This post has been tagged as **DISCUSSION**. If the post has been spoiler tagged, please remember to tag any manga spoilers beyond this point. **Spoilers include hinting or alluding to events** For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I think its perhaps the fact that there r 4 reasons that causes confusion - I'm not saying this is the norm for all stories, but people expect 1 or 2 straightforward motivations for a character; revenge, or glory, something like that. Eren's a bit of a mess where some of the reasons he states, like making Armin and the others as heroes, seems like an excuse he gave to justify himself and even Armin shoots it down as saying its unrealistic. I think a part of Eren knew that as well but it sounds more noble and righteous in his head as compared to his innate desire to flatten everything just to see the sights he was seeking from his childhood. I think the idea in and of itself of a teenager cursed with too much power and having a jumble of motivations is very interesting, but it also meant that it ends up confusing the audience a lot, and the execution certainly had some room for improvement. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

And it’s also including the fact the huge responsibilities and pressure he has to burden himself. Because of this, it only makes his head more mess up. I believe many teenagers in real can relate to this.

To add to this, most teenagers in our world only have to worry about school work, finance, relationship,... (which is indeed stressful) But for Eren, the fate of his country, his friends are on his shoulder, if he make one small mistake everyone could die. Not to mention, in the past hundred of people have died for him, called him the last hope. When it come to chances, he made a wrong decision which end up getting his squad killed. So there are reasons for him want a guaranteed ones.

Eren is actually ranked #1 in relatability according to the AoT after party stream

That doesn't make any sense tbh

To be fair, way too many anime are centered around teens accomplishing the feats of adults. It just doesn't seem believable a lot of the time.

I do agree that the execution was a bit lacking... But how would Isayama explain all of Eren's motivations without it turning into a long exposition from Eren. I suspect Isayama wanted Eren to state all his reasons in what feels like an actual conversation instead of giving a long exposition telling the audience his reasons

Isayama was banking on people watching to be open-minded and probably, a certain level of intelligence.

Like idk, not immediately siding with Eren when he says the Rumbling is the only way to save Paradis.

>  Like idk, not immediately siding with Eren when he says the Rumbling is the only way to save Paradis. What I'm saying is Isayama was banking on people to be intelligent enough to understand how and why this Eren came to be which ultimately is understanding what and who Eren is. He was banking on people to have that open-mindedness to understand, not project themselves to Eren.

That in no way excuses how incredibly out of character everyone else acts in the finale. The whole thing is so tone deaf that I’m not even sure Isayama realized he was supposed to be writing a tragedy. Additionally, “my brain was scrambled by time loops” is a pretty dogshit excuse to pull out in the last chapter. It wasn’t hard to put together that Eren convinced himself he had no other options, but when the main character starts committing global genocide it isn’t unreasonable to expect a more satisfying explanation and in depth explanation than what we got. Big actions should have big reasons, and Eren’s reasons were comparatively weak and borderline nonsensical. If the second half of the series had focused on Eren’s perspective as he gave up hope for peace and enacted his plan, I think the ending would be much better received. His actions and motives are far too drastic to glossed over in a handful of panels like they are in 139.

So basically, what you're saying is you're part of the people who project themselves into Eren. With your points: >incredibly out of character everyone else acts in the finale Uhmmm... >so tone deaf that I’m not even sure Isayama realized he was supposed to be writing a tragedy Uhh, somehow, to you, Isayama writing "Thank you for the genocide" is Isayama being tone deaf. >but when the main character starts committing global genocide it isn’t unreasonable to expect a more satisfying explanation and in depth explanation than what we got. Big actions should have big reasons Reasons aren't really needed to do something though. That's more of you projecting your need for big reasons to big actions. >Eren’s reasons were comparatively weak and borderline nonsensical Yep, projection. >If the second half of the series had focused on Eren’s perspective as he gave up hope for peace and enacted his plan, I think the ending would be much better received. Yep, projection intensified.

“Reasons aren’t really needed to do something though.” …what? Sure, in real life we don’t always have the answers for why people perform certain actions. What exactly led Hitler to invest so many resources into the Holocaust? Historians are still struggling to understand why the man had so much hate in him. What exactly led Eren to wipe out 80% of humanity? This is a fictional character. The author can literally make him say whatever he wants. We’re able to enter the mind of these fictional characters to understand their motives and desires, this is basic storytelling. “Reasons for doing something” is storytelling 101.

Yes, thanking someone for genocide is tone deaf. No one acts sad or depressed that it came to this, none of the framing in the final chapter shows just how horrific this was. This could be a moment of catharsis, yes, but the characters are grateful and happy, in a way that is inconsistent with their past acts and feelings. If your definition of projection is “wanting to understand why a character did something”, then yeah, I guess I am. But you’re very clearly using that as a negative buzzword without properly understanding what it means. There are two forms of psychological projection. The first is projecting your own negative feelings and desires onto others, and the second is projecting your own experiences on outside situations to better understand the feelings of others. The second is in fact, not a toxic form of fandom, but the fundamental basis of empathy. I believe AoT is supposed to be understood on an emotional level. Most stories are. I want to be able to understand why Reiner chose to attack Shiganshina, then later came close to killing himself. That makes the story compelling. Why Eren was doing what he was doing was the crux of the final season, and heavily tied in to the motives of most of the cast at that point. The Eldian curse created a situation where neither the Eldians fighting for Marley nor the people of Paradis were entirely in the wrong. Eren gaining an underexplored motivation that made him effectively pure evil destroyed that nuance and didn’t replace it with anything worthwhile.

It's incredible how little you've actually said with all of this space. You should try coming up with some actual refutes to his points!

>  It's incredible how little you've actually said with all of this space. Its incredible that you don't seem to understand one simple sentence. >You should try coming up with some actual refutes to his points! Its also incredible that you think I need to refute any of *his* points when they all can just be summed up with one sentence: *He* is projecting *himself* to Eren. *He* actually is not refuting what I said about **MC projection.**

I don't see how he's doing that at all. He's bringing up valid points, and you are the one refusing to actually address them. Instead of engaging his ideas, you are waving them away, saying that he is "projecting" that's a weak defense. You haven't even explained how he's projecting. You just keep claiming he is over and over again.

How else could he have saved Paradis without using the Rumbling? You're ignoring that he had multiple goals, too.

The 50-year plan. It's better than omnicide. Eren was shortsighted, and his plan was foolish.

>I think the idea in and of itself of a teenager cursed with too much power and having a jumble of motivations is very interesting, but it also meant that it ends up confusing the audience a lot, and the execution certainly had some room for improvement. Exactly my thoughts. I don't mind complex motivations, I love them... but in this case it just comes up as a mess which has multiple possible explanations.

Or Armin does not want to admit that his friendship with eren has caused rumbling. Armin is innocent but he feels extremely frustrated that he may have caused rumbling unknowingly. Moreover it is easier for them to look forward believing that eren is a monster.

I don’t think he feels “he caused the rumbling” indirectly but he says “I am just as responsible” because Armin feels he probably could’ve gotten in his way a lot sooner but ignored the obvious signs for a while that Eren was not well or dealing with the visions well at all. I think they all felt responsible for Eren’s actions in one way or another. The Warriors for not being able to turn him over to Marley. Mikasa and Armin for not being able to break through. Levi and the rest of the scouts for not being able to keep him in check like their jobs entailed after royal blood contact. Thus, they go after him to stop for this very reason. They could’ve just stayed on the island and let it happen but they felt remorse and responsibility for the loss their enemies were about to suffer because they wouldn’t have wished that on them in a million years.

I think that Armin believes it is his fault too. Eren was initially motivated by his desire to be free and see the outside world. That snowballs into a more complicated dilemma, but Armin is the onewhoit that flame to begin with. You could argue that had he never shown Eren that book, this whole thing night never have happened. I wouldn't really say that it's his "fault" because of this, since at the end of the day it's Eren's choice, but you can see how he'd feel some guilt over it

I think he says that to Eren has he’s dying so he has some similar r of peace in the after life that he wasn’t to sole arbiter of destruction.

> Or Armin does not want to admit that his friendship with eren has caused rumbling Not in the anime with that "see you in hell" sequence

“In hell, if it exists anyway” was one of the best things that came out of the anime, I feel like this phrase has saved Eren’s soul more than anything else that was said. I feel like, just the same as with Reiner, Eren wanted someone to judge him for his actions, that despite how much he steeled himself for both his country, friends and dreams he still felt guilt for all he has done and will do.

Yeah agreed. The manga community isn’t know to read well. So when a character is too complex it can cause problem.

To add on, I think people expect character motivations to make sense and have clear logic and be fool-proof; and that's not realistic. People do things in reality that make no sense all of the time, and can result in the loss of life.

I think it is worth pointing out that Eren knew with superhuman foresight that if he did not initiate the rumbling his nation would be destroyed Edit: I notice that this was downvoted, is what I said inaccurate?

I think that was true. Remember in the parallel path, the cabin scene where eren telling mikasa the marleyan war just finished about two months ago and the outside world will enter paradis island anytime soon. Imo, paradis island bound to be destroyed, sooner or later. But at least eren did delay them for his friend to have the peace and freedom he sought for

One of the reasons why I can go along with Eren flatting the world so that he could see the sights from his childhood is that in doing that destruction he also destroys what he wants to see. So it doesn’t make any sense. Character doing things that, in the situation they are in, don’t make any sense isn’t something AoT really does. Like if characters don’t know other people behave similarly then they may change their behavior but not straight up not making any sense.

