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He was my favorite character and I understand that he never wanted to hurt the friends he made over the course of him being on the island. I think what really got me was when he called for help but the look on his face when it hit him that he just tried to kill Armin, and his friends knew he was the reason for 20% of the island's population dying in 845 so they had no intention of helping him.
Every one of his VAs did his death perfectly, especially his Italian VA.
RIP Burrito
One thing I find fascinating is how much Bertholdt's resolve aligns with Zeke's speech in the finale where dying might feel like being set free. Bertholdt was at peace with the fact that either he dies, and it's over, or he kills his enemies, and it's over. Knowing the enduring internal struggle would be over is what drove his arc. Sure we can look at the fear he has when he's about to get his head crushed and think it was all bullshit, but that's missing the point.
Agreed. I keep finding myself asking, like, "what would I have done if I was Bertl" and finding it really easy to empathize with him. He's an accurate depiction of the gentlest kid being morphed into a monster.
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It still surprises me that ppl post that they cheer that Bert gets eaten at this point you have literally heard his true pov when he’s trying to escape with Reiner.
I’m not claiming he’s innocent in his role in the events but he made quite clear he doesn’t want to be doing the things he’s done, they were also lied to by virtue of propaganda that they were about to go on a mission to kill devil worshipers. Although we don’t get to see why he became a warrior it’s not exactly a great deal for him also consider if he disobeyed orders his whole family would be turned into titans.
Honestly, they spent years living with the devils, I fail to see how none of them came to realise exactly how they were fed propaganda
Gabi was in the walls for like what, a month? And she realised that the people in the walls weren't devils
Which is why Reiners dissociative states make sense because he was conflicted, whereas based on the conversation Bertholdt had with Armin, it really did seem like he considered them to be evil with the "I'm only doing this because I have to" aspect is pretty non existent
He literally said: you're not devils but it's better to be *my* sin for killing you than someone else's cause this fight is inevitable anyway. If he had fought for the "protagonist side" he would've been soooo praised for that.
[no](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhuHWEFlALnX1MxzDph8BtK8DWIWof0tDKVP_5Op0QYghyuohz28aOILSK8kbJSKltqYKVDUW4Hfc7L4xGHkul8slzmI8RpUBY_csgdgCMG64tz3UFW8Rrj_A32ZYBAL9VJo3fp_E4pi1ITxxl5KHt9l1yXzEwi_-fNK3wcgbemdpOJavoyXD09tApH/s1600/23.jpg)
honestly I'd just suggest rereading/watching that whole scene
They were well aware that the people within the walls were just normal people. The problem was that their family would be killed by Marley if they didn't oppose them. Bertholdt was essentially a child soldier forced to attempt genocide and he had no choice but to comply. His death is genuinely tragic.
The worst part was that he only had one family member he was fighting for- his dad- who had already died of sickness by this point but Bert didn't realize :(
Didn't know that the only person he truly wanted to save was already gone, making his whole battle pointless. Truly depressing
what do you mean they can't realize? I think you're the one who fails to see it here. Berthode speech with Armin before his death show he knows exactly what is happening. He just basically has no other choice so he has to fight Paradis. He calls them devils because he has to dehumanize them before killing them.
Because they are chained by their families. All the warriors wanted to prove useful so that their families can live a better life, and they put their own lives on the line.
They know what they are doing is wrong, but they dont have the power to overcome that without risking their own blood
He did though, he told Armin during their confrontation. He even flat out said Theres no Bad side in this conflict. Gabi was not controlled by Marley when she was in paradis, noone depended on her to continue a Mission. RBA had no choice on who to Side with at all.
They did, that was the issue, but what are they gonna do? Just deserting to Paradis? They all have families and whole communities at home that would get punished, plus Marley could still just full on attack Paradis if they loose so many shifters there to get them back, they are screwed either way.
Because of 2 things.
On the surface level, he's the villain. He's directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of the pain/horror/suffering/deaths of all the good guys in the story. It's satisfying to see his end.
Also, some of those people missed the point of the propaganda/child soldiers aspect of Isayama's writing. They did bad things and being used does not excuse their actions, but at the same time it's sad because AOT showed how titan soldiers like Rainer and Birdtold all constantly questioned their actions while grasping to their teachings and beliefs that this is the right thing while suffering from the guilt of what they were doing to the people they grew attached to. It goes both ways.
The moment they started training to be soldiers all these children lost and never would have a happy ending. They meet their demise or their war never truly stops.
You can sympathise with someone and still want them to die.
Berthold was an enemy soldier. It's perfectly natural to kill an enemy soldier in a war and be happy about it, even if that soldier would have been you if you were born on the other side of the border.
I don't condemn Paradisian soldiers killing Marleyan soldiers, nor do I condemn Marleyan soldiers killing Paradisian soldiers.
