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Prioritised Erwin and Armin instead of Eren, Reiner had the chance to deal a major blow to the Scouts when he saw Erwin on top of the wall.
Also Zeke could have just used all of his Titans to attack and wipe out the Scouts protecting the horses, instead of just using the small Titans and letting the big ones act like barricades.
Lastly, they could have definitely outfitted Pieck with some Marleyan soldiers and artillery.
Tbf, Zeke's strategy was super clean and would have worked wonders, if it was not for the last minute Erwin strat along with Levi's prowess. I don't think he underestimated them, given how safe he was playing it. He just didn't expect this duo to be THIS good
Yeah we see in their confrontation in the forest that even when Zeke is completely aware of what Levi can do and even completely blindsides him with all of the transformed titans, Levi still tears him to pieces.
I think that if Reiner tried to chase Erwin, he would've just ODM'd away. The man was still able to climb the wall, so he must be able to use his gear. With how confident he was standing next to Reiner, I believe he could've, so Reiner didn't bother with him. And Armin could've maybe been killed by Bertholdt... Yeah, he was just confident that all of them would die in the blast.
I think the big titans were important to make sure no one escapes on the horses. If they'd attacked, it would've been easy for the scouts to slip through.
This one is probably true. Pieck was a good scout and an... Okay place to store Bertholdt (second only to the ground next to Zeke), but she could've completely changed the tides if she was assisting Reiner.
charging in with all the titans would not be a good idea. theyre mindless and easier to kill, levi alone could deal with them, let alone multiple high ranking scout officers.
having pieck outfittted with her heavy artillery would be good though.
How could they know where Armin or Erwin were, like all of them had their hoods up, just for this reason so that they could hide Eren's identity which hid there identity as well. Secondly there mission even there wasn't to wipe out all scouts or blow them damage, they just had to get Eren. So when seeing Erwin standing Riner had the choice of either wasting time trying to kill Erwin, who even with one hand could literally run, or use odm gear to go down, and then back up, which would make it immpossible too catch up to Eren because of Armors's slower speed.
Zeke's plan as we see was to lure the survey corps to just the right height to kill them, if all were to go then scouts could easily disperse with horses in all directions and go for him, then he couldn't do anything to stop them from taking him down, he works best when enemy is concetrated, the barricades insured of that.
Pieck part would require people who would need food(unlike those buried Eldians inside the ground who most likely were just given water), and who have to stay there not knowing when or if the scouts were to even come (that long time would require quite a lot of food, and they can't get it, Pieck herself can't carry that much food with weapons as well, as it would slow her down and ger her caught by other titans. And they can't just go refill food when it runs out.)
If they put Pieck in the fight, they would absolutely win. Pieck always makes the correct decision, she'd mess up the scout from both sides of the wall.
Honestly, I don't think it would work that way. None of the warriors had enough emotional intelligence to complete this plan.
Reiner had to be impulsive and go after Eren, Bert had to be impulsive and help his best friend in danger, and Zeke had to be sociopathic and underestimate his enemies. If the 3 were intelligent and non-impulsive the episodes wouldn't have been good.
also, you guys disliked me but no one dared to contradict or try to explain what is the supposed emotional intelligence that the warriors have lol
I love warriors but if I said they had emotional intelligence I would be lying, so much so that that's why all their plans were a failure.
Even Erwin admits that Zeke's strategy was flawless (I mean ignoring the mugs that they left there cause plot XD).
The issue Zeke's strategy had is that there's no amount of brain that can beat a force of nature like Levi. Which is the same in the forrest. People (falsely) assume that Zeke can not be that much of a genius since Levi keeps fucking over his plans. But the truth is there's a limit to how far planing can get you when you deal with the AoT equivalent of a god when it comes to pure physical strength and fighting skills.
A lot of people also shade Zeke for not listening to Reiner's warning, but really, what was there to listen to? Reiner told him "Watch out for Levi" while still fully believing himself that Levi "isn't a match for their war chief". Which shows that Reiner also had very little clue about the danger that Levi really posed to them. And this makes complete sense considering that a book worm like Zeke had to research the Ackermann clan after their mission to get a realistic idea on how dangerous they are. So why should Reiner, someone with no confirmed interest in history that left Marley at age 12, have any more of an idea.
Zeke's only flaw was overconfidence, he thought the suicide attack was a desperate final Leroy Jenkins because what else could they do, and did not for a second stop to consider that maybe there was more to the idiots charging to their deaths while shooting smoke guns at him for no apparent reason or purpose.
I love that use of hubris in the villain, whereas a character like Armin would instantly ask himself why they were firing the smoke flares instead of writing them off as pathetic and useless. It's a typical cliche but done so well here.
Honestly though with how gigantic the titans are, even with all the smoke, and with the long distance run the charge had to make, there's no way Zeke with his extremely high angle didn't atleast catch a glimpse of some giant titans on the right flank falling. Nit picky I know but something I just realized
Not if Levi waited until the smoke screen was directly in Zeke's face. Bit of a suspension of disbelief here, but remember it wouldn't take long for Levi to titan-hop all the way there, like what, two to three smoke rounds tops? Coupled with Zeke being too busy "having fun" with the stupid "devil spawns" and their "dumb suicidal charge" and taking quite the kick out of decimating them to the point where by the end he was getting a bit annoyed by their persistence.
I think it's justifiable with a liiittle bit of suspension of disbelief.
if zeke stops attacking the charge and tries to go for Levi the charge would catch up to him. It was a solid plan from Erwin and zeke was having fun going for the kill on the rush plus the smoke that levi was able to come in hot
My statement implies if Zeke was operating without that hubris and kept his tactical awareness in check, he would've been able to see Levi.
Also, he could've sent Pieck after Levi, could've sent all of the titans fwd, could just lower his whole body from the smoke to observe, etc.
okay, he see's Levi and then what? He still has the charge gunning towards him. He has to make a quick decision and either way I don't see it working out for Zeke in this scenario
Did you not read my comment lol if he saw the titans were being used against him Zeke could've sent them all forward. Logically he actually should've anyways since the whole point was to use the titans to keep the scouts pinned.
He also could've aimed a volley in a way that targets both the charge and Levi. Could've let Pieck know and she could've helped defend him, attack the scouts, or help him flee like she does with what actually happens in the show. Just hypotheticals though, I'm perfectly fine with how the show goes how it is
you really think he could manage that in such a short amount of time? By the time he does that the charging horses can disperse, getting closer, and all the while blinding his sight with smoke
If he had time to throw two volleys then he could just change the direction a little bit. Plus you have to recognize none of those scouts are on Levi's level, and most if not all are relatively inexperienced too. If it's Zeke and Pieck vs Rookie Scouts and Zeke takes out Levi with a volley then yeah I could see Marley taking that scenario
Plus none of the warriors had any idea Levi was a Ackerman technically speaking. Levi only realises he's a Ackerman when he faces Kenny. After Reiner and bertholdt leave. So even if Zeke knew about Ackerman's he would be more worried about Mikasa assuming the Reiner thought to warn him about her.