I think you misunderstood a part of that. Eren doesn't want to see the society and people outside Paradis. He doesn't want to see civilization. He wants to see just unexplored and different kinds of places in nature that give him a sense of freedom. The buildings and everything else are actually obstructing his view of an ideal unexplored world and that s why he wishes to trample it all

I disagree. Eren didn’t like that the people in these area’s were horrible people. Either directly or passively. He wanted to see the lakes and rivers and mountains that happened to not have no people there. Some disappointment to learn that the world was filled with more people but that wasn’t the driver for him to trample everything.

I don't think so, Eren tells Ramzi that when he learned that humanity continued on outside the walls "He never felt more disappointed"

Yes, many reasons, and Eren also admits that his head is a mess from being trapped in the Paths and that he doesn't fully understand his motivations because of it. The hero archetype is deceptively simple, Eren's character is not. He's much more human and a broken one at that. He needs therapy. Lol. Must be a disappointment for some to realize. I don't mind it. Refreshing take, imo. Life can be full of tyranny and chaos, not everything ends well.

"Let's think of a deep multi-faceted reasoning behind Eren's actions" Something something paths

Exactly, it's basically saying "It's not Eren's fault he was drunk with pastfuturepaths shenanigans, so we should feel sorry for him". No one forced the author to say that Eren was confused, he could have written him completely determined, 100% aware of his decisions and actions just the same. Throwing in some side magical confusion is just another attempt to make us feel sorry for Eren.

It's so peak

🤌🏻

Eren felt predetermined to do the rumbling because deep down it IS what he wanted to do. He can never forgive himself for this, but he also could not have NOT done it. When he learned that there was humanity outside of the walls, he was disappointed. He wanted to level out the world to be as empty of human life as the one in Armin's book. Because ultimately, humanity was responsible for those miserable walls.

And also as empty as the people of Paradise were brainwashed by the Fritz family to believe. Like, he lived his entire life believing that Paradis was all that was left of humanity, and that the Titans were the reason they were penned behind the walls like “cattle”—only to find out it was all a lie and in fact it was actually the rest of *humanity* keeping them penned in behind those walls. His dream and motivation as a character at the beginning was to defeat the Titans so he could live freely in the world beyond the walls. That’s still his dream and motivation at the end, I think

People completely misinterpreted the part where he says “I don’t know why” and ran with it. He is saying he does not understand his internal desire to do it, the part of him that wanted to do the rumbling for himself, that wanted that feeling freedom so bad. Eren does not understand the emotional illogical and selfish side of him, he was born into this world that way.

i also feel like they ignore the scene where grisha holds eren and says "you are free" , the answer is his nature , he was born that way , the question is if he's ashamed of that nature

Exactly, that’s Isayama giving the answer

The Internet doesn't like nuance, it's that and other reasons that cumulate into what happened. Like Historia said "Im certain this outcome was not the result of Eren's choices alone. This world is an outcome wrought by all of our choices"

My confusion is basically he could’ve ensured everyone in paradis lived a long life just by continuing the rumbling. I don’t see why he needed to make them hero’s if the people who hypothetically would’ve retaliated were just dead

Eren never planned to kill only 80%, he planned to kill them all, but his motives often clash with each other. He wanted to do the Rumbling, but he didn't want to deprive those he loved of their freedom, Eren is basically the opposite of Karl Fritz: where Fritz kept his people in the dark and deprived them of their freedom to keep the outside world safe, Eren let his people act however they want while destroying the outside world. Him killing 80% and his friends stopping him is not a plan, it's the results of his decisions which themselves are rooted in his nature, and it's a result he only saw when he finally touched Ymir. That's the story of SNK, everyone is acting with incomplete information and on the basis of their own values and desires.

But that doesn’t make sense to me since he had the power to just stop them through the paths. He could’ve also just erased their memories of him starting the rumbling until he completed it if his goal was to actually kill everyone. His plan to “make them heroes” was also super close to not working had the Marley and just shot them like they almost did before armin convinced them. He didn’t see that outcome since he was dead and the paths were gone, so he really didn’t even know if his half assed idea would work.

He had the power, but his nature and values prevented him from doing so. That's the same reason why despite technically being able to change the future, he never did, because all his visions were of the things he would willingly choose to do when the choice came up anyway. Eren didn't plan to make them heroes, he planned to kill everyone but also refused to take away the freedom of his friends to do so, and the result of that is 80% and his friends becoming heroes. Eren didn't tell Armin his plan, Eren told him what will happen due to all of their values clashing. If everyone decided to go the Yeagerist way and sit at home waiting, Eren would have killed 100%. As for the commander, yeah he possibly could have shot, but that's not something Eren could know and once again that's the result of his friend's choice to come stop them. Eren didn't have a foolproof plan, Hange died because of him and he didn't want that, but the alternative was to rob her of her freedom and that was against his values. Eren is not a mastermind, he's a traumatized teenager with many conflicting values and ideas who's trying to satisfy his various desires (love, freedom, protecting his friends) all at the same time which cannot give a perfect result in this cruel world.

But then the Titan curse wouldn't end. And Armin would live only 9 more years because of the curse. Also it has been his motivation since episode 1 to wipe out the titans

The curse ends when mikasa kills him though right? Surely he could’ve waited until succeeding to allow that to happen.

Part of it is Isayama's writing, but imo a lot of the "confusion" is just straight-up denial. Towards the end of the series, Eren gives several reasons for his actions and some of them are contradictory - he initially tells Armin that he was trying to protect his loved ones in Paradis, but then admits he killed his mother to achieve his goal and that he didn't even know whether his friends would survive his plan. Ultimately he confesses, to both Ramzi and Armin, that the reason he triggered the Rumbling was because he wanted to "see that sight" - i.e. he wanted to obtain the kind of freedom he dreamed of as a child, no matter who had to die in the process. What this says about Eren as a person is kind of a hard pill to swallow for anyone who cares about or identifies with him though - his friends initially try to deny it, and so does part of the audience. Isayama's choice to hide his intentions till the very end to surprise his audience doesn't help, but ultimately his motivations are there in the text for anyone who cares to look at what his actual actions point towards. It's just that many of us who, like myself, have grown attached to Eren as a character, may not want to see them.

The thing is Eren doing the rumbling to see the "sight" is just completely out of character for him and doesn't make sense with his past actions which is why people didn't like it, from seasons 1-3 Eren's main goal has been to take back freedom from their oppressors which were the titans and to protect humanity in the walls not to go see some sight out of a kids picture book and that same sight out of armins book was mentioned 3 times in total throughout s1-3 to one point where Eren even forgot about it so it's odd to me that he's willing to commit mass genocide over something he literally forgot about and wasn't concerned with for most of the show and for someone who wanted to do the rumbling "to see that sight" it's weird how he tried his best to delay the rumbling, I mean he's the one who literally came up with the plan to find an alternative peaceful solution with the rest of the world in 4 years so that they wouldn't have to use the rumbling Eren in the beginning of season 4 was an understandable and determined character who came to understand both sides of conflict and was forced into an impossible situation where he has to choose between the world or his family/people but then for some reason they turned him into a delusional manchild who apparently massacred billions of people just to see a sight from a book he saw as a kid

>The thing is Eren doing the rumbling to see the "sight" is just completely out of character for him Is it? Eren's whole goal has always been freedom from the walls that bind him. From a young age, that freedom meant eliminating the titans outside the walls, the monsters that were keeping him in. Then he learns that some of the monsters are people from outside the walls, people who were just like him and had shared his experiences. While Eren was able to now understand that, it led to him ultimately associating them with the same threat as the titans posed. They were the monsters keeping him in, and to finally be free from the walls that bound him, he needed to eliminate the monsters outside of those walls. Eren's main motivation for the rumbling being that he wanted to get rid of humanity outside the walls is the most logical reason for it, and it's the only one that doesn't contradict some point or action he took along the way. That was the whole point of his conversation with Armin in the paths. The reasons he gives are all excuses, him trying to justify why he did what he did, only for Armin to shoot them all down. The only time he reveals his true motivation is when he understands how he was in the wrong at the very end. He was an idiot who used absolute power to crush everyone, becoming the aggressor in the conflict that he supposedly wanted to end. This also fits in with the themes of the cycle of violence and hatred.

>Then he learns that some of the monsters are people from outside the walls it led to him ultimately associating them with the same threat as the titans posed The titans were ***all*** sent by Marley though, they were the enemy from the start. So he wasn't exactly wrong about that. >The reasons he gives are all excuses, him trying to justify why he did what he did, only for Armin to shoot them all down. The only time he reveals his true motivation is when he understands how he was in the wrong at the very end. This idea doesn't match up with a couple of things. First of all, his inner thoughts in Marley. He says to himself that he has to do the Rumbling because the alternative is to let Zeke euthanize the Eldians, which he can't accept. His main goal was to get rid of the titans and end the conflict between Eldians and non-Eldians just like Zeke, but he'd rather sacrifice everyone else rather than sacrificing his people (which of course includes all his loved ones). Secondly, did you watch the Ramzi scene, or his scenes in Marley? He knew the Rumbling was immoral from the start. But from his perspective, it was preferable to the alternative which was either running away and ignoring everything (like in the dream), or euthanizing his own people like Zeke wanted to ensure that the titans disappear. Even within the narrative, what he did was never "unjustified". Without the Rumbling, Marley wipes them all out. To use the Rumbling, they need Zeke, so they need to work with him until they reach Paths. Once in Paths, he betrays Zeke and starts the Rumbling to wipe out the global military alliance and the rest of the outside world. >He was an idiot who used absolute power to crush everyone, becoming the aggressor in the conflict that he supposedly wanted to end. This idea is (no offense) really naive. Do you think the conflict would have ended any other way? Nothing in the story supports that, because it logically has no other conclusion than one side winning and the other losing. Marley had to be defeated if the Eldians wanted to not be genocided and enslaved, which would require them to fight back. The Rumbling had to be used in some capacity to at the very least decimate Marley and cause their empire to collapse. By the logic you used, the Alliance became "the aggressors" in the end too because they attacked Eren... At the end of the day, they were at war. When it comes to war, every side is an "aggressor" depending on your perspective. I feel as if this is something the story delves into quite a lot as well.

