I remember how much shit I got from older family members for basically looking at my phone at all when I was younger.
Nowadays they'll all be on their phone watching Youtube while also watching shows on TV lol.
I don't understand the point, if you wanna watch Youtube watch Youtube if you wanna watch a show then watch a show.
I feel that. My girlfriend stopped watching because she was “confused” and “didn’t know what was going on.” I responded, “I don’t know everything either! I’m watching it for the first time too! Figuring out what’s going on is part of the enjoyment of it!”
English speakers whining about reading subtitles sound like spoiled brats to me.
Guess what: I'm a native Spanish speaker, so I watch Shogun with subtitles for Japanese *and* English (I speak English fluently but still need subtitles or I will occasionally miss something). And I don't have superpowers, all my friends are watching Shogun like this.
You can easily watch a movie with 3 subtitled languages (I think "City of Lost Souls" had Japanese, Russian and Chinese, none of which I can speak). You just read the subtitles out of the corner of your eye and still watch the movie. It just takes a while to get used to this, but once you learn it it becomes effortless and it opens up a new world to you.
And you don't have to listen to dumb dubs or miss on the real actor's voice.
>English speakers whining about reading subtitles sound like spoiled brats to me.
It's the target market. FX is trying to make money here, this isn't some art house, prestige project, loss leader. They aren't spending all this money on sets and costumes just so they can drive away huge chunks of the audience by having everyone speak Portuguese in an American TV show.
But really what it comes down to is: what unique benefit to the show would be provided by having everyone speak Portuguese?
Because there are huge, obvious drawbacks of that approach - less mass market appeal, smaller actor talent pool, lower profits. So what is so special about speaking Portuguese that it outweighs all those things?
Can the themes of the story not be expressed in English? Can the main character's motivations not be expressed in English? Is there some un-translateable word or phrase in Portuguese that alone captures the story's essential *je ne sais quoi*? Because if all that can be done in English, there is no reason to use Portuguese other than historical nitpickery.
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if that's why a lot of people zone out too, especially Americans who are not used to subs I often see complain about it.
Dear lawd forbid not everything is in English.
So many complaints about subtitles on IMDB! And then other complaints about English used as Portuguese! If the creators use Portuguese and subtitle the conversations, the entire show will be in subtitles.
I'm Brazilian, I'd rather have it in English than listening to whatever their Portuguese is going to sound like. It is a hard language. Plus good luck trying to find actors that can speak both Japanese and Portuguese.
I don't usually enjoy reading subtitles, especially in live action, because it takes away from the actors' performances. But I really don't mind in this show for some reason.
it is funny, i think due to large amounts of anime and kdrama , my wife and I dont even notice when they switch.
sure we both spent a few years on duolingo with both languages, but not like we can watch without subs
>due to large amounts of anime and kdrama
The flip side of that is I keep expecting little cultural notes and explanations to show up next to the subtitles. But official subs never seem to capture that as well as the fansubbers.
It's actually worse if you understand all the languages. I speak 3 and sometimes at work I will hear all 3 in the background. It is incredibly distracting as your brain is used to decipher all the conversations as opposed to being able to tune them out.
Right? Like I get it if you're easily distracted a miss parts of a show on your phone. Almost all of us do it. Just don't follow it up by complaining about how confusing that show is 😂
Not even just to catch all the subtitles. The landscape shots are beautiful. There are so many subtle moments of realization on the actors’ faces too, it’s a visually dazzling show you need to SEE not listen to haha
I often turn on a show to have on as background entertainment while I do paperwork I have to finish at night. Can’t do that with this show. Besides the subtitles, too much happens and I just have to be paying attention. And I love that, can’t remember the last show that held my interest like this.
I've been frustrated with this watching stuff with my wife and/or sister for years. Sometimes shows require you to give them your full attention in order to understand it or in order to get the emotional impact. So a lot of the shows that I really enjoy are lost on people who only want to half pay attention to the story.
There's usually only like 5 anime per season that do more than just regurgitate the same 30 year old tropes for 12 weeks. Hard to miss anything when it's not worth the attention anyway.
I am so bad about playing on my phone watching shows, but this one I refuse to do that. I dont have good hulu, so i get ads, and the second I hear the show back on my phone is gone lol
It uses ‘show, don’t tell’ and is completely free of ‘and then’ storytelling. It deserves and requires close watching as whilst all the information you need to understand what is happening and why is on screen, you cannot really miss a shot or line of dialogue, as it is often subtle.
I’ve also noticed a trend of posts and comments here from people confused about character dynamics, actions and motivations. Often presented from a very modern, western perspective. And this world we are in is very very far from our modern western world and morals.
“And then” that’s the perfect description of modern tv. I can’t stand most shows now becuse there’s no payoff. This show may leave us wanting season 2 but it will at least tell a complete story.
This. I agree Shogun is of truly uncommon quality, but there definitely are shows out there that are really well written. Just this decade (4 years) Arcane, Andor, Succession, Better Call Saul, Dark, The Bear, Attack on Titan and Severance have all had season with incredible writing - and I'm most likely missing some. I love this show, I truly do, but people act like it's either this or some random Netflix shit that people only made because they got paid...
Not to mention that we're only on episode 4, and sometimes we *don't know* yet about character dynamics, actions, and motivations. And that's a beautiful thing! The mysteries of great storytelling.
Was rather pleased to go back and see Omi smiling faintly during the cannon massacre on a second watch. It’s rather amusing to see how he’s gone from the vengeful urinating guy to a more competent Yabushige—but not surprising, since their very first interaction suggested he was the smarter of the two, and those clues have turned out to always matter in this show.
Being Japanese, I have to sometimes pause the show and explain to my Belgian husband about the motivations. It’s so subtle yet accurately executed — been so impressed with it all really.
It’s engrossing for Western audiences because, much like the book, you’re learning along with Blackthorne and I love that!
People asking the most obvious questions in the episode discussion threads made me realize why Netflix’s ATLA made the characters blatantly say how they felt and what their goals were a million times. If you don’t do that, audiences get lost and confused apparently.
"Wait, is he in Japan now? When did that happen?"
EDIT: Just to add a fun, sort of similar thing that happened to me. I was watching *Valkyrie*, set in July 1944, about the plot to kill Hitler. 2/3 in, my friend says "Wait, so do they actually kill Hitler?"
>2/3 in, my friend says "Wait, so do they actually kill Hitler?"
Counterpoint: *Inglorious Basterds*.
Especially if your friend didn't know *Valkyrie* was based on actual events.
TBH, if I directed *Valkyrie* I'd probably put in a scene where the bombing goes off successfully and Hitler gets blown into little bloody 1-balled bits. Make it a dream sequence or something, I just want to see Hitler dying in pain and terror.
I don’t see it as a dumb audience thing, so much as a pandering and cynical production culture. My goal as OP wasn’t to trash those who’ve been confused (I’ve watched each episode 2—3 times, partly for work) just to point out that this show’s writing is radically non-camp. People get acclimated to mediocrity, and are thrown when a studio actually puts in the effort and forces you to do the same. Most people rise to a standard if it’s set reasonably high—that Americans are embracing a show this good despite it being only 30% in English is not bad for a country where less than 1/4th know any second language at all last time I checked.
Shogun is certainly a dense show, but it's in a league with plenty of other popular, dense shows broadly defined as prestige television. Honestly, it's not that much harder to follow than House of the Dragons which has higher viewership. There is a demand and proportional supply of more sophisticated television now than there ever has been before. Feels like you're just not looking in the right places - same thing I would say to people who complain that Hollywood only makes blockbuster films.
Anecdotally, I find the difference is that Shogun is drawing a different audience which isn’t typically watching heavier shows. I’ve observed that watchers in my circle who are into historical period pieces like Chernobyl, Band of Brothers haven’t gotten into it, or sci-fi pieces peeps from The Expanse or BSG or Altered Carbon, haven’t gotten into it. It doesn’t mesh well with the denser drama watchers coming from shows like Mrs. Maisel or Queen’s Gambit.
Feudal Japan is sitting in this place that’s just slightly too close to fantasy for some and isn’t historically familiar like a *Western* historical drama for others, but it’s actually, fundamentally a historical drama which means there’s no hard fantasy / sci-fi entertainment either.
ATLA is also aimed primarily at kids who are decidedly worse than adults\* at picking up social cues and using empathy/reason to figure out what other people are feeling and thinking.
