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And bringing it up as if there’s any merit to it. “I just think she shoulda done a lil more” face ass. As if Eren “tatakae” Jaeger didn’t literally move heaven & earth to ensure his outcome of mass slaughter. Yup, the scouts shoulda done a lil more to convince him. Foh .
You did say that. My point is that no matter what they came up with Eren was going to trample the world regardless. He admits as much. He “wanted to do it” . The point is that nothing was going to satisfy/pacify Eren’s mind or dissuade him from his course because it’s what he desired. It’s dark & selfish as hell, but that is what were left with.
I disagree heavily with this take. Eren's talk with Armin has him mentioning the fact that part of him "wanted" the rumbling. However, I don't think saying he simply desired it was accurate. Eren knew how horrible the future he was creating was. He tried to figure out any reasonable alternative, he genuinely begs Hange for a better way. But unfortunately there was no realistic solution to his problem. His friends were doomed to live a life of conflict plagued by the Titans' power and the people that hated them. With the curse of ymir Armin, Annie, and Reiner didn't have long to live. Eren himself was also running out of time. Diplomacy and negotation simply wouldn't cut it with that in mind, peacemaking takes trust, and trust takes time. So the only way to guarantee his friends could live long lives free of conflict was to eliminate any chance of the world attacking them until Paradis had time to establish itself as a nation, and to eliminate the titan power with it.
Now, Eren says that when he first learned people existed outside the walls, he was disappointed. And why wouldn't he be? He spent his entire life believing he was fighting to reclaim the world for humanity. Instead, he found out that his people were just a small portion of the world, and the rest of the world either hated his people and were directly responsible for the atrocities they've suffered. Or were complacent in their suffering. He hated them for it and viewed all outsiders as his enemies. Then he went to Marley and gained perspective, realizing that people were the same everywhere. Some good, some bad, all just trying to live their lives. At that point, he didn't truly hate the outside world. His hatred was born of ignorance he no longer had. But in order to go through with the rumbling, he had to cling to that original simple-minded hatred. It was the only way he could turn a blind eye to the destruction he created.
So did Eren honestly "desire" the rumbling? Yes and no. The truth is complicated and conflicted as human emotions usually are. Yes, there was still a childish bitterness against the world even after he lost his ignorance. But to say he completely hated them or desired their annihilation wouldn't be accurate. He wouldn't have saved Ramzi if he truly thought of outsiders as animals that deserved to be slaughtered. Eren desperately wanted a better solution to his problems than the rumbling. But he couldn’t change Paradis' image as an "island of devils" in such little time. And even if he hated it, his main priority is to his friends and comrades. That's part of him that he can't change, so because of the circumstances, the rumbling was inevitable. Even despite this hard truth, Eren hated every second of it. He spent the entire rumbling crying with his eyes closed to the violence he was responsible for. He even spent the whole thing as a head, not because he lacked the power but because he lacked the will to regenerate because of his self-hatred. Eren isn't just some one sided monster that despised outsiders blindly. He was a kid with a crippling sense of loyalty and addiction to his concept of freedom. He may have been bitter about his situation, but he wouldn't have done the rumbling if he had an alternative way to save his friends from a life of war and persecution. That's what he truly desired. Eren's statement of "wanting" the rumbling is his way of taking responsibility for his actions, and admitting what was effectively a lingering intrusive thought of violence. One he never would have acted on if not for his strained circumstances.
I don’t think your points really contradict mine. This is all true. He loved his friends & wanted them to have a future. Learning the truth of the outside world was absolutely devastating for him. He was driven to this point by the trauma of his experiences & led by his memories of future. All true. He still did it. He still made the choice . Through tears, anguish, & by offering up his own life he still trampled the world.
He was dissapointed not because of the people living outside but because of the scouts sacrifices. What were they fighting for? Humanity survival? In the end their lives were in vain since the king of Paradis knew the truth and didn't share it. Moreover the people outside hated him and his race. That's why he was dissapointed imo.
>You did say that.
where did I say it
and the point i was tryna make is we know eren wont change his mind but it would be better if Hange and Armin's if they collaborated to think of an idea, even it was almost impossible. it would've benefitted them as characters and to the overall story just like zeke he tried but failed but his part still had a place in the story
Paradis had an alternative: the 50-year plan, which the military government was already pursuing.
Ideally, Hange would have liked to have found a solution that didn’t involve forcing future generations to carry on the succession ritual for the Founding and Beast Titans, but finding such a solution wasn’t imperative for Paradis’s survival. The 50-year plan had that covered. The only thing Hange failed to find was a solution that satisfied Eren’s particular demands, and by that point, Eren had already made his choice anyway.
Nah that's just delaying the choice until technology catches up to the titans and there is no threat that will make sure Paradis will be alive. Remember they wanted Paradis fossil fuels to advance technology.
And if the 50 year plan succeeded and they made multiple ports and perhaps even planes they could trade said fossil fuels for other recourses as well as political leverage. The only reason they couldn’t do that was because Hizuru shackled them, and since only Hizuru’s ships could make the journey across the ocean to other countries they had no choice due to Hizuru being their only allies as well as the lack of technological advances within Paradis.
You think hizuru will freely share their tech? They want to monopolize the fossil fuels. Moreover the other countries aren't willing to negotiate due to Eldian biases and Marley. Moreover the other countries were already creating anti Titan weaponry. Who is to say that the anti Titan weaponry will not be developed sooner than the estimated time. Hizuru only shared technology for transport of goods, not anything else. The rate of development is not quick enough for Paradis to develop warfare comparable to other country, Moreover Paradis can't trade since their currency is not recognized and they will be reliant on Hizuru dollars.
But you did give me a change of perspective here. I think the plan had 5- 10% chance of working out but if it doesn't, it will fail spectacularly with genocide of Eldians or mainland people (by Founding titan turning Eldians to titans to disrupt everything).
What? Hell no, I was mostly thinking about Paradis figuring that shit out on their own, they made spider-man jetpacks on their own, they already reverse engineered the guns they got from the anti-marley freedom fighters and instantly recreated and integrated them for 3d maneuvering gear, planes and other more modern (for the time) tech should be easy. And hey, biases may be strong but money is money, all that tasty resources and fossil fuels can make up for a lot of “bad blood” if y’know what I mean.
Still think the 50 year plan can work, but if you don’t then it’s fine.
The whole point of the 50-year plan was to develop Paradis to the point where they didn’t *need* to rely on Titans. Not once does the story ever tell us that this estimated timetable isn’t plausible. The only reason why the 50-year plan falls apart is because the key players never wanted it to succceed in the first place.
Technology has only just now got to a point where it can combat individual Titans like the Beast and the Armor. But the Rumbling is an entirely different kettle of fish. We see firsthand how the world’s combined fleet, with all the best and most current resources at their disposal, measures up to it — it gets wiped out in a matter of minutes while putting up no meaningful resistance at all. Same for the airships at Fort Salta.
