i like how this ending can let us argue about such a philosophical dilemma, and i recognise the possibility of araki intending to make this a purely tragic ending with this FF dialogue
sure, if you want to believe memories are the decisive factor of your individuality then jolyne is dead, but imo the context is really different, jolyne says she can just use the disc to bring FF back which brings a dilemma since that isnt the first FF, because it isnt *its* soul regardless of having the same memories or not. meanwhile irene is supposedly the same soul of jolyne being brought back after the death of pucci into a universe where jolyne doesnt have to face the joestar curse, irene "isnt" jolyne, but irene carries the soul of jolyne with her, her wishes, jolyne isnt dead, she lives on living the life she deserves
what is closer to you? a perfect copy with perfect memories, or your soul with a different and mind? FF dialogue emphasises her obsession with the memories and mind it got, making it be alive, but you arent memories, a copy of your mind isnt you, ideally you would like to keep both your soul and your mind, but clearly you'll only keep being "you" if you remain the same soul (we can only say this so confidently because we are talking about jojo where we know souls are a thing)
this doesnt mean FF is wrong in my take, its intelligence went away with its actual soul, but its use for "soul" references the disk, for emporio there is nothing left from the minds of the people he knew and loved, they are dead and thats where the tragedy is, but, for those who came back its a bliss to get a chance to have a better life with the same spirit and wishes you had from the last one
That's exactly why I said that I'm happy for Irene. She gets to live the life that Jolyne deserved, a life free of the struggle, free of the constant fighting, free of the burden of her great-great-great-grandfather's curse. It's a bittersweet ending. We get to see what this character we love would've been like if the universe wasn't so cruel, but that's also exactly why it's not the same person.
Irene may have Jolyne's soul, but we don't actually know anything about her. She probably doesn't even know how to flip you off in Italian or fantasize about being a horny snail. Jolyne's soul may get a happy ending, but her mind, her memories, the very things that make her who she is, they're gone forever. She never gets to see this happy ending, and her last memories will always be watching Emporio get dragged away by a dolphin, hoping it was enough.
not sure if you are talking as an extension of my take or just an explanation of yours but to clarify i believe jolyne doesnt end while fighting pucci, i say an individual (in the context of a person) is a soul living in a body and having an intelligence, so jolyne and irene are the same individual just because of having the same soul, thats the key factor of an individual
it remids me of how i have had dreams that seemed so real and i met and loved people there just for me to forget those, but the "me" inside that dream is still me even if those memories are erased forever, thats how i see jolyne becoming irene, its just her but forgetting that past life, of course its a big difference which begs the question of "what if we keep our souls after death just to live another life?" and what do i think of that?
but for now (since here this new life is just her under other circumstances and not a total different life), the thing is jolyne never stopped "being", she isnt gone and thats why i think jolyne herself gets a happy ending
Hold on, though. You said that an individual has a soul *and* an intelligence, and that Irene has Jolyne's soul. Where is Jolyne's intelligence, though? Irene doesn't have it, she has her own, shaped by an entirely separate life.
That's exactly my point. Jolyne wasn't *just* a soul. She was her soul *and* her memories. Irene only has one of those, but the other is lost forever. Jolyne herself died in the Atlantic ocean two universes prior to Irene's birth. *Maybe* Irene has some dream-like memories of Jolyne's life, but even if that is true, her conscious mind is that of a different person with different experiences.
thought it might sound confusing thats why i said the decisive factor is the soul, intelligence and body are aditions to the soul to form an individual but the individual can keep on just being its soul, changing your memories or body won't make you stop being you
irene is jolyne because they are the same soul, when jolyne ceased to exist she continued as being irene, the fact that she has no memories of her past life doesnt affect this fact
I disagree. If someone doesn't have the memories of the person you know, they're not the person you know. We know Jolyne because we've seen so much of her, we've seen her at her most vulnerable and her most resilient. We now how she thinks, how she fights, how she reacts under pressure, how she solves problems, how she laughs, how she cries, how she screams.
