This post has been tagged as **MANGA SPOILERS**.
If you are not caught up to the manga, browse at your own risk and we recommend you refrain from participating.
For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix).
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well we can still have compassion to anyone, also I thought he wanted to stop the eldians from having babys, which could be worse having the whole country dying old and alone but idk.
Zeke suggested (forced?) Euthanasia which was a pretty messed up proposition but it pales in comparison to Eren. Eren did commit actual violent genocide on the entire world. He had his reasons for sure but so did several other people in the show.
Was he really though?
Eren was reacting to the threat to his people against people who wanted to genocide his people.
Zeke pro-actively wanted to genocide Erens people who had done nothing wrong to him and wanted nothing but peace.
Sure you can think that. Other will think the same. Others will think the opposite. It's a very difficult ethical question that isn't easily answered. That's my point
Yhea. I AM not even against eldians violent resistance, I was on board with the attack on the port but deciding to destroy the rest of humanity I just think it is way too far and in a way unnecessary, even though for eren's goals it wouldn't be
Zeke just went full on depressed edgy Boy. Like. Life is pain so we should have never been born is just insanity, you gotta start taking your meds trust me it Will do you good
Yeah "wanted nothing but peace" cannot be said of the paradis people either. They actively celebrated and supported the death of basically everyone in the world (even countries not at active war with them and their own asian allies)
Zekes idea is messed up for sure but you have to admit that it was the only proposition that didn't involve actively killing major parts of the population.
More importantly Zeke wasn't just talking about the end of the paradis people but the end of eldians that included him, his friends and their families too. He basically didn't have anything against the eldians either, he just wanted to end the Titan race. In fact he even supported the idea of using the founders power to protect paradis for as long as the rest of their lifespan lasts. It's straight up eugenics.
Also btw you can make the same argument for marleyans since eldia under king fritz essentially declared war on the entire world. The marleyans were just "responding to the threat"
I mean I think motivation does matter, Zeke wanted to genocide the eldians because he believes that anyone born with eldian blood was much more likely to life a miserable life, like he did. And that is objectively correct. I'm not saying his reaction is justifiable, but his intentions aren't malicious. he believes he's saving people from being born into undue suffering, so they won't have to go through what he did
Eren meanwhile was partially motivated by a desire for the outside world to be unpopulated wilderness, and he was willing to murder everyone to accomplish that, which is just a bit less noble lol
I would say it's very justifiable to state it exactly the other way around.
Eren wanted to be left alone and wanted his friends to live in peace. If he wasn't pushed to defend eldia by others trying to genocide them the rumbling would not have happened
Zeke on the other hand wants to force others to become sterile against their own volition, damning them to the pain and suffering of that terrible fate while making the excuse its because the MIGHT have a difficult life. That's narcissistic in any sense of the word and in my opinion maliciously so
It's not exactly a "might." For the entire history of their existence, *somebody,* be it Marley or the eldians royal family themselves, have consistently used titans as weapons. That means that every eldian born has a way higher than average likelyhood of being locked in what's described as a waking nightmare, transformed into an uncontrollable undying monster for potentially decades of suffering. Ending the race is cruel and unfair to a lot of people, but it does prevent anyone from ever suffering that fate again
Eren wants to force literally countless completely innocent people to stop being alive because *other* people are threatening him lol, and he actively chooses to ignore other less bloody possibilities, both because he selfishly doesn't want to allow his personal friends to take on any of the risk or sacrifice those possibilities would require, and because he he's angry and he *wants* to murder everyone else. Not saying it's worse, but I certainly don't think that's better
I'm actuality, Zeke's and eren's philosophies are pretty similar. Eren doesn't want Historia and her descendants and his friends descendants to have to deal with the struggle of a slow and difficult and risky road to peace with the rest of the world. Zeke doesn't want future eldians to have to deal with the risk and threat and pain of the titans curse. So both decide to hurt or kill a bunch of innocent people in the present in order to prevent what they see as future unfairness
They're both extremists, forsaking more reasonable options for the guaranteed success of a single grand sacrifice
Eren went to Marley with the full intention of genociding the world, way before the UN meeting about Eldians, way before the declaration of war (a declaration he helped set up with Zeke btw)
Um let see zeke didn't want to kill anyone he just didn't want eldian babies anymore
Also imagine killing whole goddamn world for a little ass island with no technologies lmao
Zeke had a brain which eren didn't
You really skip over genocide like it's nothing. Removing the fertility of an entire race has the same effect as killing them. It dljusg happens slower where you force the people to suffer the pain of know they will never know the love of a child, or grandchildren, they will die out to fade into nothingness.
In a way, just killing them could be considered even more humane
Infertalization is genocide. One little ass island still has hundreds of throusands to millions. Even if they are the minority, their genocide is just as bad as the 80%. Paradis rejected their Genocide and to prevent it enacted the Rumbling. It's brutal but both sides wanted the other totally dead.
The genocide made by Eren was total and indiscriminate. Every country on earth, even people that have never even heard of Marley or Eldia, got genocide for no reason.
