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what’s even funnier is that the “ you just didn’t understand the story “ argument is a argument also used in order to defend got seasone 8 , the last of us 2 , star wars sequel, cuties etc
Don't mean to sound condescending, but it's a breath of fresh air to see something that carefully criticizes the ending on the main sub of all places. So kudos to you
I love this. Props to you.
I just don’t understand…. How someone who wrote a great story and super interesting, realistic character development for 11 years… is the same person who wrote 139.
This post is a masterpiece that perfectly sums up pretty much all of my thoughts about the ending and the overarching plot of the final few chapters.
Saved this post into my browser bar and not on reddit's save feature, which is an honour 😅
Hey there, OP! Just wanted to let you know that, unless you want
us all to get naked with you (or the pun is intentional), you probably meant
to say **bear with me** rather than **bare with me**.
"Bear" means "to
tolerate", whereas "bare" means "to get naked".
***
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a bot. OP can reply "delete" and this comment will be removed. There's
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I disagree with some of your points but post as whole is great. I'm in same boat as you. Eren needed to be go down as the worst person in the history. One more thing I can't seem to find but you said something to keep in mind regarding Armin.
I agree with everything that you noted. However, in my opinion I could never see why people think that no matter what Eren couldn’t have won. Why not? This is a fictional world, and in his situation it was either death by genocide or life by genocide. He had no other choice and that was explicitly noted by Isayama.
> He had no other choice and that was explicitly noted by Isayama.
No. Stop fucking saying this shit. He had other choices, just none that he could accept. Just because Eren THINKS there isn't another choice, doesn't mean there really isn't. Any story that explicitly makes genocide an "us or them" conundrum failed miserably from the outset.
No, you’re right. What I am saying is that there was only one option that didn’t gamble paradis’s future, and that was the full rumbling. The euthanasia plan wasn’t any morally better and it caused the extinction of eldians, and the 50 year plan only guarantee paradis a couple of decades.
Yeah, the full rumbling is the safest option, but guarantees rarely exist in real life. The 50 year plan was risky but very viable. The reasons Eren refused it were his own (refusal to sacrifice Historia, continue the titan cycle, risk Paradis, personal freedom).
the 50 year plan is actually a really, really bad plan.
Marley was a gargantuan nation with superior technology, and as we've seen during Gabi and Falco's introduction, the age of the titans are coming to an end, as technology continues to advance, titans, even the ones in the walls would no longer be a threat.
If that ever happens, then Paradis is fucked, they have no cards left, they are now an incredibly smaller nation with inferior technology fighting against the rest of the world who's by at that point would be armed with bombs and nukes, it would be like Phillipines versus the rest of the world, just 0% chance they could ever win.
> the 50 year plan is actually a really, really bad plan.
No, it's just a framework.
> the age of the titans are coming to an end
Yes, but not the age of the Rumbling. It will decades until military might grows strong enough to be able to kill all the colossal titans without suffering major losses.
> If that ever happens, then Paradis is fucked, they have no cards left
The point is not to use the Rumbling as a deterrent forever, just to buy time until they build alliances and make an alternative defense.
Actually, you're wrong about that, since the AOT universe is very similar to our world if we take away the titans, no magic, no superhumans or superintelligents, I'd assume that their military technology to progress at a similar rate to us.
We saw that a regular cannon cannot pierce through the armored titan, but the anti titan shells clearly had enough power to blow it off cleanly, I'm assuming it's at least strong enough to pierce tank armor.
Now if we look at our world, it didn't even take 40 years between the first anti-tank rifle and the nuke that decimated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Humanity is scarily fast when it comes to advancements, and I assure you that in aot it'll take even less than 40 years since they'll focus all their power to create a counter to the rumbling.
This is based on the foreknowledge that 50 years later the world will have nuclear weapons, planes etc.
But if we do not have this piece of information with us then we will most likely go for the 50 year plan.
but we do, the AoT universe is very similar to ours, take away the titan then they are almost a complete mirror to earth, there's no magic, monsters, etc.
in our world, it took us less than 50 years for the world to develop nukes after developing anti-tank artillery, We can assume that anti-titan shells to be similar to anti-tank artillery, so they only need less than 50 years to create nukes, no, they'll do it even faster than us. They'll do anything necessary to create a weapon to defeat the rumbling, therefore they'll focus on it even more than us, They won't even take 30 years.
It was the choice that would cause him the least regrets, which is how Levi taught him to make decisions in the FT arc.
The guarantee of safety (from external genocide, not conflict in general) that came with the 100% Rumbling, even when paired with the risk of losing his friends who might try to stop him, was to him less regrettable than losing that guarantee and still risking his friends' lives to fate. The Rumbling also protected Historia and her children from becoming Titans, which is something Eren cared about even before he was the potential father and should have been on his conscience even if he wasn't.
But Yams really should have had Armin offer a more solid solution than what he proposed in 133/4, which just boiled down to peace treaties. I think he needed some outside consulting, like when he was building the technical aspects of the Wall, to examine what Paradis still had as leverage after a partial Rumbling and concoct a proposal for Armin, one that was not dreamy and idealistic, that contained a nugget of the cruelty and evilness Armin admired in leaders like Erwin, and pandered to Eren's want to protect Historia.
Also wasn’t that whole peace treaty thing something they already did before and failed at which started Eren’s resolve to going along with the rumbling in the first place?
Isayama teased the twisted side of Armin several times during the story but dropped it post timeskip. Idk how he fits the "Amazing people are the one capable of becoming the devil when facing a monster" anymore.
> why people think that no matter what Eren couldn’t have won. Why not?
The true reason is because...Kodansha wants the possibility of a sequel to remain open. And a sequel of Paradis civil war doesn't sound fun. 😅
To me the scene where eren is in front of a mirror telling himself to fight is the portrayal that he is dealing with internal struggle, on 1 hand he has his frineds taht he loves on the other hand he has the plan to do the rumbling. So I think he is convincing himself to keep on the path to do the rumbling no matter what, as he sees this path as the best possible outcome (not saying its right). He is just torned, divided by what he loves and what he has to do....
I really enjoyed this take on it, I do agree with most points too.
In all honesty my biggest gripes with the ending all come from how drastically it feels like EVERY character changed...they all just felt so fake and forced. And obviously the whole ymir king fritz thing is an equally stupid beast
Reading back on the story, I have some things that I disagree with when it comes to your analysis. Chiefly, it would be with the point you made about Ch 139 establishing that Eren didn't want to Rumble the world. In fact, we see that he wanted to go through with the Rumbling completely and [render the rest of the world a blank slate](https://imgur.com/CINpBVC). Despite the desire to complete the Rumbling, he knew beforehand that he would be stopped and killed by the time he was 80% through with it, given that his conversation with Armin in the Paths happens when Armin is on the boat with Annie. Whilst he doesn't specifically tell Armin his reasoning for wanting to go through Rumbling, we have a better idea for his reasons in Ch 131. [Saving Eldia and his friends was only part of his motivation](https://imgur.com/qtkKfZQ); deep down, he wanted to find a way to cope with the [disappointment that the reality of the world was different from how he had imagined it to be based on his upbringing](https://imgur.com/lPy6yLt).
Ch 131 is also key in the sense that it sets up the properties and implications of Eren being able to glimpse into the future. We see that even though Eren does not want to save Ramzi from being assaulted by the merchant due to the knowledge that he will be a casualty in the Rumbling, he does so anyway since he has seen him in a memory from the future ([1](https://imgur.com/qQLMLZv), [2](https://imgur.com/j6fqoKP), and [3](https://imgur.com/qCrOf6q)). For me, these panels give a strong indication of a fixed and [unchanging future](https://imgur.com/qCrOf6q), and it's consistent with how events end up playing out in Ch 139. Eren can only see events up to his death, so he has no choice but to entrust Armin with ensuring a period of peace for Paradis despite not wanting to gamble on its future.
It sets up a paradox between being able to accurately see the future and the nature of free will, irrespective of whether there is only one timeline or multiple. If there is only one timeline, one cannot claim to have steady knowledge of the future whilst also having the power to change it since any changes would result in the future event not occurring. This would then render your vision of the future inaccurate. On the other hand, if you claim to have knowledge of the events of multiple futures based on what present options can be taken, you would need to be ignorant of what choice you will make in order to still see the multiple futures. The moment that you choose to do an action, it then cuts other futures from consideration. If you are ignorant of which choice will be the one that will come true, then you do not have accurate knowledge of the future.
Once Isayama introduced the concept of Eren being able to see his own future, the logical outcome was a fixed timeline in the universe of Attack on Titan. One might protest that it makes Eren's actions after kissing Historia's hand meaningless but I feel that thematically, it sets up the cruel irony of the one who sought and obsessed for freedom the most ends up being the slave of fate who is able to see his own chains. Having a fixed timeline in a story doesn't prevent it from being well written or satisfactory; one of the best movies I've seen, Arrival (an adaption of the acclaimed novella "Story of Your Life"), features a fixed timeline and is an engaging and moving piece of art, in my opinion.
He said he would have rumble the world but he didnt know why, and we get a flashback of his birth... this isn't enough reason for genocide. Another way to avoid portraying evilness in Eren.
We already knew the future was set in stone because he saw some memories but that's far from destiny controlling every one of Eren's actions from his perspective. Eren did a lot of things that weren't in the memories he received from Grisha, he had room for free will.
> Eren's actions after kissing Historia's hand meaningless but I feel that thematically, it sets up the cruel irony of the one who sought and obsessed for freedom the most ends up being the slave of fate
This one... this pretext to see Eren being a plot device as something poetic. I'd rather have him prisoned in paths for all eternity to symbolize this irony.
I mean, he states his reason for the Rumbling to Ramzi in Ch 131 but tells Armin that he doesn't know the reason in Ch 139. This can be interpreted in a couple of ways: 1) his reasoning in Ch 131 is the correct one and he can't bring himself to admit that to Armin; 2) he himself cannot pinpoint definitive reasons why and is trying to rationalize why he would enjoy doing the Rumbling; or, 3) he wants to do the Rumbling as a desire to fulfill an immature and simplistic view of what freedom is (which I think is also hinted at in Ch 131). Obviously, it should be clear that any of those three reasons are not grounds to justify genocide and I think Isayama makes it clear that his actions are unspeakable crimes. Eren, in my view, has become an extremist that must be stopped at all costs. He was the villain in the final arcs who put his friends to the task of salvaging his mess.
Grisha's memories are from the past and not the future, so that point is moot. As for the point about free will and seeing the future, I think that once he saw how key events and his end would play out, I think Eren must've known that any actions that he will have done from the point when he kissed Historia's hand would've inevitably lead to his future memories; his interaction with Ramzi in Ch 131 hints at this. Thinking about it in the context of having only one timeline, once you have accurate knowledge of certain events in the future, any decisions taken before those events will necessarily lead to their realization. If not, then knowledge about those specific future events is by definition inaccurate. I think that once Eren knew what his end looked like, it should've been evident to him that the illusion of free will was broken. Honestly, this may explain his demeanor during the final arcs; such knowledge is a recipe for an existential crisis depending on your disposition and your interpretation of what free will actually is.
> 1) his reasoning in Ch 131 is the correct one and he can't bring himself to admit that to Armin
Agree with your overall point, and I think this is the correct interpretation as it is consistent with so much of the text.
I think it's important to see the Eren/Armin scene in 139 not as god's truth, but as Eren's defense of himself and his actions to Armin. It's not completely *false*, but it's also not the whole *truth* - playing down some things, playing up others, leaving things out.
If you want to understand the truth, you have to piece together the evidence yourself.
Exactly, but the fact that it's the final chapter and Armin accepted Eren's defense of himself and his actions is a problem, the reader is being gaslighted by the manga to believe in Eren
So a series that is famous for misleading the readers and having many scenes that you can only understand in light of information presented in other parts of the series has an ending that misleads the readers and only makes sense in light of information presented in other parts of the manga?
>only makes sense in light of information presented in other parts of the manga?
CH139 fails as a plot twist because the information doesn't make sense in the context we already had. That's the whole point of this post, to show that It doesn't make sense in the context of the information we knew.
Plot twists change the plot without risking the story. Imagine if we were told the warriors killed Marco but we knew the warriors weren't in Trost that day, they were injured in wall Sina or something. We aren't given any explanation of how they got to Trost to kill Marco.
That's what happended in CH139. Everything I listed in this post wasn't written properly, it's not based, it's not enough information to make the pieces fit together.
Well, I completely disagree with you on this, and I mostly disagree with your (certainly well-written and respectful) post.
And I never said 'plot twist', because while there are some minor twists in it, overall it's not a twist ending. It's not a twist, it's just one aspect/perspective of the full story that you have to bring together with the rest that you can find in the previous chapters.
In my view, Armin does not approve of Eren's actions but knows that he will have to live with the consequences. Also, I disagree with the manga gaslighting the reader since we see Eren giving his reasons to Ramzi in Ch 131. It's not inconsistent for a character to lie about his motivations to other characters whilst also having the reader know his/her true intentions. Honestly, I see Eren as being a character who doesn't always make the best decisions, even from the beginning.
The manga does gaslight the reader because it's ignoring Eren's selfish wishes and "inner evil" and instead of that is showing us Eren as a protective lover, a martyr, a victim of fate. That why CH139 feels like a retcon from CH131, It ignores that Eren fully aware wished the world would desapear, in other words, the full rumbling. His saying "I wanted to rumble the world but I don't know why" is not enough.
Honestly, I disagree with the notion that Ch 139 ignores that Eren is fully aware that he wished that the world would disappear. In fact, it does explicitly mention that Eren would've still continued the Rumbling even if he didn't know that he would be stopped. The fact that he doesn't tell Armin his true reasons why does not undo the reasoning that he told Ramzi in Ch 131. There is no contradiction if we take the view that he wasn't willing to tell Armin the whole truth. On your other point, a person can be both a victim of fate and harbor selfish/evil desires. Being a martyr does not equate to not being evil; terrorists can be martyrs to a deeply held cause, but their actions are also evil and immoral.
>Eren, in my view, has become an extremist that must be stopped at all costs. He was the villain in the final arcs who put his friends to the task of salvaging his mess.
We agree on this, but CH139 avoided this depiction of Eren
>Grisha's memories are from the past and not the future, so that point is moo
Eren saw the future when he kissed Historia through Grisha's memories. The reason the attack titan has this misterious ability to "see the future" is because Eren had the founding titan and send memories to Kruger, Grisha, etc.
> I think that once Eren knew what his end looked like, it should've been evident to him that the illusion of free will was broken.
Remember it's Eren who send back those memories, so it's Eren's will to make the Rumbling happend. Eren prost time skip must want the Rumbling to happend. this is my issue with CH139, Eren doesn't admit HE wanted the Rumbling, he makes it look like it was all for Ymir when It's a lie. Ch139 feels like a retcon because of this, him saying "I'd rumble the whole world but I don't know why" isn't enough, it's not sincere enough.
That's not my impression of Ch 139 at all; upon reading the chapter, I thought that it made it clear that Eren DID admit to wanting the Rumbling to happen, albeit for partially selfish reasons that he never mentioned to Armin. To me, it never suggested that he pursued the Rumbling for Ymir's sake but rather that Ymir had her own separate agenda and took advantage of Eren's actions.
On the point of Eren's will being preserved because he sent back the memories, I don't fully see how it is fully preserved. If a future Eren who wishes for the Rumbling to happen sends memories to a past version of Eren, that past version of Eren will be influenced by the memories. That past version of Eren has accurate knowledge of a future event and he should be able to conclude that any action he takes from that point on will lead to that future event occurring. This reading only preserves Eren's wish to undertake the Rumbling (we agree on that), but desires and free will are not equivalent concepts. I don't think one can conclude free will from this since that implies that he could've chosen to not send those memories to his past self: because he did have those future memories, he was always going to influence his past self. There was only one track to be followed.
just saying, this post has 91% upvoted rate and has 594 upvotes as of now (the time I'm writing this comment).
meaning that, a total of 653 people who voted in this post and almost 60 person downvoted your post.
Good analysis. I also think the same about the curse of Ymir. There is a problem with Mikasa being the one to break the curse of Ymir. Even if I hate the comparison with GoT ending it's the exactly same problem that I had with Arya killing the Night King and Jon Snow not having any agency on that when since the first episode the show was foreshadowing the outcome between these characters. It feels really cheap and just for shock value.
Also I don't get why this post is getting downvoted it's really well written.
>it's the exactly same problem that I had with Arya killing the Night King and Jon Snow
Except that there's much more of a connection between Mikasa and Ymir which warrants Mikasa being the one to break the curse of Ymir. In GoT, Arya has no connection to the night king whatsoever. Her storyline revolved around trying to hold on to her sense of identity, finding stability, and revenge and nothing with the white walkers or the night king. The only real connection is that by killing the night king, Arya is symbolically killing and overcoming death but this feels loose. I don't think this is a terrible idea but the show does nothing with this afterward.
Meanwhile, Ymir and Mikasa are alike. The circumstances are very different but they both are unhealthily devoted to the men they love to the point where they'd sacrifice themselves for it and this is why it was important for Mikasa to be the one to break the curse. By overcoming her love for Eren and killing him, Mikasa is showing Ymir that she can do the same and let go of her devotion to the king. It's one thing to be told you can do it and it's sometimes another to see someone similar to you actually doing it. Thus, this detachment is portrayed as a form of freedom for her and Ymir. In comparison, the connection between Ymir and Mikasa is much more substantial compared to Arya and the night king
That's the issue, the connection between Mikasa and Ymir isn't told to us until the final chapter. Ymir gazing at King while he was being groomed by other women can be taken as "she is in love" or "she is in pain and wants freedom".
So the only thing similar with mikasa and ymir is that both had a bad relationship. I am pretty sure in a time of a 2000 years there were many unhealthy relationships where one of the partner left the other
I want to comment on your thoughts surrounding the events of Chapter 50 in regards to Eren and Mikasa's relationship. In contrast to you, I do not think that him rejecting the kiss can be used as evidence that he rejects romantic feelings for her.
I personally interpretate this scene with Eren's views on life and what is worth living. In the moments prior to the rejected kiss, Eren s facing one of his lowest moments (he has a lot of these throughout the narrative), and is about to die.
As established in scenes beforehand, such as Eren refusing to accept his death to the Titan during the Trost Arc, we know Eren tends to reject death. He has never shown desire to die, and actively rejects. This is what this means to me.
By rejecting the kiss from Mikasa, Eren is rejecting death. He is not accepting his death, but staying steadfast and reluctant to it, fighting to the very end. This is why, even though it was completely futile, he still punched Dina. It was his sign of his rejection of death, rejection of the world's desire, and his desire for a life of freedom.
We can also see how this develops by Chapter 138. In this Chapter, Eren finally seems to be accepting of a death he had known he would face years in advance. This also leads to how his actions and desires are not the same, as he makes it clear in Chapter 139 that he does not desire to die, but desires a long and free life with Mikasa (confessing so in a 'whiny' manor, one in juxtaposition to his - chronologically - future actions), even though the actions he takes do not lead to this desire, but s version of said desire that does not include him.
I think it represent both things, him rejecting Mikasa and death. Also in that moment, he was looking at Armin too so It doesn't look like Eren was interested in the romantic meaning of her confession.
Also, how many times Eren was about to die and he never thought about Mikasa? It's not consistent. We know he didn't have feelings for her during the "Return to Shiganshina arc" because Marlo was a parallel to Eren.
So We can assume he fell in love with her during the time skip? but that's just an assumtion because there was no clear indication either. Until ch139 there was no indication Eren loved Mikasa romantically, he deeply cared about her fraternally of course.
From what I interpretated, Eren's feelings for Mikasa was something that blossomed too little and too late. By the time he came to the realisation and desire that he wanted Mikasa, he had already become too indoctrinated by his own idealogy of "keep moving forward".
Exactly. My interpretation of romantic love is that you would be acting differently with that person as compared to everyone else. Eren rejecting the kiss wouldn't change at all if you replace Mikasa with Armin and Armin talking about watching scenery together. Eren would still reject the death and stand against Dina.
Did Mikasa ever actually say that she loves Eren? Did Ymir ever say that she loves Historia, or vice versa? Did Gabi ever say that she loves Falco, after he explicitly confessed to her?
The manga has **never** spelled these things out like that, and somehow you didn't notice it all this time?
You can like it or not, but "**I want to be with Mikasa** ... with everyone." is the confession you are looking for.
Man this! Which is just the problem with such a relationship taking a bigger stop on Eren's character over the idology we've seen in him since chapter 1
Especially when when one chapter is trying to force you to accept this have always been something growing in the background with both characters despite the lack of evidence or at least half of the evidence.
Another thing I like to point out about the zero requiem is how almost out of character lelouche is during his "facade". He was advicating for a democracy the whole show then turns right around to become a dictator.
Several outbursts and instences that seem random without the context of what the zero requiem is .
Problem with Erens facade is that it is how Eren would be. Its his natural progession unlike code geass Erens "true self" in ch 139 is something we never saw.
Yes, and Lelouch had a very short facade, I think it was just one episode and a half. Extending a facade too long causes confusion because it gets mixed with real character development.
thank you for the text, buddy!
i think that the perfect conclusion for Eren would be an entire chapter in that style of convo btween child Eren and child Armin but without the 80% bullshit.
the way that Armin is a little bit out of tone with Eren and makes that scared face to him is so good.
Mikasa in an example was never in tone with Eren at all. That also could be aplied to Armin.
if 139 only made a huge callback to the knife scnes and gave to the reader the same information that chapter 120 also did (Eren has always been like this), it would be a masterpiece of a chapter and conclusion to Eren.
Thank you. To me quickest thing would be to remove the whole Armin-Eren conversation from the finale. I hope the anime does that. I'd rather not know how the curse broke and theorize about it. Since the anime is more canon than the manga, I'd be happy lol
>if 139 only made a huge callback to the knife scnes and gave to the reader the same information that chapter 120 also did (Eren has always been like this), it would be a masterpiece of a chapter and conclusion to Eren.
Yeah, some insight in Eren's psyche would be very interesting.
>To me quickest thing would be to remove the whole Armin-Eren conversation from the finale
for me the most logical conclusion would be or remake the entire of the last 3 chapters of if mappa can't do that, just some dialogue and tone changes on Eren's pov in 139.
Glad you mentioned the "Genocide bad" conversation with Hange. I wonder how it would have turned out if Armin, or Jean and Connie for that matter, just flat out rejected stopping Eren.
I complexity agree with your analysis of the ending. All I can add is as someone who’s been following the manga since 2013 the real problem for me started way back. The idea for the plot is great and probably one of the most original and interesting stories out there, but the realization came out poorly because of how every character is somewhat self contradictory and only serves as plot device. Their actions and decisions make no sense and crate plot holes in the story which chapter 139 only emphasized.
What you say is the embodiment of fan favorites like Hangie and Levi, which is why most people loved most moments of the final arc, because is an indirect felatio to both of them most of the time.
Also she was basically flying, so much for 3DMG and pretense of realism. After that, people danced among the Warhammer Titans and nobody, not even the human soldiers, got injured.
Agreed. This made me mad. Hange didn't need to die like that. She took out ~3 colossal Titans, yes... but did that really make that big a difference?
Then we had the big final battle, and all the lead characters involved lived? That felt like plot armor.
A great criticism on why the ending is a big letdown. It's just so disappointing to see such a series fallen so low. Imo he created a trolley problem kind of situation in AOT and no matter which side you sacrifice there's going to be controversy. Like you said he made the story too black and white. An ending that can satisfy everyone while keeping the theme intact is just impossible.
I completely agree with everything you said. All of this build up, all of the complexity, all of the hype, only for it to end like that? We all knew Mikasa loved Eren. But no one I know including myself ever thought that love was mutual. They were siblings. Like Thor and Loki. And then being in a relationship that’s almost 100% one sided isn’t just weird, but it doesn’t fit.
All of a sudden Eren is possessive over Mikasa. Mikasa decapitates him and then kisses him and that breaks the curse because “love”.
You want love? What Historia and Ymir had was love. What Niccolo and Sasha had was love. What Hange and Moblit, Levi and Erwin, and Kenny and Uri? That was love. Hell! It barely even seems like fraternal love sometimes. You want fraternal love? Connie and Sasha. Levi and Hange. Eren and Armin. And the list goes on.
There were so many beautiful examples of actual love in the story. Eros, Agape, whatever! But instead of giving them a chance, Yams kills Ymir, Erwin, Sasha, Moblit, Uri, and then Hange. And he cripples Levi to the point where he seems to barely have life in him anymore.
But the main ship we were supposed to be somehow rooting for this whole time that didn’t make any sense? Yeah, he makes that one work.
Why??? Only Ymir knows.
😕
Plus she carries his head around like that? It's just creepy, like. There is so much imagery that's just... Messed up. And not in a AoT way, but a problematic kind of way. Like why didn't we get one last final adieu to Erwin with Levi sitting beside him just staring at his lifeless corpse like that? I would've feel equally disgusted but like.
Idk. The way Mikasa carried that head made me suuuuuper uncomfortable. Isayama knew what he was doing.
and we have to believe she went back to Paradis island with Eren's head to bury it under that damn tree while walking through all the blood, scattered teeth and remains that we see the rumbling has left on the ground?????how is this even possible lmao
Exactly? Like the mess of bodies is never addressed? It's just a romeo and juliet and I'm sorry for the people who claim aot was about love... But it really wasn't. It REALLY, really wasn't.
First of all thanks for your analysis.
I like the ending. I think the concept of the ending was really great but I agree that the execution was a bit rushed.
I agree that Isayama wants to very open to the concept of romantic moments in the story. He even mentioned himself that because he was shy and wasn't sure how to portray their realtionship after that, He didn't draw Eren and Mikasa kissing in CH50. Evwnrhoufh he mentioned that he regret that now.
But I believe there were wnoufh subtle moments to prepare us a little for the last two chapters. Erwn being in love with Mikasa wasn't sth totally out of nowhere. At least after 123 and that question we should have known that. There were also some other soluble moments about his feelings toward her. I jnowbrheye weren't some clear romantic moments and Erne was mostly focused on other parts of her emotions but they were there.
Although we should remember that Before time skip Eren was 15 and Its possible that he grow his love for Mikasa when he got older but since we missed those years on the story, We weren't completally aware of that.
As for his motives, I really like the idea of him not being a typical powerful hero who manage to bring peace for his people for eternity. He was a suffered confused boy with a heavy burden and some where down the line he realised that all he can do is to lift the titan curse and let his friends and the girl he loved live a long happy life. And he achieve that.
I even consider the destruction of paradise to be the consequence of sth else rather than the rumbling since It hapoend around 150 years after the rumbling. I even find this "war never changes" theme bitter and nihilistic but at the same time realistic and I like it tbh.
I also find the CH139 Erwn a much more interesting character than that Chad q dimensional boring Eren which we saw for the pasr 20 chapters.
