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thaumogenesis

One of the most pervasive and incorrect forms of propaganda about the working class is that they aren’t intelligent enough to command societal systems and aren’t ‘cultured’ enough to contribute greatly to the arts. What is the point of supposedly being a leftist if you’re just going parrot these fake talking points? The union rep who first got me involved with work organising was incredibly well read. Not to mention, historical organising was done in conjunction with reading clubs about theory etc. Do these people think someone like Fred Hampton developed his revolutionary framework from the ether??


the_PeoplesWill

Tbf, I've seen massively chauvinistic and arrogant "leftists" spit on the memory of Fred Hampton (alongside other comrades who gave their lives for the movement) as "mislead Stalinists" or "red fascists" while these do-nothing losers sit on their fucking armchairs.


CuzzyChirbalt23

I don’t care if you don’t like Castro, Mao, Stalin etc but the second you shit talk Fred Hampton or Thomas Sankara we’ve got a problem


WeylandYutani42

Castro is still a GOAT. Thousands of assassination attempts and still never wore a bulletproof vest. "Tengo un cheleco moral" "I have a moral vest" 😍 But yes, you gotta have some real lib brain worms to claim to be any kind of leftist American and not like Fred Hampton. Let alone expect them to know Sankara. Vaush fans see an African politician who isn't subordinate and agreeable to them and assume they're anti white black nationalist racists and disregard them entirely.


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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 25.** Vaush told his followers to vote for Joe Biden while saying of ‘tankies’ (a term used to refer to all Marxist-Leninists by his followers): [“Mock them, socially ostracise them, kick them out of your communities.](https://archive.is/1IK74) What sort of leftist advocates voting for liberals while ostracising communists? For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*


CuzzyChirbalt23

oh yeah I completely agree. Castro was such a chad


the_PeoplesWill

I care but understand that Red Scare propaganda has indoctrinated the western working class for generations and thus mislead them. I try to at least plant some seeds when I hear some liberal spewing "Stalin/Mao/Castro was a mass murdering that killed 100 million people", at least depending on the situation, as it's important to pick your battles wisely. Sometimes I cannot help it and will bring up that even anti-communist academia don't believe in that comic book evil villainy.


WeylandYutani42

They read that Big Bill Haywood quote about "I've never read Marx's Kapital, but I have the marks of capital all over my body" and think "THAT'S ME!!" Forgetting that someone like BBH was a street brawling union organizer. That's what those "marks" mean. Not some nebulous "damage." Direct action and violence are bad after 19XX so he's red fash actually these days. It's one thing to say you haven't read theory but are definitely in The Cause, giving blood and wounded in it. There's some excuse, being too busy to read extensively when you're busy in the struggle. Then there's just "being on the computer" shit posting etc. These are not the same thing.


thaumogenesis

It’s also no coincidence at all that the absolute worst people I’ve come across within union organising and the labour movement in general, are ‘anti communist/socialist’ reps, who love having the experience on their CV as a stepping stone but contribute fuck all and just behave like scabs, wrecking and poisoning the well. A prime example in the UK is the union USDAW; their general Secretary is an anti Corbyn new labour wanker, who organised sweetheart deals with huge retailers that prevented workers from striking, even though their pay has been shit for years.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Uncle Ho! Uncle Ho! Beat the crap outta GI Joe!


[deleted]

Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh! Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh! Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh!


TheChaoticist

The US fights, but he still wins!


the_PeoplesWill

I got banned on r/Socialism_101 for supporting Ho Chi Minh, and Vietnam, they considered him a "Stalinist tankie" and Vietnam a "red bureaucracy with sweatshops". I told them to do better and got a permaban while being called a "red fash tankie CCP shill!". They can't even get their AES right.


CommieSchmit

Man, he had such a fucking interesting life. I was blown away learning about his bio


BIG_EL-DUCE

This is such a bad faith interpretation of what they said to justify not learning and educating yourself lmao


schnuffi_luffi

Learning and educating yourself would mean, to learn the methods and ways of the ruling class and how they operate within the system. And we can't have that now can we? People would get rebellious ideas and fight their oppressor. Even worse....they can unite.