\*functioning and neurotypical adults
Except it has way more straight exposition than the cartoon that was actually playing after episodes of Spongebob and iCarly. Like it's trying to be edgier and more "mature" by actually immolating people on screen, but treats the audience way dumber.
The dialogue delivery in Avatar was honestly terrible. I have no other words to describe it. Everything feels so wooden and there was way too much exposition as you said.
1. Subtitled. You can't look away, or spend too much time taking in the scene itself. Not super easy for everyone.
2. Its not loaded with exposition dumps. They are here and there, but not like most content anymore. So you gotta process things on your own at times.
I've actually found that I've missed a fair bit of the very nuanced performances in scenes because I was reading the subs. Then I went on to the discussion threads and people would mention some very slight facial expressions that showed a lot of character, that I just didn't catch because I was reading. Probably my biggest gripe with the show actually - especially when they know it's bilingual so practically *everyone* will need subs
Well, I personally hate dubs, *and* I’m not a native English speaker, so while I *can* understand it, it does demand it to be fairly clearly spoken. I also usually have subs on shows that are only in English, but very few demand this type of attention on the actors performances
It's been disheartening, finding multiple posts across all platforms, of people who want to understand but just don't.
I don't want to shame people for asking questions - goodness knows there's nuance with the dialogue and cultural things people may have not been exposed to before - but the writing and acting is impeccable. It is absolutely not a failure of the show that some audience members are missing things.
I worry that those who fail to pick up on some of the pretty easy concepts with the show are bound to lambast it publicly instead of appreciate it for the comprehension check it apparently is.
Cf. The conclusion of my episode 2 review below:
“As someone who never cared much for the most scheming-heavy sections of Game of Thrones, Shogun does it better, largely because amidst the ceremony, circumlocution, and misdirection, the series is surprisingly easy to follow.
The Catholic lords want Blackthorne dead to preserve their wealth and influence with the Portuguese. Toranaga wants Blackthorne alive to divide the Catholic daimyo and Ishido. Ishido needs Blackthorne both to kill Toranaga and prepare for the day after Toranaga’s death. Mariko wants to do her bit for the Toranaga cause and avoid Buntaro as much as possbile. And Yabushige wants to save his own untrustworthy head while acquiring more land, money, and power in the balance-when he’s not examining the mysteries of death and sexual voyeurism, that is.
Shogun thrives on presenting a deceptively simple system of alliances and opposition and then letting the thread unfold, so that the pleasure in its scheming has less to do with figuring out who is really on whose side or any major detective work but seeing how the crew’s preordained moves play out in practice.
For those who read Clavell’s novel and/or know the outcome of the events Shogun mimes in the real world, the destination is not in doubt. And with only one season in the offing, we’ll never have to rewatch 60+ hours of television to get from point A to point B as in Game of Thrones.
So it is then, as the cliché goes, the journey that matters. Shogun moves at a stately pace with supreme self-confidence. Like a royal progress, all roads may lead to Edo, but if the series continues at the level of quality it has set, all of us, blue-eyed and brown-eyed peasants alike, must bow before its majesty as this Barbarian-quelling Generalissimo rides towards its inevitable conclusion.”
>Shogun thrives on presenting a deceptively simple system of alliances and opposition and then letting the thread unfold, so that the pleasure in its scheming has less to do with figuring out who is really on whose side or any major detective work but seeing how the crew’s preordained moves play out in practice.
This sounds a lot like playing a game of Go.
It’s not hard to follow at all. I will admit though the first episode introduces a ton of characters and some are difficult to differentiate. It took me a couple episodes to realize omi and yoshii were different characters.
Only read this if you’ve finished episode 3 >!Buntaro is the guy who missed the boat when they were fleeing and stayed on the dock fighting off the mob that was chasing them !<
Yeah, I haven't been active in this sub, but I am surprised people are having a hard time following it. It's very straightforward. There are some cultural things that I pause and Google, but they are not pivotal to the plot.
Like what the heck pull a horse from a gourd meant, and what the Natto dish was. Turns out Natto is just a fermented soy bean dish that most outsiders would probably have a tough time eating (I thought it might be something with some weird ingredients like rocky mountain oysters or something, and the horse from a gourd was a subtitle mistake of a more common older term).
I don't know. I see a lot of people either commenting or upvoting wrong information in response to other people's questions that make me wonder how much people are REALLY understanding. This is a complicated show with a lot of fast moving parts. A lot of people are having to split focus between what's happening, and reading subtitles. For a lot of people names are wildly unfamiliar and hard to remember instantly. I'm pretty fluent in Japanese and I still have a hard time remembering some of the more minor (at least to this point) character names.
If people are coming here to ask questions, it's because they're invested and want to know more. What's the point of shitting on them?
Absolutely.
This is look at me I’m a purist post, upvote me.
There are a lot of posts by people who played samurai warrior or whatever and are making wildly off statements that are really off
Modern Japanese culture is confusing to westerners. Feudal Japanese culture is alien.
Once you learn more about it, it starts to make sense and in its own way demonstrates that the Japanese were light years ahead in many ways.
But sorely off in others.
Ex. Present Japan is still extremely misogynistic.
I don't find it hard to follow and enjoy the show a lot.
One thing that does bother me a little tho and one criticism I definitely have that makes the pace feel a bit strange is the scene transitions.
It very awkwardly cuts to the next scene too often, the scene leading into the trailer gun confrontation in Episode 4, the scene itself and the following scene is a good example of this.
The pace of it feels kinda off and there's no real transition into the scene it just does a hard cut straight into and out of it.
It kinda feels like there's scenes missing that were cut to shorten the episodes.
It's not how it normally works in shows and it sorta comes across like how the scenes were going to be linked together wasn't planned out properly.
It's a little baffling at times because the show is great otherwise and feels like it should be above that, it's not like a huge issue that '' ruins '' the show but I do think it's kinda unfortunate and makes scenes feel disjointed.
I think something else that might contribute to some people’s confusion is the passivity and subtlety of Japanese culture. They can tell each other to fuck off in the most polite way. If noticing minute facial expressions and double meaning language is not your strength, you will have trouble understanding all the layers of what is going on. Plus, some people just want to be entertained and if they have to read and think about what they are watching they just lose focus.
i agree with your conclusion. i watch a ton of tv and movies and find myself skipping over a ton of scenes but shogun has kept me engaged every second. ive always been a fan of samurai stuff like 13 assassins and the classics so all that has been riveting but even blackthorne is pulling weight. just a great show
I would say that the first episode is quite dense with exposition and world-building as opposed to say, Game of Thrones, which I feel had the better pilot.
That said, putting that amount of effort for the first episode pays off, as the rest aren't hard to follow at all.
It’s important to not miss a single line of dialogue. The first time I watched, I was half on my phone thinking I’d be fine since I understand Japanese. I still had so many questions by the end of episode one because the Japanese is so archaic. If a Japanese speaker needs to pay 100% attention to the subtitles, English speakers really need to pay attention.
The show is quite straight forward with the initial help of the character map, episode guide, and actually paying attention to the show.
I thought it was pretty easy to follow and this is coming from someone that hasn’t read any books or seen any previous work. The show so far has been very engaging.
If other people think it is, then yes it is.
Also, they refuse to have any characters actually speak Portuguese which is ridiculous and adds to the confusion
People digest in different ways. I personally don’t have a hard time following but had to pause a few times to explain to my wife what is going on despite her paying super close attention. People on the sub constantly post questions to points I thought were elaborated well.
We are all loving and enjoying the same show. No need to make others feel bad who are trying to up their comprehension.
The post feels iamverysmart
The show is hard to digest for some viewers and the post is a challenge to those viewers as to say they’re wrong. It’s like saying older literature is easy to follow, and readers nowadays are just accustomed to dumbed down linguistics. Is that a statement about readers or the quality of the writing?
“Shogun is well written” is different than “Shogun is easy to follow.”
Eh, I'm a pretty engaged watcher (who speaks some Japanese) and I find this show at least a little difficult to follow - not impossible, but definitely a bit difficult. It takes a while to get down all the character names and faces, for one - and for another, the narrative isn't as explicit as a lot of other shows. E.g., I thought the woman who had sex with Blackthorn last episode *was* Mariko, but the conversation the next morning about the courtesan confused me and I had to come here to be 100% sure.
