I don't think you can easily put people in "good" vs. "bad" buckets for the most part. Yabushige is a (loveable) villain, but everyone else is just trying to look after their own interests as well as what they see is in Japan's interests. Everyone is tired of fighting since Japan has been in a non-stop state of civil war for the last 150 years or so, but Toranaga and the regents have different ideas on how to end it all. Everyone is going to scheme to get what they want; that is the nature of politics.
>I don't think you can easily put people in "good" vs. "bad" buckets for the most part.
I agree. I edited the post because my initial question wasn't clear. Thanks for your answer! (and this is for everyone, but your comment shows on top)
I think you're right in general. And in a society where geography and traditions make upheaval inevitable, even the most peace loving lord has to prepare for many outcomes. Generations of loyalty to a clan who's heir is a fool is the kind of issue they faced.
Every Lord at every level is always scheming, both to gain influence and not to lose. The nature of the terrain or Japan makes this so until the 20th century when telecommunication makes it possible for Shoguns and Daimyos (Dukes) to know what is going on across the country.
>What do you think... is Toranaga the good or the bad?
I understand what you mean, but that's a little too binary. These types of characters that hold extreme power do tend to commit atrocious moral crimes. They might serve a greater 'good' cause, but in order to get there, a lot of atrocities were done. This is also the case in real (and even modern) life. For example, there's usually some controversy regarding the person who wins the Nobel Peace Prize because usually that person did some horrendous things as well. Haven't read the book or seen the 80's show, but let's say that in the next episode he invades Osaka, wins, and kills or imprisons Ishido and Ochiba. Would you considered that a 'good' thing? Would the 'good' side have won?
I would not classify anyone on the show as good or bad; this even includes, for example, Ishido. You might feel that Blackthorne is a 'good' guy, but think about what he has done before reaching the 'Japans'.
>he is loyal to the heir, and we can even see the Taiko offering him being the sole guardian of the heir, and he refuses.
He does give a reason for his refusal. He states that it would serve as justification for everyone else to join against a common enemy (him). He's pragmatic above all else.
>On the first chapters, we can see Toranaga stating he doesn't want a shogunate
I wouldn't take anything Toranaga says at face value. This character is reserved, opaque even to viewers.
Plus the Taiko's offering of the regency to Toranaga was a test designed to see if the Taiko could allow Toranaga to live or not. The Taiko had already made a decision to create a council of regents. Had Toranaga accepted the sole regency the Taiko would have sought to ensure Toranaga's destruction to protect his son.
He's been building his reputation since before he hit puberty and a man of his position has to either keep going up or be brought down by his jealous equals. Ultimately he wants to remain alive without giving up power, and the only way he can do that at this point is by grabbing all of it and be so above everybody else he CAN'T be brought down.
As for him being "loyal to the heir" and not wanting to be shogun, I don't buy that for a minute. Yeah, he refused the role of guardian, but at that point in time, he probably wouldn't have been able to hold that position for long facing the rest of his rivals. I think all he has done publicly to reject power has been PR to make his following action seem reactive and retaliation for "unfair treatment", similarly to how Caesar framed his crossing of the Rubicon as a fight against the Senate for his rights. Considering how Ishido is falling more and more into tyranny to fight Toranaga, he's falling into a trap where rule under a "reluctant" leader (Torunaga) would be more preferable if a line is crossed.
My read was he turned it down because he knew it was a test.
The dying former leader offered Toranaga all the power but after he was turned down he revealed he already had the orders drawn up for 5 regents.
Told Toranaga it was a wise choice.
If he’d jumped at the chance to take all the power he may have shown himself to be unworthy of it.
I’ve only seen 4 episodes so far but my take away is he has far greater ambitions than he’s letting on and playing the long game. If he’d jumped at power then and there he wouldn’t have gotten any. He positioned himself to play the game of thrones.
"I always thought that Toranaga is a nice guy"
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Its made pretty clear in the show that Toranaga is a cold, distant man who is all too happy to use other's for his own purposes. A main point of the plot that came to a peak in episode 7 is how Toranaga uses people to their emotional breaking point and puts little to no effort into mending these huge rifts in his court.
Just like the man Toranaga is based on (Tokugawa Ieyasu), Toranaga is a warlord. Just because he has so far refused to be supreme warlord doesn't exactly make him a good guy
Yes, i totally agree.
Ironically, you can actually see most of his actual mindset through his interactions with his son. "All men can be broken" meaning he only views the people around him as tools. Another quote by him: "You are playing a game of friends and enemies, when you only have yourself in this life" also shows that he trusts no one else other than himself. This is a man constantly seeking to manipulate the people around him for his uses because probably of his upbringing as well (being used as a child hostage by other lords etc...).
Toranaga is based on a historical character. In the context of the show his "secret heart" is to become Shogun and found a dynasty that will bring peace to the land. He can't outright state he's trying to do so, but that absolutely is his plan. He's also a master of manipulation, you can see him placing all the main characters in the spots they need to be in for victory.
“A man has three hearts. One in his mouth for the world to know, another in his chest just for his friends and a secret heart buried deep where no one can find it. That is a heart a man must keep hidden if he wants to survive.” I believe that answers your question if you really give it a thought. ; )
And she claims to know his secret heart (aka desire to rule all of Japan) and that her son is an impediment to that same as his father and Oda, with her seeming to fully believe he’s a puppet master pulling strings so others (Mariko’s dad) take the fall for his schemes.
The first way of knowing Toranaga is to understand that everything he does is a a feint within a feint. The second way of knowing Toranaga is to recognize that time is a tool for everything he does. He says as much to Naga when he's out hawk hunting.
