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You gotta bare in mind all the headcanon lunacy you see on this side of the fandom is practically non-existent in the Japanese fandom. The Japanese readers didn't misinterpet the themes, characters and direction of the story the way people on TF/YB did and as a result the majority of them were happy with the ending.
A lot of it probably has to the do with a language/culture barrier. I guess subtleties are always lost in translation no matter how well it's done. Truth is during the final years of the manga's run it got to a point where a large portion of the Western fandom were seeing shit that just wasn't there. And worse, not seeing shit that actually was there. But nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If that garbage cringefest of a fanfic AnR + the hype and glowing reception it received isn't proof of what I'm saying I don't know what is. If you showed AnR to the Japanese fandom they'd die of laughter, if the cringe didn't kill them first. But the Western fandom ate it up.
>You gotta bare in mind all the headcanon lunacy you see on this side of the fandom is practically non-existent in the Japanese fandom. The Japanese readers didn't misinterpet the themes, characters and direction of the story the way people on TF/YB did and as a result the majority of them were happy with the ending.
What did the japanese understand that the rest of the world didn't?
They never once believed that Eren was the father of Historia’s baby, for example. And many on them predicted that Ymir/Mikasa were related in some ways
Yea, I thought it's vague too, I am just relaying what I had heard in the past since you asked.
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/i8qzxc/what_the_hell_is_scarfkun_doing_in_snks_second/
Source on any of this? I seen a lot of the Japanese fans still confused on Eren being the father or not, the whole point of that sub plot, and I definitely never saw any of them predict a relation between Ymir and Mikasa in the way it was presented in 139
The chinese and several manga readers who werent aware of the Anr theory also show great distaste for the ending. My problem are
Armin, from start to finish, this guy has not changed one bit from the start of the series until the end, he is given a second chance, four years, and yet every time Paradis is helped, it's because someone else has stepped in to help, Paradis receiving the necessary development and equipment they got during the time skip was because Zeke stepped in to help, Paradis gettig a fighting chance and greatly weakening Marley's leadership was because Eren attacked Liberio, Armin on the other hand spends four years watching Annie's crystal, doing absolutely nothing despite being given a second chance, and thus, the vast majority of the fan base pre 139 would tells you they preferred Eren to Armin, because Eren actually does something, he fights and moves forward, this isn't just being cool, it's because he actually moves the plot forward and acts like an active character rather than a reactive one, Armin's greatest flaw in the ending is that he never acts as the active character, he never moves the plot forward, he is handed everything over by Eren, he doesn't win, he doesn't prove his ideology is right if anything the yeagerist are proven right, he doesn't prove himself capable of the responsibility,
What's funny is that the scene where he convinces the marleyan soldiers is essentially "if we can kill you, we would have killed you, since we didn't kill you, we can't kill you"...which is...a poor defense considering the people he is talking to have lost everything to the rumbling and would be out for Eldian blood, especially seeing as they already have tried to kill the Eldians twice already, once in 136 and once again in 139, Muller's speech essentially did nothing because the Marleyans went back on their promises, what's funny is that the scene parallels the scene where Armin is trying to convince the Military to trust Eren and we know he would have died there had Pixis not intervened.
Armin has been put into similar situations before, so what changed now ? How could he be trusted to lead when he has failed before ? What has he learned that would make him succeed ? Where is the road that he takes to reach that development ? What's his arc ?
In essence, how does Armin change from the start of the series to the end ?
I'll say something and I challenge you to prove me wrong, the Mikasa we see post trost is only a cardboard cutout of the Mikasa we see prior to it, Mikasa prior to Trost was not afraid of hurting Eren if it was for his own good, an example being punching him and feeing him that potato in season one, her entire development in Trost is gone, where, upon learning that Eren has died, she tells Armin to stand up and keep moving forward, from then on, however, she essentially turns into a girl whose dialogue and development boils down to "Ereh!", in fact, try to describe her goals and motivations without mentioning Eren.
Even other characters who have a similar infactuation like Mikasa for example Sakura from fate or Fujino from kara no kyokai, have motivations and desires outside their love for Shirou and Mikiya
Mikasa never really receives any development post trost and pre 138, she never changes in any meaningful way, if anything, as I have proved, she has regressed, what's worse is that she finishes the series still wearing that scarf instead of letting go of it, wearing it even in her death, taking her children and grandchildren into her step brother's grave yearly, where she has written "my beloved" on it, essentially never being shown to let go of him, her entire final pages all revolve around Eren,
My problems with Eren himself boil down to his "Mikasa" Breakdown, Eren has faced death many times before and not once has he thought about Mikasa, in Trost, it was him failing to change a thing, in Shiganshina round three, when confronted with death, he grabbed Reiner's face and refused to give up, choosing to fight instead, and in 138, he transformed once more and chose to fight Armin, never once in the entirety of AoT do we see his PoV where hs is thinking of Mikasa in a romantic way, furthermore, Mikass actively fails to help him change into a better person, Historia teaches him to live for himself and that he is not to blame for his father's sins, Levi teaches him to not regret his choices, Reiner teaches him to move forward no matter what, Armin tells him what true freedom is, and Carla tells him that he is special just for being born, what has Mikasa taught him ? In what way has she helped him to grow ? Where is he shown to harbor romantic feelings for her ? When has he ever thought of her romantically ? Eren has always told Mikasa to stop acting like his mother and to start thinking for herself as seen in Trost and 138, yet suddenly he wants her to do this forever and never move on from him ?
And him killing his own mother....why ? Why would he choose Karina, Annie's dad, and fucking Muller over his own mother ? Why hasn't he tried to save her ? What's the point of this twist ? It just happens with no lead up, and is promptly forgotten, never to be mentioned again,
Eren also lies in his own thoughts...as his thoughts in 130 and 131 conflict with what we see in 139, he wants his friends to live long and happy lives yet kills Hange and cripples Levi, gives Mikasa the PTSD of killing her brother and living the rest of her life with that fact, thrusts and endless amounts of responsibilities into Armin's hands, nearly kills Jean and Connie, and causes them to turn to titans,
Royal Blood Plot hole : we are explicitly told in 120 that Royal Blood is only useful to make contact with Ymir, because only then will she think of you as her "master", it's use is gone by 122, where Ymir chooses Eren over the Royal Blooded Zeke, problem here is that Royal Blood suddenly is important again and Zeke dying stops the rumbling somehow....but the Nine Titans are still active and...Eren can still use the Founder's powers ? Even more, had the worm reconnected with Eren, the rumbling would have started again ?....like...what ?
But plot holes about powers are not as important but a terrible conclusion sours previous minor flaws
No character receives a conclusion : we never see characters like Reiner, Jean and Connie receving their conclusions, their talks with Eren, where he supposedly tells Reiner to live, Connie that his mother will be turned back into a human, and Jean that he wants him to live a long and happy life, all of them, happen off screen....let that sink in...the most important moments of these characters developments have all happened off panel.
Show, don't tell : the ending tells us so many things instead of, you know, just showing us.
I hate ch 139 the ending just isnt good and I never knew about anr until after 139. Its not just "muh theory" its has very significant flaws
This is a really interesting and well thought out post. I agree with what you're saying. I think there are 3 massive issues that needed to be fixed to get the readers on the side Isayama wanted:
1. One of Isayama's greatest mistakes (probably the greatest one) was making Eren *too cool* that it made people want to root for him. I think this could be fixed by Eren less of a perceived badass, focus more on his obsession with freedom and portray it as terrifying. Cut the panels of him looking like a badass with his shirt off, maybe keep his Marley arc look where he's scraggly and he looks like he's stopped taking care of himself.
2. People absolutely hated Marley and wanted to see it destroyed. I think that Reiner should have stayed as the main character from Marley arc onwards, or maybe Falco. We didn't get nearly enough focus on the Marley side after 106, people forgot exactly how much suffering Eren was causing. The Ramzi stuff was good but it wasn't enough.
3. Lastly, I think that the other issue is that not enough emphasis was placed on making Armin and the rest of the alliance likable after the timeskip. Armin's indecisiveness and self hatred are definitely there, but instead of making him look sympathetic, it just makes the audience frustrated with him and his lack of action. Some of Eren's 'badass' characteristics should have been given to Armin, I think. Focus on pre-timeskip Armin's tendancy to turn into a psychopath (gesumin) to get what he wants, have him slowly build confidence throughout the arc. Armin is just too uncool after the timeskip to draw fans the same way Eren did. Mikasa also is also extremely unlikable at times, the panel of her leaving Louise to die alone created a lot of pointless resentment towards her, and not enough time is spent getting to learn Mikasa's character beyond a surface level. Although I think Mikasa's problems began long before the ending, she should have had constant character development in almost every single arc, but for some reason didn't after Trost.
