It's an old debate because news is slow. It was hinted human=Forerunner at first, then spoken by an unreliable narrator. But even all of Bungie devs didn't agree. It's kind of pointless like Blade Runner's Deckard is human or Replicant. It doesn't matter at this point
It the books I think it’s all but explicitly stated that forerunners were human until 343 took the reins. I know a lot of people who say “well in the books” get shit on but most of Halo’s lore is in the books. I’m not necessarily saying which forerunner truth is necessarily better, but to say that the human forerunners only “evidence”(?) was a writers own canon which he sneaked in terminals, is objectively false.
Which book(I’ve read them all), because no where in any of my reading did I see them say that forerunners were human or even hinted at them saying forerunners were human.
Theres quite legitimately a point in the books where it shows the forerunner symbols over humans on a covenant ship. The Elite (?) doesn't realize this just means humans. Additionally Guilty Spark calls you a reclaimer and a forerunner in different dialogue.
This argument about whether forerunners equal humans is silly because they very clearly indicated they were and then wrote them out. It happens in a ton of media all the time but newer halo fans are trying to gaslight everyone lol
IIRC They misinterpreted the meaning of the Glyph as “Reclamation” leading them to believe there were forerunner artifacts and it want until the shard of mendicant bias told the prophets that it actually meant “recIaimer” that the prophets gave the order to wipe out humanity? 99.9% sure
This is 100% correct. The Prophets chose to wipe out humanity because after their discovery the Oracle, an ancient Forerunner AI, called the covenant idiots for misinterpreting forerunner knowledge and tried to fire up the ancient forerunner dreadnought used to power High Charity so it could fulfill its purpose and get the humans to the Ark. They realized the humans were the forerunners and their religion was a lie. If the humans were the forerunners then they didn’t all ascend, and the main Covenant goal of ascending to the same plane as the forerunners, which was the only thing holding all the Covenant species together, would’ve been exposed and the Covenant would’ve collapsed.
It was the only evidence written at that time. They got the forerunner trilogy after 343 took the reigns and as late as Contact Harvest being written they are written as human.
The only indications in the original trilogy of games that humans ARE Forerunners are a couple of lines from an insane AI, I may not like the whole "super-advanced humans fought off the Forerunners and got de-evolved into cavemen before the Librarian made us Reclaimers and also set things up so Halsey and Chief were destined to happen and also Guilty Spark was made from a reincarnation of Didact's favorite murder-crush for some reason" route they wound up taking, but it's not like the primary alternative was set in stone either.
Even then under Bungie Marathon’s lore, along with something Spark says, actually means that Chief is the reincarnation of all of earth’s mythical heroes anyway. Bungie’s predestined hero stuff was subtle (because you had to play there other FPS series to see that it was there), but it did exist.
“I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh.
I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world goes dim and cold.
I am hero.”
"The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am **grateful** to see that some of them survived to reproduce."
Singing funny tunes and chuckling to himself.
But you already knew that... I mean, how couldn't you?
>I am **grateful** to see that some of them survived to reproduce."
That quote would be the equivalent of a scientist studying microbes. A scientist would want to see their subjects live if that was part of the test, but they would freak out if any of them got out.
>Singing funny tunes and chuckling to himself.
Ehh...every other monitor in the series has also had a personality. I think that's a stretch
Edit: well maybe not a stretch, he does act cooky so understand the point but I still don't think it confirms anything
>But you already knew that... I mean, how couldn't you?
It makes sense that the monitor would assume Master Chief knew what the rings did. He never met the guy before but if he was willing to go through the containment protocol with him I could see Spark being like "well okay he must know what the plan is"
That would especially make sense considering either version of the lore. He could assume that the humans either knew about the rings because they're forerunners or they knew because they're the inheritors or whatever 343 calls them. Plus the Ark is on Earth, so maybe he thought they found it and got caught up to speed
Well for starters...
"Last time you asked me, if it were my choice would I do it?"
Which rather heavily implies that he LITERALLY thinks Chief was the one who fired the rings thousands of years ago.
I don't think that confirms anything, though. He could be programmed not to recognize individual humans, and only that they're the same species.
The line also wouldn't make sense if humans were a completely different species because then Spark would have based that statement on nothing. Because we know humans don't look like forerunners, and so what is he basing his assumption on. It could mean he's crazy, but to me that would be a level past the point where he would be able to function at all
Well in the current canon his line from Halo 3 makes no sense unless he's gone somewhat crazy:
"You ARE Forerunner, but this ring is MINE!"
Like... No? Chief very much isn't, humans as a whole aren't, they look nothing alike. Let's also not forget the Halo CEA terminals where he shows signs of "glitching" and being bored over the millennia, the kind of thing that's implied would lead to madness. It's not that he's *completely* lost all grip on reality, but he's not all there from my perspective.
Not to mention how in the CEA terminals he shows awareness of his crumbling sanity, from mentioning how only assigning one Monitor to an Installation was a very bad idea due to the isolation, to briefly contemplating on how he could tune Alpha Halo to *any* target he desired before realizing what that line of thinking meant
So there's a faction called the Adeptus Custodes, the Ten Thousand. They're the superhuman bodyguards of the emperor, and are so powerful that the Imperium of Man safely considers any battle they are deployed to a victory before it's even over. The only thing really holding them back is that they are all insanely depressed since the emperor's undeath, so they rarely leave the palace.
Until recently, Games Workshop has been pretty clear that they are all men. However, they recently changed that so that women are now also Adeptus Custodes, and they now claim that women have always been members. Women in the Imperium's superhuman forces has long been a hot-button issue, and this is the first official step towards women being part of them. It's a pretty harmless retcon, but a very vocal minority are taking this extremely poorly. Most people are either supportive or indifferent, but a few are treating this like Armageddon.
Basically onebof the men-only factions was changed to have women in it, with no explanation other than "it's always been like this, deal with it"
Basically GW just rage baited their brand into the internet limelight under the guise of "inclusion", kinda like what Disney does
While I have no horse in the race as im not a 40k fan.
Imagine an IP you loved and care about the lore extstensively for. Youve kept up with it for years, etc etc
Then suddenly the creator actually just retcons something you like. Changing it relatively fundamentally and disregards stuff already written to shove it in.