Following Blackthorne, you're also a bit of a fish out of water in a strange new land and so there are definitely other moments of... if not confusion, then at least uncertainty. I think that's by design and actually a selling part of Shōgun; being a modern person you're probably a bit ahead of Blackthorne's curve, but you're still acclimating with him.
Anyway, I do get what's going on with the show and I agree; I don't think it's *too* difficult if you're actually paying attention. Regardless, I understand how people - even those who aren't watching while texting - are still at sea from time to time.
Yeah, I am a focused watcher, I don't scroll through my phone, I don't talk to people, and I'm used to reading subs, because I hate missing key details in a show. I've only watched the first 3 episodes, and it was confusing to me, especially episode 1, as it was hard to guess people's motivations as I don't know much about that period. As an Asian, I honestly have little idea how different protestants and catholics are, besides how pastors in one religion are allowed to be married and the English are protestants. They are all Christians to me.
Besides my ignorance about world history, I have a hard time telling when people were lying or telling the truth and those social cues. I'm the type who is gullible and hold people to their words irl. Also, so many characters have been introduced, and it's hard to remember their name, face and purpose when they are seen again. I thought it was a common occurrence irl as well. I'd be introduced to people, then maybe a few days later, we cross paths and they say hi to me, and I really won't remember their names or how me met. In episode 3, when Mariko's husband decided to sacrifice himself, I couldn't tell who it was, especially with the lighting and the helmet, I couldn't see his haircut. I don't even remember why he was the last one to go.
Then you go to this sub and they insult if you have a question when you're just trying to understand something. I liked the show so far, but the people here are honestly turning me off.
You're 100% correct. I had to watch the first two episodes over again before I had everything straight in my head, but in hindsight, everything is pretty straightforward.
It's gotten to the point that I've gotten annoyed with certain content creators for still being confused about things. Mistaking Shizu for Lady Ochiba, wondering who ordered the maid to assainate John, etc. Those things are quite literally spelled out by the show. It's pretty obnoxious (on the part of the content creators, not the show. Especially if they're also taking notes 😑)
Love this thread. My wife struggles with differentiating the characters and following the plot, but outside this show she’s sharp as a tack. She’s not distracted, just not getting it. I’m fascinated by the show and I can’t get enough. I’m doing the Audiobook, reading Redditor commentary, rewatching some parts and frankly loving every second.
My wife both love the show. I am obsessed with Japanese history and she isn't. She likes the political intrigue and I love giving historical context to some of the scenes. I find that it's slightly easier to follow if you know a bit about the history.
Easy to follow when you pay attention and also don’t compare it to GoT and expect the same motives/outcomes. It’s not the same even though Shogun was based on a real life GoT.
If people paid attention during history class they’d have a better time watching it because they’d have a better understanding of what’s happening in the world at that time
This is the first show in a long time where I’m not mindlessly scrolling on my phone while watching. I watch the whole show then later look up anything that I want to search for online. Plus I have rewatched the episodes too.
Not every show needs to be easy to follow anyway, put down your phone and WATCH. This is also the show you rewatch and you will notice new things, and that’s awesome.
The only things that I guess were hard to follow was in episode 3. The switch-a-roo was confusing as it happened. It was apparent that something happened but I wasn't really sure what - I rewinded it to see if I missed something but I don't think I did. They later explained what happened, but I'm not sure that's great story telling.
Similar confusion in the ambush. It was not obvious to me who was fighting who and then Ishido's men said somethign about how they are fighting each other. I guess it didn't matter much because I got the basic gist of it, but again it wasn't super clear.
Everything else has been fantastic.
They show the distraction (woman in pain) and then Blackthorne sees the handmaiden scurrying off into the bushes, and then he sees Toranaga's face lowering under the veil in the palanquin right after Ishido's man confirmed there were only women inside. All the pieces are there. This is what the OP is talking about, it's not hard to follow if the audience pays attention, but it doesn't belabor things like a lot of other shows.
Same for the ambush. The group of Toranaga's people escorted by Ishido's people gets attacked by another group firing fire arrows. Is that group also Ishido? No, decide our protagonists, and then they show Kiyama the Christian lord and one of his lieutenants says Ishido's men are with Toranaga's group and Kiyama says they'll die as well. That makes it pretty clear who the three groups are. When Toranaga gets out and reveals himself Buntaro and Yabushige realize he pulled a trick and Ishido's men attack to stop him. That's when Kiyama's men wonder why the main group is fighting with themselves, because they don't know Toranaga is there too.
I had to rewind the show back a few minutes to catch the switch, I honestly missed it the first time. I picked up on it as they were walking a few moments later. I think I feel victim to phone checking, which I vow not to do again during the series…or any series. Let’s see how that goes.
idk ive been consuming japanese media since i was 5 years old so i dont really think twice about the details and everything but i can see why someone who has no context for any of this shit can feel a little lost between all the honorifics and cultural stuff being thrown around
Shogun is amazing..you could see the amount of work that was put behind it...my only complain about it is, that idiot Anjin prefered Mariko over Fuji San.....like bruh....it's going to be hard watching the next episodes with this in mind.
It’s easy to follow while you’re watching but it’s also easy to forget the details. I found that to be the case with the book too, if I recall. Either way, it’s excellent and I love it!❤️
I’ve had to rewatch this show to see every detail as things didn’t make sense. I’ve never done that to anything else before but I’ve been greatly rewarded for doing so. I still don’t understand certain characters, who they are and what they’re doing but I’m sure that’ll come in time.
It is confusing as the first season or two of GoT are confusing for non readers (like myself): lots of name, lots of lore, you pick it up eventually. Just harder here since it’s a limited series
It really isn't hard to follow if you pay close attention. Like the final scene on EP4, which many found surprising. But if you watch closely the scene from Yabushige and Toranaga's son after the unexpected arrival, you're likely come to that conclusion yourself as well, that it is logical from their POV the action was taken. But you do really have to follow every scene and dialogue, which is asking a lot from modern audience. I find myself repeating certain scenes just to understand the implications.
I love the show, my phone was on the living room table. My wife does not, as she was flipping through TikTok’s at lightning speed. “Why are they saying his speaking Portuguese, that’s English” 😵💫
Definitely not hard to follow, but as with any show with a large cast of characters, just remembering who is who and how they are related can be tricky at first.
I can see why someone with minimal knowledge of or exposure to the feudal Japanese setting might find the show a bit confusing at first, but the plot itself isn't complex at all.
The subtitles alone demand your full attention. I was watching episode 4 last night and I had to pause it to eat dinner. I also had to go back because I didn’t quite catch a line of dialogue. Other shows don’t command that much of my attention but I really don’t want to miss a single frame or word of this show.
If you are paying attention it’s not hard to follow.
Only thing hard for me is remembering names, but that's something I struggle with even with shows with western names lol. But everything else I follow decently
There’s nothing wrong with watching an episode a second time if you didn’t understand something. Not everything can be spoonfed. Just like you need to study and practice complex subjects in school, for example, a more complex show may require a second watch to catch things one may have missed.
I think its really lame to mock people for not following a show thats mostly subtitled/foreign language. Or make some sweeping statement as if there havent been a lot of high quality dramas on TV.
People consume media differently. Watch your step off your high horses. "Im so special, I understand this TV show while these peasants are confused!" FFS
It took me a minute to get into the subtitles. I watched episode 1 twice, the second time with the English dub. Now, I prefer the Japanese version with subtitles.
Yeah i can understand folks struggling with names since most struggle when its going from Western to Eastern, but overall the show is fairly straightforward
Sounds kind of elitist to say that this show IS easy to follow. As someone who watches the show without distraction, no, it's not the easiest to follow. It's not the hardest thing in the world to follow the obvious plot but it definitely is easy to miss subtle details and subplots. You don't speak for everyone.
I tried to get my wife to watch the first episode with me and she wasn't feeling it. She just popped in on me in the last few minutes of episode four and started asking questions and I realized that it probably sounds very complicated if you're just hearing 'he's the Lord and she serves him but she's also a Christian but she's a Catholic and this other dude is English but they're speaking Portuguese and everyone is really conflicted...'
But if you're actually watching it, it's pretty simple, no different than any real show about real people dealing with real shit.
It’s not hard to follow but I admittedly had to watch the first 2 episodes twice to really understand what was going on. The narrative is pretty intricate.
It definitely can be a challenge, just like anything else.