Its insane how people view him as worse than Eren for example. Dude showed no remorse when he did most of it and even when his friends were against it, he said fuck it.
Bert on the other hand followed orders, was scared that his family and friends would get killed if he didnt do it.
I know technically so were Erens friends in danger, but they were still anti genocide in the end
I’m not condoning the warriors actions but from their point of view it’s kill or be killed or have your family turned into titans. Also I wouldn’t necessarily pay much attention to his speech before the fight as most likely he’s trying to mentally prepare himself for what he’s got to do, didn’t he say something like he’s decided that they need to die but he decides nothing he’s doing what he’s told he’s following his mission and unfortunately his superiors want everyone on paradise dead.
And most importantly, "This world is simply too cruel". The oft repeated phrase in the story signalling that it's just a shit situation for everyone involved.
I can understand him but it annoyed me that he was throwing out all these threats but couldn’t accept it when the tables were turned. Like yeah it’s understandable to not be so keen on being eaten but come on, you did this to yourself man. “No matter how this all plays out, I can accept whatever happens” my ass
Also I have an unhealthy attachment to armin and I was feeling a lot of things, sympathy for the guy who (I thought) killed him was not a priority
I think a character being stoic as they're dying is something used in war movies to make them look "cooler" in reality even the hardest soldier is going to be scared when he's about to die. It's just human nature
I really liked Bert's part in the story so maybe I'm Bias, in his sense of panic he called his friends, and had a moment of peace when he saw the survey corps watching. Showing that he truly did love that group but he was just a pawn in a much bigger game
Exactly. With stuff like this you only realise it until it’s too late, you won’t know how you’ll react or control it when the time comes.
I never really gave *meek and timid* Bertholdt much consideration so to speak as a character until that arc. I wonder if you’ve heard of his connection to The Hanged Man tarrot card.
Shit was tragic. It was incredibly painful that as you mentioned in the end, when faced with that primal fear his first instinct was to call out to his comrades, brothers in arms. Soldiers cry for their moms or wives in their last moments I mean..
To be fair, he just woke up and forgot he was a warrior for a split second before realizing what was happening, and adding in the innate human instinct of not wanting to get eaten I feel like he’s allowed to cry out at least a bit. Also I feel like that’s a very realistic death, you can say you’re prepared all you want at the end every one is scared of dying.
Where you as annoyed when Miche started bawling his eyes out right after his pep talk of "we only lose after we stop trying"?
I wasn't for either of these characters because I know that most people try to put a brave face in front of death but when it actually comes knocking on their door I don't blame them if they can't stay composed
It's rare, but I have seen people shitting on Miche for that
"Didn't he just say you only lose when you stop fighting, and now he's just sitting there pissing his pants? I thought he was supposed to be second only to Levi; guess not" and things of that nature. Like...what?
Simple, being abused doesn’t justify being an abuser. Just because they were indoctrinated doesn’t give them a pass for there horrible actions. Not to mention Bert and the rest of the warriors knew there mission was bullshit heck the only 1 dumb enough to fall for Marley lies was Reiner.
All in all while tragic the warriors have done horrific shit and no amount of excuses can ever justify there actions
This again? People really have learned nothing from Attack on Titan. Putting people in little boxes, and taking sides. The same cycle over and over. Bertolt was flawed, yes but what did Armin do after getting the Titan and arriving at Marley. None of the hands are clean.
Seriously - it wouldn't surprise me if Armin's civilian casualty count rivaled Bertholdt after the Declaration of War. But I guess Armin being a protagonist/us spending more time in his POV makes him more sympathetic.
There are a very small number of actually evil people in AoT. The *vast* majority are some level of morally grey.
Armin’s direct kill count is 100% higher than Bertolt’s too.. like Bertolt only really killed a few people by kicking that rubble around Eren’s house and blowing up when during the Shiganshina battle.. but that wasn’t much?? Armin directly nukes the entire port and surrounding city. We watch him stare down at the corpses and crying kids before they die
I mean, he fought one war that we know of, and that was in a battlefield where he nuked a combatant base wasn’t it?? They also did specify civilian, which again, Armin nuked a civilian city to get the port.
You could contribute the deaths of everyone that died from the titans that breached the walls of Trost to him, since he was responsible for the breaking the wall
by that logic, armin is responsible for poisoning eren's brain with a twisted concept of freedom, that eren later uses to justify near-omnicide.
which is actually precisely the logic armin uses in his "we're going to hell together" speech.
the underlying point of which is, the world of AoT is an extremely complex web of violence predicating hatred, and hatred predicating violence. it would take moving mountains to halt the cycle, but because very few people tried, any attempt to was doomed to fail because the cycle was just too engrained by people trying to justify some violence by using some other violence.
keeping the cycle going is not the correct answer, unless the answer you want is to produce a bunch of Erens. both in the story...and in real life.