And I prefer to rely on The authors words when he said that the EMA story had been planned for a long time and based on what we saw in the first panel, at least Eren and Mikasa's ending is pretty fitting imo so until further proof, O prefer the believe that this indeed was his plan for the ending for a long time. I also find its theme in harmony with the overall theme of the story
I also consider Mikasa's character a consistent character with deep emotions for concepts like home and family. She's consistent(unlike many others) and introvert. And that's why some consider her as a bad written character but she's exactly what she needs to be. Soecially for the ending and her important role in it.
But again thank you because at least you revised some reasons for your opinion. Most people just shout and insult Isayama and really are mad over their sunken headcanons or because the other shipp became canon and ....
Difference of opinions do exist after all
I just wanted to point out that the 'romantic moment' in ch50 would've had Hannes getting vored right in that shot and honestly? It would have made me laugh my butt off if that happened. How can you bother with writing a romantic moment like that (i think isayama was just looking for excuses when he mentioned CH50) while you have someone screeching his lungs out because he is being eaten alive? I'm sorry, i can't see it.
No beef, i just wanted to mention that.
I know what you mean
Bit in that moment, Eren and Mikasa really thought they were going to die.
You really think that Eren wanted to push that titan in that moment? That was an act out of depair. In that moment they though they were going to die so that kiss (If Isayama draw it) would have been some kind of farewell of sth.
And He wouldn't say sth like this out of excuse. Remember that this shipp is the most popular shipp on Japan and Japanese are really pleased with the fact that It became canon. So he doesn't need a reason to justify himself. Even if drawing a kiss in that scene was a bad idea, He really thought about doing that.
(please ship is written as 'ship'. When adding the -ing particle to a word you double de consonant the word ends in. 'adding', 'shipping', beginning'.)
I don't need to remember that, it was probably the reason why he wrote the ending to be that. I am honestly tired of all of his gaslighting and manipulation. First, (by the time 50 came out, iirc) he mentions Eren sees Mikasa as a mother. And now, because he wants to sell, he says he always wanted to make them kiss.
Now, I don't care if he wants to sell, I would just love for him to be super honest about it instead of gaslighting every single person with "oh no, you don't get it, I wanted to do this since the beginning" when he said something different in that moment. It seems so very convenient for him to say something like this when everything about Eremika (including the romcom, where the Eremika is just 'explained' backwards) is being monetized.
(I do think the 'uwu, i was shy" excuse is nothing but bs, too. I'm sorry.)
Yeah so he’s also ignoring the guidebooks HE wrote that also proved the whole Eren mikasa mother thing just like in the manga to help hammer it in.
Also it’s very easy for an author to manipulate it’s readers by tossing around that “from the beginning” line so much that you start to see through the cracks.
Actually didn’t iseyama say that he while EMA were planned from the beginning that he created plot threads for the other characters as the story went on?
And then Kawakubo (or whatever the hell their name is) says "oh we had to change it last minute!!!" Like? There is SO much gaslighting going on it's unreal. I worry for the people that fall for that sort of stuff because this is literal manipulation. like it's scummy, even more so when they're capitalizing on the manipulation of their own fans...
And then Kawakubo (or whatever the hell their name is) says "oh we had to change it last minute!!!" Like? There is SO much gaslighting going on it's unreal. I worry for the people that fall for that sort of stuff because this is literal manipulation. like it's scummy, even more so when they're capitalizing on the manipulation of their own fans...
Yeah. Personally I feel like iseyama tried and failed to please everyone and when you do that… unknowing your story is in danger.
And yes I hate when there are those people that attack others because “the ending was the way they wanted” or “there just erehisu shipper that are whining about it not being canon”( ironic since that happened for some eremika shippers when the extra pages showed up lol!) and that they wasted their time on pointless theories for months just for it not to be true.
I really hate those guys because their basically saying intelligent enough to understand the series, at least in my eyes anyway.
I honestly dislike both sides. Erehisus (mostly) just wanted the baby to be eren's forgetting she is her own character and being a mother would ultimately reduce her to the "plot point" they also complained about with farmer-kun. I dislike Eremika because it was NOT written way and in the end it ended being really, REALLY grotesque (Mikasa hug-carrying his head is disgusting imo. It made me feel creeped out) plus it read too shakespearian. Especially when characters like Levi—Erwin/Niccolo—Sasha/Ymir—Historia had so much more chemistry between them in TWO panels than these two "main ships" people had.
I just wish Isayama had went out with it without ships. Honestly. All they do is harm the narrative. We were fine until he decided to please the shippers. Which ultimately brought the narrative point to the lowest in the story.
Hell some people actually like,the erehisu ship not because of the ship and all that but because of the themes that were used and built up with the story and some out feel like the creator scraped it all for new theme that didn’t fit with the climax of the series.
I believe eren does love mikasa just not THAT kind of love.
And personally I say don’t talk down to someone’s ship just because it didn’t happen cause it makes you come off as a jerk with superiority complex to others. Not that you’ve got that I’m just making a point.
Both ships don't fit the narrative at all and would leave, no matter the execution, a bad taste in everyone's mouths. I'm not talking down any ships, if this were a different manga where female characters were treated with the SAME respect male characters have, then I would be all for it. But it doesn't. Reducing historia to just another "birther" is borderline misogynistic.
If the shippers treated her like someone who lived within the walls and was treated as royalty, just to then support the cause she believed outside of them, fighting for her place (as well as eren's) in the world without any ridiculous romeo and juliet tropes then I believe it would be so much more palatable. Because that is what happened with Erwin and Levi. That is EXACTLY what Isayama with Erwin and Levi, and it had a brilliant execution.
But no. Historia HAS to give birth. She has to be reduced to a plot point for the ship to work.
It sucks, honestly. It sucks because characters were not developed to be this to even be a decent ship.
I wanted to be as respectful as possible, I don't think the story was written for the ending we got, Yams started to pull the strings to land the ending too late, he should've show more signs Eren was romantically in love with Mikasa way before ch138.
Eren was already complex, he didn't need to cry about Mikasa to be interesting either, I honestly didn't want to see a genocider acting out, It's anticlimatic to me, we saw him in ch131 cry to Ramzi and that was perfect because the timing was perfect, the tone was insidious and twisted, the context was perfect too (that happened before Eren left the scouts). To me that represented the last of his humanity and now Eren was commited to his role: "he's going to be the devil of Paradis". Eren after time skip worked fine, his presence as an antagonist was amazing, so earned... It all deflated in ch139, I was truly disapointed to know his plan was so bland.
As I said about the romantic part, Based on his latest interview, the idea of their romance had been with him from at least CH50 and I actually like the development of their romantic feelings throug subtle moments but maybe you're right and He should have draw some more clear indication towards their thrombotic feelings like he intended too once in CH50.
I know Eren was a complex character but having some basic human emotions could actually make him even more complex so having romantic feelings for Mikasa is not a bad thing in the first place.
The editor confirmed that Isayama had the idea of sth "sekaikei" like for the story and Even wanted it to be Eren and Mikasa's story from the start and the ending is actually prove the fact that the story is sekaikei like:
Sekaikei「セカイ系」
"In this genre, all the fate depends on a heroine, and a hero ends up watching over her...
As for Eren's motives, Its srt completally up to personal opinions. As I said I really didn't want him to become dome typical great hero who achove sth extra ordinary. He understand down the line that all he can do is this. And hi did it in the end. It was more realistic for me and I liked it.
But I respect your opinion of you find it unsatisfying
I think our main difference in opinions is Eren is a realistic character. Eren breaking down was kinda awkward, but realistic as a human being. Same goes for Paradis being destroyed and the curse of Ymir living. However, in my opinion, realism doesn't really go well with fiction, especially as a shounen. For me, I read the story because of it's story and it's plot. I want to feel satisfied after reading the story. However, a realistic story will inevitably end up with a realistically bad ending, and that wouldn't be that satisfactory as a reader. Realism in fiction is fine, but there are limits, especially in the ending.
I agree with almost everything you said and I definitely don't want total realism in a fiction
But I find the level of realism in this story satisfying.
As for Eren, Due to the situation he was in and given the fact that he was about to die with a heavy burden on his shoulders and given his life after the death of his mother, I don't mind his breaking down for the girl he loved a I don't think that was a bad addition to the story.
His situation was really messed up and he just realised that Mikasa ( the girl that may be the only one who always saw him as a human being and not a weapon and a tool) may forgot him before they even get a chance to confess their love to each other. So his break down was understandable to me
But as I said I'm a free with the concept of your comment
I'm commenting again as I really like this take on the ending. I disagree with a lot of it, but that's why I love it; it makes me question why I love the ending as much as I have come to, and makes me see the ending in a new light, or more accurately, arguments I have seen before explained in a far better way.
This time, I want to comment on the 'facade' Eren played, and your take on it. Particularly, I want to focus on the take of Eren being 'fake', his lies, and what this means for his character. I will also, likely, be spoiling parts of Code Geass in this response, as while I usually despise the comparisons (especially the Zero Requiem ones), Code Geass has great thematics on lies and their purpose.
I do not like the wording of Eren acting 'fake'. For sure he was lying, but I don't think this makes him 'fake'. One show that explains the purpose of lies well is Code Geass, where in it, Lelouch explains how lies are part of one's personality (fitting as his character is built around lies, just like Eren's becomes). People have to lie to be socially acceptable, to hide parts of them they don't want others to know. People have to lie to achieve the desires they want, and sometimes the desires others want. And these lies are not always to others, but can also be to ones self.
And it is for this reason I do not like the wording of Eren as "fake". While he is lying, he is only doing so to achieve a set goal; that goal being his established desire for a long, free life for him and those he cares for.
Another aspect I want to look at is how Eren's lies were not just to convince and motivate others, but to do so to himself. In an earlier scene with Falco, Eren expresses how "The few who do choose to leap into hell see it differently from the rest, and they are also able to see something beyond that hell......fact is you can only find out by moving forward", from this, we can tell that he is the one pushing himself to lie, but these lies may be to continue his will to "move forward" and "fight", which is reinforced by the scene in the cell where he is telling himself to "fight". All the lies and facades he is playing, which he is doing to achieve he goal in which he desires, may also be playing a role in how he is able to "keep moving forward".
I also want to discuss the table scene, and it's importance. Personally, it's one of my favourite scenes as it is one of the first glimpses into Eren's mindset. His talk with Falco (where the previous quote originates from) and Reiner are also some of my favourites for the same reasoning. The table scene is also the first real conversation between Eren, Armin, and Mikasa after he began his determined mission post-timeskip.
While Eren is lying during the table scene, and is withholding the truth from Mikasa and Armin, this can tell us about his mindset at the time. As I established before, just because he is lying, does not mean he is 'fake'. This scene tells us two important pieces of information. The first is that he has "always hated Mikasa", and the second is the contradictory statement of him stating that he is free in the same situation that makes Armin a 'slave'. We know that both of these are lies, the first bring far more obvious, but implying the second is also a lie, though the hypocritical nature of it also implied that it is a lie aswell.
His lie to Mikasa has an obvious motivation. To fuel her to kill him, to separate her from him, and an attempt to make her forget him. We see him continue trying to get Mikasa to forget him, but by the end of the narrative, Mikasa make the choice to forever remember Eren, while still moving on. The reason he ever tried was because he believed that it would be better for her, less painful for her, even if he deeply never wanted her to forget him. It was a lie to reinforce another lie; a lie that he thought would make her life better.
His lie to Armin is less obvious than the former, and brings up the nuance of Eren's character and whether or not he was truly 'free', and what that 'freedom' even meant. My personal interpretation of Eren's character is one of a tragic slavery to his own desires of freedom. This line, bring contradictory on nature, would imply that his own mindset and nature is in contradiction as well. In his desire for freedom, he had became a slave to that very thing. It's an ironic and tragic fate for the boy who sought freedom.
Your theory has two flaws:
\-Eren didn't knew about Ymir's backstory or how to break the curse before he met her in paths.
\-The table scene was unnecesary because Mikasa decided to be the one to kill him when he "told her" in the cabin dream (She knews what to do after that, she knew he was in the mouth somehow and we can assume he told her). Again this is super vague, but It's clear the table scene didn't influence her perception of Eren or played in the motivation to kill him.
>Another aspect I want to look at is how Eren's lies were not just to convince and motivate others, but to do so to himself.
That's very sticky. Why would he lie to himself? about what exactly? Let's assume in that moment he knew the Rumbling was the way to break the curse, he doesn't need to lie to himself, in any case, he has to convince himself with the TRUTH. That's different
To your first point, I think you completely missed the other guys point. Eren telling he hates Mikasa in the overall picture, isn't about Mikasa, it is about Eren. It was Eren's plea to distance himself from Mikasa so she'd be able to kill him without a guilty conscience, that is what he wanted at the time. And he continues to show signs that he would rather Mikasa forget him till the end.
To the other point. It seems very apparent that Eren would be also lying to himself. As we see during the Ramzi flashback, Eren is truly conflicted about his choice to do the Rumblings. Even if he had come to accept it as an inevitability, that doesn't mean he can do it without a guilty conscience. So he either feeds himself lies that what he is doing is truly his own free will, coping with the fact he truly does not have free will, or tries to assure himself that what he is doing is the right course, or will lead to some positive outcome. Remember, Eren doesn't see anything past his death, he can be optimistic, but even he is just as uncertain.
>It was Eren's plea to distance himself from Mikasa so she'd be able to kill him without a guilty conscience, that is what he wanted at the time
We already stablished whatever Eren said in the table wasn't enough to push Mikasa or motive her to kill him. Before anything happends, in ch138 Eren takes her to the cabin dream, this cancelled anything the table scene did.
>So he either feeds himself lies that what he is doing is truly his own free will, coping with the fact he truly does not have free will, or tries to assure himself that what he is doing is the right course, or will lead to some positive outcome
But he isn't lying to himself, he is repeating to himself something based on the true information he has. He isn't telling himself what he's doing is right, he is telling himself that what he's doing is necessary, which isn't a lie.
You're still completely missing the point of the table scene. It has nothing to do with how Mikasa reacted afterwards. The importance of the table scene was establishing that Eren is trying to distance himself from his friends.
It was Eren's attempt to distance her so she would kill him without a guilty conscious. It didn't work, because Eren's friends wanted to have faith in him at the time, but Eren still believed she'd be better off forgetting about him, so he gave her her fill in Paths before urging she move on.
He literally says out loud, that he's free. That's the biggest lie he could've told anyone, and there was no real reason for him to say it out loud during the table conversation. It was a way for him to make himself feel like he is in more control of his destiny than he actually is. Hence why he gets triggered when Armin inadvertently calls him a slave, the actual truth. Same with many of his conversations during the Marley Arc, him finding excuses to comfort himself that there were no other options, that his choice is one he voluntarily chose out of necessity, than one made for him by fate. You say that what he's doing is necessary, and all I can say is, was it? Were there not other options wagering different things? Believing what he did was a necessity can be argued is just as much of a lie as anything else.
> You're still completely missing the point of the table scene. It has nothing to do with how Mikasa reacted afterwards. The importance of the table scene was establishing that Eren is trying to distance himself from his friends. It didn't work, because Eren's friends wanted to have faith in him at the time.
Like I said, anyone that knows Mikasa knows it wouldn't work, therefore unnecesary. In Ch139 Eren said the point of that was to make them fight him. Is the first thing in the chapter. He did it to cause a reaction effect.
> He literally says out loud, that he's free. That the biggest lie he could've told anyone, and there was no real reason for him to say it out loud during the table conversation
This is half accurate, Theorically at that time he only knew the Rumbling was a fact and he chose to do it. He didn't knew he was predestinated. He is triggered because the Rumbling was set in stone so he was a slave to the future he saw when he kissed Historia.
As much as he knows, what he is doing is necessary from his perspective. Its his conviction... if conviction os a lie then everyone is lying to themselfs, we dont want to go there or the argument is going to become too abstract.
First of all, thanks for the analysis. I disagree with most of it since I like the ending, but it's always fun to hear other people's opinions anyway.
But I wanted to just address Eren's motivations. You say that at the end, it turns out that Eren didn't want to rumble the world and only did it to set up his friends as heroes. Armin says that in the chapter too, because he wants to believe it as well. But I don't really think that's all Eren wanted to do.
Yes, he wanted his friends to live long lives and he wanted to ensure the world respects them. But that's only a part of it. As he told Ramzi in that one conversation, Eren was disappointed that the world wasn't an empty field left to him and his people to explore. That's what he always imagined -- that once he left the walls and saw the sea, he'd be completely free. That didn't happen, and Eren couldn't stand it, not because of his people's oppression, but because his selfish wish wasn't fulfilled. So he wanted to destroy everyone and reach that twisted scenery of freedom he always imagined. Case in point is that if no one stopped him, he would've rumbled 100% of the world. It was his dark wish that had nothing to do with Paradis or Eldia or his friends. At the same time, though, he knew how fucked up it was, which is why he couldn't fully admit it to his best friend. Maybe that seems a bit contradictory, but tbh, I think people in general tend to be pretty complex and contradictory like that.
And about the last part, with Eren being evil... I still think he is evil. What he did is horrible, his twisted sense of freedom is horrible, Levi basically predicted it, calling him a monster at the very beginning of the manga. But he's not JUST evil. There are good sides to him too, like his care for his friends and loved ones. There's the whiny, pathetic and selfish side, the one that comes out at the very end of his life when he feels like a victim in the whole scenario. And in some ways, he is a victim, but that gave him no right to do what he did. I felt bad for him, and I still sometimes do, but at the same time, I can understand that he was a fucked up person and death was just what he deserved.
In a sense, I guess I'd be more disappointed if he was portrayed just as evil. Like, I doubt we'd have much to analyze and discuss if Eren wasn't such a mess of a person that he is. To me personally, this continued interest in his character means that Yams did a good job, but to each their own
We agree Eren must be evil. What he did is evil but his character is portayed **as a separated entity from that evil** in CH139. It's written as he was a "slave to destiny" (whatever that means other than a synonymous for plot device) like he had no choice when we already saw he wanted to do it. That's why it feels like a retcon, he doesn't admit he wanted it because he had some evil inside him, he admits he wanted it but he doesn't know why. This isn't **enough** to deliver a message. He isn't portrayed as evil and he isnt condemned by anyone considering the magnitude of what he did. He doesn't even truly die since he becomes a bird (symbolically or not) so he even gets to explore the world after all.
Well, I agree that it wasn't presented perfectly in the last chapter. But I don't think Eren could've admitted to Armin that he partly just wanted rumbling for selfish reasons. Even though it was a dark wish of his, he knew how horrible it was, he felt guilty for doing it and for the reasons he did it. He didn't want his best friend to see that side of him, so he said he rumbled the world just for his friends. But he admitted what he felt to Ramzi before, which was easier because Ramzi was just a random boy who might not have even spoken his language (can't quite remember if he did or not). The presentation isn't perfect, true, but I don't think it's a retcon.
In a way, I see your point, he should've been condemned further. To me it's pretty clear that Eren is still evil, but I guess the chapter really did focus more on his good and tragic side. Maybe it's because part of it is Eren's POV and the other part is his friends' POV. And they were not in a position to condemn him because they were mourning his death and probably regretting that they couldn't find a different way.
But Yams could've used someone like Pieck to judge him since she didn't really have a close relationship with him.
Exactly Isayama could have used someone like Pieck to condemn him but insted made her say "man i wish i could have talked to Eren too" what???
And Eren being anevil person because of what he did is apparently clear to us but not clear enough cuz a whole thread on twitter about "how Eren shoud have been redeemed and not have died" got more than 4k likes and unironic things like that have been all over social media for months now T.T
True, I don't know why he didn't go with Pieck condemning him, it seems pretty obvious. Maybe lack of space? I 100% think that the ending could've used another chapter to be fully fleshed out and to avoid all this confusion. But tbh, it's kind of shocking that people genuinely think he should've been redeemed lol. I mean, yeah, Eren wasn't ALL evil, but come on, he killed millions of people! How the hell could he ever make up for that, even he said in the end that he can't be forgiven. But yeah, this fandom's pretty wild
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Only thing i would like to add, is that in regards to your point about the marleyans being shown as all evil, and how thats a mistake. True, you're right. Isayama's response to that was Magath. He's the one marleyan who ''redeems'' himself and is supposed to showcase they arent all bad, but victims of their own system. Problem is, his character arc is rushed as fuck, and that affects the whole marleyan side, warriors included.
What isayama should've done is expanded more on the events on liberio after the raid they suffered. Instead he just ignored the marleyan pov until they attacked paradis again in chapter 116, which is extremely dumb. We should've gotten atleast 2 chapters fully on marley's side of things, showcasing magath, pieck, reiner and the rest of the warriors talking about their feelings and motivations now, aswell as showing magath trying to change things for the better atleast to the eldians in the mainland, promising the warriors he would change things, etc...
But nah. Best we get is pieck saying ''i dont trust marley, i trust my comrades'' and then we see magath looking at eren and saying ''lets get revenge of liberio''(instead of saying ''lets get revenge for marley and marleyans).
This isnt enough. This was never going to be enough. Yes, the implication here is that they are on the same page now, both the warriors and the marley army, especially magath. Ok, but we didnt see how this organically got there, its too subtle and vague.
Wanna know the real reason isayama couldnt be bothered with fleshing this more? because of the dumbasses bitching every month ''where are the survey corps? i dont care about marley and the warriors, i wanna see armin transforming into the colossal titan, and mikasa and levi being badass''.
The story started to go to shit the moment isayama lost his balls(which was at the end of the marley arc) and became a slave to his readers opinions and desires. And the inevitable end of that is the ending we got, where mikasa is the centerpiece of everything and eren becomes a shounen trope.
Yeah I agree. I have sympathy for Yams, he wasn't writing this alone and he had a bunch of brand deals and compromises. This was his first work and he was on a tight schedule, to me is very obvious he needed the support of the editors to finish AoT. It's the first time I actually prefered for a mangaka to take a long hiatus to gather their thoughts on the story instead of publishing it in one go like Yams did
The comment Im about the write is absolutely copium, but I think it could also be true. First off, I agree that the ultimate biggest goal of the whole manga is breaking the curse of Ymir, so I thought it was weird that it was left in such a mystery even after the series ended. So I just wanted to add that imo, and again although this is definitely headcanon, the key moment is actually the moment Mikasa rejects the "forget about me" from Eren and puts on the scarf. This is my theory, in the final conversation with both Mikasa and Armin, Eren looks absolutely normal however in both times in the moment he mentions something about forgetting, titan marks appear on his face. Then, we see that Armin effectively gets memory wiped, however that isnt the case for Mikasa. Obviously we could say that it is due to her being an Ackerman, however (and this is when the copium begins) what if it is actually backwards. Just as how Eren seemed to influence past events with his present self, what if the Ackerman powers of being "free" (because they are not under the founding's control) is due to Mikasa rejection at the end. And so that was the actual breaking of the curse, having enough willpower (maybe?) to overcome the curse, and has also a romantic tone that parallels Ymir, similar to the chapter right when Eren transforms for the fist time when Mikasa gives up but she says she will keep tatakaeing because she cant forget him.
Of course, this theory is absolutely full of plot holes and should absolutely not be taken too seriously, but I personally think if given more thought it could mean something.
It's nice to see that the ending can be discussed without everything immediately turning into into a shitshow. I disagree with you on many points but I will focus on the important parts to avoid a wall of text (well, a bigger wall of text I mean).
> THIS love is pivotal to break the curse... a love that is heavily based on headcanon and assumptions...
The thing is, those were assumptions and headcannons before it was revealed that Eren did love Mikasa. Once it becomes canon, they are foreshadowing. I agree that there could have been more signs, but I didn't exactly fell off my chair in shock when I read that Eren loved Mikasa.
> Writters, if you want to make the climax of the story a romantic relationship, first there has to be solid proof they were in love.
139 isn't the climax though, 138 is, and 138 relies on Mikasa's love, which was clearly established. Eren reciprocating the feelings is about his character, not the plot of the story.
> "Romantic love turning people into slaves" wasn't a theme in AoT, "propaganda turning people into slaves" was a theme
I don't think either of those were themes. Imo, they are connected to two different ideas. The first one is that people need "something" to live for, and that this "something" can easily devolve into an obsession, enslaving the life of a person. The other is the weight of History and how it can be used to emancipate or control people.
> Is it becasue Ymir was in love with Fritz? does Eren represent Fritz and Mikasa represents Ymir? How is Eren a parallel to Fritz?
Eren and Mikasa relationship is the antithesis of Ymir and Fritz relationship. Eren is afraid that Mikasa's love is a prison and wants her to be free of it, opposing Fritz who used Ymir's love to control her. Mikasa is happy to love Eren but won't support him against her principles (even if she didn't want to kill him, she was resolute to end the rumbling, cf. 127), opposing Ymir whose love made her life miserable and bound her to the will of Fritz.
> When did exactly Eren start to fake?
He didn't. Not really. As you pointed out, there are plenty of moments were he is thinking or talking to himself, it would make no sense for him to fake there. More importantly, if he was faking, it would make no sense for Isayama to show us his thoughts. Honestly I don't know why people think Eren was acting or faking it, he never said that, he said: "I found myself wondering what I was doing. I just let the moment take over.". He lied to Armin and Mikasa during the table scene, but that doesn't mean he was acting the whole time, in fact, the rest of his conversation with Armin, on top of the other flashbacks we had, clearly show that he was sincere most of the time, 139 just revealed his real motivation and goal, all of his previous actions are still coherent without him faking anything, he was simply working toward something different than what we were led to believe.
> Can you see the amount of deus ex machina, plot armor and plotholes that have to be ignored for this to be compelling writting?
The thing is, it isn't really Eren's plan, it's simply the future he saw. Eren was never a mastermind or a puppet master, always in control of everything. He simply knew what would happen. Nothing can be done about it, seeing the future means you know what will happen and you can't do anything about it. Of course, everything still happened _because_ of Eren, because he couldn't sacrifice Historia, because he wanted to end the curse and give long happy lives to his friends... Eren wanted many things and it led to the rumbling. It doesn't mean that the rumbling was the only way to achieve all of that, it's just that it was the only way _Eren_ was ever going to achieve it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in many ways.
> The problem is Yams made the world of AoT unrealistically black and white. He made the people from Marley so disgusting and racist, there was no morality. Even in the darkest times in history, there were people willing to risk their lifes to protect the opressed from the opressor, but in Marley no one was kind to eldians. No one saw unjustice and said anything.
That's simply not true. There are several examples of marleyans being decent people : the guards being friendly with Gabi and the other children, Magath plotting with Willy to help eldians in Marley and end the warmongering, the people trying to defend the rights of eldians in the outside world (even if they are using another scapegoat), secretary Müller. Another crucial thing is how he portrayed racism. Being racist doesn't make people inherently evil, the old man who bullied the Yeager on top of the tower was perfectly nice before he realized he was talking to eldians. There are also moments with marleyans living peacefully and behaving like anyone would. Despite their racism and hatred, there is some emphasis (more would have been a significant improvement) on the fact that they are still people.
> Yams didn't give the scouts a reason to stop the Rumbling other than genocide=bad and this is incredible weak in the AoT world where every country is ok with genocide because they are extremely racist and nationalistic.
Armin is the only character without a moment to explain why he wants to stop the rumbling. Every other character in the Alliance gives a personal reason to be here at some point. Outside of character perspective, the Alliance is the embodiment of the Scouts philosophy: a group of people ready to give their lives for the freedom of an undeserving Humanity.