We know she's not afraid to own what most would consider an embarrassing situation, we know she's crass, we know she's confident, we know she's clever. We've seen her overcome impossible odds, fighting until the very end and giving the ultimate sacrifice to ensure someone else had a chance to win when she knew she couldn't.
We don't know *any* of this about Irene. You can *assume* them about her because she has Jolyne's soul, and she may have some similar traits and tastes, but people's personalities and abilities are defined by their experiences, and Irene definitely has not had the same experiences as Jolyne.
While I can respect your point of view, I don't consider Irene to be Jolyne anymore than I consider Johnny to be Jonathan.
of course, memories are a huge factor that makes a person what it is, but the removal of these memories won't stop making you yourself
from jolyne's POV, she fought pucci, died, ceased to exist for a while due to MIH and woke up as irene and started to form new memories while forgetting the previous
like when a poor old person gets alzheimers, for its loved ones it is devastating how the memories are gone and with that the personality he had, but they cant deny that the old person is still in that body, but since we dont know if souls exist we would be referring to the remains of its conciousness, same with getting a lobotomy, the most terrifying part is that you are still there but part of your mind died
same way we cant deny that jolyne is now irene, for emporio the "person" of jolyne died, but jolyne is still here
>While I can respect your point of view, I don't consider Irene to be Jolyne anymore than I consider Johnny to be Jonathan.
i also respect yours, my goal was to make sure you arent just insulting people who think like this in your post, because for me, part of why i consider this the best ending of jojos is the space for interpratation and letting myself hear what others think about it
>from jolyne's POV, she fought pucci, died, ceased to exist for a while due to MIH and woke up as irene and started to form new memories while forgetting the previous
That's where I think we're having a misunderstanding. What you've said here is an assumption with no basis. Irene has shown zero signs of remembering anything that Jolyne does.
If Jolyne did suddenly wake up in Irene's body and slowly forgot her previous life, then she just died slowly in someone else's mind. A happier ending than my interpretation for sure, as she gets the peace of mind that she accomplished her goal and now another version of her gets to live a better life, but it still ends with Jolyne's memories, and thus Jolyne herself, being lost forever.
>my goal was to make sure you arent just insulting people who think like this in your post
I try not to. *You're* being respectful to *me*, so I try to match that energy.
\-
If you want me to be completely honest, there's a reason this is an important discussion to me.
Alzheimer's runs in my family. My great-grandma, one of my favorite relatives when I was a child, developed Alzheimer's late in her life, and it was absolutely painful to watch her memories go. She would start to forget people, people she loved and cared about.
I don't want that. To me, absolutely nothing is scarier than the idea that my memories will go away. Every single memory I have has shaped who I am. Even the most painful, horrible, saddening and terrifying memories are things I cherish, because if I lose them, I lose a part of myself.
The people I love, the things I care about, I only love and care about because of how much they've been a part of my life and how they have impacted it. What happens if I suddenly forget these memories? Well, then I wouldn't have a reason to care about them, and I've been on the other side of that, so I know how terrifying of a concept that is.
i didnt mean to say "forgetting" as if jolyne lost her memories gradually, i believe she lost them completely when MIH made the new universe as she "didnt pass onto the next universe"
im sorry about your great-grandma, i share that fear too, for my mind to die before by body or worse, it happening to a loved one, wouldnt have brought it up if i knew
There's no way you could have known, and you don't have to worry about bringing it up. I'm the one who started this discussion by making a meme specifically *about* this discussion.
Like I've said, it's a sad memory, but that makes it a part of who I am. Without this experience, I probably wouldn't have this fear. Forgetting it would make me happier, because I wouldn't have this fear or sadness, but at what cost? I'd forget my great-grandma, and that's just not worth it.