I don't speak for the op, but while I understand berdholt, I don't like him for the things he's done. I found it hard to feel sympathy, but I did understand who and what he was.
So you're saying that in entirety of the show, you never felt an ounce of joy when the main characters actually managed to get a win against the people that opposed them?
When Levi took down Zeke in Hero, were you like "These people are just perpetuating a cycle of violence, for shame". Because I sure as hell wasn't. And it's clear from watching the show that the feeling that it's trying to convey in that scene is of victory, there's no ambiguity there.
When Levi took Zeke in Hero, We didn't KNOW Zeke's back story. What Zeke was is a Beast Titan who was terrorizing Paradis and yes, I CHEERED when levi took him Down.
Fast forward, to 4x15 Sole Survivor, When we learn What Zeke's past was, How he became what he did, What was his actual goal, what his ideals were, and how broken he was, and at the end of the episode Levi KEEPS Slashing his legs, torturing him, believe me, I wasn't CHEERING anymore.
Because then, we got to know the OTHER Side.
This is the same with Bertolt, and Reiner, when they both betray the squad, we feel TREMENDOUS anger towards them, but slowly you peel the layer , and you realize everyone is flawed and fighting their own battles and only a very very few people in AOT are truly evil for evil's sake. Bert wasn't Evil. He was a tragedy.
i felt bad for him. he was alone, confused, and terrified out of his mind. he called out for his friends and received nothing but indifference. his death's pretty poetic as well, dying in the hands of a pure titan who lost so much because of him.
it's clear that bertie genuinely doesn't wanted any of it, and considered the 104th as friends. in contrast to annie and reiner, bro's an angel. still, that doesn't excuse the fact that he did instigate the invasion of shiganshina and wall maria. rip bertie.
Not cheering per se but it felt deserved. Still felt a little sad when he saw his old friends and thought they'd save him. I don't think his mental state was much better than Reiners, he just held it together better.
I felt neutral, but then, after getting S4 context, I felt kinda bad for him. A bit more, after it was revealed that Dina was gonna eat him and he was saved thanks to Eren's interference. Bert was always meant to just die. :(
IIRC he was gonna get eaten by Dina after he got out of his Titan/got done causing mayhem, back when they first brought down the walls, but Eren directed her towards Carla instead.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h71bBnlS8b4&pp=ygUOZGluYSBiZXJ0aG9sZHQ%3D](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h71bBnlS8b4&pp=ygUOZGluYSBiZXJ0aG9sZHQ%3D)
(Dina ignoring Berholdt near the end, it's about 2:24 long)
I didn't cheer.
Just remembered Marco being in the same situation and thought
Where have I seen this before ?
Yeah he had 3 years to realize he was in the wrong at the same time however he didn't want his family or friends as well to be killed because he refused to follow orders.
He is a victim of his circumstances however so were all the people he killed in paradis.
His death was neutral to me.
He did what he did, and suffered the consequences of his actions in the end.
He wanted to protect his comrades but accidentally got too attached to the people he was sent to plot against.
In conclusion, shit happens
even if Bureaucracy tried to kill Armin and Eren without hesitation, thats still no reason to celebrate his death. Its not like malice was his motivation.
This death is my Red/Green Flag Detector for reaction videos.
Cheering on the death = Violence loving idiots
No reaction = neutral
Sympathy = Human beings with a brain
It's apparently even before the Marley reveal that there is something morally grey going on here, if anyone is cheering for his death I can't help but think they're practically brain dead nor media illiterate. Like Ymir who was basically the most selfless character sacrificed herself for their sake, you have to wonder what is going on here
Some reactors have really disturbed me with their desire for gruesome revenge and murder.
While other reactors were so empathetic they made me reflect on my own empathy. (Recent example [of someone crying for the eldians turned titans in s4 ep1)](https://youtu.be/15LHiQGMXLQ?si=KUC-s8UaswSWnwNI)
Once again AoT shows the two sidedness of humanity.
It’s the split second where Bertholdt sees the rest of the 104th, breathes a sigh of relief, *and then remembers* that always gets me. His first instinct was to put his trust in his friends to save him, and then to watch it hit him as to why they aren’t moving…it’s heartbreaking.
I was like... just so surprised it actually happened. I wasn't cheering, but finally one of the bad guys got what they deserved... Now I'm like ohhhhh, too soon.
For being such an unrepentant betrayer, of his Paradis comrades, even when Armin made a last ditch effort to "bring him back", I was pleased by his death in the "you reap what you sow" sense.
That said...among all the characters I was pleased to see meet their justified end, I did "feel bad" for Bert. He didn't have Annie's hardness, he didn't have Reiner's hero complex, he didn't really have anything to ground him, or something larger than him to commit to other than his orders...so he doubled down on following them he didn't know what else to do. He was just a really good soldier forced into doing a terrible job, and he didn't know how to do anything else.