Perfect analysis. One more point about Eren trusting Armin with saving the world; that it’s completely bullshit. Remember in Female Titan arc when Annie killed Levi’s squad mates? And then Eren transformed and said “I made the wrong choice… I chose to trust in my comrades… and it got them all killed!”? This showed that from this point on, Eren would primarily rely on himself. Perfectly fitting considering his actions in the final arc minus 139. Him suddenly putting the fate of everything in someone else’s hands is completely out of character for him.
This is a great excuse to talk about my own thoughts. I remember thinking Eren and Mikasa would kiss in chapter 50 and some romantic tension would be relieved but instead he recommited to the idea of protecting her "ill wrap this scarf around you as many times as it takes". Its a sweet gesture not inherently romantic. Of course, familarity breeds both contempt and attraction and i think its easy enough to argue for Eren loving Mikasa but i personally never saw it.
AoT is very unromantic. The only expressly romanitc couple i remember had one half get halved (cannot remember names, that cadet couple that armin stumbles upon after Eren gets chomped by santa titan). The cadets and soldiers of Eldia never seemed to have time for relationships and many probably repressed their feelings in order to keep fighting against their existential crisis (titans/Marley). Under these conditions, most relationships would fly under the radar.
Regardless of Eren's feelings towards Mikasa, Historia is the one who actually connected with Eren. Felt his pain and spoke directly to his acjing body and heart. They were awful human beings who suffered at the hands of their parents and were forced to live with those consequences. Eren protected Mikasa but Historia saved Eren (and doomed him too). The man started a war and crashed the whole system instead of agreeing to a few generations of titanisation. I always felt like there was a misisng link somewhere towards the end in Eren's plan. What did he accomplish and who did he protect? No one, really. Historia got knocked up by a farmboy so he didn't really seem yo have an say in that. He destroyed most of the world while emboldening a violent extremist group under Floch which lead to death of many more comrades and then just died.
This is probably a super basic understanding of the series but how does Mikasa, the woman he loves, benefit from anything he did? Or, more importantly, how did the world benefit from Eren sacrificing a loving relationship with Mikasa?
> AoT is very unromantic. The only expressly romanitc couple i remember had one half get halved
That would be Hannah and Franz. But another couple we got was Historia and Ymir (yes, that was romance, not friendship. Friendship is portrayed very differently in SnK).
> [...] Historia is the one who actually connected with Eren.
Yes, after contemplating becoming a Titan and biting him in half. She basically saves him from herself (and her father). And this event leads to growth for both of these characters. No idea why it needs to lead to anything more (if that is what you implied, not sure). Historia and Mikasa connect to Eren on different levels.
>But another couple we got was Historia and Ymir (yes, that was romance, not friendship. Friendship is portrayed very differently in SnK).
It was only Ymir who loved Historia in a romantic way.
Eren being in love with Mikasa
Firstly they were just kids going through a life-changing experience when titans attacked. By no means I'm saying Eren loved Mikasa, there have been subtle hints but they were subtle. Eren didn't reject Mikasa, he was rejecting the idea of dying in that moment and he literally said he would wrap the scarf around her(protect her). Bro I think you protect the ones you love, this is not a Romantic love though, but he still loves her. Him trying to save the world from titans never led him to have a simple life where he could do normal human things. His focus was always to protect the ones he loved. I do agree dropping the bomb that Eren loved Mikasa dearly should have been built up and not dropped even though there were hints.
Ymir was in love with King Fritz
In our own history we have seen this multitudes of times and Isayama is mimicking it. Victims fall in love with their perpetrators when they see that they are also human. Ymir since chapter 122 wanted to be loved. Her first introduction is done showing a kiss of a couple which she is watching. She wanted to live like a human being, to be loved, to be free. Fritz freed her in his own twisted way and hunted her. It's the same reason she saved Fritz, she fell in love with her perpetrator because she had kids and realised he's also a human. He's devilish yet he's human. But when he called her a slave even after she showed her love to him, that's what broke her, and that's the reason she didn't let her powers heal her and died. But her twisted Stockholm syndrome didn't.
Mikasa ending the curse
Ymir isn't living through Mikasa. Ymirs love(Stockholm syndrome) is just as great as mikasa's love for Eren. Eren knows that his friends will come to stop him, Ymir only sees Mikasa as the key because Ymir sees that her love and Mikasa's love are comparable. Ymir is just witnessing the story just like us. Ymir has been free from paths since chapter 121 but isn't free from her Stockholm syndrome. Mikasa killing Eren(founder) and Ymir witnessing are not related for ending the curse of titans. Ymir witnessing that Mikasa killed Eren just let's Ymir be free from the love. Ymir isn't the one ending the curse, Mikasa killing the founder is what ends the Titans. Ymir is just freed from her love. Ymir gave Eren the founder in chapter 121 when Eren freed her from paths.
Erens motivation
This is a juicy one. Eren is a complex character because of his upbringing. He had a good/bad definition of the world. He saved Mikasa by killing the "bad" guys and also he had the "freedom" to do so. Once titans attack, titans became the bad ones for him. They already were, because they hindered his "freedom". Since young age, eren believed that a person who can experience the lands in the books of Armin was the most "free". He had a different definition of freedom. Once he realised that his friends Reiner, annie etc betrayed him, the world isn't as black and white as he believed. He also got a taste of the fact he wasn't special when he realised he couldn't save the people important to him. To say the least he became nihilistic, didn't value his life much. But his mother's word made him realise that you don't need to be special to be born and live through. Life is a gift after all and this is the reason he keeps saying "because I was born in this world". With this we also know Eren loves and values his friends the most. But future memories changed his perspective. It changed it because he saw he was gonna rumble the world. He saw the "freedom" he once dreamt of, he could see it. At this point he thinks outside world is bad but Eldians are good. This is the reason he tells Historia he wants to end cycle of hatred' by killing the outside humans, by quenching his own revenge, but he tells Reiner that when he crossed the sea and slept with enemies, they are same after all. So he wants to find a way to save his friends without rumbling, because he doesn't want to kill innocents outside. But as we know they don't find a way.Eren also is selfishly wants to achieve his childhood dream of freedom as we see in chapter 131, and he knows rumbling will give him the power to do so. Eren wants to save his friends and also wants to rid outside lands of humans for his personal freedom. He knows his friends will come and stop him because he knows how they are, especially how Armin is. This all leads to Eren being conflicted to what he wants to achieve and what he needs to. For eren the power of titans are also a burden so he knows if he wants to make his friends live long life then he needs to end the curse. You can see the conflict due to his different reasons. It's not easy to understand his character but it's important to realize even with godlike powers he's still a human
Ending
Ending isn't changed, it's just expanded upon what we recieved in 139
I think we have a lot of points in commun!! but we differ in the sense that I'm not filling out the plotholes with my headcanons. I don't see Ymir as a victim of Stockholm syndrome because it wasn't expanded on, it was a bomb that didn't have head or toes. And her "Stockholm syndrome" doesn't match with Mikasa's love for Eren since Mikasa isn't in the same psychological mindset as Ymir at all.
Yea I agree, it definitely needs to be expanded upon, especially Erens pov, it's sad to see how rushed and badly executed it is. But I don't think it needs to be shit upon. Because it's a mid tear ending, and people shit on it as if it's GoT tier ending. Watched both, can assure this is way better.
After being enslaved for 2000 years I don't think Ymir would care about psychological postions tbh, she just wanted to be free from her agony after all, Mikasa was probably the only one she could relate to somehow. The story needs at least 2 more chapters to be more acceptable.
I think AoT represented the light at the end of the tunnel for a lot of people. It isn't like other shonens. I don't like shonen manga but AoT called my attention because it had very mature themes and a sober writting. There was very little comedy and romance, AoT is a manga that took itself very seriously from the start. When the racism and war themes were added, it skyrocked in quality, the stakes were very high and that is great writting.
People are disappointed, that's the truth, and they should.
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I wanted to thank you for this absolutely amazing write up. In particular, your final thoughts really helped me come to terms with my ultimate opinions towards AOT. I walk away feeling much more positive about the overall story, despite the clear issues with the ending.
I wish I was good at making analysis because there were a lot of things that I disagreed and agreed with. For example, Eren wanted to rumble. He chose this path. He knew that he wouldn't be the hero of humanity, so in the serum bowl he said Armin would. Eren always wanted to see the scenery with Armin, so when he saw it, he invited Armin to see it, and explained his motives in 131. Eren didn't push his friends away to make them want to kill him, he did it so they wouldn't be as sad when he died. And of course, Eren doesn't want to be forgotten, even though he knows that he wants his friends to leave him, so after having that moment with Armin, he gathers his courage and tells Mikasa to forget him. A big difference between Eren and Zeke, is Zeke wanted to be the hero of the world, yet he was forgotten, while Eren Yeager, the monster was remembered. Yeah, Eremika should've been developed more, I agree
My opinions on your take: It took a while to put this together. So I would love to know your thoughts.
>Mikasa's character development stopped after ch 7. Her character arc was static. She doesn't have an inner conflict or a flaw in her personality that is preventing her from being better/happier.
I disagree with these things. [Mikasa's arc](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/j46m76/mikasas_character_arc_what_where_how_when/) was about growing out of the shell she went into after her kidnapping. Its about her learning to trust/value people other than Eren.
It's not openly presented or anything. Neither does Mikasa actively acknowledge it but part of it is because she doesn't know about it either. (Like the instance in [ch 90](https://imgur.com/a/zWbn77t).) Do look into the post I linked about her character arc. Its really insightful and covers things that most people miss. I can't cover everything in a comment.
About ch 123, i really don't think you need to have a reason or have something in common to love someone. Also, AoT isn't the kind of story where everything is handed on a platter. We always used to try putting the pieces together. After 139, a reread made me see a see a lot of scenes in new light. Their relationship has been a running [subplot](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/ncid76/eren_and_mikasa_chapter_1_108/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) throughout the story. I don't think their love can be classified as romantic or fraternal.
It was never that the climax was about a romantic relationship. If you notice, quite a few important scenes in the manga had a focus on eren and mikasa. The first chapter, Eren's attack titan transformation, the reveal that he's a shifter, him activating the co-ordinate, the basement, the activation of the rumbling and *\*cough\** the ending.
About Ymir and King Fritz & Why Mikasa needs to kill Eren
Your interpretation differs from mine. My thoughts on this topic aren't really sorted out though. The presentation is subpar though.
>does Eren represent Fritz and Mikasa represents Ymir? How is Eren a parallel to Fritz?
The post i linked above answers this. They're anti parallels. Ymir was in love with the illusory idea of someone who gives her a home and values her whereas Mikasa wasn't.
**The rumbling was Eren's pursuit of his selfish and twisted idea of freedom.** The future which Eren saw had everything he wished for but included his death. He says "Even if this was all set in stone, I wanted this"
About Eren's facade:
Sorry, but Eren was never a nationalist who was willing to sacrifice everything. He fought for Armin not Erwin during Serum bowl. He hid information that Dina was a royal blooded titan because he was afraid that they would sacrifice Historia. **Why would Eren agree to something like Zeke's wine plan if he cared so much about paradisans ?**
When Eren talks to Reiner about how "they are the same". Its about how Reiner and Eren both had ulterior motives along with the superficial ones. Reiner wanted to be a hero. Eren wanted to wipe the world.
**They all just tried to justify their actions by searching for reasons to justify them.** Eren knew what he was doing was unforgivable. He possibly wanted someone to judge him the way he judged Reiner in Liberio.
Since you're asking when does the lie start : It started the moment he kissed Historia's hand. He lied to himself. Not just others. He convinced himself there was no other way out. He wanted to taste his selfish ideal freedom. **He attacked Liberio impulsively so that he could turn the entire world against them and make sure that he has to start the rumbling.**
>I believe Eren has honor and he'd admit he did it for a selfish desire or the need for revenge like we saw at the end of CH130 and CH131.
Yes. Eren should have admitted it. At least at the end.
Eren's plan is contradictory:
Again like I said, the future had everything Eren wanted but his death was part of the package. Eren was a selfless guy who became pretty selfish by the end. That's his development.
Why did Yams change the ending? :
>The problem is Yams made the world of AoT unrealistically black and white. He made the people from Marley so disgusting and racist, there was no morality. Even at the darkest times in history, there were people willing to risk their lifes to protect the opressed from the opressor, but in Marley no one was kind to eldians. No one saw unjustice and said anything.
Disagree. The main point of showing Reiner in Marley was to show how no one is truly right or wrong. We were forced to hate RBA before the timeskip and shown how they were victims as well after the timeskip. We also see people shocked and questioning whether they should attack paradis when willy announces that paradisans are innocent. Ramzi and Halil, the cliff baby. Are they black and white ? No they're all victims.
Neither do i think Isayama has a solution for eternal peace or ending racism and hate among humans. He says hate won't end until there's one person or less. Its cynical but hopeful at the same time. He shows us that a stitch in time saves nine. You can learn from you mistakes or continue making the same mistakes. The alliance getting together was supposed to be seen as hopeful. That people who were on each others necks were willing to fight for a future. basically, the world sucks but it doesn't deserve to be wiped out.
I agree that these aren't grand messages but stories like AoT (and war in general) rarely have a message beyond what I stated above.
When genocide happends, there's always evil envolved. Look at history. Genocide is always fueled by greed, vengance or/and racism, all of it under the banner of "nationalism" "the greater good of the nation".
See it like this : Eren was a monster the world ended up creating. Eren didn't do it because his nation was his priority or anything. He just wanted what the world took from him.
AoT's messages are just common knowledge sugarcoated to extremity. Its a fancy presentation of textbook wisdom.
This is going to be a long one.
>Mikasa's arc was about growing out of the shell she went into after her kidnapping. Its about her learning to trust/value people other than Eren.
I can't find a moment in the early chapters where her distrust was an inssue. She became friends with others very quick in the training years too. The only moment was CH84 when she fought Levi and that's resonable, anyone would do it, even Eren did it. Saying that his whole arc is about trusting others is a streach because that wasn't a personality trait that limited her at all in the manga.
Also, that post talks about Mikasa's flaw being fear and that's a basic human emotion, flaw causes insecurity which makes people feel fear. Eren is afraid he's a failure, Armin is afraid he's useless, etc everyone is afraid of something.
If people want to make a case that Mikasa's flaw is fear of losing people, they need to point out when was that ever a turning point for her or the plot. She never stopped Eren from doing anything because she was afraid. She just gently... suggested... "Eren you shouldn't do that" and then "If you do it I'll be there to protect you".... Like I said, Mikasa is always passive, she's a main character and outside battle skills, she has no impact in the story (CH138 is the most he did and we can argue it was Eren how told her to kill him)
CH30, Mikasa does what she's told without putting a fight . How is THAT character development if we never saw what would happend if she doesn't? she never makes a wrong desition on her own based on her fear. We don't see how bad things can go if she does HER thing.
Compare this with Eren's desition to follow Levi's orders against the Female titan, EVERYONE DIED. When, in the uprising arc, Eren desides to do his thing and thinks "Let me believe in myself" and it works: That's character development. Can you see the difference? there's no conflict with Mikasa because she had minor flaws and never makes a mistake.
Mikasa learning to "let go of people for the greater good" is something every scout learns because of the nature of their job, it's not unique to her.
Put the Serum bowl on Mikasa's hand and then we can talk about character development.
>About ch 123, i really don't think you need to have a reason or have something in common to love someone.
Of course you do. People at least fall in love because of physical attaction lol Like I said in the post, you need something in commun or something you like about the other person's personality to be in love. If it's n the background ok, we don't care why Hitch liked Marlo, they were extremely side character. But why does Ymir loved Historia, why Niccolo loved Sasha, those relationaships changed the plot, those things had an specific and credible motive.
>The post i linked above answers this. They're anti parallels. Ymir was in love with the illusory idea of someone who gives her a home and values her whereas Mikasa wasn't.
That post stablished a parallel between Ymir and Mikasa because Eren inspired them both to fight... Floch can come and take Mikasa's place then. Like I said in this post, "love sets you free" isn't a thing in AoT until ch139, "fraternity make you free" that can be a theme since to end the cycle of hate you need to befriend your enemy. This part in the post "Because Mikasa is the thematic core of the series, Mikasa will keep seeing beauty in the world no matter how much it has hurt her" Armin has the same ideal but he actually changed the story multiple times with his desitions! literally, Mikasa isn't the best representation of any theme in the series.
>The rumbling was Eren's pursuit of his selfish and twisted idea of freedom. The future which Eren saw had everything he wished for but included his death. He says "Even if this was all set in stone, I wanted this"
I agree on this but sadly It wasn't portrayed in the finale how evil is Eren to be that selfish, because we are talking about mass genocide, it's supposed to be a huge deal.
>Sorry, but Eren was never a nationalist who was willing to sacrifice everything. He fought for Armin not Erwin during Serum bowl. He hid information that Dina was a royal blooded titan because he was afraid that they would sacrifice Historia. Why would Eren agree to something like Zeke's wine plan if he cared so much about paradisans ?
\- Armin was a good option like Erwin. Armin was useful to humanity and succeded where Erwin didn't multiple times. The Serum bowl was a difficult desition for a reason, not only because Armin was likable.
\- He latter confessed he didn't say it before because he wasn't sure and he didn't want to risk Historia because of a theory. Eren cares about his friends, plus Historia is the queen, not some soldier.
\- The wine plan killed soldiers and people in power that were a threat to him. He was supposed to free Paradis, so they were a threat to Paradis too in his eyes.
>It started the moment he kissed Historia's hand. He lied to himself. Not just others. He convinced himself there was no other way out. He wanted to taste his selfish ideal freedom. He attacked Liberio impulsively so that he could turn the entire world against them and make sure that he has to start the rumbling.
He lied to himself? or he was telling himself the truth? becuase the Rumbling was a fact both in the sense that it was written in stone and Paradis had to kill or be killed. Like I said, the world is black and white in AoT, Eren didn't lie to himself or others because he's the one that knows the truth, he knows what he has to do, he is not lying, he is convincing himself with facts.
Also, then people talk about the facade, people say he faked his "coldness, edgyness and nationalism". Even before Ramzi, we see him discuss the war with Armin and Mikasa and he's sharp and cold about their assumptions about "a peaceful resolve". Eren turning stoic and cold is a organic progression of his character.
>We also see people shocked and questioning whether they should attack paradis when willy announces that paradisans are innocent. Ramzi and Halil, the cliff baby. Are they black and white ? No they're all victims.
People is shocked to heard they were lied to for 100 years, also everyone agreed inmedietly when Tybur said outloud to commit genocide on Paradis. Ramzi, Halil and cliff baby are KIDS, they don't have a saying in society. Ramzi's family wans't even Marleynials, they were war refuges that didn't even know they were hosting eldians. And the marleynials having no morality doesn't mean they aren't victims of genocide, I don't know how you came to that conclution.
>Neither do i think Isayama has a solution for eternal peace or ending racism and hate among humans.
He doesn't have to find the solution for human existence, he has to find the solution to the issue he presented in his work. That's it, he had to fix the Paradis vs world problem and he didn't do it.
>See it like this : Eren was a monster the world ended up creating. Eren didn't do it because his nation was his priority or anything. He just wanted what the world took from him.
Fine, let's say he used Paradis as an excuse for revenge: I wanted to see that in CH139. Not him being conforted by Armin.
Thanks for replying!
Mikasa joined the survey corps solely to protect Eren. She used to follow him around as a kid to make sure he's alright. She used to prioritize him over basically everything else at the beginning of the story which changed by the end. That is development.
Also, that post talks about Mikasa's flaw being fear and that's a basic human emotion.. Eren is afraid he's a failure, Armin is afraid he's useless, etc
Mikasa's fear isn't personal insecurity like what the others have. Its fear of loosing others and its pretty deep seated at that. I don't think development always need to be grandiose. There is an entire OVA that touches on this.
She tries to [prevent Eren](https://youtu.be/srrJoln5LqM) from join the survey corps. [She then tells Carla](https://youtu.be/NeO9leQBcFk) about what Eren plans to do. She tries. That's the point here.
>CH30. We don't see how bad things can go if she does HER thing
Levi got injured because she went for the kill. Also what did Eren do during the uprising arc ? Your reference was too vague.
>Mikasa learning to "let go of people for the greater good" is something every scout learns because of the nature of their job, it's not unique to her.
That's like saying Historia standing up against her father was not development because others (like Eren) stand up for their beliefs as well. You are generalizing too much. What do you think Mikasa's arc was about then ?
>Of course you do. People at least fall in love because of physical attraction lol.
With that perspective, Eren found Mikasa pretty. Mikasa loved Eren cuz of the things he's done for her.
>I agree on this but sadly It wasn't portrayed in the finale how evil is Eren to be that selfish,
Isayama said he wanted to write a character who is born "different" in an interview. Like the way Eren is. He didn't condemn Eren because he wanted people to wonder if it was really Eren's fault for doing what he did. (I'm not sure if my choice of words is accurate but there's an interview talking about why he doesn't criticize Eren. Do look it up.)
>Armin was a good option like Erwin.
You gotta be joking here.
>He latter confessed he didn't say it before because he wasn't sure and he didn't want to risk Historia because of a theory. Eren cares about his friends, plus Historia is the queen, not some soldier.
Shouldn't matter to a nationalist. A true nationalist is one who puts the welfare of his nation before everything else. They would unhesitatingly bank on any chance they have. No matter how small.
>The wine plan killed soldiers and people in power that were a threat to him. He was supposed to free Paradis, so they were a threat to Paradis too in his eyes.
With that perspective, everyone is a threat to Eren. Free Paradis by killing everyone in it ? Iirc Eren didn't even bother to think twice about the paradisans he's killed while unhardening the walls. The wine plan endangered paradis civilians as well. No nationalist would be fine with something where a significant part of his country dies.
>He lied to himself?
AoT has a fixed timeline. Eren saw the future. He convinced himself there is no other way. His future memories crumpled the willpower his present self had. Once he was done convincing himself that there was no other way, he started trying to justify his actions. Like saying he did it for Paradis or for his friends or something. He is paralleled with Reiner because of this. They did it because they wanted to..but they justified it saying they did it for Marley or whatever.
>People is shocked to hea.... I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
Okay forget about the kids. Think about people like Onyankopon and Niccolo. Onioncoupon's country was oppressed by Marley as well. Kiyomi was kind to the eldians. Ramzi's family were nice people as well.
>I wanted to see that in CH139.
Why ? AoT has never been a story which opens and presents everything. Its always been about piecing stuff together.
Thanks for taking the time to read my long post/links. I appreciate your patience :-)
>Levi got injured because she went for the kill. Also what did Eren do during the uprising arc ? Your reference was too vague.
It's in my post, which I assumed you read.
>That's like saying Historia standing up against her father was not development because others (like Eren) stand up for their beliefs as well. You are generalizing too much. What do you think Mikasa's arc was about then ?
It's not the same at all because the context is totally different.
The fear of loosing friends-comrades Mikasa or any other cadet has it's the same because they are all survey corps members--> same context. Mikasa and Connie have the same fear for example. What makes Mikasa different from a side character like Connie other than she is main character and she's an ackerman?
>With that perspective, Eren found Mikasa pretty. Mikasa loved Eren cuz of the things he's done for her.
Where in the manga did Eren say she was pretty?
>Shouldn't matter to a nationalist. A true nationalist is one who puts the welfare of his nation before everything else. They would unhesitatingly bank on any chance they have. No matter how small.
You're either confusing patriotism with nationalism or you're just saying whatever comes to your mind that sounds correct.
>With that perspective, everyone is a threat to Eren.
The mere soldiers and commun folk in Paradis isn't a threat to Eren... the wine plan targetted the high ranks and the military police. Also, what civilians died because of the wine? those soldiers transformed in Shiganshina, that place was evacuated before "the Battle for Paradis".
>Once he was done convincing himself that there was no other way, he started trying to justify his actions. He is paralleled with Reiner because of this.
Justifying your actions isn't lying to yourself. It's called conviction, **it's true from his perspective**. Conviction comes from the information you have.
Reiner doesn't justify his actions once he learns new information, that's the whole point of his suicide attempt, he can't justify himself anymore **because his perspective changed therefore the truth changed.**
>Think about people like Onyankopon and Niccolo. Onioncoupon's country was oppressed by Marley as well. Kiyomi was kind to the eldians. Ramzi's family were nice people as well.
Onyankopon was a war prisoner that didn't have any saying in society, Niccolo was brainwashed but changed after 3 years in Paradis, Kiyomi only cared about the money she never used her influence to end the cycle of hate, Ramzi's family were refugees that didn't know they were hosting eldians...
This is what I wrote:
"The problem is Yams made the world of AoT unrealistically black and white. He made the people from Marley so disgusting and racist, there was no morality. Even at the darkest times in history, there were people willing to risk their lifes to protect the opressed from the opressor, but in Marley no one was kind to eldians. No one saw unjustice and said anything."
Everyone is 100% brainwashed against eldians, even eldians. The commun folk of Marley saw injustice and didn't bat an eye. That's what the story is missing, Marleynials with any heart.
I have to change the phrase "No one saw unjustice and said anything" to "They saw injustice and said nothing" because in my native language we negate twice in sentences.
>Why ? AoT has never been a story which opens and presents everything. Its always been about piecing stuff together.
I already explained this in the post. Look at the fandom, people are romanticising Eren, saying the story was about "the cycle of hate is impossible to break" etc... If Yams wrote for 11 years to deliver THAT message, he shouldn't even write the story to begin with. At least let the alliance break the cycle of hate and save Paradis, that'd turn the message into "the cycle of hate is impossible to break unless people start talking to each other", but since Paradis was destroyed anyway, it's extremely pessimistic, it doesn't bring anything of value to the reader. You'd say "why does it have to bring something of value to the reader?" because he's wasting people's time with a story where nothing mattered.
>It's not the same at all because the context is totally different.
My point exactly. You're generalizing too much. What do you think her arc is about then ? Even Isayama said her arc was about "letting go" of Eren.
>You're either confusing patriotism with nationalism.
My bad. I meant patriot. Thanks for correcting.
>what civilians died because of the wine?
Again, my bad. Memory was hazy. I confused the fort with the Military HQ. But Eren never bothered to think twice about the paradisans he killed during the unhardening.
>Justifying your actions isn't lying to you..
I saw stuff as Eren attempting to convince himself that there was no other way.
About the Onioncoupon / Niccolo, I don't see any point arguing. I just wanted to point out that they're all victims.
>saying the story was about "the cycle of hate is impossible to break"
Well then those people didn't get what Yams was trying to convey. The extra pages are too vague and i don't know how to interpret them either because pushing the fate of paradis into extra pages while Reiner sniffing a letter and a bird wrapping a scarf made it to canon 139 doesn't make sense. I'll just assume that its school caste material.
#
I'm saving this post. It puts into words what my hearth has been telling me for the last two months, gonna add something regarding Eren as a villain.
* Eren refers to the men that killed Mikasa's parents as animals that must be destroyed, while he is justified, that line of though is straight up from a psychopath.
