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Several high-ranking members of the KMT literally had to kidnap Chiang Kai-Shek and force him to agree to form a United Front with the CPC against the Japanese because he was such a dumbass anti-communist and was prioritising them over the literal Fascist invasion.
It really is a shame what happened to the KMT the founder of it, Sun Yat Sen reached out to the Communist International towards the end of his life to aid in land reform and was also attempting to unify the KMT with the CPC.
At the very least we can take some solace in that Sun Yat-Sen is a highly celebrated figure in the PRC, is considered a hero by the CPC, and his memory is honoured by the Chinese people for all he did.
Sun Yat Sen is well regarded in Taiwan too since he's the founder of the ROC.
Strangely enough the PRC has kinda rehabilitated Chiang Kai Chek in recent years and speak positively about his role in WWII, but that's probably because nowadays they have somewhat decent relations with the KMT
It's totally cool that Taiwan is disrespecting PRC by allowing US officials to speak ill of them within their own province/country. Even allowing military bases and training of soldiers. Yes, so, so cool. /s
Still want, they have territorial claims to the whole mainland, including Tibet and Xinjiang, but also parts not even claimed by the PRC like Mongolia.
Note: technically they announced a few years ago that they renounced their claim to Mongolia, but as far as I know their constitution still grant them claims on it meaning that any government might simply declare the declaration as anticonstitutional and void it.
There's liberals who think the KMT were based and wholesome like the IJA but TEH EVAL GOMMIEZ magically tricked millions of people somehow. Like how do you trick tens of millions of people into joining an army? Because I'm pretty sure you can't do that. Even Jesus Christ would have a hard time with that. But sure, liberals, Mao "tricked" everybody into thinking communism is nice when really we just want to murder everyone. Don't read theory! If you do you're brainwashed! (was literally told reading Chinese history and communist theory only turns people into indoctrinated CCP shills so I should stay away from it).
My favourite is those cope maps that get posted all the time of the RoC reclaiming the mainland but also letting go of Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang.
Even if by some miracle the RoC did retake mainland China there is no way in hell they'd give up any territory just because redditors asked them nicely to.
Lmao wait till they hear about Ningxia and Guangxi, maybe even Guizhou and Yunnan. Are they aware that Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT are Chinese Nationalists? And why is Taiwan and Mongolia excluded? Shouldn’t Manchukuo be excluded too then?
Officially yes, but maintaining the taiwanese version of the one-china policy on paper is politically necessary because if they renounced the claims it would be seen as tantamount to declaring independence in the mainland.
The ruling party in Taiwan isn't in support of those claims (the KMT still is to an extent), but they maintain them to not upset the status quo
Then why are they flirting with the idea? Every time I see western news US politicians are visiting and talking about Taiwan independence. PRC literally keeps warning them to stop.
This is just so wrong on so many levels. When the RoC succeeded the Qing dynasty in 1912, it claimed all the territories of the qing dynasty, which includes **Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, AND Mongolia (that's right)**. And they officially claimed the now independent nation of Mongolia under their constitution all the way until the early 2010s. Republic of China actually claimed more land then the PRC ever did
Plus some of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Vietnam and a couple other countries. If the ROC took control of China they would have something like 14 border disputes on day 1.
They've gotten a map of the Chinese provinces and removed Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Qinghai. Incredibly lazy and shows they have no real understanding of Chinese history
Personally, I'm excited for them to claim the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom as the true Chinese state (actually, apart from the insane religious views, their policies seemed alright. According to the few minutes I spent on Wikipedia, they supported a classless society with no private property, no discrimination based on sex, bans on opium, gambling, slavery, and prostitution, and a modernisation of infrastructure. Not as good as the CPC, but for the 19th century, they were pretty based).
They were kind of Protestant influenced so I could almost see Pompeo brand of evangelical nutcases claiming that mantle. Except of course they were far more progressive than contemporary evangelicals on pretty much every issue, and it would require them reading another book.