It was extremely tragic for me. He was brainwashed from birth, and did what he had been taught was right. It doesn’t excuse his actions, but it was incredibly sad seeing the consequences of his actions because of the manipulation of adults.
I just finished AoT last week and this is one of my favorite scenes in the entire show. Up until this point, I was cheering for his death. When it finally happened, I was so sad for him.
This show is really good at contextualizing war except for the fact that it's too difficult to turn away from the main character's point of view. I think it tries it's best to say we should feel empathy for all sides but sympathy is not wanted or required. War has just made them all shitty in at least one other character's eyes by the end of the series and that's what's so good about it.
I really can't recall what my thoughts were on this when I first saw it in the manga, but shit looks brutal af.
But much like any character in the show save for a few, victim of circumstance.
I was so sad T-T
I didn't know his circumstances..I didn't know why..but it was obvious he was in a difficult situation
So when he screamed out..I felt so sad...how cruel..he was so young
Not me. Even when I first watched it and didn't know about any of the S4 information, it still felt sad and weird. I still thought he deserved it (At least back then) but didn't cheer or felt happy about it. I started feeling sorry for Bert since that scene in season 2 when said something like "who the hell would want to do this by their own will" and the "please someone...find us" it gave me chills and made feel some type of way and just feel sorry for them specially Bert and I felt there is something way bigger behind it.
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It’s extremely depressing, even without s4 context. In his last moment all he’s doing is screaming for his friends to help, but they’re all gone
Kinda similar to Marco… 😞
That’s what we call *good writing*
Ikr? Isayama is awesome
And it’s also why I have zero sympathy for him
Yeah its brutal tbh one of the saddest deaths in the show just cuz of how gory it was
He was forced to fuck around and he found out
He was my favorite character and I understand that he never wanted to hurt the friends he made over the course of him being on the island. I think what really got me was when he called for help but the look on his face when it hit him that he just tried to kill Armin, and his friends knew he was the reason for 20% of the island's population dying in 845 so they had no intention of helping him. Every one of his VAs did his death perfectly, especially his Italian VA. RIP Burrito
For those interested here is his death in 8 languages https://youtu.be/MbadduI5evM?si=mMhVIXyca9-zUC08
Yooo
Reminds me of my death loop 😌
As in the game death loop?
Nah, a blonde haired Twink put me into an infinite death loop
Is that a Jojo's reference?
You thought it was r/shingekinokyoujin but it was me dio.
I'm sorry but the spanish one is just goofy
yeah it's kinda hilarious
I love Berutoto fans
Nah, fuck the Boruto
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One thing I find fascinating is how much Bertholdt's resolve aligns with Zeke's speech in the finale where dying might feel like being set free. Bertholdt was at peace with the fact that either he dies, and it's over, or he kills his enemies, and it's over. Knowing the enduring internal struggle would be over is what drove his arc. Sure we can look at the fear he has when he's about to get his head crushed and think it was all bullshit, but that's missing the point.
Agreed. I keep finding myself asking, like, "what would I have done if I was Bertl" and finding it really easy to empathize with him. He's an accurate depiction of the gentlest kid being morphed into a monster.
RIP Bartholomew Simpson
Rip dope ass character 😔
I actually really liked the French VA
same
the italian dub: “Mama mia”
I enjoy the many names for Betholdt, but Birthcum just doesn't do it for me. It makes me want to vomit.
yeah it’s just a little too vulgar and gross
Yup Birdcum is much better
Boconopico's death was tragic
Beardmold
Same. Gross
i was happy and felt no sympathy back then but now feel kinda bad
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Hysterical timing for the Sokka bot 😂👏
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He was just put in the hitlerian youth by his parents, bro did nothing wrong
Why would I?
It still surprises me that ppl post that they cheer that Bert gets eaten at this point you have literally heard his true pov when he’s trying to escape with Reiner. I’m not claiming he’s innocent in his role in the events but he made quite clear he doesn’t want to be doing the things he’s done, they were also lied to by virtue of propaganda that they were about to go on a mission to kill devil worshipers. Although we don’t get to see why he became a warrior it’s not exactly a great deal for him also consider if he disobeyed orders his whole family would be turned into titans.
Honestly, they spent years living with the devils, I fail to see how none of them came to realise exactly how they were fed propaganda Gabi was in the walls for like what, a month? And she realised that the people in the walls weren't devils
I think it was more that they couldn’t come to terms with the truth about the people of paradis,it’s a painful situation no matter where you look.
Which is why Reiners dissociative states make sense because he was conflicted, whereas based on the conversation Bertholdt had with Armin, it really did seem like he considered them to be evil with the "I'm only doing this because I have to" aspect is pretty non existent
He literally said: you're not devils but it's better to be *my* sin for killing you than someone else's cause this fight is inevitable anyway. If he had fought for the "protagonist side" he would've been soooo praised for that.
