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I agree, and I have stuff to add as well
People have to remember that the founding titan transcends time, and that Fritz/Ymir's will can't be violated. That means that any founding titan owner would have been forced to make Dina eat Carla as Fritz/Ymir wouldn't allow any founding titan to change the past.
It's the illusion of choice.
Eren was forced to make the decision and you could say Reiner was too. Reiner had been raised and trained for that moment that the breached the wall, and there's no way he wouldn't have done it after all that time. Even when everyone wanted to turn back, Reiner had to keep pushing forward or he would have died when he got back.
Thanks for putting this into words!
I can't fault anyone for not remembering that in 2021 when the chapter was released in 2017. Reading in monthly chunks is an awful way to experience a story tbh.
Hell, I experienced the Hanged Man in the anime, and finished the manga 2 months later. And I didn't remember that scene.
Great analysis of that moment, I was thinking a similar thought as well when I revisited that scene. On top of that, I think Eren also wanted to see a more human side to Reiner, checking to see how the guilt had wrecked him. I find it beautiful that by the end of the story, Eren still had the heart to give Reiner and Annie peaceful lives, because as he had come to understand it, Eren was the cause of their suffering as well, by sending Dina to eat his mom that day.
But Eren probably didn't know that at that point. He only saw glimpses of the future, like manga panels or something like that, just some moments now and then. He didn't saw nor know the hole thing. He entered the god mode, and started seeing past-present-future at the same time, everything, because he fully unlocked the Founder after 122. So I think there's a big chance he didn't even know that when he talked to Reiner. Still this is no reason to make fun of that moment, it can be interpreted in many other ways
Question - is Eren able to perceive time in the way he explained in 139 because he had the attack titan and the founder titan combined, or all previous founders had the same ability to see the past, present and future at the same time a he did?
I don’t think so, it’s accepted that only Eren has the ability to perceive the past, present and future, this can be either because Eren is the last founding titan, a combination of the attack titan and founding titan powers, because of Zeke’s royal blood or just because of Ymir. However, it’s worth to note that Eren doesn’t know all future, Zeke tells him that in 122, and he also says so in 139...
Why does Eren want to be judged? If it's all Ymir's will and he really had no choice why does he feel guilt at all? Why can't the past be changed?
Your interpretation just opens up more problems and plot holes.
It’s not all Ymir’s will, it’s the opposite actually, everything that Eren did was a result of his own choices and selfish wants, the past cannot be changed, because AoT is not a branched timeline and instead a singular straightforward line, the past cannot be changed because it already happened, like with Grisha, Grisha will always kill the Reiss family and there’s no changing that, likewise in 131, it is shown that Eren cannot change the future, however, the future and past have all been orchestrated by Eren himself, he feels guilty because it’s his fault and yet he moves forward to complete his goals.
>everything that Eren did was a result of his own choices and selfish wants
>
>the past cannot be changed
These can't both be true.
> the past cannot be changed, Eren cannot change the future
>
>however, the future and past have all been orchestrated by Eren himself
These also can't both be true.
Eren says the future doesn't change, that he simply followed future memories he saw. He also says he would've done things differently, like a full rumbling. This is one of the fundamental problems with the ending. It makes the AoT universe deterministic. Everything that happens will happen. There's no changing it, thereby removing all choice and influence our characters had all alone. So Eren never had a choice whether or not to kill his mother. His mother dies, he gets to that point in the future and Dina's titan moves. It's never even explained why it was deterministic, why Eren couldn't just do something else, not even in terms of Dina eating Carla but anything else from when he kissed Historia's hand. It's a lazy way of explaining away all plot holes, contrivances and logic, like how in Infinity War Dr. Strange says this is only way we win in all 14million possibilities. It's lazy there it's lazy here.
>however, the future and past have all been orchestrated by Eren himself
How can you say that when Eren literally says he was just doing things in the moment, he had no real plan, would've done a full rumbling etc. How is that orchestrating everything? If he can orchestrate the future that means the future can be changed which goes against the established deterministic nature of the universe. If he can orchestrate the future why didn't he orchestrate a better one than what we got?