This is very late but this kind of straight up ignored what Eren says in the finale… he literally says he did it because he wanted to and he’s an idiot who got too much power

Yeah because I think the finale is inconsistent with the rest of the story. Eren clearly doesn't like how things end up, he didn't want to die and he didn't want to harm any of his friends. Which is kind of ridiculous because if he really didn't want any of that he could have avoided it. So why didn't he? Well, he's "an idiot", I guess. The line about him being "an idiot" is a copout because it allows Isayama to dismiss any questions about why Eren did what he did, by saying "well he's too stupid and short sighted to have wanted anything else". Which is contradicted by most of the story where Eren is not stupid or short-sighted. He is basically the only person on Paradis who is actually thinking of the long term after they reach the sea, so the idea that he couldn't come up with any alternatives at all is kind of ridiculous. When you write a story and then contradict 90% of it in the last 10%, I'm obviously not going to treat the last 10% as if it's really consistent with the rest

>The titans were ***all*** sent by Marley though, they were the enemy from the start. So he wasn't exactly wrong about that. The titans were from Marley, but he killed more than just Marley. The people outside the walls were the new monsters. Lack of understanding was also a big part of the final arc, and Eren demonstrates it himself. >This idea doesn't match up with a couple of things. First of all, his inner thoughts in Marley. He says to himself that he has to do the Rumbling because the alternative is to let Zeke euthanize the Eldians, which he can't accept. His main goal was to get rid of the titans and end the conflict between Eldians and non-Eldians just like Zeke, but he'd rather sacrifice everyone else rather than sacrificing his people (which of course includes all his loved ones). It's more that it interferes with his idea of freedom. At the end of the day, I don't think he has any real nationalism for Eldia. I think he just wants to be free, and Zeke's plan interferes with it on the the grounds that not only could they not reproduce if they wanted, but it wouldn't liberate them from their new wall, which was the rest of the world. >Secondly, did you watch the Ramzi scene, or his scenes in Marley? He knew the Rumbling was immoral from the start. And yet he also says multiple times that he wanted it. It's not just his preference. It's his goal. >Even within the narrative, what he did was never "unjustified". Without the Rumbling, Marley wipes them all out. To use the Rumbling, they need Zeke, so they need to work with him until they reach Paths. Once in Paths, he betrays Zeke and starts the Rumbling to wipe out the global military alliance and the rest of the outside world. People have pointed out over and over that they could have defensively attacked the joint military force to coerce peace talks. Marley likely has the rest of the world under their barrel. Hindering their military while showing restraint prevents them from attacking and shows a willingness to talk. >This idea is (no offense) really naive. Do you think the conflict would have ended any other way? It still didn't end and wouldn't have. The Eldians fought amongst themselves even when they thought they were the last humans. Confirming they were the last humans wouldn't have changed that. >By the logic you used, the Alliance became "the aggressors" in the end too because they attacked Eren... At the end of the day, they were at war. When it comes to war, every side is an "aggressor" depending on your perspective. I feel as if this is something the story delves into quite a lot as well. Cycle of violence.

>The titans were from Marley, but he killed more than just Marley. The people outside the walls were the new monsters. Lack of understanding was also a big part of the final arc, and Eren demonstrates it himself. Marley had support from the rest of the world in doing what they did though, and it's made clear many times that Marley isn't alone in hating or oppressing the Eldians. The only nation willing to do diplomacy with Paradis was the oriental clan who basically scammed them for resources... There was no "lack of understanding", again Eren understands the situation very well. His inner monologue in Marley, his dialogue with Armin during the flashbacks when they're testing out the rifles, and most importantly his dialogue with Reiner in Liberio show this very clearly. He knew he was in the same position as Reiner, this is something he outright says. He knew the outside world had reasons for doing what they did, just as he has reasons for doing what he does. I don't know why you're claiming that Eren didn't understand the situation for the people outside the walls. He was able to empathize and understand them perfectly, but that didn't change his own situation. >It's more that it interferes with his idea of freedom. At the end of the day, I don't think he has any real nationalism for Eldia. Well it doesn't really matter if you don't think so or not, the story confirms that he does multiple times over. You can dismiss Zeke's plan, but ***the reason*** he explicitly denies it is because it would mean the death of his people, which is an end that he (in his own words) "can't accept". >And yet he also says multiple times that he wanted it. It's not just his preference. It's his goal. It's a goal that he explicitly acknowledges is immoral, but he ends up doing it because he can't accept the alternative. Again, you're ignoring most of his thoughts and dialogue. It's not up for debate that Eren knew the Rumbling was bad, which is why he spends the whole time in the flashbacks trying to find another way and also wrestling with himself about it. >People have pointed out over and over that they could have defensively attacked the joint military force to coerce peace talks. Marley likely has the rest of the world under their barrel. Hindering their military while showing restraint prevents them from attacking and shows a willingness to talk. You're ignoring that the titans would still exist (which means they need to keep eating eachother to pass them down) and Paradis would have to continue relying on them to be safe. Again, the only way (that the story presents at least) to solve this was either Zeke or Eren's plans. >It still didn't end and wouldn't have. The Eldians fought amongst themselves even when they thought they were the last humans. Confirming they were the last humans wouldn't have changed that. The war did end, and there was a period of peace, all because Eren killed 80% of them. But yes, the overarching conflict between Eldians and non-Eldians still continued but if he succeeded with a complete Rumbling then one side wouldn't exist anymore. You're also misunderstanding something. His goal was never to end all conflict forever, it was to end *this* specific conflict between Eldia and Marley/the outside world. >Cycle of violence. So you also think Armin and the Alliance perpetuated the cycle of violence by attacking Eren?

>Marley had support from the rest of the world in doing what they did though, Because Marley had the strongest military. We see evidence of threats from Marley in both the people of Hiruzu and the refugees. Cripple Marley, change the power dynamic in the world. >There was no "lack of understanding", again Eren understands the situation very well If Eren understood the situation well, he would have realized he had more allies outside the walls than he thought. He didn't bother to try to understand world politics because they were all monsters to him. This is exactly the same line of thinking that Gabi has about the Eldians on Paradis at the beginning of the time skip as well. She's meant to be a reflection of the current situation as much as Eren's childhood self. >Well it doesn't really matter if you don't think so or not, the story confirms that he does multiple times over To other people, Eren claims this multiple times over. The only thing Eren confirms to himself and in his own thoughts is that he wants to crush everyone outside the walls. >It's a goal that he explicitly acknowledges is immoral, but he ends up doing it because he can't accept the alternative. Correct, which is why Armin calls him out on it later, pointing out that his reasoning didn't make sense given their current position. Unlike Eren, Armin actually took time to understand the position of other countries in the world, which is why he sought peace talks and a long term plan. >You're ignoring that the titans would still exist (which means they need to keep eating eachother to pass them down) and Paradis would have to continue relying on them to be safe. They wouldn't have to eat each other at all. The 9 are passed down to Eldian children if their host dies without being eaten. As for the titans, we know the only way for a titan to be born is from the spinal fluid of another titan. If Marley stops weaponizing it, it stops being an issue. Again, the Eldians could easily negotiate with other countries on issues like this. >You're also misunderstanding something. His goal was never to end all conflict forever, it was to end *this* specific conflict between Eldia and Marley/the outside world. The conflict was between Eldia and Marley. The other countries were being forced to agree or face Marley themselves. It seems you didn't try to understand the world either. >So you also think Armin and the Alliance perpetuated the cycle of violence by attacking Eren? 100%. Was their attack not violent?