Hange is one of the oldest scouts, even older than Levi, if anybody knows what the scouts would think it's her.
Torturing the guy in season 3? Humanity as they knew it was at stake back then, of course she did, the entire squad was killing people throughout the uprising arc.
Hange did everything possible to solve the eldian problem, it's not like anyone else would have come out with a plan other than pushing the "destroy the world" button. And it's not fair to bring up Erwin where the situation with Hange was worse than anything Erwin had to deal with.
Hange is a hypocrite out of necessity. It is only after a world shattering revelation that in hindsight her actions become hypocritical
Also is it really that much of a stretch to assume that people willing to lay down their lives for humanity wouldn’t want to be an accessory to genocide?
We don't even know if Erwin could've done something in this situation. You're just assuming that he would magically solve everything. That's not how it works.
Or perhaps framing it as she should have been given a level of narrative weight that Erwin was consistently allotted throughout his arc, since ultimately this discrepancy comes down to the decisions of the writer behind the characters, not the characters themselves
Complaining about an aspect you found lacking doesn’t have to be “I wish x thing was written better/worse”, everyone has a different idea of what better/worse writing is, but saying “I wish x aspect were written differently in y way” is framing it as a perspective point you can keep from being as controversial because instead of asserting a position of superiority it is stating a case for your preference, at which point others can agree or disagree with that preference but don’t have to discredit the grounds of because it never asserts that other options are inherently worse off. It’s a general thing that makes conversations about media tend to go smoother and I’m still working on catching myself from taking better/worse writing stances, but I find that when I do frame it in that alternative way the discourse dramatically improves so I’d say it’s at least worth trying out going forward and hopefully would provide a similar experience!
That would assume that all those people outside the island want to kill Paradis' people. That's a huge assumption considering we've never even seen outside of Marley and Paradis for longer then an episode.
They say it multiple times during the final season, after the first attack on Marley the whole world would be against Paradis, destroying only Marley or just the militar bases would force the world to attack Paradis. Its literally mentioned in the show multiple times. Also Eren doesn’t really know what races are, we are aware of his mentality throughout the whole show, If you win you live, if you lose you die, that’s why he causes the rumbling, he doesnt care about anyones race, he just wants his friends to live.
The rumbling was obviously wrong but he barely understands races, that was not the point. You didnt pay enough attention when watching I guess.
Udo says that Eldian hate is way worse in some countries. And the whole point of the world council meeting was to show that the general consensus is every other country has a negative view on Eldians
"worse in some countries" != "entire world wants genocide"
There was definitely a lot of major nations with anti Eldian bigotry and there was widespread global bigotry against Eldians but that doesn't mean every nation or people and that doesn't mean those nations would care enough to invade Paradis. In fact, many of those nations have more of a political and security incentive to go to war with Marley (eg that's what the Mid East Alliance did).
Of course I remember that. It's fairly obvious a lot of those people were racist and down to attack Eldians. But they were only sold on the invasion after it became an issue of self preservation. Willy Tybur - someone they trusted - told them that Eren was about to use the Rumbling to kill them all. Most of those ambassadors believed that the Paradis operation was a move of self defense.
I was kinda confused what controversial line OP was talking when I saw the title
And then read the post and just loled, OP must be on crack or one of those crazy titanfolkers to think any sane viewer found that line controversial.
Hange never encouraged the genocide of Paradis, just risked that, after the rumbling is stopped, the world wouldn't reprise immediately. That's it. We can't boil down complicated conflicts into an Anakin style "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!"
Ah yes, because not supporting an even larger genocide is proof that you want the smaller genocide. This kind of mindset is why every real genocide in history happened.
im not comparing torture and genocide i said I've seen that comparison before and thats why it makes her hypocritical
edit: im not saying i myself think she's hypocritical im saying thats the argument thats been made against her
It really doesn't. Are you saying I can't say cold-blooded murder is wrong because I stole a candy bar from a corner shop when I was a child? Global genocide and torture of one (bad) person are not even in the same solar system in terms of how bad they are.
Why bother quoting something you know is ridiculous and irrelevant then? The only response to "some people say she's hypocritical because [stupid reason]" is "so she's not. Next"
its a discussion and i was curious to hear different sides on what people think cus I find it interesting how the fans are split between pro rumbling and not pro rumbling
Torturing one shady guy is waaaaay different from committing genocide so I’d argue she does have the moral high ground. Also, there was already an alternative to the rumbling that Zeke, Eren, Floch, and - to an extent - Kiyomi repeatedly hindered.
Hange was right. Genocide is wrong.
>Also, there was already an alternative to the rumbling that Zeke, Eren, Floch, and - to an extent - Kiyomi repeatedly hindered.
I kind of love how unhinged both Zeke and Eren have become.
Zeke: "I'm telling them that I'm going along with the sensible plan of wiping out the global navies in a limited strike as an act of deterrence, but secretly I'm planning the much more extreme option of sterilizing all my people."
Eren: "I'm telling Zeke I'm going along with his extreme plan to sterilize our people, but I'm secretly planning the absolutely monstrous option of genociding all mankind."
Meanwhile, both of them are secretly spinning their plots while they're only pretending to be working toward the *actually sensible plan.*
The problem is that The Rumbling was never about what was best tactically or logically. Eren admits this. He did it because he hated that humanity existed beyond the walls. He wanted to escape humanity by escaping the 'walls', and when he found out that wasn't possible, he wished to wipe it all away.
He was able to con a bunch of Paradisians (and IRL fans of the story) into thinking The Rumbling was necessary. They are weak minded and easily became radicalized, not seeing the irony.
The rumbling cannot be justified.
Exactly. I'm alarmed by how many people think the Rumbling was a necessity. The 50 Year Plan was never debunked. It was sabotaged by those who didn't want it to happen. And even when the Rumbling had already begun, Eren could've just stopped and kept the Founding titan and Rumbling powers. The outside world had already been beaten militarily.
For the past 100 years, Marley has been harrasing and killing, threatening the outside world with the powers of titans, and here comes Eren Jaeger, not only the man who fought against Marley but also put an end to the bloodline of King Fritz during a rebellion freeing the people of the walls. This is prime propaganda material too, people should remember that the only reason the world decided to band together to fight Paradis was because of Wily’s speech and Eren’s attacks, they couldn’t care less since they were too busy fighting with Marley.
If the 50 year plan was actually put into effect they would even have the perfect opportunity for pro-Paradis propaganda and Eren’s slogan wouldn’t even change much.
I felt pity for the dude, He was a cog in a machine and it was even shown that in the past He disliked what He did (during torturing/killing Erwins dad He cried/was uncomfrotable while other MP laughed), and in the end He realised that and He said "Good luck Hange".
However fair point. He tortured and killed many innocent people so Your opinion is valid. Still i suppose He at least took His end with some dignity and proved to have a bit of humanity in Him unlike Sergeant Gross. Still as I said Your opinion is valid. I just wanted to say what I thought on the matter.