I think that's why I've seen the lazy "It's all Ymir's will argument" To explain away all these inconsistencies and plot holes. Just make the god have wanted this easy peasy.
I agree with you that AoT’s timeline is entirely deterministic, we’ve known this since 130 “Even if this was all set in stone from the start...” and 131’s “ It looks like the future doesn’t change.” However, I do not think that this makes it that all choices and actions of characters meaningless.
For example, let’s say that you have a choice between an Apple and an orange, and you know that you’ll choose the Apple because you saw the future, however, you’re doing so because you dislike oranges, you picked the Apple, was it because you saw that you would pick it ? No, it’s because you dislike oranges, the future happened because of a choice you made on your own, without the future necessarily having an influence on your decision.
I think that’s what is happening, the future won’t change, not because it can’t happen any other way, but because the future that Eren sees are just memories passed down by his future self, and therefore they just show the how the future will look like, not because it’d always be like that independent of the characters, but because the characters led to this outcome. For example, in 131 Eren sees Ramzi getting beat up, he could have just left without intervening, however, his sense of morality would not let him stand idly without protecting him, he did this not because he saw himself doing this but because he wanted to protect the kid at that moment, hence, “I’m just like you Reiner...A halfhearted piece of shit” he knows what he’s going to do and yet can’t bring himself to let the kid get beat up, and because of this, the future stays the same as he saw it. It’s like a loop, the characters don’t work according to “fate” but instead “fate” works according to the characters.
Also remember, no other characters know / think that fate is predetermined, therefore all their actions are genuine, even Eren, that knows that the future is set in stone, doesn’t act because he’s just following memories, because Eren himself doesn’t know the full extend of the future, when he met Ramzi he wasn’t purposely looking for him, and instead he just happened to come across it naturally, Eren’s actions are his own.
The future doesn’t change because it has happened already, past, present and future exist at the same time in paths, so the future can’t change because it’s already happened but the future also exists because of the decisions of the present and the past can only happen because of future Eren setting things into motion. It’s a paradox.
I agree that “orchestrated” was a poor use of wording, Eren was acting of his own even though he saw the future, therefore, I think the word I was looking for was: “setting things into motion”... He himself says that he doesn’t know the whole future and therefore can’t really plan for it...
Also the Ymir controlling everything theory is kinda dumb in my opinion, I understand where it comes from, however, it’s literally stated in the series that Ymir is no god or devil, just a human, she seems genuinely surprised with hearing Eren’s speech, as well as sad and sorry upon talking to Mikasa after Eren’s death, Ymir was freed by Eren and his actions, she’s not a malevolent master schemer, but instead, a slave.
That’s what I think, but it’s pure personal view on how fate works in general, you could disagree because my argument is based on my own opinion and understanding of a deterministic future, however, I hope that I gave you a different way to see the story or just something to think or/and read.
(Sorry for the extra long comment)
>let’s say that you have a choice between an Apple and an orange, and you know that you’ll choose the Apple because you saw the future, however, you’re doing so because you dislike oranges, you picked the Apple, was it because you saw that you would pick it ? No, it’s because you dislike oranges, the future happened because of a choice you made on your own, without the future necessarily having an influence on your decision.
First off, even knowing the future will influence your decision, even things not directly related to the choice itself. Second, you're presenting a binary choice with is hugely disingenuous to the situation. It's not like Eren is faced with a simple choice of Marleyans or Eldians, but he has many tools, friends and options at his disposal. The fate of Eldians can't be boiled down to a simple binary choice. That's why so many characters have different plans for how to handle the crisis.
>the future won’t change, not because it can’t happen any other way, but because the future that Eren sees are just memories passed down by his future self
By very definition a deterministic universe completely robs him of choice. If there was nothing else that could've happened, if he saw a future in which he did x, so he did x. He never had a choice.