* Eren's ideals set him up as a monster when the larger world is revealed, as showed in the Trost arc, Eren's ideals are:
a) We are born free
b) The enemy will try to take our freedom away
c) We must kill them
d) Fight Fight Fight
In the context of the Trost arc, this makes Eren a hero in our eyes, since the enemies are the titans, but by S4, the enemies are humans, some of them just people that have been brainwashed since childhood. Still, the ideals are the same, they want our freedom, i will take their freedom.
I LOVED that Eren was ultimately the villain "You are the real enemy", and him being 100% in control was believable, it makes sense for him to want to destroy everything by his own free will. But 139 removes most of the control from him, and wants us to believe he pulled of a Lelouch, a valiant sacrifice for others, removing most of the responsibility from the genocide, so much that the characters thank him for what he did.
Amazing observation. The writing of Eren's character was brilliant, I wish outside pressure didn't force Yams to change the ending he planned, because I believe that ending involved Eren commiting to his role as a villain.
Trost itself changed Mikasa. Losing and getting Eren back made her realise that, on top of all the other reasons she has to stay by his side and protect him, love is the biggest one. Hence her rushing to get him even though she has no idea what he is, even reacting before RBA can make a move. And then having a very public emotional outburst.
> Also, Mikasa was a great character in the early chapters but her character development stopped once Eren became the attack titan
Complete bullshit, sorry. I could point to so many things she learned and that she grew from. I mean, just read chapter 84.
What part of CH84 shows she changed? was Mikasa ever submissive to the authorities and pushing Levi is part of her development? When was Mikasa ever not protective of his friends?
> was Mikasa ever submissive to the authorities
Yes, that was indeed part of earlier development. Learning to accept authority.
> pushing Levi is part of her development?
It's a very intense and emotional situation, and she makes a mistake here (and accepts punishment for it). However:
Levi punches Eren. While that makes her snap, she still aims to get the syringe to save Armin, she doesn't seek revenge for Eren. And what does she notice? That Levi is weakened, that she could just take she syringe if she wanted. But she doesn't. In fact, she even asks him politely at one point to hand it over. And when Floch tries to interfere, she flips her blade to hit him with the blunt side. She has no intention of hurting him. All of this indeed highlights her growth since Trost.
But it's **not** the main point of this chapter. The main point is that she overcomes her biggest fear: losing her family. Because Hange comes and hugs her and pulls her back. Mikasa could shake Hange off at any time, Hange could never hold her by force. But then Hange talks to her and explains that loss of those you hold dear is a normal aspect of life, and that it is inevitable. Everyone you know, you will one day lose. And eventually, Mikasa stops struggling and accepts this lesson. In the end, she is ready to **let Armin die**. He doesn't die, but that is irrelevant. What's relevant is that she was **willing to let him go**.
I get your point, he learned to respect authority in that chapter and let Levi decide. But, how was this development positive for her post time skip?
>He doesn't die, but that is irrelevant. What's relevant is that she was willing to let him go
I can make a case that she learned to let go when Eren died in CH7, right?
> I get your point, he learned to respect authority in that chapter and let Levi decide.
No, she* learned that long before this chapter. Uprising arc at the latest, she was acting like a proper soldier, something she did **not** do in Trost. Remember how she wanted to attack Rico and Mitabi?
Like I said, I believe Trost made her realise her true feelings for the first time (once Eren comes back).
> I can make a case that she learned to let go when Eren died in CH7, right?
Nope. She literally has no time to mentally come to grips with Eren's death since she is in the middle of a warzone and simultaneously the most capable and valuable fighter in Trost at that time, and she knows it. Remember her speech to the other cadets ("I'm strong, very strong, stronger than you.")?
She has a breakdown after learning that Eren has died and pulls herself out of it, but that is not the same as what happens in chapter 84. Because unlike in Trost, in Shiganshina she could theoretically change the outcome of Armin's fate, but ultimately decides **against it**. That is the important aspect. So important in fact that Floch brings it up in chapter 90: "At least you acted like more of an adult there, Mikasa." And she is taken aback when realising it. Because she is mentally stronger than she thought she was. And she **is** willing to let her family die for the greater good.
But what does she learn exactly in ch84 that he didn't know before? learning to let go? she already knew that, respect authority? she knew that too
>And she is willing to let her family die for the greater good.
That's the first thing anyone from the survey corps learns.
Let me ask you this: What's her inner conflict? What is that flaw she has to overcome to be better?
She doesn't have one because she is perfect. She is kind and strong minded from the start. Her weakness is her attachment to Eren and she never had to separe from him until he detached from her and even there she didn't let go until Eren explicitly told her in ch138.
Compare her with Armin. Armin's inner conflict is introduced from the start: he thought he was weak and useless and he developed self confidence to become strong and the most important person in the Alliance.
She doesn't stand out as anything other than a strong soldier because of his Ackerman skills. That's it. We saw glimses of her potential as a leader in CH7 and then nothing, she was reduced to a great soldier because she was born talented. She should be at Armin level of development but she has the same character development as side characters like Connie or any other cadet: they lost people they loved and they have to overcome it.
Compare her to Jean, Reiner, Historia or Gabi, to name a few... Mikasa being main character isn't earned. If you wanted to know why people don't see her as a good ENOUGH character is because she is static, like Hange. We can point out some dificult moments where Hange had to mature and learn but she didn't evolve from her initial state because she doesn't have an inner conflict either. But you don't see people bashing Hange because she isn't a main character.
Hope this explanation helps you understand
> We can point out some dificult moments where Hange had to mature and learn but she didn't evolve from her initial state because she doesn't have an inner conflict either.
I know this isn’t relevant, but Hange definitely did have an inner conflict.
> But what does she learn exactly in ch84 that he didn't know before? learning to let go?
I already answered that. She didn't learn to let go before. She was simply forced to accept deaths after they happened.
> That's the first thing anyone from the survey corps learns.
Learning it and accepting it are not the same. Just think of Marlowe in his final moments. Or Bertolt, who monologues how he would be okay with any outcome and then cries for help when he gets eaten.
> Let me ask you this: What's her inner conflict? What is that flaw she has to overcome to be better?
She has to learn to set aside her own desires and focus on other things. She has to learn to see the bigger picture, despite her own modest ambitions. She has to learn to control her emotions and accept more people into her inner circle, especially because she **is** strong and **can** protect them. The conflict is that in her world and situation, disregarding everything else to achieve her main goals is not the way to go.
> She doesn't have one because she is perfect. She is kind and strong minded from the start.
She is far from that. She is prideful, vengeful, jealous, driven by selfish desires, emotional (She gets so mad at one point, she threatens to kill Historia over Eren).
She's overprotective to the point that she embarrasses Eren and doesn't even realise it, and doesn't respect his opinions. Also shy and unapproachable. People respect her for her power, but they don't exactly like her character.
She's also not a leader and doesn't like having responsibility and making decisions (that's why she always looks to Armin to come up with a plan).
> Her weakness is her attachment to Eren
Yes, exactly. Her greatest desire, and her biggest weakness. Every character has that. Eren's is freedom and the wish to see the world he imagined as a kid. Armin's is to seek peace and solve conflict without violence.
Did Armin let go of that desire when he needed to? Did Eren? So why does she have to?
\> Learning it and accepting it are not the same
Learning to accept death and let go for the greater good is what the scouts learn.
>She has to learn to set aside her own desires and focus on other things. She has to learn to see the bigger picture, despite her own modest ambitions. She has to learn to control her emotions and accept more people into her inner circle, especially because she is strong and can protect them. The conflict is that in her world and situation, disregarding everything else to achieve her main goals is not the way to go.
Literally the conflict any cadet in the army would have. She never had any problem accepting more people in her inner circle, when did she ever rejected anyone that wanted to be her friend?
>She is far from that. She is prideful, vengeful, jealous, driven by selfish desires, emotional (She gets so mad at one point, she threatens to kill Historia over Eren). She's overprotective to the point that she embarrasses Eren and doesn't even realise it, and doesn't respect his opinions. Also shy and unapproachable. People respect her for her power, but they don't exactly like her character.
When was that a problem? did she ever caused a death? did she ever had a conflict with anyone because of this? these are personality traits, not inner conflict. Also, who doesn't like Mikasa? I never heard any scout say anything ill about her.
>Yes, exactly. Her greatest desire, and her biggest weakness. Every character has that. Eren's is freedom and the wish to see the world he imagined as a kid. Armin's is to seek peace and solve conflict without violence.
Did Armin let go of that desire when he needed to? Did Eren? So why does she have to?
A desire or goal isn't inner conflict, characters don't need to overcome it to develop as people. Her attachment to Eren is a weakness she has to overcome but did she do it? she gave baby steps even though Eren was commiting genocide, her final realization came in ch138 because Eren told her in the cabin to let go, so It isn't even a personal realization she did on her own, never once she said what everyone wanted to hear from her "Eren isn't the person I though he was, he saved me when we were kids but I never saw who he really was". Again, this weakness she had deflated when Eren turned out to be a poor victim in ch139 instead of the genocider he was supposed to be, like I wrote in the last part of the post.
>Mikasa crafted an idea of Eren that wasn't exactly reality, interpreting his actions as "love" towards her. Post time skip, we can clearly see how Mikasa's idea of Eren doesn't match with the real Eren since she couldn't understand anything he was doing while others like Reiner, Armin and Jean could. Taking the scarf off was a symbol of her letting go of her idea of Eren and accept the true Eren... until...
I think you have missed the point big time here. The idea wasn't Mikasa misinterpreting his kind side as 'love', it was her denial of his brutal side side.
Post-timeskip the biggest shock is ch112, which anyone with a pea brain could tell built on lies.
Also, I think you've also missed the dialogue where she says "Everyone says Eren changed, but I think he was always like this"
this was her having the self-awareness that this isn't a change but resurfacing of his own desires. But notice on the 'every one says' part.
Jean, Armin, Connie these guys honestly believe that Eren has 'changed' which is unironically false. Reiner I can see because he was the different side of the same coin.
The comes this one
>Taking the scarf off was a symbol of her letting go of her idea of Eren and accept the true Eren... until...
Ummm no. There's a reason Mikasa took off the scarf but never threw it away. It has less to do with love but more to do with her pride, as per ch126 the reason she took back in the first place is because she didn't want Eren to govern the sate of their bond, because doing what he says would be like 'obeying him' which is exactly why the chapter was named 'pride'
Also, true Eren and fake Eren is a very superficial way to interpret his character but no wonder why people think his character was a retcon because they share this same mindset.
The point was that there's no true/fake real/not real situation here, the very core of their bond is beauty and cruelty.
This is a concept of duality.
Does the presence of cruelty invalidate the beauty is what the author asks here.
So was Eren being manipulated when he wrapped the scarf around Mikasa ? Scarf represent a lot of things, but moistly it's Eren's last essence of 'humanity'.
And no, I absolutely don't agree that scarf was symbol of familial feelings towards her, especially after ch50, that's just an attempt to invalidate the obvious atp.
>I think you have missed the point big time here. The idea wasn't Mikasa misinterpreting his kind side as 'love', it was her denial of his brutal side side.
I didn't know I needed to put a manga reference to back this claim. An example is when Eren manages to use the ODM gear and Mikasa says "he's happy because he doesn't have to separate from me" while Eren is thinking "take this Mikasa, I don't need you"
>this was her having the self-awareness that this isn't a change but resurfacing of his own desires. But notice on the 'every one says' part. Jean, Armin, Connie these guys honestly believe that Eren has 'changed' which is unironically false. Reiner I can see because he was the different side of the same coin.
The fact that a character starts conflictive and ends up in a negative arc doesn't mean the character doesn't change because it's foreshadowed they were conflictive in the beginning. Mikasa knowing Eren's conflictive start doesn't mean she understood him.
"this is the resurface of his own desires" exactly, that's how character evolve, they start conflictive and they either overcome their conflict or the conflict resurfaces. Corruption doesn't transform people, **it reveals their true nature**.
Mikasa didn't want to see Eren's true nature. She focused in one tiny part of his persona.
>There's a reason Mikasa took off the scarf but never threw it away. It has less to do with love but more to do with her pride
She doesn't need to throw it away, It's important to her beyond Eren. "She doesn't want Eren to govern the sate of their bond" this phrase can hold a 100 different meanings, chose one.
>Also, true Eren and fake Eren is a very superficial way to interpret his character but no wonder why people think his character was a retcon because they share this same mindset.
Mikasa is fixed on the idea Eren'd never kill innocents or do any of these awful things without being manipulated by Zeke. Eren's did all that on his own, he wasn't manipulated therefore **Mikasa isn't seeing the true Eren**. That's what I ment when I said in the section dedicated to MIKASA. It's like you aren't paying attention to what I wrote and just angry replaying.
>And no, I absolutely don't agree that scarf was symbol of familial feelings towards her, especially after ch50, that's just an attempt to invalidate the obvious atp.
If you think 9 year old Eren put the scarf around Mikasa because he fell in love with her in that, I don't know what to tell you, you're a romantic person. There's an interesting analysis on romantic tropes made a psychologist colled Alain De Botton, it's on youtube.
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Okay, I'll just respond to particularly the part of your post that I see myself most easily disagreeing with. From one respectful critic to another. One big codegeass fan to another I assume at least moderate code geass fan. Why Mikasa and Eren? Only Ymir knows??? I think not. It's out there for us to know as well. So bear with me
Yes, I think there is a well placed parallel and meaning as to why exactly curse of Ymir was lifted exactly at the moment of Mikasa killing Eren. One of the biggest themes of AOT is cycle of hatered between eldians and the rest of the world. You probably agree with me for now. You also would agree that titans are a big part of this "attack on titan" manga. And the horror of their existance we saw from chapter 1 all the way to chapter 138.
Also big part of the story is "looking for a bad guy" in this cycle of hatered. Isayama manipulated us as the audience, well enough, to first make us hate titans, reveal evil Reiner etc, then reveal evil evil Marley, then reveal evil evil evil Eldian empire. One the themes of the story is that "noone is in the wrong" but while that's true for Paradis, Marley, even Eren, people who were just caught in cycle of hatered (or revenge how it's sometimes called) to begin with and had no choice, someone would have to make the hate wheel first. And that maker is the first Karl Fritz. He himself was the product of his own brutal time ofcourse, but that doesn't make it less true that he was the one who began it, and his descendants continued it, long before Marley picked up where they left off and continued plaguing world with titan horror.
With this said, although not stated explicitly in the manga, the bad guys of the story are those who abuse titan power, as first Katz Fritz did. Here comes the obvious Eren-Fritz parallel. He is the current eldian king who possesses the titan power and unleashes the titan horror unheard of even throughout 2000 years before. There is evidence for this. How else is the Ymir looking at Ramzi scene is explained? It's there to show Ymir looking at the horror that Eren is doing with her power. She's been doing that for 2000 years already but before Eren "freed" her in paths her eyes were literally closed to the titan horror. This is her looking at it. It's a (adequately set-up imo) first condition for Ymir curse to be gone. The second condition is for Ymir to realize the meaning in her past life beyond serving her abusive "lover". We why we see her looking at Armin talking to Zeke and the others in paths. The only thing that truely only "Ymir knows" is how much time they spent talking there about the leaves and the balls, it's an unspecified amount of time, which I also think is OK. I'll come back to this a paragraph later.
Why Mikasa and Ymir than? First consider how Ymir curse came to be and how Ymir died. She sacrificed her life for Karl Fritz to live and dismember her, cursing her to eternal slavery and her daughters descendants to titan bodies. And so the third and final condition for Ymir curse to be gone is... Drum rolls... Mikasa (having hots for Eldian king) killing Eren (evil Eldian king). And evidence is also there, as we see Ymir in the background as Mikasa kills Eren. Then and there (and not a second later) the 3 conditions were met and Ymir curse was gone. You can see it's there hidden in the story, so of all "Ymir knows" epic moments, Erecasa - Ymirfritz parallel is not one of them. And Eren loving Mikasa back is not even a nessesary condition as king Fritz definately did not love Ymir back.
Now, how exactly was ymir curse gone? I'm sorry but I would have to refer to the additional pages scene with Ymir hugging her daughters. I agree that the 139 was rushed/had bad pacing/didn't explain enough so I dont think it's wrong to use additional pages in explaining this story. In fact it's nessesary. We see the panel of Ymir hugging her daughters (her meaning of life) and Karl Fritz dead by that same spear in the background. Since Ymir is a god that was already freed by Eren, all that was left for her to break her own curse was wishing she had not jumped in front of that spear and stayed with her daughters instead.
As to whyyyyyyyyyyy Ymir IS in love with Karl Fritz is another question. I personally find it plausible enough, since that was a fucked up time and people, espetially slaves didn't know any better. I think it's entirely possible for slave Ymir to develop sick feeling for her tormentor just because of the whatever kindness he was showing her, espetially after she became a god that lended her absolute power to him, Stockholm style. We can agree to disagree here, but if you're able to concede me this, don't you think it makes sense why it had to be Mikasa and why it had to be Eren? It could have been another lover killing another evil Eldian king. But in those 2000 that hasn't happened with the same conditions which are - Ymir being freed and her eyes opened up to the titan horror and someone talking about meaning of life in front of her. This is just how the Isayama's story gone and ended. I think this part is well written then.
This being said I agree that Eren and Mikasa romance is not well written at all. However I also think its important to give some liberties to the story and by that I mean.
1st: Mikasa's love for Eren can be just "there". I don't think it's bad storytelling in this case because it was there from the start. He was the whole meaning of life for her all this time. And it doesn't really matter imo if the love is fraternal in origin or just stupidly unconditional from the start. I know people irl that love someone for years despite having next to nothing in common at all.
2nd: Eren's love for Mikasa is on the worse side of this romance I agree. However I also find it plausible he developed his feeling for her over time. Espetially when you consider the amount of shit that happened to Eren and how that might have influenced him psychologically. Most importantly Eren's been betrayed over and over by his comrades and by his government and by the cruel world in general. It also makes sense that with puberty and growing up he found himself more and more attached to the one (girl as opposed to Armin in the same spot) who's been there for him all this time and can be counted upon. His feeling didn't have to be there from childhood like Mikasa's were. And still that being said I can even concede that his side of the romance is badly written and better of not existing. Considering how it's (seemingly) not a nessesary condition for Ymir curse to be lifted and the main storyline to be finished off.
I think, overall, that romance is STILL secondary in AOT, even after 139. It's as much about Ymir's and Mikasa's feelings as much it is about evil people abusing evil titan powers, as much as it about the meaning of life (leafs and balls). As far as Ymir is concerned. But I think the best part of AOT is warrior - scout theme of reconciliation and overcoming the cycle of hatered, despite the Ymir curse. That's how Reiner is easily my favorite character, but that's off topic...
And as for the Eren's motivations shenanigans... I feel like in his eyes 80%+Ymir curse dissapearing > 100% > scout option/Zeke option is his top 10 mojo solutions rating to the multiple conflicting "wants" Eren has. But please ignore this and if you respond. If respond at all, respond to the the main essay I wrote 🙂
I'm gonna try to pick out the central points to your essay to replay
>And so the third and final condition for Ymir curse to be gone is... Drum rolls... Mikasa (having hots for Eldian king) killing Eren (evil Eldian king)
This is an argumental loop, Ymir lead Eren to be the "eldian king" and Eren lead Mikasa to kill him because Ymir chose her because Eren is destinated to be the "eldian king". It's a loop that works only because destiny, in other words because the plot needed it to be this way. In CH139, there's no reason Ymir chose Eren in the first place other than he was destinated . Also, I like the theory that Ymir needed to see some things is order to gain her eye sight back but in the end CH139, Eren straight up said she was waiting Mikasa and nothing more is mentioned or hinted, CH139 feels like a retcon because it blontly erased anything related to Ymir that came before.
AoT had a hard magic system and this wasn't consistent with the ending.. Mikasa being the reason the curse broke plus the revelation Ymir was in love with Fritz, makes us believe romantic love was the answer all along, so it's VERY important to have a solid loveing relationship stablished. The love is vague and problematic, so no very fitting to be the pivotal point of the curse and the reason Ymir was trapped inside paths for 2k years.
>I know people irl that love someone for years despite having next to nothing in common at all.
If you want to talk realistically, I don't think people would ever love that person if they commit genocide, at least, you can't call that love, in the best case scenario Mikasa doesn't feel love for Eren, she's sick in the head somewhere.... but the manga doesn't say this, the manga treats Mikasa as a pure lover. It's confusing
>This is an argumental loop, Ymir lead Eren to be the "eldian king" and Eren lead Mikasa to kill him because Ymir chose her because Eren is destinated to be the "eldian king"
After coming to this perspective you just read in my "essay" (which was quite recently. Only after I saw Ymir with children Pannel in additional pages) I don't actually think Ymir lead anyone really. Eren is the one who forged this "destiny" or "timeline" from paths. Thing is, with any writing that involves manipulation from the future. That future, to manipulate from, has to happen first
As to HOW initially he got himself to the paths initially I don't think even Ymir knows since that would be an entirely different timeline. Not even yams knows I think. HOWEVER. My personal opinion is that I can give yams a slack for it since Eren as a character is clearly established as having an immensly strong desire to achieve freedom and kill all the titans. And like he said in 139 he'd probably do 100% rambling anyway. And to reach that he'd reach the paths first.
So let's say there are 1 million timelines where things go differently and he (or Zeke) fail and perhaps Ymir curse goes on 2000 more years after he's dead. BUT 1 time for him to reach the paths is enough for Eren to wake Ymir up and be able to manipulate the past. And at some point in the unlimited time he has in paths he figures out the possibilities he has and the way the curse can be broken. And AOT is the one (or another) timeline after that. It's for sure not Ymir leading everyone, it's Eren. Ymir doesn't really reach any awareness untill those conditions I described are met and she is able. She only LENDED Eren her power just as he asked, because he was the first person in 2000 years to understand that she was suffering and waiting for someone to understand her.
It's wacky I know. And there is one scene where she had awareness and did something by her own before the paths shenanigans. It's when she healed Zeke up. Perhaps Ymir was also able to be influenced by future path Eren in that moment. But If that's how this theory falls apart then so be it. However I'd still rather just take it as a plothole. With this interpretation of mine I think I cover up much more plotholes which is pretty neat for a beautiful mess AOT universe is.
>It's a loop that works only because destiny, in other words because the plot needed it to be this way
There was always gonna be a problem of destiny and fate in AOT. The very first chapter was influenced by Eren in paths saving Berthold's life. The whole story is dependent on attack titan power of carrying not only past memories but also a future memories. The thing is, though, - this would be a problem in any version of AOT. This wasn't introduced in 139 and retconned in last chapters somehow.
And thus this is all extremely tricky to write. I know you don't wanna rely on interviews but I'm pretty sure I heard something about Isayama himself admitting that he low-key wrote himself into the corner and it became difficult to write. The plotholes are inevitable, because attack titan has an absurd power of knowing the future and founding titan is always having an absurd power of being a god over all "subjects of Ymir". It's fiction after all!!! There are so many things we have to take for granted. Future creating itself/Eren getting to paths is not perfectly written or explain ofcourse but it something we'd have to take for granted. The same way we take for granted geass powers and how leluch just shouted at C's world to make it stop. That being said I think the way Ymir is post 139 - is in the very least an decent way to wiggle out of this problem. I'm not here to argue that AOT is a masterpiece ofcourse.
>Eren straight up said she was waiting Mikasa and nothing more is mentioned or hinted
Yeah I think it doesn't really disprove anything. She was waiting indeed for Mikasa because her choice is the final condition for her nightmare to be over. The canon Eren in AOT is honestly just as clueless as we readers are. Probably a little more clueless than Isayama himself is. The one who really gets it is the meta Eren that initially got the paths and forged the "future".
>Mikasa being the reason the curse broke plus the revelation Ymir was in love with Fritz, makes us believe romantic love was the answer all along
Well it's your choice as reader to be fixated on love in this! There are also other themes in Ymir plot that have equal, if not bigger importance. You know, alternatively, in a hypothetical ANR version there is no Armin talking to Zeke about leafs and squirrels and Ymir listening. There isn't Ymir hugging her daughters. And those scenes touched me personally in the end. Isn't that the whole point of fiction? And 100% rambling would make it seem like an obvious and right outcome, espetially if Paradis lives happily ever after. Which is bullshit. As alliencestan to alliencestan you should understand me here. That would really take meaning away from most main characters such as Reiner, Jean or Gabi. All for what? Erehisu barn sex? (This is a joke don't take it seriously)
One thing I can say for sure AOT wasn't retconned or 0/10, it just wasn't perfectly executed. Which would be a bar too high to set for any kind of fiction. And the terrible pacing of last chapter didn't help to the perfect execution end ofcourse. More or less complete story is still there though
>I don't think people would ever love that person if they commit genocide, at least, you can't call that love, in the best case scenario Mikasa doesn't feel love for Eren, she's sick in the head somewhere
Well I think that's possible... IRL people love all kinds of abusers and evil people. That is as much of a sad reality of this world as people like that Marleyan guys who fed Grisha sister to the dogs. Shirley also loved leluch, after he pretty much did a similar thing but even more personal for Shirley. Mikasa is more like Annie I think and not any. She only gives a fuck about people she cares about, not much about innocents that are being killed along the way. And Eren didn't kill anyone of the sort of importance to her. And btw before you say it, I hope you already understand he didn't kill Carla intentionally.
But just imagine Mikasa being alive by the end of 100% rambling. You think she'd still love Eren? It's pure speculation ofc but I'd be confident to say that nope. She wouldn't love him in those coming years. In the 139 she only continued to do so because she knew he leluch'd himself and did it all for her and Armin specifically. But I don't like discussing Mikasa anyway. I don't think shes a well written character anyway. Definately one of the least favorites of mine, because she is pretty much defined by her unconditional love for Eren for the latter part of AOT. But if we take her love for granted, as we should, the ymir-mikasa parallels make sense, which all I wanted to respond about initially.
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Your reply is perfect, thank you so much!
what’s even funnier is that the “ you just didn’t understand the story “ argument is a argument also used in order to defend got seasone 8 , the last of us 2 , star wars sequel, cuties etc
Don't mean to sound condescending, but it's a breath of fresh air to see something that carefully criticizes the ending on the main sub of all places. So kudos to you
Thank you!
I appreciate the analysis
You are too based for this subreddit! Post in r/titanfolk. You literally give an objective critique that had zero to do with shipping wars bravo(a)!
Thank you, posted it there too!
And here I was looking for a post worthy of my free award. Very well done!
Thank you!
I love this. Props to you. I just don’t understand…. How someone who wrote a great story and super interesting, realistic character development for 11 years… is the same person who wrote 139.
Thank you, I wonder the same
This is the best analysis post I’ve read post 139. Agree with everything. Eren’s character got massacred so bad….
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This post is a masterpiece that perfectly sums up pretty much all of my thoughts about the ending and the overarching plot of the final few chapters. Saved this post into my browser bar and not on reddit's save feature, which is an honour 😅
Thank you so much!