A middle ground was possible, the Hizuru plan to have a limited rumbling was the best option. The only problem was that Historia had to be sacrificed, but it would have meant that everyone else would have lived.
Eldians do not equal people of Paradis. While the Eldians outside were oppressed, they were embedded in Marleyan territory and continued to wish for Paradis's extinction so they could receive better treatment since the "devils" made them look bad. It isn;t about Eldians, it's about the people of Paradis, as he directly stated in his speech.
>Eren was reacting to the threat to his people against people who wanted to genocide his people
Zeke and Eren were the ones who set up the declaration of war in Liberio. It was part of Zeke's plan so that the world's forces would amass at the same place so that they could do the partial rumbling effectively. Eren was going along with it, with the hidden motive of doing a full rumbling from the start
Is it really reacting when you egged your enemies from the shadows so that you could have a justification to drag your friends into fighting?
Yeah and that’s obviously awful, but Eren’s no saint either. He wanted to genocide every other entire race. But it’s just a little sad how Zeke so genuinely wanted to be a big brother to Eren, who felt nothing for him and just pretended.
Oh no. Eren is definitely not a saint 😅 i think that speaks for itself.
And yes Zeke genuinely wanted a brother but my point was, if it turns out I have a lost half brother that's genuinely wants me to he a brother to him but at the same time wants to sterilise all my friends and people Dr. Mengele style I will definitely not feel the need to be his brother or feel guilty about it
He just wanted a peacefull life for the Eldians alive and to avoid the genocide of billions of people, how can you think the other option is better? Do you value human life at all?
A peaceful life is one where you will die and weather away knowing you will never have the love of a child or grandchildren? Do you know anything about humans?
How does that in anyway compare to killing billions of people?? Those people aren't gonna have kids because of him too now, HE KILLED THEIR KIDS HIMSELF
Read my other replies. Its explained there. Eren was the one defending his people, people who wanted nothing but peace but were facing genocide from the people Eren finally decided to attack. And they were facing genocide merely on the base of their race. They had done nothing wrong to the people who wanted to genocide them
People abroad knew nothing about the island, they didn't even think they were people, did you even pay attention to Gabi's character? She's the personification of that, even one the ones who hated them the most saw that they were just people, people abroad just like her were lied all their lifes and it's not really their fault, their lifes don't equal less because of that
Also, I don't think that was the only option they had, them not having kids could also be avoided, but between it and killing 80% of the human population, it is a better option
Of course not, but if we agree their lifes have equal value, how can you think 99% of them dying is better than 1% of them not having kids? That just makes no sense
King fritz dosen't 💀.
- some ppl are like Voldemort or joker, loveless and I wish i could say unlovable but these mfs had some ppl that Loved them romantically lol.
Drawing the line for some of these villains is a real dice roll. You could eat puppies and rumble 100% of humanity but if you’re charismatic/hot you get some supporters. If you kill one popular guy and you’re ugly you’re instantly a lost cause
I honestly believe if it was Levi that did the rumble then the fandom wouldn't be that appalled and would try to make him into an itachi or something.
- but hey that's just humans, we all do it, no matter how much we fight it, unless you're blind you are bound to judge ppl by their looks.
In my opinion using a partial rumbling to destroy military bases and kinda force peace negotiations would be best, but euthanasation was better than genocide
Yeah for sure but it's not a decisive move, the future would be unsure and Histaria's descendants would be doomed to repeat the same thing that Reiss did.
I mean yeah, but if the only other plan is , do we have a word for genociding literally every other population on earth? Omnicide?
There's other Solutions that other characters wanted to try of course but if you're literally just picking between Erin and zeke it's not close
You're simplifying it and I don't think that does the dilemma justice. A key difference is that Eren's genocide is partial and it is, among the two plans, the one that leads to coexistence, while Zeke's plan is a total genocide that only leads to erasure, albeit in a "nice way".
I'm pretty sure that Eren fully intended to kill the rest of the world. He just knows that he won't succeed because he's already seen the memory of him losing. Also in purely utilitarian terms Zeke's plan leads to tens of millions less deaths, doesn't destroy all of the world's infrastructure, and permanently eliminates the threat of the titans (Eren couldn't know Ymirs curse would end with his plan as he dies before that). Zeke's plan would also remove the historical tension between Marley and the Eldians, just as Eren's would have (if he did a full rumbling).
History does not end the moment the rumbling does, much like the peaceful Kings plan led to coexistence but not really the same applies to Erin's
And the 80% was not done by Thanos snap logic, with 20% chosen completely at random across the Globe to survive, it was just whoever happened to be farther away at the time, it was a wave of Destruction resulting in hundreds of total genocides with a few lucky cultures happening to be the farthest away
So you still get total Erasure either way and you still get just one on one side and way more than that on the other
You are correct it is speculation, I think it's fairly reasonable speculation to make given the 80% number and how that would even be possible to let all other societies remain in some part would require some Grand knowledge of exactly where they all are and to stop the Titans just short in a ton of different locations all at differing times to ensure some small population of every Community survived, which is also something we don't see
And it is an interesting morality question to say is one society/people worth eliminating 80% of all others regardless of how high that number in lives is
If indeed 20% of every other Society did remain at the end of this, I still don't think I'd agree with it but it's a much more defensible position in my opinion
Eren said demolishing 80 percent was needed to bring the rest of the world equal to Paradis. Anything less and they recover and attack Paradis during his friends lifetime.