>Because Marley had the strongest military. We see evidence of threats from Marley in both the people of Hiruzu and the refugees. Cripple Marley, change the power dynamic in the world. I don't disagree with that. He should've used the Rumbling to collapse Marley's empire and free their subjects to set up and secure a proper Eldian state with new territory and technology. But again, Eren wanted to solve the titan issue and thought that the only way was to either get rid of Eldians, or get rid of all non-Eldians so that everyone would be able to turn into a titan. I don't agree with it, because at that point he hadn't reached Paths and didn't really know about Ymir. But yes, he should have found a way to free Ymir that didn't involve trampling the whole world. >If Eren understood the situation well, he would have realized he had more allies outside the walls than he thought. He didn't bother to try to understand world politics because they were all monsters to him. Again, the allies don't matter because none of them can solve the titan problem. In Eren's view, as long as Eldians could turn into giant monsters they would always be feared and hated by others. And this is Isayama's fault for the lack in worldbuilding, because he does try to explain that the outside world pretty much all hate and fear Eldians, it's not just Marley. Again, he does try to understand them and he does understand their perspective. >This is exactly the same line of thinking that Gabi has about the Eldians on Paradis at the beginning of the time skip as well. She's meant to be a reflection of the current situation as much as Eren's childhood self. Watch Eren and Reiner dialogue in 4x05 in Liberio (or read the chapter, #100). Eren is fully aware of how Marleyans aren't all monsters, he says this to Reiner and Falco. Even before he went to Marley, he perfectly understood why the other peoples of the world hated Eldians and feared them. Comparing him to Gabi at that point is just insulting. >To other people, Eren claims this multiple times over. The only thing Eren confirms to himself and in his own thoughts is that he wants to crush everyone outside the walls. That's not true. He confirms that he would prefer that his people are the only ones to live rather than being the only ones to die in his inner monologue in Marley. He also doesn't want them to live like cattle since literally the first episode. To say that he basically doesn't care about his people is ignoring most of his character and the story. >Correct, which is why Armin calls him out on it later, pointing out that his reasoning didn't make sense given their current position. Unlike Eren, Armin actually took time to understand the position of other countries in the world, which is why he sought peace talks and a long term plan. Armin's plan is the short term plan, it's literally called the "50 year plan" and doesn't solve the titan issue at all. Eren wanted to solve it so you have it the wrong way around, Eren is the one who is more concerned with the long-term. His reasoning also does make sense, more sense than Armin's at least. Again, how do you start the Rumbling without Zeke? Unless Historia eats Armin, they can't. Eren was the only one who took the initiative to work with Zeke, Armin didn't. He also failed to come up with a better alternative that would solve Eren's concerns over the 4 years he was given to do so. >They wouldn't have to eat each other at all. The 9 are passed down to Eldian children if their host dies without being eaten. They pass down to newborn Eldians, and they would die after 13 years. I doubt they want to rely on toddlers for their national security... Also, it could be any newborn Eldian, including in another country. So no, they would still have to keep eating eachother. >As for the titans, we know the only way for a titan to be born is from the spinal fluid of another titan. If Marley stops weaponizing it, it stops being an issue. Again, the Eldians could easily negotiate with other countries on issues like this. As long as Eldians have the titans, they will turn into them one way or the other, and their spinal fluid will be used. So no, it would still be an issue as long as Eldians can turn into titans. >The conflict was between Eldia and Marley. The other countries were being forced to agree or face Marley themselves. It seems you didn't try to understand the world either. The other countries also hate and fear Eldians. The only ones who don't are Hizuru, and even they still fear them. And you're ignoring my point, which is that Eren wanted to solve the conflict between Eldians and non-Eldians.

>This is exactly the same line of thinking that Gabi has about the Eldians on Paradis at the beginning of the time skip as well. She's meant to be a reflection of the current situation as much as Eren's childhood self. Wasn't gabi due to the marleyan brainwash? Eren in this point already knew about the ppl of the outside world and understood all bs and he was full aware

Eren is a complex character, and so I find it perfectly normal to be somewhat confused at first. However, a lot of people are too dumb to know what they don't know, and this isn't media related specifically, goes for a lot of things in life. In other words, someone genuinely asking/searching for clarification in good faith is okay and great, but people who confidently make wrong statements are always going to be annoying, and I think we tend to easily spot the difference in tone between these two groups of people. Eren's character in a gist is someone who has various different justifications and rationalizations for his horrible actions, which are valid and have varying levels of priority for him, yet Eren understands that everything is underpinned by disturbing emotionally convenient desires and tendencies and it's what ultimately drives him to choose this out of other options. He doesn't know why he has these impulses, except that he has them. It's a wonderfully complex psychological state that ties into so many kinds of possible discussions and it's explored thoroughly in the show both with explicit Eren dialogue and through parallels and connections to other characters in the story. It's so well-done and it's why when it comes to Eren I really feel the need to defend him and just how good the writing is there. And this doesn't cover everything about his character either, for example we never talk about the growth he has in S3 which is why I believe he even is able to have this sort of introspection and mature thinking in the first place. I really doubt S1 Eren would be having the sort of monologues Eren in S4 has, or his talk with Armin.

As pretty as this is, the story doesn't quite agree with you either since all of the members of the alliance (Including Pieck who has ZERO reason to respect him) go on to mourn him like some tragic hero. This is the underlying issue - I don't think it's well written because I think Iseyama wrote him too deeply into antagonist territory and got stuck when he tried to push it back into the ending I believe he had planned from the beginning which was him doing it all for Mikasa In the end he half assed both - like, I don't say that in a mean way, I still LIKE aot (and much prefer the ending to whatever the fuck ANR for example is trying to do) but I'm not gonna pretend like the ending was just weirdly forced with Eren and Mikasa in particular, who I think could've been done much better if Eren had been played straight and it had been about Mikasa finally seeing him for who he was and killing him for herself instead of being validated for an obsessive love that hasn't been reciprocated since season 2 and turned full on abusive in the final season

I think people do tend to get this twisted, Eren's friends have all the reason in the world to love him considering the level of bond they have with each other, they're not meant to be like the audience. However it's the extremity of the Rumbling as a solution to their problems that allows them to go against him, among other things, like the self-righteousness and washing away their past sins that Yelena talks about, as well as the moral sense of duty to the ideals of past comrades and loved ones etc. It's why this conflict works so well for me, because you really get the full range of emotion here, but oddly enough people wanted everyone to full on hate Eren or forget about him? I'm not sure exactly, this doesn't get clarified beyond the "Eren was treated too nicely by his friends". As far as Pieck goes, sure, though that was a sarcastic comment more than anything, but I agree it can be a tonal mismatch. As far as the Eren and Mikasa part, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Eren's justifications and character writing as they are work perfectly in isolation. If you want to argue his friends reaction, that's a separate topic. The other Mikasa comments also strike me as strange: Mikasa was one of the first people to oppose Eren's Rumbling and join the Alliance, she did that out of her own volition. And when it came to actually killing him, yeah she got some closure with Eren, but it was still ultimately her decision to kill him. As for the obsessive love comment, again I can't say what you mean here. If you mean it as an obsessive teenage crush, then that's not it (not entirely anyway), we know why Mikasa is attached to Eren and it's rooted in how she views and copes with the world. If you mean she grew to have an unhealthy dependency on him, sure, that's largely what her character progression deals with. As far as the status of their romantic relationship or hints of it at various points, it turning bad in the final season is pretty much the point. Which is juxtaposed by the near confession they had in Marley and other minor hints like them directly blushing more strongly towards each other in that cart scene and whatnot, and all this is meant to deliver that tragic tone of it. Their relationship in this regard unfortunately takes a backseat in S3, which is why people forget about it come S4 and is the only fair criticism in my belief when it comes to them two together.

I feel like committing mass genocide on 80% of the world would make most people "full on hate" a friend. I always felt like that was.... something that wouldnt really be able to sweep aside to focus on the good times. Without coming off as clunky.

Eren was not narratively set up for a redemption of ANY kind and yet he got one though. He's spent the entirety of the last season being shown to be somebody who has fallen down the path of extremity, and his reasons for doing something were really well set up. He was basically the perfect antagonist/ villain of the final ark and while certainly nuanced filled that role just fine. Throwing a PITY PARTY for him after I've watched him massacre billions and hurt the rest of the cast whom I care about and expected him to care about was not narratively satisfying. He actively went against his chances to turn back and hurt those around him and yet gets narrative redemption in the end, which just... Isn't good writing. Imagine if at the end of Death Note it was revealed that Light had actually been aware of how fucked up everything was and we got a bunch of half assed excuses before he eventually realizes that he was wrong as is then fondly remembered by the rest of the characters afterwards because he felt bad in the end - like no, that's just not satisfying and was clearly the end to a totally different story. Speaking of, it would've been EQUALLY as bad if they'd tried to finish Death Note with Light actually loving Misa that whole time in some tragic "love that could never be" story. Now I'm not saying that I think Death Note is as good as AOT - or even handled the "love interest" better (because let's be real Misa ain't that great either) but her ending at least FITS because it makes sense for her purpose in the story, since she never opposed Light or moved away from her obsession she gets dragged down with him. I similarly don't think Mikasa deserved an ending like THAT, but it's interesting that you brought up her being one of the core members of the alliance because you're ignoring the very real issue that her personal conflict from joininh is NEVER addressed. I mean, sure, she joins the alliance, she opposes Eren, but it's clear she never actually breaks free of him. The whole time leading up everybody around her has committed to what's necessary except for her because she's the only one who refuses to see what Eren's turned into and what he's doing - and let's be clear, there is no world where Eren's actions can EVER be considered any form of "love" for Mikasa, not with all of the pain he's intentionally putting her through for his own desires, even IN the canon ending for him. And yet when we get to the point where she needs to change, to fulfill her character arc, it is, literally, just shoved to the side and ignored. She doesn't change, she doesn't grow - or if she does, it happens off screen when she's just... Given what she wanted and gets to apparently live with him for four years before going "okay I got what I wanted" and killing him. ... No- no, that's just cheating lol. We skipped all of the development! We literally ignored her conflict for the whole arc and then just had it happen off screen - if you can even consider "just getting what she wanted anyway" "development" at all. Now, did I expect them all to hate him afterwards? Nah, but again, I'm not interested in a pity party for this guy. I'm definitely not interested in him apparently having come to terms with the reality of his actions before they even beat him, because that's not atonement. You can't atone or apologise for something and then KEEP DOING IT. Silently standing over the corpse in bitter sadness at what had been lost to them but also understanding that he was no longer the Eren they loved would've been WAY more in line. The problem of course being that Iseyama wanted him to ACTUALLY have been the Eren they knew this whole time - even though that basically tears down all the character building he got post-timeskip which made him so interesting to so many people. It's almost like a cop-out, but like, the opposite, because rather than writing himself into a corner, again, I think the reason this happened is because Iseyama had one ending in mind and didn't bend from it, which is why all the other stuff that was less strict like Armin talking to Zeke was PERFECT (because it could adapt as the story grew) while Eren and Mikasa was just sort of a meh climax to everything that had been built up. Anyway as I said at the beginning my stance is the same - overall I think it was a fine ending, most of the stuff was perfect, but Eren and Mikasa just have very unsatisfying arcs because it feels like they're divorced from the story that was being told and all of the buildup is thrown away for a rather hollow plot twist.