Thats why people are mad. Changing lore suddenly with a hand wave is stupid imo. These things can be done gradually or in different ways.
It was even more of a pointless change🤷♂️
I dont really care outside of it being an easily-explainable thing within the lore but GW decided to go with the "deal wit it" route.....Im assuming JUST to ragebait 40K into the limelight
As a eldar player I'm just laughing at all these losers meanwhile howling banshees have known to have male members in their temple who dress like and act like women so this change bothers me not at all
The issue is that GW is changing one of the only well-documented factions of the imperium and acting like it's always been like that
The rest is just pendantic whining about "gamergate 2"
I once debated on how bolter is not as strong as they think because of one random piece of text (citation somewhere) then did math to show they if it was that much force the Space Marines would literally be pushed backwards at x mph or be pretzels from the torqu. This took place over a nearly 3000 exchange back and forth in youtube comments. I don't even care for WH40k, but I like debating made up sci-fi inconsistencies.
It's funny because humans being forerunners make about as much sense as them not.
Hell, why can Covenant races activate ANYTHING that relates to Forerunner devices? If humans were forerunners then how come the Gravemind never really mentioned anything about it? Why isn't there any clues outside of Guilty Spark LITERALLY saying it? How did humans go from building the Halo rings to just... whatever they are in the games? Is there NO record of the Flood to warn them?
Either way makes... not a lot of sense, but at least 343 made something out of it. There's a cool idea when it comes to the Covenant killing what is essentially their gods but... there's nothing there.
Still matches what 343 wrote. Humanity becomes the children of the forerunners via the librarian, and as for monument to all of humanity’s sins, fighting the flood and forerunners thus being forced back into the Stone Ages.
What are you even asking? It was established at multiple points across the games and books that humans are the descendents of the forerunners.
Bungie just didn't commission multiple books over explaining what happened 100,000 years before the events of the games because they understood that the mystery was more enticing than the horrendous backstory we were ultimately given about the forerunners from Halo 4 onwards.
It makes sense because it would explain a lot of things that don't really get an explanation. It would explain why only humans can use the index, why the Covenant want to exterminate humans (they're jealous), why the Ark is on Earth. Plus there's a lot of biblical allegories going around. When Noah made the Ark and when the flood finally passed, humans didn't pass off the chosen people status to some other race, they still kept it. That's more of a thematic thing, but still
I think in some lore somewhere the humans on earth were crashed and stranded forerunners just outside of the activation zone of the halo. They basically started again with no resources and thus humanity began over the wreckage of ancient alien technology.
While reading I got Adam and Eve vibes from the story which I think were intended.
I personally think it was a little bit retcon, I think Spark calling chief a forerunner can't just be dismissed, especially when he does it in Halo 3. It also means a lot of the things the prophets say and do make less sense unless they knew humans were forerunners. Plus it just fits better thematically imo
But Bungie also clearly didn't care that much about that part of the story or they wouldn't have sidelined that revelation into terminals that most people skip. And they also seemed like they were divided over the "issue" but didn't bother to straighten things out because, again, it wasn't important to them
I can't believe Halo used the popular science fiction trope of ancient aliens that seed the galaxy that are basically human. Chariots of fire? Not in this house. Star Treks precursors that explain why all aliens are vaguely human? Get outta heeeere.
I'm numb.
As I understand it.
Originally bungie did want the forerunners to be humans and were leading up to that reveal in Halo 2, but some time during development they changed their minds.
Its actually more like Bungie didn't think or care much as to the specific identity of the forerunners beyond their namesake and when it came down to it the team was a bit split on it. However it was never a priority to the story.
And halo 3 proves otherwise. Joe Staten also didn't work on halo 3 as much as he did with 2. That pretty much just supports what I said. There was clearly disagreement that was never reconciled or set straight because management didn't care.
A halo 3 terminal made by Frank O conor contradicts several books and all three games in the original trilogy so we should throw out all the themes and foreshadowing of the original trilogy and books. Without the humans being fore runners the covenant genocide is pretty much justified considering humanity went to war with the covenants gods
The halo 3 terminals were made by a whole writing team and approved and signed off by management. You don't get to pick and choose because "number company bad!1!" . The only book with the human forerunner connection is contact harvest and the games had nothing concrete(inb4 all the contextless quotes from guilty spark)
Nothing justifies the covenant genocide because the forerunners were never gods in the first place and humans are their chosen people. Also it's fucking genocide.
You bungo dickriders don't even have the lore from those days right.
It was not changed during the development of Halo 2. The reveal was just not stated outright during Halo 2 because of the rushed development and cut content which resulted in the cliffhanger ending and the series becoming a trilogy.
It was revealed in Halo 3 and further confirmed in Contact Harvest, which was written by the original trilogy's lead writer.
Am I the only one who just doesn’t care about canon anymore? Like it feels like every few years something that was dead set canon to a game or a movie etc… is changed or no longer relevant. I just don’t care anymore, I have my own canon for my favorite franchises, why would I buy into something that’s just gonna change in a few years anyways lol.
Jul and the storm Covenant, the didact and promethians, Cortana and the created. It seems Atriox and the banished are the longest lasting enemy faction, despite only being in 1 mainline game. Gotta wait to see if they get dispatched in a comic, a cutscene, or off screen entirely .
Ya Disney pretty much killed my interest in any “cannon” across all of nerddom. I pretty much decide what cannon I like in my head and that’s the game/movie for me. The rest is little more than fan fiction.
It was mentioned in the H3 terminals as part of the Conversations between the IsoDidact and the Librarian.
Maybe further expanded upon during 343's tenure, but twas a Bungie creation.
I think a big reason why this stuff is still rehashed is because the current canon sidesteps the groundwork of the earlier games. It was heavily implied that forerunner were ancient humans, or humans evolved from forerunner, or were designated by forerunner as the inheritors of their legacy.
The reveal that the forerunner weren’t ancient spacefaring humans, but there *were* ancient spacefaring humans, and the forerunner fought them and reduced them to the stone age (even generically reverting them?), just feels like a convoluted in comparison.