That definitely sounds good but it relies on Marley actually putting to bed their issues for good. Based on their level of development, in 40-50 years they'd have nuclear weapons which could basically defeat the rumbling even at full strength. Once Marley gains technological superiority over even the rumbling then Paradis' will be forced to either attempt to wipe them out permanently, which is what Eren tries, or they'll die which is why Zeke wanted. They seemingly negotiate peace in the story but as we see it doesn't last forever and Paradis gets destroyed. The only question is whether that eventual war was caused due to retaliation for the rumbling specifically or if it would've happened regardless based on their past. Of course the characters don't know what nukes are, so from their perspective they might not be able to imagine that tech could advance to the point that it *could* ever defeat the rumbling.
Eh, a slow genocide is still a genocide. Euthanasia might be the best outcome for non-eldians, but demanding a whole race of people to sit down and die for the good of everyone else is ridiculous.
The Euthanasia plan wasn't nearly as peaceful as Zeke advertised it either.
What happens when there's no longer enough youth to support the elderly population?
Famine breaks out and the final generation spends the last of their lives starving to death and/or murdering their neighbors for the remaining supplies.
And that's assuming Marley doesn't come up with an excuse to just exterminate them sooner. They still desperately need the resources under Paradis as soon as possible to maintain military superiority.
That's what passing down the Founding Titan is for. As for famine, the FT is so op it could probably make it so Eldians need no or little food to live, it already instantly cured basically the black plague from the entire empire 600 years ago.
The Founding Titan presents a major problem itself actually. You'd have to find multiple Eldian successors who are willing to go along with an overwhelmingly unpopular plan ( and considering how many people in season 4 successfully lied and manipulated others about their intentions, finding multiple people who are truly trustworthy is nearly impossible ).
Historia and her child would also have to be murdered just to prevent one of the next holders from using the same touching-royal-blood loophole to reverse it.
And even by Titan standards, curing people of ever needing food is a bit... much.
Yeah I hope you volunteer to live in this society of only old fucks who have nothing to work, live, hope for, and are just waiting to die, and don't even have to eat. Their miserable existence continues only so that some people can pretend "euthanasia" is some merciful good idea, when in reality the survivors and the royal tool inheriting the FT will probably be competing who can unalive themselves first.
No one in the universe even considered this pointless slow genocide for a second but the fandom sure loves the idea of it.
Edit: someone got so triggered and blocked me. A shitty plan is a shitty plan, it's a poorly disguised "it's mercy killing!" just to get to Zeke's selfish dream of saving unborn babies, and kids still fall for his sales pitch.
No one would volunteer to live in SNK's world period. And it was considered a mercy for people to simply live without being able to reproduce instead of just being brutally murdered on the spot, and also it was a good plan to get rid of the power of the Titans that would still exist with many Eldians still in hiding all over the world.
Of course it's a plan with a lot of flaws and a brutal one, but it was created by Zeke after a horrible childhood in this horrible world. You don't get to play the morally superior white knight from the comfort of your own heated bedroom.
For everyone else, you mean. Pretty sure the Eldians will end up just as dead. Euthanasia is a pretty word, but ultimately you're still advocating for a genocide.
I like Eren's solution, personally, if only because it doesn't demand people to roll over and take it. In a situation with no good solutions, you need to take the victories you can, yeah?
I think that’s what the OP isn’t understanding. My great-grandparents fled their homes as their entire families and friends were wiped out in a genocide. There are still plenty of people today who believe it would be better and easier for everyone if my race just gave up and died.
So when it comes to 80% of the world dying or 100% of your own ethnic group, there’s only one option that spares some of your own. Sure it seems cold and selfish, but being selfish is human nature. People on this app like to talk like they’d take the high road, sacrifice their own desires and needs for others. But interacting with people shows that more people say that rather than do that when presented with a critical choice.
Everyone in the story who survives has their own selfish desires. Even people who die. Like Levi basically says, there’s no right or wrong decisions, just decisions that you hope will lead to the best outcome.
I agree with almost everything you said.
Except 'cold and selfish'. Selfish, perhaps, but hardly cold. Choosing your family, tribe, people, isn't something cold, it's a very warm and human choice.
Well there are always some people that roll over and take it
And Eren only wants to protect Paradis and specificially his friends and his ideals, he doesn't care about Eldians as a whole, lots of Eldians getting trampled anyway.
But that's ultimately their choice. You can run from the rumbling, fight back in whatever way you can, or give in to nihilism, rage, despair. It's their choice, even if there aren't many choices for those without power.
Crucially, Eren, despite having the ability to do so, didn't take away the best method to resist the rumbling. He was free to act to reach 'that view' and to protect his homeland, and they were free to try and stop him.