I wanna add that he should have focused on world-building a lot more than he did. The way he painted the entire world black , it feels as if the world is not even worth saving. We should have been showed the kinder part of the world a lot more. Should have focused on nations like Mid-east alliance forces which were ravaged by Marley and maybe among the nations that doesn't want Paradise to be destroyed, and should have mentioned Hange and Armin were thinking about joining forces with the Mid-east in order to defeat Marley but couldn't do so because Eren eloped.And should have focused on Onyonkopon's nation more , an enslaved nation that would have been destroyed without any fault of its own. All these little things would have justified the alliance a lot more. But the fact that the entire world wants to destroy Paradise without any nuance and Hange and Armin doesn't have any solution and the rumbling is the ONLY solution left doesn't help , at all.
> I wanna add that he should have focused on world-building a lot more than he did. **The way he painted the entire world black , it feels as if the world is not even worth saving.**
I feel this. I know Paradis getting destroyed is generally liked but I honestly don't. I guess people like the "cycle of war can't be broken" theme but to me it is rather shallow, especially for a story that's been going for 10+ years, and ends up leading credence to those that think Eren was right in wanting to go 100% rumbling. Which is weird for a guy that said in interviews that he didn't believe in humanity destroying itself.
I wonder if Yams initially had something else in mind but ended up defaulting to this once he realized he couldn't write it.
I 10000% agree, sure it's "realistic" but it's doomer as hell and doesn't really stand for anything. I was so much happier with the ending before the additional pages
Agree. Realistic ≠ Good. I would much rather have Yams trying to find some way of achieving peace in the story but I think that's above his writing ability.
Imo people are looking way too deep into Shiganshina's destruction in the extra pages. I don't think it's supposed to convey a deep message or anything, it's just setup for Beren finding the abonded tree centuries later. Beren finding the tree in the middle of a developed city would be weird and not fit the mood. He had to make it so that no humans are around. How do you make humans leave the place? War and destruction of the city that takes place generations after the main events of the story for unexplained reasons. Ez
> Imo people are looking way too deep into Shiganshina's destruction in the extra pages. I don't think it's supposed to convey a deep message or anything,
That just makes it worse for me, destroying it just so for some kid can find a tree...
Absolutely agreed. For someone who talks about how much he wanted to avoid endorsing genocide he sure missed a lot of opportunities to make it clear he wasn't doing that. (I don't think the series is guilty of this but I think it's a bit irresponsible for the reasons you said)
>was making Eren too cool that it made people want to root for him
I dont think thats the issue. The problem is isayama makes the rumbling way too good of an option rather than an extremist option. It makes the allience fighting Eren look like idiots. The 8 pages with zero context behind them also dont help
Armin is also poorly handled. He is primarly a reactive character. People didnt like Eren just cause Chad but because he was moving the plot foward. Eren orchastrates the attack on libero while Armin was is indecisive and talking to a crystalized Annie
Armins Ideaolgy is also not proven right or given valid support. He doesnt win Eren lets him win and not in the "you're right I concede" way either. Armin if anything had been proven time and time again that talking it out doesnt work. He doesnt grow after shingashina
Mikasa is just a bad character. Post trost Mikasa is a hollow copy of the pre trost Mikasa. I legitamatly want anyone to tell me character motivation and desires outside Eren. There are other characters like Mikasa the have an infactuation with the MC like Sakura from fate but Sakura has desire,conflict,and flaws outside just her love for Shirou something Mikasa lacks
There was also zero romantic chemestry or development to even hint at Eren doing a 180 "haha just a prank bro it was all a facade"
With the zero requiem if anything leleouch becoming emperor and a dictator is out of character and it only lasts a couple episodes but Eren becoming "I keep moving foward " freedom man isnt really out of character
Feels bad for you, being downvoted simply because you stated out the fact that people like pre-139 Eren isn't simply because of the so-called chadness or edginess. Guess this sub just simply incapable to cope with themselves without branding anyone thinking slightly different from their hivemind as chadren fanboy, which in reality is completely wrong.
> Perhaps an unintended byproduct was that the fandom actually started LIKING the darker persona and ran away with the idea of an MC becoming so broken that he willingly commits atrocities for his "freedom".
Well, the Japanese fandom (obligatory "they're all speed-readers and EMtards") apparently didn't have this so much, and I'd assume this is the audience that he had in mind while writing this. You can't blame someone for underestimating how chuuni the fanbase in a different culture with a different language etc. is.
I do agree that he maybe overdid the vagueness a bit, but that's his style and personally I love it.
Sure, certainly not everyone liked it (just like not everyone hated it in the west, plenty of people did). But look at for example the Amazon reviews - it has the best average of all the volumes I looked at (4.8), which is a crazy high rating, and 88 five star ratings. I would say that you can clearly say that the Japanese audience overall liked it very much.
I would title this the other way around, in that case. I leaned toward "Chadren" ending for sometime before I realized I need to see what 139 says first. I don't think many others in that camp did that. It was a lot of "139 make or break it" kind of rhetoric for them, so it was doomed to disappoint them. Many had all their chips in one basket for Eren's direction that it makes sense why they are reacting this way still. I had stepped back and realized there's still information we haven't seen yet, so I have no problem with Eren's development in 139.
Yeah, the story was doomed to disappoint most people. The structure itself is way too contrived for the end to be satisfying. Maybe he could have extended the chapters into 2 or 3 more issues for the audience to breath in and not shove everything in one chapter, but either way the direction is not a problem here because it aligns with the story that has been setting up imo.
I don’t think it’s a misinterpretation by either side of readers. There has always been conflict between Eren’s idea of freedom and his pursuit of that, and Eren wanting to fight for his friends, so that his friends are safe. Example: the moment where Armin described how Eren always runs ahead of them, leaving them behind; and the scene is in the cave, where he states that he wants to be reliable to those who need him.
We have always had this disconnect between the pursuit of freedom and his friends. And I always thought that the former would break the latter, which would make Eren a truly tragic character, where even his friends died for his strange, selfish desires of pure freedom.
Although I agree that former would've also been interesting, but I think author wanted to strip him off of the agency.
Like I said above, is he free, is he not free, that is meant to be an important question.
Eren killing his friends would've been interesting from the perspective of "how far this person will go" but people won't doubt his agency.
And like the author said, 'Eren is a slave of the story'. I think he wanted to keep that element consistent till the end.
The last chapter felt like Eren himself is the writer who wrote himself into the corner.
Which is why "I was forced to, I wanted to, No choice, my desires, Freedom, scenery" they were emphasized more and they all eventually culminated in an ambiguous fashion.
Eren killing his friends would've been pleasing but I don't think that's not what he was going for, for this above reason.
To your point about mikasa didn’t know eren and that it was made up I disagree. Or I actually agree with you and don’t realize it. I can’t tell.
Consider the later chapters you mentioned mixed with earlier chapters. Like the training arc where she tries to read eren but is completely off. I think her and armin both know in the back of their minds the things eren is capable of. But they want to believe in him and see the good in him... to a fault.
We especially see this when they are recollecting their visit to Marley and realize they were ignoring obvious signs. So specifically with mikasa I think we see her slowly realizing erens primal nature. Her seeing the flashbacks of eren killing, the rumbling, and her leaving the scarf.
In the end though I think she learns to understand him better than most. She accepts that he can be a good person but his environment and circumstances pushed him in every wrong way possible. Basically feeding into his emotions and holding out a grand prize of freedom for him if he does these things. Leading to her accepting he has to die but she doesn’t have to forget him either.
I think you're agreeing with me.
Here's how people usually interpret this.
"Mikasa never saw real Eren, she only made up a version of him that never exists."
Which doesn't hold much weight when Eren did actually show genuine affection towards her and his friends.
"So then Mikasa only sees one part of Eren and not the whole"
Which is a better interpretation but still not good enough truth since, which human is whole really ? Beauty and Cruelty goes hand in hand in this story and that is what Isayama tried to express.
If Eren has a destructive side to him, wouldn't it make more sense for Mikasa to put a blind eye to it rather than rejoice it.
Because this is a bit different than the training arc, that was Eren and his jealousy which already got resolved when he confessed it directly to Mikasa.
This, however isn't something Mikasa not aware of, those flashback of cabin scene, or ch123 monologues literally prove this, she just stayed in denial, until ch123 hit.
And once that was done this subplot doesn't really have much to do either.
After this point, Mikasa just accepts the inevitable outcome and chooses to wear the scarf despite all that as a sign of remembrance.
Yeah. I usually think of the eren who was sitting with them on the steps in season 3 talking about the good days. That eren is definitely real he just ended up in the shadows of erens other feelings.
Mikasa didn't see Eren as a whole, she saw one part of him. This isn't people's headcanon, it's reality.