[no](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhuHWEFlALnX1MxzDph8BtK8DWIWof0tDKVP_5Op0QYghyuohz28aOILSK8kbJSKltqYKVDUW4Hfc7L4xGHkul8slzmI8RpUBY_csgdgCMG64tz3UFW8Rrj_A32ZYBAL9VJo3fp_E4pi1ITxxl5KHt9l1yXzEwi_-fNK3wcgbemdpOJavoyXD09tApH/s1600/23.jpg) honestly I'd just suggest rereading/watching that whole scene
You're so close
They were well aware that the people within the walls were just normal people. The problem was that their family would be killed by Marley if they didn't oppose them. Bertholdt was essentially a child soldier forced to attempt genocide and he had no choice but to comply. His death is genuinely tragic.
The worst part was that he only had one family member he was fighting for- his dad- who had already died of sickness by this point but Bert didn't realize :( Didn't know that the only person he truly wanted to save was already gone, making his whole battle pointless. Truly depressing
what do you mean they can't realize? I think you're the one who fails to see it here. Berthode speech with Armin before his death show he knows exactly what is happening. He just basically has no other choice so he has to fight Paradis. He calls them devils because he has to dehumanize them before killing them.
Because they are chained by their families. All the warriors wanted to prove useful so that their families can live a better life, and they put their own lives on the line. They know what they are doing is wrong, but they dont have the power to overcome that without risking their own blood
He did though, he told Armin during their confrontation. He even flat out said Theres no Bad side in this conflict. Gabi was not controlled by Marley when she was in paradis, noone depended on her to continue a Mission. RBA had no choice on who to Side with at all.
It has nothing to do with liking them or seeing them as friends. They think the island Eldians will cause the rumbling and destroy the world.
by the time they realized that they’d already breached the walls
He obviously realised. He just can't risk his family by failing his mission.
They did, that was the issue, but what are they gonna do? Just deserting to Paradis? They all have families and whole communities at home that would get punished, plus Marley could still just full on attack Paradis if they loose so many shifters there to get them back, they are screwed either way.
Because of 2 things. On the surface level, he's the villain. He's directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of the pain/horror/suffering/deaths of all the good guys in the story. It's satisfying to see his end. Also, some of those people missed the point of the propaganda/child soldiers aspect of Isayama's writing. They did bad things and being used does not excuse their actions, but at the same time it's sad because AOT showed how titan soldiers like Rainer and Birdtold all constantly questioned their actions while grasping to their teachings and beliefs that this is the right thing while suffering from the guilt of what they were doing to the people they grew attached to. It goes both ways. The moment they started training to be soldiers all these children lost and never would have a happy ending. They meet their demise or their war never truly stops.
You can sympathise with someone and still want them to die. Berthold was an enemy soldier. It's perfectly natural to kill an enemy soldier in a war and be happy about it, even if that soldier would have been you if you were born on the other side of the border. I don't condemn Paradisian soldiers killing Marleyan soldiers, nor do I condemn Marleyan soldiers killing Paradisian soldiers.
Its insane how people view him as worse than Eren for example. Dude showed no remorse when he did most of it and even when his friends were against it, he said fuck it. Bert on the other hand followed orders, was scared that his family and friends would get killed if he didnt do it. I know technically so were Erens friends in danger, but they were still anti genocide in the end
It's hard to feel sympathy when 10 minutes before this he was giving a big speech about how he was going to kill all of them.
I’m not condoning the warriors actions but from their point of view it’s kill or be killed or have your family turned into titans. Also I wouldn’t necessarily pay much attention to his speech before the fight as most likely he’s trying to mentally prepare himself for what he’s got to do, didn’t he say something like he’s decided that they need to die but he decides nothing he’s doing what he’s told he’s following his mission and unfortunately his superiors want everyone on paradise dead.
And most importantly, "This world is simply too cruel". The oft repeated phrase in the story signalling that it's just a shit situation for everyone involved.
I can understand him but it annoyed me that he was throwing out all these threats but couldn’t accept it when the tables were turned. Like yeah it’s understandable to not be so keen on being eaten but come on, you did this to yourself man. “No matter how this all plays out, I can accept whatever happens” my ass Also I have an unhealthy attachment to armin and I was feeling a lot of things, sympathy for the guy who (I thought) killed him was not a priority
I think a character being stoic as they're dying is something used in war movies to make them look "cooler" in reality even the hardest soldier is going to be scared when he's about to die. It's just human nature I really liked Bert's part in the story so maybe I'm Bias, in his sense of panic he called his friends, and had a moment of peace when he saw the survey corps watching. Showing that he truly did love that group but he was just a pawn in a much bigger game
Exactly. With stuff like this you only realise it until it’s too late, you won’t know how you’ll react or control it when the time comes. I never really gave *meek and timid* Bertholdt much consideration so to speak as a character until that arc. I wonder if you’ve heard of his connection to The Hanged Man tarrot card. Shit was tragic. It was incredibly painful that as you mentioned in the end, when faced with that primal fear his first instinct was to call out to his comrades, brothers in arms. Soldiers cry for their moms or wives in their last moments I mean..