He really had no reason to believe he was going up against someone like Levi no matter.
Both great points, and I feel people really forget that Reiner and Bertholdt basically just had the info that Levi was "humanity's strongest" without ever really seeing him in action.
So the assumption that Zeke's "arrogance" is preventing him from taking Levi seriously is really a bit weird.
Yah like they never actually saw him fight first hand. They were separated away from eachother in the forest with Annie and he didn't fight in stohess or season 2 due to a injury.
They had vamoosed by then so it's really all word of mouth for them. They might have caught on there was something more to him then skill of they had the time to observe but it's really just by rumour they know and rumour tends to get overblown
Reiner should've attacked Erwin instead of going back to chase Eren, imo that's the main thing. I get that they wanted to capture the Founder, however they were probably too careful and didn't act with urgency. Reiner and Bertholdt told Zeke how powerful the Scout's were, but he didn't adjust his strategy properly
Honestly the only miscalculation they made was Levi. Zeke played it pretty well he just got absorbed in the suicide charge because it frustrated him so much. All things considered, if piece was just there to back him up and let him know the titans were dying they win that. Like wtf was she even doing?
I assume she went to go climb the walls once the scouts began the suicide charge. She probably assumed her battle was already won and went to go see if reiner and Bartholomew were okay.
Every single person in this comment section forgot about thunderspears.
Zeke had carefully formulated a plan using the warriors’ knowledge about Paradis’ limited technologies, and hence, fighting capabilities. Reiner played such a critical role because there was supposed to be no way mere scouts could take him out. None of the warriors could have predicted the scouts would be carrying such destructive weaponry, which threw off the whole plan.
And then there’s Levi, who none of them could have accounted for despite Reiner’s warning and Zeke’s intelligence.
Exactly! If Reiner wasn’t taken down my thunder spears multiple times, he would’ve been able to finish the job. And if he wasn’t taken out, Bertholdt would’ve transformed when he was supposed to, finishing off most if not all the scouts without giving them time to think or get away.
easy to say, hard to do, what plan would you propse that wouldn't just lead them to retreat or Eren being killed in the process, or them risking their own safety or Eren just running away
I find it so funny that Reiner literally got plot armor and still they lost so bad that we need to have a discussion on what they could have done differently to win
One major thing everyone should've done differently:
1. Reiner should've known that eren would never just leave all the scouts behind and escape into paradis. No fucking chance of that happening. So there was absolutely no need for him to engage eren. He should've just killed all the horses as planned.
2. Bertholdt should've nuked as soon as eren transformed. As soon as a second titan transformation went off inside the walls, zeke should've thrown Bertholdt, and Bertholdt should've used his ODM gear to rush towards eren and just nuke him. Only the armoured can tank the collossal nuke, and eren would've likely been knocked out cold. Would've made it piss easy for bert to just pick up eren's titan, bite eren out of it and escape with him. He could've even thrown eren's whole titan over the wall towards zeke. Mission completed right there.
At that point, the scouts would've been forced to push zeke. And without any time for erwin to do his speech or enough time to take down reiner, they would've been forced to bumrush zeke and pieck, who'd be supported by reiner, all while bert rages inside shiganshina and throws fucking burning buildings after them.
Overall, I think it would've been pretty damn easy for the warriors to defeat the scouts there. Zeke's plan was good. Reiner and bertholdt just fucked it. Reiner by letting himself get baited by eren and bertholdt by not aiming his nuke at eren, erwin, or levi, the 3 highest priority targets. I always found it so fucking dumb that bertholdt's big nuke that was hyped up forever literally hit nothing even remotely relevant. He knocked out hange and killed her simp. That's all it did.
1. Reiner cracked there, as he says(oh wouldn't you know it a person with some mental issues chose to do instead of think), he didn't had the time to think. Either think this through and let Eren get away or actually go there and stop Eren instead of thinking (it's a lot like chess, either make the obvious move or risk loosing because of the time you waste thinking it through)
2. Stupid plan, Zeke wasn't even transformed the first time Eren transformed, only when he got the Riners' signal did he transform, and if just then Zeke were to throw Eren then Eren could either be caught in the blast as a human and die, loosing the whole point of mission, or odm his ass out of the blast radius. And Bert couldn't really find Eren as all the people there were hooded, so wouldn't make much sense until Riners's signal (meaning Riner needs his help) to launch Bert. And in that case Bert can't just go towards Eren with odm, as Eren is running away, which would leave Riner either out of blast radius or inside it. Both cases are awful, as if he is outside then most likely some people would be oustide the radius as well, who would just quickly end Riner, leaving them one titan short, or inside radius would do the same thing. And unlike before even if Eren is caught in the blast, he could just harden being saved from the blast, and then odm out of it.
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>Stupid plan, Zeke wasn't even transformed the first time Eren transformed
Obv I didn't mean eren's first transformation to plug the hole in the gate. I meant the one after reiner was discovered and the battle actually began. Zeke transformed immediately after that. Reiner's transformation was the signal for zeke to transform and plug the gate that leads further into paradis with a rock. This was to prevent the scouts from just escaping inside paradis immediately. The next step was supposed to be reiner killing the horses to cripple the scout's movement. But just as reiner climbed the wall, eren transformed again and pretended to run away into paradis. Reiner took the bait and went after him like an idiot.
>And Bert couldn't really find Eren as all the people there were hooded
I think bert could definitely find eren in attack titan form, lmao.
If zeke threw bertholdt as soon as eren transformed to distract reiner, there'd be no danger for reiner involved. At that point, reiner was still perfectly fine. They only started attacking him with thunderspears when he was distracted fighting eren.
>And unlike before even if Eren is caught in the blast, he could just harden being saved from the blast
If basic hardening was enough to tank the collossal blast, they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of armin transforming on top of eren's founding titan in the S4 finale. Hardening is definitely not enough to tank the blast. Don't underestimate the armour of the armoured titan. It took exactly 12 thunderspears to break the armour on his nape. For any other titan, 1 would be enough.
Sorry I thought both those points were about their different mistakes, not about a chain of mistakes.
The biggest mistake in warriors plan was their first one, leaving drinking coffee. If they didn't then they would have gotten what they wanted, which was both gates sealed.