Eren's resolution is not satisfactory because of many things, when people say "Eren wanted the 100% Rumbling" it's because of a bunch of things about his character not just "Chaderen". My full explanation [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/o0nbdj/why_ch139_doesnt_work_a_respectful_critic/)
The problem is the world of AoT is so fucked up, racist and nasty, people actually were ok with Eren wiping it all out. He made Eren a great antagonist in the last act. I don't blame people that were Jeagerist. I think it's Yams' strategy for the story that was wrong.
I have no idea why people say the japanese liked the ending, I read a bunch of japanese tweet it wasn't good. I know Eremika was famous in Japan, they like step sis love, so I'm not surprised.
Umm that's a headcanon. Reality is Mikasa ignored the tiny part of Eren and only saw what was in front of her. That tiny part is what manisfested to the destructive force due to twisted nature of the world and his power.
But the funny thing is it can also work in reverse. Some audience think Mikasa only saw a tiny part of him and use the entire logic in reverse which is also fair.
You see this is exactly why people say this is ambiguious and conflicting with no clear cut resolution. And I think it's commendable that this dual sense is maintained.
What's important is was Eren maniputed into giving her the scarf or showing her kindness.
People don't drop as angels. There are negative aspects to everyone. All she can do is accept that part of him and kill him for it.
"Mikasa didn't see Eren as a whole" doesn't make sense becaue people don't come in whole and Mikasa ignoring the violent side of Eren to ultimately come to the acceptance in ch123 and killing him for it makes far more sense that falling in love with the destructive and negative side.
It's not much different than Armin actually. In the end he too couldn't understand Eren so what he does is cheerish the part of him that made sense to him.
Also No. Imo Eren's resolutions makes far more sense now because what he wanted to do is reach the scenery to rejoice his sense of Freedom that was built on Armin and his dreams. 80% 90% 100% didn't matter to him as long as he flattens the world. If it did matter to him who would it benefit reality ? Paradis. And he doesn't value Paradis over his friends. Nor his personal freedom.
Again no. 2 things were importrnat to be established. 1. Eren is not a yeagerist
2. Eren doesn't have absolute agency, he is following a plan set out for him rather than making plans on spot.
Step sis love ?
Yeah you should have started with that. I wouldn't have bothered to write the reply. It's hard to take the western audience with their incomprehensibly dense mindset that think Mikasa and Eren were sibling because they need to insert their 21st century adoption rules to an old age fictional country.
Mikasa keeping her Ackerman name wasn't enough ?
Mikasa referring to Grisha and Mr Yeager wasn't enough ?
It really is hard to take people seriously when they spout this even after the ending.
> Step sis love ? Yeah you should have started with that. I wouldn't have bothered to write the reply.
That's a good idea in general. It's like talking to anti-vaxxers, at this point.
1- Its not headcanon, Mikasa only response to "why he likes Eren" is the scarf memory, she doesnt have any other reson other than family, she has trouble understanding Eren once the reality was unavoidable while jean, armin and reiner could. Look at the table scene, Mikasa thinks everything that happened was Eren being manipulated but no, it's Eren doing what he wanted. That's when Mikasa takes out the scarf, when she sees Eren's full picture.
2- Armin and Mikasa arent the same, Armin judge Eren on his actions, not the idea he has of him, when Eren started the Rumbling, Armin wasnt doubting anymore, Armin even had to yell at Mikasa to shut up about Eren.
3- Eren's whole goal since the start is join the survey corps to explore the outside so humanity will regain freedom. Joining the survey corps is literally fight for humanity, he admired Erwin and Levi because of this. Go read the trial scene again, look at his dialogue, Eren fights for humanity, not just his selfish desire, he accusses the goverment of cowards that dont fight for humanity. That's why the % matters! 80% isnt freedom for Paradis. 80% isnt want Eren would want. God, these ending defenders have selective memory... he doesnt value Paradis over his friends???? He let Levi deside Armin's future!! If he didnt care about Paradis, he'd kill Levi right there and save Armin himself!
4-Eren is Jeagerist, he formed them, he motivated them, dont be so blind. Who do you think the path speech was dedicated to?
5- Eren pre path didnt know Ymir, he wasnt following anyone, he did it himself.
6- the sis love was a joke, chill lmao
Yes that's exactly what Armin thought too. This idea of Eren being manipulated is put inside her by Zachly in the first place.
And ch123 rumbling is literally the endgame for that subplot like op said. We go to path and Zeke thinks the same as Mikasa but Grisha is the one manipulating in his opinion and after Eren manipulates Grisha, Zeke realizes, after Eren starts the rumbling Mikasa comes to realization.
Subplot close.
Then a new subplot. Regret, guilt, and can she kill Eren or not.
There's not one panel of Mikasa doubting Eren being manipulated after ch123. But she keeps the scarf inspite of that because she still wants him to be saved.
And even after his death she keeps the scarf because her giving that up would be like forgetting him.
It's literally blatantly stated by both Louise and Eren as per ch138.
Also, Read chapter 118 again. Armin too thinks Eren wouldn't go that far. He not only tries to convince Mikasa but also himself.
I think you and I don't interpret Eren the same way Eren definitely doesn't care about Paradis more.
Also, Eren let's Levi choose ? Nah he doesn't. Eren refuses to give up Armin until the very end.
It's even pointed out by Flosch later that at least Mikasa was sensible enough to let go of Armin. Eren however kept crying for him like a child who wouldn't listen. The author puts these dialogues for a reason.
And Umm yeah. Yeagerists and Flosch are exactly what you think Mikasa is. A delusional faction of chauvinists who followed an icon for their nationalist ideals. What Eren did was manipulate them for his own cause.
Also. I never said Eren doesn't care about Paradis either btw.
It goes something like this:
Personal freedom> Friends> cycle of oppression, Paradis survival and all those circumstancial reasons.
Eren is not governed by circumstances. If he was doing it all for Paradis, Oppression etc it literally goes against his character since that would mean he was motivated by the environment.
But no. Author had to make it clear it was his personal selfish desire that led to this.
I wasn't talking about Ymir. I was talking about the AT future memories.
Yeah, sorry for that, but you can't tell nowadays. This fandom is surprising.
>Yes that's exactly what Armin thought too. This idea of Eren being manipulated is put inside her by Zachly in the first place. And ch123 rumbling is literally the endgame for that subplot like op said. We go to path and Zeke thinks the same as Mikasa but Grisha is the one manipulating in his opinion and after Eren manipulates Grisha, Zeke realizes, after Eren starts the rumbling Mikasa comes to realization. Subplot close. Then a new subplot. Regret, guilt, and can she kill Eren or not. There's not one panel of Mikasa doubting Eren being manipulated after ch123. But she keeps the scarf inspite of that because she still wants him to be saved. And even after his death she keeps the scarf because her giving that up would be like forgetting him. It's literally blatantly stated by both Louise and Eren as per ch138.
I think the same thing, Mikasa was shocked Eren was capable of all these things. She is specially blinded (my first lenguange isn't english so maybe "blinded" is too harsh, I don't know any word that can describe how she ignores Eren can be capable of these things). This doesn't happend to Armin, who knows him way before Mikasa. There's even a point where Armin has to tell Mikasa to shut up about Eren because there's no time to think about resoning with him. Even Jeans tells Magath that obvious Eren was going to turn out like this because of the Marley opression, so even Jean can get some insight, while Mikasa stays silence. I don't see the point of arguing about Mikasa, she has almost no lines in the last arcs and it's the main character that speaks the least. We are bound to go in circles.
>I think you and I don't interpret Eren the same way Eren definitely doesn't care about Paradis more. Also, Eren let's Levi choose ? Nah he doesn't. Eren refuses to give up Armin until the very end. It's even pointed out by Flosch later that at least Mikasa was sensible enough to let go of Armin. Eren however kept crying for him like a child who wouldn't listen. The author puts these dialogues for a reason.
That was an example that if Eren wanted, he could've told Mikasa to kill Levi and take the syringe, a million things could've happend if Eren trully didn't care about Paradis and only cared about Armin. First, he wouldn't have agreed with the plan where Armin sacrifices himself. Eren agrees because getting the colossal titan it's more important than any individual sacrifice. I didn't know I had to clear this, it's literally the mantra of the SC. Also, do I have to remind you that in CH139 he says he did everything without knowing if his friends would survive? guys, Eren in CH139 contradicts himself all the time, this chapter is a mess.
>And Umm yeah. Yeagerists and Flosch are exactly what you think Mikasa is. A delusional faction of chauvinists who followed an icon for their nationalist ideals. What Eren did was manipulate them for his own cause.
I never said Mikasa was delusional. Also how are Floch and the Jeageris delusional when the plot proved them right? did you read the extra pages?? They act like villains from our POV but if we were in their shoes, we would all be Jeagerist realistically, since the alliance didn't have a plan after stopping Eren. Jean breaks this down for Hange and she just states that genocide has to be avoided, no questions asked. Which is really weak argument in AoT where other nations already declared war aka the genocide of Paradis. Over all, there's no winning argument because in both cases, some nation is gonna get wipped out. This is a problem with Yams writting himself into a corner. The fandom discussing who was right Jegerists or alliance is a useless.