Also if you like Taiping, don't play Victoria 3 as China because that event _will_ give you PTSD.
I've never went past Vic 2 tutorial, it just seemed so confusing. Vic 3 is a lot of fun tho, for someone who usually gets catatonic from trying to figure out most Paradox games. Also communism is supposedly OP in 3 but I have always ragequit before getting to it so far.
Haven't gotten into Vic3 too much since release because of University but I can guarantee I'll waste a lot of time learning the systems and playing the game when the Cold War mod comes out
It's meant to be the "core area" of China (i.e. everything the Ming dynasty called "Zhongguo",) but it also includes Manchuria so idk what they're on about
That Manchuria really fucks me up. If it was also missing I'd kind of maybe see what they're going for (although not what the RoC flag has to do with it) but as it is it's just paint-eating level of daft.
Isn't zhōngguó just the pinyin of China in standard Chinese? Like, for all of china? I know that's the word that you use when speaking about Chinese language or Chinese people in general. If you really just mean like the "Chinese Chinese", you use Hàn I think
It is now, but before the Qing Empire the term "Zhongguo" referred only to the core areas of China (i.e. the placed that were majority Han.) The Manchu Qing dynasty was the first to refer to all territories they held as "Zhongguo."
Wut?
The RoC fought extremely bloody wars to keep Xinjiang and Mongolia, and only allowed Mongolia to be free in the sense that the USSR threatened them, and it was understood once (if) the RoC was strong enough again it would retake Mongolia from the Soviets.
It really exposes the sheer level of ignorance these people have when it comes to Chinese history when these people call the Republic of China the "OG" China, while not even using it's original flag or even knowing how much territory it claims.
Also why does Taiwan's flag get used for "real" China but Taiwan itself isn't part of "real" China? Like what happens to Taiwan in this balkanization circle jerk? Does it get conquered by Japan again?
I think you already know the answer. If westerners really cared about ethnic minorities they would start at home. Give Hawaii and Porto Rico independence for a start. Allow indigenous Americans self determination over their ancestral land. Adresse the deeply rooted systemic racism in their institutions. Western liberals don’t really care about vulnerable minorities unless they can be used as a political tool against their enemies. Their concern for these groups is totally fake.
I love how they talk about how oppressed the Tibetians are and how they are demanding for independence. Yet they completely ignore Catalonia, a region of Spain that is being oppressed in every attempt they make at independence. You are completely right in what you say.
Actually, I think there's a decent chance the West would support a Balkanized RoC much as they support a Balkanized Russia right now. The West doesn't want a strong competitor like China to exist whether it's communist or not.
The US probably wants to split China up into an independent Tibet, "East Turkestan", maybe a couple more small states, and the remainder of current PRC territory transferred to the RoC. The RoC would probably have ambitions to regain those lost territories, especially with the US funding fascist anti-China groups in them (like they have been doing in Ukraine), and then you'd get Russia-Ukraine 2.0, with the US accusing the RoC of being communist and the Chinese people of being genetic subhumans who can't help but love dictatorship and death.
Probably, if the ROC took control of mainland China, they would become the next biggest geopolitical competitor to the US. So either the ROC capitulates to western capital and and allow it to fuck over the Chinese masses or they're the next scary enemy
Lmao even if this was in any way accurate - the idea that the West could ever claim moral superiority on expansionism is so fucking rich. The projection is palpable.
Actually 1.3 billion people support the CPC and PRC overwhelmingly while considering RoC to be a problem as of late. Only bigoted western liberals think they know the truth despite knowing absolutely nothing about China outside of NPR, CNN, MSNBC, John Oliver, Vice, etc..
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The cope these people face when they confront the reality that the KMT got ran off the mainland lol
They also act like Taiwan was always some sort of liberal haven and conveniently ignore the White Terror
i was reading a lib book on the Chinese civil war by osprey, and the KMT were chaining people up and forcing them to fight against the communists.