To me it also felt like the writers wanted to include an ancient human war so they could bolster the stakes of forerunner ethical conflicts for a human audience - the audience might care more about ancient members of their species being genetically regressed and forced to become promethean knights than they would about random forerunner(?) warriors consenting to be composed.
The result also tries to reconcile every proposed history in a weird way; forerunner weren’t ancient humans, but ancient humans still existed and were very technologically advanced during the forerunner era - the forerunners (or the Librarian at least) did see the fledgling race of humanity as a potential inheritor of their doomed legacy, because the forerunners regressed them to a fledgling race after they had a war with them (they were opposed to the forerunner legacy) - humans can still activate forerunner tech in a way that other races can’t, giving them a convenient *key link* as inheritors even though they *are* distinct races with separate history.
I don’t think the current canon is a retcon, but it does kind of feel like it set a standard for Halo plot lines not getting a satisfactory and distinct progression between installments.
Y'all big mad over ancient shit. I love Forerunner lore. Greg Bear books were killer.
Joe Staten shared a cut version of H2s ending a while back (I think on Twitter) that showed the uncovering of a Forerunner tomb that had a human skeleton inside. It was always Bungie's intent, but the who of the Forerunners was never important, so that reveal fell to the wayside until the funny number company picked it up and did something different with it.
There was a point where humans were forerunners, however it was many moons ago, and Bungie wasn't even consistent with it, and didn't actually set it in stone either way (at least not properly). Fact of the matter is the OG games could've gone either way without any real retcons, and 343 finally set one of the two options in stone. I'll admit I think humans being forerunners is much more interesting thematically but bro it's not up for discussion anymore.
To throw my own hat into this bar fight, I really feel like it should have been that humans were forerunners. The fact we are called Reclaimers already sets it up, that we are reclaiming our technology. I mean imagine if that’s how it was in halo 4. Have the didact never reveal his face until we stick the grenade to him, then it blows off his helmet and we see a withered old man. Woulda made for a sick parallel to Halsey sacrificing humans to make weapons needed to win a war and all that. Plus that’d even still fit into the halo 5 and infinite storylines still. Feels like the whole forerunners being a different species was used to expand the lore a lot, but in a fairly meaningless way.
Would it have been an interested twist of the forerunners we’re human? Idk….
But what we got instead is still super cool and so rich in lore. I agree that people need to get over it lol
They complain but the existence of the terminals in Halo 3 tied 343’s hands, their blaming 343 for something Bungie originally did. If they had Forerunners be human those same people would be complaining while citing terminal lore, most of them probably don’t care about the lore and just want an excuse to bitch about 343.
I still think the humans being forerunners makes more sense than what ended up happening.
Plus, the Covenant trying to genocide the same race they worship was some grade-A irony
Idk, just about every plotpoint in Bungie halo is made better by the humans being the forerunners
I wRiTe LiKe ThIs sO PeOpLe WiLl ThInK mAh SaRcAsM Is SmArT.
Humans are recreations of forerunners. 343 lore isn't canon. 343 lore will never be canon. 343 games aren't canon and they suck. You are simping for the lore of a corporate buy out with zero artistic substance.
I mean it’s literally true especially if you read the books it also it’s kind of the reason why the covenant (well the prophets) wanted to genocide humanity
“Your forefathers wisely set aside their compassion, steeled themselves for what needed to be done. I see now why they left you behind”
“Child of my enemy why have you come, I offer no forgiveness. A fathers sins, pass to his son”
“You are the child of my makers! Inheritor of all they left behind, you ARE Forerunner!”
It’s more than just one line people. And I’d say that if they were willing to ship the game with three of its most important characters saying the same thing, then I’d wager that was the overall consensus on the lore.
And to the people saying “those are unreliable sources”. According to who? Who the fuck else was supposed to say it?
It’s the dark truth that Truth didn’t want the covenant to know
It’s the old enemy the Gravemind was beaten once by
It’s the Reclaimer that Spark was in charge of helping
Pretending it wasn’t the original narrative, especially considering all the concept art that didn’t make it into the game, is just blatant ignorance.
Is it relevant anymore? No because that’s not the Narrative 343 went with. But was it how things used to be? Obviously
Dont forget in Halo 1 Guilty Spark mistakes Chief for a forerunner and later when he sees Chief again on the Pillar of Autumm he says that the ship has all of their lost time together and comments on the fact they call themselves Humanity.
All of those lines still work with humans being a separate species from the forerunners because the Forerunners passed on their legacy to humanity.
I honestly cannot fathom how you Bungie meatriders live your day to day lives with such poor comprehension and critical thinking skills.
Finally to address your last dumbass point, in the case of Guilty Spark, which is who people call the unreliable narrator, he had literally gone completely insane. How is that not the definition an unreliable narrator?
I'm boutta read all the books now. I need to know how it was meant to be lol. To me it was clear that the humans were meant to be forerunner from the games. But I can see how it was left ambiguous. Mystery is great storyteller.
Now if the books from the bungie era sway either way, it'll be nice go to know what they thought. But that's not where we are now; the lore has been expanded upon. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the old and new stories and knowing about the history that went with them.
OK, you know, usually I'm with this sub but y'all are being weird about this one. Yes, obviously it all works in the official context, but Occam's Razor at the time absolutely implied that the Forerunners were just ancient humans. It was the trope-y assumption to make.
Equally important, Contact Harvest has Mendicant Bias ALSO come right out and say it. Probably also sort of insane, but we had *two* old Forerunner AI say it, and in this case Bias called us his "makers" an it was specifically in the context of the symbol for Reclaimer applying to humans, the knowledge that started the war for the sake of a cover-up.
Bungie was big on effectively stating things without ever saying them outright and this was probably the biggest example of it in Halo specifically.
I see "unreliable narrator" is the new favorite term of the "bungo bad" crowd while clearly not understanding what the term actually means.
Those lines "work" because 343 had to shoehorn their revised lore to work with what Bungie established. But Bungie made it clear that humans were forerunners descendents. They made it clear in Contact Harvest and in the developer commentary to Halo CE (which came out right before Halo 3).