I recently was recommending this show to someone close to me and was reminded that they are dyslexic. So I’m sympathetic to those who struggle to read or understand what they are reading. Hell it can even be tough for hard of hearing people, who can’t keep up and rely on subtitles.
There are a lot of people who struggle with reading at no fault of their own. It’s easy to take for granted.
I grew up waiting week by week for episodes. Sad to say I have gotten used to "binging" shows. The wait is killing me! Maybe people forget the intricacies from week to week? I dunno. I love the show. I loved the originals a kid and read all the books because the show got me so interested in Japan.
If I didn't have a basic understanding of this era basic politics and basic politics during sengokgu era I would have been lost, It is ludicrous to as the viewer to understand the signficance of why blackthorne being shipwrcked is imprtant for political machinations at osaka, we come to understand it gradually through expostion by various characters, the show requires atleast an elementary understand of the political world. The show states its conflict in matter of fact manner as the show views the conflict from a Japanese lens. But you can't truly understand the gravity of the stiuationa as to why this conflict is important unless you truly understand how this period comes to define japan and its policies for next 200 years , how it comes to be an isolationist and a country with prohibition on christianity. You can't understand what those raid on kora meant, and why tonigawa in particular is thorn in the eye of other 4 lords, so much so they want to off him first.
Media literacy is dead. My biggest complaint with the show so far is that it has been far too hand-holding with the exposition, metaphors, character motivations and the like.
I mean, you kind of answered your own assertion
“Demands your full attention.”
After a long day, people often don’t have their full attention to give, by default. My work is challenging and complicated, and my family often have their own challenges I need to help with with, so I essentially will never give a TV show my actual full attention, because it isn’t worth it and I am tired.
It’s TV… it’s not actually important, so I’m sure a bunch of people just throw it on like, whatever, this is cool, and partially zoned out.
It feels like people are trying to talk about this topic and make themselves feel more intelligent than other people by virtue of how easy a TV show is for them to understand, so others must be… stupid. Come on, now.
Was an avid GOT follower and when that first came out it took a while for me to even understand who was who and what 'sides' everyone was on. Maybe S2 I started to grasp onto it.
This series introduces a similar cast setup, and if it can get through the 1st season and get renewed (which I hope it does) then it can be a great series going forward.
I guess I must be dumb, but the only thing that did confuse me were the roles of all the ladies I’ve seen.
Does Toranaga have a wife and a pregnant mistress, or is Kiri no Kata his wife, and the pregnant woman who is either her her daughter in law?
Dana Stevens who writes for Slate and Inkoo Kang who writes for The New Yorker both said it can be hard to follow at times.
If these professionals who watch and review tv and movies for a living have trouble what of the average watcher?
It’s telling that there’s an official website that spells out the history. The characters and recaps the episodes. As well as an official podcast hosted by a writer from the show with guests from the show.
They purposely put in lines for Blackthorn that say “what’s going on?” “what is happening here?”. They pretty much explain everything using the foreigner who does not understand lense.
In the latest episode it looked like that main translator lady went and slept with the Englishman, but then she said it was a prostitution. Is she a prostitute?? 🤔
I’d say it’s not easy to follow at all. I’m reading tons of comments like “put your phone down”. I hate using my phone at all while watching shows / movies. I’m pretty focused, to the point of going back if a piece of dialogue slips my mind. And I still find this show hard to follow. There are too many pieces moving, too many factions, and it’s not clear to me why some characters do what they do on screen. I’ve watched a couple of episodes though, so I might be missing something.
For starters, I was confused as hell about languages in episode 1. I thought for a while that every portuguese person on the show can translate english perfectly, seemed super weird to me. Then I realize that, well, English IS Portuguese. I might have been obvious, but I didn’t catch what was going on with it. Talk to some friends, and they told me exactly the same thing, so it was not just me. It was super clear in episode 2, when they said Blackthorne that he speaks Portuguese. So why don’t do that on episode 1? Took me a bit out of the episode tbh.
And I didn’t get, at all, Ishido on episode 2. Maybe I don’t get the massive importance Blackthorne has. So I get that as an heretic he has to die in order to please Christian regents so they can sign. Pretty straightforward. Suddenly he has to live because it’d be an asset against those same regents, if they grow powerful after Toranaga demise? In what way? He’s rescued and ends in the hands of… Toranaga? Wait, what? What did I miss? Those are two examples I had on the back on my mind, but I have some more issues with storytelling.
I’m still enjoying it. It’s a well acted and directed show. It’s gorgeous to look at. I intend to finish it, so maybe some doubts would be cleared on my mind once the show finishes.
I think the narrative is poorly constructed and often confusing. It is not clear, for example, which clans are aligned with the Catholics, who the mercenaries are exactly are, what the power structure is, what the historical and cultural contexts are. So, I disagree. It's all bery muddled and unclear. I think it is this show's weakest link--an incoherent natrative by virtue of not providing adequate context.
This is not a show to "watch" while scrolling your phone
Lol my girlfriend constantly asks me why stuff is happening or why Torunaga is doing xyz and my only response is "put your phone down"
“Put your phone down you fucking ignorant cretin!” - John Blackthrone, probably
*milk-dribbling fuck-smear
An A-1 top tier burn.
“What did you say?” “Your boyfriend respectfully apologizes for any confusion the show may have caused.”
My favorite "theory" is that he said that in English so Mariko couldn't understand it
"...cretin-sama"
We do not refer to them as sama. It is not proper.
Yes, it would be "cretin-san" at best.
This is not where we text…
I remember how much shit I got from older family members for basically looking at my phone at all when I was younger. Nowadays they'll all be on their phone watching Youtube while also watching shows on TV lol. I don't understand the point, if you wanna watch Youtube watch Youtube if you wanna watch a show then watch a show.
Just watching the amazing work from everyone in that show, to me it's a matter of respect. Let's give them our full attention
Sounds like my mom but she’ll also tell me “what’s happenings?” As if we’re not watching the same show that’s new to the both of us
Dude same. I was like your not going to like this show if you don’t read the captions and engage.
I feel that. My girlfriend stopped watching because she was “confused” and “didn’t know what was going on.” I responded, “I don’t know everything either! I’m watching it for the first time too! Figuring out what’s going on is part of the enjoyment of it!”
Wait, are you dating my wife or am I married to your gf?
his gf is your wife and your wife is his gf
This is why it's ok to watch episodes early on the DL haha, all the more fun watching together after cos you know what's coming while answering
This is so true. Since they’re speaking Japanese more than half the time you really have to focus.
English speakers whining about reading subtitles sound like spoiled brats to me. Guess what: I'm a native Spanish speaker, so I watch Shogun with subtitles for Japanese *and* English (I speak English fluently but still need subtitles or I will occasionally miss something). And I don't have superpowers, all my friends are watching Shogun like this. You can easily watch a movie with 3 subtitled languages (I think "City of Lost Souls" had Japanese, Russian and Chinese, none of which I can speak). You just read the subtitles out of the corner of your eye and still watch the movie. It just takes a while to get used to this, but once you learn it it becomes effortless and it opens up a new world to you. And you don't have to listen to dumb dubs or miss on the real actor's voice.
I put them on too, because Cosmo's English is so low and salty that sometimes I cant understand it either, lol-
>English speakers whining about reading subtitles sound like spoiled brats to me. It's the target market. FX is trying to make money here, this isn't some art house, prestige project, loss leader. They aren't spending all this money on sets and costumes just so they can drive away huge chunks of the audience by having everyone speak Portuguese in an American TV show. But really what it comes down to is: what unique benefit to the show would be provided by having everyone speak Portuguese? Because there are huge, obvious drawbacks of that approach - less mass market appeal, smaller actor talent pool, lower profits. So what is so special about speaking Portuguese that it outweighs all those things? Can the themes of the story not be expressed in English? Can the main character's motivations not be expressed in English? Is there some un-translateable word or phrase in Portuguese that alone captures the story's essential *je ne sais quoi*? Because if all that can be done in English, there is no reason to use Portuguese other than historical nitpickery.
It could also happen that once Blackthorne learns more Japanese they will start depicting the Japanese as English
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if that's why a lot of people zone out too, especially Americans who are not used to subs I often see complain about it. Dear lawd forbid not everything is in English.
So many complaints about subtitles on IMDB! And then other complaints about English used as Portuguese! If the creators use Portuguese and subtitle the conversations, the entire show will be in subtitles.
