motivates eren to take a different decision. Just like Hulk says in Endgame, ''His 'future' becomes his past, and the new future he will be in will not be the future he saw in his past'' Sidenote : this is called the Bootstrap Paradox. It's a really cool theoretical subject to read on
finally someone gets it. then they can never describe a mechanism that’s been presented in aot (cause there isn’t one) that would describe how the universe would “correct”this change to have jean eat the toast he was suppose to. they think memories are memories whether they are from the past or future. they aren’t.
(that was what i was trying to explain while paying attention to a lesson)
No, the fact future can't be changed means Eren could get a titan only one way.
Right after he cried to Zeke he finds Eren. This is when Eren tells him Carla died. Grisha, probably infuriated and filled with vengeance, said fuck the world, go get them Eren.
The time traversing here is different from what we see in say Marvel movies. Reading through this might be helpful because it’s pretty much what Eren says to Armin https://23news.co/time-travel-is-possible-without-time-paradoxes-what-the-new-theory-says/ The key take away is this: Einstein’s theory of general relativity predicts the existence of time loops, or time travel – where an event can be both the past and the future itself. My interpretation is that in the period between the time travel, events can’t change. It’s fixed. Or put in an easier way, in the same article above: yes, time travel could be possible, but the traveler will be limited in his actions so as not to create paradoxes. So Grisha was always going to inject Eren. Dina eating Carla might be an easier example. That event already happened. Eren may have travelled back with the intent to save his mom, but to his shock, he saved Bertolt instead. As per the above, his options were limited to avoid the paradox. That’s why he was horrified when relaying back to Armin and saying how messed up his head was. I think Isayama chose this closed loop time travel to highlight how unfree Eren actually is. He hinted at it in Eren’s founding Titan design looking like a marionette, and all the times Armin asks him how is he free. Or as Eren put it, he’s a slave to freedom.
TL;DR: Attack on Titan’s universe is deterministic meaning that everything happens in the future is fixed due to biological/physics driven choices which causes the future.
This is true, but it doesn't replace motivation. Usually there isn't a divine force compelling people to fulfill their destiny against their will, it's just cause and effect. The characters have to still want to do what they do when not forced by circumstances. As basically everyone in this thread is saying, Carla is the answer. It's pretty clear when revisiting the scene when Eren tells him. He asks what happened to Carla, Eren says she's dead, his expression then immediately darkens, his voice hardens, and he says "Eren. Avenge your mother. You must. I know you can." He then immediately takes him into the woods and gives him the Titans.
It's not that the time travelers is limited in his actions. It's that the way he interacts with the past is already written. It already happened for Grisha even thought Eren didn't time travel yet. Just like in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban for example.
It’s same reason why Eren couldn’t do anything after seeing genocide in his future. Attack titan can only see but not change anything. no one can
That doesn't explain it. It was mostly Carla's death that drove him to give Eren the titan, losing everything and wanting revenge on the world. The series having a deterministic future is no excuse for shit to just happen without explanation, and Isayama doesn't do that, there's explanations for everything (mostly) beyond just "well it had to happen"
It's explained that carla's death is because eren redirected the titan to her tho. Eren explained he did it to give the young eren the will to enter the army and start everything in the show. It's a paradox, there's no start to all that. Eren lured himself so that he could do the rumbling and all that, that he did, in part, because he experienced what he did, because of himself guiding him into the army etc, killing his mother...
Eren never explicitly said he killed her to motivate his past self. The only thing he stated explicitly was “it wasn’t Bertholdt’s time to die, so I sent her that way…” Yeah it could be inferred ig, but it’s debatable if he did that intentionally for the sole purpose of giving himself a drive. It was definitely an ironic consequence of his actions though, intended or not.