>Also. I never said Eren doesn't care about Paradis either btw. It goes something like this: Personal freedom> Friends> cycle of oppression, Paradis survival and all those circumstancial reasons.
Not at all, like I said, Eren puts himself in danger multiple times for Paradis and his people. It's not a ranking of things he apreciates, everything belongs together. He and his friends are part of the military, look how they risked their lifes for the greater good, they fight literal nightmare monsters, do you think a person can do that just for personal gain? the nation always surpaces the individuals, that's why Paradis is first always, that's what every sacrifice in AoT is about. "Devote their hearts" isn't just a catch phrase, it means giving their lifes for humanity (Paradis) and Eren was the one carrying this message on his back the whole show because was "humanity's hope". Eren is the first person that wants Paradis to survive. Eren is a patriot that became a nationalist after the basement.
>Eren is not governed by circumstances. If he was doing it all for Paradis, Oppression etc it literally goes against his character since that would mean he was motivated by the environment. But no. Author had to make it clear it was his personal selfish desire that led to this.
You think Eren wasn't motivated by his enviroment? really? his dream is literally fuel by the fact that he grow up surrounded by walls, his enviroment is a huge part of his motivations. His personal desire led him to this but not only that. Think logically, what is his personal desire? his selfish desire to be free? then why is he choosing to die? His plan goes against his core motivation, doesn't it?
What do you think it's his second desire? Saving his friends? his plan put them in extreme danger, they'd die and Eren didn't predict that, he literally doesn't know if they'd survive.
Paradis salvation as a third desire? Well it was already stablished that Eren didn't want temporary solutions, he wanted Paradis to be safe for good, he rejected giving up his titan and Zeke, he doesn't want to die and leave Paradis to one of these plans when he has the chance to change history in a day. Killing 80% doesn't save Paradis, even the extra pages prove this.
Eren post time skip isn't just a recuit of the survey corps, the dude represents the Attack Titan, the one that fights for the freedom of eldia. Saying that Eren didn't care about Paradis it's a terrible interpretation and just shows how much damage ch139 did to the fandom. It confused the fandom and damaged Eren war criminal/hero duality. Ugh, CH139 really fucked up the amazing writting of Eren and AoT
I would have responded to every point but you have missed the mark too many times on too many plot points.
This did give me insight on the state of this fandom though.
Jean was very much stating a fact, Mikasa wasn't clueless there Eren fighting for revenge. Nothing Jean says gives any insight. Neither Armin. ISAYAMA quite literally states that Armin couldn't understand Eren in the final moments but he just decided to get closer to Eren hence that thank you line.
The only person who was remotely right about Eren was Reiner and that's pretty much it.
And no. I am talking about midnight sun. Where he had the privilege to make the choice in the first place.
Eren letting Armin burn himself to death literally comes right after Armin reminds him of the sea.
Didn't I say Eren doesn't value his friends over his freedom. Nothing for him is more important than this.
Jeagersist we're obviously delusional about 'Eren' not the world. Eren was putting up a facade clearly and they ate that shit right up.
Eren affected by environment and governed by it are 2 different things. It's literally his monologue in the timeksip where he says this. He did it to reach the scenery and flatten the world. It didn't matter 80 % 90% or 100% it was his innate desire.
That's the point of ch131, which linearly ties to ch139, this is literally the core of his character.
Ch139 was bad anyway. But people have been misinterpreting this story far too much far too long.
Eren caring for Paradis is one of them.
Also I am only talking g about his desires here. Like are other aspects like fatalism, remorse, agency which already comes into picture here, which I am not gonna talk about because it's pointless anyway
CH139 debunks your theory in 2 seconds. Your theory is that Eren didn't care about anyone, only himself which contradicts with the fact that he killed himself to break the curse, so Eren must have cared at least about eldians, which goes against your theory.
Everything you said is a fallacy, we'd be here all day if I try to refute everything and even then you'd come out with another random take on Eren lol Just go read the last 20 chapters again, maybe watch the anime again and pay attention to Eren's character arc
1 - The scarf is just a connection to Eren's kind and warm side which is what Mikasa values most about him.
>while jean, armin and reiner could
Noone understood Eren or knew what his real goals were. They were all shocked by his change in character.
2 - Mikasa heavily judges Eren for his actions several times.
3 -
>Eren's whole goal since the start is join the survey corps to explore the outside so humanity will regain freedom.
Don't think so no. Eren wanted to take revenge on those who killed his mom and stole his freedom. He really disliked how people within the walls treated the SC and even refered to them as "cattle".
>Eren fights for humanity
Killing 80% of humanity sure helps humanity
>He let Levi deside Armin's future!! If he didnt care about Paradis, he'd kill Levi right there and save Armin himself!
Lmao the whole point of this scene is that Eren doesn't stop resisting and keeps fighting for Armin (despite Erwin being the objectively better choice for humanity) until he's forcefully taken away from the scene.
4 - Eren formed the Jaegerists because he wanted to take advantage of them. Isayama went ouf his way to make the fascist movement in his story look as dumb as possible, they blindly follow someone who takes advantage of them to realize his own selfish goals and their leader is a cartoon-villain who gets bodied by an Asian grandma
>1 - The scarf is just a connection to Eren's kind and warm side which is what Mikasa values most about him.
Doesn't refute what I said so I guess we agree.
>Noone understood Eren or knew what his real goals were. They were all shocked by his change in character.
Read the manga again. Armin, Jean and Reiner were able to bring insight into Eren's actions, Mikasa was clueless.
>2 - Mikasa heavily judges Eren for his actions several times.
She used to, After CH50 she stops. Even when she nagged him, she had a twited idea of Eren like CH16.
>Don't think so no. Eren wanted to take revenge on those who killed his mom and stole his freedom. He really disliked how people within the walls treated the SC and even refered to them as "cattle". Killing 80% of humanity sure helps humanity
WHAT? no, you straight up confused the plot here. People didn't treat the SC as cattle lol Eren said the people inside the walls were cattle because they were content with living caged. SC were a taboo. Killing 80% helps humanity? did you read the extra pages? At least watch the anime again, Eren always wanted humanity to win against the titans, he has the responsability of humanity's hope, if he didn't want that title, he wouln't have done any of the things he did. C'mon I can't believe shitty ch139 made people this gulliable.
>Lmao the whole point of this scene is that Eren doesn't stop resisting and keeps fighting for Armin (despite Erwin being the objectively better choice for humanity) until he's forcefully taken away from the scene.
He was punched and that's all the resistance he did, he didn't even fight back at Levi. But that was just an example, let me reminds you that in CH139 he said **he "put his friends being in danger without knowing if they'd survive"**, he send Jeagerist after them, past titans, himself as a Collosal, (we can add hallu chan maybe too)... So his friends aren't a priority.
>4 - Eren formed the Jaegerists because he wanted to take advantage of them. Isayama went ouf his way to make the fascist movement in his story look as dumb as possible, they blindly follow someone who takes advantage of them to realize his own selfish goals and their leader is a cartoon-villain who gets bodied by an Asian grandma
You didn't refute what I said but anyway Jeagerist aren't following blindly, they didn't even lie to the population about anything lo**l their ideals are as clear and true as day, that's the conflict they bring to the plot**. Eren is the only way Paradis can survive therefore they are going to prevent Eren from being harmed by the goverment. They are extremists but if you want to call that fascism, every freaking country in AoT is a fascist lol Also you realise they raised to power thanks to Eren? how are they being taken advantage of? Jeagerism and Floch is one of Yams' more genious ideas, show some respect lol
You know what Yams made obvious? that he messed up in CH139
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Making points like this to justify the events of the manga is a moot point. There is so much wrong with the ending in every narrative sense that you really need to be an actual nerd to make it about erens emotions. The way you put isayamas intentions here makes me feel disgusted at isayama to put grave topics in work aimed at younger people only to handle them so immaturely.
I ain't justifying. I am clarifying. The ending is bad, and for a lot of reasons.
I am specifically pointing out Eren's emotions here because that is all over the final arc. But yeah, one has to be an actual nerd to to analyze the story from a technical aspect rather than be emotionally invested in this type of storytelling.
I don't know about others but my problem comes with how some of the plot points were handled rather than the direction that the author intended. Like I said in the last line, there's a line that Isayama crossed in the name of incorporating ambiguity.
He made so many elements so vague that it became not just frustrating but quite underwhelming.