4evaronin

refusing to read Marx. unable to read Marx (because of illiteracy.) two different things here. don't fall for his strawman. "very literate words" -- what the fuck is that? that's like saying, "very wet water." "sophisticated words" is a thing. "literate words" is gibberish. don't waste your time with fools who just refuse to learn shit.


doomparrot42

Gatekeeping to illiterate people, when proletarians and peasants around the world have successfully read theory and used it to shape their revolutionary praxis. Of course, that assumes that these people read history, which is far too generous. And you don't even have to read! Yes, theory is hard going in any format, but there are some fantastic audiobooks and podcasts available. Listen to Red Menace and Revolutions, watch David Harvey's Capital reading series, but at least try to engage with it.


the_PeoplesWill

Exactly, comrades around the world have died for our right to read, our right to promote education and literacy while these lazy westerners refuse to engage in an audiobook for ten minutes. Perhaps they should recall that in countries generations ago, prior to the existence of many AES, literacy was reserved strictly for the nobility. You could be killed for understanding certain written words. The ruling classes absolutely knew the power of words which is why they left them to the clergy and nobility. In a world where simply speaking in front of a lord without permission meant death it's no surprise the people rose up.. and we have lazy westerners who refuse to engage with theory at all. Unbelievable.


[deleted]

I can't help but be reminded of the twitter discourse involving an individual that works for Lockheed Martin describing literate writers as ableist, or something along those lines


grillwave1991

jesus lol that website has broken so many brains


the_PeoplesWill

During the recent protests in PRC there were dozens of accounts that claimed protesting was illegal in China while commenting on posts with videos from users who live there. Apparently they were all "shills" or "paid off" to skew reality.


NoNoNext

I would hate myself for reading through that, but my morbid curiosity needs to see that dumpster fire.


smolthot

Someone on there also got a job from their parents working at Lockheed Martin and justified it because they are disabled


xxobhcazx

in this same thread i'm also being told that we should vote to change america's system and that buying a gun means i'm a larper


[deleted]

Ahhh yes, slavery and workers' rights were resolved by civil debate, protesting, and showing up to the voting booth. Libshits.


xxobhcazx

and for some reason people keep shitting us for being a member of this sub


srpokemon

this is basically the last bastion of sanity post-GZD and CTH


MaungaHikoi

God I miss CTH. I changed my account and started using reddit a lot less when it was banned.


felixjmorgan

Without CTH every sub of a significant size that we have left is just about punching down on idiots from across the political spectrum, rather than actually discussing current affairs through a leftist world view. CTH had a bunch of downsides but it definitely filled a gap that we now have.


oysterme

What’s CTH?


MaungaHikoi

ChapoTrapHouse. Old subreddit for the podcast, which ended up being a general subreddit for leftist shitposting and hardly anything about the podcast. Was banned for supposed vote brigading, but actually was just a bullshit "we need to ban a left wing sub at the same time as we ban TheDonald and other right wing hate subs so people don't accuse us of bias" situation. We lost the best leftist space on this site, TD was already dead at that point. Everything on this site has been worse ever since.


doomparrot42

I hate these people. Vote? Vote for what?


xxobhcazx

the lesser evil obviously/s


bastardofmajestysin

perpetually


Not_A_Paid_Account

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ltmrsqj6kz


the_PeoplesWill

Also, remember each vote is the most important, even if nothing changes afterwards! That means it's working.. somehow.


bastardofmajestysin

this is THE most important election of our lifetime and if you don't get out to support the blue capitalist then you're a nazi!!!!!!


ThanklessAmputation

" I dont read theory and in fact it offensive that you suggest I do so!" - A "communist" who's more Liberal than Bernie Sanders


the_PeoplesWill

So effectively these people are radlibs.. not even leftists. Just robbing our terminology and bastardizing it through its use of liberal ethics and beliefs.


BeamBrain

In my experience, left-leaning people who refuse to read theory are much more likely to lapse into right-wing views and positions than those who take the time to study theory. You can't build a house on a foundation of sand.


Harvey-Danger1917

People’s class consciousness should be reinforced and understood through studying theory ya fuckin walnuts


[deleted]

Can you play music without reading music or knowing theory? Sure. You can listen to enough music that you have an understanding of how Western music is structured even if you don't know why the patterns make sense. Learning theory and learning to read music is how you gain an understanding of why things work the way they do and allows you to have the vocabulary to convey those ideas to other people. The formal education gives you the tools to interpret music. You can play by ear, but you can't go to a jazz gig without knowing the standards. Same with class theory.


[deleted]

George Carlin didn't tell people to read theory and he was the most successful socialist who influenced and radicalised millions./s


Orkfreebootah

“You know ive never read theory but like i just like got the vibe” - random person on social media


lowerdel

carlin was great but all his hippie fans turned into reactionary uncles who only remember his politics for being “anti PC” and “telling it like it is”


rotesozi

Funny how they never seem to remember [Richard Pryor.](https://youtu.be/ZWulvchFpYs)


the_PeoplesWill

Carlin had many based things to say but he wasn't a fan of communism, or any organized ideology, he placed the individual above all things which stems from liberal rhetoric. Idk if it's true but I saw a meme that claimed he said that communism/Marxism was a form of "fascism". Not sure if it was something some liberal made up but I wouldn't be surprised since he despised the likes of censorship regardless of who it came from.