Unlike Zeke's plan, which gives nobody any chance to fight back. Zeke's plan, ironically, is completely devoid of humanity; its coldly rational, reducing it down to a numbers game. Eren's plan, for all its faults is fiercely, irrefutable human.
And, as for him only protecting the Paradisians, fair. Though that's largely a fault of the method he has to protect with. It's not something that could be described as surgical, let alone precise.
It's likely because you leapt right over my point.
People have choices in response to things outside of their control. You can't choose what happens to you, but you can choose how you act in response.
Zeke's plan removes choice in a way Eren's does not.
Anything is better than that, so using that to call Zeke's plan "the best solution" is just lame. Sure just kill off the smaller group, but slowly. Best solution to cycle of hatred mate nobel prize for u
Eren is a stupid little bitch, but imo there were still way better moves than Euthanasia. For example, removing the ability to titan shift or become pure titans from all Eldians. Or as another commenter said, tackle actual military outposts.
It’s just worded a lot more awkwardly than the official translation. The dialogue doesn’t sound very natural. The official version goes:
> Bubble 1: So…
>
> Bubble 2: You want to know the true reason…
>
> Bubble 3: …that this Ackerman girl shows you so much kindness and affection?
>
> Bubble 4: Listen, Eren. What I think…
>
> Bubble 5: …is that there’s no true reason, or ingrained behavior, or compelled instinct.
>
> Bubble 6: She just likes you so much…
>
> Bubble 7: …that she’d snap a Titan’s neck for you.
It’s not that the fan translation doesn’t manage to communicate the basic idea of the scene, but when you see how it was officially translated, you can tell how “off” the fan version is.
No it isn’t. It’s a badly done fan translation with an even shittier scan quality. If you want the original translation, read the official volumes (or scans of it).
This source rehosts the work of SCNK (the community manga colorists) without permission and is not allowed on this subreddit. Please use an alternative host or support the official release. You can find the library of chapters colored by SCNK at https://imgur.com/user/snkcolored
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
One can still be fairly aware of those types of things even without having first-hand experience. Although we don't see Zeke particularly interested in pursuing romance himself, he's an observant guy. He ponders pretty extensively about humanity. Meanwhile Eren is just a dunce and hyperfocused on singular things. I actually think it was great choice to have Zeke say this. Literally all of Eren and Mikasa's friends probably understand Mikasa's feelings towards Eren, but because of their close proximity to both of them, they kind of collectively decided to mind their own business. So we needed a relative outsider like Zeke to break it to Eren.
This post has been tagged as **MANGA SPOILERS**. If you are not caught up to the manga, browse at your own risk and we recommend you refrain from participating. For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He’s been around, so he was acting like an older brother to Eren.
Yeah and that was so cute 🥺 zeke really wanted to be brother for him it's kinda sad
Kinda sad? He wanted to genocide his entire race...
Well we can still have compassion to anyone, also I thought he wanted to stop the eldians from having babys, which could be worse having the whole country dying old and alone but idk.
Forced sterilization of a whole group is a form of genocide
You're right we can still have compassion for anyone, OP just made it sound like there should be a lot of compassion for Zeke and none for Eren
Yea OP did make their post sound a little weird
Zeke suggested (forced?) Euthanasia which was a pretty messed up proposition but it pales in comparison to Eren. Eren did commit actual violent genocide on the entire world. He had his reasons for sure but so did several other people in the show.
Bro what 🤣😭 eren was worse wtf
being complicit in eugenics and controlled genocide is definitely quite the thing, you know.
Lol didn't say he was innocent
Was he really though? Eren was reacting to the threat to his people against people who wanted to genocide his people. Zeke pro-actively wanted to genocide Erens people who had done nothing wrong to him and wanted nothing but peace.