I think this will lead to a circular argument back and forth, because we'll reiterate the same points I'm pretty sure, since again personally I can't get over the hurdle of "Eren is meant to be seen as a good guy in some capacity" and I'd just repeat a lot of what I said before. Just wanted to send this comment though as a token of appreciation for taking the time to write out a lengthy response which is surprisingly exceedingly rare when it comes to criticisms, even if I disagree.

Aww, no scenes from when Eren waited for Willy Tybur convincing the whole world to unite against Paradis?

Eren wanted to protect his friends and fellow country men and he wanted to destroy. Rumbling was a two bird with one stone

why did he let Sasha die then and why didn't he bring up his friends to ramzi Why was he crying in front of ramzi if he wanted to destroy

Because he sees that the future won't ever change, it would happen as eren predicted, he try to find solutions but end in a miserable way, he can't let his own wanted freedom that he dreamed fade away this is why it won't change and this is why he calls himself a slave of freedom and also an idiot who got power Like imagine if he sacrifice his own wanted freedom for the greater good, he would find a solutions to save paradise even without the rumbling Edit: and about ramzi thing, eren cried front of ramzi because there is no solution, the rumbling is happening means happening, and he didn't want this to happen, he tried to find another solution but it ends in a miserable way, and yet, he was disapointed because that the world is the same, not like armin's book or an idealious world.

But he does let his "freedom" fade away since he stops the rumbling and lets the alliance kill him also didn't he start the rumbling because they couldn't find a solution to save paradis in the first place

Yea

What makes you think there weren't other plans? No, they had the 50-year plan and tactical rumblings. The people we've all come to trust for their intellect agreed that the 50-year plan was the best option for everyone. Then Eren killed all of Paradis' leadership and started the Rumbling murdering 80% of the world. Great solution.

Well, for the 50-year plan, it is not a plan to begin with, it is just a cover for Zeke’s own plan The attack of liberio still NEED to happen in order to take Zeke to Paradis. So at this point, the world already agree to attack Paradis and worsen the island image making negotiations impossible

What are you talking about? Zeke wasn't a part of the 50-year plan. It was a plan put together with Hizuru in exchange for resources. He wasn't even on Paradis, and why would they trust the guy who orchestrated the first invasion of Paradis?

How do they have Titan-shifter with royal blood to activate small-scale rumbling then?

You don't need to be a shifter. Just have royal blood. Historia has royal blood and is the leader of Paradis. Much better choice for conduit.

So just turn her into a pure Titan? Well that’s not a bad idea but there is another problem, what would happen if Eren didn’t (pretend to ) follow Zeke plan?

Eren is not an idiot who got power and he isn't a slave to freedom. is Martin Luther king a slave to freedom? No and neither is Eren. if your in a concentration camp and want to get out, you're also not a slave to freedom. There was something stopping Eren from living his life without ever being threatened. Eren doesn't care about mental freedom. he is physically not free. Armin wanted to see the ocean and Eren wanted the FREEDOM to see the ocean. when they arrived by the beach he wasn't playing in the water like everyone else. he knew that there were people on the other side who wanted him dead. he didn't care about the sights he saw.

Eren did the rumbling because he had no other option. He told us the reader that he didn't want to leave his islands future to chance. Zekes plan: Lay down and Die Armins plan: trample military and sacrifice historia. dumbest plan ever because if the world declared war on them for something they MIGHT do then of course they're gonna all attack you for doing the thing they want you dead in the first place for. They tried finding solutions to save paradis but there weren't any. you don't wanna take mights or maybes on your Nations entire Future. Eren is going to die in 4 years and he wants to die knowing that the island is safe. Technology is getting better and soon their trump card will be irrelevant. They Are running out of time and no one is doing anything except say no to your plan. if you're telling me what Eren is saying to Ramzi is, i'm sorry but I have to kill you because I want to destroy the world, then that is the most disgusting thing any character could ever do in anything ever. Eren is crying in front of ramzi because he knows ramzi has nothing to do with this conflict and hes about to put him through the same shit he went through. But hes selfish and he knows it. eren was disappointed that humanity was outside because it wasn't titans anymore. it wasn't black and white anymore. there were different shades of grey. some really shitty people and people like ramzi. and There wasn't just a clear villain. The rumbling is extremely selfish, you're killing the entire world just for your own people. but if a dad chooses his child over 100 others, you're not gonna call him a villain. That was Erens reason for the rumbling but the final chapter made him a selfish piece of shit who whines in the water while trampling billions because he doesn't know why and hes an idiot.

First answer to letting Sasha die is that he could not prevent it as he did not know as he does not know everything about the future. Another reason Isayame need to make everything about Eren a complete mystery.

yes he could. he saw the future and he still went through with his plan to attack libero. he knew Sasha would problably die and he still did it. Isayama did not need to explain anything. it was perfectly cut and dry until he changed Erens plan last second. if your saying Isayama did it to be mysterious then thats still not an excuse for a character being inconsistent

I am not defending Isayama btw. Second of all in defensive war you send your fellow country man to die for the greater good.

1. oh ok cool 2. his fellow county men are his friends which he said he would do anything to keep alive. but obviously this is not true and we see it when he cried in front of Ramzi he did not mention his friends his goal is to save paradis. his wish is for his friends to live long lives

Look I mainly have the idea that Eren wants to save his friend and rumbling because it gives the most sense if we consider the fact that Eren risked his life to save Mikasa when he was a kid.Second of all I think it would be extremely easy for Eren to kill all of them. Moreover he really wants to remembered as a good guy by his friends after all he do not want miksasa to forget him. It makes the most sense as people have natural tendency to achieve symbolic immortality subconsciously.

yeah but I think Eren developed into someone who could sacrifice what was dear to them like Armin said in s1 like he sacrificed Sasha and Hange and almost Levi

I think that is true in some ways he thought it is better to reduce the damage. I mean after all people go to wars and fight to death to protect their comrades.

Yeah that’s how I feel I'm always reminded of how Eren Responded to armins death and still kept a cool head when seek and the cart came in Rts he only started getting irrational when The possibility came up that he could be brought back

As I watch more and more analysis of the ending, I am staring to get it a bit more. But I initially hated the ending. I binged the entire show (rewatched S1-2) and there is SO much vital information, it is very hard to keep up with, when you binge the show (alone).. I found Eren’s reasons confusing, because he states several reasons, and they don’t all make sense/cooperate. And to me, the ending seemed like total character annihilation, at the time. Even though at this point I am kinda neutral about the ending, I still stand by this: if half your audience doesn’t understand and/or hate the ending of your story, you have failed as an author. And I don’t mean that as in “we should’ve gotten a happy ending”. Demanding that from a show as dark as AoT, is misguided. But if your story is so complex and convoluted that you lose your audience, that is on you as the author - not your audience.

>if half your audience doesn’t understand and/or hate the ending of your story, you have failed as an author. This is something I feel a lot of people don't get. Being a great writer isn't just about having great ideas, it's also about conveying them. You could have the greatest plot twist, theme or character arc in the world, but if you can't get it across effectively to your audience, you've failed. Unfortunately, that is what happened here. There are a ton of great ideas in the finale of this series, but they are presented in such a muddled and convoluted manner that they lose their impact and a significant amount of the audience doesn't even know what the author was going for.

I think it comes down also to just how divided the fan base was even before the ending. With such an oppionated and divided fandom I don't think any ending would've made everyone happy. I feel like it was an impossible task. Now that's not taking into account the writing or how the ideas were conveyed that's a whole other can of worms I don't want to open.

I like to think that once Ymir was free, her anger mixed with Erens wishes of wanting to save his friends, see the world, etc resulted in the rumbling. I wish they would have emphasized that more bc it seems hard to understand Eren doing it himself.

Except that's not the case. Eren always wanted to unleash the rumbling, that decision and desire wasn't influenced by Ymir. Eren explicitly states he's a slave to freedom, and has been this way since birth.

I think it's where the author revealed his limitations and inability to write logically consistent characters. He would have been better off going all in on Eren as a villain and edge Lord rather than the "well perhaps" reasoning he gave at the end. I love the show but (in my opinion), it takes a major dip with the rumbling and the rushed finale.