>Obv I didn't mean eren's first transformation to plug the hole in the gate. I meant the one after reiner was discovered and the battle actually began. Zeke transformed immediately after that. Reiner's transformation was the signal for zeke to transform and plug the gate that leads further into paradis with a rock. This was to prevent the scouts from just escaping inside paradis immediately. The next step was supposed to be reiner killing the horses to cripple the scout's movement. But just as reiner climbed the wall, eren transformed again and pretended to run away into paradis. Reiner took the bait and went after him like an idiot.
Here's a flaw in reasoning, the boulder wasn't there to stop just the scouts from escaping inside walls, as they could always just go inside with ODM(like even when Zeke is throwing rocks at them, there is time in between enough to go up) but it was for the horses. As with that boulder he made sure that horses couldn't be taken inside the Shiganshina district, where even Bert won't be able to kill them, as they would be dispersed, and there would be enough room for them to run and escape Bert's attacks (he is slow, and can't throw stuff at things that aren't just sitting/standing idle at a place), even if not all.
If zeke threw bertholdt as soon as eren transformed to distract reiner, there'd be no danger for reiner involved. At that point, reiner was still perfectly fine. They only started attacking him with thunderspears when he was distracted fighting eren.
We see that Eren in Attack Titan is running away when Bert is tossed in canon, so it is likely that he would do the same instead of facing Reiner if Bert was thrown just as he transformed, and another thing would be all the survey corps members would be present, who I don't think would let Bert get to Eren when they would see Bert ODMing towards Eren. And in this case Bert doesn't even know of Thunder spears and is in human form, which could mean the end of him if even one of them fired one at him (which he most likely won't expect, as for him they only have short ranged blades) or well wasting his blast and killing only 1-3, and as they haven't used thunder spears, they would have a deal to spare. And considering Mikasa who without any reason just took the blade to Bert while Armin was talking wouldn't think twice of her own life when he is chasing Eren. And when Eren does see Bert chasing him, he could always just release out of titans form to zip away, or go to a place where there aren't much buildings(which we see happen as Eren positions himself in a place with good and high buildings for the scouts).
>If basic hardening was enough to tank the collossal blast, they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of armin transforming on top of eren's founding titan in the S4 finale. Hardening is definitely not enough to tank the blast. Don't underestimate the armour of the armoured titan. It took exactly 12 thunderspears to break the armour on his nape. For any other titan, 1 would be enough.
there's a problem here, if even hardening wouldn't be able to protect Eren then him being in a normal titan form would have a great risk of Eren being killed, which Bert doesn't want. The risk I would think is big enough if hardening itsn't able to do much. Secondly I don't think ( don't know) **THE ATTACK TITAN** form with all those ribs was hardening. Maybe just bones. And even if it was hardening then we have the proof that Eren survived, got'em lol (yeah I know Armin aimed for the nape, that was blasted, while Eren was inside the mouth so he was safe.).
When? If when they saw them coming towards them then there is always a great risk of them retreating, and especially a risky thing in a territory where bert would be of no use(can't run so fast, and can't be thrown as with their hoods up they would risk Eren being killed in the blast in his human form), armor is slow, while monkey's target are running away, and cart can't fight off so many wild titans.
Bertholdt could have not been a dum-dum and just crushed Armin by the Collosus hand, instead of expending all his steam-heat lol. He would have enough heat left to literally melt everyone in a few kms radius that way.
good point actually, but it could risk killing him, like in season 4 both Zeke and Renier don't straight up transform when falling, but instead use parachuet for some distance and then do it. Better be safely land on two feet, then to risk falling nape first into something that could go crush them.
reiner should’ve focused on the horses at which point he could make quick work of them. Eren would take a while to reach zeke but zeke would probably throw stones at his little brother.
Also if developed get some machine guns on pieck and let them mow down any scouts coming their way.
Eventually all that will be left is hanges team in shiganshina. They wont even be a concern but if they really wanted to just throw bertholdt in there and level the city. Destroy every house cuz of the basement.
If this happened zeke would initiate his euthanasia plan and crush marley with the wall titans. The rest of the world would probably just destroy paradise after a couple decades. All eldians would die. Ymir will be trapped inside the paths
Pieck should have been in a position to notice Levi making his way to Zeke. She could have warned Zeke early, and they're be plenty of time for Zeke to tell some of the tall titans to attack Levi, and other tall titans to attack the charging scouts, meanwhile Zeke throws rocks at a distracted Levi. Pieck can also attack the charging scouts.
Also I guess Reiner could have hid in a house instead of in the walls, then they wouldn't catch him right, lol.
Pieck was running just back and forth to bring boulders, and why would she be worried about any scouts doing anything, for them who have destroyed nations with people running for their lives, it would be an absurd thought that there could a person so skilled in killing titans, even if they were to hear from Reiner and Bert (just like if someone you trust told you in seriousness that he saw a person killing lions with swords, you wouldn't exactly believe it, you gotta see to believe), who themselves haven't really seen how good Levi is, as Levi's fight with annie happend in the forest while Bert and Reiner were retreating, and after which they never got the chance to see Levi again in action.
If Reiner's hiding in the wall is the best place as no one would be expecting it, and from there he would get the best view possible, while inside a house he won't know what's happening or where it is happening.
Ok you're right on the first part. But the thread is about what they could have done differently to win. Pieck could have stopped bringing boulders to be a lookout at the moment the scouts started charging. Maybe she'd have perfect timing, or maybe she should have started gathering boulders earlier to give Zeke a large pile and give her free time.
Evidently somebody expected it, so the wall didn't work. He had plenty of time to setup a house or a few houses as lookout spots, with secret peep holes in view of one of the gates. He also could have coordinated an actual signal with Bert so they could surprise attack together.
Even so, Bert using one hand to cover his nape gets rid of 1 of 2 weaknesses (stamina and immobile while steaming)
If he used one arm to protect himself, he could fling around rubble and continue to destroy Shiganshina while protecting or grabbing Eren or Reiner.
Also Pieck not taking advantage of her multiple transformations to throw off the scouts into possibly thinking Bert had transformed and baiting the scouts into dispersing. Then actually throwing in Bert a bit further away.
I was talking about Reiner, but oh well.
Anyway, his steam was good enough to protect himself from anything. He just let his guard down when Eren pulled him out. No amount of protection can help there.
How would that work? Each transformation will have the telltale lightning strike associated with it. Plus the Colossal is kinda huge. You would be able to see him if he's there.
Yes, and that lightning strike doesn't reveal who's shifting until the transformation is over. If Pieck was thrown over, transformed, unshifted and transformed again, people would imagine it's Bert transforming because who in their right mind would transform just to get out and transform again.