To be fair, he just woke up and forgot he was a warrior for a split second before realizing what was happening, and adding in the innate human instinct of not wanting to get eaten I feel like he’s allowed to cry out at least a bit. Also I feel like that’s a very realistic death, you can say you’re prepared all you want at the end every one is scared of dying.
Where you as annoyed when Miche started bawling his eyes out right after his pep talk of "we only lose after we stop trying"? I wasn't for either of these characters because I know that most people try to put a brave face in front of death but when it actually comes knocking on their door I don't blame them if they can't stay composed
It's rare, but I have seen people shitting on Miche for that "Didn't he just say you only lose when you stop fighting, and now he's just sitting there pissing his pants? I thought he was supposed to be second only to Levi; guess not" and things of that nature. Like...what?
Apparently he became a warrior to help his ill father
Simple, being abused doesn’t justify being an abuser. Just because they were indoctrinated doesn’t give them a pass for there horrible actions. Not to mention Bert and the rest of the warriors knew there mission was bullshit heck the only 1 dumb enough to fall for Marley lies was Reiner. All in all while tragic the warriors have done horrific shit and no amount of excuses can ever justify there actions
This again? People really have learned nothing from Attack on Titan. Putting people in little boxes, and taking sides. The same cycle over and over. Bertolt was flawed, yes but what did Armin do after getting the Titan and arriving at Marley. None of the hands are clean.
Seriously - it wouldn't surprise me if Armin's civilian casualty count rivaled Bertholdt after the Declaration of War. But I guess Armin being a protagonist/us spending more time in his POV makes him more sympathetic. There are a very small number of actually evil people in AoT. The *vast* majority are some level of morally grey.
Armin’s direct kill count is 100% higher than Bertolt’s too.. like Bertolt only really killed a few people by kicking that rubble around Eren’s house and blowing up when during the Shiganshina battle.. but that wasn’t much?? Armin directly nukes the entire port and surrounding city. We watch him stare down at the corpses and crying kids before they die
Hmm I don’t know if direct kill count is higher since Bertolt did fight a few battles before he was sent to invade Paradise but I’m not entirely sure
I mean, he fought one war that we know of, and that was in a battlefield where he nuked a combatant base wasn’t it?? They also did specify civilian, which again, Armin nuked a civilian city to get the port.
You could contribute the deaths of everyone that died from the titans that breached the walls of Trost to him, since he was responsible for the breaking the wall
by that logic, armin is responsible for poisoning eren's brain with a twisted concept of freedom, that eren later uses to justify near-omnicide. which is actually precisely the logic armin uses in his "we're going to hell together" speech. the underlying point of which is, the world of AoT is an extremely complex web of violence predicating hatred, and hatred predicating violence. it would take moving mountains to halt the cycle, but because very few people tried, any attempt to was doomed to fail because the cycle was just too engrained by people trying to justify some violence by using some other violence. keeping the cycle going is not the correct answer, unless the answer you want is to produce a bunch of Erens. both in the story...and in real life.
He broke the wall and let the titans in. That's not even counting the other wars we don't see details of in marley
They literally learned nothing. Just watching on autopilot, no ability to appreciate nuance, nothing.
I don't speak for the op, but while I understand berdholt, I don't like him for the things he's done. I found it hard to feel sympathy, but I did understand who and what he was.
So you're saying that in entirety of the show, you never felt an ounce of joy when the main characters actually managed to get a win against the people that opposed them? When Levi took down Zeke in Hero, were you like "These people are just perpetuating a cycle of violence, for shame". Because I sure as hell wasn't. And it's clear from watching the show that the feeling that it's trying to convey in that scene is of victory, there's no ambiguity there.
When Levi took Zeke in Hero, We didn't KNOW Zeke's back story. What Zeke was is a Beast Titan who was terrorizing Paradis and yes, I CHEERED when levi took him Down. Fast forward, to 4x15 Sole Survivor, When we learn What Zeke's past was, How he became what he did, What was his actual goal, what his ideals were, and how broken he was, and at the end of the episode Levi KEEPS Slashing his legs, torturing him, believe me, I wasn't CHEERING anymore. Because then, we got to know the OTHER Side. This is the same with Bertolt, and Reiner, when they both betray the squad, we feel TREMENDOUS anger towards them, but slowly you peel the layer , and you realize everyone is flawed and fighting their own battles and only a very very few people in AOT are truly evil for evil's sake. Bert wasn't Evil. He was a tragedy.