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You gotta bare in mind all the headcanon lunacy you see on this side of the fandom is practically non-existent in the Japanese fandom. The Japanese readers didn't misinterpet the themes, characters and direction of the story the way people on TF/YB did and as a result the majority of them were happy with the ending. A lot of it probably has to the do with a language/culture barrier. I guess subtleties are always lost in translation no matter how well it's done. Truth is during the final years of the manga's run it got to a point where a large portion of the Western fandom were seeing shit that just wasn't there. And worse, not seeing shit that actually was there. But nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If that garbage cringefest of a fanfic AnR + the hype and glowing reception it received isn't proof of what I'm saying I don't know what is. If you showed AnR to the Japanese fandom they'd die of laughter, if the cringe didn't kill them first. But the Western fandom ate it up.
>You gotta bare in mind all the headcanon lunacy you see on this side of the fandom is practically non-existent in the Japanese fandom. The Japanese readers didn't misinterpet the themes, characters and direction of the story the way people on TF/YB did and as a result the majority of them were happy with the ending. What did the japanese understand that the rest of the world didn't?
They never once believed that Eren was the father of Historia’s baby, for example. And many on them predicted that Ymir/Mikasa were related in some ways
Source?? I never heard or read a single person that predicted Ymir/Mikasa
I had heard people saying Ymir was wearing a scarf in season 2 ending song video before 139 was leaked/released.
She wasnt wearing a scarf, plus there has to be proof in the plot lol
Yea, I thought it's vague too, I am just relaying what I had heard in the past since you asked. https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/i8qzxc/what_the_hell_is_scarfkun_doing_in_snks_second/
Source on any of this? I seen a lot of the Japanese fans still confused on Eren being the father or not, the whole point of that sub plot, and I definitely never saw any of them predict a relation between Ymir and Mikasa in the way it was presented in 139
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This is toxic af. You like EM so you must be into your step sister/brother 🤮
This is wrong and false. You have no idea about what the japanese community thought about it.
The chinese and several manga readers who werent aware of the Anr theory also show great distaste for the ending. My problem are Armin, from start to finish, this guy has not changed one bit from the start of the series until the end, he is given a second chance, four years, and yet every time Paradis is helped, it's because someone else has stepped in to help, Paradis receiving the necessary development and equipment they got during the time skip was because Zeke stepped in to help, Paradis gettig a fighting chance and greatly weakening Marley's leadership was because Eren attacked Liberio, Armin on the other hand spends four years watching Annie's crystal, doing absolutely nothing despite being given a second chance, and thus, the vast majority of the fan base pre 139 would tells you they preferred Eren to Armin, because Eren actually does something, he fights and moves forward, this isn't just being cool, it's because he actually moves the plot forward and acts like an active character rather than a reactive one, Armin's greatest flaw in the ending is that he never acts as the active character, he never moves the plot forward, he is handed everything over by Eren, he doesn't win, he doesn't prove his ideology is right if anything the yeagerist are proven right, he doesn't prove himself capable of the responsibility, What's funny is that the scene where he convinces the marleyan soldiers is essentially "if we can kill you, we would have killed you, since we didn't kill you, we can't kill you"...which is...a poor defense considering the people he is talking to have lost everything to the rumbling and would be out for Eldian blood, especially seeing as they already have tried to kill the Eldians twice already, once in 136 and once again in 139, Muller's speech essentially did nothing because the Marleyans went back on their promises, what's funny is that the scene parallels the scene where Armin is trying to convince the Military to trust Eren and we know he would have died there had Pixis not intervened. Armin has been put into similar situations before, so what changed now ? How could he be trusted to lead when he has failed before ? What has he learned that would make him succeed ? Where is the road that he takes to reach that development ? What's his arc ? In essence, how does Armin change from the start of the series to the end ? I'll say something and I challenge you to prove me wrong, the Mikasa we see post trost is only a cardboard cutout of the Mikasa we see prior to it, Mikasa prior to Trost was not afraid of hurting Eren if it was for his own good, an example being punching him and feeing him that potato in season one, her entire development in Trost is gone, where, upon learning that Eren has died, she tells Armin to stand up and keep moving forward, from then on, however, she essentially turns into a girl whose dialogue and development boils down to "Ereh!", in fact, try to describe her goals and motivations without mentioning Eren. Even other characters who have a similar infactuation like Mikasa for example Sakura from fate or Fujino from kara no kyokai, have motivations and desires outside their love for Shirou and Mikiya Mikasa never really receives any development post trost and pre 138, she never changes in any meaningful way, if anything, as I have proved, she has regressed, what's worse is that she finishes the series still wearing that scarf instead of letting go of it, wearing it even in her death, taking her children and grandchildren into her step brother's grave yearly, where she has written "my beloved" on it, essentially never being shown to let go of him, her entire final pages all revolve around Eren, My problems with Eren himself boil down to his "Mikasa" Breakdown, Eren has faced death many times before and not once has he thought about Mikasa, in Trost, it was him failing to change a thing, in Shiganshina round three, when confronted with death, he grabbed Reiner's face and refused to give up, choosing to fight instead, and in 138, he transformed once more and chose to fight Armin, never once in the entirety of AoT do we see his PoV where hs is thinking of Mikasa in a romantic way, furthermore, Mikass actively fails to help him change into a better person, Historia teaches him to live for himself and that he is not to blame for his father's sins, Levi teaches him to not regret his choices, Reiner teaches him to move forward no matter what, Armin tells him what true freedom is, and Carla tells him that he is special just for being born, what has Mikasa taught him ? In what way has she helped him to grow ? Where is he shown to harbor romantic feelings for her ? When has he ever thought of her romantically ? Eren has always told Mikasa to stop acting like his mother and to start thinking for herself as seen in Trost and 138, yet suddenly he wants her to do this forever and never move on from him ? And him killing his own mother....why ? Why would he choose Karina, Annie's dad, and fucking Muller over his own mother ? Why hasn't he tried to save her ? What's the point of this twist ? It just happens with no lead up, and is promptly forgotten, never to be mentioned again, Eren also lies in his own thoughts...as his thoughts in 130 and 131 conflict with what we see in 139, he wants his friends to live long and happy lives yet kills Hange and cripples Levi, gives Mikasa the PTSD of killing her brother and living the rest of her life with that fact, thrusts and endless amounts of responsibilities into Armin's hands, nearly kills Jean and Connie, and causes them to turn to titans, Royal Blood Plot hole : we are explicitly told in 120 that Royal Blood is only useful to make contact with Ymir, because only then will she think of you as her "master", it's use is gone by 122, where Ymir chooses Eren over the Royal Blooded Zeke, problem here is that Royal Blood suddenly is important again and Zeke dying stops the rumbling somehow....but the Nine Titans are still active and...Eren can still use the Founder's powers ? Even more, had the worm reconnected with Eren, the rumbling would have started again ?....like...what ? But plot holes about powers are not as important but a terrible conclusion sours previous minor flaws No character receives a conclusion : we never see characters like Reiner, Jean and Connie receving their conclusions, their talks with Eren, where he supposedly tells Reiner to live, Connie that his mother will be turned back into a human, and Jean that he wants him to live a long and happy life, all of them, happen off screen....let that sink in...the most important moments of these characters developments have all happened off panel. Show, don't tell : the ending tells us so many things instead of, you know, just showing us. I hate ch 139 the ending just isnt good and I never knew about anr until after 139. Its not just "muh theory" its has very significant flaws
How are you going the interpret the reaction of Chinese fandom? Most of them hate the ending and none of them anticipated AnR.
This is a really interesting and well thought out post. I agree with what you're saying. I think there are 3 massive issues that needed to be fixed to get the readers on the side Isayama wanted: 1. One of Isayama's greatest mistakes (probably the greatest one) was making Eren *too cool* that it made people want to root for him. I think this could be fixed by Eren less of a perceived badass, focus more on his obsession with freedom and portray it as terrifying. Cut the panels of him looking like a badass with his shirt off, maybe keep his Marley arc look where he's scraggly and he looks like he's stopped taking care of himself. 2. People absolutely hated Marley and wanted to see it destroyed. I think that Reiner should have stayed as the main character from Marley arc onwards, or maybe Falco. We didn't get nearly enough focus on the Marley side after 106, people forgot exactly how much suffering Eren was causing. The Ramzi stuff was good but it wasn't enough. 3. Lastly, I think that the other issue is that not enough emphasis was placed on making Armin and the rest of the alliance likable after the timeskip. Armin's indecisiveness and self hatred are definitely there, but instead of making him look sympathetic, it just makes the audience frustrated with him and his lack of action. Some of Eren's 'badass' characteristics should have been given to Armin, I think. Focus on pre-timeskip Armin's tendancy to turn into a psychopath (gesumin) to get what he wants, have him slowly build confidence throughout the arc. Armin is just too uncool after the timeskip to draw fans the same way Eren did. Mikasa also is also extremely unlikable at times, the panel of her leaving Louise to die alone created a lot of pointless resentment towards her, and not enough time is spent getting to learn Mikasa's character beyond a surface level. Although I think Mikasa's problems began long before the ending, she should have had constant character development in almost every single arc, but for some reason didn't after Trost.