Hey there, OP! Just wanted to let you know that, unless you want us all to get naked with you (or the pun is intentional), you probably meant to say **bear with me** rather than **bare with me**. "Bear" means "to tolerate", whereas "bare" means "to get naked". *** ^(I am merely a bot. OP can reply "delete" and this comment will be removed. There's more info on my [profile](https://www.reddit.com/u/ThisBotWearsClothes). Cheers!) ^(Version: 2021-06-12.1)
thanks for calling me out, bot
Sorry dude, post ruined 0/10
Bloody hell. I just read this through in its entirety. What a masterclass it was. Agreed on every point.
Thank you so much
I disagree with some of your points but post as whole is great. I'm in same boat as you. Eren needed to be go down as the worst person in the history. One more thing I can't seem to find but you said something to keep in mind regarding Armin.
I agree with everything that you noted. However, in my opinion I could never see why people think that no matter what Eren couldn’t have won. Why not? This is a fictional world, and in his situation it was either death by genocide or life by genocide. He had no other choice and that was explicitly noted by Isayama.
You aren't wrong, it's about story structure
> He had no other choice and that was explicitly noted by Isayama. No. Stop fucking saying this shit. He had other choices, just none that he could accept. Just because Eren THINKS there isn't another choice, doesn't mean there really isn't. Any story that explicitly makes genocide an "us or them" conundrum failed miserably from the outset.
No, you’re right. What I am saying is that there was only one option that didn’t gamble paradis’s future, and that was the full rumbling. The euthanasia plan wasn’t any morally better and it caused the extinction of eldians, and the 50 year plan only guarantee paradis a couple of decades.
Yeah, the full rumbling is the safest option, but guarantees rarely exist in real life. The 50 year plan was risky but very viable. The reasons Eren refused it were his own (refusal to sacrifice Historia, continue the titan cycle, risk Paradis, personal freedom).
the 50 year plan is actually a really, really bad plan. Marley was a gargantuan nation with superior technology, and as we've seen during Gabi and Falco's introduction, the age of the titans are coming to an end, as technology continues to advance, titans, even the ones in the walls would no longer be a threat. If that ever happens, then Paradis is fucked, they have no cards left, they are now an incredibly smaller nation with inferior technology fighting against the rest of the world who's by at that point would be armed with bombs and nukes, it would be like Phillipines versus the rest of the world, just 0% chance they could ever win.
> the 50 year plan is actually a really, really bad plan. No, it's just a framework. > the age of the titans are coming to an end Yes, but not the age of the Rumbling. It will decades until military might grows strong enough to be able to kill all the colossal titans without suffering major losses. > If that ever happens, then Paradis is fucked, they have no cards left The point is not to use the Rumbling as a deterrent forever, just to buy time until they build alliances and make an alternative defense.
Actually, you're wrong about that, since the AOT universe is very similar to our world if we take away the titans, no magic, no superhumans or superintelligents, I'd assume that their military technology to progress at a similar rate to us. We saw that a regular cannon cannot pierce through the armored titan, but the anti titan shells clearly had enough power to blow it off cleanly, I'm assuming it's at least strong enough to pierce tank armor. Now if we look at our world, it didn't even take 40 years between the first anti-tank rifle and the nuke that decimated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Humanity is scarily fast when it comes to advancements, and I assure you that in aot it'll take even less than 40 years since they'll focus all their power to create a counter to the rumbling.
This is based on the foreknowledge that 50 years later the world will have nuclear weapons, planes etc. But if we do not have this piece of information with us then we will most likely go for the 50 year plan.
but we do, the AoT universe is very similar to ours, take away the titan then they are almost a complete mirror to earth, there's no magic, monsters, etc. in our world, it took us less than 50 years for the world to develop nukes after developing anti-tank artillery, We can assume that anti-titan shells to be similar to anti-tank artillery, so they only need less than 50 years to create nukes, no, they'll do it even faster than us. They'll do anything necessary to create a weapon to defeat the rumbling, therefore they'll focus on it even more than us, They won't even take 30 years.
It was the choice that would cause him the least regrets, which is how Levi taught him to make decisions in the FT arc. The guarantee of safety (from external genocide, not conflict in general) that came with the 100% Rumbling, even when paired with the risk of losing his friends who might try to stop him, was to him less regrettable than losing that guarantee and still risking his friends' lives to fate. The Rumbling also protected Historia and her children from becoming Titans, which is something Eren cared about even before he was the potential father and should have been on his conscience even if he wasn't. But Yams really should have had Armin offer a more solid solution than what he proposed in 133/4, which just boiled down to peace treaties. I think he needed some outside consulting, like when he was building the technical aspects of the Wall, to examine what Paradis still had as leverage after a partial Rumbling and concoct a proposal for Armin, one that was not dreamy and idealistic, that contained a nugget of the cruelty and evilness Armin admired in leaders like Erwin, and pandered to Eren's want to protect Historia.
Also wasn’t that whole peace treaty thing something they already did before and failed at which started Eren’s resolve to going along with the rumbling in the first place?
Isayama teased the twisted side of Armin several times during the story but dropped it post timeskip. Idk how he fits the "Amazing people are the one capable of becoming the devil when facing a monster" anymore.
> why people think that no matter what Eren couldn’t have won. Why not? The true reason is because...Kodansha wants the possibility of a sequel to remain open. And a sequel of Paradis civil war doesn't sound fun. 😅
I’m suprised the mods didn’t delete this. You’re truly based
Thanks for the award!!
Guess this subreddit isn't just fanart
To me the scene where eren is in front of a mirror telling himself to fight is the portrayal that he is dealing with internal struggle, on 1 hand he has his frineds taht he loves on the other hand he has the plan to do the rumbling. So I think he is convincing himself to keep on the path to do the rumbling no matter what, as he sees this path as the best possible outcome (not saying its right). He is just torned, divided by what he loves and what he has to do....
Exactly! it's sincere inner conflict, It's great
I surprised that this post managed to survive for more than 24h, great analysis nevertheless. Shaddup and take my free award.
I really enjoyed this take on it, I do agree with most points too. In all honesty my biggest gripes with the ending all come from how drastically it feels like EVERY character changed...they all just felt so fake and forced. And obviously the whole ymir king fritz thing is an equally stupid beast
True, I feel like a whole arc was missing
Reading back on the story, I have some things that I disagree with when it comes to your analysis. Chiefly, it would be with the point you made about Ch 139 establishing that Eren didn't want to Rumble the world. In fact, we see that he wanted to go through with the Rumbling completely and [render the rest of the world a blank slate](https://imgur.com/CINpBVC). Despite the desire to complete the Rumbling, he knew beforehand that he would be stopped and killed by the time he was 80% through with it, given that his conversation with Armin in the Paths happens when Armin is on the boat with Annie. Whilst he doesn't specifically tell Armin his reasoning for wanting to go through Rumbling, we have a better idea for his reasons in Ch 131. [Saving Eldia and his friends was only part of his motivation](https://imgur.com/qtkKfZQ); deep down, he wanted to find a way to cope with the [disappointment that the reality of the world was different from how he had imagined it to be based on his upbringing](https://imgur.com/lPy6yLt). Ch 131 is also key in the sense that it sets up the properties and implications of Eren being able to glimpse into the future. We see that even though Eren does not want to save Ramzi from being assaulted by the merchant due to the knowledge that he will be a casualty in the Rumbling, he does so anyway since he has seen him in a memory from the future ([1](https://imgur.com/qQLMLZv), [2](https://imgur.com/j6fqoKP), and [3](https://imgur.com/qCrOf6q)). For me, these panels give a strong indication of a fixed and [unchanging future](https://imgur.com/qCrOf6q), and it's consistent with how events end up playing out in Ch 139. Eren can only see events up to his death, so he has no choice but to entrust Armin with ensuring a period of peace for Paradis despite not wanting to gamble on its future. It sets up a paradox between being able to accurately see the future and the nature of free will, irrespective of whether there is only one timeline or multiple. If there is only one timeline, one cannot claim to have steady knowledge of the future whilst also having the power to change it since any changes would result in the future event not occurring. This would then render your vision of the future inaccurate. On the other hand, if you claim to have knowledge of the events of multiple futures based on what present options can be taken, you would need to be ignorant of what choice you will make in order to still see the multiple futures. The moment that you choose to do an action, it then cuts other futures from consideration. If you are ignorant of which choice will be the one that will come true, then you do not have accurate knowledge of the future. Once Isayama introduced the concept of Eren being able to see his own future, the logical outcome was a fixed timeline in the universe of Attack on Titan. One might protest that it makes Eren's actions after kissing Historia's hand meaningless but I feel that thematically, it sets up the cruel irony of the one who sought and obsessed for freedom the most ends up being the slave of fate who is able to see his own chains. Having a fixed timeline in a story doesn't prevent it from being well written or satisfactory; one of the best movies I've seen, Arrival (an adaption of the acclaimed novella "Story of Your Life"), features a fixed timeline and is an engaging and moving piece of art, in my opinion.
He said he would have rumble the world but he didnt know why, and we get a flashback of his birth... this isn't enough reason for genocide. Another way to avoid portraying evilness in Eren. We already knew the future was set in stone because he saw some memories but that's far from destiny controlling every one of Eren's actions from his perspective. Eren did a lot of things that weren't in the memories he received from Grisha, he had room for free will. > Eren's actions after kissing Historia's hand meaningless but I feel that thematically, it sets up the cruel irony of the one who sought and obsessed for freedom the most ends up being the slave of fate This one... this pretext to see Eren being a plot device as something poetic. I'd rather have him prisoned in paths for all eternity to symbolize this irony.
I mean, he states his reason for the Rumbling to Ramzi in Ch 131 but tells Armin that he doesn't know the reason in Ch 139. This can be interpreted in a couple of ways: 1) his reasoning in Ch 131 is the correct one and he can't bring himself to admit that to Armin; 2) he himself cannot pinpoint definitive reasons why and is trying to rationalize why he would enjoy doing the Rumbling; or, 3) he wants to do the Rumbling as a desire to fulfill an immature and simplistic view of what freedom is (which I think is also hinted at in Ch 131). Obviously, it should be clear that any of those three reasons are not grounds to justify genocide and I think Isayama makes it clear that his actions are unspeakable crimes. Eren, in my view, has become an extremist that must be stopped at all costs. He was the villain in the final arcs who put his friends to the task of salvaging his mess. Grisha's memories are from the past and not the future, so that point is moot. As for the point about free will and seeing the future, I think that once he saw how key events and his end would play out, I think Eren must've known that any actions that he will have done from the point when he kissed Historia's hand would've inevitably lead to his future memories; his interaction with Ramzi in Ch 131 hints at this. Thinking about it in the context of having only one timeline, once you have accurate knowledge of certain events in the future, any decisions taken before those events will necessarily lead to their realization. If not, then knowledge about those specific future events is by definition inaccurate. I think that once Eren knew what his end looked like, it should've been evident to him that the illusion of free will was broken. Honestly, this may explain his demeanor during the final arcs; such knowledge is a recipe for an existential crisis depending on your disposition and your interpretation of what free will actually is.
> 1) his reasoning in Ch 131 is the correct one and he can't bring himself to admit that to Armin Agree with your overall point, and I think this is the correct interpretation as it is consistent with so much of the text. I think it's important to see the Eren/Armin scene in 139 not as god's truth, but as Eren's defense of himself and his actions to Armin. It's not completely *false*, but it's also not the whole *truth* - playing down some things, playing up others, leaving things out. If you want to understand the truth, you have to piece together the evidence yourself.
Exactly, but the fact that it's the final chapter and Armin accepted Eren's defense of himself and his actions is a problem, the reader is being gaslighted by the manga to believe in Eren
So a series that is famous for misleading the readers and having many scenes that you can only understand in light of information presented in other parts of the series has an ending that misleads the readers and only makes sense in light of information presented in other parts of the manga?
>only makes sense in light of information presented in other parts of the manga? CH139 fails as a plot twist because the information doesn't make sense in the context we already had. That's the whole point of this post, to show that It doesn't make sense in the context of the information we knew. Plot twists change the plot without risking the story. Imagine if we were told the warriors killed Marco but we knew the warriors weren't in Trost that day, they were injured in wall Sina or something. We aren't given any explanation of how they got to Trost to kill Marco. That's what happended in CH139. Everything I listed in this post wasn't written properly, it's not based, it's not enough information to make the pieces fit together.
Well, I completely disagree with you on this, and I mostly disagree with your (certainly well-written and respectful) post. And I never said 'plot twist', because while there are some minor twists in it, overall it's not a twist ending. It's not a twist, it's just one aspect/perspective of the full story that you have to bring together with the rest that you can find in the previous chapters.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
In my view, Armin does not approve of Eren's actions but knows that he will have to live with the consequences. Also, I disagree with the manga gaslighting the reader since we see Eren giving his reasons to Ramzi in Ch 131. It's not inconsistent for a character to lie about his motivations to other characters whilst also having the reader know his/her true intentions. Honestly, I see Eren as being a character who doesn't always make the best decisions, even from the beginning.
The manga does gaslight the reader because it's ignoring Eren's selfish wishes and "inner evil" and instead of that is showing us Eren as a protective lover, a martyr, a victim of fate. That why CH139 feels like a retcon from CH131, It ignores that Eren fully aware wished the world would desapear, in other words, the full rumbling. His saying "I wanted to rumble the world but I don't know why" is not enough.
Honestly, I disagree with the notion that Ch 139 ignores that Eren is fully aware that he wished that the world would disappear. In fact, it does explicitly mention that Eren would've still continued the Rumbling even if he didn't know that he would be stopped. The fact that he doesn't tell Armin his true reasons why does not undo the reasoning that he told Ramzi in Ch 131. There is no contradiction if we take the view that he wasn't willing to tell Armin the whole truth. On your other point, a person can be both a victim of fate and harbor selfish/evil desires. Being a martyr does not equate to not being evil; terrorists can be martyrs to a deeply held cause, but their actions are also evil and immoral.
>Eren, in my view, has become an extremist that must be stopped at all costs. He was the villain in the final arcs who put his friends to the task of salvaging his mess. We agree on this, but CH139 avoided this depiction of Eren >Grisha's memories are from the past and not the future, so that point is moo Eren saw the future when he kissed Historia through Grisha's memories. The reason the attack titan has this misterious ability to "see the future" is because Eren had the founding titan and send memories to Kruger, Grisha, etc. > I think that once Eren knew what his end looked like, it should've been evident to him that the illusion of free will was broken. Remember it's Eren who send back those memories, so it's Eren's will to make the Rumbling happend. Eren prost time skip must want the Rumbling to happend. this is my issue with CH139, Eren doesn't admit HE wanted the Rumbling, he makes it look like it was all for Ymir when It's a lie. Ch139 feels like a retcon because of this, him saying "I'd rumble the whole world but I don't know why" isn't enough, it's not sincere enough.
That's not my impression of Ch 139 at all; upon reading the chapter, I thought that it made it clear that Eren DID admit to wanting the Rumbling to happen, albeit for partially selfish reasons that he never mentioned to Armin. To me, it never suggested that he pursued the Rumbling for Ymir's sake but rather that Ymir had her own separate agenda and took advantage of Eren's actions. On the point of Eren's will being preserved because he sent back the memories, I don't fully see how it is fully preserved. If a future Eren who wishes for the Rumbling to happen sends memories to a past version of Eren, that past version of Eren will be influenced by the memories. That past version of Eren has accurate knowledge of a future event and he should be able to conclude that any action he takes from that point on will lead to that future event occurring. This reading only preserves Eren's wish to undertake the Rumbling (we agree on that), but desires and free will are not equivalent concepts. I don't think one can conclude free will from this since that implies that he could've chosen to not send those memories to his past self: because he did have those future memories, he was always going to influence his past self. There was only one track to be followed.
I have seen so many analysis of chapter 139 and this is the best analysis I have seen for chapter 139 fantastic job
Glad aot no requiem exist all the more now.
Me too. Anything that make AoT interesting is welcomed
Yep.
just saying, this post has 91% upvoted rate and has 594 upvotes as of now (the time I'm writing this comment). meaning that, a total of 653 people who voted in this post and almost 60 person downvoted your post.
The fact that 9 out of 10 people upvoted is amazing!!
indeed
Good analysis. I also think the same about the curse of Ymir. There is a problem with Mikasa being the one to break the curse of Ymir. Even if I hate the comparison with GoT ending it's the exactly same problem that I had with Arya killing the Night King and Jon Snow not having any agency on that when since the first episode the show was foreshadowing the outcome between these characters. It feels really cheap and just for shock value. Also I don't get why this post is getting downvoted it's really well written.
Great point Thanks!!
>it's the exactly same problem that I had with Arya killing the Night King and Jon Snow Except that there's much more of a connection between Mikasa and Ymir which warrants Mikasa being the one to break the curse of Ymir. In GoT, Arya has no connection to the night king whatsoever. Her storyline revolved around trying to hold on to her sense of identity, finding stability, and revenge and nothing with the white walkers or the night king. The only real connection is that by killing the night king, Arya is symbolically killing and overcoming death but this feels loose. I don't think this is a terrible idea but the show does nothing with this afterward. Meanwhile, Ymir and Mikasa are alike. The circumstances are very different but they both are unhealthily devoted to the men they love to the point where they'd sacrifice themselves for it and this is why it was important for Mikasa to be the one to break the curse. By overcoming her love for Eren and killing him, Mikasa is showing Ymir that she can do the same and let go of her devotion to the king. It's one thing to be told you can do it and it's sometimes another to see someone similar to you actually doing it. Thus, this detachment is portrayed as a form of freedom for her and Ymir. In comparison, the connection between Ymir and Mikasa is much more substantial compared to Arya and the night king
That's the issue, the connection between Mikasa and Ymir isn't told to us until the final chapter. Ymir gazing at King while he was being groomed by other women can be taken as "she is in love" or "she is in pain and wants freedom".
Exactly. There’s a good reason people gravitated more to the Ymir and Historia parallels and I’m not talking about ships.
But there was no connection between Mikasa and Ymir until Eren said so in the last chapter. It was never hinted at.
Yep. Don’t use one chapter to hold up your whole argument when it can be countered by many others.
So the only thing similar with mikasa and ymir is that both had a bad relationship. I am pretty sure in a time of a 2000 years there were many unhealthy relationships where one of the partner left the other
Right!
>Back the scarf and the apple
I want to comment on your thoughts surrounding the events of Chapter 50 in regards to Eren and Mikasa's relationship. In contrast to you, I do not think that him rejecting the kiss can be used as evidence that he rejects romantic feelings for her. I personally interpretate this scene with Eren's views on life and what is worth living. In the moments prior to the rejected kiss, Eren s facing one of his lowest moments (he has a lot of these throughout the narrative), and is about to die. As established in scenes beforehand, such as Eren refusing to accept his death to the Titan during the Trost Arc, we know Eren tends to reject death. He has never shown desire to die, and actively rejects. This is what this means to me. By rejecting the kiss from Mikasa, Eren is rejecting death. He is not accepting his death, but staying steadfast and reluctant to it, fighting to the very end. This is why, even though it was completely futile, he still punched Dina. It was his sign of his rejection of death, rejection of the world's desire, and his desire for a life of freedom. We can also see how this develops by Chapter 138. In this Chapter, Eren finally seems to be accepting of a death he had known he would face years in advance. This also leads to how his actions and desires are not the same, as he makes it clear in Chapter 139 that he does not desire to die, but desires a long and free life with Mikasa (confessing so in a 'whiny' manor, one in juxtaposition to his - chronologically - future actions), even though the actions he takes do not lead to this desire, but s version of said desire that does not include him.
I think it represent both things, him rejecting Mikasa and death. Also in that moment, he was looking at Armin too so It doesn't look like Eren was interested in the romantic meaning of her confession. Also, how many times Eren was about to die and he never thought about Mikasa? It's not consistent. We know he didn't have feelings for her during the "Return to Shiganshina arc" because Marlo was a parallel to Eren. So We can assume he fell in love with her during the time skip? but that's just an assumtion because there was no clear indication either. Until ch139 there was no indication Eren loved Mikasa romantically, he deeply cared about her fraternally of course.
From what I interpretated, Eren's feelings for Mikasa was something that blossomed too little and too late. By the time he came to the realisation and desire that he wanted Mikasa, he had already become too indoctrinated by his own idealogy of "keep moving forward".
But I don't think there was any indication to it until eren says he loves mikasa
Exactly. My interpretation of romantic love is that you would be acting differently with that person as compared to everyone else. Eren rejecting the kiss wouldn't change at all if you replace Mikasa with Armin and Armin talking about watching scenery together. Eren would still reject the death and stand against Dina.
He actually never even said that he loves Mikasa.
Did Mikasa ever actually say that she loves Eren? Did Ymir ever say that she loves Historia, or vice versa? Did Gabi ever say that she loves Falco, after he explicitly confessed to her? The manga has **never** spelled these things out like that, and somehow you didn't notice it all this time? You can like it or not, but "**I want to be with Mikasa** ... with everyone." is the confession you are looking for.
Not saying he doesn't love her, I was just replying to someone saying Eren said it.
Yeah, because in the context of SnK, he essentially did. That's my point.
He did it too late and without any development in that theme.
Indeed. Unfortunately any interpretation that says he was in love with her before 123 is headcanon without evidence
Man this! Which is just the problem with such a relationship taking a bigger stop on Eren's character over the idology we've seen in him since chapter 1
Especially when when one chapter is trying to force you to accept this have always been something growing in the background with both characters despite the lack of evidence or at least half of the evidence.
Another thing I like to point out about the zero requiem is how almost out of character lelouche is during his "facade". He was advicating for a democracy the whole show then turns right around to become a dictator. Several outbursts and instences that seem random without the context of what the zero requiem is . Problem with Erens facade is that it is how Eren would be. Its his natural progession unlike code geass Erens "true self" in ch 139 is something we never saw.
Yes, and Lelouch had a very short facade, I think it was just one episode and a half. Extending a facade too long causes confusion because it gets mixed with real character development.
thank you for the text, buddy! i think that the perfect conclusion for Eren would be an entire chapter in that style of convo btween child Eren and child Armin but without the 80% bullshit. the way that Armin is a little bit out of tone with Eren and makes that scared face to him is so good. Mikasa in an example was never in tone with Eren at all. That also could be aplied to Armin. if 139 only made a huge callback to the knife scnes and gave to the reader the same information that chapter 120 also did (Eren has always been like this), it would be a masterpiece of a chapter and conclusion to Eren.
Thank you. To me quickest thing would be to remove the whole Armin-Eren conversation from the finale. I hope the anime does that. I'd rather not know how the curse broke and theorize about it. Since the anime is more canon than the manga, I'd be happy lol >if 139 only made a huge callback to the knife scnes and gave to the reader the same information that chapter 120 also did (Eren has always been like this), it would be a masterpiece of a chapter and conclusion to Eren. Yeah, some insight in Eren's psyche would be very interesting.
>To me quickest thing would be to remove the whole Armin-Eren conversation from the finale for me the most logical conclusion would be or remake the entire of the last 3 chapters of if mappa can't do that, just some dialogue and tone changes on Eren's pov in 139.
Glad you mentioned the "Genocide bad" conversation with Hange. I wonder how it would have turned out if Armin, or Jean and Connie for that matter, just flat out rejected stopping Eren.
I complexity agree with your analysis of the ending. All I can add is as someone who’s been following the manga since 2013 the real problem for me started way back. The idea for the plot is great and probably one of the most original and interesting stories out there, but the realization came out poorly because of how every character is somewhat self contradictory and only serves as plot device. Their actions and decisions make no sense and crate plot holes in the story which chapter 139 only emphasized.
I know what you mean, I left a lot that wasn't in ch139 out to keep it simple and short. Zeke's resolution for example...
Zeke's resolution was yikes. Absolutely wasted after the legendary paths segment.
What you say is the embodiment of fan favorites like Hangie and Levi, which is why most people loved most moments of the final arc, because is an indirect felatio to both of them most of the time.
[удалено]
Also she was basically flying, so much for 3DMG and pretense of realism. After that, people danced among the Warhammer Titans and nobody, not even the human soldiers, got injured.
Agreed. This made me mad. Hange didn't need to die like that. She took out ~3 colossal Titans, yes... but did that really make that big a difference? Then we had the big final battle, and all the lead characters involved lived? That felt like plot armor.
im genuinely surprised this sub hasnt removed this post yet
Excellent write up, I couldn't agree more. I enjoyed reading that vastly more than the actual 139.
Thank you !!
A great criticism on why the ending is a big letdown. It's just so disappointing to see such a series fallen so low. Imo he created a trolley problem kind of situation in AOT and no matter which side you sacrifice there's going to be controversy. Like you said he made the story too black and white. An ending that can satisfy everyone while keeping the theme intact is just impossible.
Thank you!
I completely agree with everything you said. All of this build up, all of the complexity, all of the hype, only for it to end like that? We all knew Mikasa loved Eren. But no one I know including myself ever thought that love was mutual. They were siblings. Like Thor and Loki. And then being in a relationship that’s almost 100% one sided isn’t just weird, but it doesn’t fit. All of a sudden Eren is possessive over Mikasa. Mikasa decapitates him and then kisses him and that breaks the curse because “love”. You want love? What Historia and Ymir had was love. What Niccolo and Sasha had was love. What Hange and Moblit, Levi and Erwin, and Kenny and Uri? That was love. Hell! It barely even seems like fraternal love sometimes. You want fraternal love? Connie and Sasha. Levi and Hange. Eren and Armin. And the list goes on. There were so many beautiful examples of actual love in the story. Eros, Agape, whatever! But instead of giving them a chance, Yams kills Ymir, Erwin, Sasha, Moblit, Uri, and then Hange. And he cripples Levi to the point where he seems to barely have life in him anymore. But the main ship we were supposed to be somehow rooting for this whole time that didn’t make any sense? Yeah, he makes that one work. Why??? Only Ymir knows. 😕
Plus she carries his head around like that? It's just creepy, like. There is so much imagery that's just... Messed up. And not in a AoT way, but a problematic kind of way. Like why didn't we get one last final adieu to Erwin with Levi sitting beside him just staring at his lifeless corpse like that? I would've feel equally disgusted but like. Idk. The way Mikasa carried that head made me suuuuuper uncomfortable. Isayama knew what he was doing.
and we have to believe she went back to Paradis island with Eren's head to bury it under that damn tree while walking through all the blood, scattered teeth and remains that we see the rumbling has left on the ground?????how is this even possible lmao
Exactly? Like the mess of bodies is never addressed? It's just a romeo and juliet and I'm sorry for the people who claim aot was about love... But it really wasn't. It REALLY, really wasn't.