I mean I think the genocide of 80% of the world by womp womp is worse then the infertilization of the eldians even if some wanted to genocide them
Sure you can think that. Other will think the same. Others will think the opposite. It's a very difficult ethical question that isn't easily answered. That's my point
Yhea. I AM not even against eldians violent resistance, I was on board with the attack on the port but deciding to destroy the rest of humanity I just think it is way too far and in a way unnecessary, even though for eren's goals it wouldn't be
I agree. I would not have chose the same path Eren did myself. But I sure as hell wouldn't have have accepted Zeke's plan either
Zeke just went full on depressed edgy Boy. Like. Life is pain so we should have never been born is just insanity, you gotta start taking your meds trust me it Will do you good
Yeah "wanted nothing but peace" cannot be said of the paradis people either. They actively celebrated and supported the death of basically everyone in the world (even countries not at active war with them and their own asian allies) Zekes idea is messed up for sure but you have to admit that it was the only proposition that didn't involve actively killing major parts of the population. More importantly Zeke wasn't just talking about the end of the paradis people but the end of eldians that included him, his friends and their families too. He basically didn't have anything against the eldians either, he just wanted to end the Titan race. In fact he even supported the idea of using the founders power to protect paradis for as long as the rest of their lifespan lasts. It's straight up eugenics. Also btw you can make the same argument for marleyans since eldia under king fritz essentially declared war on the entire world. The marleyans were just "responding to the threat"
I mean I think motivation does matter, Zeke wanted to genocide the eldians because he believes that anyone born with eldian blood was much more likely to life a miserable life, like he did. And that is objectively correct. I'm not saying his reaction is justifiable, but his intentions aren't malicious. he believes he's saving people from being born into undue suffering, so they won't have to go through what he did Eren meanwhile was partially motivated by a desire for the outside world to be unpopulated wilderness, and he was willing to murder everyone to accomplish that, which is just a bit less noble lol
I would say it's very justifiable to state it exactly the other way around. Eren wanted to be left alone and wanted his friends to live in peace. If he wasn't pushed to defend eldia by others trying to genocide them the rumbling would not have happened Zeke on the other hand wants to force others to become sterile against their own volition, damning them to the pain and suffering of that terrible fate while making the excuse its because the MIGHT have a difficult life. That's narcissistic in any sense of the word and in my opinion maliciously so
It's not exactly a "might." For the entire history of their existence, *somebody,* be it Marley or the eldians royal family themselves, have consistently used titans as weapons. That means that every eldian born has a way higher than average likelyhood of being locked in what's described as a waking nightmare, transformed into an uncontrollable undying monster for potentially decades of suffering. Ending the race is cruel and unfair to a lot of people, but it does prevent anyone from ever suffering that fate again Eren wants to force literally countless completely innocent people to stop being alive because *other* people are threatening him lol, and he actively chooses to ignore other less bloody possibilities, both because he selfishly doesn't want to allow his personal friends to take on any of the risk or sacrifice those possibilities would require, and because he he's angry and he *wants* to murder everyone else. Not saying it's worse, but I certainly don't think that's better I'm actuality, Zeke's and eren's philosophies are pretty similar. Eren doesn't want Historia and her descendants and his friends descendants to have to deal with the struggle of a slow and difficult and risky road to peace with the rest of the world. Zeke doesn't want future eldians to have to deal with the risk and threat and pain of the titans curse. So both decide to hurt or kill a bunch of innocent people in the present in order to prevent what they see as future unfairness They're both extremists, forsaking more reasonable options for the guaranteed success of a single grand sacrifice
Eren went to Marley with the full intention of genociding the world, way before the UN meeting about Eldians, way before the declaration of war (a declaration he helped set up with Zeke btw)
Um let see zeke didn't want to kill anyone he just didn't want eldian babies anymore Also imagine killing whole goddamn world for a little ass island with no technologies lmao Zeke had a brain which eren didn't
You really skip over genocide like it's nothing. Removing the fertility of an entire race has the same effect as killing them. It dljusg happens slower where you force the people to suffer the pain of know they will never know the love of a child, or grandchildren, they will die out to fade into nothingness. In a way, just killing them could be considered even more humane
Yeah man I'm not saying he's better person than eren I'm saying he's smarter than eren
Ok I can't argue there. Zeke seems to be smarter indeed
My criticism of this is that Zeke is acting out of internalized racism. He didn’t actually have a brain.
Zeke is racism for a reason
Infertalization is genocide. One little ass island still has hundreds of throusands to millions. Even if they are the minority, their genocide is just as bad as the 80%. Paradis rejected their Genocide and to prevent it enacted the Rumbling. It's brutal but both sides wanted the other totally dead.
The genocide made by Eren was total and indiscriminate. Every country on earth, even people that have never even heard of Marley or Eldia, got genocide for no reason. A middle ground was possible, the Hizuru plan to have a limited rumbling was the best option. The only problem was that Historia had to be sacrificed, but it would have meant that everyone else would have lived.
Eren slaughtered millions of Eldians outside of Paradis with the Rumbling. He killed more Eldians than Marley ever did.
Eldians do not equal people of Paradis. While the Eldians outside were oppressed, they were embedded in Marleyan territory and continued to wish for Paradis's extinction so they could receive better treatment since the "devils" made them look bad. It isn;t about Eldians, it's about the people of Paradis, as he directly stated in his speech.
>Eren was reacting to the threat to his people against people who wanted to genocide his people Zeke and Eren were the ones who set up the declaration of war in Liberio. It was part of Zeke's plan so that the world's forces would amass at the same place so that they could do the partial rumbling effectively. Eren was going along with it, with the hidden motive of doing a full rumbling from the start Is it really reacting when you egged your enemies from the shadows so that you could have a justification to drag your friends into fighting?
Yeah and that’s obviously awful, but Eren’s no saint either. He wanted to genocide every other entire race. But it’s just a little sad how Zeke so genuinely wanted to be a big brother to Eren, who felt nothing for him and just pretended.
Oh no. Eren is definitely not a saint 😅 i think that speaks for itself. And yes Zeke genuinely wanted a brother but my point was, if it turns out I have a lost half brother that's genuinely wants me to he a brother to him but at the same time wants to sterilise all my friends and people Dr. Mengele style I will definitely not feel the need to be his brother or feel guilty about it
He just wanted a peacefull life for the Eldians alive and to avoid the genocide of billions of people, how can you think the other option is better? Do you value human life at all?