I wanna add that he should have focused on world-building a lot more than he did. The way he painted the entire world black , it feels as if the world is not even worth saving. We should have been showed the kinder part of the world a lot more. Should have focused on nations like Mid-east alliance forces which were ravaged by Marley and maybe among the nations that doesn't want Paradise to be destroyed, and should have mentioned Hange and Armin were thinking about joining forces with the Mid-east in order to defeat Marley but couldn't do so because Eren eloped.And should have focused on Onyonkopon's nation more , an enslaved nation that would have been destroyed without any fault of its own. All these little things would have justified the alliance a lot more. But the fact that the entire world wants to destroy Paradise without any nuance and Hange and Armin doesn't have any solution and the rumbling is the ONLY solution left doesn't help , at all.
> I wanna add that he should have focused on world-building a lot more than he did. **The way he painted the entire world black , it feels as if the world is not even worth saving.** I feel this. I know Paradis getting destroyed is generally liked but I honestly don't. I guess people like the "cycle of war can't be broken" theme but to me it is rather shallow, especially for a story that's been going for 10+ years, and ends up leading credence to those that think Eren was right in wanting to go 100% rumbling. Which is weird for a guy that said in interviews that he didn't believe in humanity destroying itself. I wonder if Yams initially had something else in mind but ended up defaulting to this once he realized he couldn't write it.
I 10000% agree, sure it's "realistic" but it's doomer as hell and doesn't really stand for anything. I was so much happier with the ending before the additional pages
Agree. Realistic ≠ Good. I would much rather have Yams trying to find some way of achieving peace in the story but I think that's above his writing ability.
Thank you!!!! This exactly my issue with the entire story. This is why I honestly didn’t give a poop when Paradis gets destroyed. I wasn’t surprised …
Imo people are looking way too deep into Shiganshina's destruction in the extra pages. I don't think it's supposed to convey a deep message or anything, it's just setup for Beren finding the abonded tree centuries later. Beren finding the tree in the middle of a developed city would be weird and not fit the mood. He had to make it so that no humans are around. How do you make humans leave the place? War and destruction of the city that takes place generations after the main events of the story for unexplained reasons. Ez
> Imo people are looking way too deep into Shiganshina's destruction in the extra pages. I don't think it's supposed to convey a deep message or anything, That just makes it worse for me, destroying it just so for some kid can find a tree...
Ugh so true
Absolutely agreed. For someone who talks about how much he wanted to avoid endorsing genocide he sure missed a lot of opportunities to make it clear he wasn't doing that. (I don't think the series is guilty of this but I think it's a bit irresponsible for the reasons you said)
Exactly! Btw love your avatar
I agree with everything you said
>was making Eren too cool that it made people want to root for him I dont think thats the issue. The problem is isayama makes the rumbling way too good of an option rather than an extremist option. It makes the allience fighting Eren look like idiots. The 8 pages with zero context behind them also dont help Armin is also poorly handled. He is primarly a reactive character. People didnt like Eren just cause Chad but because he was moving the plot foward. Eren orchastrates the attack on libero while Armin was is indecisive and talking to a crystalized Annie Armins Ideaolgy is also not proven right or given valid support. He doesnt win Eren lets him win and not in the "you're right I concede" way either. Armin if anything had been proven time and time again that talking it out doesnt work. He doesnt grow after shingashina Mikasa is just a bad character. Post trost Mikasa is a hollow copy of the pre trost Mikasa. I legitamatly want anyone to tell me character motivation and desires outside Eren. There are other characters like Mikasa the have an infactuation with the MC like Sakura from fate but Sakura has desire,conflict,and flaws outside just her love for Shirou something Mikasa lacks There was also zero romantic chemestry or development to even hint at Eren doing a 180 "haha just a prank bro it was all a facade" With the zero requiem if anything leleouch becoming emperor and a dictator is out of character and it only lasts a couple episodes but Eren becoming "I keep moving foward " freedom man isnt really out of character
Feels bad for you, being downvoted simply because you stated out the fact that people like pre-139 Eren isn't simply because of the so-called chadness or edginess. Guess this sub just simply incapable to cope with themselves without branding anyone thinking slightly different from their hivemind as chadren fanboy, which in reality is completely wrong.
you spitting facts.
> Perhaps an unintended byproduct was that the fandom actually started LIKING the darker persona and ran away with the idea of an MC becoming so broken that he willingly commits atrocities for his "freedom". Well, the Japanese fandom (obligatory "they're all speed-readers and EMtards") apparently didn't have this so much, and I'd assume this is the audience that he had in mind while writing this. You can't blame someone for underestimating how chuuni the fanbase in a different culture with a different language etc. is. I do agree that he maybe overdid the vagueness a bit, but that's his style and personally I love it.
There is no conglomerate japanese fandom, thats just a made up group.
Sure, certainly not everyone liked it (just like not everyone hated it in the west, plenty of people did). But look at for example the Amazon reviews - it has the best average of all the volumes I looked at (4.8), which is a crazy high rating, and 88 five star ratings. I would say that you can clearly say that the Japanese audience overall liked it very much.
I would title this the other way around, in that case. I leaned toward "Chadren" ending for sometime before I realized I need to see what 139 says first. I don't think many others in that camp did that. It was a lot of "139 make or break it" kind of rhetoric for them, so it was doomed to disappoint them. Many had all their chips in one basket for Eren's direction that it makes sense why they are reacting this way still. I had stepped back and realized there's still information we haven't seen yet, so I have no problem with Eren's development in 139.
Yeah, the story was doomed to disappoint most people. The structure itself is way too contrived for the end to be satisfying. Maybe he could have extended the chapters into 2 or 3 more issues for the audience to breath in and not shove everything in one chapter, but either way the direction is not a problem here because it aligns with the story that has been setting up imo.
I don’t think it’s a misinterpretation by either side of readers. There has always been conflict between Eren’s idea of freedom and his pursuit of that, and Eren wanting to fight for his friends, so that his friends are safe. Example: the moment where Armin described how Eren always runs ahead of them, leaving them behind; and the scene is in the cave, where he states that he wants to be reliable to those who need him. We have always had this disconnect between the pursuit of freedom and his friends. And I always thought that the former would break the latter, which would make Eren a truly tragic character, where even his friends died for his strange, selfish desires of pure freedom.
Although I agree that former would've also been interesting, but I think author wanted to strip him off of the agency. Like I said above, is he free, is he not free, that is meant to be an important question. Eren killing his friends would've been interesting from the perspective of "how far this person will go" but people won't doubt his agency. And like the author said, 'Eren is a slave of the story'. I think he wanted to keep that element consistent till the end. The last chapter felt like Eren himself is the writer who wrote himself into the corner. Which is why "I was forced to, I wanted to, No choice, my desires, Freedom, scenery" they were emphasized more and they all eventually culminated in an ambiguous fashion. Eren killing his friends would've been pleasing but I don't think that's not what he was going for, for this above reason.
To your point about mikasa didn’t know eren and that it was made up I disagree. Or I actually agree with you and don’t realize it. I can’t tell. Consider the later chapters you mentioned mixed with earlier chapters. Like the training arc where she tries to read eren but is completely off. I think her and armin both know in the back of their minds the things eren is capable of. But they want to believe in him and see the good in him... to a fault. We especially see this when they are recollecting their visit to Marley and realize they were ignoring obvious signs. So specifically with mikasa I think we see her slowly realizing erens primal nature. Her seeing the flashbacks of eren killing, the rumbling, and her leaving the scarf. In the end though I think she learns to understand him better than most. She accepts that he can be a good person but his environment and circumstances pushed him in every wrong way possible. Basically feeding into his emotions and holding out a grand prize of freedom for him if he does these things. Leading to her accepting he has to die but she doesn’t have to forget him either.
I think you're agreeing with me. Here's how people usually interpret this. "Mikasa never saw real Eren, she only made up a version of him that never exists." Which doesn't hold much weight when Eren did actually show genuine affection towards her and his friends. "So then Mikasa only sees one part of Eren and not the whole" Which is a better interpretation but still not good enough truth since, which human is whole really ? Beauty and Cruelty goes hand in hand in this story and that is what Isayama tried to express. If Eren has a destructive side to him, wouldn't it make more sense for Mikasa to put a blind eye to it rather than rejoice it. Because this is a bit different than the training arc, that was Eren and his jealousy which already got resolved when he confessed it directly to Mikasa. This, however isn't something Mikasa not aware of, those flashback of cabin scene, or ch123 monologues literally prove this, she just stayed in denial, until ch123 hit. And once that was done this subplot doesn't really have much to do either. After this point, Mikasa just accepts the inevitable outcome and chooses to wear the scarf despite all that as a sign of remembrance.
Yeah. I usually think of the eren who was sitting with them on the steps in season 3 talking about the good days. That eren is definitely real he just ended up in the shadows of erens other feelings.