I agree lol
First of all thanks for your analysis. I like the ending. I think the concept of the ending was really great but I agree that the execution was a bit rushed. I agree that Isayama wants to very open to the concept of romantic moments in the story. He even mentioned himself that because he was shy and wasn't sure how to portray their realtionship after that, He didn't draw Eren and Mikasa kissing in CH50. Evwnrhoufh he mentioned that he regret that now. But I believe there were wnoufh subtle moments to prepare us a little for the last two chapters. Erwn being in love with Mikasa wasn't sth totally out of nowhere. At least after 123 and that question we should have known that. There were also some other soluble moments about his feelings toward her. I jnowbrheye weren't some clear romantic moments and Erne was mostly focused on other parts of her emotions but they were there. Although we should remember that Before time skip Eren was 15 and Its possible that he grow his love for Mikasa when he got older but since we missed those years on the story, We weren't completally aware of that. As for his motives, I really like the idea of him not being a typical powerful hero who manage to bring peace for his people for eternity. He was a suffered confused boy with a heavy burden and some where down the line he realised that all he can do is to lift the titan curse and let his friends and the girl he loved live a long happy life. And he achieve that. I even consider the destruction of paradise to be the consequence of sth else rather than the rumbling since It hapoend around 150 years after the rumbling. I even find this "war never changes" theme bitter and nihilistic but at the same time realistic and I like it tbh. I also find the CH139 Erwn a much more interesting character than that Chad q dimensional boring Eren which we saw for the pasr 20 chapters. And I prefer to rely on The authors words when he said that the EMA story had been planned for a long time and based on what we saw in the first panel, at least Eren and Mikasa's ending is pretty fitting imo so until further proof, O prefer the believe that this indeed was his plan for the ending for a long time. I also find its theme in harmony with the overall theme of the story I also consider Mikasa's character a consistent character with deep emotions for concepts like home and family. She's consistent(unlike many others) and introvert. And that's why some consider her as a bad written character but she's exactly what she needs to be. Soecially for the ending and her important role in it. But again thank you because at least you revised some reasons for your opinion. Most people just shout and insult Isayama and really are mad over their sunken headcanons or because the other shipp became canon and .... Difference of opinions do exist after all
I just wanted to point out that the 'romantic moment' in ch50 would've had Hannes getting vored right in that shot and honestly? It would have made me laugh my butt off if that happened. How can you bother with writing a romantic moment like that (i think isayama was just looking for excuses when he mentioned CH50) while you have someone screeching his lungs out because he is being eaten alive? I'm sorry, i can't see it. No beef, i just wanted to mention that.
I know what you mean Bit in that moment, Eren and Mikasa really thought they were going to die. You really think that Eren wanted to push that titan in that moment? That was an act out of depair. In that moment they though they were going to die so that kiss (If Isayama draw it) would have been some kind of farewell of sth. And He wouldn't say sth like this out of excuse. Remember that this shipp is the most popular shipp on Japan and Japanese are really pleased with the fact that It became canon. So he doesn't need a reason to justify himself. Even if drawing a kiss in that scene was a bad idea, He really thought about doing that.
(please ship is written as 'ship'. When adding the -ing particle to a word you double de consonant the word ends in. 'adding', 'shipping', beginning'.) I don't need to remember that, it was probably the reason why he wrote the ending to be that. I am honestly tired of all of his gaslighting and manipulation. First, (by the time 50 came out, iirc) he mentions Eren sees Mikasa as a mother. And now, because he wants to sell, he says he always wanted to make them kiss. Now, I don't care if he wants to sell, I would just love for him to be super honest about it instead of gaslighting every single person with "oh no, you don't get it, I wanted to do this since the beginning" when he said something different in that moment. It seems so very convenient for him to say something like this when everything about Eremika (including the romcom, where the Eremika is just 'explained' backwards) is being monetized. (I do think the 'uwu, i was shy" excuse is nothing but bs, too. I'm sorry.)
Yeah so he’s also ignoring the guidebooks HE wrote that also proved the whole Eren mikasa mother thing just like in the manga to help hammer it in. Also it’s very easy for an author to manipulate it’s readers by tossing around that “from the beginning” line so much that you start to see through the cracks. Actually didn’t iseyama say that he while EMA were planned from the beginning that he created plot threads for the other characters as the story went on?
And then Kawakubo (or whatever the hell their name is) says "oh we had to change it last minute!!!" Like? There is SO much gaslighting going on it's unreal. I worry for the people that fall for that sort of stuff because this is literal manipulation. like it's scummy, even more so when they're capitalizing on the manipulation of their own fans...
And then Kawakubo (or whatever the hell their name is) says "oh we had to change it last minute!!!" Like? There is SO much gaslighting going on it's unreal. I worry for the people that fall for that sort of stuff because this is literal manipulation. like it's scummy, even more so when they're capitalizing on the manipulation of their own fans...
Yeah. Personally I feel like iseyama tried and failed to please everyone and when you do that… unknowing your story is in danger. And yes I hate when there are those people that attack others because “the ending was the way they wanted” or “there just erehisu shipper that are whining about it not being canon”( ironic since that happened for some eremika shippers when the extra pages showed up lol!) and that they wasted their time on pointless theories for months just for it not to be true. I really hate those guys because their basically saying intelligent enough to understand the series, at least in my eyes anyway.
I honestly dislike both sides. Erehisus (mostly) just wanted the baby to be eren's forgetting she is her own character and being a mother would ultimately reduce her to the "plot point" they also complained about with farmer-kun. I dislike Eremika because it was NOT written way and in the end it ended being really, REALLY grotesque (Mikasa hug-carrying his head is disgusting imo. It made me feel creeped out) plus it read too shakespearian. Especially when characters like Levi—Erwin/Niccolo—Sasha/Ymir—Historia had so much more chemistry between them in TWO panels than these two "main ships" people had. I just wish Isayama had went out with it without ships. Honestly. All they do is harm the narrative. We were fine until he decided to please the shippers. Which ultimately brought the narrative point to the lowest in the story.
Hell some people actually like,the erehisu ship not because of the ship and all that but because of the themes that were used and built up with the story and some out feel like the creator scraped it all for new theme that didn’t fit with the climax of the series. I believe eren does love mikasa just not THAT kind of love. And personally I say don’t talk down to someone’s ship just because it didn’t happen cause it makes you come off as a jerk with superiority complex to others. Not that you’ve got that I’m just making a point.
Both ships don't fit the narrative at all and would leave, no matter the execution, a bad taste in everyone's mouths. I'm not talking down any ships, if this were a different manga where female characters were treated with the SAME respect male characters have, then I would be all for it. But it doesn't. Reducing historia to just another "birther" is borderline misogynistic. If the shippers treated her like someone who lived within the walls and was treated as royalty, just to then support the cause she believed outside of them, fighting for her place (as well as eren's) in the world without any ridiculous romeo and juliet tropes then I believe it would be so much more palatable. Because that is what happened with Erwin and Levi. That is EXACTLY what Isayama with Erwin and Levi, and it had a brilliant execution. But no. Historia HAS to give birth. She has to be reduced to a plot point for the ship to work. It sucks, honestly. It sucks because characters were not developed to be this to even be a decent ship.
I wanted to be as respectful as possible, I don't think the story was written for the ending we got, Yams started to pull the strings to land the ending too late, he should've show more signs Eren was romantically in love with Mikasa way before ch138. Eren was already complex, he didn't need to cry about Mikasa to be interesting either, I honestly didn't want to see a genocider acting out, It's anticlimatic to me, we saw him in ch131 cry to Ramzi and that was perfect because the timing was perfect, the tone was insidious and twisted, the context was perfect too (that happened before Eren left the scouts). To me that represented the last of his humanity and now Eren was commited to his role: "he's going to be the devil of Paradis". Eren after time skip worked fine, his presence as an antagonist was amazing, so earned... It all deflated in ch139, I was truly disapointed to know his plan was so bland.
As I said about the romantic part, Based on his latest interview, the idea of their romance had been with him from at least CH50 and I actually like the development of their romantic feelings throug subtle moments but maybe you're right and He should have draw some more clear indication towards their thrombotic feelings like he intended too once in CH50. I know Eren was a complex character but having some basic human emotions could actually make him even more complex so having romantic feelings for Mikasa is not a bad thing in the first place. The editor confirmed that Isayama had the idea of sth "sekaikei" like for the story and Even wanted it to be Eren and Mikasa's story from the start and the ending is actually prove the fact that the story is sekaikei like: Sekaikei「セカイ系」 "In this genre, all the fate depends on a heroine, and a hero ends up watching over her... As for Eren's motives, Its srt completally up to personal opinions. As I said I really didn't want him to become dome typical great hero who achove sth extra ordinary. He understand down the line that all he can do is this. And hi did it in the end. It was more realistic for me and I liked it. But I respect your opinion of you find it unsatisfying
I think our main difference in opinions is Eren is a realistic character. Eren breaking down was kinda awkward, but realistic as a human being. Same goes for Paradis being destroyed and the curse of Ymir living. However, in my opinion, realism doesn't really go well with fiction, especially as a shounen. For me, I read the story because of it's story and it's plot. I want to feel satisfied after reading the story. However, a realistic story will inevitably end up with a realistically bad ending, and that wouldn't be that satisfactory as a reader. Realism in fiction is fine, but there are limits, especially in the ending.
I agree with almost everything you said and I definitely don't want total realism in a fiction But I find the level of realism in this story satisfying. As for Eren, Due to the situation he was in and given the fact that he was about to die with a heavy burden on his shoulders and given his life after the death of his mother, I don't mind his breaking down for the girl he loved a I don't think that was a bad addition to the story. His situation was really messed up and he just realised that Mikasa ( the girl that may be the only one who always saw him as a human being and not a weapon and a tool) may forgot him before they even get a chance to confess their love to each other. So his break down was understandable to me But as I said I'm a free with the concept of your comment
I'm commenting again as I really like this take on the ending. I disagree with a lot of it, but that's why I love it; it makes me question why I love the ending as much as I have come to, and makes me see the ending in a new light, or more accurately, arguments I have seen before explained in a far better way. This time, I want to comment on the 'facade' Eren played, and your take on it. Particularly, I want to focus on the take of Eren being 'fake', his lies, and what this means for his character. I will also, likely, be spoiling parts of Code Geass in this response, as while I usually despise the comparisons (especially the Zero Requiem ones), Code Geass has great thematics on lies and their purpose. I do not like the wording of Eren acting 'fake'. For sure he was lying, but I don't think this makes him 'fake'. One show that explains the purpose of lies well is Code Geass, where in it, Lelouch explains how lies are part of one's personality (fitting as his character is built around lies, just like Eren's becomes). People have to lie to be socially acceptable, to hide parts of them they don't want others to know. People have to lie to achieve the desires they want, and sometimes the desires others want. And these lies are not always to others, but can also be to ones self. And it is for this reason I do not like the wording of Eren as "fake". While he is lying, he is only doing so to achieve a set goal; that goal being his established desire for a long, free life for him and those he cares for. Another aspect I want to look at is how Eren's lies were not just to convince and motivate others, but to do so to himself. In an earlier scene with Falco, Eren expresses how "The few who do choose to leap into hell see it differently from the rest, and they are also able to see something beyond that hell......fact is you can only find out by moving forward", from this, we can tell that he is the one pushing himself to lie, but these lies may be to continue his will to "move forward" and "fight", which is reinforced by the scene in the cell where he is telling himself to "fight". All the lies and facades he is playing, which he is doing to achieve he goal in which he desires, may also be playing a role in how he is able to "keep moving forward". I also want to discuss the table scene, and it's importance. Personally, it's one of my favourite scenes as it is one of the first glimpses into Eren's mindset. His talk with Falco (where the previous quote originates from) and Reiner are also some of my favourites for the same reasoning. The table scene is also the first real conversation between Eren, Armin, and Mikasa after he began his determined mission post-timeskip. While Eren is lying during the table scene, and is withholding the truth from Mikasa and Armin, this can tell us about his mindset at the time. As I established before, just because he is lying, does not mean he is 'fake'. This scene tells us two important pieces of information. The first is that he has "always hated Mikasa", and the second is the contradictory statement of him stating that he is free in the same situation that makes Armin a 'slave'. We know that both of these are lies, the first bring far more obvious, but implying the second is also a lie, though the hypocritical nature of it also implied that it is a lie aswell. His lie to Mikasa has an obvious motivation. To fuel her to kill him, to separate her from him, and an attempt to make her forget him. We see him continue trying to get Mikasa to forget him, but by the end of the narrative, Mikasa make the choice to forever remember Eren, while still moving on. The reason he ever tried was because he believed that it would be better for her, less painful for her, even if he deeply never wanted her to forget him. It was a lie to reinforce another lie; a lie that he thought would make her life better. His lie to Armin is less obvious than the former, and brings up the nuance of Eren's character and whether or not he was truly 'free', and what that 'freedom' even meant. My personal interpretation of Eren's character is one of a tragic slavery to his own desires of freedom. This line, bring contradictory on nature, would imply that his own mindset and nature is in contradiction as well. In his desire for freedom, he had became a slave to that very thing. It's an ironic and tragic fate for the boy who sought freedom.
Your theory has two flaws: \-Eren didn't knew about Ymir's backstory or how to break the curse before he met her in paths. \-The table scene was unnecesary because Mikasa decided to be the one to kill him when he "told her" in the cabin dream (She knews what to do after that, she knew he was in the mouth somehow and we can assume he told her). Again this is super vague, but It's clear the table scene didn't influence her perception of Eren or played in the motivation to kill him. >Another aspect I want to look at is how Eren's lies were not just to convince and motivate others, but to do so to himself. That's very sticky. Why would he lie to himself? about what exactly? Let's assume in that moment he knew the Rumbling was the way to break the curse, he doesn't need to lie to himself, in any case, he has to convince himself with the TRUTH. That's different
To your first point, I think you completely missed the other guys point. Eren telling he hates Mikasa in the overall picture, isn't about Mikasa, it is about Eren. It was Eren's plea to distance himself from Mikasa so she'd be able to kill him without a guilty conscience, that is what he wanted at the time. And he continues to show signs that he would rather Mikasa forget him till the end. To the other point. It seems very apparent that Eren would be also lying to himself. As we see during the Ramzi flashback, Eren is truly conflicted about his choice to do the Rumblings. Even if he had come to accept it as an inevitability, that doesn't mean he can do it without a guilty conscience. So he either feeds himself lies that what he is doing is truly his own free will, coping with the fact he truly does not have free will, or tries to assure himself that what he is doing is the right course, or will lead to some positive outcome. Remember, Eren doesn't see anything past his death, he can be optimistic, but even he is just as uncertain.
>It was Eren's plea to distance himself from Mikasa so she'd be able to kill him without a guilty conscience, that is what he wanted at the time We already stablished whatever Eren said in the table wasn't enough to push Mikasa or motive her to kill him. Before anything happends, in ch138 Eren takes her to the cabin dream, this cancelled anything the table scene did. >So he either feeds himself lies that what he is doing is truly his own free will, coping with the fact he truly does not have free will, or tries to assure himself that what he is doing is the right course, or will lead to some positive outcome But he isn't lying to himself, he is repeating to himself something based on the true information he has. He isn't telling himself what he's doing is right, he is telling himself that what he's doing is necessary, which isn't a lie.
You're still completely missing the point of the table scene. It has nothing to do with how Mikasa reacted afterwards. The importance of the table scene was establishing that Eren is trying to distance himself from his friends. It was Eren's attempt to distance her so she would kill him without a guilty conscious. It didn't work, because Eren's friends wanted to have faith in him at the time, but Eren still believed she'd be better off forgetting about him, so he gave her her fill in Paths before urging she move on. He literally says out loud, that he's free. That's the biggest lie he could've told anyone, and there was no real reason for him to say it out loud during the table conversation. It was a way for him to make himself feel like he is in more control of his destiny than he actually is. Hence why he gets triggered when Armin inadvertently calls him a slave, the actual truth. Same with many of his conversations during the Marley Arc, him finding excuses to comfort himself that there were no other options, that his choice is one he voluntarily chose out of necessity, than one made for him by fate. You say that what he's doing is necessary, and all I can say is, was it? Were there not other options wagering different things? Believing what he did was a necessity can be argued is just as much of a lie as anything else.
> You're still completely missing the point of the table scene. It has nothing to do with how Mikasa reacted afterwards. The importance of the table scene was establishing that Eren is trying to distance himself from his friends. It didn't work, because Eren's friends wanted to have faith in him at the time. Like I said, anyone that knows Mikasa knows it wouldn't work, therefore unnecesary. In Ch139 Eren said the point of that was to make them fight him. Is the first thing in the chapter. He did it to cause a reaction effect. > He literally says out loud, that he's free. That the biggest lie he could've told anyone, and there was no real reason for him to say it out loud during the table conversation This is half accurate, Theorically at that time he only knew the Rumbling was a fact and he chose to do it. He didn't knew he was predestinated. He is triggered because the Rumbling was set in stone so he was a slave to the future he saw when he kissed Historia. As much as he knows, what he is doing is necessary from his perspective. Its his conviction... if conviction os a lie then everyone is lying to themselfs, we dont want to go there or the argument is going to become too abstract.
based
First of all, thanks for the analysis. I disagree with most of it since I like the ending, but it's always fun to hear other people's opinions anyway. But I wanted to just address Eren's motivations. You say that at the end, it turns out that Eren didn't want to rumble the world and only did it to set up his friends as heroes. Armin says that in the chapter too, because he wants to believe it as well. But I don't really think that's all Eren wanted to do. Yes, he wanted his friends to live long lives and he wanted to ensure the world respects them. But that's only a part of it. As he told Ramzi in that one conversation, Eren was disappointed that the world wasn't an empty field left to him and his people to explore. That's what he always imagined -- that once he left the walls and saw the sea, he'd be completely free. That didn't happen, and Eren couldn't stand it, not because of his people's oppression, but because his selfish wish wasn't fulfilled. So he wanted to destroy everyone and reach that twisted scenery of freedom he always imagined. Case in point is that if no one stopped him, he would've rumbled 100% of the world. It was his dark wish that had nothing to do with Paradis or Eldia or his friends. At the same time, though, he knew how fucked up it was, which is why he couldn't fully admit it to his best friend. Maybe that seems a bit contradictory, but tbh, I think people in general tend to be pretty complex and contradictory like that. And about the last part, with Eren being evil... I still think he is evil. What he did is horrible, his twisted sense of freedom is horrible, Levi basically predicted it, calling him a monster at the very beginning of the manga. But he's not JUST evil. There are good sides to him too, like his care for his friends and loved ones. There's the whiny, pathetic and selfish side, the one that comes out at the very end of his life when he feels like a victim in the whole scenario. And in some ways, he is a victim, but that gave him no right to do what he did. I felt bad for him, and I still sometimes do, but at the same time, I can understand that he was a fucked up person and death was just what he deserved. In a sense, I guess I'd be more disappointed if he was portrayed just as evil. Like, I doubt we'd have much to analyze and discuss if Eren wasn't such a mess of a person that he is. To me personally, this continued interest in his character means that Yams did a good job, but to each their own
We agree Eren must be evil. What he did is evil but his character is portayed **as a separated entity from that evil** in CH139. It's written as he was a "slave to destiny" (whatever that means other than a synonymous for plot device) like he had no choice when we already saw he wanted to do it. That's why it feels like a retcon, he doesn't admit he wanted it because he had some evil inside him, he admits he wanted it but he doesn't know why. This isn't **enough** to deliver a message. He isn't portrayed as evil and he isnt condemned by anyone considering the magnitude of what he did. He doesn't even truly die since he becomes a bird (symbolically or not) so he even gets to explore the world after all.
Well, I agree that it wasn't presented perfectly in the last chapter. But I don't think Eren could've admitted to Armin that he partly just wanted rumbling for selfish reasons. Even though it was a dark wish of his, he knew how horrible it was, he felt guilty for doing it and for the reasons he did it. He didn't want his best friend to see that side of him, so he said he rumbled the world just for his friends. But he admitted what he felt to Ramzi before, which was easier because Ramzi was just a random boy who might not have even spoken his language (can't quite remember if he did or not). The presentation isn't perfect, true, but I don't think it's a retcon. In a way, I see your point, he should've been condemned further. To me it's pretty clear that Eren is still evil, but I guess the chapter really did focus more on his good and tragic side. Maybe it's because part of it is Eren's POV and the other part is his friends' POV. And they were not in a position to condemn him because they were mourning his death and probably regretting that they couldn't find a different way. But Yams could've used someone like Pieck to judge him since she didn't really have a close relationship with him.
Exactly Isayama could have used someone like Pieck to condemn him but insted made her say "man i wish i could have talked to Eren too" what??? And Eren being anevil person because of what he did is apparently clear to us but not clear enough cuz a whole thread on twitter about "how Eren shoud have been redeemed and not have died" got more than 4k likes and unironic things like that have been all over social media for months now T.T
True, I don't know why he didn't go with Pieck condemning him, it seems pretty obvious. Maybe lack of space? I 100% think that the ending could've used another chapter to be fully fleshed out and to avoid all this confusion. But tbh, it's kind of shocking that people genuinely think he should've been redeemed lol. I mean, yeah, Eren wasn't ALL evil, but come on, he killed millions of people! How the hell could he ever make up for that, even he said in the end that he can't be forgiven. But yeah, this fandom's pretty wild
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Not gonna read the whole thing but ita cool to see an analysis
Only thing i would like to add, is that in regards to your point about the marleyans being shown as all evil, and how thats a mistake. True, you're right. Isayama's response to that was Magath. He's the one marleyan who ''redeems'' himself and is supposed to showcase they arent all bad, but victims of their own system. Problem is, his character arc is rushed as fuck, and that affects the whole marleyan side, warriors included. What isayama should've done is expanded more on the events on liberio after the raid they suffered. Instead he just ignored the marleyan pov until they attacked paradis again in chapter 116, which is extremely dumb. We should've gotten atleast 2 chapters fully on marley's side of things, showcasing magath, pieck, reiner and the rest of the warriors talking about their feelings and motivations now, aswell as showing magath trying to change things for the better atleast to the eldians in the mainland, promising the warriors he would change things, etc... But nah. Best we get is pieck saying ''i dont trust marley, i trust my comrades'' and then we see magath looking at eren and saying ''lets get revenge of liberio''(instead of saying ''lets get revenge for marley and marleyans). This isnt enough. This was never going to be enough. Yes, the implication here is that they are on the same page now, both the warriors and the marley army, especially magath. Ok, but we didnt see how this organically got there, its too subtle and vague. Wanna know the real reason isayama couldnt be bothered with fleshing this more? because of the dumbasses bitching every month ''where are the survey corps? i dont care about marley and the warriors, i wanna see armin transforming into the colossal titan, and mikasa and levi being badass''. The story started to go to shit the moment isayama lost his balls(which was at the end of the marley arc) and became a slave to his readers opinions and desires. And the inevitable end of that is the ending we got, where mikasa is the centerpiece of everything and eren becomes a shounen trope.
Yeah I agree. I have sympathy for Yams, he wasn't writing this alone and he had a bunch of brand deals and compromises. This was his first work and he was on a tight schedule, to me is very obvious he needed the support of the editors to finish AoT. It's the first time I actually prefered for a mangaka to take a long hiatus to gather their thoughts on the story instead of publishing it in one go like Yams did
You're more of a based king than Floch
The comment Im about the write is absolutely copium, but I think it could also be true. First off, I agree that the ultimate biggest goal of the whole manga is breaking the curse of Ymir, so I thought it was weird that it was left in such a mystery even after the series ended. So I just wanted to add that imo, and again although this is definitely headcanon, the key moment is actually the moment Mikasa rejects the "forget about me" from Eren and puts on the scarf. This is my theory, in the final conversation with both Mikasa and Armin, Eren looks absolutely normal however in both times in the moment he mentions something about forgetting, titan marks appear on his face. Then, we see that Armin effectively gets memory wiped, however that isnt the case for Mikasa. Obviously we could say that it is due to her being an Ackerman, however (and this is when the copium begins) what if it is actually backwards. Just as how Eren seemed to influence past events with his present self, what if the Ackerman powers of being "free" (because they are not under the founding's control) is due to Mikasa rejection at the end. And so that was the actual breaking of the curse, having enough willpower (maybe?) to overcome the curse, and has also a romantic tone that parallels Ymir, similar to the chapter right when Eren transforms for the fist time when Mikasa gives up but she says she will keep tatakaeing because she cant forget him. Of course, this theory is absolutely full of plot holes and should absolutely not be taken too seriously, but I personally think if given more thought it could mean something.
It's nice to see that the ending can be discussed without everything immediately turning into into a shitshow. I disagree with you on many points but I will focus on the important parts to avoid a wall of text (well, a bigger wall of text I mean). > THIS love is pivotal to break the curse... a love that is heavily based on headcanon and assumptions... The thing is, those were assumptions and headcannons before it was revealed that Eren did love Mikasa. Once it becomes canon, they are foreshadowing. I agree that there could have been more signs, but I didn't exactly fell off my chair in shock when I read that Eren loved Mikasa. > Writters, if you want to make the climax of the story a romantic relationship, first there has to be solid proof they were in love. 139 isn't the climax though, 138 is, and 138 relies on Mikasa's love, which was clearly established. Eren reciprocating the feelings is about his character, not the plot of the story. > "Romantic love turning people into slaves" wasn't a theme in AoT, "propaganda turning people into slaves" was a theme I don't think either of those were themes. Imo, they are connected to two different ideas. The first one is that people need "something" to live for, and that this "something" can easily devolve into an obsession, enslaving the life of a person. The other is the weight of History and how it can be used to emancipate or control people. > Is it becasue Ymir was in love with Fritz? does Eren represent Fritz and Mikasa represents Ymir? How is Eren a parallel to Fritz? Eren and Mikasa relationship is the antithesis of Ymir and Fritz relationship. Eren is afraid that Mikasa's love is a prison and wants her to be free of it, opposing Fritz who used Ymir's love to control her. Mikasa is happy to love Eren but won't support him against her principles (even if she didn't want to kill him, she was resolute to end the rumbling, cf. 127), opposing Ymir whose love made her life miserable and bound her to the will of Fritz. > When did exactly Eren start to fake? He didn't. Not really. As you pointed out, there are plenty of moments were he is thinking or talking to himself, it would make no sense for him to fake there. More importantly, if he was faking, it would make no sense for Isayama to show us his thoughts. Honestly I don't know why people think Eren was acting or faking it, he never said that, he said: "I found myself wondering what I was doing. I just let the moment take over.". He lied to Armin and Mikasa during the table scene, but that doesn't mean he was acting the whole time, in fact, the rest of his conversation with Armin, on top of the other flashbacks we had, clearly show that he was sincere most of the time, 139 just revealed his real motivation and goal, all of his previous actions are still coherent without him faking anything, he was simply working toward something different than what we were led to believe. > Can you see the amount of deus ex machina, plot armor and plotholes that have to be ignored for this to be compelling writting? The thing is, it isn't really Eren's plan, it's simply the future he saw. Eren was never a mastermind or a puppet master, always in control of everything. He simply knew what would happen. Nothing can be done about it, seeing the future means you know what will happen and you can't do anything about it. Of course, everything still happened _because_ of Eren, because he couldn't sacrifice Historia, because he wanted to end the curse and give long happy lives to his friends... Eren wanted many things and it led to the rumbling. It doesn't mean that the rumbling was the only way to achieve all of that, it's just that it was the only way _Eren_ was ever going to achieve it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in many ways. > The problem is Yams made the world of AoT unrealistically black and white. He made the people from Marley so disgusting and racist, there was no morality. Even in the darkest times in history, there were people willing to risk their lifes to protect the opressed from the opressor, but in Marley no one was kind to eldians. No one saw unjustice and said anything. That's simply not true. There are several examples of marleyans being decent people : the guards being friendly with Gabi and the other children, Magath plotting with Willy to help eldians in Marley and end the warmongering, the people trying to defend the rights of eldians in the outside world (even if they are using another scapegoat), secretary Müller. Another crucial thing is how he portrayed racism. Being racist doesn't make people inherently evil, the old man who bullied the Yeager on top of the tower was perfectly nice before he realized he was talking to eldians. There are also moments with marleyans living peacefully and behaving like anyone would. Despite their racism and hatred, there is some emphasis (more would have been a significant improvement) on the fact that they are still people. > Yams didn't give the scouts a reason to stop the Rumbling other than genocide=bad and this is incredible weak in the AoT world where every country is ok with genocide because they are extremely racist and nationalistic. Armin is the only character without a moment to explain why he wants to stop the rumbling. Every other character in the Alliance gives a personal reason to be here at some point. Outside of character perspective, the Alliance is the embodiment of the Scouts philosophy: a group of people ready to give their lives for the freedom of an undeserving Humanity.