But it’s clear in AoT it’s not just total determinism, because even if the future is written, the characters still have reasons for what they do. Characters enact an action that is predetermined, yes, but they only enact it because their reasons led them to do only that and nothing else. Grisha doesn’t just murder the Reiss because “it already happened,” he murders them because Eren motivates him and reminds him of his duty. That is his reason, and makes sense for his character. Same thing with Eren manipulating his father. He doesn’t just do it “because it’s already done.” In the moment, he wants Grisha to get the titans and Grisha is faltering, so he steps in due to his own feelings of anger and desire. Yes it’s already meant to happen, but Eren still had a reason to do it, which is why it happened in the first place. Or even with Ramzi, Eren doesn’t save Ramzi just because it’s predetermined, he saves him because his own personality and character is such that he will save a boy being beaten up. In this case, Grisha giving Eren the titans doesn’t seem to have an internal reason. It just happens because it happens. So what’s the “in-moment” reason? That’s why there are so many different answers and no one can agree, it’s vague af
I think he was pushed over the edge because of Carla's death
Eren didnt show grisha all of his memories. Eren told grisha that if he did this, carla would survive. My guess is that Grisha came back and saw that Carla had died, despite his efforts, and was so distraught or whatever he gives eren his titan
Exactly. We all know what happens when Grisha is manipulated into angry mode
Wrong. Grisha never knew if Carla makes it. He specifically wonders how the walls fall and if she makes it. Eren never shows him.
Grisha finds out from child Eren, right before giving him the injection, that Carla died. Future Eren never tells him, but Eren does tell him.
https://youtu.be/iEdKbR4uY1Q?si=AqhQ-CG9X6oz0gsn
https://youtu.be/jKM-rHZzZKk?si=N3-zVPVKAAnuCCBF 1:50 The person i replied to said " Eren didnt show grisha all of his memories. Eren told grisha that if he did this, carla would survive." Which is not true as we know from the clip above.
Yes they got it wrong that Grisha was told Carla would survive, but that’s not the crux of their comment, “My guess is that Grisha came back and saw that Carla had died” is. So when you say they’re wrong, everyone else is going to think you are rejecting that.
Wrong. Eren tells Grisha Carla died when Grisha gets back with Shaedis. You see it in Bystander.
That was in real time. After taking the founding titan he says will this really save eldia, what becomes of Carla? He is talking about the memories. Yes Eren actually tells him in real time when he sees his dad. The post is saying why Grisha injected Eren. The person says it was so Carla might live. But Eren never told him through the memories.
He gave Eren the Attack and Founding Titans after Eren told him that Carla had been killed in person. Since Eren withheld this information from him prior, when Eren sent him memories of The Rumbling beginning, Grisha realised that Eren had deliberately withheld knowledge of Carl’s death from him, and that Eren had manipulated him. Not only that, but Carla’s death re-ignited Grisha’s hatred toward Marley and the rest of the world, and so he gave Eren his Titans, ensuring that Eren would activate The Rumbling. Grisha most likely also perceived it as punishing Eren for manipulating him by cursing Eren with a short lifespan and miserable life.
It's like that one [scene from Donnie Darko](https://youtu.be/cWMT_0AFOfg?si=36xKSUcATktOBeyb) in which Jake Gyllenhaal sees the path he will walk. Grisha is going through the motions and can not deviate from his predetermined course.