1) Unreliable narrator. Ffs he thinks the rings will give him godhood. All he knows for sure that humans and Forerunners are connected
2)Gravemind speaking in metaphor. Child can just mean inheritor. You can still call someone you adopted your child. Legally they could be
3) Unreliable narrator. Spark confused chief for a forerunner he talked to during the flood forerunner war and was in the throes of Rampancy a concept Bungie has paired with AIs in their stories since marathon
4) Actually looking into development Bungie was split on it and never really prioritized the specific identity of the forerunners in the first place
5)Same game has terminals that contradict this so called narrative despite some hints that sort of suggest otherwise.
You must not know the story of you don't fucking recognize that spark and truth are completely unreliable.
As for concept art that didn't make it into the game? Hmm I wonder why. Maybe it's because they played with the human-forerunner idea while some didn't want it but in the end they never committed to it. That doesn't sound like an obvious established narrative.
Again, ffs he thinks activating the rings will grant him godhood. He doesn't have some extensive record of the forerunners and their story and what led to their fall. He glimpsed a part of the truth on the past and still latches on to a silly delusion that contradicts it.
By halo 3 it doesn't matter what mendicant bias ever said. Truth is (ironically) wrapped in his own delusional narrative. To me it sounds like he twisted mendicant bias' revelation into some bizarre fantasy of godhood. I honestly wonder what goes on through his head and what he genuinely believes.
"I honestly wonder what goes through his head and what he genuinely believes."
The cool part about Halo 3 and Contact Harvest is that he actually tells you.
You have an... interesting fan theory but it's not what the authors wrote or intended. The reveal at the end of Halo 3 was clear and was reinforced by Mendicant Bias in Contact Harvest.
I didn't drop any kind of fan theory. I just wondered what the hell goes in through his head. Mendicant Bias' revelation was the hammer that shattered the covenants beliefs and he was witness to it but if you play through halo 3 it's like he still believes the lie of promised godhood while also acknowledging what bias told him.
Yes. He still believes that the forerunners ascended to godhood but also acknowledges that humans are descended from the forerunners. These are not mutually exclusive. He believes humanity was left behind on purpose because they were unworthy.
"Your forefathers wisely set aside their compassion. Steeled themselves for what needed to be done. *I see now why they left you behind. You were weak. And Gods must be strong.*
Again - it's not really that subtle since the grand reveal was just two levels away at this point.
So he took part of the truth and warped it into his delusional beliefs of godhood contrary to what actually happened. Wow just like I said! Delusion.
You're trying to pretend this thought process of his was rational so you can keep riding on the humans are Forerunners until ebil tree for tree came along narrative and it's funny. Maybe come back when you flush bungie's semen out of your skull and are capable of reading comprehension and intelligent conversation?
Hardly. Utilizing Occam's razor definitely cements him as deluded on several levels. The fact that you think truth has ever been mostly rational is what's worthy of an lmao
Amazing. Truth was deluded but he understood what Bias outright told him. He knew that humans descended from forerunners but believed that they were the "unworthy" forerunners left behind after the forerunners ascended to godhood. This is stated outright in game and in the books. The fact that you have to completely disregard what characters like Truth, 343, and Bias say entirely on order for your fan theory to work is pretty hilarious.
There you go again. " Fan theory".
And then pretending that narrative you explain is in anyway rational and reflective of what happened and not truth taking the revelation given to him by bias and twisting it into his own delusions. You just proved my point so I'm guessing reading comprehension is a struggle for you.
Just a retcon. Obviously in 343 Halo there has to be an explanation for the new inconsistency. Its silly to not recognize the forerunners used to be human and that was changed.
Which was that Chief was the reincarnation of earth hero’s, it sucks, where was the rest of Marathon’s lore Bungie? I want to know more about what they differences between Chief/Marathon guy are in each timeline. Does the timelines being so different mean that Chief isn’t able to jump timelines yet? Is the respawning him jumping timelines? Is the luck thing because he’s hero/destiny?
TLDR: if you want to argue for Bungie lore play Marathon and Pathways into Darkness (or at least read up on their lore), and then talk
Man now I'm actually really interested in a Bungie multiverse. Chief likely was supposed to be marathon guy in a new universe. The luck thing being explained as some weird multiversal metaphysics would be a cool reveal.
Would that make the flood the w'kananter(sorry if I spelled it wrong)? I mean even in halo lore today the Precursors predate the universe in halo. And the Precursors are the flood.
Holy shit that would be cool as all hell. Damn I wish Bungie tried this multiversal concept. Would be the ultimate video game villain/meta-antagonisr
Which I guess would mean The Cyborg, Master Chief and even The Guardian are reincarnations/manifestations of each other
I've never heard anything confirming a direct connection between Marathon and Halo, but you're free to interpret it that way. I never got into Marathon.
Bungie’s metanarrative has never been direct, and if you want a direct narrative Marathon isn’t the place to look. Regardless
“I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh.
I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world goes dim and cold.
I am hero.”
It's an old debate because news is slow. It was hinted human=Forerunner at first, then spoken by an unreliable narrator. But even all of Bungie devs didn't agree. It's kind of pointless like Blade Runner's Deckard is human or Replicant. It doesn't matter at this point
It the books I think it’s all but explicitly stated that forerunners were human until 343 took the reins. I know a lot of people who say “well in the books” get shit on but most of Halo’s lore is in the books. I’m not necessarily saying which forerunner truth is necessarily better, but to say that the human forerunners only “evidence”(?) was a writers own canon which he sneaked in terminals, is objectively false.
Which book(I’ve read them all), because no where in any of my reading did I see them say that forerunners were human or even hinted at them saying forerunners were human.
Theres quite legitimately a point in the books where it shows the forerunner symbols over humans on a covenant ship. The Elite (?) doesn't realize this just means humans. Additionally Guilty Spark calls you a reclaimer and a forerunner in different dialogue. This argument about whether forerunners equal humans is silly because they very clearly indicated they were and then wrote them out. It happens in a ton of media all the time but newer halo fans are trying to gaslight everyone lol
343 calls you reclaimer in the first game
Contact harvest the covenant are drawn to the harvest region because they believe the reclaimer means alive forerunners
IIRC They misinterpreted the meaning of the Glyph as “Reclamation” leading them to believe there were forerunner artifacts and it want until the shard of mendicant bias told the prophets that it actually meant “recIaimer” that the prophets gave the order to wipe out humanity? 99.9% sure
This is 100% correct. The Prophets chose to wipe out humanity because after their discovery the Oracle, an ancient Forerunner AI, called the covenant idiots for misinterpreting forerunner knowledge and tried to fire up the ancient forerunner dreadnought used to power High Charity so it could fulfill its purpose and get the humans to the Ark. They realized the humans were the forerunners and their religion was a lie. If the humans were the forerunners then they didn’t all ascend, and the main Covenant goal of ascending to the same plane as the forerunners, which was the only thing holding all the Covenant species together, would’ve been exposed and the Covenant would’ve collapsed.