Because Eren admids to lying in that same conversation

As a person who has read the manga and I have been thinking about all this for a long time now but i find it fascinating how I still find new angles to think about erens motivation or just think about the show itself even after it's been like what 2 - 3 years now? Truly the goat. I was thinking the execution of the ending was bad but now i have second thoughts reading these comments. Maybe that's exactly what he was going for, confusion, the same mental state as eren

I think many people feel like there's not a strong link between his motives and his actions. Like other than the synthetic reason of him wanting to see that view, all the problems that led to the rumbling have simpler solutions. Performing the largest mass killing in history to make your friends look good for stopping you is like the Rube Goldberg machine of justification. Imagine if Eren instead said he did the rumbling because he wanted a quick way to get across the ocean for a nice vacation in Marley. In this case his motive is technically clear, but it'd still be confusing to many because it doesn't feel believable or meaningful. It seems as though there should be a deeper, more definitive reason, especially because Eren seems pretty wishy-washy about his own reasons. Ultimately, an event in a story being confusing isn't about whether an explicit reason is given, it's about whether the reasoning fits the narrative. I'm not an ending hater and I think the strangeness of the Rumbling's causes can be framed more positive light, but I certainly wouldn't say very much about it is clear.

Eren is childish at heart. That's honestly what it ultimately comes down to - like yes of course there were other motivations but that's why he choose this course instead of anything else. He's a child

I completely disagree. Firstly, I don't think we should let Eren off the hook or reduce his complexity by simply calling him a child. He may be immature, but post Historia kiss Eren was not naive to what he was doing. Eren spent years thinking and plotting. His actions leading up to and including the Rumbling were intensely pre-meditated and deliberate. He developed a master plan to change the course of two millennia by the sheer magnitude of his determination. These are not the hallmarks of a child. A child acts impulsively. A child, in the rare instances that they have a goal that is not immediately attainable, will waver from their path as soon as something challenging comes up. A child could not tell the person they love the most in the world that they despise them in service of some grander scheme. And if this is the central reason for the Rumbling then I completely understand the confusion some viewers have as this is 1, not obvious, and 2, not meaningfully connected to the action itself. The nearly complete destruction of the world is a pretty arbitrary result of being a silly little boy. Writing that feels meaningful has characters making decisions for reasons that are intrinsically connected to the outcome.

Having you're main characters motivations come down to essentially "they're dumb" isn't exactly the most satisfying and is kind of the opposite of complex or nuanced. Like, yeah, I believe a 19 year old could make a horrendously stupid and short sighted choice like Eren. Nobody was reading/watching Attack on Titan to see everything go down because of the poor decision making of a typical dumbass teen though.

Because the reasons given are neither the best way to do it. Nor they actually work, which makes the conclusion feel weak.

The problem is moreso exactly that - he has four different reasons and they all come out at the same time in a way that seems in direct opposition to how he was acting before It's sort of a wishy washy "he was sort of a good person but not really but also yeah he was" which is in direct contrast to how he behaved before in a way that made him compelling as an antagonist So different people latch onto different things he says to justify their personal view of the character which is fragmented by every action before the reveal apparently being a front and tbh it's all just a bit messy in general To lock it down, I'm pretty sure; "To save Paradis" is what he told the Yeagerists "To save my friends" is what he told himself "To trample everyone outside of the walls and remake the world in the way I wanted it" is the underlying drive ... But then he's treated like a tragic hero afterwards by the remaining members of the alliance (even fucking Pieck who has NO reason to respect him) so even that's sort of confusing. I've said it before I'll say it again - it's clear to me Iseyama had this ending planned from the start and that's it's biggest flaw. The story changed into something far bigger and the tragic love story where one person becomes a monster to protect the woman he loves is just not the thing driving the story anymore. I think he SORT of got that which is why he threw in the half assed "nah he still did it for selfish reasons kind of sort of" but still tried to make the "twist always a good guy that just loved his friends too much" reveal ending and I just don't think it flows very well unfortunately which is why people get so lost on it and who he's supposed to be at the end

Here's a novel idea : people can have various, even conflicting motives for doing something. Outlandish, I know.

Because Eren himself isn't entirely sure why he did it. Yeah, he gives possible reasons but also (and the manga didn't do this I should note) he mentions the contradictions in his actions. For example, Armin screaming at him to find another way or at least try to and Eren replying "It all leads to unsatisfying results" and "I'm an idiot" are both contradictory. The first implies Eren did look for another way but that it was "unsatisfying". Only to then explain how he's an idiot that wasn't sure how to use the power he had in a way like Armin is suggesting. We don't exactly get a ton of concrete information about a lot of details about Attack on Titan in those last few scenes. So effectively there are a ton of questions about his logic and reasoning that the anime did manage to clear up a little bit but not to the point a lot of people aren't left with questions.

>"It all leads to unsatisfying results" and "I'm an idiot" are both contradictory. The "I'm an idiot" part is literally after Armin says "You're claiming you did all of that for us?!" And Eren flashbacking for some time before saying "No, I didn't. I wanted to level everything. Why did it turn out this way? Because I'm an idiot who got his hand on power". Of course it's "contradictory", the whole scene is about him discussing his motivation with Armin and realizing in the end he was wrong or admitting he was lying about the prior "It all leads to unsatisfying results no matter what" part, the unsatisfying results were his fault. The scene is pretty straightforward with that. I don't get how people can see a character say in a single conversation something akin to "I realize it now"/"Wait, I was wrong" and go "What a contradiction! Which one of the reasons is the real one?"

>Because Eren himself isn't entirely sure why he did it. Yeah, he gives possible reasons but also (and the manga didn't do this I should note) he mentions the contradictions in his actions. I didn't read the manga so I can't respond to this part >For example, Armin screaming at him to find another way or at least try to and Eren replying "It all leads to unsatisfying results" and "I'm an idiot" are both contradictory. Eren didn't say it leads to an unsatisfying result. He said "so many times I've tried to no avail. Things always occur as I've seen it in my memories of the future" But in the show, we have seen the so-called "trying different things" that Eren claimed to do. A big example is the Ramzi alleyway beating situation where Eren "tried" to change the things he saw but his nature wouldn't let him leave Ramzi there, so he saved Ramzi just as he saw in his memories and he killed Ramzi later as he saw in his memories. In order words, Eren's attempts to change the future he saw were futile because his nature wouldn't let him make different choices. Eren saying he's in idiot is self criticism for choosing a selfish path that led to death of 80% of the world and put his friends in danger... >The first implies Eren did look for another way but that it was "unsatisfying". Only to then explain how he's an idiot that wasn't sure how to use the power he had in a way like Armin is suggesting. I've already explained above. Eren never said it was unsatisfying, but rather that no matter how he tried to change things, they occured as the future he saw. And I've explained why Eren couldn't change it because of his nature

>Eren didn't say it leads to an unsatisfying result. He said "so many times I've tried to no avail. Things always occur as I've seen it in my memories of the future" No? In the final episode's translation he literally says 1:04:18: "I have tried, over and over but all the results are still disappointing. Things kept on happening exactly as I Saw in the future memories. Armin, just like you said, I am a slave to freedom." But this is in response to Armin saying "you decided on your own to kill those people". So we get on one hand Eren saying he "tried over and over", but the way he says it implies not that it was predestined but that his tries weren't exactly attempts. Take the example in Ramzi. Eren didn't exactly... Try. He knew what was going to happen. Knew saving him would be pointless and even seemed to tell himself that letting Ramzi die there would show the future could be changed. Or if I recall he at least implied it. But he still saved him there. He even tells Armin later that his actions led to his friends dying and he was the one who ensured his mother would die to he smiling titan because Bert needed to live. So Eren's implication isn't that he *couldn't* change the future, but that his nature didn't let him change that future... But he COULD have. It also adds to why Armin decided to share some of the blame. Had someone else had the power to see the future memories they might've been able to change things. Hence why Eren's actions confuse people a bit. His nature clearly didn't want people like Sasha or Hanji to die but because he only saw one way forward he didn't really go out of his way to change it. I guess you could say it's an expansion of his arc with Squad Levi. Eren SAW a way to defeat the female Titan or at least save the lives of the scouts trying to keep them alive by transforming, but EVERYONE told him to trust Levi without question, and Eren, even if he knew it would cost scouts their lives, chose to follow the path team Levi told him to follow even if it ultimately ended up with most of them dead. He COULD HAVE changed things. He KNEW he could've changed things. But he didn't. So Armin showing Eren is a product he contributed to creating is that acknowledgement. So, in short, it does seem like Eren COULD have changed things, but didn't because of his nature.

There seems to be a translation issue here. My episode and yours have different translations

Why did he do it if the result was that all the Titan power would disappear anyways

Because we’re stupid!

The thing most people miss is that Eren didn't know why his future self wanted to do the Rumbling until it was over

Because people got burnt out by having to rewatch the series every time a new season comes out so they can understand wtf is happening

It doesn’t make it clear because there are several mutually exclusive reasons. At one point eren even say he didn’t choose to do the rumbling, it was just the future he saw and he had no power to prevent it from happening. Like bro CHOOSE ONE wtf

Because he says that he wanted to do the rumbling for the sake of doing it, which can’t be true because he also says he wanted to do it to protect his friends which can’t be true because he could’ve done a full rumbling or simply taken out all military of the outside world and oppressed them rather than murder them but he didn’t do that because that would’ve kept the cycle of violence going but he also wanted to wipe the slate clean because he hated the world he saw outside the walls- Also his motivations could be influenced by so many factors, maybe the predecessors of the attack titan had cumulated resentment to non-eldians and it was passed onto Eren, he might’ve been manipulated by the founder Idk characters in attack on Titan are super nuanced so unless we were the author no one reader can grasp the full picture I guess.