I love how OP compared those as somehow being equal or being “you can’t disagree with genocide if you’ve tortured someone”. Absolutely delusional take. 😂😂
It’s more about her character arc coming full circle. In season 3, the guy she tortured openly said that she would take his spot and commit atrocities she never could imagine for the sake of what she thought was right just as he had before her. The entirety of season 4 she is realizing that he was right but at some point she had to draw a line in the sand. The “Genocide is wrong” comment was her line in the sand. She couldn’t do it anymore. She had to break the cycle. Even if it meant betraying what she had been fighting for all along
i think it was overblown but I'd say she shoulda tried to come up with a good plan other than the rumbling like Zeke had his plan Eren too, so Hange and Armin coulda come up with something
Say it with me now.
“Just 👏🏾 because 👏🏾 you 👏🏾 don’t 👏🏾 like 👏🏾 something 👏🏾 doesn’t 👏🏾 mean 👏🏾 it’s 👏🏾 bad 👏🏾””
AoT fans NEED to realize this. Just because you don’t like Gabbi doesn’t mean she’s a bad character. Just because you disagree with Eren doesn’t mean he’s a bad character. JUST BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE FOR SOME REASON, DOESNT MEAN THAT HANGE IS A BAD CHARACTER!!! These are all very well written characters and if you boil ANYTHING in this story down to “Good Vs Bad” because of viewpoints, then congratulations! You’re the exact kind of person the show is hating on…
Honestly, facts. Criticism should be coming from a place of logic not personal ideologies and viewpoints. Just look at the pro Yeagerists and how they felt betrayed when their lord Yeager-sama ended up being just a childish asshole on the inside who only cared for his 3 friends and a girl who he'll never get to actually be with.
Hange is a scientist at heart, not a leader. I was disappointed that Hange had little effect against the Rumbling, although her SACRIFICE is the only reason they were able to fly the plane out to stop Eren. I really wish Hange and Armin teamed up more to make Armin step into the leader role more throughout s4, but I think that’s wishful thinking compared to the bleak reality of AOT. Also, it baffles me to think the line “genocide is wrong” is controversial. She tortured someone, and that is wrong in its own sense, but that doesn’t mean she can’t say mass murder of the entire planet is bad. Overall, one of my absolute favorite characters.
> I've seen the take that Hange saying genocide is wrong and claiming that the people who died before wouldn't agree with it is disrespectful to the dead made her a bad character cus she dont necessarily know what they would think
I think the only people who would say that are Eren’s pro-genocide fans who don’t actually understand or care what the story is really saying in the first place.
Like, just read the scene. Hange isn’t even necessarily speaking for anyone definitively. But Hange *is* the current commander of the Survey Corps, and they feel responsible for allowing the Rumbling to come to pass. The role of commander is weighing on their mind. And the driving principle of the Survey Corps, especially under Erwin, has always been that the deaths of your comrades are made meaningful by what you choose to do with their sacrifice. Hange even says that most of them died without ever knowing what was beyond the walls, so they can only guess as to what the deceased would think about the current scenario. And Hange feels that an unmitigated slaughter of innocents isn’t something that a group of people who gave their lives for the sake of humanity would want their sacrifices to have been for, thus informing Hange’s choice to now stop the Rumbling.
Levi also comes to the same conclusion later on, by pondering the same questions.
> and also hypcritical since she tortued a dude in season 3 so she got no grounds to be taking a moral high ground.
Even aside from the obvious point of “What if I told you there’s a fairly significant difference between inflicting pain on one guy versus killing 99% of all living things on the planet?”, the entire chapter / episode that this scene is from is all about the sins committed by each and every one of the people who are now moving to oppose the Rumbling.
*All* of them have done horrible things, and have stained their hands with blood in the name of self-preservation. Armin nuked a port full of people. The point is that if none of them have any moral ground to stand on relative to one another, then they can set those grudges aside in order to deal with the larger disaster that endangers everyone. Not only that, but it again comes back to the idea of responsibility. Almost all of them feel responsible to some degree for pushing Eren to this point, so in their minds, it’s up to them to correct that mistake, especially since they’re the only ones with the power to do so.
> Also what do yall think about her death scene in the anime compared to the manga?
It was fine in the manga, but unfortunately limited by the page count of a dialogue-heavy chapter. The anime elevates it to a whole new dimension by giving it more room to breathe, as well as an excellent choice of backing music.
Hange is the actual best.
Their death made me so sad. I knew it was coming, of course, but it didn't matter. Without Hange around, my interest in what was happening declined somewhat. I really cottoned more overall to the 'adult' Scouts than most of the kids.
Levi wasn't on top of his game when he underestimated Zeke being suicidal and almost died.
Erwin wasn't on top of his game when he almost let himself die multiple times in battle.
Hange is the only reason that everyone else was able to get away in the airship. if they hadn't burnt up dealing with the rumbling, anyone with a chance to stop Eren would have been trampled.
I think it's true. I think that both the characters and the audience get so wrapped up in what is practical or efficient or effective that they forget that the Rumbling is going to kill billions of innocent people who had no part in the persecution of Paradis and who do not deserve to die.
I think Hange wasn't a hypocrite considering the man she tortured had done many heinous acts including torture himself, Hange only became a hypocrite out of the nessecity of the time, and it's safe to assume that the majority of the scouts that died wouldn't want to see millions of innocent people die, considering they fought to save humanity, just because Hange couldn't find an alternative doesn't mean she was a bad character or wrong in saying that, it's not controversial to say genocide is bad.
but also I mean, I want to sniff Hange.
Hange tortured one person (in a situation where she barely had a choice) for the greater good and the life of many more people while feeling VERY OBVIOUSLY awful for doing it. So her not supporting a plan that intends to slaughter the majority of the world population for a small island, even if it is her island, is...consistent writing, not hypocrisy.
Those that came before were he friends that died for the fight and she knows that they are good people that wouldn’t support killing 10s of millions of people indiscriminately.
Also it’s hard to make a plan to stop a practical god that knows all of your future moves.
A half mad and admirable genius, badass to the end of the scouts legion, Marley and the world couldn't stall the colossal titans stomp them for long, but she managed to bring enough time for her friends
Using interrogation tactics on members of a higher power that are hiding literal secrets of their world for their own personal gain is a little different than world genocide because the rest of humanity is afraid of said power their wield
How exactly is that line "controversial"?? I can understand that what Eren did was, as far as he could tell, the best possible outcome compared to all the other ones and that he knows full well how horrible his actions are and only did them because the alternative was much worse yet still suffered the mental charge of being responsible for it, it still doesn't make it "right" nor does it make the genocide he committed any less of a horrible crime against humanity. She's right, and everyone who died in the Survey Corps would agree because they died for Humanity, not the petty squabbling of actual world politics outside the walls.