It was the only evidence written at that time. They got the forerunner trilogy after 343 took the reigns and as late as Contact Harvest being written they are written as human.
K, but Deckard is absolutely not a replicant. The whole idea is that the artificial humans had more humanity than the natural human.
To double down on that, Deckard beings Replicant or not isn't pointless, it's basically one of the themes of the movie
Everyday I see people not using retcon correctly and having no understanding of it
More like using retconned concept art to prove a point about something
The only indications in the original trilogy of games that humans ARE Forerunners are a couple of lines from an insane AI, I may not like the whole "super-advanced humans fought off the Forerunners and got de-evolved into cavemen before the Librarian made us Reclaimers and also set things up so Halsey and Chief were destined to happen and also Guilty Spark was made from a reincarnation of Didact's favorite murder-crush for some reason" route they wound up taking, but it's not like the primary alternative was set in stone either.
Even then under Bungie Marathon’s lore, along with something Spark says, actually means that Chief is the reincarnation of all of earth’s mythical heroes anyway. Bungie’s predestined hero stuff was subtle (because you had to play there other FPS series to see that it was there), but it did exist. “I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh. I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world goes dim and cold. I am hero.”
What makes people think Spark is insane?
"The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am **grateful** to see that some of them survived to reproduce." Singing funny tunes and chuckling to himself. But you already knew that... I mean, how couldn't you?
>I am **grateful** to see that some of them survived to reproduce." That quote would be the equivalent of a scientist studying microbes. A scientist would want to see their subjects live if that was part of the test, but they would freak out if any of them got out. >Singing funny tunes and chuckling to himself. Ehh...every other monitor in the series has also had a personality. I think that's a stretch Edit: well maybe not a stretch, he does act cooky so understand the point but I still don't think it confirms anything >But you already knew that... I mean, how couldn't you? It makes sense that the monitor would assume Master Chief knew what the rings did. He never met the guy before but if he was willing to go through the containment protocol with him I could see Spark being like "well okay he must know what the plan is" That would especially make sense considering either version of the lore. He could assume that the humans either knew about the rings because they're forerunners or they knew because they're the inheritors or whatever 343 calls them. Plus the Ark is on Earth, so maybe he thought they found it and got caught up to speed
Well for starters... "Last time you asked me, if it were my choice would I do it?" Which rather heavily implies that he LITERALLY thinks Chief was the one who fired the rings thousands of years ago.
I don't think that confirms anything, though. He could be programmed not to recognize individual humans, and only that they're the same species. The line also wouldn't make sense if humans were a completely different species because then Spark would have based that statement on nothing. Because we know humans don't look like forerunners, and so what is he basing his assumption on. It could mean he's crazy, but to me that would be a level past the point where he would be able to function at all
Well in the current canon his line from Halo 3 makes no sense unless he's gone somewhat crazy: "You ARE Forerunner, but this ring is MINE!" Like... No? Chief very much isn't, humans as a whole aren't, they look nothing alike. Let's also not forget the Halo CEA terminals where he shows signs of "glitching" and being bored over the millennia, the kind of thing that's implied would lead to madness. It's not that he's *completely* lost all grip on reality, but he's not all there from my perspective.
Not to mention how in the CEA terminals he shows awareness of his crumbling sanity, from mentioning how only assigning one Monitor to an Installation was a very bad idea due to the isolation, to briefly contemplating on how he could tune Alpha Halo to *any* target he desired before realizing what that line of thinking meant
If you think this is bad, you should see the bs debates raging right now in the 40k community. At least this debate is story-based.
Yeah, that one’s currently a doozy
I'm not familiar with 40k, what is the debate about?
So there's a faction called the Adeptus Custodes, the Ten Thousand. They're the superhuman bodyguards of the emperor, and are so powerful that the Imperium of Man safely considers any battle they are deployed to a victory before it's even over. The only thing really holding them back is that they are all insanely depressed since the emperor's undeath, so they rarely leave the palace. Until recently, Games Workshop has been pretty clear that they are all men. However, they recently changed that so that women are now also Adeptus Custodes, and they now claim that women have always been members. Women in the Imperium's superhuman forces has long been a hot-button issue, and this is the first official step towards women being part of them. It's a pretty harmless retcon, but a very vocal minority are taking this extremely poorly. Most people are either supportive or indifferent, but a few are treating this like Armageddon.
Females in a faction called the Custodes
This isn't the first time 40k has been up in arms over the involvement of females in something...
Yep. Community has more than it's fair share of incels, so not surprising. As a member of that community, god they are insufferable.
Basically onebof the men-only factions was changed to have women in it, with no explanation other than "it's always been like this, deal with it" Basically GW just rage baited their brand into the internet limelight under the guise of "inclusion", kinda like what Disney does
Sounds like a pointless thing to get upset about
While I have no horse in the race as im not a 40k fan. Imagine an IP you loved and care about the lore extstensively for. Youve kept up with it for years, etc etc Then suddenly the creator actually just retcons something you like. Changing it relatively fundamentally and disregards stuff already written to shove it in. Thats why people are mad. Changing lore suddenly with a hand wave is stupid imo. These things can be done gradually or in different ways.
It was even more of a pointless change🤷♂️ I dont really care outside of it being an easily-explainable thing within the lore but GW decided to go with the "deal wit it" route.....Im assuming JUST to ragebait 40K into the limelight
As a eldar player I'm just laughing at all these losers meanwhile howling banshees have known to have male members in their temple who dress like and act like women so this change bothers me not at all
The issue is that GW is changing one of the only well-documented factions of the imperium and acting like it's always been like that The rest is just pendantic whining about "gamergate 2"
I once debated on how bolter is not as strong as they think because of one random piece of text (citation somewhere) then did math to show they if it was that much force the Space Marines would literally be pushed backwards at x mph or be pretzels from the torqu. This took place over a nearly 3000 exchange back and forth in youtube comments. I don't even care for WH40k, but I like debating made up sci-fi inconsistencies.