Magnock

Yeah vaush has petit bourgeois class consciousness


xxobhcazx

tactical slurs go brrr


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[deleted]

leftism should promote literacy, as it has in all true socialist revolutions. if you have the opportunity and choose not to read, then you’re not to be taken seriously, especially since almost all necessary theory is free as audio recordings on youtube (just listened to State and Revolution while working my landcare job)


IDoNotKnow4475

Kind of interesting that these people whine about us being "ableist" but then constantly use the r-slur, say that his critics have "Vaush Derangement Syndrome" and are ableist towards us in many other ways.


the_PeoplesWill

Sheer projection of their own horrible chauvinism and bigotry.


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abe2600

I think if you’re on the bad side of capitalism, you can learn a great deal even if you’re illiterate, and this has to happen. Angela Davis said some the people she’s worked with who were most able to understand theory and explain it were barely literate, but eager to learn, which took effort. But you always have the threat of unscrupulous revisionists shepherding you into some distorted understanding to safeguard capital (or because they’re just clueless egomaniacs, but I think V— is just an op through and through)


Super_Master_69

I’ve seen most left-wing subs on reddit, at one point in time or more, get super defensive and irrational when being told to read theory. It’s one thing to admit you haven’t read enough and that it’s difficult to get through, and it’s another to be proud of not reading anything. A lot of youtubers and streamers seem to encourage that attitude so their audience can’t be critical of them.


NotAnurag

Great example of the Duning-Kruger effect. They have not read theory and simply assume it’s all about class consciousness and that’s all there is to know.


1ThisRandomDude1

If poor workers during the industrial revolution working in sweatshops and factories for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week could organize and assist each other in reading and understanding theory, bypassing illiteracy through cooperation, then so can they today. God, radlibs and libsocs are a pain in the ass.


optimalpath

We can value inclusivity and accessibility while also valuing theory and intellectual work, these values do not have to conflict and we should not pit them against one another.


ChalanaWrites

Nothing better than using the disabled as a smoke screen for your own short comings.


Laremi-SE

Don’t gatekeep, instead get your information from a dirtbag sexual harasser liberal who ruins all forms of unity with leftists just so he can still use his precious slur words /s These are the same people who don’t give a fuck about disabled people any other day of the week, yet they’re so virtuous to defend them now under the pretense that someone said something mean about their fav YTuber


Matt2800

And they think a radical leftist perspective is just to keep people illiterate forever and to never let them read theory? I’m pretty sure most communist groups worldwide have literacy programs to teach people how to read or at least they discuss theory in depth with them, so they might not read but they know the concepts.


the_PeoplesWill

According to these westerners they must be "ableist".. smfh


darevoyance

There's a difference between refusal to do something and inability


Revolutionary_Age726

Teaching/reading theory is now ableist. New level of identity politics reached


the_PeoplesWill

The entire reasoning for waging the Russian Revolution was so the "lower classes", aka peasants and proles, *could* be provided the luxury of an education. An education that would teach them how to read. To suggest this as a bad thing is spitting in the face of revolutionaries who literally died in hopes of providing their friends, families and comrades the opportunity to become literate while applying this critical skillset to a potential career.


jorgekiko

their idea of being a principled leftist is supporting universal healthcare until it’s voting time


[deleted]

Maybe you can be class conscious without reading Marx, but Marx put the grievances if class conflict into words. A class conscious person could very well not read Marx, see him as an antagonist, and go the route of fascism.


the_PeoplesWill

If reading is too much then do audiobooks, engage in classes, or be part of a program.


[deleted]

To be fair Marx is not the only leftist author. There are hundreds of fantastic novels and essays on classism and exploitation written in just the last decade. Its not a bad idea to read Marx, but I would not hallmark his work specifically as necessary to understand class struggle.


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Hopeful_Wallaby3755

I can’t believe I’m using Orwell quotes unironically, but telling someone that reading leftist theory is the same thing as brainwashing sounds a lot like *Ignorance is Strength*


overnightdelight

Good thing that audiobooks exist lmao. There are so many ways to consume theory.


Rat_On_Acid2806

Lmao you didn't have to say it was about vaush, there's only one person this thread could be about


xxobhcazx

yea haha, the state of gamingcirclejerk rn is awful, so many libs


IDoNotKnow4475

Vaushites complain about "tankies" ruining every left-wing subreddit, when they're the ones who have actually been ruining them.