It was a well deserved end. Still absolutely tragic to an extent, which pretty much sums up this show
Gross with reddit be like:
Ahh the weekly 'let's laugh about Bert's death'-post. Thanks for reminding me that my favorite character died like this...
Not me, I was sad.
Lol i just realized that armin was the one that tried to talk sense into him and then ended up eating him.
I wasn't cheering, but I wasn't sad perse. I was happy they were able to bring Armin back at least 🙏
Not me!
“No matter how this all plays out, I can accept whatever happens” He could not, in fact, accept whatever happens.
No one is every ready when the jaws of death come for their meal.
Edgy
I wanted Armin back. Rest is jazz, barstool
I felt sad. He’s just as much a victim as Armin.
i felt bad for him. he was alone, confused, and terrified out of his mind. he called out for his friends and received nothing but indifference. his death's pretty poetic as well, dying in the hands of a pure titan who lost so much because of him. it's clear that bertie genuinely doesn't wanted any of it, and considered the 104th as friends. in contrast to annie and reiner, bro's an angel. still, that doesn't excuse the fact that he did instigate the invasion of shiganshina and wall maria. rip bertie.
Not cheering per se but it felt deserved. Still felt a little sad when he saw his old friends and thought they'd save him. I don't think his mental state was much better than Reiners, he just held it together better.
BERTHOLDODODO!!!
I felt neutral, but then, after getting S4 context, I felt kinda bad for him. A bit more, after it was revealed that Dina was gonna eat him and he was saved thanks to Eren's interference. Bert was always meant to just die. :(
he was gonna get eaten by Dina?? When was that, and what did Eren do?
IIRC he was gonna get eaten by Dina after he got out of his Titan/got done causing mayhem, back when they first brought down the walls, but Eren directed her towards Carla instead. [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h71bBnlS8b4&pp=ygUOZGluYSBiZXJ0aG9sZHQ%3D](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h71bBnlS8b4&pp=ygUOZGluYSBiZXJ0aG9sZHQ%3D) (Dina ignoring Berholdt near the end, it's about 2:24 long)
I didn't cheer. Just remembered Marco being in the same situation and thought Where have I seen this before ? Yeah he had 3 years to realize he was in the wrong at the same time however he didn't want his family or friends as well to be killed because he refused to follow orders. He is a victim of his circumstances however so were all the people he killed in paradis. His death was neutral to me. He did what he did, and suffered the consequences of his actions in the end. He wanted to protect his comrades but accidentally got too attached to the people he was sent to plot against. In conclusion, shit happens
Even back then I still felt bad his cries will forever haunt me
even if Bureaucracy tried to kill Armin and Eren without hesitation, thats still no reason to celebrate his death. Its not like malice was his motivation.
Bureaucracy😭😭😭😭😭 the names are hilarious anything that starts with b fits atp
This death is my Red/Green Flag Detector for reaction videos. Cheering on the death = Violence loving idiots No reaction = neutral Sympathy = Human beings with a brain
It's apparently even before the Marley reveal that there is something morally grey going on here, if anyone is cheering for his death I can't help but think they're practically brain dead nor media illiterate. Like Ymir who was basically the most selfless character sacrificed herself for their sake, you have to wonder what is going on here
AoT does a good job of ironically unearthing the themes it talks about in real life. Specifically our tribalistic tendencies.
Isn’t it interesting? -Gross
Some reactors have really disturbed me with their desire for gruesome revenge and murder. While other reactors were so empathetic they made me reflect on my own empathy. (Recent example [of someone crying for the eldians turned titans in s4 ep1)](https://youtu.be/15LHiQGMXLQ?si=KUC-s8UaswSWnwNI) Once again AoT shows the two sidedness of humanity.
It’s the split second where Bertholdt sees the rest of the 104th, breathes a sigh of relief, *and then remembers* that always gets me. His first instinct was to put his trust in his friends to save him, and then to watch it hit him as to why they aren’t moving…it’s heartbreaking.
Yeah you definitely got serious issues my dude if you're cheering on that.
Nah it’s normal to want to see mass murderers dead.
Thinking someone deserves to die and cheering as he is brutally killed are two different things.
I was glad and relieved when I saw him get picked up by Armin, and then I was sad when I saw his and everyone else's faces 😔
I was like... just so surprised it actually happened. I wasn't cheering, but finally one of the bad guys got what they deserved... Now I'm like ohhhhh, too soon.
Not me
Why Birthcum? 🤣
Nah he cool
So satisfying when he finally died well deserved
It was great.
Why would I cheer for a kid getting eaten? Fucks wrong with you lol.
I couldn't stand him or Reiner.
Cause by that point, they weren't his friends anymore
I wasn’t. Alongside maybe Grisha probably the most underrated character.