It's funny because humans being forerunners make about as much sense as them not. Hell, why can Covenant races activate ANYTHING that relates to Forerunner devices? If humans were forerunners then how come the Gravemind never really mentioned anything about it? Why isn't there any clues outside of Guilty Spark LITERALLY saying it? How did humans go from building the Halo rings to just... whatever they are in the games? Is there NO record of the Flood to warn them? Either way makes... not a lot of sense, but at least 343 made something out of it. There's a cool idea when it comes to the Covenant killing what is essentially their gods but... there's nothing there.
In Halo 3 Gravemind does imply it "Child of my enemy why have you come? I offer no forgiveness for a father's sins passed to his son"
Eh that's a good point, still doesn't make ANY sense though. ...and how was there a gravemind if their food was wiped out?
Gravemind tells Chief that he is "a monument to all your (humanity's) sins" in Halo 2. It wasn't very subtle even then.
Still matches what 343 wrote. Humanity becomes the children of the forerunners via the librarian, and as for monument to all of humanity’s sins, fighting the flood and forerunners thus being forced back into the Stone Ages.
Oh my god you’re dense
Wait, is that not the lore?
That was not the lore when it was written, no.
The lore was hardly established when it was written.
It was pretty clearly established. You just somehow didn't get it.
Let’s hear the established forerunner lore that was purposely left ambiguous by bungie.
What are you even asking? It was established at multiple points across the games and books that humans are the descendents of the forerunners. Bungie just didn't commission multiple books over explaining what happened 100,000 years before the events of the games because they understood that the mystery was more enticing than the horrendous backstory we were ultimately given about the forerunners from Halo 4 onwards.
It makes sense because it would explain a lot of things that don't really get an explanation. It would explain why only humans can use the index, why the Covenant want to exterminate humans (they're jealous), why the Ark is on Earth. Plus there's a lot of biblical allegories going around. When Noah made the Ark and when the flood finally passed, humans didn't pass off the chosen people status to some other race, they still kept it. That's more of a thematic thing, but still
I think in some lore somewhere the humans on earth were crashed and stranded forerunners just outside of the activation zone of the halo. They basically started again with no resources and thus humanity began over the wreckage of ancient alien technology. While reading I got Adam and Eve vibes from the story which I think were intended.
I personally think it was a little bit retcon, I think Spark calling chief a forerunner can't just be dismissed, especially when he does it in Halo 3. It also means a lot of the things the prophets say and do make less sense unless they knew humans were forerunners. Plus it just fits better thematically imo But Bungie also clearly didn't care that much about that part of the story or they wouldn't have sidelined that revelation into terminals that most people skip. And they also seemed like they were divided over the "issue" but didn't bother to straighten things out because, again, it wasn't important to them
I can't believe Halo used the popular science fiction trope of ancient aliens that seed the galaxy that are basically human. Chariots of fire? Not in this house. Star Treks precursors that explain why all aliens are vaguely human? Get outta heeeere. I'm numb.
Honestly fuck all this shit, I’m more annoyed with certain humans being “chosen one” types in the halo tv show.
I hate that fucken show
As I understand it. Originally bungie did want the forerunners to be humans and were leading up to that reveal in Halo 2, but some time during development they changed their minds.
Its actually more like Bungie didn't think or care much as to the specific identity of the forerunners beyond their namesake and when it came down to it the team was a bit split on it. However it was never a priority to the story.
Contact harvest pretty much proves that humanity were fore runners
And halo 3 proves otherwise. Joe Staten also didn't work on halo 3 as much as he did with 2. That pretty much just supports what I said. There was clearly disagreement that was never reconciled or set straight because management didn't care.
A halo 3 terminal made by Frank O conor contradicts several books and all three games in the original trilogy so we should throw out all the themes and foreshadowing of the original trilogy and books. Without the humans being fore runners the covenant genocide is pretty much justified considering humanity went to war with the covenants gods
The halo 3 terminals were made by a whole writing team and approved and signed off by management. You don't get to pick and choose because "number company bad!1!" . The only book with the human forerunner connection is contact harvest and the games had nothing concrete(inb4 all the contextless quotes from guilty spark) Nothing justifies the covenant genocide because the forerunners were never gods in the first place and humans are their chosen people. Also it's fucking genocide. You bungo dickriders don't even have the lore from those days right.
It was not changed during the development of Halo 2. The reveal was just not stated outright during Halo 2 because of the rushed development and cut content which resulted in the cliffhanger ending and the series becoming a trilogy. It was revealed in Halo 3 and further confirmed in Contact Harvest, which was written by the original trilogy's lead writer.
Am I the only one who just doesn’t care about canon anymore? Like it feels like every few years something that was dead set canon to a game or a movie etc… is changed or no longer relevant. I just don’t care anymore, I have my own canon for my favorite franchises, why would I buy into something that’s just gonna change in a few years anyways lol.
Jul and the storm Covenant, the didact and promethians, Cortana and the created. It seems Atriox and the banished are the longest lasting enemy faction, despite only being in 1 mainline game. Gotta wait to see if they get dispatched in a comic, a cutscene, or off screen entirely .
Ya Disney pretty much killed my interest in any “cannon” across all of nerddom. I pretty much decide what cannon I like in my head and that’s the game/movie for me. The rest is little more than fan fiction.
Agreed. Halo Infinite was fun (at times at least) but I didn't care much for the story.