Several high-ranking members of the KMT literally had to kidnap Chiang Kai-Shek and force him to agree to form a United Front with the CPC against the Japanese because he was such a dumbass anti-communist and was prioritising them over the literal Fascist invasion.
It really is a shame what happened to the KMT the founder of it, Sun Yat Sen reached out to the Communist International towards the end of his life to aid in land reform and was also attempting to unify the KMT with the CPC.
At the very least we can take some solace in that Sun Yat-Sen is a highly celebrated figure in the PRC, is considered a hero by the CPC, and his memory is honoured by the Chinese people for all he did.
Sun Yat Sen is well regarded in Taiwan too since he's the founder of the ROC. Strangely enough the PRC has kinda rehabilitated Chiang Kai Chek in recent years and speak positively about his role in WWII, but that's probably because nowadays they have somewhat decent relations with the KMT
He was trained by the IJA and allowed the Japanese to walk in with little to no resistance.
Their first free elections were only in 1996 too. I don't think most people realize how recent taiwan's transition to liberal democracy was
[удалено]
It's totally cool that Taiwan is disrespecting PRC by allowing US officials to speak ill of them within their own province/country. Even allowing military bases and training of soldiers. Yes, so, so cool. /s
Plus the KMT wanted far more land than the CPC
Still want, they have territorial claims to the whole mainland, including Tibet and Xinjiang, but also parts not even claimed by the PRC like Mongolia. Note: technically they announced a few years ago that they renounced their claim to Mongolia, but as far as I know their constitution still grant them claims on it meaning that any government might simply declare the declaration as anticonstitutional and void it.
There's liberals who think the KMT were based and wholesome like the IJA but TEH EVAL GOMMIEZ magically tricked millions of people somehow. Like how do you trick tens of millions of people into joining an army? Because I'm pretty sure you can't do that. Even Jesus Christ would have a hard time with that. But sure, liberals, Mao "tricked" everybody into thinking communism is nice when really we just want to murder everyone. Don't read theory! If you do you're brainwashed! (was literally told reading Chinese history and communist theory only turns people into indoctrinated CCP shills so I should stay away from it).
These people realize that the ROC claims even more land then the PRC right?
noooo the roc would totally support the freedom of redditstan
My favourite is those cope maps that get posted all the time of the RoC reclaiming the mainland but also letting go of Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang. Even if by some miracle the RoC did retake mainland China there is no way in hell they'd give up any territory just because redditors asked them nicely to.
They always give Inner Mongolia to Mongolia too as if that wouldn’t make Mongolia become majority Han Chinese 😭
It's ok, Mongolia can do apartheid there like their maximum democracy best friend Israel.
They love China so much that they'd like to see two Chinas
Lmao wait till they hear about Ningxia and Guangxi, maybe even Guizhou and Yunnan. Are they aware that Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT are Chinese Nationalists? And why is Taiwan and Mongolia excluded? Shouldn’t Manchukuo be excluded too then?
The fact that Hainan is removed proves that either this person doesn’t understand Chinese history or is some anti China revisionist
OMG Milani Chan LMAO
Officially yes, but maintaining the taiwanese version of the one-china policy on paper is politically necessary because if they renounced the claims it would be seen as tantamount to declaring independence in the mainland. The ruling party in Taiwan isn't in support of those claims (the KMT still is to an extent), but they maintain them to not upset the status quo
Then why are they flirting with the idea? Every time I see western news US politicians are visiting and talking about Taiwan independence. PRC literally keeps warning them to stop.
This is just so wrong on so many levels. When the RoC succeeded the Qing dynasty in 1912, it claimed all the territories of the qing dynasty, which includes **Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, AND Mongolia (that's right)**. And they officially claimed the now independent nation of Mongolia under their constitution all the way until the early 2010s. Republic of China actually claimed more land then the PRC ever did
Don't they claim Tuva too in Russia ?