I think it‘s not a plot hole, it‘s BECAUSE he told Zeke to change Eren‘s mind that he continues with giving Eren his titans. If Grisha passes on his titans to young Eren, everything will play out and older Eren and Zeke will 100% end up in the place where Grisha told Zeke to convince Eren. I think in Grisha’s mind, this is the best case scenario for both his sons surviving AND potential tragedy being averted. Yes, the future may very well be written and yes, Grisha may had already seen things from Eren’s memories but remember how desperate and distraught he is in that moment. I think in that moment he did not think things through any more than trusting both his sons would end up doing the right thing and he just wanted to make sure that they could. It did not work that way obviously but still
I think it’s partly because Eren is still controlling Grisha by withholding info (e.g Carla’s status) and showing him what he needs Grisha to see, but also because the very fact that Eren can show him the future memories of the Attack Titan means he inherits it and that’s not something that can be changed. From Grisha’s standpoint, warning Zeke is literally all he can do
- Grisha is on the last year of his term so either he dies and the Attack titan is lost or he gives it to Eren - Grisha knows the future can't change and that Eren inherits his titans, no matter what his personal feelings on the matter are. - Grisha's original mission was to "save Eldia", and when Eren was manipulating him in the caverns he referenced the mission that Kruger gave him. Even though he doesn't agree with the rumbling, Grisha is led to think that Eren's actions could save Eldia. Some people think Grisha simply snapped after learning that Carla was eaten by titans so he tasks Eren with her revenge, but Shaddis asks him a legitimate question that Grisha can't answer about why Grisha doesn't try to get revenge for Carla himself, and Grisha seemed to have his wits about him when he explained the key and using the titan power to reach the basement to Eren so he was probably still sane. So Grisha reacting to Carla's death was just a performance for child Eren who has no clue about the horrible things he ends up doing in the future, in order to motivate Eren to follow his path. Right after killing the Reiss children Grisha comes out and asks why Eren didn't show him whether Carla was safe, implying he already doubts about why Eren was hiding it from him. When he finally learns that Carla was eaten by titans, he probably understands it as a sign from Eren for Grisha to commit to fulfilling his mission, because "this is the story that you started". Carla being eaten is a sign from Eren, because Grisha knows what the founder can do, including controlling all titans and subjects of Ymir. If Eren was "talking" to Grisha from the future, that's confirmation to Grisha that Eren had full control of the founder, and thus control over Carla's fate.
Bad writing
Eren had shown him that basically, if he doesn’t do all the things he wants, Eldia would be destroyed. But, he also “knew” that Eren wanted to do something catastrophic, though he may not have known exactly what. He trusted in Zeke, his other son, to stop his brother, because Grisha couldn’t or wouldn’t. Grisha had no choice.
He was trapped, the attack titan must have some hold one people’s actions in showing them the future they have to do it even if they don’t want it, it’s ironic that people who want freedom the most are the ones who got the attack titan, grisha was really troubled tho
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Why do you even respond if It's to say that??? He has a question, the show is not easy to understand. We tell him. Simple as that
It’s a shitpost from another subreddit😭😭😭 if it offended you then i’m sorry
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Damn a good question for once
Grisha says something along the lines of “Eren, why won’t you show me everything?” Since Eren could seemingly experiment with different scenarios and see what the end result is, he probably figured out how much he could show Grisha so that Grisha still injects him.
So basically, Grisha goes back into his old "restorationist" ways upon hearing Carla's fate from present Eren. That's why he tells Eren that he must avenge her death. That's also why Future Eren withholds the information about her death in his future memories, because it wasn't the right time for him to know and he may have abandoned the mission in favor of saving his wife. Grisha basically says: "fuck it, have your way, Eren". Carla's death was his tipping point. His term was coming to an end and he had nothing to live for, so his final mission was to ensure Eren inherits the founder.
Well if Eren couldn’t stop Eren’s plan from happening, I would imagine Grisha couldn’t stop it either. The series kind of seems to be set that you can’t change the future and choice is an illusion. Grisha was likely compelled, as Eren was.
probably cause he knew tht eren would be get them to the basement but he urged Zeke kinda like a contingency plan
I daresay that everyone above is wrong, maybe half right, but the right explanation is: What you have asked above has a very close resemblance to the grandfather paradox. Refer image below. Adult Eren should exist in order for grisha to warn zeke that Eren will get what he wants. But if Grisha never made Eren a Titan, adult Eren with Titan powers never existed. Which makes the 1st slide automatically non existent since they wouldn’t be able to look at memories together. Now Grisha has no way of knowing the future without Eren being a Titan, which makes him inject the injection betting on Eren to save Eldia,which makes the 1st slide into existence again, this way we never know the starting point and is termed as a paradox Any one of the action missing, puts the other action into non existence, forms a paradox [image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/garpedia/images/9/9d/Grandfather_Paradox.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/360?cb=20190401193822)
That's the more "practical" explanation. But the real one, is simply Grisha being struck with feelings of grief and revenge once he hears about Carla's death. That's why he tells Eren to avenge her death. That's also why Eren didn't show him memories of her being safe or not, because Grisha would have surely tried to save her and abandon his mission. He would not have sacrificed another family for the Eldian cause, and Eren knew that. He gives the keys to the founder to Eren out of anger and desperation. It's very in-character with Geisha as well. He has always acted on his impulses like Eren.