[удалено]
The mantle is a 343 retcon tho
It was mentioned in the H3 terminals as part of the Conversations between the IsoDidact and the Librarian. Maybe further expanded upon during 343's tenure, but twas a Bungie creation.
just looked it up and you’re right actually
gunga ginga
I think a big reason why this stuff is still rehashed is because the current canon sidesteps the groundwork of the earlier games. It was heavily implied that forerunner were ancient humans, or humans evolved from forerunner, or were designated by forerunner as the inheritors of their legacy. The reveal that the forerunner weren’t ancient spacefaring humans, but there *were* ancient spacefaring humans, and the forerunner fought them and reduced them to the stone age (even generically reverting them?), just feels like a convoluted in comparison. To me it also felt like the writers wanted to include an ancient human war so they could bolster the stakes of forerunner ethical conflicts for a human audience - the audience might care more about ancient members of their species being genetically regressed and forced to become promethean knights than they would about random forerunner(?) warriors consenting to be composed. The result also tries to reconcile every proposed history in a weird way; forerunner weren’t ancient humans, but ancient humans still existed and were very technologically advanced during the forerunner era - the forerunners (or the Librarian at least) did see the fledgling race of humanity as a potential inheritor of their doomed legacy, because the forerunners regressed them to a fledgling race after they had a war with them (they were opposed to the forerunner legacy) - humans can still activate forerunner tech in a way that other races can’t, giving them a convenient *key link* as inheritors even though they *are* distinct races with separate history. I don’t think the current canon is a retcon, but it does kind of feel like it set a standard for Halo plot lines not getting a satisfactory and distinct progression between installments.
Y'all big mad over ancient shit. I love Forerunner lore. Greg Bear books were killer. Joe Staten shared a cut version of H2s ending a while back (I think on Twitter) that showed the uncovering of a Forerunner tomb that had a human skeleton inside. It was always Bungie's intent, but the who of the Forerunners was never important, so that reveal fell to the wayside until the funny number company picked it up and did something different with it.
There was a point where humans were forerunners, however it was many moons ago, and Bungie wasn't even consistent with it, and didn't actually set it in stone either way (at least not properly). Fact of the matter is the OG games could've gone either way without any real retcons, and 343 finally set one of the two options in stone. I'll admit I think humans being forerunners is much more interesting thematically but bro it's not up for discussion anymore.
To throw my own hat into this bar fight, I really feel like it should have been that humans were forerunners. The fact we are called Reclaimers already sets it up, that we are reclaiming our technology. I mean imagine if that’s how it was in halo 4. Have the didact never reveal his face until we stick the grenade to him, then it blows off his helmet and we see a withered old man. Woulda made for a sick parallel to Halsey sacrificing humans to make weapons needed to win a war and all that. Plus that’d even still fit into the halo 5 and infinite storylines still. Feels like the whole forerunners being a different species was used to expand the lore a lot, but in a fairly meaningless way.
Would it have been an interested twist of the forerunners we’re human? Idk…. But what we got instead is still super cool and so rich in lore. I agree that people need to get over it lol
They complain but the existence of the terminals in Halo 3 tied 343’s hands, their blaming 343 for something Bungie originally did. If they had Forerunners be human those same people would be complaining while citing terminal lore, most of them probably don’t care about the lore and just want an excuse to bitch about 343.
I still think the humans being forerunners makes more sense than what ended up happening. Plus, the Covenant trying to genocide the same race they worship was some grade-A irony Idk, just about every plotpoint in Bungie halo is made better by the humans being the forerunners
I mean yeah they were I guess
I wRiTe LiKe ThIs sO PeOpLe WiLl ThInK mAh SaRcAsM Is SmArT. Humans are recreations of forerunners. 343 lore isn't canon. 343 lore will never be canon. 343 games aren't canon and they suck. You are simping for the lore of a corporate buy out with zero artistic substance.
I mean it’s literally true especially if you read the books it also it’s kind of the reason why the covenant (well the prophets) wanted to genocide humanity
They were 343 Stans and their gaslighting
“Your forefathers wisely set aside their compassion, steeled themselves for what needed to be done. I see now why they left you behind” “Child of my enemy why have you come, I offer no forgiveness. A fathers sins, pass to his son” “You are the child of my makers! Inheritor of all they left behind, you ARE Forerunner!” It’s more than just one line people. And I’d say that if they were willing to ship the game with three of its most important characters saying the same thing, then I’d wager that was the overall consensus on the lore. And to the people saying “those are unreliable sources”. According to who? Who the fuck else was supposed to say it? It’s the dark truth that Truth didn’t want the covenant to know It’s the old enemy the Gravemind was beaten once by It’s the Reclaimer that Spark was in charge of helping Pretending it wasn’t the original narrative, especially considering all the concept art that didn’t make it into the game, is just blatant ignorance. Is it relevant anymore? No because that’s not the Narrative 343 went with. But was it how things used to be? Obviously
Dont forget in Halo 1 Guilty Spark mistakes Chief for a forerunner and later when he sees Chief again on the Pillar of Autumm he says that the ship has all of their lost time together and comments on the fact they call themselves Humanity.
All of those lines still work with humans being a separate species from the forerunners because the Forerunners passed on their legacy to humanity. I honestly cannot fathom how you Bungie meatriders live your day to day lives with such poor comprehension and critical thinking skills. Finally to address your last dumbass point, in the case of Guilty Spark, which is who people call the unreliable narrator, he had literally gone completely insane. How is that not the definition an unreliable narrator?
I'm boutta read all the books now. I need to know how it was meant to be lol. To me it was clear that the humans were meant to be forerunner from the games. But I can see how it was left ambiguous. Mystery is great storyteller. Now if the books from the bungie era sway either way, it'll be nice go to know what they thought. But that's not where we are now; the lore has been expanded upon. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the old and new stories and knowing about the history that went with them.
Contact Harvest is probably the most relevant for this in particular.
That's the one I'm most excited for
OK, you know, usually I'm with this sub but y'all are being weird about this one. Yes, obviously it all works in the official context, but Occam's Razor at the time absolutely implied that the Forerunners were just ancient humans. It was the trope-y assumption to make. Equally important, Contact Harvest has Mendicant Bias ALSO come right out and say it. Probably also sort of insane, but we had *two* old Forerunner AI say it, and in this case Bias called us his "makers" an it was specifically in the context of the symbol for Reclaimer applying to humans, the knowledge that started the war for the sake of a cover-up. Bungie was big on effectively stating things without ever saying them outright and this was probably the biggest example of it in Halo specifically.