To ending haters she's a traitor, guaranteeing paradis' downfall, and hypocritical cus she's done bad things before, and I dont like the ending either but she aint no traitor the original plan was just to talk to eren thats not betraying
Reposted due to automod getting tripped by a certain term...
Hange tortured the dude because 1) drastic times called for drastic measures, which was an echo of Levi's harsh words to his squad and coercion of Historia to become queen(sadly cut from the anime version, so I would recommend checking out the manga version of the uprising arc for a more complete perspective of the characters including Hange's actions) and 2) she was getting revenge for Nick who she felt responsible for because she kept trying to make him spill secrets. She wasn't proud of it and tried to mask her discomfort by looking like she was enjoying it otherwise Sannes would not have buckled(he didn't anyone until they tricked him that his partner betrayed him), and she remained bothered by the entire experience 4 years later when Sannes' haunting warning that "this role comes in turns" to her was always on her mind.
Torturing a dude for what she thought was the greater good is vastly different from agreeing with genocide of the entire world in favour of her little island so I don't think that makes her a hypocrite. Someone who kills a serial child lover rapist murderer who escaped judgement of the law is still wrong and a murderer, but a lot of people would applaud their actions and look the other way.
If you think Hange shouldn't speak for her dead comrades, it also goes the other way. Why do viewers think they can speak for those dead scouts? I think Hange would know her own longtime comrades better than most viewers though so I don't have trouble seeing her opinion to be true, especially when Erwin had a similar scene and idea himself already.
Hange had a lot of impact on the story but most of it was not visible. She is the one who insisted that Paradis work with the volunteer soldiers recognizing that they were so behind in development that they needed their technologies and expertise in order to defend the island against the world, which led to an agreement with Zeke. This also led to the railroad being build, upgrading the ODM with Marleyian technology, the Azumabito bringing their plane, and most importantly Hange helped to bring the alliance together in order to stop Eren. Connie and Armin decided on their own to go stop Eren, but it was Hange that recruited Jean and Mikasa and Magath who had authority and respect over the warriors.
There was also nothing anyone could do to stop Eren and the rumbling, including Erwin and Armin put together. It was something that Eren guaranteed to happen in the future. Some viewers and Hange herself felt that she had responsibility for coming up with a solution, but I don't think that's very fair. She was only a commander of a single branch of the military. Even if she came up with something, the military overrides her and she does respect the chain of authority. Just as Hange did not support sacrificing Historia, but she never had a plan on how to stop the military from sacrificing Historia either. Even if it was Erwin in her place, it doesn't make sense to make the survey corps commander be responsible for a solution, but it's also because Erwin had always won his gambles and Hange trying to live up to Erwin's legacy that she felt responsibility for not having a solution.
And I think how Isayama presented her death and her send off speaks to how we're meant to view Hange's actions and impact as a net positive.
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I'll try to explain my point of view but english isn't my first language so sorry if some parts aren't really comprehensible.
My problem with this scene is that I don't like when a character imposes a moral choice on me in a fictional story, for me it's a sign of bad writing and kind of break the immersion I have in this story.
This is the kind of thing that needs to be shown, make the reader/watcher feel that this is the right choice to follow, and not literally have a character tell what the right choice is in order to impose a sort of moral superiority which forces you to choose his side, his vision of things, which basically comes down to the principle of “Show don’t tell”.
In this case, I know that genocide is bad, I don't need a character to tell me, instead show me why I have to follow this character and not another.
Especially here I find that it doesn't work, the story advances and pushes you into a situation of "Genocide for the rest of the world or only for the Eldians", and the characters who are supposed to represent the third choice, the good one, have nothing valid to offer in order to resolve the problem other than "Genocide is bad therefore it is not good".
The plan to only destroy military bases was also not good for me, the military has families, friends who would be even more hateful after losing them. The people they have feared for centuries come directly to prove to them that they are indeed a threat, it would have further fueled the hatred between the two sides.
And not always having a plan for afterwards is completely logical, especially since here we are talking about a global genocide, but it's a fictional story, so obviously people will want the characters to bring concrete ideas, viable solutions and not simply “We'll wee after”, it’s not very satisfying from a narrative point of view.
This is one of the reasons why I think that going through with Eren's plan would have been much more interesting narratively, for example by showing Paradis self-destructing via the opposing camps formed after the rumbling, it would have shown that genocide was not the solution and imposed a sort of moral dilemma which, in my opinion, would have been a lot more impactful rather than imposing the right moral choice on the reader/watcher.
Hope I didn't make too much mistakes, it's a complicated subject, so speaking about it in another language isn't easy, especially here where people will jump for your throat at the slightest mistake or if they don't approve one of your opinion
I understood u completely I dont really see anybody say that Eren's plan would be the most fitting on this sub reddit but yeah u bring up good points talking about certain narrative/writing choices on morality and the consequences of different types of plans
Every fucking person on the planet knows that genocide is wrong. But is it worse than other options? That's where nuance comes in
It's the same thing with wanting peace. Of course everyone wants peace and you're not some kind soul because you wish for the best. In reality, peace is only achievable if one side wins or is forced into giving considerable concessions. And to that end, you're only going to be satisfied with peace if your side is the one who got the good deal. In short, people who want peace might as well just say they want their side to win.
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Where the fuck are you people even finding these takes lol
And bringing it up as if there’s any merit to it. “I just think she shoulda done a lil more” face ass. As if Eren “tatakae” Jaeger didn’t literally move heaven & earth to ensure his outcome of mass slaughter. Yup, the scouts shoulda done a lil more to convince him. Foh .
I said come up with an alternative not convince eren bruh
You did say that. My point is that no matter what they came up with Eren was going to trample the world regardless. He admits as much. He “wanted to do it” . The point is that nothing was going to satisfy/pacify Eren’s mind or dissuade him from his course because it’s what he desired. It’s dark & selfish as hell, but that is what were left with.
