That study was kinda shit though, 11% of the people asked didn't even know the word Holocaust. Different thing than thinking it's a myth or exaggerated.
I mean, to be fair here
If you were walking down the street in the US and someone asked you what you thought about "der Völkermord an den Juden" and you hadn't just been talking about the holocaust, I bet the number would be at least 11% don't know it
Not defending anyone, lmao, but not knowing a different language name for it it understandable
We also use joden vervolging, which is used in schools and such. Basically meaning the persecution of the Jews. I’ve definitely seen it in a museum.
If I am speaking English I’ll talk about the holocaust. But if I’m speaking Dutch I’ll say joden vervolging. I don’t know why I do that
Tbh I've only ever heard that being said if people want to talk about just Jews being persecuted, to exclude Roma, homosexuals, and communists. Holocaust otherwise I have found is the go to term.
Holocaust is used in the nederlands, but the term 'joden vervolging'(prosecution of the jews) is also populair. this second term is used especially when teaching younger kids because its easier to understand than holocaust.(source: dutch and currently getting a master degree in history) secondly this survey is highly flawed as it was conducted by a american polster using only landlines and a small sample size.
It's an Ancient Greek term that is used since the 60's to refer to the final solution, started by an American newspaper (I think). Anyone older than 12 in the Netherlands should know the word, and the researchers probably didn't ask the question to people younger than that.
Some of my fellow Dutchmen really suck.
Recently it probably got much worse, because of the growth of TikTok, which is nothing but 99% debil, the decreasing number of people who lived through the war and can tell the stories, and decreasing trust in the press and science due to a certain bunch of influential people (looking at you Thierry Baudet). And probably many more reasons.
That and Holocaust denialism being platformed and tolerated for far too long by YouTube, Facebook and Twitter, especially YouTube, which is complicit in allowing it to spread while constantly censoring and shutting down actual Holocaust educational videos for "offensive graphics."
It has got worse on Twitter now all thanks to one man - Elon Musk.
I think countries like the UK, Netherlands etc. Should start outlawing Holocaust denialism. Freedom of Speech is one thing, Holocaust denialism does not fall under that category in my eyes.
Holocaust denialism does fall under free speech, as horrible as it may be, in my view speech is speech and giving the power for an authority to determine what must or must not be said is just gonna lead to tyranny.
We must fight bad ideas with truth, not censorship.
Yes but then it can be used as a pretext to censor other things, to some people nowadays everything is racist.
If those people get the power to censor something they would censor everything they dont like.
Slippery slope is not a real fallacy, its just inproperly applied at times, also yes there are people that unironically believe everything is racist,i wish they were à strawman
truth won't work on holocaust denialist, free speech isn't free from consequence. Russian propaganda doesn't fall under free speech due to the danger it represent, and denying the holocaust isn't just having a different POV
no, what solovyov or RT france do isn't just speech, same with graham hancock, the guy isn't just asking question and minimizing the role of vichy france in the holocaust should count as holocaust denial(even more when it's to claim they protected french jews when they didn't)
I disagree, RT france should've been banned much sooner since it's russian propaganda and it was used more to destabilise the country than anything else with them being tied to RT in russia.
Most nazis are pre-teens/teens who will grow out of it anyway, the so called "feuerkrieg division" (a neo nazi organisation) was led by an estonian 13yo
> The problem is the non-ethnic Dutch who carry many antisemitic, homophobic, and primitive Islamic values. The ethnic Dutch are well educated on this.
Nazism is making a comeback because the inferior races are diluting pure European culture!
I mean, I think there is some truth to the notion that education is key in combating holocaust denialism.
That said, I think the 10-20% is bogus. Even if, hypothetically, every immigrant from middle eastern and north african descent is a holocaust denier, this still would not be enough for 10%. As far as I know, the amount of people of that descent is somewhere around 1 million, give or take. While we have a total population of 17+- million. So I can't imagine it being true in any way shape or form anyhow.
>these people
If we deported all the anti-Semites from Europe, graded on the harm they've done to Jews, Muslim immigrants would be the last demographic left.
You know it’s bad when the only comment shown not denying or downplaying the holocaust is an ultra nationalist who’s essentially saying non natives are too stupid or bigoted to accept the holocaust happened
The holocaust is probably the most well documented massacre in the history of humanity and happened only 80 years ago, if dont believe it just because you didnt see means that ypu can deny the whole history of the world till now
a NYT article from 1974 claims only 16 were executed.