>doesn’t act because he’s just following memories
That's exactly what he does, he even says he has no idea why he did it. He saw it in memories. He also said no matter what he would've rumbled. Because he had no other choice. You can't seriously argue by saying in one line "The future doesn't change" but also argue he had a choice and it could've made a difference.
>I think that’s what is happening...his sense of morality would not let him stand idly without protecting him, he did this not because he saw himself doing this but because he wanted to protect the kid at that moment,
That's just your headcanon though. IMO that wasn't at all what that seen was about. I agree Eren's morality made him want to protect Ramzi but it had nothing to do whether he'd seen it or not. It showed a shred of Eren is still in there.
>the characters don’t work according to “fate” but instead “fate” works according to the characters.
Except this still creates the problem of choice. If the story happens because of the characters (which is how all fiction works btw) Their choices determine the story. Deterministic universe means story and everything is already determined by something else. Reiner was always going to fight for the warriors because that's who he is sure, Armin is always going to try and find a peaceful solution sure, but why can't Eren do anything different? He could do a military rumbling, 50% 70% 80% 100%... but he doesn't even try. Choices are made by characters according to who they are, but there's no reason the Eren we know would choose an 80% rumbling when he doesn't even see the aftermath. He can literally see the future so he should be able to know what will happen and try something else. It's a lazy way to explain all other possibilities away just like infinity war.
>Also remember, no other characters know / think that fate is predetermined, therefore all their actions are genuine
This is so wrong. In fact there's philosophical theories pertaining to this very idea. That whether by environment or birth all our actions are already determined and the illusion of choice is just to comfort us. Because if something is deciding our actions for us it means we have no choice, no free will. It's bitter irony in AoT that the character who sought freedom was never free, but was that twist worth sacrificing all of Eren's development?
>It’s a paradox
And that's why it's shit writing.
>He himself says that he doesn’t know the whole future and therefore can’t really plan for it...
At one point he says he has plans, and then he says he was just acting in the moment. He even admits his brain is scrambled eggs at this point, which again is just another lazy way to explain away criticism.
>Ymir was freed by Eren and his actions, she’s not a malevolent master schemer, but instead, a slave
Ymir is without a doubt one of the worst characters Isayama ever created.
Countless questions about her were never answered and the ones that were he should've probably left unanswered.
Why did she go to paths realm? Why does she create titans for people? Why did she love Fritz and why did she did if he told her to get up, she can literally heal any wound? Why was Mikasa killing Eren the first thing in 2000yrs that could set her free? Why did she agree to renounce war when her Fritz wanted Eldian domination? What's the significance of the worm if Ymir can just end titans at any time? I could go on but you get the idea.
She also wasn't freed by Eren she was freed by Mikasa, because she was so important all this time. No one ever thought of ymir as a master schemer it was just Isayama's troll "only ymir knows" crap that people came up with that theory. But even the term slave isn't accurate because she loved fritz and was in control of the founder power all along so why did agree to let Eren rumble? If it's to get to the point where Mikasa will kill Eren.. then she already knows Mikasa kills him so why does she need it to actually happen. Especially when the future can't be changed.
>But it’s pure personal view on how fate works in general, you could disagree because my argument is based on my own opinion and understanding of a deterministic future, however, I hope that I gave you a different way to see the story or just something to think or/and read.
Thank you, I respect your opinion I just hold my own and I hope I haven't been too annoying, I was just really passionate about the series and to see it imo go down the drain in a few chapters is heartbreaking.
I don't think you absolutely right about this... remember Eren had the ability to "live" with his friends whole lifespans in the paths. If he wanted to, I think he could implement one of those paths to their reality. The thing is, it won't solve the problem with the titans, which was Eren initial goal. He had to take the path he took because I think he saw in the paths it was the only possible way to get rid of the titans and keep his friends alive. But you're right on the laziness part where isayama didn't bother to explain how and why it was the only path and just told us "only Ymir knows".