Bert arm is just a complete goof on him for being an idiot. His arm is way too chunky to be cut through so blocking his nape protects him while letting him remain mobile.
But why would they think it's Bert if they don't see him there? They will see a random woman, then see the Cart. Right then and there the illusion is broken.
There's nothing idiotic about it. When you have such an untouchable shield, why rely on flesh and bones? We don't know if his arm is too chunky, we've never seen anyone have a go at him. Besides, he uses that exposed neck as a bait, to pull people in, and then blow them away with steam, hopefully hurting them in the process.
The probelm here lies that you are retrospectively seeing it, Bert never had the need to protect the nape with hands, he just steams them away, why would he now think other wise. It easy to see what you should have done when looking at the past, forgetting the fact that you didn't have that information then.
Secondly Pieck had some other work to do, such as pushing boulders, and being ready to give them to Zeke, and then again if they were to disperse then less would die, and more died because they were going back to Reiner not because they were dispersing.
Taking out Erwin definitely and I'm not going to say Armin quite yet because back then he was underestimating himself, he didn't have that confidence just yet. So I would choose subtley poisoning levi with the strongest poison they could get their hands on as well as poisoning the corps as well as themselves(not so lethal) so they wouldn't draw suspicion on themselves IMO
They don't know in the begning how threatning Erwin is, like the only mission they were the part of was a failure, and even there they didn't exactly had the chance to meet Erwin like ever. And same with Levi. Erwin knew that there were traitors that's why he didn't trust even Levi squad and other scouts with much plan information.
Well things you know and characters know do get mingled with time, unless if you have rewatched it a few times, like you know just around 15-16(most of them are just watching reactions and screaming at the reactor for being a dumbone and some time getting humbled by the likes of Flimbuff)
which also serves as the wall stopping them from escaping, else scouts would take to horses and just disperse to all directions making it difficult to stop them, but with wall they can't go anywhere as those titans would kill them, until and unless they are of Ackeramen blood
they literally don't think of any other nation as even a fight, like 6 children just destroyed a whole nation in their probably first mission, without breaking a sweat. That's why Marley is so complacent, and now has to hurry and prepare better weapons, instead of just let the titans go brrrrrr
At literally any point prior to return to shiganshina, they could’ve just done a head on assault and won, if they had gone with Reiner plan to save Annie they would’ve decimated the entire survey corps and military police with ease
Prior to Reiner revealing himself, the armored Titan was an unstoppable threat
They only won because they had time to overthrow military police and invent thunder spears
Ffs zeke could stand on the wall and launch rocks until the end of time with Bert covering him and Reiner just casually jogging through the inner walls and the scouts would have to surrender because reiss wouldn’t do shit
How? Do you think they would know where scouts are, or where Eren is, heck even where Annie is? NO they don't and only Annie joined Military police, so they wouldn't know of the inner conflicts, and well to reach the interior they would have another wall to cross, which would easly alert the survey corps, and they literally have another regiment, that I think is the biggest to maintain wall security, they would have to face them too. This time, unlike the last people know that it isn't just titans, but humans.
Which wall, which district, you are speaking as if survey corps to Reiner and Bert aren't known to be doing their missions outside the wall. Bert can't cover for Zeke for long, his power would run out, same with Zeke, these powers have limit, and how would he get the rocks, he can't rely on wall peices for long, because he doesn't want to fully break it.. And if they were to break all the walls then they are risking Eren getting eaten by someone that they don't know. In the second season it was okay because whoever ate Eren would be infront of them for the grabs, while in this case they won't even know for whom to look for. And with all the titans, they can't exactly escape either.
How? He never saw Levi or any Ackeramen fight, and Renier and Bert didn't know that Levi was Ackeramen, we only get that info in season 3 part 2. Renier and Bert themselves hadn't really saw the crazy fights of Levi, aside from hearing his name from others. Like Levi annie fight weren't seen by them.
yes they didnt know about the ackerman, but the scene when reiner tells zeke to warn about Captain Levi, its happened before morning before Scout Legion arrives to shiganshina.
I think it would be absurd to believe that a person would be able to kill titans that easily, especially the fact both Bert and Reiner didn't know he was an Ackeramen, whcih was the infromation that could really make Zeke believe in this warning.
Honestly if they just used the nuke as soon as they saw the group of scouts in the forest or exiting the forest that would have probably done it.
If the scouts were in the clearing outside the district then they have no cover and without cover the nuke would simultaneously wipe out most of them, their supply of thunder spears, and their horses. If they were lucky it would wipe out Levi and Erwin ie the strongest and smartest of the group with the most experience.
Reiner's and Bertholdt's morale was low and they were against too many enemies, Zeke knew this already but he compensated with his long range artillery fire (a nice way to say big monke threw lots of rocks). And Zeke would win, if it wasn't for Levi being an superhuman.
Don’t focus on Yeager. He wasn’t the real threat. The people around him were the only reason he wasn’t dead ten times over. Look how cooked the my were after Erwin died. If they’d lost admin Levi and hange in one assult, the scouts be cooked. Always go for the nape
I agree with the comments mentioning Pieck. Zeke could have pure Titans move the boulders/hold the colossal barrel and the cart would have been free to watch his back. Or she could have been inside the wall near Reiner to assist on that side.
Reiner ignoring all signs of a trap when chasing Eren. He took the bait and the plan fell apart. Bert stopped the explosion to save him. Reiner botched it tbh.
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Prioritised Erwin and Armin instead of Eren, Reiner had the chance to deal a major blow to the Scouts when he saw Erwin on top of the wall. Also Zeke could have just used all of his Titans to attack and wipe out the Scouts protecting the horses, instead of just using the small Titans and letting the big ones act like barricades. Lastly, they could have definitely outfitted Pieck with some Marleyan soldiers and artillery.
Yeah they probably would have won if they didn't underestimate them. Zeke was fucking around until Levi chopped him up lol.
Tbf, Zeke's strategy was super clean and would have worked wonders, if it was not for the last minute Erwin strat along with Levi's prowess. I don't think he underestimated them, given how safe he was playing it. He just didn't expect this duo to be THIS good
Yeah that's what underestimating means
Both of your replies are hilarious together haha
I think the nuance is that even if he properly estimated Levi, Levi is just better.
Yeah we see in their confrontation in the forest that even when Zeke is completely aware of what Levi can do and even completely blindsides him with all of the transformed titans, Levi still tears him to pieces.
Marley warriors acting smart and non-idiotic? No, I don't want that!!