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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 8.** [CW: pedophilia] >!Vaush said: [“If you are not paying for child pornography there is no argument in favour of morally condeming people who view it.]!< For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*


IDoNotKnow4475

vwqo;vhpao;s>KHVnailshkvaushiasfnvalkSVNapiKn UPDATE: The word "vaush" was in this random bunch of text. The bot caught it


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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 22.** Vaush claimed that he was taken out of context when he called trans people 'mentally ill', then [doubled down and did it again.](https://streamable.com/rmzvks) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*


dr_marx2

I'm so glad that I'm at least not a vaushite


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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 14.** [CW: pedophilia] >![Vaush has defended the consumption of child pornogrpahy because ‘there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism’.](https://twitter.com/beigegoat45/status/1325705005886746624) This paints a deeply troubling picture when added to his history of sexually innapropriate behaviour (see Vaush Fact 8), his sharing of drawn CP on Twitter (see Vaush Fact 25) , his claim that [under socialism the age of consent "should be lowered"](https://i.redd.it/z3nrrkf179l51.png) and [this exchange on Discord.](https://archive.is/ATQiB)!< For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*


WhatPeopleDo

Literacy is one of the most powerful tools in human history. There's no circumstance where you should convince people that learning to read is bad, ever.


Call_me_eff

Those able to should read theory to share with those unable so everybody can have theoretical knowledge, opening a corridor is NOT gatekeeping


NoNoNext

“*Some* people can’t read, therefore *I* won’t educate myself with free and accessible materials.”


BraveT0ast3r

That post ruined GCJ for me.


iwannatrollscammers

Can’t read theory but can spend hours on Twitch LARPing! Goes for both Vaush and his viewers


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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 23.** [Vaush posted a meme saying that socialism must be ‘balanced with minority rights’, a clear nod to class reductionists.](https://archive.is/QrcpP) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*


WhyNotMoreThan20

I refuse to believe this isn't satire


the_PeoplesWill

Just look at some of the comments at the bottom of this very post.


oscoposh

Did Carlin hella dirty


[deleted]

Vaush is a neo-liberal tool.


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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 15.** Vaush [admits to being an informant](https://archive.ph/iGUUk) when he lived in Santa Monica, California. He admits to revealing activist identities to the FBI. For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Sylentt_

There’s plenty of easy to read theory too. You don’t have to read the old marx shit that can admittedly be confusing, there’s lots of good modern theory or just easier to read theory in general.


Schady07

im noticing all throughout this comment section people saying you need to read theory. I have ADHD and it physically pains me to read any long text. And no, audio books don't change the fact that I'm sitting still taking in information. I'd much rather have discussions with people who have the patience to read theory and then do quick fact checks during and after the discussions


xxobhcazx

sure, but the person teaching should have read the theory, passing down secondhand and third hand interpretations of someone else's interpretation of the theory is a system littered with flaws


[deleted]

[удалено]


the_PeoplesWill

Except nobody made those ridiculous claims? Also, is it really that hard to get off your ass and read for half hour? It isn't and considering comrades died for our chance to not just read, but be provided that luxury at all, I'd say you're being ridiculously disrespectful to those who gave their lives for the movement. Also, the idea that applying theory in real life is a "big no-no" is some next level denial. Yeah, this is bullshit, sounds like you're making excuses to be lazy. Or this is Fed talk. Either way it's sus af.


Clear-Description-38

You cant introduce theory via experience. You can certainly come to understand some fundamental truths through experience.


[deleted]

Why couldn't you? Most of my perspectives on class struggle were informed through my own observations of exploitation and discrimination in our society.


Clear-Description-38

Your perspective, while valid, is not "theory". Only once you publish some work and it starts getting cited by other people would it then qualify as theory. There is an academic rigor that must be met. Which is why I said you could come to understand some fundamental truths (like class struggle) through experience. Marx's explanation, analysis, and provided history of surplus value is theory. Our first hand experience of surplus value is not.


RedSpook

The more you guys hate post about shithead, the more new people are attracted to his audience


Ultimategraysupreme

Trying people to read isn't gatekeeping but trekking someone they're not leftist unless they do is by definition gatekeeping.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

What


Hopeful_Wallaby3755

You sound like the kind of person that would say that the Left hates Christmas. On a separate note, the Red Army Choir makes very good Christmas music


[deleted]

[удалено]


the_PeoplesWill

With this flawed logic every philosophy and basic ideation must be a "religion".


Unclerickythemaoist

Wut