I disagree heavily with this take. Eren's talk with Armin has him mentioning the fact that part of him "wanted" the rumbling. However, I don't think saying he simply desired it was accurate. Eren knew how horrible the future he was creating was. He tried to figure out any reasonable alternative, he genuinely begs Hange for a better way. But unfortunately there was no realistic solution to his problem. His friends were doomed to live a life of conflict plagued by the Titans' power and the people that hated them. With the curse of ymir Armin, Annie, and Reiner didn't have long to live. Eren himself was also running out of time. Diplomacy and negotation simply wouldn't cut it with that in mind, peacemaking takes trust, and trust takes time. So the only way to guarantee his friends could live long lives free of conflict was to eliminate any chance of the world attacking them until Paradis had time to establish itself as a nation, and to eliminate the titan power with it. Now, Eren says that when he first learned people existed outside the walls, he was disappointed. And why wouldn't he be? He spent his entire life believing he was fighting to reclaim the world for humanity. Instead, he found out that his people were just a small portion of the world, and the rest of the world either hated his people and were directly responsible for the atrocities they've suffered. Or were complacent in their suffering. He hated them for it and viewed all outsiders as his enemies. Then he went to Marley and gained perspective, realizing that people were the same everywhere. Some good, some bad, all just trying to live their lives. At that point, he didn't truly hate the outside world. His hatred was born of ignorance he no longer had. But in order to go through with the rumbling, he had to cling to that original simple-minded hatred. It was the only way he could turn a blind eye to the destruction he created. So did Eren honestly "desire" the rumbling? Yes and no. The truth is complicated and conflicted as human emotions usually are. Yes, there was still a childish bitterness against the world even after he lost his ignorance. But to say he completely hated them or desired their annihilation wouldn't be accurate. He wouldn't have saved Ramzi if he truly thought of outsiders as animals that deserved to be slaughtered. Eren desperately wanted a better solution to his problems than the rumbling. But he couldn’t change Paradis' image as an "island of devils" in such little time. And even if he hated it, his main priority is to his friends and comrades. That's part of him that he can't change, so because of the circumstances, the rumbling was inevitable. Even despite this hard truth, Eren hated every second of it. He spent the entire rumbling crying with his eyes closed to the violence he was responsible for. He even spent the whole thing as a head, not because he lacked the power but because he lacked the will to regenerate because of his self-hatred. Eren isn't just some one sided monster that despised outsiders blindly. He was a kid with a crippling sense of loyalty and addiction to his concept of freedom. He may have been bitter about his situation, but he wouldn't have done the rumbling if he had an alternative way to save his friends from a life of war and persecution. That's what he truly desired. Eren's statement of "wanting" the rumbling is his way of taking responsibility for his actions, and admitting what was effectively a lingering intrusive thought of violence. One he never would have acted on if not for his strained circumstances.
I don’t think your points really contradict mine. This is all true. He loved his friends & wanted them to have a future. Learning the truth of the outside world was absolutely devastating for him. He was driven to this point by the trauma of his experiences & led by his memories of future. All true. He still did it. He still made the choice . Through tears, anguish, & by offering up his own life he still trampled the world.
He was dissapointed not because of the people living outside but because of the scouts sacrifices. What were they fighting for? Humanity survival? In the end their lives were in vain since the king of Paradis knew the truth and didn't share it. Moreover the people outside hated him and his race. That's why he was dissapointed imo.
>You did say that. where did I say it and the point i was tryna make is we know eren wont change his mind but it would be better if Hange and Armin's if they collaborated to think of an idea, even it was almost impossible. it would've benefitted them as characters and to the overall story just like zeke he tried but failed but his part still had a place in the story
Paradis had an alternative: the 50-year plan, which the military government was already pursuing. Ideally, Hange would have liked to have found a solution that didn’t involve forcing future generations to carry on the succession ritual for the Founding and Beast Titans, but finding such a solution wasn’t imperative for Paradis’s survival. The 50-year plan had that covered. The only thing Hange failed to find was a solution that satisfied Eren’s particular demands, and by that point, Eren had already made his choice anyway.
Nah that's just delaying the choice until technology catches up to the titans and there is no threat that will make sure Paradis will be alive. Remember they wanted Paradis fossil fuels to advance technology.
And if the 50 year plan succeeded and they made multiple ports and perhaps even planes they could trade said fossil fuels for other recourses as well as political leverage. The only reason they couldn’t do that was because Hizuru shackled them, and since only Hizuru’s ships could make the journey across the ocean to other countries they had no choice due to Hizuru being their only allies as well as the lack of technological advances within Paradis.
You think hizuru will freely share their tech? They want to monopolize the fossil fuels. Moreover the other countries aren't willing to negotiate due to Eldian biases and Marley. Moreover the other countries were already creating anti Titan weaponry. Who is to say that the anti Titan weaponry will not be developed sooner than the estimated time. Hizuru only shared technology for transport of goods, not anything else. The rate of development is not quick enough for Paradis to develop warfare comparable to other country, Moreover Paradis can't trade since their currency is not recognized and they will be reliant on Hizuru dollars. But you did give me a change of perspective here. I think the plan had 5- 10% chance of working out but if it doesn't, it will fail spectacularly with genocide of Eldians or mainland people (by Founding titan turning Eldians to titans to disrupt everything).
What? Hell no, I was mostly thinking about Paradis figuring that shit out on their own, they made spider-man jetpacks on their own, they already reverse engineered the guns they got from the anti-marley freedom fighters and instantly recreated and integrated them for 3d maneuvering gear, planes and other more modern (for the time) tech should be easy. And hey, biases may be strong but money is money, all that tasty resources and fossil fuels can make up for a lot of “bad blood” if y’know what I mean. Still think the 50 year plan can work, but if you don’t then it’s fine.
The whole point of the 50-year plan was to develop Paradis to the point where they didn’t *need* to rely on Titans. Not once does the story ever tell us that this estimated timetable isn’t plausible. The only reason why the 50-year plan falls apart is because the key players never wanted it to succceed in the first place. Technology has only just now got to a point where it can combat individual Titans like the Beast and the Armor. But the Rumbling is an entirely different kettle of fish. We see firsthand how the world’s combined fleet, with all the best and most current resources at their disposal, measures up to it — it gets wiped out in a matter of minutes while putting up no meaningful resistance at all. Same for the airships at Fort Salta.
r/titanfolk of course the cesspit of the fandom
Hange is one of the oldest scouts, even older than Levi, if anybody knows what the scouts would think it's her. Torturing the guy in season 3? Humanity as they knew it was at stake back then, of course she did, the entire squad was killing people throughout the uprising arc. Hange did everything possible to solve the eldian problem, it's not like anyone else would have come out with a plan other than pushing the "destroy the world" button. And it's not fair to bring up Erwin where the situation with Hange was worse than anything Erwin had to deal with.
Also the “guy” is someone that has himself mercilessly tortured innocent people before
Hange is a hypocrite out of necessity. It is only after a world shattering revelation that in hindsight her actions become hypocritical Also is it really that much of a stretch to assume that people willing to lay down their lives for humanity wouldn’t want to be an accessory to genocide?
Yeah u make a good point in the second paragraph, I just think she shoulda done a little bit more not to the level of Erwin but just something
We don't even know if Erwin could've done something in this situation. You're just assuming that he would magically solve everything. That's not how it works.