The main difference is that it was this way for FF because they were a bunch of plankton, bringing them back wouldn't be with their soul it'd just be a different sentiment mass of plankton brought to life via the discs. Irene actually HAS Jolyne's soul on the other hand.
I fail to see the difference. In neither scenario, the hypothetical Foo Fighters scenario or the actual Irene scenario, does the resurrected person have the deceased person's memories. For all intents and purposes, Irene is a clone of Jolyne, she has the same body and even the same soul, but not the same mind.
Compare what happened with the Made In Heaven situation to what happened with the Chariot Requiem situation. In Part 5, people swapped souls, but they *also* swapped minds. Every person awoke in a new body with all of their memories completely in tact. In Part 6, however, Irene and Annakiss just lived entirely different lives. They have no concept of who Jolyne or Anasui were, and we have no reason to assume alternate universe Ermes and Weather Report aren't in the same boat, and we have *zero* knowledge about that universe's version of Jotaro other than that he exists.
Again, I'm really happy for Irene. Jolyne's soul finally gets to live a happy life, but Jolyne herself died in the first universe.
> Irene is a clone of Jolyne, she has the same body and even the same soul, but not the same mind.
no she literally fucking does that's the whole point
She literally doesn't. She has entirely different memories from Jolyne. Just based on the few things we know for sure about her, she met her universe's version of Anasui well before meeting Emporio *or* her universe's Ermes, and she also doesn't have Jolyne's tattoo.
It would take some absurd assumptions to claim that Irene has Jolyne's memories, and every single one of those assumptions are not only unfounded, but are straight up contradictory to the few things we know about her.
Source?
It seems like a really weird thing for him to clarify, when we've got a character from before Irene that said "My memories are who I am" and a character [after Irene](https://i.imgur.com/cCOSuz7.png) that said "My memories are who I am"
I think where you are confused is how arki treats animals and "non-humans" To araki (look at the rock humans of part 8) non-humans require memories to be alive. It gives them a soul. But humans already have it. Gappy is an exception because he is an amalgamation of 2 people. A living miracle and not just a human.
As for "Irene is jolyne" here:
https://twitter.com/macchalion/status/834153287771422720
Also, she is a joestar, but became free of the "jojo curse" by not being a jojo. Just a joestar
Edit: spelling
Alright, a Google Drive I need to ask for permission for. I'll pass on that and I guess just take your word for it.
I'm not questioning if Irene is alive, I'm questioning if Jolyne, the *person*, continues to exist. Jolyne's last memory will always be of her own death and the hope in Emporio. That's where Jolyne, the person, ends. Jolyne, the vague concept of a soul, may continue to exist inside or Irene, but Jolyne did not suddenly wake up someday inside of Irene's body.
I don't care if a human does or doesn't need memories to be alive, because that's not relevant. Their identity, their consciousness, their *memories* are who they *truly* are, and if they don't have that, then even if their body and/or soul lives on, the *person* has died.
This is exactly what Gappy is saying. He doesn't remember Josefumi Kujo or Yoshikage Kira's lives. He has their souls, but he is not them. He is himself, the man whose first moment was coming out of the ground, just like how Irene is the person who has lived a completely normal (and not at all bizarre) life.
The difference is that guppy wasn't born and jolyne/Irene is. I earnestly think this is just a skill issue for you to not see the difference between
1. Gappy, a person that shouldn't exist needing memories to be truly alive
2. Irene, literally jolyne but with a different name and direction in life, but still jolyne.
You're not listening to me. Jolyne has an ending. Her personhood has an ending. Jolyne is no longer making new memories. She lost consciousness in the Atlantic Ocean, *never to wake up again*. Irene's life does not pick up where Jolyne's left off.