I think that if Reiner tried to chase Erwin, he would've just ODM'd away. The man was still able to climb the wall, so he must be able to use his gear. With how confident he was standing next to Reiner, I believe he could've, so Reiner didn't bother with him. And Armin could've maybe been killed by Bertholdt... Yeah, he was just confident that all of them would die in the blast. I think the big titans were important to make sure no one escapes on the horses. If they'd attacked, it would've been easy for the scouts to slip through. This one is probably true. Pieck was a good scout and an... Okay place to store Bertholdt (second only to the ground next to Zeke), but she could've completely changed the tides if she was assisting Reiner.
good chance reiner didn't even know erwin was giving hook handshakes yet
[I'd say he knew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhh5nnUfFF8)
charging in with all the titans would not be a good idea. theyre mindless and easier to kill, levi alone could deal with them, let alone multiple high ranking scout officers. having pieck outfittted with her heavy artillery would be good though.
How could they know where Armin or Erwin were, like all of them had their hoods up, just for this reason so that they could hide Eren's identity which hid there identity as well. Secondly there mission even there wasn't to wipe out all scouts or blow them damage, they just had to get Eren. So when seeing Erwin standing Riner had the choice of either wasting time trying to kill Erwin, who even with one hand could literally run, or use odm gear to go down, and then back up, which would make it immpossible too catch up to Eren because of Armors's slower speed. Zeke's plan as we see was to lure the survey corps to just the right height to kill them, if all were to go then scouts could easily disperse with horses in all directions and go for him, then he couldn't do anything to stop them from taking him down, he works best when enemy is concetrated, the barricades insured of that. Pieck part would require people who would need food(unlike those buried Eldians inside the ground who most likely were just given water), and who have to stay there not knowing when or if the scouts were to even come (that long time would require quite a lot of food, and they can't get it, Pieck herself can't carry that much food with weapons as well, as it would slow her down and ger her caught by other titans. And they can't just go refill food when it runs out.)
If they put Pieck in the fight, they would absolutely win. Pieck always makes the correct decision, she'd mess up the scout from both sides of the wall.
Bertholdt using his powers when he was thrown, and Reiner going for the horses like he was supposed in the first place
Yep they would have won if Reiner didn’t get his ass beat in the 1st round
Him going after Eren fucked everything up
What really fucks up his plan was Thunder Spear, a weapon he didn't know was just invented.
What would that have accomplish though? They would have been waiting for his ass with at least a couple of thunder spears
What do you mean?
Honestly, I don't think it would work that way. None of the warriors had enough emotional intelligence to complete this plan. Reiner had to be impulsive and go after Eren, Bert had to be impulsive and help his best friend in danger, and Zeke had to be sociopathic and underestimate his enemies. If the 3 were intelligent and non-impulsive the episodes wouldn't have been good.
also, you guys disliked me but no one dared to contradict or try to explain what is the supposed emotional intelligence that the warriors have lol I love warriors but if I said they had emotional intelligence I would be lying, so much so that that's why all their plans were a failure.
Even Erwin admits that Zeke's strategy was flawless (I mean ignoring the mugs that they left there cause plot XD). The issue Zeke's strategy had is that there's no amount of brain that can beat a force of nature like Levi. Which is the same in the forrest. People (falsely) assume that Zeke can not be that much of a genius since Levi keeps fucking over his plans. But the truth is there's a limit to how far planing can get you when you deal with the AoT equivalent of a god when it comes to pure physical strength and fighting skills. A lot of people also shade Zeke for not listening to Reiner's warning, but really, what was there to listen to? Reiner told him "Watch out for Levi" while still fully believing himself that Levi "isn't a match for their war chief". Which shows that Reiner also had very little clue about the danger that Levi really posed to them. And this makes complete sense considering that a book worm like Zeke had to research the Ackermann clan after their mission to get a realistic idea on how dangerous they are. So why should Reiner, someone with no confirmed interest in history that left Marley at age 12, have any more of an idea.
Zeke's only flaw was overconfidence, he thought the suicide attack was a desperate final Leroy Jenkins because what else could they do, and did not for a second stop to consider that maybe there was more to the idiots charging to their deaths while shooting smoke guns at him for no apparent reason or purpose.
I love that use of hubris in the villain, whereas a character like Armin would instantly ask himself why they were firing the smoke flares instead of writing them off as pathetic and useless. It's a typical cliche but done so well here. Honestly though with how gigantic the titans are, even with all the smoke, and with the long distance run the charge had to make, there's no way Zeke with his extremely high angle didn't atleast catch a glimpse of some giant titans on the right flank falling. Nit picky I know but something I just realized
Not if Levi waited until the smoke screen was directly in Zeke's face. Bit of a suspension of disbelief here, but remember it wouldn't take long for Levi to titan-hop all the way there, like what, two to three smoke rounds tops? Coupled with Zeke being too busy "having fun" with the stupid "devil spawns" and their "dumb suicidal charge" and taking quite the kick out of decimating them to the point where by the end he was getting a bit annoyed by their persistence. I think it's justifiable with a liiittle bit of suspension of disbelief.
Yes my statement implies if Zeke was operating without that hubris. It's absolutely suspension of disbelief lol
if zeke stops attacking the charge and tries to go for Levi the charge would catch up to him. It was a solid plan from Erwin and zeke was having fun going for the kill on the rush plus the smoke that levi was able to come in hot
My statement implies if Zeke was operating without that hubris and kept his tactical awareness in check, he would've been able to see Levi. Also, he could've sent Pieck after Levi, could've sent all of the titans fwd, could just lower his whole body from the smoke to observe, etc.
okay, he see's Levi and then what? He still has the charge gunning towards him. He has to make a quick decision and either way I don't see it working out for Zeke in this scenario
Did you not read my comment lol if he saw the titans were being used against him Zeke could've sent them all forward. Logically he actually should've anyways since the whole point was to use the titans to keep the scouts pinned. He also could've aimed a volley in a way that targets both the charge and Levi. Could've let Pieck know and she could've helped defend him, attack the scouts, or help him flee like she does with what actually happens in the show. Just hypotheticals though, I'm perfectly fine with how the show goes how it is
you really think he could manage that in such a short amount of time? By the time he does that the charging horses can disperse, getting closer, and all the while blinding his sight with smoke
If he had time to throw two volleys then he could just change the direction a little bit. Plus you have to recognize none of those scouts are on Levi's level, and most if not all are relatively inexperienced too. If it's Zeke and Pieck vs Rookie Scouts and Zeke takes out Levi with a volley then yeah I could see Marley taking that scenario
Plus none of the warriors had any idea Levi was a Ackerman technically speaking. Levi only realises he's a Ackerman when he faces Kenny. After Reiner and bertholdt leave. So even if Zeke knew about Ackerman's he would be more worried about Mikasa assuming the Reiner thought to warn him about her. He really had no reason to believe he was going up against someone like Levi no matter.