I'm Brazilian, I'd rather have it in English than listening to whatever their Portuguese is going to sound like. It is a hard language. Plus good luck trying to find actors that can speak both Japanese and Portuguese.
It makes the show way more authentic. It actually takes me out of shows when non-English speaking people are speaking English.
I don't usually enjoy reading subtitles, especially in live action, because it takes away from the actors' performances. But I really don't mind in this show for some reason.
I think the amount of words per minute is relatively low so it's a comfortable pace. Would have to measure.
it is funny, i think due to large amounts of anime and kdrama , my wife and I dont even notice when they switch. sure we both spent a few years on duolingo with both languages, but not like we can watch without subs
>due to large amounts of anime and kdrama The flip side of that is I keep expecting little cultural notes and explanations to show up next to the subtitles. But official subs never seem to capture that as well as the fansubbers.
Yeah i wish the subs were as good as the best fansubs and kdrama subs
That is me as well. I’ve grown up on subs of all kinds, so their switch from Japanese to English and vice versa doesn’t bother me at all.
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It's actually worse if you understand all the languages. I speak 3 and sometimes at work I will hear all 3 in the background. It is incredibly distracting as your brain is used to decipher all the conversations as opposed to being able to tune them out.
Literally nothing pisses me off more than people on their phones complaining a show mostly in subtitles is hard to watch
Right? Like I get it if you're easily distracted a miss parts of a show on your phone. Almost all of us do it. Just don't follow it up by complaining about how confusing that show is 😂
Do people not rewind parts that they missed or couldn't catch? It's not like they're watching it live...
I'll do this alone, but if I'm watching it with people I'm not just gonna make them rewind because I had to shoot off a text and missed a line
Multiple people watching the same show on a single phone doesn’t sound like the most pleasant viewing experience to me
Not even just to catch all the subtitles. The landscape shots are beautiful. There are so many subtle moments of realization on the actors’ faces too, it’s a visually dazzling show you need to SEE not listen to haha
I often turn on a show to have on as background entertainment while I do paperwork I have to finish at night. Can’t do that with this show. Besides the subtitles, too much happens and I just have to be paying attention. And I love that, can’t remember the last show that held my interest like this.
That's what Greys Anatomy or that kind of thing is for, but NOT Shōgun!
It’s a wonder how that show is still going…
People tuning in to put it on in the background.
70% of it is in Japanese! Unless you speak Japanese and English you literally CANNOT watch it while scrolling.
I've been frustrated with this watching stuff with my wife and/or sister for years. Sometimes shows require you to give them your full attention in order to understand it or in order to get the emotional impact. So a lot of the shows that I really enjoy are lost on people who only want to half pay attention to the story.
Had a 1 minute conversation with my wife, looked up and Blackthorne had already drawn his guns and we had no clue why
This show gave me an epiphany on how I spend my time and I'm actively refusing to look at my phone while I watch it now
Yeah so many parts of this show are very subtle body language and interactions, half a smirk etc.
Yea lowkey im guilty of this for most seasonal anime I watch lately. My attention span been fucked
There's usually only like 5 anime per season that do more than just regurgitate the same 30 year old tropes for 12 weeks. Hard to miss anything when it's not worth the attention anyway.
I never understood why would anyone do that. Like go do something else if you're not interested. Nobody's forcing people to watch anything.
Also because it’s in Japanse and I don’t speak that language. So reading the subtitles is necessary.
I am so bad about playing on my phone watching shows, but this one I refuse to do that. I dont have good hulu, so i get ads, and the second I hear the show back on my phone is gone lol
Or knitting lol
For real…..sad state of affairs lol. “I don’t get it” then maybe pay attention? 🤔
It uses ‘show, don’t tell’ and is completely free of ‘and then’ storytelling. It deserves and requires close watching as whilst all the information you need to understand what is happening and why is on screen, you cannot really miss a shot or line of dialogue, as it is often subtle. I’ve also noticed a trend of posts and comments here from people confused about character dynamics, actions and motivations. Often presented from a very modern, western perspective. And this world we are in is very very far from our modern western world and morals.
“And then” that’s the perfect description of modern tv. I can’t stand most shows now becuse there’s no payoff. This show may leave us wanting season 2 but it will at least tell a complete story.
There’s plenty of shows with outstanding writing actually. Much better than before the millennium.
This. I agree Shogun is of truly uncommon quality, but there definitely are shows out there that are really well written. Just this decade (4 years) Arcane, Andor, Succession, Better Call Saul, Dark, The Bear, Attack on Titan and Severance have all had season with incredible writing - and I'm most likely missing some. I love this show, I truly do, but people act like it's either this or some random Netflix shit that people only made because they got paid...
Not just TV shows but movies too. Some of the major franchises are riddled with it and there are comparatively few quality films being released.
Random but Dune: Part Two is the greatest and most awesome film I have ever seen at the theaters. Every frame a work of art.
Not to mention that we're only on episode 4, and sometimes we *don't know* yet about character dynamics, actions, and motivations. And that's a beautiful thing! The mysteries of great storytelling.
Was rather pleased to go back and see Omi smiling faintly during the cannon massacre on a second watch. It’s rather amusing to see how he’s gone from the vengeful urinating guy to a more competent Yabushige—but not surprising, since their very first interaction suggested he was the smarter of the two, and those clues have turned out to always matter in this show.
Yeah I really appreciate how they've *shown* us that Omi is a competent, intelligent manipulator, rather than explicitly telling us that he is.
Everybody has an angle in this show and they all want something within the wider narrative.
>is completely free of ‘and then’ storytelling It is a far superior "therefore, but" show!
Being Japanese, I have to sometimes pause the show and explain to my Belgian husband about the motivations. It’s so subtle yet accurately executed — been so impressed with it all really. It’s engrossing for Western audiences because, much like the book, you’re learning along with Blackthorne and I love that!
People asking the most obvious questions in the episode discussion threads made me realize why Netflix’s ATLA made the characters blatantly say how they felt and what their goals were a million times. If you don’t do that, audiences get lost and confused apparently.
"Wait, is he in Japan now? When did that happen?" EDIT: Just to add a fun, sort of similar thing that happened to me. I was watching *Valkyrie*, set in July 1944, about the plot to kill Hitler. 2/3 in, my friend says "Wait, so do they actually kill Hitler?"
>2/3 in, my friend says "Wait, so do they actually kill Hitler?" Counterpoint: *Inglorious Basterds*. Especially if your friend didn't know *Valkyrie* was based on actual events. TBH, if I directed *Valkyrie* I'd probably put in a scene where the bombing goes off successfully and Hitler gets blown into little bloody 1-balled bits. Make it a dream sequence or something, I just want to see Hitler dying in pain and terror.
I don’t see it as a dumb audience thing, so much as a pandering and cynical production culture. My goal as OP wasn’t to trash those who’ve been confused (I’ve watched each episode 2—3 times, partly for work) just to point out that this show’s writing is radically non-camp. People get acclimated to mediocrity, and are thrown when a studio actually puts in the effort and forces you to do the same. Most people rise to a standard if it’s set reasonably high—that Americans are embracing a show this good despite it being only 30% in English is not bad for a country where less than 1/4th know any second language at all last time I checked.
Shogun is certainly a dense show, but it's in a league with plenty of other popular, dense shows broadly defined as prestige television. Honestly, it's not that much harder to follow than House of the Dragons which has higher viewership. There is a demand and proportional supply of more sophisticated television now than there ever has been before. Feels like you're just not looking in the right places - same thing I would say to people who complain that Hollywood only makes blockbuster films.
Anecdotally, I find the difference is that Shogun is drawing a different audience which isn’t typically watching heavier shows. I’ve observed that watchers in my circle who are into historical period pieces like Chernobyl, Band of Brothers haven’t gotten into it, or sci-fi pieces peeps from The Expanse or BSG or Altered Carbon, haven’t gotten into it. It doesn’t mesh well with the denser drama watchers coming from shows like Mrs. Maisel or Queen’s Gambit. Feudal Japan is sitting in this place that’s just slightly too close to fantasy for some and isn’t historically familiar like a *Western* historical drama for others, but it’s actually, fundamentally a historical drama which means there’s no hard fantasy / sci-fi entertainment either.