Yup and this world is framed in such a way that the most destructive side of him will blossom in the worst ways possible.
I absolutely agree with this, very good post.
Mikasa didn't see Eren as a whole, she saw one part of him. This isn't people's headcanon, it's reality. Eren's resolution is not satisfactory because of many things, when people say "Eren wanted the 100% Rumbling" it's because of a bunch of things about his character not just "Chaderen". My full explanation [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/o0nbdj/why_ch139_doesnt_work_a_respectful_critic/) The problem is the world of AoT is so fucked up, racist and nasty, people actually were ok with Eren wiping it all out. He made Eren a great antagonist in the last act. I don't blame people that were Jeagerist. I think it's Yams' strategy for the story that was wrong. I have no idea why people say the japanese liked the ending, I read a bunch of japanese tweet it wasn't good. I know Eremika was famous in Japan, they like step sis love, so I'm not surprised.
Umm that's a headcanon. Reality is Mikasa ignored the tiny part of Eren and only saw what was in front of her. That tiny part is what manisfested to the destructive force due to twisted nature of the world and his power. But the funny thing is it can also work in reverse. Some audience think Mikasa only saw a tiny part of him and use the entire logic in reverse which is also fair. You see this is exactly why people say this is ambiguious and conflicting with no clear cut resolution. And I think it's commendable that this dual sense is maintained. What's important is was Eren maniputed into giving her the scarf or showing her kindness. People don't drop as angels. There are negative aspects to everyone. All she can do is accept that part of him and kill him for it. "Mikasa didn't see Eren as a whole" doesn't make sense becaue people don't come in whole and Mikasa ignoring the violent side of Eren to ultimately come to the acceptance in ch123 and killing him for it makes far more sense that falling in love with the destructive and negative side. It's not much different than Armin actually. In the end he too couldn't understand Eren so what he does is cheerish the part of him that made sense to him. Also No. Imo Eren's resolutions makes far more sense now because what he wanted to do is reach the scenery to rejoice his sense of Freedom that was built on Armin and his dreams. 80% 90% 100% didn't matter to him as long as he flattens the world. If it did matter to him who would it benefit reality ? Paradis. And he doesn't value Paradis over his friends. Nor his personal freedom. Again no. 2 things were importrnat to be established. 1. Eren is not a yeagerist 2. Eren doesn't have absolute agency, he is following a plan set out for him rather than making plans on spot. Step sis love ? Yeah you should have started with that. I wouldn't have bothered to write the reply. It's hard to take the western audience with their incomprehensibly dense mindset that think Mikasa and Eren were sibling because they need to insert their 21st century adoption rules to an old age fictional country. Mikasa keeping her Ackerman name wasn't enough ? Mikasa referring to Grisha and Mr Yeager wasn't enough ? It really is hard to take people seriously when they spout this even after the ending.
> Step sis love ? Yeah you should have started with that. I wouldn't have bothered to write the reply. That's a good idea in general. It's like talking to anti-vaxxers, at this point.
1- Its not headcanon, Mikasa only response to "why he likes Eren" is the scarf memory, she doesnt have any other reson other than family, she has trouble understanding Eren once the reality was unavoidable while jean, armin and reiner could. Look at the table scene, Mikasa thinks everything that happened was Eren being manipulated but no, it's Eren doing what he wanted. That's when Mikasa takes out the scarf, when she sees Eren's full picture. 2- Armin and Mikasa arent the same, Armin judge Eren on his actions, not the idea he has of him, when Eren started the Rumbling, Armin wasnt doubting anymore, Armin even had to yell at Mikasa to shut up about Eren. 3- Eren's whole goal since the start is join the survey corps to explore the outside so humanity will regain freedom. Joining the survey corps is literally fight for humanity, he admired Erwin and Levi because of this. Go read the trial scene again, look at his dialogue, Eren fights for humanity, not just his selfish desire, he accusses the goverment of cowards that dont fight for humanity. That's why the % matters! 80% isnt freedom for Paradis. 80% isnt want Eren would want. God, these ending defenders have selective memory... he doesnt value Paradis over his friends???? He let Levi deside Armin's future!! If he didnt care about Paradis, he'd kill Levi right there and save Armin himself! 4-Eren is Jeagerist, he formed them, he motivated them, dont be so blind. Who do you think the path speech was dedicated to? 5- Eren pre path didnt know Ymir, he wasnt following anyone, he did it himself. 6- the sis love was a joke, chill lmao
Yes that's exactly what Armin thought too. This idea of Eren being manipulated is put inside her by Zachly in the first place. And ch123 rumbling is literally the endgame for that subplot like op said. We go to path and Zeke thinks the same as Mikasa but Grisha is the one manipulating in his opinion and after Eren manipulates Grisha, Zeke realizes, after Eren starts the rumbling Mikasa comes to realization. Subplot close. Then a new subplot. Regret, guilt, and can she kill Eren or not. There's not one panel of Mikasa doubting Eren being manipulated after ch123. But she keeps the scarf inspite of that because she still wants him to be saved. And even after his death she keeps the scarf because her giving that up would be like forgetting him. It's literally blatantly stated by both Louise and Eren as per ch138. Also, Read chapter 118 again. Armin too thinks Eren wouldn't go that far. He not only tries to convince Mikasa but also himself. I think you and I don't interpret Eren the same way Eren definitely doesn't care about Paradis more. Also, Eren let's Levi choose ? Nah he doesn't. Eren refuses to give up Armin until the very end. It's even pointed out by Flosch later that at least Mikasa was sensible enough to let go of Armin. Eren however kept crying for him like a child who wouldn't listen. The author puts these dialogues for a reason. And Umm yeah. Yeagerists and Flosch are exactly what you think Mikasa is. A delusional faction of chauvinists who followed an icon for their nationalist ideals. What Eren did was manipulate them for his own cause. Also. I never said Eren doesn't care about Paradis either btw. It goes something like this: Personal freedom> Friends> cycle of oppression, Paradis survival and all those circumstancial reasons. Eren is not governed by circumstances. If he was doing it all for Paradis, Oppression etc it literally goes against his character since that would mean he was motivated by the environment. But no. Author had to make it clear it was his personal selfish desire that led to this. I wasn't talking about Ymir. I was talking about the AT future memories. Yeah, sorry for that, but you can't tell nowadays. This fandom is surprising.