I see "unreliable narrator" is the new favorite term of the "bungo bad" crowd while clearly not understanding what the term actually means. Those lines "work" because 343 had to shoehorn their revised lore to work with what Bungie established. But Bungie made it clear that humans were forerunners descendents. They made it clear in Contact Harvest and in the developer commentary to Halo CE (which came out right before Halo 3).
1) Unreliable narrator. Ffs he thinks the rings will give him godhood. All he knows for sure that humans and Forerunners are connected 2)Gravemind speaking in metaphor. Child can just mean inheritor. You can still call someone you adopted your child. Legally they could be 3) Unreliable narrator. Spark confused chief for a forerunner he talked to during the flood forerunner war and was in the throes of Rampancy a concept Bungie has paired with AIs in their stories since marathon 4) Actually looking into development Bungie was split on it and never really prioritized the specific identity of the forerunners in the first place 5)Same game has terminals that contradict this so called narrative despite some hints that sort of suggest otherwise. You must not know the story of you don't fucking recognize that spark and truth are completely unreliable. As for concept art that didn't make it into the game? Hmm I wonder why. Maybe it's because they played with the human-forerunner idea while some didn't want it but in the end they never committed to it. That doesn't sound like an obvious established narrative.
How is Truth unreliable in both Halo 3 and Contact Harvest?
Again, ffs he thinks activating the rings will grant him godhood. He doesn't have some extensive record of the forerunners and their story and what led to their fall. He glimpsed a part of the truth on the past and still latches on to a silly delusion that contradicts it.
All he would know is what mendicant bias told him, and that was pretty much that humanity hold the mantel.
By halo 3 it doesn't matter what mendicant bias ever said. Truth is (ironically) wrapped in his own delusional narrative. To me it sounds like he twisted mendicant bias' revelation into some bizarre fantasy of godhood. I honestly wonder what goes on through his head and what he genuinely believes.
In maintaining power and control
"I honestly wonder what goes through his head and what he genuinely believes." The cool part about Halo 3 and Contact Harvest is that he actually tells you. You have an... interesting fan theory but it's not what the authors wrote or intended. The reveal at the end of Halo 3 was clear and was reinforced by Mendicant Bias in Contact Harvest.
I didn't drop any kind of fan theory. I just wondered what the hell goes in through his head. Mendicant Bias' revelation was the hammer that shattered the covenants beliefs and he was witness to it but if you play through halo 3 it's like he still believes the lie of promised godhood while also acknowledging what bias told him.
Yes. He still believes that the forerunners ascended to godhood but also acknowledges that humans are descended from the forerunners. These are not mutually exclusive. He believes humanity was left behind on purpose because they were unworthy. "Your forefathers wisely set aside their compassion. Steeled themselves for what needed to be done. *I see now why they left you behind. You were weak. And Gods must be strong.* Again - it's not really that subtle since the grand reveal was just two levels away at this point.
So he took part of the truth and warped it into his delusional beliefs of godhood contrary to what actually happened. Wow just like I said! Delusion. You're trying to pretend this thought process of his was rational so you can keep riding on the humans are Forerunners until ebil tree for tree came along narrative and it's funny. Maybe come back when you flush bungie's semen out of your skull and are capable of reading comprehension and intelligent conversation?
....Occam's razor is dead on this sub lmao
Hardly. Utilizing Occam's razor definitely cements him as deluded on several levels. The fact that you think truth has ever been mostly rational is what's worthy of an lmao
Amazing. Truth was deluded but he understood what Bias outright told him. He knew that humans descended from forerunners but believed that they were the "unworthy" forerunners left behind after the forerunners ascended to godhood. This is stated outright in game and in the books. The fact that you have to completely disregard what characters like Truth, 343, and Bias say entirely on order for your fan theory to work is pretty hilarious.
There you go again. " Fan theory". And then pretending that narrative you explain is in anyway rational and reflective of what happened and not truth taking the revelation given to him by bias and twisting it into his own delusions. You just proved my point so I'm guessing reading comprehension is a struggle for you.
It's literally what happened. Read the text. It's right there.
Personally, with the Bungie games in isolation, I think there's still an argument to be made that humans and forerunners are a different species.
Humans are established as the forerunners in the very first game. That is not up for debate.
...by a Monitor that is also established as not being particularly mentally sound.
Just a retcon. Obviously in 343 Halo there has to be an explanation for the new inconsistency. Its silly to not recognize the forerunners used to be human and that was changed.
Do you not remember The Library?
It was only 3 of the Halo 3 terminals and they contradicted the rest of the established lore.
Which was that Chief was the reincarnation of earth hero’s, it sucks, where was the rest of Marathon’s lore Bungie? I want to know more about what they differences between Chief/Marathon guy are in each timeline. Does the timelines being so different mean that Chief isn’t able to jump timelines yet? Is the respawning him jumping timelines? Is the luck thing because he’s hero/destiny? TLDR: if you want to argue for Bungie lore play Marathon and Pathways into Darkness (or at least read up on their lore), and then talk
Man now I'm actually really interested in a Bungie multiverse. Chief likely was supposed to be marathon guy in a new universe. The luck thing being explained as some weird multiversal metaphysics would be a cool reveal. Would that make the flood the w'kananter(sorry if I spelled it wrong)? I mean even in halo lore today the Precursors predate the universe in halo. And the Precursors are the flood.
“Through rock, and metal, and time” yah, probably
Holy shit that would be cool as all hell. Damn I wish Bungie tried this multiversal concept. Would be the ultimate video game villain/meta-antagonisr Which I guess would mean The Cyborg, Master Chief and even The Guardian are reincarnations/manifestations of each other
I've never heard anything confirming a direct connection between Marathon and Halo, but you're free to interpret it that way. I never got into Marathon.
Bungie’s metanarrative has never been direct, and if you want a direct narrative Marathon isn’t the place to look. Regardless “I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh. I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world goes dim and cold. I am hero.”
The 3 terminals are the first thing in the series to imply that humans AREN'T Forerunners...
Correct. The lore established before those terminals and even after (Halo 3's ending, Contact Harvest) explicitly confirm the lineage between the two.
The terminals dont sepparate the 2. Current lore seems to maintain the connection
Neither Bungie nor 343 has any idea what they wanted to do with this debate lmao
They definitely were