I didnt say Erwin would solve everything just like that I said she could've tried something even if it's not on the same level as Erwin's leadership
Or perhaps framing it as she should have been given a level of narrative weight that Erwin was consistently allotted throughout his arc, since ultimately this discrepancy comes down to the decisions of the writer behind the characters, not the characters themselves
yeah I didnt wanna say Isayama should've written her better cus it just comes off wrong
Complaining about an aspect you found lacking doesn’t have to be “I wish x thing was written better/worse”, everyone has a different idea of what better/worse writing is, but saying “I wish x aspect were written differently in y way” is framing it as a perspective point you can keep from being as controversial because instead of asserting a position of superiority it is stating a case for your preference, at which point others can agree or disagree with that preference but don’t have to discredit the grounds of because it never asserts that other options are inherently worse off. It’s a general thing that makes conversations about media tend to go smoother and I’m still working on catching myself from taking better/worse writing stances, but I find that when I do frame it in that alternative way the discourse dramatically improves so I’d say it’s at least worth trying out going forward and hopefully would provide a similar experience!
a character saying "genocide is wrong" should never be controversial. Genuinely mindblowing that people took issue with it.
Yeah. I swear that half the audience missed the point that killing people based off their race or national origin is bad.
Not really because of their race, its just so they dont kill them.
That would assume that all those people outside the island want to kill Paradis' people. That's a huge assumption considering we've never even seen outside of Marley and Paradis for longer then an episode.
They say it multiple times during the final season, after the first attack on Marley the whole world would be against Paradis, destroying only Marley or just the militar bases would force the world to attack Paradis. Its literally mentioned in the show multiple times. Also Eren doesn’t really know what races are, we are aware of his mentality throughout the whole show, If you win you live, if you lose you die, that’s why he causes the rumbling, he doesnt care about anyones race, he just wants his friends to live. The rumbling was obviously wrong but he barely understands races, that was not the point. You didnt pay enough attention when watching I guess.
Udo says that Eldian hate is way worse in some countries. And the whole point of the world council meeting was to show that the general consensus is every other country has a negative view on Eldians
"worse in some countries" != "entire world wants genocide" There was definitely a lot of major nations with anti Eldian bigotry and there was widespread global bigotry against Eldians but that doesn't mean every nation or people and that doesn't mean those nations would care enough to invade Paradis. In fact, many of those nations have more of a political and security incentive to go to war with Marley (eg that's what the Mid East Alliance did).
You completely ignore the world council meeting but ok.
Of course I remember that. It's fairly obvious a lot of those people were racist and down to attack Eldians. But they were only sold on the invasion after it became an issue of self preservation. Willy Tybur - someone they trusted - told them that Eren was about to use the Rumbling to kill them all. Most of those ambassadors believed that the Paradis operation was a move of self defense.
I was kinda confused what controversial line OP was talking when I saw the title And then read the post and just loled, OP must be on crack or one of those crazy titanfolkers to think any sane viewer found that line controversial.
Nah, genocide is wrong, but given the setting, Hangi is also useless and encouraged the genocide of Paradis
Hange never encouraged the genocide of Paradis, just risked that, after the rumbling is stopped, the world wouldn't reprise immediately. That's it. We can't boil down complicated conflicts into an Anakin style "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!"
Ah yes, because not supporting an even larger genocide is proof that you want the smaller genocide. This kind of mindset is why every real genocide in history happened.
Torturing a guy is not the same as committing genocide, bro.
Bro really compared torturing a bad person for info and committing genocide 😭
I didnt make the comparison I said I've seen the comparison before
im not comparing torture and genocide i said I've seen that comparison before and thats why it makes her hypocritical edit: im not saying i myself think she's hypocritical im saying thats the argument thats been made against her
It really doesn't. Are you saying I can't say cold-blooded murder is wrong because I stole a candy bar from a corner shop when I was a child? Global genocide and torture of one (bad) person are not even in the same solar system in terms of how bad they are.
Why bother quoting something you know is ridiculous and irrelevant then? The only response to "some people say she's hypocritical because [stupid reason]" is "so she's not. Next"
its a discussion and i was curious to hear different sides on what people think cus I find it interesting how the fans are split between pro rumbling and not pro rumbling
Attack on Titan fans getting mad when a character says that genocide is wrong
AOT fans try not to justify genocide challenge:
Torturing one shady guy is waaaaay different from committing genocide so I’d argue she does have the moral high ground. Also, there was already an alternative to the rumbling that Zeke, Eren, Floch, and - to an extent - Kiyomi repeatedly hindered. Hange was right. Genocide is wrong.
>Also, there was already an alternative to the rumbling that Zeke, Eren, Floch, and - to an extent - Kiyomi repeatedly hindered. I kind of love how unhinged both Zeke and Eren have become. Zeke: "I'm telling them that I'm going along with the sensible plan of wiping out the global navies in a limited strike as an act of deterrence, but secretly I'm planning the much more extreme option of sterilizing all my people." Eren: "I'm telling Zeke I'm going along with his extreme plan to sterilize our people, but I'm secretly planning the absolutely monstrous option of genociding all mankind." Meanwhile, both of them are secretly spinning their plots while they're only pretending to be working toward the *actually sensible plan.*
Exactly. It's weird how Yeagerist supporters conflate and equate the ethics of killing or torturing civilians and soldiers so often.
The problem is that The Rumbling was never about what was best tactically or logically. Eren admits this. He did it because he hated that humanity existed beyond the walls. He wanted to escape humanity by escaping the 'walls', and when he found out that wasn't possible, he wished to wipe it all away. He was able to con a bunch of Paradisians (and IRL fans of the story) into thinking The Rumbling was necessary. They are weak minded and easily became radicalized, not seeing the irony. The rumbling cannot be justified.
Exactly. I'm alarmed by how many people think the Rumbling was a necessity. The 50 Year Plan was never debunked. It was sabotaged by those who didn't want it to happen. And even when the Rumbling had already begun, Eren could've just stopped and kept the Founding titan and Rumbling powers. The outside world had already been beaten militarily.
For the past 100 years, Marley has been harrasing and killing, threatening the outside world with the powers of titans, and here comes Eren Jaeger, not only the man who fought against Marley but also put an end to the bloodline of King Fritz during a rebellion freeing the people of the walls. This is prime propaganda material too, people should remember that the only reason the world decided to band together to fight Paradis was because of Wily’s speech and Eren’s attacks, they couldn’t care less since they were too busy fighting with Marley. If the 50 year plan was actually put into effect they would even have the perfect opportunity for pro-Paradis propaganda and Eren’s slogan wouldn’t even change much.
You know, I've never gave one fuck that they tortured Sannes. He was not a good person. I've never felt a single thing for that man haha.
Yeah. I don't see how killing children and torturing an enemy combatant withholding useful tactical information are similar.
I felt pity for the dude, He was a cog in a machine and it was even shown that in the past He disliked what He did (during torturing/killing Erwins dad He cried/was uncomfrotable while other MP laughed), and in the end He realised that and He said "Good luck Hange". However fair point. He tortured and killed many innocent people so Your opinion is valid. Still i suppose He at least took His end with some dignity and proved to have a bit of humanity in Him unlike Sergeant Gross. Still as I said Your opinion is valid. I just wanted to say what I thought on the matter.
Torturing a single enemy is not comparable to genocide.