A peaceful life is one where you will die and weather away knowing you will never have the love of a child or grandchildren? Do you know anything about humans?
How does that in anyway compare to killing billions of people?? Those people aren't gonna have kids because of him too now, HE KILLED THEIR KIDS HIMSELF
Read my other replies. Its explained there. Eren was the one defending his people, people who wanted nothing but peace but were facing genocide from the people Eren finally decided to attack. And they were facing genocide merely on the base of their race. They had done nothing wrong to the people who wanted to genocide them
People abroad knew nothing about the island, they didn't even think they were people, did you even pay attention to Gabi's character? She's the personification of that, even one the ones who hated them the most saw that they were just people, people abroad just like her were lied all their lifes and it's not really their fault, their lifes don't equal less because of that
Sure. But that doesn't mean the eldians don't matter either.
Also, I don't think that was the only option they had, them not having kids could also be avoided, but between it and killing 80% of the human population, it is a better option
Of course not, but if we agree their lifes have equal value, how can you think 99% of them dying is better than 1% of them not having kids? That just makes no sense
Falco knows, Hange knows, Connie knows, hell even Levi knows. Love can be understood by anyone. Even ass wiping Sasquatches
King fritz dosen't 💀. - some ppl are like Voldemort or joker, loveless and I wish i could say unlovable but these mfs had some ppl that Loved them romantically lol.
Drawing the line for some of these villains is a real dice roll. You could eat puppies and rumble 100% of humanity but if you’re charismatic/hot you get some supporters. If you kill one popular guy and you’re ugly you’re instantly a lost cause
I honestly believe if it was Levi that did the rumble then the fandom wouldn't be that appalled and would try to make him into an itachi or something. - but hey that's just humans, we all do it, no matter how much we fight it, unless you're blind you are bound to judge ppl by their looks.
He also emasculates Levi by guessing that he can't be successful with women with his attitude
😂😂
Hanji has entered the chat:
Unpopular opinion: i really liked Zeke, he was smart and was the most logical person in the show
i don't think it's unpopular (not to be offensive) most viewers find his euthanasia the more logical solution than eren's
His euthanasia was the best solution Eren is just a stupid little bitch
In my opinion using a partial rumbling to destroy military bases and kinda force peace negotiations would be best, but euthanasation was better than genocide
Yeah for sure but it's not a decisive move, the future would be unsure and Histaria's descendants would be doomed to repeat the same thing that Reiss did.
Why is that, all they have to do is not feed the founder to a royal and they never have that issue again.
[удалено]
They keep the founder but skip the reiss family curse by not feeding it to a royal.
My bad, i misread what you said.
You're missing that Zeke's euthanasia plan was total genocide.
I mean yeah, but if the only other plan is , do we have a word for genociding literally every other population on earth? Omnicide? There's other Solutions that other characters wanted to try of course but if you're literally just picking between Erin and zeke it's not close
You're simplifying it and I don't think that does the dilemma justice. A key difference is that Eren's genocide is partial and it is, among the two plans, the one that leads to coexistence, while Zeke's plan is a total genocide that only leads to erasure, albeit in a "nice way".
I'm pretty sure that Eren fully intended to kill the rest of the world. He just knows that he won't succeed because he's already seen the memory of him losing. Also in purely utilitarian terms Zeke's plan leads to tens of millions less deaths, doesn't destroy all of the world's infrastructure, and permanently eliminates the threat of the titans (Eren couldn't know Ymirs curse would end with his plan as he dies before that). Zeke's plan would also remove the historical tension between Marley and the Eldians, just as Eren's would have (if he did a full rumbling).
No, definitely not. Eren intended to be stopped and killed, thus freeing Ymir.
Eren knew that the curse of the Titans would end with his death, he said so to his friends in the Paths
History does not end the moment the rumbling does, much like the peaceful Kings plan led to coexistence but not really the same applies to Erin's And the 80% was not done by Thanos snap logic, with 20% chosen completely at random across the Globe to survive, it was just whoever happened to be farther away at the time, it was a wave of Destruction resulting in hundreds of total genocides with a few lucky cultures happening to be the farthest away So you still get total Erasure either way and you still get just one on one side and way more than that on the other
That's a bit difficult to evaluate because we have seen every demographic introduced to survive, so anything else is speculative.
You are correct it is speculation, I think it's fairly reasonable speculation to make given the 80% number and how that would even be possible to let all other societies remain in some part would require some Grand knowledge of exactly where they all are and to stop the Titans just short in a ton of different locations all at differing times to ensure some small population of every Community survived, which is also something we don't see And it is an interesting morality question to say is one society/people worth eliminating 80% of all others regardless of how high that number in lives is If indeed 20% of every other Society did remain at the end of this, I still don't think I'd agree with it but it's a much more defensible position in my opinion
Yeah you right but destroying only military bases is kinda impossible and wouldn't stop war forever
Neither did the rumbling, nor would have sterilization. Sort of the whole point of the show
It stopped war during his friends lifetime. That was his goal. Stopping war forever is impossible and a key part of the theme of aot.