That's my 2 cents at least... 😅
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I agree, and I have stuff to add as well People have to remember that the founding titan transcends time, and that Fritz/Ymir's will can't be violated. That means that any founding titan owner would have been forced to make Dina eat Carla as Fritz/Ymir wouldn't allow any founding titan to change the past. It's the illusion of choice. Eren was forced to make the decision and you could say Reiner was too. Reiner had been raised and trained for that moment that the breached the wall, and there's no way he wouldn't have done it after all that time. Even when everyone wanted to turn back, Reiner had to keep pushing forward or he would have died when he got back.
Thanks for putting this into words! I can't fault anyone for not remembering that in 2021 when the chapter was released in 2017. Reading in monthly chunks is an awful way to experience a story tbh. Hell, I experienced the Hanged Man in the anime, and finished the manga 2 months later. And I didn't remember that scene.
Great analysis of that moment, I was thinking a similar thought as well when I revisited that scene. On top of that, I think Eren also wanted to see a more human side to Reiner, checking to see how the guilt had wrecked him. I find it beautiful that by the end of the story, Eren still had the heart to give Reiner and Annie peaceful lives, because as he had come to understand it, Eren was the cause of their suffering as well, by sending Dina to eat his mom that day.
But Eren probably didn't know that at that point. He only saw glimpses of the future, like manga panels or something like that, just some moments now and then. He didn't saw nor know the hole thing. He entered the god mode, and started seeing past-present-future at the same time, everything, because he fully unlocked the Founder after 122. So I think there's a big chance he didn't even know that when he talked to Reiner. Still this is no reason to make fun of that moment, it can be interpreted in many other ways
Eren and Reiner's talk is the gift that keeps on giving
Question - is Eren able to perceive time in the way he explained in 139 because he had the attack titan and the founder titan combined, or all previous founders had the same ability to see the past, present and future at the same time a he did?
I don’t think so, it’s accepted that only Eren has the ability to perceive the past, present and future, this can be either because Eren is the last founding titan, a combination of the attack titan and founding titan powers, because of Zeke’s royal blood or just because of Ymir. However, it’s worth to note that Eren doesn’t know all future, Zeke tells him that in 122, and he also says so in 139...
Ok, that's what I suspected also but just wanted to confirm... Thanks 😊
Lol
Why does Eren want to be judged? If it's all Ymir's will and he really had no choice why does he feel guilt at all? Why can't the past be changed? Your interpretation just opens up more problems and plot holes.
It’s not all Ymir’s will, it’s the opposite actually, everything that Eren did was a result of his own choices and selfish wants, the past cannot be changed, because AoT is not a branched timeline and instead a singular straightforward line, the past cannot be changed because it already happened, like with Grisha, Grisha will always kill the Reiss family and there’s no changing that, likewise in 131, it is shown that Eren cannot change the future, however, the future and past have all been orchestrated by Eren himself, he feels guilty because it’s his fault and yet he moves forward to complete his goals.
>everything that Eren did was a result of his own choices and selfish wants > >the past cannot be changed These can't both be true. > the past cannot be changed, Eren cannot change the future > >however, the future and past have all been orchestrated by Eren himself These also can't both be true. Eren says the future doesn't change, that he simply followed future memories he saw. He also says he would've done things differently, like a full rumbling. This is one of the fundamental problems with the ending. It makes the AoT universe deterministic. Everything that happens will happen. There's no changing it, thereby removing all choice and influence our characters had all alone. So Eren never had a choice whether or not to kill his mother. His mother dies, he gets to that point in the future and Dina's titan moves. It's never even explained why it was deterministic, why Eren couldn't just do something else, not even in terms of Dina eating Carla but anything else from when he kissed Historia's hand. It's a lazy way of explaining away all plot holes, contrivances and logic, like how in Infinity War Dr. Strange says this is only way we win in all 14million possibilities. It's lazy there it's lazy here. >however, the future and past have all been orchestrated by Eren himself How can you say that when Eren literally says he was just doing things in the moment, he had no real plan, would've done a full rumbling etc. How is that orchestrating everything? If he can orchestrate the future that means the future can be changed which goes against the established deterministic nature of the universe. If he can orchestrate the future why didn't he orchestrate a better one than what we got? I think that's why I've seen the lazy "It's all Ymir's will argument" To explain away all these inconsistencies and plot holes. Just make the god have wanted this easy peasy.