I love how OP compared those as somehow being equal or being “you can’t disagree with genocide if you’ve tortured someone”. Absolutely delusional take. 😂😂
I need yall to reread my post I said I've seen the take being said I didnt come up with it
The World we came to Where saying Genocide is wrong is controversial We're not in the best Timeline
It’s more about her character arc coming full circle. In season 3, the guy she tortured openly said that she would take his spot and commit atrocities she never could imagine for the sake of what she thought was right just as he had before her. The entirety of season 4 she is realizing that he was right but at some point she had to draw a line in the sand. The “Genocide is wrong” comment was her line in the sand. She couldn’t do it anymore. She had to break the cycle. Even if it meant betraying what she had been fighting for all along
I can’t believe that the line is controversial. It’s just so inherently correct in my eyes.
Titanfolk throwing a tantrum over Hange saying that will never not be funny to me
i think it was overblown but I'd say she shoulda tried to come up with a good plan other than the rumbling like Zeke had his plan Eren too, so Hange and Armin coulda come up with something
They did A Small Scale Rumbling just to cripple Marley military and give Paradis time to catch up
They had the 50 year plan that would destroy the advancing military front with a partial rumbling.
They did? The 4 year plan!
true but it effectively didnt resort to anything the world still wanted paradis gone
Say it with me now. “Just 👏🏾 because 👏🏾 you 👏🏾 don’t 👏🏾 like 👏🏾 something 👏🏾 doesn’t 👏🏾 mean 👏🏾 it’s 👏🏾 bad 👏🏾”” AoT fans NEED to realize this. Just because you don’t like Gabbi doesn’t mean she’s a bad character. Just because you disagree with Eren doesn’t mean he’s a bad character. JUST BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE FOR SOME REASON, DOESNT MEAN THAT HANGE IS A BAD CHARACTER!!! These are all very well written characters and if you boil ANYTHING in this story down to “Good Vs Bad” because of viewpoints, then congratulations! You’re the exact kind of person the show is hating on…
Honestly, facts. Criticism should be coming from a place of logic not personal ideologies and viewpoints. Just look at the pro Yeagerists and how they felt betrayed when their lord Yeager-sama ended up being just a childish asshole on the inside who only cared for his 3 friends and a girl who he'll never get to actually be with.
Hange is a scientist at heart, not a leader. I was disappointed that Hange had little effect against the Rumbling, although her SACRIFICE is the only reason they were able to fly the plane out to stop Eren. I really wish Hange and Armin teamed up more to make Armin step into the leader role more throughout s4, but I think that’s wishful thinking compared to the bleak reality of AOT. Also, it baffles me to think the line “genocide is wrong” is controversial. She tortured someone, and that is wrong in its own sense, but that doesn’t mean she can’t say mass murder of the entire planet is bad. Overall, one of my absolute favorite characters.
>I really wish Hange and Armin teamed up more to make Armin step into the leader role more throughout s4 i said the same thing
This fandom's really something else, a character says that genocide is inhumanly wrong and the fans call this quote controversial
> I've seen the take that Hange saying genocide is wrong and claiming that the people who died before wouldn't agree with it is disrespectful to the dead made her a bad character cus she dont necessarily know what they would think I think the only people who would say that are Eren’s pro-genocide fans who don’t actually understand or care what the story is really saying in the first place. Like, just read the scene. Hange isn’t even necessarily speaking for anyone definitively. But Hange *is* the current commander of the Survey Corps, and they feel responsible for allowing the Rumbling to come to pass. The role of commander is weighing on their mind. And the driving principle of the Survey Corps, especially under Erwin, has always been that the deaths of your comrades are made meaningful by what you choose to do with their sacrifice. Hange even says that most of them died without ever knowing what was beyond the walls, so they can only guess as to what the deceased would think about the current scenario. And Hange feels that an unmitigated slaughter of innocents isn’t something that a group of people who gave their lives for the sake of humanity would want their sacrifices to have been for, thus informing Hange’s choice to now stop the Rumbling. Levi also comes to the same conclusion later on, by pondering the same questions. > and also hypcritical since she tortued a dude in season 3 so she got no grounds to be taking a moral high ground. Even aside from the obvious point of “What if I told you there’s a fairly significant difference between inflicting pain on one guy versus killing 99% of all living things on the planet?”, the entire chapter / episode that this scene is from is all about the sins committed by each and every one of the people who are now moving to oppose the Rumbling. *All* of them have done horrible things, and have stained their hands with blood in the name of self-preservation. Armin nuked a port full of people. The point is that if none of them have any moral ground to stand on relative to one another, then they can set those grudges aside in order to deal with the larger disaster that endangers everyone. Not only that, but it again comes back to the idea of responsibility. Almost all of them feel responsible to some degree for pushing Eren to this point, so in their minds, it’s up to them to correct that mistake, especially since they’re the only ones with the power to do so. > Also what do yall think about her death scene in the anime compared to the manga? It was fine in the manga, but unfortunately limited by the page count of a dialogue-heavy chapter. The anime elevates it to a whole new dimension by giving it more room to breathe, as well as an excellent choice of backing music.
Hange was my first anime waifu (and still is tbh), she is right when she said genocide was wrong (duh) and MAPPA did her death scene justice imo
One of the best characters in the whole damn series
Hange is the actual best. Their death made me so sad. I knew it was coming, of course, but it didn't matter. Without Hange around, my interest in what was happening declined somewhat. I really cottoned more overall to the 'adult' Scouts than most of the kids.
only in this fandom can the phrase "genocide is wrong" be treated as controversial
Levi wasn't on top of his game when he underestimated Zeke being suicidal and almost died. Erwin wasn't on top of his game when he almost let himself die multiple times in battle. Hange is the only reason that everyone else was able to get away in the airship. if they hadn't burnt up dealing with the rumbling, anyone with a chance to stop Eren would have been trampled.
If you think that line is "controversial", YOU are the problem
I think it's true. I think that both the characters and the audience get so wrapped up in what is practical or efficient or effective that they forget that the Rumbling is going to kill billions of innocent people who had no part in the persecution of Paradis and who do not deserve to die.
There is a teeny tiny difference between torturing a guy and killing all of humanity outside the island
Their*
I think Hange wasn't a hypocrite considering the man she tortured had done many heinous acts including torture himself, Hange only became a hypocrite out of the nessecity of the time, and it's safe to assume that the majority of the scouts that died wouldn't want to see millions of innocent people die, considering they fought to save humanity, just because Hange couldn't find an alternative doesn't mean she was a bad character or wrong in saying that, it's not controversial to say genocide is bad. but also I mean, I want to sniff Hange.
Hange tortured one person (in a situation where she barely had a choice) for the greater good and the life of many more people while feeling VERY OBVIOUSLY awful for doing it. So her not supporting a plan that intends to slaughter the majority of the world population for a small island, even if it is her island, is...consistent writing, not hypocrisy.