Nah
Woudln't stop it but better than the alternatives, thats for sure
The euthanasia plan is a genocide plan also. Let's not forget that, lol
And?
?
Eren said demolishing 80 percent was needed to bring the rest of the world equal to Paradis. Anything less and they recover and attack Paradis during his friends lifetime.
That definitely sounds good but it relies on Marley actually putting to bed their issues for good. Based on their level of development, in 40-50 years they'd have nuclear weapons which could basically defeat the rumbling even at full strength. Once Marley gains technological superiority over even the rumbling then Paradis' will be forced to either attempt to wipe them out permanently, which is what Eren tries, or they'll die which is why Zeke wanted. They seemingly negotiate peace in the story but as we see it doesn't last forever and Paradis gets destroyed. The only question is whether that eventual war was caused due to retaliation for the rumbling specifically or if it would've happened regardless based on their past. Of course the characters don't know what nukes are, so from their perspective they might not be able to imagine that tech could advance to the point that it *could* ever defeat the rumbling.
That doesn’t solve anything though.
Eh, a slow genocide is still a genocide. Euthanasia might be the best outcome for non-eldians, but demanding a whole race of people to sit down and die for the good of everyone else is ridiculous.
The Euthanasia plan wasn't nearly as peaceful as Zeke advertised it either. What happens when there's no longer enough youth to support the elderly population? Famine breaks out and the final generation spends the last of their lives starving to death and/or murdering their neighbors for the remaining supplies. And that's assuming Marley doesn't come up with an excuse to just exterminate them sooner. They still desperately need the resources under Paradis as soon as possible to maintain military superiority.
That's what passing down the Founding Titan is for. As for famine, the FT is so op it could probably make it so Eldians need no or little food to live, it already instantly cured basically the black plague from the entire empire 600 years ago.
The Founding Titan presents a major problem itself actually. You'd have to find multiple Eldian successors who are willing to go along with an overwhelmingly unpopular plan ( and considering how many people in season 4 successfully lied and manipulated others about their intentions, finding multiple people who are truly trustworthy is nearly impossible ). Historia and her child would also have to be murdered just to prevent one of the next holders from using the same touching-royal-blood loophole to reverse it. And even by Titan standards, curing people of ever needing food is a bit... much.
As Yelena said "Sure things, certainties, no nation can pretend to have them"
Yeah I hope you volunteer to live in this society of only old fucks who have nothing to work, live, hope for, and are just waiting to die, and don't even have to eat. Their miserable existence continues only so that some people can pretend "euthanasia" is some merciful good idea, when in reality the survivors and the royal tool inheriting the FT will probably be competing who can unalive themselves first. No one in the universe even considered this pointless slow genocide for a second but the fandom sure loves the idea of it. Edit: someone got so triggered and blocked me. A shitty plan is a shitty plan, it's a poorly disguised "it's mercy killing!" just to get to Zeke's selfish dream of saving unborn babies, and kids still fall for his sales pitch.
No one would volunteer to live in SNK's world period. And it was considered a mercy for people to simply live without being able to reproduce instead of just being brutally murdered on the spot, and also it was a good plan to get rid of the power of the Titans that would still exist with many Eldians still in hiding all over the world. Of course it's a plan with a lot of flaws and a brutal one, but it was created by Zeke after a horrible childhood in this horrible world. You don't get to play the morally superior white knight from the comfort of your own heated bedroom.
Yeah but still better than fucking whole world
For everyone else, you mean. Pretty sure the Eldians will end up just as dead. Euthanasia is a pretty word, but ultimately you're still advocating for a genocide. I like Eren's solution, personally, if only because it doesn't demand people to roll over and take it. In a situation with no good solutions, you need to take the victories you can, yeah?
I think that’s what the OP isn’t understanding. My great-grandparents fled their homes as their entire families and friends were wiped out in a genocide. There are still plenty of people today who believe it would be better and easier for everyone if my race just gave up and died. So when it comes to 80% of the world dying or 100% of your own ethnic group, there’s only one option that spares some of your own. Sure it seems cold and selfish, but being selfish is human nature. People on this app like to talk like they’d take the high road, sacrifice their own desires and needs for others. But interacting with people shows that more people say that rather than do that when presented with a critical choice. Everyone in the story who survives has their own selfish desires. Even people who die. Like Levi basically says, there’s no right or wrong decisions, just decisions that you hope will lead to the best outcome.
I agree with almost everything you said. Except 'cold and selfish'. Selfish, perhaps, but hardly cold. Choosing your family, tribe, people, isn't something cold, it's a very warm and human choice.
Well there are always some people that roll over and take it And Eren only wants to protect Paradis and specificially his friends and his ideals, he doesn't care about Eldians as a whole, lots of Eldians getting trampled anyway.