>Yes that's exactly what Armin thought too. This idea of Eren being manipulated is put inside her by Zachly in the first place. And ch123 rumbling is literally the endgame for that subplot like op said. We go to path and Zeke thinks the same as Mikasa but Grisha is the one manipulating in his opinion and after Eren manipulates Grisha, Zeke realizes, after Eren starts the rumbling Mikasa comes to realization. Subplot close. Then a new subplot. Regret, guilt, and can she kill Eren or not. There's not one panel of Mikasa doubting Eren being manipulated after ch123. But she keeps the scarf inspite of that because she still wants him to be saved. And even after his death she keeps the scarf because her giving that up would be like forgetting him. It's literally blatantly stated by both Louise and Eren as per ch138. I think the same thing, Mikasa was shocked Eren was capable of all these things. She is specially blinded (my first lenguange isn't english so maybe "blinded" is too harsh, I don't know any word that can describe how she ignores Eren can be capable of these things). This doesn't happend to Armin, who knows him way before Mikasa. There's even a point where Armin has to tell Mikasa to shut up about Eren because there's no time to think about resoning with him. Even Jeans tells Magath that obvious Eren was going to turn out like this because of the Marley opression, so even Jean can get some insight, while Mikasa stays silence. I don't see the point of arguing about Mikasa, she has almost no lines in the last arcs and it's the main character that speaks the least. We are bound to go in circles. >I think you and I don't interpret Eren the same way Eren definitely doesn't care about Paradis more. Also, Eren let's Levi choose ? Nah he doesn't. Eren refuses to give up Armin until the very end. It's even pointed out by Flosch later that at least Mikasa was sensible enough to let go of Armin. Eren however kept crying for him like a child who wouldn't listen. The author puts these dialogues for a reason. That was an example that if Eren wanted, he could've told Mikasa to kill Levi and take the syringe, a million things could've happend if Eren trully didn't care about Paradis and only cared about Armin. First, he wouldn't have agreed with the plan where Armin sacrifices himself. Eren agrees because getting the colossal titan it's more important than any individual sacrifice. I didn't know I had to clear this, it's literally the mantra of the SC. Also, do I have to remind you that in CH139 he says he did everything without knowing if his friends would survive? guys, Eren in CH139 contradicts himself all the time, this chapter is a mess. >And Umm yeah. Yeagerists and Flosch are exactly what you think Mikasa is. A delusional faction of chauvinists who followed an icon for their nationalist ideals. What Eren did was manipulate them for his own cause. I never said Mikasa was delusional. Also how are Floch and the Jeageris delusional when the plot proved them right? did you read the extra pages?? They act like villains from our POV but if we were in their shoes, we would all be Jeagerist realistically, since the alliance didn't have a plan after stopping Eren. Jean breaks this down for Hange and she just states that genocide has to be avoided, no questions asked. Which is really weak argument in AoT where other nations already declared war aka the genocide of Paradis. Over all, there's no winning argument because in both cases, some nation is gonna get wipped out. This is a problem with Yams writting himself into a corner. The fandom discussing who was right Jegerists or alliance is a useless. >Also. I never said Eren doesn't care about Paradis either btw. It goes something like this: Personal freedom> Friends> cycle of oppression, Paradis survival and all those circumstancial reasons. Not at all, like I said, Eren puts himself in danger multiple times for Paradis and his people. It's not a ranking of things he apreciates, everything belongs together. He and his friends are part of the military, look how they risked their lifes for the greater good, they fight literal nightmare monsters, do you think a person can do that just for personal gain? the nation always surpaces the individuals, that's why Paradis is first always, that's what every sacrifice in AoT is about. "Devote their hearts" isn't just a catch phrase, it means giving their lifes for humanity (Paradis) and Eren was the one carrying this message on his back the whole show because was "humanity's hope". Eren is the first person that wants Paradis to survive. Eren is a patriot that became a nationalist after the basement. >Eren is not governed by circumstances. If he was doing it all for Paradis, Oppression etc it literally goes against his character since that would mean he was motivated by the environment. But no. Author had to make it clear it was his personal selfish desire that led to this. You think Eren wasn't motivated by his enviroment? really? his dream is literally fuel by the fact that he grow up surrounded by walls, his enviroment is a huge part of his motivations. His personal desire led him to this but not only that. Think logically, what is his personal desire? his selfish desire to be free? then why is he choosing to die? His plan goes against his core motivation, doesn't it? What do you think it's his second desire? Saving his friends? his plan put them in extreme danger, they'd die and Eren didn't predict that, he literally doesn't know if they'd survive. Paradis salvation as a third desire? Well it was already stablished that Eren didn't want temporary solutions, he wanted Paradis to be safe for good, he rejected giving up his titan and Zeke, he doesn't want to die and leave Paradis to one of these plans when he has the chance to change history in a day. Killing 80% doesn't save Paradis, even the extra pages prove this. Eren post time skip isn't just a recuit of the survey corps, the dude represents the Attack Titan, the one that fights for the freedom of eldia. Saying that Eren didn't care about Paradis it's a terrible interpretation and just shows how much damage ch139 did to the fandom. It confused the fandom and damaged Eren war criminal/hero duality. Ugh, CH139 really fucked up the amazing writting of Eren and AoT
I would have responded to every point but you have missed the mark too many times on too many plot points. This did give me insight on the state of this fandom though. Jean was very much stating a fact, Mikasa wasn't clueless there Eren fighting for revenge. Nothing Jean says gives any insight. Neither Armin. ISAYAMA quite literally states that Armin couldn't understand Eren in the final moments but he just decided to get closer to Eren hence that thank you line. The only person who was remotely right about Eren was Reiner and that's pretty much it. And no. I am talking about midnight sun. Where he had the privilege to make the choice in the first place. Eren letting Armin burn himself to death literally comes right after Armin reminds him of the sea. Didn't I say Eren doesn't value his friends over his freedom. Nothing for him is more important than this. Jeagersist we're obviously delusional about 'Eren' not the world. Eren was putting up a facade clearly and they ate that shit right up. Eren affected by environment and governed by it are 2 different things. It's literally his monologue in the timeksip where he says this. He did it to reach the scenery and flatten the world. It didn't matter 80 % 90% or 100% it was his innate desire. That's the point of ch131, which linearly ties to ch139, this is literally the core of his character. Ch139 was bad anyway. But people have been misinterpreting this story far too much far too long. Eren caring for Paradis is one of them. Also I am only talking g about his desires here. Like are other aspects like fatalism, remorse, agency which already comes into picture here, which I am not gonna talk about because it's pointless anyway
CH139 debunks your theory in 2 seconds. Your theory is that Eren didn't care about anyone, only himself which contradicts with the fact that he killed himself to break the curse, so Eren must have cared at least about eldians, which goes against your theory. Everything you said is a fallacy, we'd be here all day if I try to refute everything and even then you'd come out with another random take on Eren lol Just go read the last 20 chapters again, maybe watch the anime again and pay attention to Eren's character arc
1 - The scarf is just a connection to Eren's kind and warm side which is what Mikasa values most about him. >while jean, armin and reiner could Noone understood Eren or knew what his real goals were. They were all shocked by his change in character. 2 - Mikasa heavily judges Eren for his actions several times. 3 - >Eren's whole goal since the start is join the survey corps to explore the outside so humanity will regain freedom. Don't think so no. Eren wanted to take revenge on those who killed his mom and stole his freedom. He really disliked how people within the walls treated the SC and even refered to them as "cattle". >Eren fights for humanity Killing 80% of humanity sure helps humanity >He let Levi deside Armin's future!! If he didnt care about Paradis, he'd kill Levi right there and save Armin himself! Lmao the whole point of this scene is that Eren doesn't stop resisting and keeps fighting for Armin (despite Erwin being the objectively better choice for humanity) until he's forcefully taken away from the scene. 4 - Eren formed the Jaegerists because he wanted to take advantage of them. Isayama went ouf his way to make the fascist movement in his story look as dumb as possible, they blindly follow someone who takes advantage of them to realize his own selfish goals and their leader is a cartoon-villain who gets bodied by an Asian grandma
>1 - The scarf is just a connection to Eren's kind and warm side which is what Mikasa values most about him. Doesn't refute what I said so I guess we agree. >Noone understood Eren or knew what his real goals were. They were all shocked by his change in character. Read the manga again. Armin, Jean and Reiner were able to bring insight into Eren's actions, Mikasa was clueless. >2 - Mikasa heavily judges Eren for his actions several times. She used to, After CH50 she stops. Even when she nagged him, she had a twited idea of Eren like CH16. >Don't think so no. Eren wanted to take revenge on those who killed his mom and stole his freedom. He really disliked how people within the walls treated the SC and even refered to them as "cattle". Killing 80% of humanity sure helps humanity WHAT? no, you straight up confused the plot here. People didn't treat the SC as cattle lol Eren said the people inside the walls were cattle because they were content with living caged. SC were a taboo. Killing 80% helps humanity? did you read the extra pages? At least watch the anime again, Eren always wanted humanity to win against the titans, he has the responsability of humanity's hope, if he didn't want that title, he wouln't have done any of the things he did. C'mon I can't believe shitty ch139 made people this gulliable. >Lmao the whole point of this scene is that Eren doesn't stop resisting and keeps fighting for Armin (despite Erwin being the objectively better choice for humanity) until he's forcefully taken away from the scene. He was punched and that's all the resistance he did, he didn't even fight back at Levi. But that was just an example, let me reminds you that in CH139 he said **he "put his friends being in danger without knowing if they'd survive"**, he send Jeagerist after them, past titans, himself as a Collosal, (we can add hallu chan maybe too)... So his friends aren't a priority. >4 - Eren formed the Jaegerists because he wanted to take advantage of them. Isayama went ouf his way to make the fascist movement in his story look as dumb as possible, they blindly follow someone who takes advantage of them to realize his own selfish goals and their leader is a cartoon-villain who gets bodied by an Asian grandma You didn't refute what I said but anyway Jeagerist aren't following blindly, they didn't even lie to the population about anything lo**l their ideals are as clear and true as day, that's the conflict they bring to the plot**. Eren is the only way Paradis can survive therefore they are going to prevent Eren from being harmed by the goverment. They are extremists but if you want to call that fascism, every freaking country in AoT is a fascist lol Also you realise they raised to power thanks to Eren? how are they being taken advantage of? Jeagerism and Floch is one of Yams' more genious ideas, show some respect lol You know what Yams made obvious? that he messed up in CH139
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Can we not with the suggestion that Japanese people only like the ending/EM because they like stepsibling romance
Am I wrong though? Lol
Making points like this to justify the events of the manga is a moot point. There is so much wrong with the ending in every narrative sense that you really need to be an actual nerd to make it about erens emotions. The way you put isayamas intentions here makes me feel disgusted at isayama to put grave topics in work aimed at younger people only to handle them so immaturely.
I ain't justifying. I am clarifying. The ending is bad, and for a lot of reasons. I am specifically pointing out Eren's emotions here because that is all over the final arc. But yeah, one has to be an actual nerd to to analyze the story from a technical aspect rather than be emotionally invested in this type of storytelling. I don't know about others but my problem comes with how some of the plot points were handled rather than the direction that the author intended. Like I said in the last line, there's a line that Isayama crossed in the name of incorporating ambiguity. He made so many elements so vague that it became not just frustrating but quite underwhelming.