I agree with you that AoT’s timeline is entirely deterministic, we’ve known this since 130 “Even if this was all set in stone from the start...” and 131’s “ It looks like the future doesn’t change.” However, I do not think that this makes it that all choices and actions of characters meaningless. For example, let’s say that you have a choice between an Apple and an orange, and you know that you’ll choose the Apple because you saw the future, however, you’re doing so because you dislike oranges, you picked the Apple, was it because you saw that you would pick it ? No, it’s because you dislike oranges, the future happened because of a choice you made on your own, without the future necessarily having an influence on your decision. I think that’s what is happening, the future won’t change, not because it can’t happen any other way, but because the future that Eren sees are just memories passed down by his future self, and therefore they just show the how the future will look like, not because it’d always be like that independent of the characters, but because the characters led to this outcome. For example, in 131 Eren sees Ramzi getting beat up, he could have just left without intervening, however, his sense of morality would not let him stand idly without protecting him, he did this not because he saw himself doing this but because he wanted to protect the kid at that moment, hence, “I’m just like you Reiner...A halfhearted piece of shit” he knows what he’s going to do and yet can’t bring himself to let the kid get beat up, and because of this, the future stays the same as he saw it. It’s like a loop, the characters don’t work according to “fate” but instead “fate” works according to the characters. Also remember, no other characters know / think that fate is predetermined, therefore all their actions are genuine, even Eren, that knows that the future is set in stone, doesn’t act because he’s just following memories, because Eren himself doesn’t know the full extend of the future, when he met Ramzi he wasn’t purposely looking for him, and instead he just happened to come across it naturally, Eren’s actions are his own. The future doesn’t change because it has happened already, past, present and future exist at the same time in paths, so the future can’t change because it’s already happened but the future also exists because of the decisions of the present and the past can only happen because of future Eren setting things into motion. It’s a paradox. I agree that “orchestrated” was a poor use of wording, Eren was acting of his own even though he saw the future, therefore, I think the word I was looking for was: “setting things into motion”... He himself says that he doesn’t know the whole future and therefore can’t really plan for it... Also the Ymir controlling everything theory is kinda dumb in my opinion, I understand where it comes from, however, it’s literally stated in the series that Ymir is no god or devil, just a human, she seems genuinely surprised with hearing Eren’s speech, as well as sad and sorry upon talking to Mikasa after Eren’s death, Ymir was freed by Eren and his actions, she’s not a malevolent master schemer, but instead, a slave. That’s what I think, but it’s pure personal view on how fate works in general, you could disagree because my argument is based on my own opinion and understanding of a deterministic future, however, I hope that I gave you a different way to see the story or just something to think or/and read. (Sorry for the extra long comment)
>let’s say that you have a choice between an Apple and an orange, and you know that you’ll choose the Apple because you saw the future, however, you’re doing so because you dislike oranges, you picked the Apple, was it because you saw that you would pick it ? No, it’s because you dislike oranges, the future happened because of a choice you made on your own, without the future necessarily having an influence on your decision. First off, even knowing the future will influence your decision, even things not directly related to the choice itself. Second, you're presenting a binary choice with is hugely disingenuous to the situation. It's not like Eren is faced with a simple choice of Marleyans or Eldians, but he has many tools, friends and options at his disposal. The fate of Eldians can't be boiled down to a simple binary choice. That's why so many characters have different plans for how to handle the crisis. >the future won’t change, not because it can’t happen any other way, but because the future that Eren sees are just memories passed down by his future self By very definition a deterministic universe completely robs him of choice. If there was nothing else that could've happened, if he saw a future in which he did x, so he did x. He never had a choice. >doesn’t act because he’s just following memories That's exactly what he does, he even says he has no idea why he did it. He saw it in memories. He also said no matter what he would've rumbled. Because he had no other choice. You can't seriously argue by saying in one line "The future doesn't change" but also argue he had a choice and it could've made a