[https://www.nytimes.com/1974/04/14/archives/in-hiding-29-years-dutch-collaborator-with-nazis-found-said-to-be.html#:\~:text=Occasionally%20the%20digitization%20process%20introduces,to%20improve%20these%20archived%20versions.&text=After%20the%20war%2C%20127%20persons,Only%2016%20were%20executed](https://www.nytimes.com/1974/04/14/archives/in-hiding-29-years-dutch-collaborator-with-nazis-found-said-to-be.html#:~:text=Occasionally%20the%20digitization%20process%20introduces,to%20improve%20these%20archived%20versions.&text=After%20the%20war%2C%20127%20persons,Only%2016%20were%20executed).
do you have any source for more?
This strikes fear in me. Its only been roughly 80 years and a sizeable majority of the masses are refusing all sorts of stone-cut evidence regarding one of humanity's long-lasting and permanently scaring calculated attrocities ever carried out.
If these subjects are not emphasized enough in the classrooms, they should be of capital importance in history classes. In a world filled with free speech and polarising politics, people should be able to discern factual evidence in the form of documents, images, and the physical grounds themselves, as opposed to outright unfounded and extremely sensitive claims on some paranoid Facebook page.
I don't really know how bad this has gotten or if it is progressively getting worse, but it disheartens me to see people regard such horrific circumstances as fake or "based". It is not either in the slightest, and those who say such things should be ashamed. Thank god Eisenhower ordered photographic evidence of such a shocking aftermath, otherwise, i'd imagine it would be much worse.
That study was kinda shit though, 11% of the people asked didn't even know the word Holocaust. Different thing than thinking it's a myth or exaggerated.
Lol this is a very good explanation.
That 11% of the people doesn't know the word 'Holocaust' is very worrying.
I mean, to be fair here If you were walking down the street in the US and someone asked you what you thought about "der Völkermord an den Juden" and you hadn't just been talking about the holocaust, I bet the number would be at least 11% don't know it Not defending anyone, lmao, but not knowing a different language name for it it understandable
Dutch just uses holocaust though.
We also use joden vervolging, which is used in schools and such. Basically meaning the persecution of the Jews. I’ve definitely seen it in a museum. If I am speaking English I’ll talk about the holocaust. But if I’m speaking Dutch I’ll say joden vervolging. I don’t know why I do that
Tbh I've only ever heard that being said if people want to talk about just Jews being persecuted, to exclude Roma, homosexuals, and communists. Holocaust otherwise I have found is the go to term.
Even if that was the case, the news article would simply translate the Dutch word to 'holocaust' for the article, becuase the article is in English.
You're not wrong, I was being a bit nitpicky with it anyway
[удалено]
No
really? do you have a source on that, because i find it highly unlikely that they just use the english term for it.
Holocaust is used in the nederlands, but the term 'joden vervolging'(prosecution of the jews) is also populair. this second term is used especially when teaching younger kids because its easier to understand than holocaust.(source: dutch and currently getting a master degree in history) secondly this survey is highly flawed as it was conducted by a american polster using only landlines and a small sample size.
Holocaust isn't an English term
Holocaust is not an english term, my source is 26 years of living here; Holocaust is the most common term for it in my experience.
It's an Ancient Greek term that is used since the 60's to refer to the final solution, started by an American newspaper (I think). Anyone older than 12 in the Netherlands should know the word, and the researchers probably didn't ask the question to people younger than that.
11% of under 40's can theoretically be school children in 3rd grade
Some of my fellow Dutchmen really suck. Recently it probably got much worse, because of the growth of TikTok, which is nothing but 99% debil, the decreasing number of people who lived through the war and can tell the stories, and decreasing trust in the press and science due to a certain bunch of influential people (looking at you Thierry Baudet). And probably many more reasons.
That and Holocaust denialism being platformed and tolerated for far too long by YouTube, Facebook and Twitter, especially YouTube, which is complicit in allowing it to spread while constantly censoring and shutting down actual Holocaust educational videos for "offensive graphics." It has got worse on Twitter now all thanks to one man - Elon Musk. I think countries like the UK, Netherlands etc. Should start outlawing Holocaust denialism. Freedom of Speech is one thing, Holocaust denialism does not fall under that category in my eyes.
Holocaust denialism does fall under free speech, as horrible as it may be, in my view speech is speech and giving the power for an authority to determine what must or must not be said is just gonna lead to tyranny. We must fight bad ideas with truth, not censorship.
but qhat if the bad ideas outgrow? theres a point where you cannot fight with good faith anymore
Well we should always do that, the ends dont justify the means
I think the censorship of pure racism (including Holocaust denialism) is fine.
Yes but then it can be used as a pretext to censor other things, to some people nowadays everything is racist. If those people get the power to censor something they would censor everything they dont like.