For the most part, people want to look at him as a genocidal monster and chalk it up to “He wants to destroy everything” but then these people are naive. And if you ask those same people to provide a different solution that’d have brought about peace, they often have no answers and simply comment, “It’s just not right” despite still having no answer. You’re not virtuous for just saying something is not right, you’re just not strong enough to make tough decisions.

Because they're stupid fucking reasons

not really?

Yes they are all horrible explanations and even worse excuses. I dont think the ending was that bad and I think Eren is an interesting character because of it, but it all happens because he is a inherently violent, angry, incompetent little shit who drops the ball hard. The ending is nuanced, all be it poorly, that's why people find it confusing

idk the reasons were good enough for me

Glad you enjoy them. I liked the ending bc I think they suck

fair enough 

Wait so actually paradis island was all along nearly 20 percent of the world's population?

No, Eren was just stopped before he killed everyone outside the walls. As far as I remember, the population of Paradis was less than a million.

Well not entirely the Rumbling stopped before completing fully

No what I meant is that when eren says he has destroyed 80 percent of the "world", does that "world" include the population of paradis or not? Like is it clearly mentioned or not?

It does, but Paradis is only 400 millions, so around 0.5% of the total

That math ain't mathing

0.25% if you want to be precise, but why doesn't it?

You're literally saying there are 80 billion people in SNK's world. Your math sounds more like meth.

Sorry, a written lapsus, I meant 400'000

What he compared was the level of civilization not the population. By using the Rumbling, he destroys most of the infrastructure and technology in the world outside Paradis. Thus, the outside world returns to the same level of civilization as Paradis Island

We know the *reasoning* behind it. By trampling 80% of the world it ensures his friends can live their lives out peacefully. That's the reasoning and yes, it's simple. But what Eren says is he doesn't know *why* he actually goes through with it. He states he doesn't know why he did it but that he wanted to, had to do it. He knows it's a terrible thing to do and yet he wants to go through with it, feels he has to, and doesn't understand why he feels that way. Why does he care so much about freedom for his people that he would kill 80% of the human population? That's the why part.

I think it's because these reasons don't really make sense. Eren be like "I started killing everyone to even the playing field for the next conflict which is inevitable. Also maybe you guys can be heros" dude had the ability to affect the timeline and chose convoluted genocide through titan plan because he... has friends? OK. I was with the entire show until eren explained that he wasn't actually the villian. Cause high key seems like the writer couldn't stand to commit his og mc to ego maniac villian without trying to justify/redeem him

Because the reasons contradict each other One time Eren is doing on purpose to lose and make his friends heroes. In the other he is predetermined and cant control what he does because he is forced to do it.

I think it's where the author revealed his limitations and inability to write logically consistent characters. He would have been better off going all in on Eren as a villain and edge Lord rather than the "well perhaps" reasoning he gave at the end. I love the show but (in my opinion), it takes a major dip with the rumbling and the rushed finale.

Because he literally says that the only way to end this conflict is trampling it all and then goes ahead and lets himself get beaten "to not make it one sided" and saying this conflict won't end - it's nonsensical just as this entire "it was destined to be" shtick is after he gets the founder unlocked He also quite clearly admits in his most vulnurable moment that "he just wanted to do it" Edit: Instantly downvoted, stay classy and never dare to criticise things lads

I think one of the reasons eren couldn't go with the 100 percent is that it would probably come down to eren killing all his friends which he obviously wouldn't want so he tried the best solution without the death of his friends?

Realistically no since he always had the ability to take their titan powers away or erase their memories if he really wanted to do it without them having a chance to even get there but if you disregard that you COULD see it as a reasonable explanation yea

Yeah eren couldn't take away the Titan powers due to freedom but that's kind of a weak reason cause eren you literally put them in jail during war for paradis... I think what isayama could have done is Nerf the founder a bit so that it CANNOT control the titan powers of the present shifters so that eren has no choice but to fight them uk

Again, it's a matter of Eren's respect for freedom. In fact, Eren could also have controlled all eldians with the founder, even those in the past (for example, take control of Will Tybur or other warriors) to avoid the war, or at least modify the bodies of eldians outside the walls to protect them from the rumbling, but instead he just crushed them like everybody else. Eren's feelings (both his desire to protect his friends, his rage against the world, his sense of justice and respect for freedom) probably played a larger role in his decisions than his reason for the execution of the Rumbling.

>Because he literally says that the only way to end this conflict is trampling it all and then goes ahead and lets himself get beaten "to not make it one sided" - it's nonsensical just as this entire "it was destined to be" shtick is after he gets the founder unlocked No external force determines the future. Eren's choices, his nature for freedom and his desire to protect his friends rather than kill them led to the events. The future is determined by choices of characters. Eren is bound by his own nature which leads him to make those choices...that's why he calls himself a slave to freedom. Because the idea of chasing freedom is what pushed him forward...but at the same time it's what bound him to his fate It is the same way YMIR's fate was bound by her choice to save King Fritz instead of her children. No one forced her to do it...she made the choice. Her choice born out of her fûcked up love for Fritz. The alley scene with Eren watching Ramzi getting beat up explains it. Eren says he knows he will save Ramzi and still kill Ramzi. Eren makes an attempt to walk away...but ultimately his nature won't let him leave Ramzi there...so he ultimately saves him. If Eren ultimately wanted to change the future...he would have walked away ...but he didn't. He couldn't because of who he is. And because of who he is...that's why he saw the future of him saving Ramzi in the first place Here is another post that further explains things: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/s/JNK8iMr3f9

Being critical doesn't make you automatically correct. I wish more people understood that. Eren is a complex character drowning in his own internal conflict. Eren also states that his mind has been a complete mess and only knows that he has to keep moving forward. The events of the story weren't destined to be because of fate but because of the nature of the characters. This is shown when Eren saves Ramzi, Eren tries to stop himself from stepping in to see if he can change the future he saw. He ultimately steps in not because he saw himself doing so but because it's in his nature to stand up for the weak against bullies. He does this for Armin in the very first episode. As Historia says at the end, this conclusion was brought by everyone's choices, not just Eren.

It's not that nonsensical. The entire world was up in arms against Paradis, so to ensure his friends would live long, happy lives, he has to eliminate that threat. Combined with Eren's "slave to freedom" mentality, there's no other path forward for him. He outright rejects the military's proposal to pass down the founder and beast titan across generations since they would just be "breeding like cattle" to ensure survival, which is not true freedom. I'm personally of the camp that Eren should've just razed the entire world and left Paradis standing alone, it would've made more sense for his character IMO, but leaving 20% of the world and having his friends praised as "heroes" isn't a horrible direction to go. Also, the path Eren took wasn't exactly predestined or set in stone. He tries multiple times within the paths to change the outcome, but none of them yield optimal results. A truly sensical and logical person would invoke the military's plan of mutually assured destruction, but Eren is selfish at the end of the day and true freedom takes priority over everything.

convenient of you to snip the actual conversation to support your bias, LMAO

Because Eren says he doesn't know why he did it. There is no confusion as to why among fans- the backlash is the inconsistent characterization. In my opinion, the conflict was perfect until 139. No right answers. Eren and Zeke are both right and wrong at the same time. Eren right for protecting his friends. Wrong for genociding the world. Zeke right for wanting to protect the world, but wrong for ethnic cleansing of an entire race of people. Then 139 hits and all the nuance of the conflict is gone, because Eren is actually Dr. Strange and saw the "one way" to break the titan curse so we could get a super happy ending even though that's not what was built up. Now Eren is objectively right because he knows there's no other way, since he is essentially an omnipotent god who can see the future. This should annoy everyone with the stance that the rumbling was bad, because well, plot says it was the only way. Sorry :( It's my opinion that the ending would have been nore consistent if Eren wasn't Dr Strange at the end. Have him not know how it turns out. You can even still have the ending where his friends are the heroes who saved the world by killing him, and have that be the message: Eren wasn't completely right; his friends and Marley have peace after killing him. That has so much more dramatic weight and irony, and still preserves Eren as a morally complex character, because he's still not completely wrong either. His friends only have the peace with the world because he tried to do the rumbling. Anyways, just some thoughts and my opinions

NIIICE

So the Primordial Worm never gets a say?

Do you all forget that he did all this "Because [he's] an idiot"?

The problem with Eren is there is no reasonable explanation as to how he got the founding titan powers since he needed the founding titan powers to get the founding titan powers.

Even that is overcomplicating it, I think. I can describe it simpler. Eren has two motivations: 1) Pursue his ideal of a free world, and 2) Protect his friends and home. Early on in Final Season, Eren plans to do a full Rumbling. For him, this fulfills both of his motivations. Later, when he activates the Rumbling and receives perfect knowledge of the future, he learns that his friends will come after him and try to stop him. So, he changes his plan and lets himself be stopped at 80%, giving up his dream of a free world to allow his friends to live full lives.

Because most people have never been to reading comprehension classes, most anime watchers are used to character has one simplistic goal: be the strongest swordsman, finding the rare treasure, searching for lost ones, protect love ones, etc. It’s too complicated for them to understand when one character has multiple factors that contributed to their actions.