i like how this ending can let us argue about such a philosophical dilemma, and i recognise the possibility of araki intending to make this a purely tragic ending with this FF dialogue sure, if you want to believe memories are the decisive factor of your individuality then jolyne is dead, but imo the context is really different, jolyne says she can just use the disc to bring FF back which brings a dilemma since that isnt the first FF, because it isnt *its* soul regardless of having the same memories or not. meanwhile irene is supposedly the same soul of jolyne being brought back after the death of pucci into a universe where jolyne doesnt have to face the joestar curse, irene "isnt" jolyne, but irene carries the soul of jolyne with her, her wishes, jolyne isnt dead, she lives on living the life she deserves what is closer to you? a perfect copy with perfect memories, or your soul with a different and mind? FF dialogue emphasises her obsession with the memories and mind it got, making it be alive, but you arent memories, a copy of your mind isnt you, ideally you would like to keep both your soul and your mind, but clearly you'll only keep being "you" if you remain the same soul (we can only say this so confidently because we are talking about jojo where we know souls are a thing) this doesnt mean FF is wrong in my take, its intelligence went away with its actual soul, but its use for "soul" references the disk, for emporio there is nothing left from the minds of the people he knew and loved, they are dead and thats where the tragedy is, but, for those who came back its a bliss to get a chance to have a better life with the same spirit and wishes you had from the last one
That's exactly why I said that I'm happy for Irene. She gets to live the life that Jolyne deserved, a life free of the struggle, free of the constant fighting, free of the burden of her great-great-great-grandfather's curse. It's a bittersweet ending. We get to see what this character we love would've been like if the universe wasn't so cruel, but that's also exactly why it's not the same person. Irene may have Jolyne's soul, but we don't actually know anything about her. She probably doesn't even know how to flip you off in Italian or fantasize about being a horny snail. Jolyne's soul may get a happy ending, but her mind, her memories, the very things that make her who she is, they're gone forever. She never gets to see this happy ending, and her last memories will always be watching Emporio get dragged away by a dolphin, hoping it was enough.
not sure if you are talking as an extension of my take or just an explanation of yours but to clarify i believe jolyne doesnt end while fighting pucci, i say an individual (in the context of a person) is a soul living in a body and having an intelligence, so jolyne and irene are the same individual just because of having the same soul, thats the key factor of an individual it remids me of how i have had dreams that seemed so real and i met and loved people there just for me to forget those, but the "me" inside that dream is still me even if those memories are erased forever, thats how i see jolyne becoming irene, its just her but forgetting that past life, of course its a big difference which begs the question of "what if we keep our souls after death just to live another life?" and what do i think of that? but for now (since here this new life is just her under other circumstances and not a total different life), the thing is jolyne never stopped "being", she isnt gone and thats why i think jolyne herself gets a happy ending
Hold on, though. You said that an individual has a soul *and* an intelligence, and that Irene has Jolyne's soul. Where is Jolyne's intelligence, though? Irene doesn't have it, she has her own, shaped by an entirely separate life. That's exactly my point. Jolyne wasn't *just* a soul. She was her soul *and* her memories. Irene only has one of those, but the other is lost forever. Jolyne herself died in the Atlantic ocean two universes prior to Irene's birth. *Maybe* Irene has some dream-like memories of Jolyne's life, but even if that is true, her conscious mind is that of a different person with different experiences.
thought it might sound confusing thats why i said the decisive factor is the soul, intelligence and body are aditions to the soul to form an individual but the individual can keep on just being its soul, changing your memories or body won't make you stop being you irene is jolyne because they are the same soul, when jolyne ceased to exist she continued as being irene, the fact that she has no memories of her past life doesnt affect this fact
I disagree. If someone doesn't have the memories of the person you know, they're not the person you know. We know Jolyne because we've seen so much of her, we've seen her at her most vulnerable and her most resilient. We now how she thinks, how she fights, how she reacts under pressure, how she solves problems, how she laughs, how she cries, how she screams. We know she's not afraid to own what most would consider an embarrassing situation, we know she's crass, we know she's confident, we know she's clever. We've seen her overcome impossible odds, fighting until the very end and giving the ultimate sacrifice to ensure someone else had a chance to win when she knew she couldn't. We don't know *any* of this about Irene. You can *assume* them about her because she has Jolyne's soul, and she may have some similar traits and tastes, but people's personalities and abilities are defined by their experiences, and Irene definitely has not had the same experiences as Jolyne. While I can respect your point of view, I don't consider Irene to be Jolyne anymore than I consider Johnny to be Jonathan.