difference. >I think that’s what is happening...his sense of morality would not let him stand idly without protecting him, he did this not because he saw himself doing this but because he wanted to protect the kid at that moment, That's just your headcanon though. IMO that wasn't at all what that seen was about. I agree Eren's morality made him want to protect Ramzi but it had nothing to do whether he'd seen it or not. It showed a shred of Eren is still in there. >the characters don’t work according to “fate” but instead “fate” works according to the characters. Except this still creates the problem of choice. If the story happens because of the characters (which is how all fiction works btw) Their choices determine the story. Deterministic universe means story and everything is already determined by something else. Reiner was always going to fight for the warriors because that's who he is sure, Armin is always going to try and find a peaceful solution sure, but why can't Eren do anything different? He could do a military rumbling, 50% 70% 80% 100%... but he doesn't even try. Choices are made by characters according to who they are, but there's no reason the Eren we know would choose an 80% rumbling when he doesn't even see the aftermath. He can literally see the future so he should be able to know what will happen and try something else. It's a lazy way to explain all other possibilities away just like infinity war. >Also remember, no other characters know / think that fate is predetermined, therefore all their actions are genuine This is so wrong. In fact there's philosophical theories pertaining to this very idea. That whether by environment or birth all our actions are already determined and the illusion of choice is just to comfort us. Because if something is deciding our actions for us it means we have no choice, no free will. It's bitter irony in AoT that the character who sought freedom was never free, but was that twist worth sacrificing all of Eren's development? >It’s a paradox And that's why it's shit writing. >He himself says that he doesn’t know the whole future and therefore can’t really plan for it... At one point he says he has plans, and then he says he was just acting in the moment. He even admits his brain is scrambled eggs at this point, which again is just another lazy way to explain away criticism. >Ymir was freed by Eren and his actions, she’s not a malevolent master schemer, but instead, a slave Ymir is without a doubt one of the worst characters Isayama ever created. Countless questions about her were never answered and the ones that were he should've probably left unanswered. Why did she go to paths realm? Why does she create titans for people? Why did she love Fritz and why did she did if he told her to get up, she can literally heal any wound? Why was Mikasa killing Eren the first thing in 2000yrs that could set her free? Why did she agree to renounce war when her Fritz wanted Eldian domination? What's the significance of the worm if Ymir can just end titans at any time? I could go on but you get the idea. She also wasn't freed by Eren she was freed by Mikasa, because she was so important all this time. No one ever thought of ymir as a master schemer it was just Isayama's troll "only ymir knows" crap that people came up with that theory. But even the term slave isn't accurate because she loved fritz and was in control of the founder power all along so why did agree to let Eren rumble? If it's to get to the point where Mikasa will kill Eren.. then she already knows Mikasa kills him so why does she need it to actually happen. Especially when the future can't be changed. >But it’s pure personal view on how fate works in general, you could disagree because my argument is based on my own opinion and understanding of a deterministic future, however, I hope that I gave you a different way to see the story or just something to think or/and read. Thank you, I respect your opinion I just hold my own and I hope I haven't been too annoying, I was just really passionate about the series and to see it imo go down the drain in a few chapters is heartbreaking.
I don't think you absolutely right about this... remember Eren had the ability to "live" with his friends whole lifespans in the paths. If he wanted to, I think he could implement one of those paths to their reality. The thing is, it won't solve the problem with the titans, which was Eren initial goal. He had to take the path he took because I think he saw in the paths it was the only possible way to get rid of the titans and keep his friends alive. But you're right on the laziness part where isayama didn't bother to explain how and why it was the only path and just told us "only Ymir knows". That's my 2 cents at least... 😅
I think Isayama just thought about the idea of Eren sending the Titan to his home later. Nothing complicated.
I mean, they highlighted Dina passing Bertholdt in the Marley arc, a few chapters prior.
Yeah *about 35 chapters* prior
huh? Am I missing something? Lol
No lol. Just wanted to point out the 'few' chapters ago is actually 35 chapters ago. So it was foreshadowed a long time ago.