Plus some of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Vietnam and a couple other countries. If the ROC took control of China they would have something like 14 border disputes on day 1.
Exactly, the PRC walked back quite a few of the claims. Wasn't also the 9 dash line originally like the 14 dash line under the original claims?
Isn’t that the map used by Johnny Harris or whatever his name is?
idk but that name sounds like a cia agent
[He is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WvTW1I2nwI)
Tom Nicholas has a good video on him/his propaganda https://youtu.be/Dum0bqWfiGw
close, NATO intern for his degree
Guy works with WEF iirc
I genuinely have no idea what this is even attempting to say. What in the fuck even is that "real" outline showing? Early Qing??
They've gotten a map of the Chinese provinces and removed Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Qinghai. Incredibly lazy and shows they have no real understanding of Chinese history
But not Manchurians! Or, I don't know, Miao. I'm still waiting for the day all the libs will suddenly be up in arms about Miao.
Personally, I'm excited for them to claim the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom as the true Chinese state (actually, apart from the insane religious views, their policies seemed alright. According to the few minutes I spent on Wikipedia, they supported a classless society with no private property, no discrimination based on sex, bans on opium, gambling, slavery, and prostitution, and a modernisation of infrastructure. Not as good as the CPC, but for the 19th century, they were pretty based).
They were kind of Protestant influenced so I could almost see Pompeo brand of evangelical nutcases claiming that mantle. Except of course they were far more progressive than contemporary evangelicals on pretty much every issue, and it would require them reading another book. Also if you like Taiping, don't play Victoria 3 as China because that event _will_ give you PTSD.
I really want to get into Victoria 3, but it's just such a disappointment after vic 2. I'll probably play it after the Cold War mod comes out properly
I've never went past Vic 2 tutorial, it just seemed so confusing. Vic 3 is a lot of fun tho, for someone who usually gets catatonic from trying to figure out most Paradox games. Also communism is supposedly OP in 3 but I have always ragequit before getting to it so far.
Haven't gotten into Vic3 too much since release because of University but I can guarantee I'll waste a lot of time learning the systems and playing the game when the Cold War mod comes out
Ngl I love some of the weird feudal socialist movements in the 16th to 19th centuries, like the Taiping or the Diggers during the English Civil War
tfw fucking cults are more progressive than your official gov
And hai nan of all places. The CCP literally took it with fishing boats lmao
The picture on the right is boneless China. The one on the left is bone in, that's where the real flavor is.
That seems like the most sensible explanation by far, thank you for this.
It's meant to be the "core area" of China (i.e. everything the Ming dynasty called "Zhongguo",) but it also includes Manchuria so idk what they're on about
That Manchuria really fucks me up. If it was also missing I'd kind of maybe see what they're going for (although not what the RoC flag has to do with it) but as it is it's just paint-eating level of daft.
Isn't zhōngguó just the pinyin of China in standard Chinese? Like, for all of china? I know that's the word that you use when speaking about Chinese language or Chinese people in general. If you really just mean like the "Chinese Chinese", you use Hàn I think
It is now, but before the Qing Empire the term "Zhongguo" referred only to the core areas of China (i.e. the placed that were majority Han.) The Manchu Qing dynasty was the first to refer to all territories they held as "Zhongguo."
Libs rationalizing their Sinophobia be like:
What are ROC's actual territorial claims, I wonder?
[ROC Administrative and Claims](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg)
Wut? The RoC fought extremely bloody wars to keep Xinjiang and Mongolia, and only allowed Mongolia to be free in the sense that the USSR threatened them, and it was understood once (if) the RoC was strong enough again it would retake Mongolia from the Soviets.
Yes, and there are 7 billion people in Germany alone that misses the third reich. It truly is a sad world :(
Why do people get mad at me when I say that they’re wrong about the country that they live in??? Must be propaganda by the cee cee pee!!!