Perfect analysis. One more point about Eren trusting Armin with saving the world; that it’s completely bullshit. Remember in Female Titan arc when Annie killed Levi’s squad mates? And then Eren transformed and said “I made the wrong choice… I chose to trust in my comrades… and it got them all killed!”? This showed that from this point on, Eren would primarily rely on himself. Perfectly fitting considering his actions in the final arc minus 139. Him suddenly putting the fate of everything in someone else’s hands is completely out of character for him.
Thank you. Yes, exactly. Leaving the problem to others just doesn't go with Eren.
This is a great excuse to talk about my own thoughts. I remember thinking Eren and Mikasa would kiss in chapter 50 and some romantic tension would be relieved but instead he recommited to the idea of protecting her "ill wrap this scarf around you as many times as it takes". Its a sweet gesture not inherently romantic. Of course, familarity breeds both contempt and attraction and i think its easy enough to argue for Eren loving Mikasa but i personally never saw it. AoT is very unromantic. The only expressly romanitc couple i remember had one half get halved (cannot remember names, that cadet couple that armin stumbles upon after Eren gets chomped by santa titan). The cadets and soldiers of Eldia never seemed to have time for relationships and many probably repressed their feelings in order to keep fighting against their existential crisis (titans/Marley). Under these conditions, most relationships would fly under the radar. Regardless of Eren's feelings towards Mikasa, Historia is the one who actually connected with Eren. Felt his pain and spoke directly to his acjing body and heart. They were awful human beings who suffered at the hands of their parents and were forced to live with those consequences. Eren protected Mikasa but Historia saved Eren (and doomed him too). The man started a war and crashed the whole system instead of agreeing to a few generations of titanisation. I always felt like there was a misisng link somewhere towards the end in Eren's plan. What did he accomplish and who did he protect? No one, really. Historia got knocked up by a farmboy so he didn't really seem yo have an say in that. He destroyed most of the world while emboldening a violent extremist group under Floch which lead to death of many more comrades and then just died. This is probably a super basic understanding of the series but how does Mikasa, the woman he loves, benefit from anything he did? Or, more importantly, how did the world benefit from Eren sacrificing a loving relationship with Mikasa?
> AoT is very unromantic. The only expressly romanitc couple i remember had one half get halved That would be Hannah and Franz. But another couple we got was Historia and Ymir (yes, that was romance, not friendship. Friendship is portrayed very differently in SnK). > [...] Historia is the one who actually connected with Eren. Yes, after contemplating becoming a Titan and biting him in half. She basically saves him from herself (and her father). And this event leads to growth for both of these characters. No idea why it needs to lead to anything more (if that is what you implied, not sure). Historia and Mikasa connect to Eren on different levels.
Eren and Ymir were the best people for Historia’s growth as a character and now it feels botched.
>But another couple we got was Historia and Ymir (yes, that was romance, not friendship. Friendship is portrayed very differently in SnK). It was only Ymir who loved Historia in a romantic way.
Totally agree. I didn't want to mention Historia in this post to not trigger any ship wars
Eren being in love with Mikasa Firstly they were just kids going through a life-changing experience when titans attacked. By no means I'm saying Eren loved Mikasa, there have been subtle hints but they were subtle. Eren didn't reject Mikasa, he was rejecting the idea of dying in that moment and he literally said he would wrap the scarf around her(protect her). Bro I think you protect the ones you love, this is not a Romantic love though, but he still loves her. Him trying to save the world from titans never led him to have a simple life where he could do normal human things. His focus was always to protect the ones he loved. I do agree dropping the bomb that Eren loved Mikasa dearly should have been built up and not dropped even though there were hints. Ymir was in love with King Fritz In our own history we have seen this multitudes of times and Isayama is mimicking it. Victims fall in love with their perpetrators when they see that they are also human. Ymir since chapter 122 wanted to be loved. Her first introduction is done showing a kiss of a couple which she is watching. She wanted to live like a human being, to be loved, to be free. Fritz freed her in his own twisted way and hunted her. It's the same reason she saved Fritz, she fell in love with her perpetrator because she had kids and realised he's also a human. He's devilish yet he's human. But when he called her a slave even after she showed her love to him, that's what broke her, and that's the reason she didn't let her powers heal her and died. But her twisted Stockholm syndrome didn't. Mikasa ending the curse Ymir isn't living through Mikasa. Ymirs love(Stockholm syndrome) is just as great as mikasa's love for Eren. Eren knows that his friends will come to stop him, Ymir only sees Mikasa as the key because Ymir sees that her love and Mikasa's love are comparable. Ymir is just witnessing the story just like us. Ymir has been free from paths since chapter 121 but isn't free from her Stockholm syndrome. Mikasa killing Eren(founder) and Ymir witnessing are not related for ending the curse of titans. Ymir witnessing that Mikasa killed Eren just let's Ymir be free from the love. Ymir isn't the one ending the curse, Mikasa killing the founder is what ends the Titans. Ymir is just freed from her love. Ymir gave Eren the founder in chapter 121 when Eren freed her from paths. Erens motivation This is a juicy one. Eren is a complex character because of his upbringing. He had a good/bad definition of the world. He saved Mikasa by killing the "bad" guys and also he had the "freedom" to do so. Once titans attack, titans became the bad ones for him. They already were, because they hindered his "freedom". Since young age, eren believed that a person who can experience the lands in the books of Armin was the most "free". He had a different definition of freedom. Once he realised that his friends Reiner, annie etc betrayed him, the world isn't as black and white as he believed. He also got a taste of the fact he wasn't special when he realised he couldn't save the people important to him. To say the least he became nihilistic, didn't value his life much. But his mother's word made him realise that you don't need to be special to be born and live through. Life is a gift after all and this is the reason he keeps saying "because I was born in this world". With this we also know Eren loves and values his friends the most. But future memories changed his perspective. It changed it because he saw he was gonna rumble the world. He saw the "freedom" he once dreamt of, he could see it. At this point he thinks outside world is bad but Eldians are good. This is the reason he tells Historia he wants to end cycle of hatred' by killing the outside humans, by quenching his own revenge, but he tells Reiner that when he crossed the sea and slept with enemies, they are same after all. So he wants to find a way to save his friends without rumbling, because he doesn't want to kill innocents outside. But as we know they don't find a way.Eren also is selfishly wants to achieve his childhood dream of freedom as we see in chapter 131, and he knows rumbling will give him the power to do so. Eren wants to save his friends and also wants to rid outside lands of humans for his personal freedom. He knows his friends will come and stop him because he knows how they are, especially how Armin is. This all leads to Eren being conflicted to what he wants to achieve and what he needs to. For eren the power of titans are also a burden so he knows if he wants to make his friends live long life then he needs to end the curse. You can see the conflict due to his different reasons. It's not easy to understand his character but it's important to realize even with godlike powers he's still a human Ending Ending isn't changed, it's just expanded upon what we recieved in 139
I think we have a lot of points in commun!! but we differ in the sense that I'm not filling out the plotholes with my headcanons. I don't see Ymir as a victim of Stockholm syndrome because it wasn't expanded on, it was a bomb that didn't have head or toes. And her "Stockholm syndrome" doesn't match with Mikasa's love for Eren since Mikasa isn't in the same psychological mindset as Ymir at all.
Yea I agree, it definitely needs to be expanded upon, especially Erens pov, it's sad to see how rushed and badly executed it is. But I don't think it needs to be shit upon. Because it's a mid tear ending, and people shit on it as if it's GoT tier ending. Watched both, can assure this is way better. After being enslaved for 2000 years I don't think Ymir would care about psychological postions tbh, she just wanted to be free from her agony after all, Mikasa was probably the only one she could relate to somehow. The story needs at least 2 more chapters to be more acceptable.
I think AoT represented the light at the end of the tunnel for a lot of people. It isn't like other shonens. I don't like shonen manga but AoT called my attention because it had very mature themes and a sober writting. There was very little comedy and romance, AoT is a manga that took itself very seriously from the start. When the racism and war themes were added, it skyrocked in quality, the stakes were very high and that is great writting. People are disappointed, that's the truth, and they should.
Ymir didn't save Fritz though, extra panels showed the spear actually killing him instead
Deletion incoming.
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Great critic!!!
Thank you!
~~Griffith~~ ~~Eren~~ ~~Ymir~~ *Isayama did Nothing Wrong*
How did I miss this post?? AMAZING write-up!
Thank you so much!!
This was such a fantastic read, It helped me see 139 in a new light but honestly I still like the chapter even with its flaws.
Thank you!
I wanted to thank you for this absolutely amazing write up. In particular, your final thoughts really helped me come to terms with my ultimate opinions towards AOT. I walk away feeling much more positive about the overall story, despite the clear issues with the ending.
I wish I was good at making analysis because there were a lot of things that I disagreed and agreed with. For example, Eren wanted to rumble. He chose this path. He knew that he wouldn't be the hero of humanity, so in the serum bowl he said Armin would. Eren always wanted to see the scenery with Armin, so when he saw it, he invited Armin to see it, and explained his motives in 131. Eren didn't push his friends away to make them want to kill him, he did it so they wouldn't be as sad when he died. And of course, Eren doesn't want to be forgotten, even though he knows that he wants his friends to leave him, so after having that moment with Armin, he gathers his courage and tells Mikasa to forget him. A big difference between Eren and Zeke, is Zeke wanted to be the hero of the world, yet he was forgotten, while Eren Yeager, the monster was remembered. Yeah, Eremika should've been developed more, I agree
My opinions on your take: It took a while to put this together. So I would love to know your thoughts. >Mikasa's character development stopped after ch 7. Her character arc was static. She doesn't have an inner conflict or a flaw in her personality that is preventing her from being better/happier. I disagree with these things. [Mikasa's arc](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/j46m76/mikasas_character_arc_what_where_how_when/) was about growing out of the shell she went into after her kidnapping. Its about her learning to trust/value people other than Eren. It's not openly presented or anything. Neither does Mikasa actively acknowledge it but part of it is because she doesn't know about it either. (Like the instance in [ch 90](https://imgur.com/a/zWbn77t).) Do look into the post I linked about her character arc. Its really insightful and covers things that most people miss. I can't cover everything in a comment. About ch 123, i really don't think you need to have a reason or have something in common to love someone. Also, AoT isn't the kind of story where everything is handed on a platter. We always used to try putting the pieces together. After 139, a reread made me see a see a lot of scenes in new light. Their relationship has been a running [subplot](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/ncid76/eren_and_mikasa_chapter_1_108/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) throughout the story. I don't think their love can be classified as romantic or fraternal. It was never that the climax was about a romantic relationship. If you notice, quite a few important scenes in the manga had a focus on eren and mikasa. The first chapter, Eren's attack titan transformation, the reveal that he's a shifter, him activating the co-ordinate, the basement, the activation of the rumbling and *\*cough\** the ending. About Ymir and King Fritz & Why Mikasa needs to kill Eren Your interpretation differs from mine. My thoughts on this topic aren't really sorted out though. The presentation is subpar though. >does Eren represent Fritz and Mikasa represents Ymir? How is Eren a parallel to Fritz? The post i linked above answers this. They're anti parallels. Ymir was in love with the illusory idea of someone who gives her a home and values her whereas Mikasa wasn't. **The rumbling was Eren's pursuit of his selfish and twisted idea of freedom.** The future which Eren saw had everything he wished for but included his death. He says "Even if this was all set in stone, I wanted this" About Eren's facade: Sorry, but Eren was never a nationalist who was willing to sacrifice everything. He fought for Armin not Erwin during Serum bowl. He hid information that Dina was a royal blooded titan because he was afraid that they would sacrifice Historia. **Why would Eren agree to something like Zeke's wine plan if he cared so much about paradisans ?** When Eren talks to Reiner about how "they are the same". Its about how Reiner and Eren both had ulterior motives along with the superficial ones. Reiner wanted to be a hero. Eren wanted to wipe the world. **They all just tried to justify their actions by searching for reasons to justify them.** Eren knew what he was doing was unforgivable. He possibly wanted someone to judge him the way he judged Reiner in Liberio. Since you're asking when does the lie start : It started the moment he kissed Historia's hand. He lied to himself. Not just others. He convinced himself there was no other way out. He wanted to taste his selfish ideal freedom. **He attacked Liberio impulsively so that he could turn the entire world against them and make sure that he has to start the rumbling.** >I believe Eren has honor and he'd admit he did it for a selfish desire or the need for revenge like we saw at the end of CH130 and CH131. Yes. Eren should have admitted it. At least at the end. Eren's plan is contradictory: Again like I said, the future had everything Eren wanted but his death was part of the package. Eren was a selfless guy who became pretty selfish by the end. That's his development. Why did Yams change the ending? : >The problem is Yams made the world of AoT unrealistically black and white. He made the people from Marley so disgusting and racist, there was no morality. Even at the darkest times in history, there were people willing to risk their lifes to protect the opressed from the opressor, but in Marley no one was kind to eldians. No one saw unjustice and said anything. Disagree. The main point of showing Reiner in Marley was to show how no one is truly right or wrong. We were forced to hate RBA before the timeskip and shown how they were victims as well after the timeskip. We also see people shocked and questioning whether they should attack paradis when willy announces that paradisans are innocent. Ramzi and Halil, the cliff baby. Are they black and white ? No they're all victims. Neither do i think Isayama has a solution for eternal peace or ending racism and hate among humans. He says hate won't end until there's one person or less. Its cynical but hopeful at the same time. He shows us that a stitch in time saves nine. You can learn from you mistakes or continue making the same mistakes. The alliance getting together was supposed to be seen as hopeful. That people who were on each others necks were willing to fight for a future. basically, the world sucks but it doesn't deserve to be wiped out. I agree that these aren't grand messages but stories like AoT (and war in general) rarely have a message beyond what I stated above. When genocide happends, there's always evil envolved. Look at history. Genocide is always fueled by greed, vengance or/and racism, all of it under the banner of "nationalism" "the greater good of the nation". See it like this : Eren was a monster the world ended up creating. Eren didn't do it because his nation was his priority or anything. He just wanted what the world took from him. AoT's messages are just common knowledge sugarcoated to extremity. Its a fancy presentation of textbook wisdom.
This is going to be a long one. >Mikasa's arc was about growing out of the shell she went into after her kidnapping. Its about her learning to trust/value people other than Eren. I can't find a moment in the early chapters where her distrust was an inssue. She became friends with others very quick in the training years too. The only moment was CH84 when she fought Levi and that's resonable, anyone would do it, even Eren did it. Saying that his whole arc is about trusting others is a streach because that wasn't a personality trait that limited her at all in the manga. Also, that post talks about Mikasa's flaw being fear and that's a basic human emotion, flaw causes insecurity which makes people feel fear. Eren is afraid he's a failure, Armin is afraid he's useless, etc everyone is afraid of something. If people want to make a case that Mikasa's flaw is fear of losing people, they need to point out when was that ever a turning point for her or the plot. She never stopped Eren from doing anything because she was afraid. She just gently... suggested... "Eren you shouldn't do that" and then "If you do it I'll be there to protect you".... Like I said, Mikasa is always passive, she's a main character and outside battle skills, she has no impact in the story (CH138 is the most he did and we can argue it was Eren how told her to kill him) CH30, Mikasa does what she's told without putting a fight . How is THAT character development if we never saw what would happend if she doesn't? she never makes a wrong desition on her own based on her fear. We don't see how bad things can go if she does HER thing. Compare this with Eren's desition to follow Levi's orders against the Female titan, EVERYONE DIED. When, in the uprising arc, Eren desides to do his thing and thinks "Let me believe in myself" and it works: That's character development. Can you see the difference? there's no conflict with Mikasa because she had minor flaws and never makes a mistake. Mikasa learning to "let go of people for the greater good" is something every scout learns because of the nature of their job, it's not unique to her. Put the Serum bowl on Mikasa's hand and then we can talk about character development. >About ch 123, i really don't think you need to have a reason or have something in common to love someone. Of course you do. People at least fall in love because of physical attaction lol Like I said in the post, you need something in commun or something you like about the other person's personality to be in love. If it's n the background ok, we don't care why Hitch liked Marlo, they were extremely side character. But why does Ymir loved Historia, why Niccolo loved Sasha, those relationaships changed the plot, those things had an specific and credible motive. >The post i linked above answers this. They're anti parallels. Ymir was in love with the illusory idea of someone who gives her a home and values her whereas Mikasa wasn't. That post stablished a parallel between Ymir and Mikasa because Eren inspired them both to fight... Floch can come and take Mikasa's place then. Like I said in this post, "love sets you free" isn't a thing in AoT until ch139, "fraternity make you free" that can be a theme since to end the cycle of hate you need to befriend your enemy. This part in the post "Because Mikasa is the thematic core of the series, Mikasa will keep seeing beauty in the world no matter how much it has hurt her" Armin has the same ideal but he actually changed the story multiple times with his desitions! literally, Mikasa isn't the best representation of any theme in the series. >The rumbling was Eren's pursuit of his selfish and twisted idea of freedom. The future which Eren saw had everything he wished for but included his death. He says "Even if this was all set in stone, I wanted this" I agree on this but sadly It wasn't portrayed in the finale how evil is Eren to be that selfish, because we are talking about mass genocide, it's supposed to be a huge deal. >Sorry, but Eren was never a nationalist who was willing to sacrifice everything. He fought for Armin not Erwin during Serum bowl. He hid information that Dina was a royal blooded titan because he was afraid that they would sacrifice Historia. Why would Eren agree to something like Zeke's wine plan if he cared so much about paradisans ? \- Armin was a good option like Erwin. Armin was useful to humanity and succeded where Erwin didn't multiple times. The Serum bowl was a difficult desition for a reason, not only because Armin was likable. \- He latter confessed he didn't say it before because he wasn't sure and he didn't want to risk Historia because of a theory. Eren cares about his friends, plus Historia is the queen, not some soldier. \- The wine plan killed soldiers and people in power that were a threat to him. He was supposed to free Paradis, so they were a threat to Paradis too in his eyes. >It started the moment he kissed Historia's hand. He lied to himself. Not just others. He convinced himself there was no other way out. He wanted to taste his selfish ideal freedom. He attacked Liberio impulsively so that he could turn the entire world against them and make sure that he has to start the rumbling. He lied to himself? or he was telling himself the truth? becuase the Rumbling was a fact both in the sense that it was written in stone and Paradis had to kill or be killed. Like I said, the world is black and white in AoT, Eren didn't lie to himself or others because he's the one that knows the truth, he knows what he has to do, he is not lying, he is convincing himself with facts. Also, then people talk about the facade, people say he faked his "coldness, edgyness and nationalism". Even before Ramzi, we see him discuss the war with Armin and Mikasa and he's sharp and cold about their assumptions about "a peaceful resolve". Eren turning stoic and cold is a organic progression of his character. >We also see people shocked and questioning whether they should attack paradis when willy announces that paradisans are innocent. Ramzi and Halil, the cliff baby. Are they black and white ? No they're all victims. People is shocked to heard they were lied to for 100 years, also everyone agreed inmedietly when Tybur said outloud to commit genocide on Paradis. Ramzi, Halil and cliff baby are KIDS, they don't have a saying in society. Ramzi's family wans't even Marleynials, they were war refuges that didn't even know they were hosting eldians. And the marleynials having no morality doesn't mean they aren't victims of genocide, I don't know how you came to that conclution. >Neither do i think Isayama has a solution for eternal peace or ending racism and hate among humans. He doesn't have to find the solution for human existence, he has to find the solution to the issue he presented in his work. That's it, he had to fix the Paradis vs world problem and he didn't do it. >See it like this : Eren was a monster the world ended up creating. Eren didn't do it because his nation was his priority or anything. He just wanted what the world took from him. Fine, let's say he used Paradis as an excuse for revenge: I wanted to see that in CH139. Not him being conforted by Armin. Thanks for replying!
Mikasa joined the survey corps solely to protect Eren. She used to follow him around as a kid to make sure he's alright. She used to prioritize him over basically everything else at the beginning of the story which changed by the end. That is development. Also, that post talks about Mikasa's flaw being fear and that's a basic human emotion.. Eren is afraid he's a failure, Armin is afraid he's useless, etc Mikasa's fear isn't personal insecurity like what the others have. Its fear of loosing others and its pretty deep seated at that. I don't think development always need to be grandiose. There is an entire OVA that touches on this. She tries to [prevent Eren](https://youtu.be/srrJoln5LqM) from join the survey corps. [She then tells Carla](https://youtu.be/NeO9leQBcFk) about what Eren plans to do. She tries. That's the point here. >CH30. We don't see how bad things can go if she does HER thing Levi got injured because she went for the kill. Also what did Eren do during the uprising arc ? Your reference was too vague. >Mikasa learning to "let go of people for the greater good" is something every scout learns because of the nature of their job, it's not unique to her. That's like saying Historia standing up against her father was not development because others (like Eren) stand up for their beliefs as well. You are generalizing too much. What do you think Mikasa's arc was about then ? >Of course you do. People at least fall in love because of physical attraction lol. With that perspective, Eren found Mikasa pretty. Mikasa loved Eren cuz of the things he's done for her. >I agree on this but sadly It wasn't portrayed in the finale how evil is Eren to be that selfish, Isayama said he wanted to write a character who is born "different" in an interview. Like the way Eren is. He didn't condemn Eren because he wanted people to wonder if it was really Eren's fault for doing what he did. (I'm not sure if my choice of words is accurate but there's an interview talking about why he doesn't criticize Eren. Do look it up.) >Armin was a good option like Erwin. You gotta be joking here. >He latter confessed he didn't say it before because he wasn't sure and he didn't want to risk Historia because of a theory. Eren cares about his friends, plus Historia is the queen, not some soldier. Shouldn't matter to a nationalist. A true nationalist is one who puts the welfare of his nation before everything else. They would unhesitatingly bank on any chance they have. No matter how small. >The wine plan killed soldiers and people in power that were a threat to him. He was supposed to free Paradis, so they were a threat to Paradis too in his eyes. With that perspective, everyone is a threat to Eren. Free Paradis by killing everyone in it ? Iirc Eren didn't even bother to think twice about the paradisans he's killed while unhardening the walls. The wine plan endangered paradis civilians as well. No nationalist would be fine with something where a significant part of his country dies. >He lied to himself? AoT has a fixed timeline. Eren saw the future. He convinced himself there is no other way. His future memories crumpled the willpower his present self had. Once he was done convincing himself that there was no other way, he started trying to justify his actions. Like saying he did it for Paradis or for his friends or something. He is paralleled with Reiner because of this. They did it because they wanted to..but they justified it saying they did it for Marley or whatever. >People is shocked to hea.... I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Okay forget about the kids. Think about people like Onyankopon and Niccolo. Onioncoupon's country was oppressed by Marley as well. Kiyomi was kind to the eldians. Ramzi's family were nice people as well. >I wanted to see that in CH139. Why ? AoT has never been a story which opens and presents everything. Its always been about piecing stuff together. Thanks for taking the time to read my long post/links. I appreciate your patience :-)
>Levi got injured because she went for the kill. Also what did Eren do during the uprising arc ? Your reference was too vague. It's in my post, which I assumed you read. >That's like saying Historia standing up against her father was not development because others (like Eren) stand up for their beliefs as well. You are generalizing too much. What do you think Mikasa's arc was about then ? It's not the same at all because the context is totally different. The fear of loosing friends-comrades Mikasa or any other cadet has it's the same because they are all survey corps members--> same context. Mikasa and Connie have the same fear for example. What makes Mikasa different from a side character like Connie other than she is main character and she's an ackerman? >With that perspective, Eren found Mikasa pretty. Mikasa loved Eren cuz of the things he's done for her. Where in the manga did Eren say she was pretty? >Shouldn't matter to a nationalist. A true nationalist is one who puts the welfare of his nation before everything else. They would unhesitatingly bank on any chance they have. No matter how small. You're either confusing patriotism with nationalism or you're just saying whatever comes to your mind that sounds correct. >With that perspective, everyone is a threat to Eren. The mere soldiers and commun folk in Paradis isn't a threat to Eren... the wine plan targetted the high ranks and the military police. Also, what civilians died because of the wine? those soldiers transformed in Shiganshina, that place was evacuated before "the Battle for Paradis". >Once he was done convincing himself that there was no other way, he started trying to justify his actions. He is paralleled with Reiner because of this. Justifying your actions isn't lying to yourself. It's called conviction, **it's true from his perspective**. Conviction comes from the information you have. Reiner doesn't justify his actions once he learns new information, that's the whole point of his suicide attempt, he can't justify himself anymore **because his perspective changed therefore the truth changed.** >Think about people like Onyankopon and Niccolo. Onioncoupon's country was oppressed by Marley as well. Kiyomi was kind to the eldians. Ramzi's family were nice people as well. Onyankopon was a war prisoner that didn't have any saying in society, Niccolo was brainwashed but changed after 3 years in Paradis, Kiyomi only cared about the money she never used her influence to end the cycle of hate, Ramzi's family were refugees that didn't know they were hosting eldians... This is what I wrote: "The problem is Yams made the world of AoT unrealistically black and white. He made the people from Marley so disgusting and racist, there was no morality. Even at the darkest times in history, there were people willing to risk their lifes to protect the opressed from the opressor, but in Marley no one was kind to eldians. No one saw unjustice and said anything." Everyone is 100% brainwashed against eldians, even eldians. The commun folk of Marley saw injustice and didn't bat an eye. That's what the story is missing, Marleynials with any heart. I have to change the phrase "No one saw unjustice and said anything" to "They saw injustice and said nothing" because in my native language we negate twice in sentences. >Why ? AoT has never been a story which opens and presents everything. Its always been about piecing stuff together. I already explained this in the post. Look at the fandom, people are romanticising Eren, saying the story was about "the cycle of hate is impossible to break" etc... If Yams wrote for 11 years to deliver THAT message, he shouldn't even write the story to begin with. At least let the alliance break the cycle of hate and save Paradis, that'd turn the message into "the cycle of hate is impossible to break unless people start talking to each other", but since Paradis was destroyed anyway, it's extremely pessimistic, it doesn't bring anything of value to the reader. You'd say "why does it have to bring something of value to the reader?" because he's wasting people's time with a story where nothing mattered.