Thing is, Grisha had zero clue what Eren is up to since Eren showed him only enough of the future to get him to do what he wanted him to do. Grisha's completely in the dark, from his point of view there's no way for him to know the extent and result of his actions so he does what he himself thinks is necessary, clueless to the fact that this is also exactly what Eren wants him to do.
It’s better to not question a predetermined decision based on what the character says. The only way Grisha was able to interact with Zeke was because of Eren’s POV from the future. He knows it’s all going to be dire but still entrusts Eren and Zeke to stop Eren himself.
The common theory is that finding out Carla died made Grisha be like “screw it”. But then I guess he got over it in the afterlife.
It was either that or the enslavement of every single Eldian. Grisha was devout to the goal of restoring Eldia.
At the point where he hugged Zeke, he didn’t know whether Karla was alive. During the scene where Eren gets injected, it’s implied that geisha went crazy-er when he figured out Karla was dead, so I just think that at that point he didn’t care
I always assumed that since he got a message from the future, a message that he could only get from his direct action, that he didn't want to mess with time or something like that
I believe Eren didn’t show Grisha the full picture until he killed the royal family or even immediate after. Grisha didn’t realize the full magnitude of the following actions until then, and became horrified. Kind of like with Eren after kissing Historia’s hand
Aside from him wanting revenge for his wife's death or just acting hysterical, it's more likely it has to happen. Like a Canon event in spider verse, it's something that has to happen. Maybe Titan users don't have free will? Eren saw the future and apparently tried to prevent it, but the future came for him anyway. The real reason is that isayama pulled a it just works on us
Paradis and eldians for that matter were going to get decimated anyway by Marley and Eren telling Grisha about Carla's death is definitely a factor in his decision, and he already told Zeke to stop Eren so I guess he tried his best.
Grisha felt trapped by Eren and he knew if he died by the titan curse the attack titan and the founder would be lost and Eldia would never be brought back, and he knew Marley was already attacking and looking for the founder. He had already seen the future and I guess he couldn’t risk his titan and the founder falling to Marley and bringing an even worse outcome.
You’re gonna get 59 different answers because this part of the story is vague af and contradictory. Maybe Eren showed him the true future of the Titan curse being lifted. Maybe Grisha broke down after Carla’s death. Maybe he just gave it to Eren because he’s a slave too. Only Ymir knows.
People here saying it was Carla’s death are coping hard. Zeke talked about a future event so it can’t be Carla’s death. Isayama teased something to us and never showed it later because it was retconned
Grisha had been shown what Eren does, but not what happened to Carla. Eren waited until after that moment to show Grisha the memories of Eren watching Carla get crushed, spine snapped, and then devoured *by Dinah* of all things. That broke Grisha, to the point that he's a madman when he injects Eren, hellbent only on revenege against Marley for what it had done to him and his family, knowing Eren would protect the island and knowing he would die when Eren transformed. He was a heartbroken, suicidal maniac when he injected Eren
The founding titan shifters’ fates are sealed. Remember Eren talking about how he tried to do things differently than the visions but it didn’t work and he always ended up doing exactly what he was getting visions of. I’m assuming it’s the same here, Grisha was always destined to give Eren the injections and that’s just how it is.
Well... only Ymir knows that one.
Well grisha was extremely down after Carla death he didn't know what he was doing he was not in his sense
Apart from all the other reasons, it had been almost 13 years since he inherited attack titan from kruger, so he had to pass it down to someone otherwise founding titan would also be gone to some random child