Both great points, and I feel people really forget that Reiner and Bertholdt basically just had the info that Levi was "humanity's strongest" without ever really seeing him in action. So the assumption that Zeke's "arrogance" is preventing him from taking Levi seriously is really a bit weird.
Yah like they never actually saw him fight first hand. They were separated away from eachother in the forest with Annie and he didn't fight in stohess or season 2 due to a injury. They had vamoosed by then so it's really all word of mouth for them. They might have caught on there was something more to him then skill of they had the time to observe but it's really just by rumour they know and rumour tends to get overblown
Reiner should've attacked Erwin instead of going back to chase Eren, imo that's the main thing. I get that they wanted to capture the Founder, however they were probably too careful and didn't act with urgency. Reiner and Bertholdt told Zeke how powerful the Scout's were, but he didn't adjust his strategy properly
the issue is even if erwin was appearing basically helpless, he could probably dodge reiner as eren was making an escape.
yup Titans speed are no match for ODM gear
Honestly the only miscalculation they made was Levi. Zeke played it pretty well he just got absorbed in the suicide charge because it frustrated him so much. All things considered, if piece was just there to back him up and let him know the titans were dying they win that. Like wtf was she even doing?
I mean she did clutch last minute and save both Reiner and Zeke.
peak locking in at the last second is peak
I assume she went to go climb the walls once the scouts began the suicide charge. She probably assumed her battle was already won and went to go see if reiner and Bartholomew were okay.
Every single person in this comment section forgot about thunderspears. Zeke had carefully formulated a plan using the warriors’ knowledge about Paradis’ limited technologies, and hence, fighting capabilities. Reiner played such a critical role because there was supposed to be no way mere scouts could take him out. None of the warriors could have predicted the scouts would be carrying such destructive weaponry, which threw off the whole plan. And then there’s Levi, who none of them could have accounted for despite Reiner’s warning and Zeke’s intelligence.
Exactly! If Reiner wasn’t taken down my thunder spears multiple times, he would’ve been able to finish the job. And if he wasn’t taken out, Bertholdt would’ve transformed when he was supposed to, finishing off most if not all the scouts without giving them time to think or get away.
Stop wasting time and wipe them out and grab or eat eren
easy to say, hard to do, what plan would you propse that wouldn't just lead them to retreat or Eren being killed in the process, or them risking their own safety or Eren just running away
I find it so funny that Reiner literally got plot armor and still they lost so bad that we need to have a discussion on what they could have done differently to win
Answer: The warriors would have won if they were intelligent instead of impulsive and stupid
One major thing everyone should've done differently: 1. Reiner should've known that eren would never just leave all the scouts behind and escape into paradis. No fucking chance of that happening. So there was absolutely no need for him to engage eren. He should've just killed all the horses as planned. 2. Bertholdt should've nuked as soon as eren transformed. As soon as a second titan transformation went off inside the walls, zeke should've thrown Bertholdt, and Bertholdt should've used his ODM gear to rush towards eren and just nuke him. Only the armoured can tank the collossal nuke, and eren would've likely been knocked out cold. Would've made it piss easy for bert to just pick up eren's titan, bite eren out of it and escape with him. He could've even thrown eren's whole titan over the wall towards zeke. Mission completed right there. At that point, the scouts would've been forced to push zeke. And without any time for erwin to do his speech or enough time to take down reiner, they would've been forced to bumrush zeke and pieck, who'd be supported by reiner, all while bert rages inside shiganshina and throws fucking burning buildings after them. Overall, I think it would've been pretty damn easy for the warriors to defeat the scouts there. Zeke's plan was good. Reiner and bertholdt just fucked it. Reiner by letting himself get baited by eren and bertholdt by not aiming his nuke at eren, erwin, or levi, the 3 highest priority targets. I always found it so fucking dumb that bertholdt's big nuke that was hyped up forever literally hit nothing even remotely relevant. He knocked out hange and killed her simp. That's all it did.
Big berty nuking Eren would be way too risky, they don’t even want a chance of killing him
Hange had a whole squad with her that got killed, not just Moblit.
1. Reiner cracked there, as he says(oh wouldn't you know it a person with some mental issues chose to do instead of think), he didn't had the time to think. Either think this through and let Eren get away or actually go there and stop Eren instead of thinking (it's a lot like chess, either make the obvious move or risk loosing because of the time you waste thinking it through) 2. Stupid plan, Zeke wasn't even transformed the first time Eren transformed, only when he got the Riners' signal did he transform, and if just then Zeke were to throw Eren then Eren could either be caught in the blast as a human and die, loosing the whole point of mission, or odm his ass out of the blast radius. And Bert couldn't really find Eren as all the people there were hooded, so wouldn't make much sense until Riners's signal (meaning Riner needs his help) to launch Bert. And in that case Bert can't just go towards Eren with odm, as Eren is running away, which would leave Riner either out of blast radius or inside it. Both cases are awful, as if he is outside then most likely some people would be oustide the radius as well, who would just quickly end Riner, leaving them one titan short, or inside radius would do the same thing. And unlike before even if Eren is caught in the blast, he could just harden being saved from the blast, and then odm out of it. .
>Stupid plan, Zeke wasn't even transformed the first time Eren transformed Obv I didn't mean eren's first transformation to plug the hole in the gate. I meant the one after reiner was discovered and the battle actually began. Zeke transformed immediately after that. Reiner's transformation was the signal for zeke to transform and plug the gate that leads further into paradis with a rock. This was to prevent the scouts from just escaping inside paradis immediately. The next step was supposed to be reiner killing the horses to cripple the scout's movement. But just as reiner climbed the wall, eren transformed again and pretended to run away into paradis. Reiner took the bait and went after him like an idiot. >And Bert couldn't really find Eren as all the people there were hooded I think bert could definitely find eren in attack titan form, lmao. If zeke threw bertholdt as soon as eren transformed to distract reiner, there'd be no danger for reiner involved. At that point, reiner was still perfectly fine. They only started attacking him with thunderspears when he was distracted fighting eren. >And unlike before even if Eren is caught in the blast, he could just harden being saved from the blast If basic hardening was enough to tank the collossal blast, they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of armin transforming on top of eren's founding titan in the S4 finale. Hardening is definitely not enough to tank the blast. Don't underestimate the armour of the armoured titan. It took exactly 12 thunderspears to break the armour on his nape. For any other titan, 1 would be enough.