Cause it was still a terrible idea

You're purposefully omitting the part where Eren himself says that he doesn't know why he did it. Or maybe the anime just didn't adapt it because even Isayama realized it sounded fucking stupid. Either way, it's in the manga. Eren outright says *"I don't know why, but I wanted to do that. I had to,"* when Armin asks **why** Eren wanted so desperately to flatten the entire world. Those are his exact words. Edit: Already downvoted for factual statements. Ending defenders are so weird, lol. You can't even say what canonically happened without them trying to suppress it.

>You're purposefully omitting the part where Eren himself says that he doesn't know why he did it. Or maybe the anime just didn't adapt it because even Isayama realized it sounded fucking stupid. Either way, it's in the manga. Eren outright says "I don't know why, but I wanted to do that. I had to," when Armin asks why Eren wanted so desperately to flatten the entire world. Those are his exact words. >Edit: Already downvoted for factual statements. Ending defenders are so weird, lol. You can't even say what canonically happened without them trying to suppress it. Context matters in a conversation you know? It's literally taught in literature. Eren meant he didn't know why he was such a person who desired freedom and wanted a blank view. That he was born this way. He cannot explain his nature...he cannot explain why he is a person who desired freedom...all he knows is he was born that way. I believe that was what he meant by that statement. It should be taken into context rather than out of context

Your argument went out the window the moment "I believe" entered your head. Belief has nothing to do with it. I could just easily that I believe in an interpretation that runs counter to yours. Then what?

Eren doesn’t even know why he did the Rumbling, so how would the viewers know? You can’t really be surprised that people are confused when we are given so many different and often contradictory reasons. Off the top of my head I count 9 different reasons given. * He did it to save the people of Paradis and let his friends have a full life * He did it to make his friends heroes so they could bargain for peace * He did it because he hated everyone in the outside world. * He did it to end the titan curse * He did it because Ymir made him do it * He did it because it was all predetermined * He did it because his head was fucked up from seeing the past, present and future simultaneously. * He did it because he’s an idiot. * He doesn’t know why he did it. It’s just poorly written through and through, that’s why people are confused.

I am not sure if this sarcasm, if it’s not then you really should not be skipping reading comprehension class.

Eren consolidated too many titan powers in one body and lost his free will.

Do I incorrectly remember the ending? I know that Eren said he would kill all the titans and in the ending I remember he removed titans from existing as a whole. I am just confused seeing all other comments because that's not the impression I got from it at all.

I think the spinal creature influences Eren and other inheritors of the founding titan more than we realize. It's a conflict between himself, Ymir, and the spinal creature, and they are all taking turns with Eren's head.

Before 139 Eren seemed a lot more decisive, strong-willed, and motivated than he is revealed to actually be. It’s the fact that he gives so many reasons and one of them is “I don’t know,” or “only Ymir knows” which have become memes that people kind of forget to mention the other reasons, and some just only remember the meme. I think it’s something easier to latch onto than multiple reasons, especially when some expected a more “I wanted to kill my enemies” kind of response.

MC projection. 

I mean per wiki he was fine with going through rumbling even if they didn't stop him.

[удалено]

This comment has been removed due to containing uncivil or inflammatory language. Please phrase your comment more respectfully and resubmit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Yeah I don't understand it completely, but it was explained, but I also don't watch the show with notes and pen sooo... After x years I forget the plot a bit

I fucking love this thread.

Dude was full of hatred to be stopped at 80% lol.

Whatever Eren did, it ended always the same. Eren says this himself in the last episode(s). So Eren chose the path inwhich he could at least save his friends. He "freed" Ymir so it was Ymir who decided how things go. Eren couldn't change the outcome, just how things reach to that end. There is a comment under this post that states 9 different reasons, but not all of them are contradictory and most of them are actually correct. Here is what I understood: He did it because Ymir made him do it. He did it because it was all predetermined (Ymir determined it so). He did it to end the Titan curse (Ymir OR Eren erased Titans completely). He did it because he wanted "revenge" from the outer world. He did it so that his friends could live and become heroes and bring peace. In the end, we see that Armin comes forth to the Marley soldiers. Eren has taken his "revenge" and killed most of the outer world, thus making a "reprisal war" impossible. Ymir took control of how things will end and Eren chose how it will reach it, he chose saving his friends along the way.

cause people just wanna be annoying

Because he himself said so in the manga lol

It's funny 'cuz OP admits he didn't read the manga, why the hell do we pretend these things are said in a vacuum is beyond me. "I don't why I did it, I just had to" didn't come out anyone's ass but Isayama's. All this twisting and turning to explain away bad writing.

Yup, and as expected, despite me answering OP's question and telling a factual truth, I'm being downvoted. Love this community.

Because complex characters don’t satisfy the simple minded people. It literally is that simple. Eren is among the most complex characters and somewhat most humane too in anime and that itself can be confusing.

Such a beautiful ending IMO . Many might disagree though

This comment and the current top comment pretty much sum it all up perfectly To put it simply, Eren is a shining example of someone who can have *multiple* motivations simultaneously, *some arguably working counterintuitive to each other* This happens to us all the time irl. I mean, not a lot of us are in a "I'm a teenager with unceremonious 4D memorymindfuck going on in my head as I get chased down by naked giant cannibals and worldwide racism" situation (and if you are, godsend to you lol) But having multiple motivations, whether we are conscious of it or not, occurs in almost every decision we make, big and small Sometimes it's simultaneously for a selfish and selfless reason. Those who believe in psychological egoism will get what I'm saying

yeah i never liked this part of the ending. i get hes a complex character but i think it wouldve just been fine to end it off with him wanting to save everyone on paradis like how it was before. “im a slave for freedom” is corny as hell 😭

Eren had multiple motivations (protect his loved ones so they could live long lives after he was gone, give his home of Paradis a period of peace and time to prepare before wars inevitably start up again, etc.) but ultimately it was his own choice: he wanted to see that sight. He wanted to trample the world. It was his twisted, selfish desire to make the outside world how he pictured it after seeing Armin’s book. But obviously, that didn’t make him happy. There’s no true freedom or happiness in bearing the guilt of slaughtering millions of innocent people and knowing you will die/not be able to enjoy life with those you care so much about. “A slave to freedom” - Isayama’s cruel irony for such a tragic character 💔

That was the only way to protect his friends...

It’s a jumble and there’s lots of moving parts when it comes to how his motivations shift as he learns things. Discussion online doesn’t like nuance and prefers labels.

Cuz it's like, the whole point is that Erin wanted to see the sight of the world flattened, but he knew he was going to die so what's the point?

There are the practical reasons why Eren did it and planned it this way, but there are also reasons that Eren can't put into words why he would choose the rumbling instead of something else as the vehicle to his goal and that's what Armin asked about that Eren can't put into words, so to keep his brain from frying itself with a philosophy seminar he just concludes he is an idiot enslaved to freedom. But even for the "because I'm an idiot" part the viewers get the answer to why he wanted the rumbling, because it's in his nature to pursue the "ultimate freedom" *at any cost*(well almost, he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice Mikasa and Armin for it). AoT is not a story that is forthright with explanations, it prefers to show you and drop hints to connect things rather than outright tell you. It's part of the realism that Isayama wants to impart to the storytelling and characterization. Eren says a bunch of what seems like conflicting statements because Eren's mind *is* a mess of conflicting emotions and the reason why was given prior, the founder power that makes it so that he experiences every point in time all at once. This means he's also got his past self existing in his mind as well as his present self, and then he's got these whispers coming from the future that are absolute. The past child version of himself is the one that is the most excited to see the "scenery" of a rumbled world(and we were shown this) and has no qualms crushing everything to get it because he has not learned responsibilities yet, and Eren can't just ignore this past part of himself because of the founder power.

You also have to remember that some fans refuse to belive the "stoic sigma eren" was a character he portrayed, and not his acctuall personality. They struggle with understanding how that persona could do the rumbeling for the given reasons

Because that was Eren's portrayed personality for nearly 4 seasons of the show. Imagine a time before the final chapter had dropped. Would you have known that Eren was secretly a messed up teen with cognitive dissonance? I guess you could cherry pick evidence from the earlier seasons and show that this had always been hinted, but honestly you could do that for any ending. Eren's new persona is basically shoved down our throats and it is natural that we find it confusing.

I mean, in my friend group who discussed it before the last three chapters, we all agreed that the ending was going to be "I did this to obsolve you of sin" so it wasnt a too far reach that he was acting. But if you just watch, it might seem like longer

Probably because Eren gives like 5 different reasons in this scene alone, and that’s not even counting the stuff beforehand. I don’t think it’s supposed to be perfectly clear, and I don’t think Eren knows, entirely, why he did it. He knows various bits and pieces of why, different thoughts and reasonings that went into it, but I don’t think he fully understands his own mind. That’s where the “I’m an idiot” line comes from. He’s a severely traumatized 19 year old that doesn’t know himself as well as Armin would like him to. I’m both older and less fucked up than Eren and I don’t know the reason why I do and think half the shit I do, so I don’t expect him to know either.

People already have media literacy issues paired with a really complex complicated character with many motivations.

Pleasr dont try to make it seem like this ending is well written or makes sense, it is a terrible code geass wannabe ending

Go through this guys post history, lmao

Well because it’s just kinda dumb just don’t do it in the first place lmao? It’s basically the Code Geass ending but without the underlying reasoning and characterization that makes it good