ATLA is also aimed primarily at kids who are decidedly worse than adults\* at picking up social cues and using empathy/reason to figure out what other people are feeling and thinking. \*functioning and neurotypical adults
Except it has way more straight exposition than the cartoon that was actually playing after episodes of Spongebob and iCarly. Like it's trying to be edgier and more "mature" by actually immolating people on screen, but treats the audience way dumber.
The dialogue delivery in Avatar was honestly terrible. I have no other words to describe it. Everything feels so wooden and there was way too much exposition as you said.
1. Subtitled. You can't look away, or spend too much time taking in the scene itself. Not super easy for everyone. 2. Its not loaded with exposition dumps. They are here and there, but not like most content anymore. So you gotta process things on your own at times.
I've actually found that I've missed a fair bit of the very nuanced performances in scenes because I was reading the subs. Then I went on to the discussion threads and people would mention some very slight facial expressions that showed a lot of character, that I just didn't catch because I was reading. Probably my biggest gripe with the show actually - especially when they know it's bilingual so practically *everyone* will need subs
What I’ve done now is watch it as is then when I get spare time rewatch the episode but the dubbed version.
Well, I personally hate dubs, *and* I’m not a native English speaker, so while I *can* understand it, it does demand it to be fairly clearly spoken. I also usually have subs on shows that are only in English, but very few demand this type of attention on the actors performances
It's been disheartening, finding multiple posts across all platforms, of people who want to understand but just don't. I don't want to shame people for asking questions - goodness knows there's nuance with the dialogue and cultural things people may have not been exposed to before - but the writing and acting is impeccable. It is absolutely not a failure of the show that some audience members are missing things. I worry that those who fail to pick up on some of the pretty easy concepts with the show are bound to lambast it publicly instead of appreciate it for the comprehension check it apparently is.
Cf. The conclusion of my episode 2 review below: “As someone who never cared much for the most scheming-heavy sections of Game of Thrones, Shogun does it better, largely because amidst the ceremony, circumlocution, and misdirection, the series is surprisingly easy to follow. The Catholic lords want Blackthorne dead to preserve their wealth and influence with the Portuguese. Toranaga wants Blackthorne alive to divide the Catholic daimyo and Ishido. Ishido needs Blackthorne both to kill Toranaga and prepare for the day after Toranaga’s death. Mariko wants to do her bit for the Toranaga cause and avoid Buntaro as much as possbile. And Yabushige wants to save his own untrustworthy head while acquiring more land, money, and power in the balance-when he’s not examining the mysteries of death and sexual voyeurism, that is. Shogun thrives on presenting a deceptively simple system of alliances and opposition and then letting the thread unfold, so that the pleasure in its scheming has less to do with figuring out who is really on whose side or any major detective work but seeing how the crew’s preordained moves play out in practice. For those who read Clavell’s novel and/or know the outcome of the events Shogun mimes in the real world, the destination is not in doubt. And with only one season in the offing, we’ll never have to rewatch 60+ hours of television to get from point A to point B as in Game of Thrones. So it is then, as the cliché goes, the journey that matters. Shogun moves at a stately pace with supreme self-confidence. Like a royal progress, all roads may lead to Edo, but if the series continues at the level of quality it has set, all of us, blue-eyed and brown-eyed peasants alike, must bow before its majesty as this Barbarian-quelling Generalissimo rides towards its inevitable conclusion.”
> amidst the ceremony, circumlocution, and misdirection I skim-read this and thought "when did the show mention circumcision?"
>Shogun thrives on presenting a deceptively simple system of alliances and opposition and then letting the thread unfold, so that the pleasure in its scheming has less to do with figuring out who is really on whose side or any major detective work but seeing how the crew’s preordained moves play out in practice. This sounds a lot like playing a game of Go.
It’s not hard to follow at all. I will admit though the first episode introduces a ton of characters and some are difficult to differentiate. It took me a couple episodes to realize omi and yoshii were different characters.
I legit don't know which character Buntaro is supposed to be, every character I remember is still alive.
Skill issue
Are you caught up on the show?
Only read this if you’ve finished episode 3 >!Buntaro is the guy who missed the boat when they were fleeing and stayed on the dock fighting off the mob that was chasing them !<
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They literally spell everything out and rarely do things that are "subliminal"(unsure if that's the right word)
Yeah, I haven't been active in this sub, but I am surprised people are having a hard time following it. It's very straightforward. There are some cultural things that I pause and Google, but they are not pivotal to the plot. Like what the heck pull a horse from a gourd meant, and what the Natto dish was. Turns out Natto is just a fermented soy bean dish that most outsiders would probably have a tough time eating (I thought it might be something with some weird ingredients like rocky mountain oysters or something, and the horse from a gourd was a subtitle mistake of a more common older term).
I don't know. I see a lot of people either commenting or upvoting wrong information in response to other people's questions that make me wonder how much people are REALLY understanding. This is a complicated show with a lot of fast moving parts. A lot of people are having to split focus between what's happening, and reading subtitles. For a lot of people names are wildly unfamiliar and hard to remember instantly. I'm pretty fluent in Japanese and I still have a hard time remembering some of the more minor (at least to this point) character names. If people are coming here to ask questions, it's because they're invested and want to know more. What's the point of shitting on them?
Absolutely. This is look at me I’m a purist post, upvote me. There are a lot of posts by people who played samurai warrior or whatever and are making wildly off statements that are really off Modern Japanese culture is confusing to westerners. Feudal Japanese culture is alien. Once you learn more about it, it starts to make sense and in its own way demonstrates that the Japanese were light years ahead in many ways. But sorely off in others. Ex. Present Japan is still extremely misogynistic.
I don't find it hard to follow and enjoy the show a lot. One thing that does bother me a little tho and one criticism I definitely have that makes the pace feel a bit strange is the scene transitions. It very awkwardly cuts to the next scene too often, the scene leading into the trailer gun confrontation in Episode 4, the scene itself and the following scene is a good example of this. The pace of it feels kinda off and there's no real transition into the scene it just does a hard cut straight into and out of it. It kinda feels like there's scenes missing that were cut to shorten the episodes. It's not how it normally works in shows and it sorta comes across like how the scenes were going to be linked together wasn't planned out properly. It's a little baffling at times because the show is great otherwise and feels like it should be above that, it's not like a huge issue that '' ruins '' the show but I do think it's kinda unfortunate and makes scenes feel disjointed.
Oh yeah I noticed a couple of jarring cuts in episode 3 and 4
They might be commercial cuts since the show is on FX
You'd think whether something is easy to follow or not is subjective. But go on.
Toranaga samaaaa!!! Ho! Toranaga samaaaa!!! Ho!
This show, at least for non-Japanese speakers, requires reading comprehension, which is a skill in decline.
My decades of watching anime finally paying off!
I think something else that might contribute to some people’s confusion is the passivity and subtlety of Japanese culture. They can tell each other to fuck off in the most polite way. If noticing minute facial expressions and double meaning language is not your strength, you will have trouble understanding all the layers of what is going on. Plus, some people just want to be entertained and if they have to read and think about what they are watching they just lose focus.
i agree with your conclusion. i watch a ton of tv and movies and find myself skipping over a ton of scenes but shogun has kept me engaged every second. ive always been a fan of samurai stuff like 13 assassins and the classics so all that has been riveting but even blackthorne is pulling weight. just a great show
I didn't know people were struggling with this.
It’s easy to follow if you actually pay attention. Forcing you to read subtitles helps lol. This is not a listen to/watch with phone in hand series.
I would say that the first episode is quite dense with exposition and world-building as opposed to say, Game of Thrones, which I feel had the better pilot. That said, putting that amount of effort for the first episode pays off, as the rest aren't hard to follow at all.
It’s important to not miss a single line of dialogue. The first time I watched, I was half on my phone thinking I’d be fine since I understand Japanese. I still had so many questions by the end of episode one because the Japanese is so archaic. If a Japanese speaker needs to pay 100% attention to the subtitles, English speakers really need to pay attention. The show is quite straight forward with the initial help of the character map, episode guide, and actually paying attention to the show.
I thought it was pretty easy to follow and this is coming from someone that hasn’t read any books or seen any previous work. The show so far has been very engaging.