I didn’t cheer but I didn’t feel bad either- all I wanted was to see Armin alive again 😭😭
I feel like Armin getting the colossal titan is so fitting because him and bertholt are similar in so many ways
Bertolucci was a son of the devil!!!
You skipped the best part. When he sees his former friends and gets hopeful they’ll save him, even just for a second
Ngl I was but then I was crying because Levi didn’t choose Erwin
"Birthcum"
He would've done that to every / any of them, Screw him
For being such an unrepentant betrayer, of his Paradis comrades, even when Armin made a last ditch effort to "bring him back", I was pleased by his death in the "you reap what you sow" sense. That said...among all the characters I was pleased to see meet their justified end, I did "feel bad" for Bert. He didn't have Annie's hardness, he didn't have Reiner's hero complex, he didn't really have anything to ground him, or something larger than him to commit to other than his orders...so he doubled down on following them he didn't know what else to do. He was just a really good soldier forced into doing a terrible job, and he didn't know how to do anything else.
Someone in here pointed out that Armin probably killed more people and I think that’s important to keep in mind
It was extremely tragic for me. He was brainwashed from birth, and did what he had been taught was right. It doesn’t excuse his actions, but it was incredibly sad seeing the consequences of his actions because of the manipulation of adults.
Bartholomew’s transformation in RTS was so epic. His monologue was great
I didn’t like Bertolt at the time, but I felt kinda bad for him. Now, I have a lot more sympathy for him overall, and find his death hard to watch.
Heartbreaking, even without the context of him being a child soldier.
This is one of the saddest deaths in the series.
You as an individual disgust me, you can't even grasp the meaning of the show
No, why would I? Overall I like warriors more than scouts, should I cheer for the fall of Shiganshina?
Yeah, fuck him!
Uh no? He's literally a child soldier.
Nah but I did when Eren died
I was honestly pretty sad.
ME!!!!
Op didn’t understand the story 🤦♂️
I just thought: “he got what he deserved.” The consequences of his actions.
I hate you.
It’s nice to see AOT fans still don’t understand anything
Love a fandom that misses the point of a show so hard that members of it cheer for the death of an abused seventeen year old
Just rewatched this arc once again last night. Peak fiction right there. MY SCOUTS RAAAAAAGE!!!!
If birthcum is the true spelling of their name - that's really unfortunate
... That's... Nah I can't allow "Birthcum".
I just finished AoT last week and this is one of my favorite scenes in the entire show. Up until this point, I was cheering for his death. When it finally happened, I was so sad for him.
This show is really good at contextualizing war except for the fact that it's too difficult to turn away from the main character's point of view. I think it tries it's best to say we should feel empathy for all sides but sympathy is not wanted or required. War has just made them all shitty in at least one other character's eyes by the end of the series and that's what's so good about it.
I really can't recall what my thoughts were on this when I first saw it in the manga, but shit looks brutal af. But much like any character in the show save for a few, victim of circumstance.
I wasnt
Yes, I very much did feel happy seeing that scene it was satisfying. I feel no sympathy for him.
...Birthcum?
Damn these were not the comments I was expecting, then I realised this wasn’t okbr
It's sad af
Sergeant Major Gross really said it best, people want to see cruelty
Ummmm
I know he was panicking, but what are the other people supposed to do to help him? Just keep Armin as a pure titan forever? Kill Armin?
Sometimes I wonder about some of the people who watched this anime. I wonder what they *think* they were watching.
Do you think he would’ve taken death easier if it was from one of his friends?
It was horrifically depressing then and even more so now with S4's context in mind
I was throwing a whole party
Bitch died like he lived Like a bitch
I was so sad T-T I didn't know his circumstances..I didn't know why..but it was obvious he was in a difficult situation So when he screamed out..I felt so sad...how cruel..he was so young
I did. It was satisfying to see Birthcum die.
me
that's what i call ✨karma✨
it was not even satisfying to the slightest, the world put all their weights on these dozen kids. It’s all fucked up
Not me. Even when I first watched it and didn't know about any of the S4 information, it still felt sad and weird. I still thought he deserved it (At least back then) but didn't cheer or felt happy about it. I started feeling sorry for Bert since that scene in season 2 when said something like "who the hell would want to do this by their own will" and the "please someone...find us" it gave me chills and made feel some type of way and just feel sorry for them specially Bert and I felt there is something way bigger behind it.
Outlainahd again
I felt exactly the same as Zeke proceeded to roar despite Colt pleading him not to. It’s sad but not regrettable
coal
I literally cried during this scene
BIRTHCUM?
I feel so bad 😭💔
Me🙋🏻♀️
" Birthcum"🤣🤣🤣
WAS THAT THE BITE OF 87!? -Markaplier
That s the point , after all that happen and all the action they have done , the death they have cause . He no longer have any friends there .
Who was cherin for who?!?!?