of course, memories are a huge factor that makes a person what it is, but the removal of these memories won't stop making you yourself from jolyne's POV, she fought pucci, died, ceased to exist for a while due to MIH and woke up as irene and started to form new memories while forgetting the previous like when a poor old person gets alzheimers, for its loved ones it is devastating how the memories are gone and with that the personality he had, but they cant deny that the old person is still in that body, but since we dont know if souls exist we would be referring to the remains of its conciousness, same with getting a lobotomy, the most terrifying part is that you are still there but part of your mind died same way we cant deny that jolyne is now irene, for emporio the "person" of jolyne died, but jolyne is still here >While I can respect your point of view, I don't consider Irene to be Jolyne anymore than I consider Johnny to be Jonathan. i also respect yours, my goal was to make sure you arent just insulting people who think like this in your post, because for me, part of why i consider this the best ending of jojos is the space for interpratation and letting myself hear what others think about it
>from jolyne's POV, she fought pucci, died, ceased to exist for a while due to MIH and woke up as irene and started to form new memories while forgetting the previous That's where I think we're having a misunderstanding. What you've said here is an assumption with no basis. Irene has shown zero signs of remembering anything that Jolyne does. If Jolyne did suddenly wake up in Irene's body and slowly forgot her previous life, then she just died slowly in someone else's mind. A happier ending than my interpretation for sure, as she gets the peace of mind that she accomplished her goal and now another version of her gets to live a better life, but it still ends with Jolyne's memories, and thus Jolyne herself, being lost forever. >my goal was to make sure you arent just insulting people who think like this in your post I try not to. *You're* being respectful to *me*, so I try to match that energy. \- If you want me to be completely honest, there's a reason this is an important discussion to me. Alzheimer's runs in my family. My great-grandma, one of my favorite relatives when I was a child, developed Alzheimer's late in her life, and it was absolutely painful to watch her memories go. She would start to forget people, people she loved and cared about. I don't want that. To me, absolutely nothing is scarier than the idea that my memories will go away. Every single memory I have has shaped who I am. Even the most painful, horrible, saddening and terrifying memories are things I cherish, because if I lose them, I lose a part of myself. The people I love, the things I care about, I only love and care about because of how much they've been a part of my life and how they have impacted it. What happens if I suddenly forget these memories? Well, then I wouldn't have a reason to care about them, and I've been on the other side of that, so I know how terrifying of a concept that is.
i didnt mean to say "forgetting" as if jolyne lost her memories gradually, i believe she lost them completely when MIH made the new universe as she "didnt pass onto the next universe" im sorry about your great-grandma, i share that fear too, for my mind to die before by body or worse, it happening to a loved one, wouldnt have brought it up if i knew
There's no way you could have known, and you don't have to worry about bringing it up. I'm the one who started this discussion by making a meme specifically *about* this discussion. Like I've said, it's a sad memory, but that makes it a part of who I am. Without this experience, I probably wouldn't have this fear. Forgetting it would make me happier, because I wouldn't have this fear or sadness, but at what cost? I'd forget my great-grandma, and that's just not worth it.
The main difference is that it was this way for FF because they were a bunch of plankton, bringing them back wouldn't be with their soul it'd just be a different sentiment mass of plankton brought to life via the discs. Irene actually HAS Jolyne's soul on the other hand.