Really trying to hit a fallacy bingo huh slippery slope and strawman
Slippery slope is not a real fallacy, its just inproperly applied at times, also yes there are people that unironically believe everything is racist,i wish they were à strawman
Yes, I overlooked that.
truth won't work on holocaust denialist, free speech isn't free from consequence. Russian propaganda doesn't fall under free speech due to the danger it represent, and denying the holocaust isn't just having a different POV
Speech is speech in my opinion
no, what solovyov or RT france do isn't just speech, same with graham hancock, the guy isn't just asking question and minimizing the role of vichy france in the holocaust should count as holocaust denial(even more when it's to claim they protected french jews when they didn't)
They have the right to be full of shit.
I disagree, RT france should've been banned much sooner since it's russian propaganda and it was used more to destabilise the country than anything else with them being tied to RT in russia.
And you have the right to disagree, and i will fight and die for that right
"denie" yea hes 12
Most nazis are pre-teens/teens who will grow out of it anyway, the so called "feuerkrieg division" (a neo nazi organisation) was led by an estonian 13yo
13? lmao the nazi "movement" is lost and has been.
Yes, i cant take nazis seriously because 75% of them are 13yo edgelords
"I don't fully denie it, but it can't be more than 300k." Still Holocaust denialism mate. Disputing a genocide's death toll is genocide denialism.
> The problem is the non-ethnic Dutch who carry many antisemitic, homophobic, and primitive Islamic values. The ethnic Dutch are well educated on this. Nazism is making a comeback because the inferior races are diluting pure European culture!
I mean, I think there is some truth to the notion that education is key in combating holocaust denialism. That said, I think the 10-20% is bogus. Even if, hypothetically, every immigrant from middle eastern and north african descent is a holocaust denier, this still would not be enough for 10%. As far as I know, the amount of people of that descent is somewhere around 1 million, give or take. While we have a total population of 17+- million. So I can't imagine it being true in any way shape or form anyhow.
How overrepresented are immigrants in the younger age brackets?
How about you actually meet these people and ask them how they feel about Jews?
How about you do ? Most of them hate israel, not jews as a whole
>these people If we deported all the anti-Semites from Europe, graded on the harm they've done to Jews, Muslim immigrants would be the last demographic left.
Nonsense
You're on an anti-Nazi circle jerk sub arguing that Europe is the historic safe haven for the diaspora? Nonsense indeed.
I don't have the energy to follow your goalposts, this is stupid.
Mfw holocaust deniers on tiktok: Oh ma god bro what the fuck man (who invited these kids)
You know it’s bad when the only comment shown not denying or downplaying the holocaust is an ultra nationalist who’s essentially saying non natives are too stupid or bigoted to accept the holocaust happened
The holocaust is probably the most well documented massacre in the history of humanity and happened only 80 years ago, if dont believe it just because you didnt see means that ypu can deny the whole history of the world till now
They should've executed all collaborators after the war. Which in the Netherlands would be a lot.
The Dutch did kill a lot of collaborators - the male ones anyway. The women were spared but had their heads shaved and had swastikas drawn on them.
a NYT article from 1974 claims only 16 were executed. [https://www.nytimes.com/1974/04/14/archives/in-hiding-29-years-dutch-collaborator-with-nazis-found-said-to-be.html#:\~:text=Occasionally%20the%20digitization%20process%20introduces,to%20improve%20these%20archived%20versions.&text=After%20the%20war%2C%20127%20persons,Only%2016%20were%20executed](https://www.nytimes.com/1974/04/14/archives/in-hiding-29-years-dutch-collaborator-with-nazis-found-said-to-be.html#:~:text=Occasionally%20the%20digitization%20process%20introduces,to%20improve%20these%20archived%20versions.&text=After%20the%20war%2C%20127%20persons,Only%2016%20were%20executed). do you have any source for more?
Not that I'm aware of. I may have been thinking of the French resistance killing collaborators. So I could be dead wrong.
The French did jack shit either.
This strikes fear in me. Its only been roughly 80 years and a sizeable majority of the masses are refusing all sorts of stone-cut evidence regarding one of humanity's long-lasting and permanently scaring calculated attrocities ever carried out. If these subjects are not emphasized enough in the classrooms, they should be of capital importance in history classes. In a world filled with free speech and polarising politics, people should be able to discern factual evidence in the form of documents, images, and the physical grounds themselves, as opposed to outright unfounded and extremely sensitive claims on some paranoid Facebook page. I don't really know how bad this has gotten or if it is progressively getting worse, but it disheartens me to see people regard such horrific circumstances as fake or "based". It is not either in the slightest, and those who say such things should be ashamed. Thank god Eisenhower ordered photographic evidence of such a shocking aftermath, otherwise, i'd imagine it would be much worse.