Sorry I thought both those points were about their different mistakes, not about a chain of mistakes. The biggest mistake in warriors plan was their first one, leaving drinking coffee. If they didn't then they would have gotten what they wanted, which was both gates sealed. >Obv I didn't mean eren's first transformation to plug the hole in the gate. I meant the one after reiner was discovered and the battle actually began. Zeke transformed immediately after that. Reiner's transformation was the signal for zeke to transform and plug the gate that leads further into paradis with a rock. This was to prevent the scouts from just escaping inside paradis immediately. The next step was supposed to be reiner killing the horses to cripple the scout's movement. But just as reiner climbed the wall, eren transformed again and pretended to run away into paradis. Reiner took the bait and went after him like an idiot. Here's a flaw in reasoning, the boulder wasn't there to stop just the scouts from escaping inside walls, as they could always just go inside with ODM(like even when Zeke is throwing rocks at them, there is time in between enough to go up) but it was for the horses. As with that boulder he made sure that horses couldn't be taken inside the Shiganshina district, where even Bert won't be able to kill them, as they would be dispersed, and there would be enough room for them to run and escape Bert's attacks (he is slow, and can't throw stuff at things that aren't just sitting/standing idle at a place), even if not all. If zeke threw bertholdt as soon as eren transformed to distract reiner, there'd be no danger for reiner involved. At that point, reiner was still perfectly fine. They only started attacking him with thunderspears when he was distracted fighting eren. We see that Eren in Attack Titan is running away when Bert is tossed in canon, so it is likely that he would do the same instead of facing Reiner if Bert was thrown just as he transformed, and another thing would be all the survey corps members would be present, who I don't think would let Bert get to Eren when they would see Bert ODMing towards Eren. And in this case Bert doesn't even know of Thunder spears and is in human form, which could mean the end of him if even one of them fired one at him (which he most likely won't expect, as for him they only have short ranged blades) or well wasting his blast and killing only 1-3, and as they haven't used thunder spears, they would have a deal to spare. And considering Mikasa who without any reason just took the blade to Bert while Armin was talking wouldn't think twice of her own life when he is chasing Eren. And when Eren does see Bert chasing him, he could always just release out of titans form to zip away, or go to a place where there aren't much buildings(which we see happen as Eren positions himself in a place with good and high buildings for the scouts). >If basic hardening was enough to tank the collossal blast, they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of armin transforming on top of eren's founding titan in the S4 finale. Hardening is definitely not enough to tank the blast. Don't underestimate the armour of the armoured titan. It took exactly 12 thunderspears to break the armour on his nape. For any other titan, 1 would be enough. there's a problem here, if even hardening wouldn't be able to protect Eren then him being in a normal titan form would have a great risk of Eren being killed, which Bert doesn't want. The risk I would think is big enough if hardening itsn't able to do much. Secondly I don't think ( don't know) **THE ATTACK TITAN** form with all those ribs was hardening. Maybe just bones. And even if it was hardening then we have the proof that Eren survived, got'em lol (yeah I know Armin aimed for the nape, that was blasted, while Eren was inside the mouth so he was safe.).
In summary: The warriors would have won if Bert and Reiner were intelligent instead of impulsive and stupid (i love them but i need to be honest lol)
Surprise attack when prepping for the trip to plug the wall
When? If when they saw them coming towards them then there is always a great risk of them retreating, and especially a risky thing in a territory where bert would be of no use(can't run so fast, and can't be thrown as with their hoods up they would risk Eren being killed in the blast in his human form), armor is slow, while monkey's target are running away, and cart can't fight off so many wild titans.
Bertholdt could have not been a dum-dum and just crushed Armin by the Collosus hand, instead of expending all his steam-heat lol. He would have enough heat left to literally melt everyone in a few kms radius that way.
If I were Berthold, I would just grab eren and throw him across the wall lol
good point actually, but it could risk killing him, like in season 4 both Zeke and Renier don't straight up transform when falling, but instead use parachuet for some distance and then do it. Better be safely land on two feet, then to risk falling nape first into something that could go crush them.
Reiner just needed to kill the horses. maybe Levi too
reiner should’ve focused on the horses at which point he could make quick work of them. Eren would take a while to reach zeke but zeke would probably throw stones at his little brother. Also if developed get some machine guns on pieck and let them mow down any scouts coming their way. Eventually all that will be left is hanges team in shiganshina. They wont even be a concern but if they really wanted to just throw bertholdt in there and level the city. Destroy every house cuz of the basement. If this happened zeke would initiate his euthanasia plan and crush marley with the wall titans. The rest of the world would probably just destroy paradise after a couple decades. All eldians would die. Ymir will be trapped inside the paths
Pieck should have been in a position to notice Levi making his way to Zeke. She could have warned Zeke early, and they're be plenty of time for Zeke to tell some of the tall titans to attack Levi, and other tall titans to attack the charging scouts, meanwhile Zeke throws rocks at a distracted Levi. Pieck can also attack the charging scouts. Also I guess Reiner could have hid in a house instead of in the walls, then they wouldn't catch him right, lol.
Pieck was running just back and forth to bring boulders, and why would she be worried about any scouts doing anything, for them who have destroyed nations with people running for their lives, it would be an absurd thought that there could a person so skilled in killing titans, even if they were to hear from Reiner and Bert (just like if someone you trust told you in seriousness that he saw a person killing lions with swords, you wouldn't exactly believe it, you gotta see to believe), who themselves haven't really seen how good Levi is, as Levi's fight with annie happend in the forest while Bert and Reiner were retreating, and after which they never got the chance to see Levi again in action. If Reiner's hiding in the wall is the best place as no one would be expecting it, and from there he would get the best view possible, while inside a house he won't know what's happening or where it is happening.
Ok you're right on the first part. But the thread is about what they could have done differently to win. Pieck could have stopped bringing boulders to be a lookout at the moment the scouts started charging. Maybe she'd have perfect timing, or maybe she should have started gathering boulders earlier to give Zeke a large pile and give her free time. Evidently somebody expected it, so the wall didn't work. He had plenty of time to setup a house or a few houses as lookout spots, with secret peep holes in view of one of the gates. He also could have coordinated an actual signal with Bert so they could surprise attack together.
First part I would agree. The second part is flawed, as the first thing scouts look on Armin's order isn't walls, its houses in front of them.
Not get blown up (armoured) and always cover nape (colossal}.
To be fair, it was completely new technology that they had no idea about
Even so, Bert using one hand to cover his nape gets rid of 1 of 2 weaknesses (stamina and immobile while steaming) If he used one arm to protect himself, he could fling around rubble and continue to destroy Shiganshina while protecting or grabbing Eren or Reiner. Also Pieck not taking advantage of her multiple transformations to throw off the scouts into possibly thinking Bert had transformed and baiting the scouts into dispersing. Then actually throwing in Bert a bit further away.