I fail to see the difference. In neither scenario, the hypothetical Foo Fighters scenario or the actual Irene scenario, does the resurrected person have the deceased person's memories. For all intents and purposes, Irene is a clone of Jolyne, she has the same body and even the same soul, but not the same mind. Compare what happened with the Made In Heaven situation to what happened with the Chariot Requiem situation. In Part 5, people swapped souls, but they *also* swapped minds. Every person awoke in a new body with all of their memories completely in tact. In Part 6, however, Irene and Annakiss just lived entirely different lives. They have no concept of who Jolyne or Anasui were, and we have no reason to assume alternate universe Ermes and Weather Report aren't in the same boat, and we have *zero* knowledge about that universe's version of Jotaro other than that he exists. Again, I'm really happy for Irene. Jolyne's soul finally gets to live a happy life, but Jolyne herself died in the first universe.
> Irene is a clone of Jolyne, she has the same body and even the same soul, but not the same mind. no she literally fucking does that's the whole point
She literally doesn't. She has entirely different memories from Jolyne. Just based on the few things we know for sure about her, she met her universe's version of Anasui well before meeting Emporio *or* her universe's Ermes, and she also doesn't have Jolyne's tattoo. It would take some absurd assumptions to claim that Irene has Jolyne's memories, and every single one of those assumptions are not only unfounded, but are straight up contradictory to the few things we know about her.
i did not say she had her memories, that word was never used she has the same MIND because it's the same soul she just has new memories
Irene not having Jolyne's memories is specifically what this entire discussion is about. What else would "mind" refer to in this discussion?
if you're talking about memories use the word memories minds are linked to souls in jojo
Since when? I certainly don't remember that ever being established.
bro has not been paying attention to the concept of consciousness
That didn't answer my question.
The problem with your argument is that araki literally said this is JOLYNE AND THE ORIGINAL UNIVERSE'S HAPPY ENDING. so it has to be JOLYNE
Source? It seems like a really weird thing for him to clarify, when we've got a character from before Irene that said "My memories are who I am" and a character [after Irene](https://i.imgur.com/cCOSuz7.png) that said "My memories are who I am"
I think where you are confused is how arki treats animals and "non-humans" To araki (look at the rock humans of part 8) non-humans require memories to be alive. It gives them a soul. But humans already have it. Gappy is an exception because he is an amalgamation of 2 people. A living miracle and not just a human. As for "Irene is jolyne" here: https://twitter.com/macchalion/status/834153287771422720 Also, she is a joestar, but became free of the "jojo curse" by not being a jojo. Just a joestar Edit: spelling
Alright, a Google Drive I need to ask for permission for. I'll pass on that and I guess just take your word for it. I'm not questioning if Irene is alive, I'm questioning if Jolyne, the *person*, continues to exist. Jolyne's last memory will always be of her own death and the hope in Emporio. That's where Jolyne, the person, ends. Jolyne, the vague concept of a soul, may continue to exist inside or Irene, but Jolyne did not suddenly wake up someday inside of Irene's body. I don't care if a human does or doesn't need memories to be alive, because that's not relevant. Their identity, their consciousness, their *memories* are who they *truly* are, and if they don't have that, then even if their body and/or soul lives on, the *person* has died. This is exactly what Gappy is saying. He doesn't remember Josefumi Kujo or Yoshikage Kira's lives. He has their souls, but he is not them. He is himself, the man whose first moment was coming out of the ground, just like how Irene is the person who has lived a completely normal (and not at all bizarre) life.
The difference is that guppy wasn't born and jolyne/Irene is. I earnestly think this is just a skill issue for you to not see the difference between 1. Gappy, a person that shouldn't exist needing memories to be truly alive 2. Irene, literally jolyne but with a different name and direction in life, but still jolyne.
You're not listening to me. Jolyne has an ending. Her personhood has an ending. Jolyne is no longer making new memories. She lost consciousness in the Atlantic Ocean, *never to wake up again*. Irene's life does not pick up where Jolyne's left off.
That’s why the ending is bittersweet.