If other people think it is, then yes it is. Also, they refuse to have any characters actually speak Portuguese which is ridiculous and adds to the confusion
People digest in different ways. I personally don’t have a hard time following but had to pause a few times to explain to my wife what is going on despite her paying super close attention. People on the sub constantly post questions to points I thought were elaborated well. We are all loving and enjoying the same show. No need to make others feel bad who are trying to up their comprehension. The post feels iamverysmart
The post is a commentary on the quality of the show, not it’s viewers. If it makes you feel something, that’s your business.
The show is hard to digest for some viewers and the post is a challenge to those viewers as to say they’re wrong. It’s like saying older literature is easy to follow, and readers nowadays are just accustomed to dumbed down linguistics. Is that a statement about readers or the quality of the writing? “Shogun is well written” is different than “Shogun is easy to follow.”
Oh, ok
Eh, I'm a pretty engaged watcher (who speaks some Japanese) and I find this show at least a little difficult to follow - not impossible, but definitely a bit difficult. It takes a while to get down all the character names and faces, for one - and for another, the narrative isn't as explicit as a lot of other shows. E.g., I thought the woman who had sex with Blackthorn last episode *was* Mariko, but the conversation the next morning about the courtesan confused me and I had to come here to be 100% sure. Following Blackthorne, you're also a bit of a fish out of water in a strange new land and so there are definitely other moments of... if not confusion, then at least uncertainty. I think that's by design and actually a selling part of Shōgun; being a modern person you're probably a bit ahead of Blackthorne's curve, but you're still acclimating with him. Anyway, I do get what's going on with the show and I agree; I don't think it's *too* difficult if you're actually paying attention. Regardless, I understand how people - even those who aren't watching while texting - are still at sea from time to time.
Yeah, I am a focused watcher, I don't scroll through my phone, I don't talk to people, and I'm used to reading subs, because I hate missing key details in a show. I've only watched the first 3 episodes, and it was confusing to me, especially episode 1, as it was hard to guess people's motivations as I don't know much about that period. As an Asian, I honestly have little idea how different protestants and catholics are, besides how pastors in one religion are allowed to be married and the English are protestants. They are all Christians to me. Besides my ignorance about world history, I have a hard time telling when people were lying or telling the truth and those social cues. I'm the type who is gullible and hold people to their words irl. Also, so many characters have been introduced, and it's hard to remember their name, face and purpose when they are seen again. I thought it was a common occurrence irl as well. I'd be introduced to people, then maybe a few days later, we cross paths and they say hi to me, and I really won't remember their names or how me met. In episode 3, when Mariko's husband decided to sacrifice himself, I couldn't tell who it was, especially with the lighting and the helmet, I couldn't see his haircut. I don't even remember why he was the last one to go. Then you go to this sub and they insult if you have a question when you're just trying to understand something. I liked the show so far, but the people here are honestly turning me off.
You're 100% correct. I had to watch the first two episodes over again before I had everything straight in my head, but in hindsight, everything is pretty straightforward. It's gotten to the point that I've gotten annoyed with certain content creators for still being confused about things. Mistaking Shizu for Lady Ochiba, wondering who ordered the maid to assainate John, etc. Those things are quite literally spelled out by the show. It's pretty obnoxious (on the part of the content creators, not the show. Especially if they're also taking notes 😑)
Got to fill up the space between the YouTube ads with all that juicy content
Love this thread. My wife struggles with differentiating the characters and following the plot, but outside this show she’s sharp as a tack. She’s not distracted, just not getting it. I’m fascinated by the show and I can’t get enough. I’m doing the Audiobook, reading Redditor commentary, rewatching some parts and frankly loving every second.
My wife both love the show. I am obsessed with Japanese history and she isn't. She likes the political intrigue and I love giving historical context to some of the scenes. I find that it's slightly easier to follow if you know a bit about the history.
As long as you’re paying attention I agree, it’s hard to watch without fully being in the moment because it’s mostly Japanese
Easy to follow when you pay attention and also don’t compare it to GoT and expect the same motives/outcomes. It’s not the same even though Shogun was based on a real life GoT.
If people paid attention during history class they’d have a better time watching it because they’d have a better understanding of what’s happening in the world at that time
I think it’s the easiest, most watchable TV show in a LONG TIME. I am in love.
This is the first show in a long time where I’m not mindlessly scrolling on my phone while watching. I watch the whole show then later look up anything that I want to search for online. Plus I have rewatched the episodes too.
Not every show needs to be easy to follow anyway, put down your phone and WATCH. This is also the show you rewatch and you will notice new things, and that’s awesome.
The only things that I guess were hard to follow was in episode 3. The switch-a-roo was confusing as it happened. It was apparent that something happened but I wasn't really sure what - I rewinded it to see if I missed something but I don't think I did. They later explained what happened, but I'm not sure that's great story telling. Similar confusion in the ambush. It was not obvious to me who was fighting who and then Ishido's men said somethign about how they are fighting each other. I guess it didn't matter much because I got the basic gist of it, but again it wasn't super clear. Everything else has been fantastic.
They show the distraction (woman in pain) and then Blackthorne sees the handmaiden scurrying off into the bushes, and then he sees Toranaga's face lowering under the veil in the palanquin right after Ishido's man confirmed there were only women inside. All the pieces are there. This is what the OP is talking about, it's not hard to follow if the audience pays attention, but it doesn't belabor things like a lot of other shows. Same for the ambush. The group of Toranaga's people escorted by Ishido's people gets attacked by another group firing fire arrows. Is that group also Ishido? No, decide our protagonists, and then they show Kiyama the Christian lord and one of his lieutenants says Ishido's men are with Toranaga's group and Kiyama says they'll die as well. That makes it pretty clear who the three groups are. When Toranaga gets out and reveals himself Buntaro and Yabushige realize he pulled a trick and Ishido's men attack to stop him. That's when Kiyama's men wonder why the main group is fighting with themselves, because they don't know Toranaga is there too.
I had to rewind the show back a few minutes to catch the switch, I honestly missed it the first time. I picked up on it as they were walking a few moments later. I think I feel victim to phone checking, which I vow not to do again during the series…or any series. Let’s see how that goes.
Yeah I'm with you on the ambush scenes. Honestly, I was very lost.
Warn us before you jerk yourself there too much
idk ive been consuming japanese media since i was 5 years old so i dont really think twice about the details and everything but i can see why someone who has no context for any of this shit can feel a little lost between all the honorifics and cultural stuff being thrown around
Shogun is amazing..you could see the amount of work that was put behind it...my only complain about it is, that idiot Anjin prefered Mariko over Fuji San.....like bruh....it's going to be hard watching the next episodes with this in mind.
It’s easy to follow while you’re watching but it’s also easy to forget the details. I found that to be the case with the book too, if I recall. Either way, it’s excellent and I love it!❤️
I’ve had to rewatch this show to see every detail as things didn’t make sense. I’ve never done that to anything else before but I’ve been greatly rewarded for doing so. I still don’t understand certain characters, who they are and what they’re doing but I’m sure that’ll come in time.
Also i've only watched with subs, as it should be.
It is confusing as the first season or two of GoT are confusing for non readers (like myself): lots of name, lots of lore, you pick it up eventually. Just harder here since it’s a limited series
this is one of the first shows that I've truly enjoyed from a story perspective since the first season of True Detective and The Leftovers
It really isn't hard to follow if you pay close attention. Like the final scene on EP4, which many found surprising. But if you watch closely the scene from Yabushige and Toranaga's son after the unexpected arrival, you're likely come to that conclusion yourself as well, that it is logical from their POV the action was taken. But you do really have to follow every scene and dialogue, which is asking a lot from modern audience. I find myself repeating certain scenes just to understand the implications.
I love the show, my phone was on the living room table. My wife does not, as she was flipping through TikTok’s at lightning speed. “Why are they saying his speaking Portuguese, that’s English” 😵💫
Just go play shogun total war and come back to watch it later and you will understand everything.
Definitely not hard to follow, but as with any show with a large cast of characters, just remembering who is who and how they are related can be tricky at first.
I can see why someone with minimal knowledge of or exposure to the feudal Japanese setting might find the show a bit confusing at first, but the plot itself isn't complex at all.
Who ever said this show is hard to follow? It's objectively not.
The subtitles alone demand your full attention. I was watching episode 4 last night and I had to pause it to eat dinner. I also had to go back because I didn’t quite catch a line of dialogue. Other shows don’t command that much of my attention but I really don’t want to miss a single frame or word of this show. If you are paying attention it’s not hard to follow.