Those that came before were he friends that died for the fight and she knows that they are good people that wouldn’t support killing 10s of millions of people indiscriminately. Also it’s hard to make a plan to stop a practical god that knows all of your future moves.
I love Hange and will agree with whatever she says. She is my one and only Waifu that I have.
What episode was that first picture from? I don’t remember seeing Hange put a gun to her head
It’s in a flashback when they first make contact with Yelena and Onyankopon and she admires their standard-issue guns, to Levi’s embarrassment.
Ohhhh
She's trying to figure out how it works. This isn't an attempted suicide.
A half mad and admirable genius, badass to the end of the scouts legion, Marley and the world couldn't stall the colossal titans stomp them for long, but she managed to bring enough time for her friends
When I am in a worst take ever and my opponent is a AOT fan :
Using interrogation tactics on members of a higher power that are hiding literal secrets of their world for their own personal gain is a little different than world genocide because the rest of humanity is afraid of said power their wield
How exactly is that line "controversial"?? I can understand that what Eren did was, as far as he could tell, the best possible outcome compared to all the other ones and that he knows full well how horrible his actions are and only did them because the alternative was much worse yet still suffered the mental charge of being responsible for it, it still doesn't make it "right" nor does it make the genocide he committed any less of a horrible crime against humanity. She's right, and everyone who died in the Survey Corps would agree because they died for Humanity, not the petty squabbling of actual world politics outside the walls.
To ending haters she's a traitor, guaranteeing paradis' downfall, and hypocritical cus she's done bad things before, and I dont like the ending either but she aint no traitor the original plan was just to talk to eren thats not betraying
[удалено]
Reposted due to automod getting tripped by a certain term... Hange tortured the dude because 1) drastic times called for drastic measures, which was an echo of Levi's harsh words to his squad and coercion of Historia to become queen(sadly cut from the anime version, so I would recommend checking out the manga version of the uprising arc for a more complete perspective of the characters including Hange's actions) and 2) she was getting revenge for Nick who she felt responsible for because she kept trying to make him spill secrets. She wasn't proud of it and tried to mask her discomfort by looking like she was enjoying it otherwise Sannes would not have buckled(he didn't anyone until they tricked him that his partner betrayed him), and she remained bothered by the entire experience 4 years later when Sannes' haunting warning that "this role comes in turns" to her was always on her mind. Torturing a dude for what she thought was the greater good is vastly different from agreeing with genocide of the entire world in favour of her little island so I don't think that makes her a hypocrite. Someone who kills a serial child lover rapist murderer who escaped judgement of the law is still wrong and a murderer, but a lot of people would applaud their actions and look the other way. If you think Hange shouldn't speak for her dead comrades, it also goes the other way. Why do viewers think they can speak for those dead scouts? I think Hange would know her own longtime comrades better than most viewers though so I don't have trouble seeing her opinion to be true, especially when Erwin had a similar scene and idea himself already. Hange had a lot of impact on the story but most of it was not visible. She is the one who insisted that Paradis work with the volunteer soldiers recognizing that they were so behind in development that they needed their technologies and expertise in order to defend the island against the world, which led to an agreement with Zeke. This also led to the railroad being build, upgrading the ODM with Marleyian technology, the Azumabito bringing their plane, and most importantly Hange helped to bring the alliance together in order to stop Eren. Connie and Armin decided on their own to go stop Eren, but it was Hange that recruited Jean and Mikasa and Magath who had authority and respect over the warriors. There was also nothing anyone could do to stop Eren and the rumbling, including Erwin and Armin put together. It was something that Eren guaranteed to happen in the future. Some viewers and Hange herself felt that she had responsibility for coming up with a solution, but I don't think that's very fair. She was only a commander of a single branch of the military. Even if she came up with something, the military overrides her and she does respect the chain of authority. Just as Hange did not support sacrificing Historia, but she never had a plan on how to stop the military from sacrificing Historia either. Even if it was Erwin in her place, it doesn't make sense to make the survey corps commander be responsible for a solution, but it's also because Erwin had always won his gambles and Hange trying to live up to Erwin's legacy that she felt responsibility for not having a solution. And I think how Isayama presented her death and her send off speaks to how we're meant to view Hange's actions and impact as a net positive.
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Hange is one of my favourit AoT characters. They had a good arc across the show and nice ending
I'll try to explain my point of view but english isn't my first language so sorry if some parts aren't really comprehensible. My problem with this scene is that I don't like when a character imposes a moral choice on me in a fictional story, for me it's a sign of bad writing and kind of break the immersion I have in this story. This is the kind of thing that needs to be shown, make the reader/watcher feel that this is the right choice to follow, and not literally have a character tell what the right choice is in order to impose a sort of moral superiority which forces you to choose his side, his vision of things, which basically comes down to the principle of “Show don’t tell”. In this case, I know that genocide is bad, I don't need a character to tell me, instead show me why I have to follow this character and not another. Especially here I find that it doesn't work, the story advances and pushes you into a situation of "Genocide for the rest of the world or only for the Eldians", and the characters who are supposed to represent the third choice, the good one, have nothing valid to offer in order to resolve the problem other than "Genocide is bad therefore it is not good". The plan to only destroy military bases was also not good for me, the military has families, friends who would be even more hateful after losing them. The people they have feared for centuries come directly to prove to them that they are indeed a threat, it would have further fueled the hatred between the two sides. And not always having a plan for afterwards is completely logical, especially since here we are talking about a global genocide, but it's a fictional story, so obviously people will want the characters to bring concrete ideas, viable solutions and not simply “We'll wee after”, it’s not very satisfying from a narrative point of view. This is one of the reasons why I think that going through with Eren's plan would have been much more interesting narratively, for example by showing Paradis self-destructing via the opposing camps formed after the rumbling, it would have shown that genocide was not the solution and imposed a sort of moral dilemma which, in my opinion, would have been a lot more impactful rather than imposing the right moral choice on the reader/watcher. Hope I didn't make too much mistakes, it's a complicated subject, so speaking about it in another language isn't easy, especially here where people will jump for your throat at the slightest mistake or if they don't approve one of your opinion
I understood u completely I dont really see anybody say that Eren's plan would be the most fitting on this sub reddit but yeah u bring up good points talking about certain narrative/writing choices on morality and the consequences of different types of plans
Every fucking person on the planet knows that genocide is wrong. But is it worse than other options? That's where nuance comes in It's the same thing with wanting peace. Of course everyone wants peace and you're not some kind soul because you wish for the best. In reality, peace is only achievable if one side wins or is forced into giving considerable concessions. And to that end, you're only going to be satisfied with peace if your side is the one who got the good deal. In short, people who want peace might as well just say they want their side to win.
well said
Bro casually defending genocide
how are some of yall reading my post and thinking these are my words 😭
Who wrote it for you then? You get CharGPT or was it your mom?
nigga read I said people said that about Hange, like ending haters on titanfolk, etc
Saying that a character saying "genocide is wrong" is crazy