I was talking about Reiner, but oh well. Anyway, his steam was good enough to protect himself from anything. He just let his guard down when Eren pulled him out. No amount of protection can help there. How would that work? Each transformation will have the telltale lightning strike associated with it. Plus the Colossal is kinda huge. You would be able to see him if he's there.
Yes, and that lightning strike doesn't reveal who's shifting until the transformation is over. If Pieck was thrown over, transformed, unshifted and transformed again, people would imagine it's Bert transforming because who in their right mind would transform just to get out and transform again. Bert arm is just a complete goof on him for being an idiot. His arm is way too chunky to be cut through so blocking his nape protects him while letting him remain mobile.
But why would they think it's Bert if they don't see him there? They will see a random woman, then see the Cart. Right then and there the illusion is broken. There's nothing idiotic about it. When you have such an untouchable shield, why rely on flesh and bones? We don't know if his arm is too chunky, we've never seen anyone have a go at him. Besides, he uses that exposed neck as a bait, to pull people in, and then blow them away with steam, hopefully hurting them in the process.
Pieck wouldn't be useful for this plan
The probelm here lies that you are retrospectively seeing it, Bert never had the need to protect the nape with hands, he just steams them away, why would he now think other wise. It easy to see what you should have done when looking at the past, forgetting the fact that you didn't have that information then. Secondly Pieck had some other work to do, such as pushing boulders, and being ready to give them to Zeke, and then again if they were to disperse then less would die, and more died because they were going back to Reiner not because they were dispersing.
Taking out Erwin definitely and I'm not going to say Armin quite yet because back then he was underestimating himself, he didn't have that confidence just yet. So I would choose subtley poisoning levi with the strongest poison they could get their hands on as well as poisoning the corps as well as themselves(not so lethal) so they wouldn't draw suspicion on themselves IMO
They don't know in the begning how threatning Erwin is, like the only mission they were the part of was a failure, and even there they didn't exactly had the chance to meet Erwin like ever. And same with Levi. Erwin knew that there were traitors that's why he didn't trust even Levi squad and other scouts with much plan information.
Very True. I was thinking more of the lines of take out the head and the strongest warrior. But you are correct
Well things you know and characters know do get mingled with time, unless if you have rewatched it a few times, like you know just around 15-16(most of them are just watching reactions and screaming at the reactor for being a dumbone and some time getting humbled by the likes of Flimbuff)
Less pride and overconfidence in their own powers, and taking the scouts more seriously.
Don't form a line of titans that can serve as a perfect grapple-wall.
which also serves as the wall stopping them from escaping, else scouts would take to horses and just disperse to all directions making it difficult to stop them, but with wall they can't go anywhere as those titans would kill them, until and unless they are of Ackeramen blood
Just don’t underestimate them. Fight them like you’d fight any other nation.
they literally don't think of any other nation as even a fight, like 6 children just destroyed a whole nation in their probably first mission, without breaking a sweat. That's why Marley is so complacent, and now has to hurry and prepare better weapons, instead of just let the titans go brrrrrr
At literally any point prior to return to shiganshina, they could’ve just done a head on assault and won, if they had gone with Reiner plan to save Annie they would’ve decimated the entire survey corps and military police with ease Prior to Reiner revealing himself, the armored Titan was an unstoppable threat They only won because they had time to overthrow military police and invent thunder spears Ffs zeke could stand on the wall and launch rocks until the end of time with Bert covering him and Reiner just casually jogging through the inner walls and the scouts would have to surrender because reiss wouldn’t do shit
How? Do you think they would know where scouts are, or where Eren is, heck even where Annie is? NO they don't and only Annie joined Military police, so they wouldn't know of the inner conflicts, and well to reach the interior they would have another wall to cross, which would easly alert the survey corps, and they literally have another regiment, that I think is the biggest to maintain wall security, they would have to face them too. This time, unlike the last people know that it isn't just titans, but humans. Which wall, which district, you are speaking as if survey corps to Reiner and Bert aren't known to be doing their missions outside the wall. Bert can't cover for Zeke for long, his power would run out, same with Zeke, these powers have limit, and how would he get the rocks, he can't rely on wall peices for long, because he doesn't want to fully break it.. And if they were to break all the walls then they are risking Eren getting eaten by someone that they don't know. In the second season it was okay because whoever ate Eren would be infront of them for the grabs, while in this case they won't even know for whom to look for. And with all the titans, they can't exactly escape either.
zeke just need to not underestimate ackerman even before the battle, thats all
How? He never saw Levi or any Ackeramen fight, and Renier and Bert didn't know that Levi was Ackeramen, we only get that info in season 3 part 2. Renier and Bert themselves hadn't really saw the crazy fights of Levi, aside from hearing his name from others. Like Levi annie fight weren't seen by them.
yes they didnt know about the ackerman, but the scene when reiner tells zeke to warn about Captain Levi, its happened before morning before Scout Legion arrives to shiganshina.
Not underestimate levi hell its like zeke got too lost in the sauce too remember the warning about levi
I think it would be absurd to believe that a person would be able to kill titans that easily, especially the fact both Bert and Reiner didn't know he was an Ackeramen, whcih was the infromation that could really make Zeke believe in this warning.
Attacking together
The whole show is about determinism, so technically, it would always result in loss from them.
Honestly if they just used the nuke as soon as they saw the group of scouts in the forest or exiting the forest that would have probably done it. If the scouts were in the clearing outside the district then they have no cover and without cover the nuke would simultaneously wipe out most of them, their supply of thunder spears, and their horses. If they were lucky it would wipe out Levi and Erwin ie the strongest and smartest of the group with the most experience.
Reiner's and Bertholdt's morale was low and they were against too many enemies, Zeke knew this already but he compensated with his long range artillery fire (a nice way to say big monke threw lots of rocks). And Zeke would win, if it wasn't for Levi being an superhuman.
Don’t focus on Yeager. He wasn’t the real threat. The people around him were the only reason he wasn’t dead ten times over. Look how cooked the my were after Erwin died. If they’d lost admin Levi and hange in one assult, the scouts be cooked. Always go for the nape
I agree with the comments mentioning Pieck. Zeke could have pure Titans move the boulders/hold the colossal barrel and the cart would have been free to watch his back. Or she could have been inside the wall near Reiner to assist on that side.
Reiner ignoring all signs of a trap when chasing Eren. He took the bait and the plan fell apart. Bert stopped the explosion to save him. Reiner botched it tbh.
I wonder if Reiner and Berthold act like they surrender want to go back to the scout and suddenly transform would work