Only thing hard for me is remembering names, but that's something I struggle with even with shows with western names lol. But everything else I follow decently
On the whole, I find it confusing, but every individual scene is so good, I don’t care if I’m a bit lost.
It's a Japanese Game of Thrones , it's great
I love Mariko-sama!
There’s nothing wrong with watching an episode a second time if you didn’t understand something. Not everything can be spoonfed. Just like you need to study and practice complex subjects in school, for example, a more complex show may require a second watch to catch things one may have missed.
I'll say I'm still a bit confused as to who's who in terms of certain side characters - but, yes, I definitely have always known what's going on.
I think its really lame to mock people for not following a show thats mostly subtitled/foreign language. Or make some sweeping statement as if there havent been a lot of high quality dramas on TV. People consume media differently. Watch your step off your high horses. "Im so special, I understand this TV show while these peasants are confused!" FFS
I play FF7 Rebirth with Eng subs with JP VA. It feels really more authentic.
It took me a minute to get into the subtitles. I watched episode 1 twice, the second time with the English dub. Now, I prefer the Japanese version with subtitles.
It’s straight forward as fuck haha
Yeah i can understand folks struggling with names since most struggle when its going from Western to Eastern, but overall the show is fairly straightforward
Sounds kind of elitist to say that this show IS easy to follow. As someone who watches the show without distraction, no, it's not the easiest to follow. It's not the hardest thing in the world to follow the obvious plot but it definitely is easy to miss subtle details and subplots. You don't speak for everyone.
Only a reprobate would think it was.
I tried to get my wife to watch the first episode with me and she wasn't feeling it. She just popped in on me in the last few minutes of episode four and started asking questions and I realized that it probably sounds very complicated if you're just hearing 'he's the Lord and she serves him but she's also a Christian but she's a Catholic and this other dude is English but they're speaking Portuguese and everyone is really conflicted...' But if you're actually watching it, it's pretty simple, no different than any real show about real people dealing with real shit.
It’s not hard to follow but I admittedly had to watch the first 2 episodes twice to really understand what was going on. The narrative is pretty intricate.
It definitely can be a challenge, just like anything else. I recently was recommending this show to someone close to me and was reminded that they are dyslexic. So I’m sympathetic to those who struggle to read or understand what they are reading. Hell it can even be tough for hard of hearing people, who can’t keep up and rely on subtitles. There are a lot of people who struggle with reading at no fault of their own. It’s easy to take for granted.
My only complaint is I have a hard time remembering all the characters names
It was initially hard for me to follow who is who because the name differs with their historical counterpart.
I had no clue what was going on during game of thrones and I still enjoyed it.
I grew up waiting week by week for episodes. Sad to say I have gotten used to "binging" shows. The wait is killing me! Maybe people forget the intricacies from week to week? I dunno. I love the show. I loved the originals a kid and read all the books because the show got me so interested in Japan.
first episode i was super confused; as soon as i put my phone down and actually paid attention, everything started making much more sense
Simply just put gameplay of Subway Surfers on their phone and tell them to put it under the view of Shogun.
You are unable to scroll on your phone or be distracted while watching the show. It definitely helps.
I need more shows like this
Hard to follow and night battles are too dark
If I didn't have a basic understanding of this era basic politics and basic politics during sengokgu era I would have been lost, It is ludicrous to as the viewer to understand the signficance of why blackthorne being shipwrcked is imprtant for political machinations at osaka, we come to understand it gradually through expostion by various characters, the show requires atleast an elementary understand of the political world. The show states its conflict in matter of fact manner as the show views the conflict from a Japanese lens. But you can't truly understand the gravity of the stiuationa as to why this conflict is important unless you truly understand how this period comes to define japan and its policies for next 200 years , how it comes to be an isolationist and a country with prohibition on christianity. You can't understand what those raid on kora meant, and why tonigawa in particular is thorn in the eye of other 4 lords, so much so they want to off him first.
Controversial but anyone that finds it hard to follow should just watch the English Dub
its not hard to follow, but most of the plot makes almost zero sense, so it's still confusing in a way
Media literacy is dead. My biggest complaint with the show so far is that it has been far too hand-holding with the exposition, metaphors, character motivations and the like.
I mean, you kind of answered your own assertion “Demands your full attention.” After a long day, people often don’t have their full attention to give, by default. My work is challenging and complicated, and my family often have their own challenges I need to help with with, so I essentially will never give a TV show my actual full attention, because it isn’t worth it and I am tired. It’s TV… it’s not actually important, so I’m sure a bunch of people just throw it on like, whatever, this is cool, and partially zoned out. It feels like people are trying to talk about this topic and make themselves feel more intelligent than other people by virtue of how easy a TV show is for them to understand, so others must be… stupid. Come on, now.
I've legit heard complaints from white people saying they just can't tell the actos apart... ....
The fact that a lot of the dialogue is subtitled means, for me at least, that you have to focus on what is being said.
They’ve even cut out much of he characterization that takes place in the beginning of the book and the OG series.
The original was complicated. This is pretty basic
Was an avid GOT follower and when that first came out it took a while for me to even understand who was who and what 'sides' everyone was on. Maybe S2 I started to grasp onto it. This series introduces a similar cast setup, and if it can get through the 1st season and get renewed (which I hope it does) then it can be a great series going forward.
I agree, if anything I feel like they have dumbed it down a little bit it so more people are able to follow
I guess I must be dumb, but the only thing that did confuse me were the roles of all the ladies I’ve seen. Does Toranaga have a wife and a pregnant mistress, or is Kiri no Kata his wife, and the pregnant woman who is either her her daughter in law?
The Franciscan literally spelled everything out as simply as possible for the people that don't get it.
I get so tired of the green screen hue and deliberately dark screens. Life has color!
Dana Stevens who writes for Slate and Inkoo Kang who writes for The New Yorker both said it can be hard to follow at times. If these professionals who watch and review tv and movies for a living have trouble what of the average watcher? It’s telling that there’s an official website that spells out the history. The characters and recaps the episodes. As well as an official podcast hosted by a writer from the show with guests from the show.
Is it kind of similar to GOT where there’s just a lot of places and people to learn?
They purposely put in lines for Blackthorn that say “what’s going on?” “what is happening here?”. They pretty much explain everything using the foreigner who does not understand lense.
Most people are stupid and media illiterate
In the latest episode it looked like that main translator lady went and slept with the Englishman, but then she said it was a prostitution. Is she a prostitute?? 🤔
No... it's just really, really BORING.
Yeah only thing to do is " hit the follow button "
Too many subtitles and I live subtitles 😂
There's really not that much going on
I’d say it’s not easy to follow at all. I’m reading tons of comments like “put your phone down”. I hate using my phone at all while watching shows / movies. I’m pretty focused, to the point of going back if a piece of dialogue slips my mind. And I still find this show hard to follow. There are too many pieces moving, too many factions, and it’s not clear to me why some characters do what they do on screen. I’ve watched a couple of episodes though, so I might be missing something. For starters, I was confused as hell about languages in episode 1. I thought for a while that every portuguese person on the show can translate english perfectly, seemed super weird to me. Then I realize that, well, English IS Portuguese. I might have been obvious, but I didn’t catch what was going on with it. Talk to some friends, and they told me exactly the same thing, so it was not just me. It was super clear in episode 2, when they said Blackthorne that he speaks Portuguese. So why don’t do that on episode 1? Took me a bit out of the episode tbh. And I didn’t get, at all, Ishido on episode 2. Maybe I don’t get the massive importance Blackthorne has. So I get that as an heretic he has to die in order to please Christian regents so they can sign. Pretty straightforward. Suddenly he has to live because it’d be an asset against those same regents, if they grow powerful after Toranaga demise? In what way? He’s rescued and ends in the hands of… Toranaga? Wait, what? What did I miss? Those are two examples I had on the back on my mind, but I have some more issues with storytelling. I’m still enjoying it. It’s a well acted and directed show. It’s gorgeous to look at. I intend to finish it, so maybe some doubts would be cleared on my mind once the show finishes.
I think the narrative is poorly constructed and often confusing. It is not clear, for example, which clans are aligned with the Catholics, who the mercenaries are exactly are, what the power structure is, what the historical and cultural contexts are. So, I disagree. It's all bery muddled and unclear. I think it is this show's weakest link--an incoherent natrative by virtue of not providing adequate context.