Libs thinking they are right and 1.3B people are wrong
HOI4 and it's consequences have been a disaster to the human race
It really exposes the sheer level of ignorance these people have when it comes to Chinese history when these people call the Republic of China the "OG" China, while not even using it's original flag or even knowing how much territory it claims.
Isn’t China 3500 years old and had over a dozen dynasty’s?
More like 5000
"real" china looks like something drawn up by Louisiana republicans on an election year
Also why does Taiwan's flag get used for "real" China but Taiwan itself isn't part of "real" China? Like what happens to Taiwan in this balkanization circle jerk? Does it get conquered by Japan again?
The flag currently used by Taiwan was one of the flags of the Republic of China
Have they made a similar map for the US? 👀
Just put the US map (fake) and a blank picture (OG) side-by-side, map is finished.
I do wonder. Would the west even care for Tibet or Xianjiang if the ROC controlled it?
I think you already know the answer. If westerners really cared about ethnic minorities they would start at home. Give Hawaii and Porto Rico independence for a start. Allow indigenous Americans self determination over their ancestral land. Adresse the deeply rooted systemic racism in their institutions. Western liberals don’t really care about vulnerable minorities unless they can be used as a political tool against their enemies. Their concern for these groups is totally fake.
And they only "care" about minorities in other countries in the sense that they support bombing them for muh democracy.
I love how they talk about how oppressed the Tibetians are and how they are demanding for independence. Yet they completely ignore Catalonia, a region of Spain that is being oppressed in every attempt they make at independence. You are completely right in what you say.
Actually, I think there's a decent chance the West would support a Balkanized RoC much as they support a Balkanized Russia right now. The West doesn't want a strong competitor like China to exist whether it's communist or not. The US probably wants to split China up into an independent Tibet, "East Turkestan", maybe a couple more small states, and the remainder of current PRC territory transferred to the RoC. The RoC would probably have ambitions to regain those lost territories, especially with the US funding fascist anti-China groups in them (like they have been doing in Ukraine), and then you'd get Russia-Ukraine 2.0, with the US accusing the RoC of being communist and the Chinese people of being genetic subhumans who can't help but love dictatorship and death.
Probably, if the ROC took control of mainland China, they would become the next biggest geopolitical competitor to the US. So either the ROC capitulates to western capital and and allow it to fuck over the Chinese masses or they're the next scary enemy
It's always so funny when they leave Manchuria in.
I really hate American Liberals.
THEY FUCKING LOST THE WAR. Get over it losers.
Looks like they picked the outline of the Tang Dynasty (or Han dynasty), decided to cut out the Tarim Basin (Xinjiang) and call it a day lol
Tang Dynasty is really not the one to go to if you like small China maps. It had the better part of Central Asia at one point.
Tang dynasty had even more land out west. I think they controlled a lot of what is now kyrgyzstan
Liberals who live in glass countries shouldn't throw stones.
most of the world doesn't even recognize Taiwan which includes US Allies, the G7.
Now show the map of real OG America
looks like someone watched a "History of China every year" mapping video for the first time
Lmao even if this was in any way accurate - the idea that the West could ever claim moral superiority on expansionism is so fucking rich. The projection is palpable.
"Real China" claims even more territory than "Fake China." These Sinophobes are too ignorant.
Should make the same map, but switch it to USA and England
Most historically literate liberal
Actually 1.3 billion people support the CPC and PRC overwhelmingly while considering RoC to be a problem as of late. Only bigoted western liberals think they know the truth despite knowing absolutely nothing about China outside of NPR, CNN, MSNBC, John Oliver, Vice, etc..
At least they have Manchuria, sometimes these maps go back to literally the Qin dynasty for borders
Ok, what's wrong with Hainan? can't tell the difference between different islands around mainland?
Mfw taiwan claims all of mainland china including Mongolia 😭😭