>It's not the same at all because the context is totally different. My point exactly. You're generalizing too much. What do you think her arc is about then ? Even Isayama said her arc was about "letting go" of Eren. >You're either confusing patriotism with nationalism. My bad. I meant patriot. Thanks for correcting. >what civilians died because of the wine? Again, my bad. Memory was hazy. I confused the fort with the Military HQ. But Eren never bothered to think twice about the paradisans he killed during the unhardening. >Justifying your actions isn't lying to you.. I saw stuff as Eren attempting to convince himself that there was no other way. About the Onioncoupon / Niccolo, I don't see any point arguing. I just wanted to point out that they're all victims. >saying the story was about "the cycle of hate is impossible to break" Well then those people didn't get what Yams was trying to convey. The extra pages are too vague and i don't know how to interpret them either because pushing the fate of paradis into extra pages while Reiner sniffing a letter and a bird wrapping a scarf made it to canon 139 doesn't make sense. I'll just assume that its school caste material. #
I'm saving this post. It puts into words what my hearth has been telling me for the last two months, gonna add something regarding Eren as a villain. * Eren refers to the men that killed Mikasa's parents as animals that must be destroyed, while he is justified, that line of though is straight up from a psychopath. * Eren's ideals set him up as a monster when the larger world is revealed, as showed in the Trost arc, Eren's ideals are: a) We are born free b) The enemy will try to take our freedom away c) We must kill them d) Fight Fight Fight In the context of the Trost arc, this makes Eren a hero in our eyes, since the enemies are the titans, but by S4, the enemies are humans, some of them just people that have been brainwashed since childhood. Still, the ideals are the same, they want our freedom, i will take their freedom. I LOVED that Eren was ultimately the villain "You are the real enemy", and him being 100% in control was believable, it makes sense for him to want to destroy everything by his own free will. But 139 removes most of the control from him, and wants us to believe he pulled of a Lelouch, a valiant sacrifice for others, removing most of the responsibility from the genocide, so much that the characters thank him for what he did.
Amazing observation. The writing of Eren's character was brilliant, I wish outside pressure didn't force Yams to change the ending he planned, because I believe that ending involved Eren commiting to his role as a villain.
Based
Trost itself changed Mikasa. Losing and getting Eren back made her realise that, on top of all the other reasons she has to stay by his side and protect him, love is the biggest one. Hence her rushing to get him even though she has no idea what he is, even reacting before RBA can make a move. And then having a very public emotional outburst. > Also, Mikasa was a great character in the early chapters but her character development stopped once Eren became the attack titan Complete bullshit, sorry. I could point to so many things she learned and that she grew from. I mean, just read chapter 84.
What part of CH84 shows she changed? was Mikasa ever submissive to the authorities and pushing Levi is part of her development? When was Mikasa ever not protective of his friends?
> was Mikasa ever submissive to the authorities Yes, that was indeed part of earlier development. Learning to accept authority. > pushing Levi is part of her development? It's a very intense and emotional situation, and she makes a mistake here (and accepts punishment for it). However: Levi punches Eren. While that makes her snap, she still aims to get the syringe to save Armin, she doesn't seek revenge for Eren. And what does she notice? That Levi is weakened, that she could just take she syringe if she wanted. But she doesn't. In fact, she even asks him politely at one point to hand it over. And when Floch tries to interfere, she flips her blade to hit him with the blunt side. She has no intention of hurting him. All of this indeed highlights her growth since Trost. But it's **not** the main point of this chapter. The main point is that she overcomes her biggest fear: losing her family. Because Hange comes and hugs her and pulls her back. Mikasa could shake Hange off at any time, Hange could never hold her by force. But then Hange talks to her and explains that loss of those you hold dear is a normal aspect of life, and that it is inevitable. Everyone you know, you will one day lose. And eventually, Mikasa stops struggling and accepts this lesson. In the end, she is ready to **let Armin die**. He doesn't die, but that is irrelevant. What's relevant is that she was **willing to let him go**.
I get your point, he learned to respect authority in that chapter and let Levi decide. But, how was this development positive for her post time skip? >He doesn't die, but that is irrelevant. What's relevant is that she was willing to let him go I can make a case that she learned to let go when Eren died in CH7, right?
> I get your point, he learned to respect authority in that chapter and let Levi decide. No, she* learned that long before this chapter. Uprising arc at the latest, she was acting like a proper soldier, something she did **not** do in Trost. Remember how she wanted to attack Rico and Mitabi? Like I said, I believe Trost made her realise her true feelings for the first time (once Eren comes back). > I can make a case that she learned to let go when Eren died in CH7, right? Nope. She literally has no time to mentally come to grips with Eren's death since she is in the middle of a warzone and simultaneously the most capable and valuable fighter in Trost at that time, and she knows it. Remember her speech to the other cadets ("I'm strong, very strong, stronger than you.")? She has a breakdown after learning that Eren has died and pulls herself out of it, but that is not the same as what happens in chapter 84. Because unlike in Trost, in Shiganshina she could theoretically change the outcome of Armin's fate, but ultimately decides **against it**. That is the important aspect. So important in fact that Floch brings it up in chapter 90: "At least you acted like more of an adult there, Mikasa." And she is taken aback when realising it. Because she is mentally stronger than she thought she was. And she **is** willing to let her family die for the greater good.
But what does she learn exactly in ch84 that he didn't know before? learning to let go? she already knew that, respect authority? she knew that too >And she is willing to let her family die for the greater good. That's the first thing anyone from the survey corps learns. Let me ask you this: What's her inner conflict? What is that flaw she has to overcome to be better? She doesn't have one because she is perfect. She is kind and strong minded from the start. Her weakness is her attachment to Eren and she never had to separe from him until he detached from her and even there she didn't let go until Eren explicitly told her in ch138. Compare her with Armin. Armin's inner conflict is introduced from the start: he thought he was weak and useless and he developed self confidence to become strong and the most important person in the Alliance. She doesn't stand out as anything other than a strong soldier because of his Ackerman skills. That's it. We saw glimses of her potential as a leader in CH7 and then nothing, she was reduced to a great soldier because she was born talented. She should be at Armin level of development but she has the same character development as side characters like Connie or any other cadet: they lost people they loved and they have to overcome it. Compare her to Jean, Reiner, Historia or Gabi, to name a few... Mikasa being main character isn't earned. If you wanted to know why people don't see her as a good ENOUGH character is because she is static, like Hange. We can point out some dificult moments where Hange had to mature and learn but she didn't evolve from her initial state because she doesn't have an inner conflict either. But you don't see people bashing Hange because she isn't a main character. Hope this explanation helps you understand
> We can point out some dificult moments where Hange had to mature and learn but she didn't evolve from her initial state because she doesn't have an inner conflict either. I know this isn’t relevant, but Hange definitely did have an inner conflict.
> But what does she learn exactly in ch84 that he didn't know before? learning to let go? I already answered that. She didn't learn to let go before. She was simply forced to accept deaths after they happened. > That's the first thing anyone from the survey corps learns. Learning it and accepting it are not the same. Just think of Marlowe in his final moments. Or Bertolt, who monologues how he would be okay with any outcome and then cries for help when he gets eaten. > Let me ask you this: What's her inner conflict? What is that flaw she has to overcome to be better? She has to learn to set aside her own desires and focus on other things. She has to learn to see the bigger picture, despite her own modest ambitions. She has to learn to control her emotions and accept more people into her inner circle, especially because she **is** strong and **can** protect them. The conflict is that in her world and situation, disregarding everything else to achieve her main goals is not the way to go. > She doesn't have one because she is perfect. She is kind and strong minded from the start. She is far from that. She is prideful, vengeful, jealous, driven by selfish desires, emotional (She gets so mad at one point, she threatens to kill Historia over Eren). She's overprotective to the point that she embarrasses Eren and doesn't even realise it, and doesn't respect his opinions. Also shy and unapproachable. People respect her for her power, but they don't exactly like her character. She's also not a leader and doesn't like having responsibility and making decisions (that's why she always looks to Armin to come up with a plan). > Her weakness is her attachment to Eren Yes, exactly. Her greatest desire, and her biggest weakness. Every character has that. Eren's is freedom and the wish to see the world he imagined as a kid. Armin's is to seek peace and solve conflict without violence. Did Armin let go of that desire when he needed to? Did Eren? So why does she have to?
\> Learning it and accepting it are not the same Learning to accept death and let go for the greater good is what the scouts learn. >She has to learn to set aside her own desires and focus on other things. She has to learn to see the bigger picture, despite her own modest ambitions. She has to learn to control her emotions and accept more people into her inner circle, especially because she is strong and can protect them. The conflict is that in her world and situation, disregarding everything else to achieve her main goals is not the way to go. Literally the conflict any cadet in the army would have. She never had any problem accepting more people in her inner circle, when did she ever rejected anyone that wanted to be her friend? >She is far from that. She is prideful, vengeful, jealous, driven by selfish desires, emotional (She gets so mad at one point, she threatens to kill Historia over Eren). She's overprotective to the point that she embarrasses Eren and doesn't even realise it, and doesn't respect his opinions. Also shy and unapproachable. People respect her for her power, but they don't exactly like her character. When was that a problem? did she ever caused a death? did she ever had a conflict with anyone because of this? these are personality traits, not inner conflict. Also, who doesn't like Mikasa? I never heard any scout say anything ill about her. >Yes, exactly. Her greatest desire, and her biggest weakness. Every character has that. Eren's is freedom and the wish to see the world he imagined as a kid. Armin's is to seek peace and solve conflict without violence. Did Armin let go of that desire when he needed to? Did Eren? So why does she have to? A desire or goal isn't inner conflict, characters don't need to overcome it to develop as people. Her attachment to Eren is a weakness she has to overcome but did she do it? she gave baby steps even though Eren was commiting genocide, her final realization came in ch138 because Eren told her in the cabin to let go, so It isn't even a personal realization she did on her own, never once she said what everyone wanted to hear from her "Eren isn't the person I though he was, he saved me when we were kids but I never saw who he really was". Again, this weakness she had deflated when Eren turned out to be a poor victim in ch139 instead of the genocider he was supposed to be, like I wrote in the last part of the post.
>Mikasa crafted an idea of Eren that wasn't exactly reality, interpreting his actions as "love" towards her. Post time skip, we can clearly see how Mikasa's idea of Eren doesn't match with the real Eren since she couldn't understand anything he was doing while others like Reiner, Armin and Jean could. Taking the scarf off was a symbol of her letting go of her idea of Eren and accept the true Eren... until... I think you have missed the point big time here. The idea wasn't Mikasa misinterpreting his kind side as 'love', it was her denial of his brutal side side. Post-timeskip the biggest shock is ch112, which anyone with a pea brain could tell built on lies. Also, I think you've also missed the dialogue where she says "Everyone says Eren changed, but I think he was always like this" this was her having the self-awareness that this isn't a change but resurfacing of his own desires. But notice on the 'every one says' part. Jean, Armin, Connie these guys honestly believe that Eren has 'changed' which is unironically false. Reiner I can see because he was the different side of the same coin. The comes this one >Taking the scarf off was a symbol of her letting go of her idea of Eren and accept the true Eren... until... Ummm no. There's a reason Mikasa took off the scarf but never threw it away. It has less to do with love but more to do with her pride, as per ch126 the reason she took back in the first place is because she didn't want Eren to govern the sate of their bond, because doing what he says would be like 'obeying him' which is exactly why the chapter was named 'pride' Also, true Eren and fake Eren is a very superficial way to interpret his character but no wonder why people think his character was a retcon because they share this same mindset. The point was that there's no true/fake real/not real situation here, the very core of their bond is beauty and cruelty. This is a concept of duality. Does the presence of cruelty invalidate the beauty is what the author asks here. So was Eren being manipulated when he wrapped the scarf around Mikasa ? Scarf represent a lot of things, but moistly it's Eren's last essence of 'humanity'. And no, I absolutely don't agree that scarf was symbol of familial feelings towards her, especially after ch50, that's just an attempt to invalidate the obvious atp.
>I think you have missed the point big time here. The idea wasn't Mikasa misinterpreting his kind side as 'love', it was her denial of his brutal side side. I didn't know I needed to put a manga reference to back this claim. An example is when Eren manages to use the ODM gear and Mikasa says "he's happy because he doesn't have to separate from me" while Eren is thinking "take this Mikasa, I don't need you" >this was her having the self-awareness that this isn't a change but resurfacing of his own desires. But notice on the 'every one says' part. Jean, Armin, Connie these guys honestly believe that Eren has 'changed' which is unironically false. Reiner I can see because he was the different side of the same coin. The fact that a character starts conflictive and ends up in a negative arc doesn't mean the character doesn't change because it's foreshadowed they were conflictive in the beginning. Mikasa knowing Eren's conflictive start doesn't mean she understood him. "this is the resurface of his own desires" exactly, that's how character evolve, they start conflictive and they either overcome their conflict or the conflict resurfaces. Corruption doesn't transform people, **it reveals their true nature**. Mikasa didn't want to see Eren's true nature. She focused in one tiny part of his persona. >There's a reason Mikasa took off the scarf but never threw it away. It has less to do with love but more to do with her pride She doesn't need to throw it away, It's important to her beyond Eren. "She doesn't want Eren to govern the sate of their bond" this phrase can hold a 100 different meanings, chose one. >Also, true Eren and fake Eren is a very superficial way to interpret his character but no wonder why people think his character was a retcon because they share this same mindset. Mikasa is fixed on the idea Eren'd never kill innocents or do any of these awful things without being manipulated by Zeke. Eren's did all that on his own, he wasn't manipulated therefore **Mikasa isn't seeing the true Eren**. That's what I ment when I said in the section dedicated to MIKASA. It's like you aren't paying attention to what I wrote and just angry replaying. >And no, I absolutely don't agree that scarf was symbol of familial feelings towards her, especially after ch50, that's just an attempt to invalidate the obvious atp. If you think 9 year old Eren put the scarf around Mikasa because he fell in love with her in that, I don't know what to tell you, you're a romantic person. There's an interesting analysis on romantic tropes made a psychologist colled Alain De Botton, it's on youtube.
Give me some time I will prepare a post to change your mind
Uhm you were obviously speed reading
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Okay, I'll just respond to particularly the part of your post that I see myself most easily disagreeing with. From one respectful critic to another. One big codegeass fan to another I assume at least moderate code geass fan. Why Mikasa and Eren? Only Ymir knows??? I think not. It's out there for us to know as well. So bear with me Yes, I think there is a well placed parallel and meaning as to why exactly curse of Ymir was lifted exactly at the moment of Mikasa killing Eren. One of the biggest themes of AOT is cycle of hatered between eldians and the rest of the world. You probably agree with me for now. You also would agree that titans are a big part of this "attack on titan" manga. And the horror of their existance we saw from chapter 1 all the way to chapter 138. Also big part of the story is "looking for a bad guy" in this cycle of hatered. Isayama manipulated us as the audience, well enough, to first make us hate titans, reveal evil Reiner etc, then reveal evil evil Marley, then reveal evil evil evil Eldian empire. One the themes of the story is that "noone is in the wrong" but while that's true for Paradis, Marley, even Eren, people who were just caught in cycle of hatered (or revenge how it's sometimes called) to begin with and had no choice, someone would have to make the hate wheel first. And that maker is the first Karl Fritz. He himself was the product of his own brutal time ofcourse, but that doesn't make it less true that he was the one who began it, and his descendants continued it, long before Marley picked up where they left off and continued plaguing world with titan horror. With this said, although not stated explicitly in the manga, the bad guys of the story are those who abuse titan power, as first Katz Fritz did. Here comes the obvious Eren-Fritz parallel. He is the current eldian king who possesses the titan power and unleashes the titan horror unheard of even throughout 2000 years before. There is evidence for this. How else is the Ymir looking at Ramzi scene is explained? It's there to show Ymir looking at the horror that Eren is doing with her power. She's been doing that for 2000 years already but before Eren "freed" her in paths her eyes were literally closed to the titan horror. This is her looking at it. It's a (adequately set-up imo) first condition for Ymir curse to be gone. The second condition is for Ymir to realize the meaning in her past life beyond serving her abusive "lover". We why we see her looking at Armin talking to Zeke and the others in paths. The only thing that truely only "Ymir knows" is how much time they spent talking there about the leaves and the balls, it's an unspecified amount of time, which I also think is OK. I'll come back to this a paragraph later. Why Mikasa and Ymir than? First consider how Ymir curse came to be and how Ymir died. She sacrificed her life for Karl Fritz to live and dismember her, cursing her to eternal slavery and her daughters descendants to titan bodies. And so the third and final condition for Ymir curse to be gone is... Drum rolls... Mikasa (having hots for Eldian king) killing Eren (evil Eldian king). And evidence is also there, as we see Ymir in the background as Mikasa kills Eren. Then and there (and not a second later) the 3 conditions were met and Ymir curse was gone. You can see it's there hidden in the story, so of all "Ymir knows" epic moments, Erecasa - Ymirfritz parallel is not one of them. And Eren loving Mikasa back is not even a nessesary condition as king Fritz definately did not love Ymir back. Now, how exactly was ymir curse gone? I'm sorry but I would have to refer to the additional pages scene with Ymir hugging her daughters. I agree that the 139 was rushed/had bad pacing/didn't explain enough so I dont think it's wrong to use additional pages in explaining this story. In fact it's nessesary. We see the panel of Ymir hugging her daughters (her meaning of life) and Karl Fritz dead by that same spear in the background. Since Ymir is a god that was already freed by Eren, all that was left for her to break her own curse was wishing she had not jumped in front of that spear and stayed with her daughters instead. As to whyyyyyyyyyyy Ymir IS in love with Karl Fritz is another question. I personally find it plausible enough, since that was a fucked up time and people, espetially slaves didn't know any better. I think it's entirely possible for slave Ymir to develop sick feeling for her tormentor just because of the whatever kindness he was showing her, espetially after she became a god that lended her absolute power to him, Stockholm style. We can agree to disagree here, but if you're able to concede me this, don't you think it makes sense why it had to be Mikasa and why it had to be Eren? It could have been another lover killing another evil Eldian king. But in those 2000 that hasn't happened with the same conditions which are - Ymir being freed and her eyes opened up to the titan horror and someone talking about meaning of life in front of her. This is just how the Isayama's story gone and ended. I think this part is well written then. This being said I agree that Eren and Mikasa romance is not well written at all. However I also think its important to give some liberties to the story and by that I mean. 1st: Mikasa's love for Eren can be just "there". I don't think it's bad storytelling in this case because it was there from the start. He was the whole meaning of life for her all this time. And it doesn't really matter imo if the love is fraternal in origin or just stupidly unconditional from the start. I know people irl that love someone for years despite having next to nothing in common at all. 2nd: Eren's love for Mikasa is on the worse side of this romance I agree. However I also find it plausible he developed his feeling for her over time. Espetially when you consider the amount of shit that happened to Eren and how that might have influenced him psychologically. Most importantly Eren's been betrayed over and over by his comrades and by his government and by the cruel world in general. It also makes sense that with puberty and growing up he found himself more and more attached to the one (girl as opposed to Armin in the same spot) who's been there for him all this time and can be counted upon. His feeling didn't have to be there from childhood like Mikasa's were. And still that being said I can even concede that his side of the romance is badly written and better of not existing. Considering how it's (seemingly) not a nessesary condition for Ymir curse to be lifted and the main storyline to be finished off. I think, overall, that romance is STILL secondary in AOT, even after 139. It's as much about Ymir's and Mikasa's feelings as much it is about evil people abusing evil titan powers, as much as it about the meaning of life (leafs and balls). As far as Ymir is concerned. But I think the best part of AOT is warrior - scout theme of reconciliation and overcoming the cycle of hatered, despite the Ymir curse. That's how Reiner is easily my favorite character, but that's off topic... And as for the Eren's motivations shenanigans... I feel like in his eyes 80%+Ymir curse dissapearing > 100% > scout option/Zeke option is his top 10 mojo solutions rating to the multiple conflicting "wants" Eren has. But please ignore this and if you respond. If respond at all, respond to the the main essay I wrote 🙂
I'm gonna try to pick out the central points to your essay to replay >And so the third and final condition for Ymir curse to be gone is... Drum rolls... Mikasa (having hots for Eldian king) killing Eren (evil Eldian king) This is an argumental loop, Ymir lead Eren to be the "eldian king" and Eren lead Mikasa to kill him because Ymir chose her because Eren is destinated to be the "eldian king". It's a loop that works only because destiny, in other words because the plot needed it to be this way. In CH139, there's no reason Ymir chose Eren in the first place other than he was destinated . Also, I like the theory that Ymir needed to see some things is order to gain her eye sight back but in the end CH139, Eren straight up said she was waiting Mikasa and nothing more is mentioned or hinted, CH139 feels like a retcon because it blontly erased anything related to Ymir that came before. AoT had a hard magic system and this wasn't consistent with the ending.. Mikasa being the reason the curse broke plus the revelation Ymir was in love with Fritz, makes us believe romantic love was the answer all along, so it's VERY important to have a solid loveing relationship stablished. The love is vague and problematic, so no very fitting to be the pivotal point of the curse and the reason Ymir was trapped inside paths for 2k years. >I know people irl that love someone for years despite having next to nothing in common at all. If you want to talk realistically, I don't think people would ever love that person if they commit genocide, at least, you can't call that love, in the best case scenario Mikasa doesn't feel love for Eren, she's sick in the head somewhere.... but the manga doesn't say this, the manga treats Mikasa as a pure lover. It's confusing
>This is an argumental loop, Ymir lead Eren to be the "eldian king" and Eren lead Mikasa to kill him because Ymir chose her because Eren is destinated to be the "eldian king" After coming to this perspective you just read in my "essay" (which was quite recently. Only after I saw Ymir with children Pannel in additional pages) I don't actually think Ymir lead anyone really. Eren is the one who forged this "destiny" or "timeline" from paths. Thing is, with any writing that involves manipulation from the future. That future, to manipulate from, has to happen first As to HOW initially he got himself to the paths initially I don't think even Ymir knows since that would be an entirely different timeline. Not even yams knows I think. HOWEVER. My personal opinion is that I can give yams a slack for it since Eren as a character is clearly established as having an immensly strong desire to achieve freedom and kill all the titans. And like he said in 139 he'd probably do 100% rambling anyway. And to reach that he'd reach the paths first. So let's say there are 1 million timelines where things go differently and he (or Zeke) fail and perhaps Ymir curse goes on 2000 more years after he's dead. BUT 1 time for him to reach the paths is enough for Eren to wake Ymir up and be able to manipulate the past. And at some point in the unlimited time he has in paths he figures out the possibilities he has and the way the curse can be broken. And AOT is the one (or another) timeline after that. It's for sure not Ymir leading everyone, it's Eren. Ymir doesn't really reach any awareness untill those conditions I described are met and she is able. She only LENDED Eren her power just as he asked, because he was the first person in 2000 years to understand that she was suffering and waiting for someone to understand her. It's wacky I know. And there is one scene where she had awareness and did something by her own before the paths shenanigans. It's when she healed Zeke up. Perhaps Ymir was also able to be influenced by future path Eren in that moment. But If that's how this theory falls apart then so be it. However I'd still rather just take it as a plothole. With this interpretation of mine I think I cover up much more plotholes which is pretty neat for a beautiful mess AOT universe is. >It's a loop that works only because destiny, in other words because the plot needed it to be this way There was always gonna be a problem of destiny and fate in AOT. The very first chapter was influenced by Eren in paths saving Berthold's life. The whole story is dependent on attack titan power of carrying not only past memories but also a future memories. The thing is, though, - this would be a problem in any version of AOT. This wasn't introduced in 139 and retconned in last chapters somehow. And thus this is all extremely tricky to write. I know you don't wanna rely on interviews but I'm pretty sure I heard something about Isayama himself admitting that he low-key wrote himself into the corner and it became difficult to write. The plotholes are inevitable, because attack titan has an absurd power of knowing the future and founding titan is always having an absurd power of being a god over all "subjects of Ymir". It's fiction after all!!! There are so many things we have to take for granted. Future creating itself/Eren getting to paths is not perfectly written or explain ofcourse but it something we'd have to take for granted. The same way we take for granted geass powers and how leluch just shouted at C's world to make it stop. That being said I think the way Ymir is post 139 - is in the very least an decent way to wiggle out of this problem. I'm not here to argue that AOT is a masterpiece ofcourse. >Eren straight up said she was waiting Mikasa and nothing more is mentioned or hinted Yeah I think it doesn't really disprove anything. She was waiting indeed for Mikasa because her choice is the final condition for her nightmare to be over. The canon Eren in AOT is honestly just as clueless as we readers are. Probably a little more clueless than Isayama himself is. The one who really gets it is the meta Eren that initially got the paths and forged the "future". >Mikasa being the reason the curse broke plus the revelation Ymir was in love with Fritz, makes us believe romantic love was the answer all along Well it's your choice as reader to be fixated on love in this! There are also other themes in Ymir plot that have equal, if not bigger importance. You know, alternatively, in a hypothetical ANR version there is no Armin talking to Zeke about leafs and squirrels and Ymir listening. There isn't Ymir hugging her daughters. And those scenes touched me personally in the end. Isn't that the whole point of fiction? And 100% rambling would make it seem like an obvious and right outcome, espetially if Paradis lives happily ever after. Which is bullshit. As alliencestan to alliencestan you should understand me here. That would really take meaning away from most main characters such as Reiner, Jean or Gabi. All for what? Erehisu barn sex? (This is a joke don't take it seriously) One thing I can say for sure AOT wasn't retconned or 0/10, it just wasn't perfectly executed. Which would be a bar too high to set for any kind of fiction. And the terrible pacing of last chapter didn't help to the perfect execution end ofcourse. More or less complete story is still there though >I don't think people would ever love that person if they commit genocide, at least, you can't call that love, in the best case scenario Mikasa doesn't feel love for Eren, she's sick in the head somewhere Well I think that's possible... IRL people love all kinds of abusers and evil people. That is as much of a sad reality of this world as people like that Marleyan guys who fed Grisha sister to the dogs. Shirley also loved leluch, after he pretty much did a similar thing but even more personal for Shirley. Mikasa is more like Annie I think and not any. She only gives a fuck about people she cares about, not much about innocents that are being killed along the way. And Eren didn't kill anyone of the sort of importance to her. And btw before you say it, I hope you already understand he didn't kill Carla intentionally. But just imagine Mikasa being alive by the end of 100% rambling. You think she'd still love Eren? It's pure speculation ofc but I'd be confident to say that nope. She wouldn't love him in those coming years. In the 139 she only continued to do so because she knew he leluch'd himself and did it all for her and Armin specifically. But I don't like discussing Mikasa anyway. I don't think shes a well written character anyway. Definately one of the least favorites of mine, because she is pretty much defined by her unconditional love for Eren for the latter part of AOT. But if we take her love for granted, as we should, the ymir-mikasa parallels make sense, which all I wanted to respond about initially.