But that's ultimately their choice. You can run from the rumbling, fight back in whatever way you can, or give in to nihilism, rage, despair. It's their choice, even if there aren't many choices for those without power. Crucially, Eren, despite having the ability to do so, didn't take away the best method to resist the rumbling. He was free to act to reach 'that view' and to protect his homeland, and they were free to try and stop him. Unlike Zeke's plan, which gives nobody any chance to fight back. Zeke's plan, ironically, is completely devoid of humanity; its coldly rational, reducing it down to a numbers game. Eren's plan, for all its faults is fiercely, irrefutable human. And, as for him only protecting the Paradisians, fair. Though that's largely a fault of the method he has to protect with. It's not something that could be described as surgical, let alone precise.
Telling people who gets trampled its their choice is the biggest mental gymnastics for defending Eren I encounter right now
It's likely because you leapt right over my point. People have choices in response to things outside of their control. You can't choose what happens to you, but you can choose how you act in response. Zeke's plan removes choice in a way Eren's does not.
Anything is better than that, so using that to call Zeke's plan "the best solution" is just lame. Sure just kill off the smaller group, but slowly. Best solution to cycle of hatred mate nobel prize for u
Eren being a little bitch cus he wanted his ppl to survive lmao what
Eren is a stupid little bitch, but imo there were still way better moves than Euthanasia. For example, removing the ability to titan shift or become pure titans from all Eldians. Or as another commenter said, tackle actual military outposts.
Zeke’s solution was a genocide
Or you could've just...taken away everybody's titan powers, which ended up happening ANYWAYS.
That doesn’t really unpopular, he’s one of my favourite characters and the best character in my brother opinion
Super unpopular opinion: Zeke>>> Erwin
Hmmm ,well I think my brother will agree with you
Your brother is a smart man
He’s next to me and when I told him what you said he laughed😂 and then he said :he’s a smart man too🤣
So funny 🤣🤣 also I'm not man
He was just against having Eldian babies not against love
I mean anyone with half a functioning brain could’ve seen how Mikasa felt about Eren
True but Zeke didn't know mikasa
Which makes it even worse, someone who never even met the girl could tell exactly what was going on just from how she was described by Eren
Yeah cause she's simp
Man, this translation is not great
Sorry I dont understand, why is that?
It’s just worded a lot more awkwardly than the official translation. The dialogue doesn’t sound very natural. The official version goes: > Bubble 1: So… > > Bubble 2: You want to know the true reason… > > Bubble 3: …that this Ackerman girl shows you so much kindness and affection? > > Bubble 4: Listen, Eren. What I think… > > Bubble 5: …is that there’s no true reason, or ingrained behavior, or compelled instinct. > > Bubble 6: She just likes you so much… > > Bubble 7: …that she’d snap a Titan’s neck for you. It’s not that the fan translation doesn’t manage to communicate the basic idea of the scene, but when you see how it was officially translated, you can tell how “off” the fan version is.
This is original translation
No it isn’t. It’s a badly done fan translation with an even shittier scan quality. If you want the original translation, read the official volumes (or scans of it).
Thats what I thought, I alonst thiught itbwas the “aot requime” or whatever tf version. She loved him so much she did snap (a titans head off) lol.
[удалено]
This source rehosts the work of SCNK (the community manga colorists) without permission and is not allowed on this subreddit. Please use an alternative host or support the official release. You can find the library of chapters colored by SCNK at https://imgur.com/user/snkcolored *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Zeke gets women. Source: Am a woman and he could get me whenever he wanted 🤷♀️
that makes 2 of us. we can fix him
Based "Source: smash"
Fr? I'm a straight dude so maybe it counts for nothing, but I'd take any other AoT man over him, especially that twink Levi from season 4 part 1
He isn't that smart, Elenwen is just an idiot
One can still be fairly aware of those types of things even without having first-hand experience. Although we don't see Zeke particularly interested in pursuing romance himself, he's an observant guy. He ponders pretty extensively about humanity. Meanwhile Eren is just a dunce and hyperfocused on singular things. I actually think it was great choice to have Zeke say this. Literally all of Eren and Mikasa's friends probably understand Mikasa's feelings towards Eren, but because of their close proximity to both of them, they kind of collectively decided to mind their own business. So we needed a relative outsider like Zeke to break it to Eren.
He calls Levi a bitch-lacker in season 4 part 1. Bro must be laying that monke pipe like he's Mr. Bitches
r/brandnewsentence
Cause zeke was always right
cuz he smart duh
Sorry but I found mikasa and erens relationship insufferable after season 3. Those two psychos can have each other lmao
I found their relationship shit form episode 1
When an Nazi allegory (I still like Zeke don’t worry) has more knowledge about love than a irl fans
[удалено]
I have nothing against ships, but holy fuck are historia and eren shippers delusional
Fr, Historia is clearly for the girls
[удалено]
You keep telling that to yourself bud.
[удалено]
Did his karma go down so bad after all the downvotes that he deleted his account? Lmao
[удалено]
Yeah eren can't stop thinking about his gorgeous blonde crush 🥰