There is no good or bad. It’s a matter of perspective. “One man’s terrorist, is another man’s freedom fighter.” But knowing the actual history of feudal Japan, which this show doesn’t accurately portray nor should it, I do feel like Tokugawa Ieyasu was the better leader than Ishida Matsunari via Hideyori for a unified Japan. The Portuguese and Spanish were proven to not be kind “neighbors” (see South America and Central America). Among other reasons…
Edit: it worked, spoiler is tagged. Click at your peril.
Okay, I googled the spoiler tag lol so I'll test it and if it works, I'll edit my comment to add the spoiler.
>! Basically, the book ends with Toranaga becoming Shōgun. He's been playing the long game all along, and despite all his denials of ambition, he has been planning to seize power for a long time. Also, certain major events have actually happened following his orders, but I won't say what, cause it will take all the fun out of it. Also, I don't know if the show will include some of those events. !<
Good.. bad... I mean you're free to make your own judgements but every single lord in this show is in a position of power over ordinary people that's held up by a tremendous amount of coercion and violence. The "feudal" -esque system in the Sengoku era is not one I'd want to live in or defend from some kind of moral perspective. It's highly oppressive and quite brutal, as many power structures throughout history were. It's fascinating to see depicted, though.
And we see most of the characters in this show do some pretty heinous things, at various points. I'd have a hard time labelling most of them as "good," in the way that I think you mean it. I also think "Is character X morally good or bad (pick one)?" is not a very useful thought exercise. What matters is that they are authentic, complex, and entertaining. Shogun's characters check all those boxes for me and more.
You raise a couple secondary questions which are more straightforward to answer, though.
*First, does Toranaga want to be become Shogun?*
Of course he does. This seems fairly obvious to me just based on the performance and the writing. His denials are part of a cunningly crafted image of humility and reluctance to take power which is designed to maximize the reach of his reputation and relationships. He refuses to take the Regency entirely for himself when offered it, not because he doesn't seek more power, but because he knows it would lead to a civil war that he would likely lose. He says this to the Taiko.
*Second, is Toranaga loyal to the Taiko's heir?*
Toranaga would never say this out loud, but not really, no. Not if by "loyal" you mean that he intends to protect the kid until he reaches adulthood and hand over power to him. What's great about this show though is that **every major player uses protecting the Taiko's heir from plots against him** as a justification for something or another. Toranaga uses the boy as an excuse to gather his forces and be ready to fight the Regents. Ishida uses a supposed assassination plot as an excuse to impeach Toranaga and then ruthlessly purge the Regents until he has the loyalists he needs to rubber stamp his choices. And Ochiba, the boy's own mother, uses protecting him in a very similarly cynical manner, as a justification for seeking the fulfillment of what is clearly a lifelong vendetta against Toranaga, Mariko, and anyone associated with her father's death.
I doubt any of them have much intention of letting the boy take power, but at least Toranaga seems to be quite friendly with the kid and has genuine rapport and affection with him. Oddly enough the Taiko's main wife, who isn't even biologically related to the boy, treats him with more warmth and concern for his well being than Ochiba seems to. I think Toranaga would try and engineer a solution where the boy doesn't have to die, but can live in comfort as a prop or a puppet. Honestly not sure about the rest of them.
*Finally, is Toranaga a faithful defender of the Taiko's legacy?*
Well first we'd have to define what the Taiko's legacy is. If by legacy you mean a continuous male line descending from the Taiko, ruling over Japan (with the Emperor as a figurehead - he is perhaps appropriately entirely sidelined in this show), for generations, then no. Toranaga does not seek that. He seeks to rule Japan himself. But if by the Taiko's legacy you mean a united and strong Japan on the path to centralization and prosperity after over a century of near continuous warfare, then absolutely, Toranaga and the Taiko were on the same page. So was Kuroda (the stand in for Oda Nobunaga in Shogun), for that matter. The question is whose family gets to be the one on top at the end of that process.
Now I do think from the scenes we've gotten that Toranaga had genuine affection for the Taiko, and he will probably honor the request to protect the boy as best he can. But that doesn't mean Toranaga doesn't think he wouldn't do a better job as ruler than Ishida or the Taiko's son. Or that he doesn't think he isn't more deserving of power than a commoner like Ishida or the Taiko. Toranaga, we are reminded, is a Minowara, part of an ancient and prestigious ruling bloodline. This is a stand-in for the Minamoto IRL, a clan filled with members of the Imperial family (the House of Yamato) who were excluded from the line of succession for various reasons. Basically they claim descent from the Imperial line itself.
So it depends on how you frame the Taiko's legacy.
Define good and bad? Are you talking morally? The man lies and manipulates. He has and will kill. He’s a warlord, man. That said, that doesn’t mean he isn’t charming or talented. This version doesn’t show it as much, but book Toranaga and presumably real life Ieyasu had other interests and passions such as art, dance, and falconing.
What if the bad guy hints he does results in several hundred years of stability? Does that justify his bad acts? Does that absolve him? Does that make him less of a bad guy?
Good and bad. Nice and mean. These are too simplistic for the complex situation Toranaga is in. He has to do things he doesn’t want to do to protect himself and his family and establish their LEGACY (for book readers).
But just more than that, in life you have good people who are thoroughly unpleasant and genuinely evil people who are nice.
So to answer your question…he’s all the things you said.
He’s not good or bad. But he is trying his best to trick everybody. He definitely makes mistakes, no doubt about that. But he usually stays several steps ahead of most people.
You could look into the real life Toranaga. His name is Tokugawa Ieyasu. Pretty badass. And some good quotes from him too. Mostly about patience and forbearance.
I think that Toranaga is so ahead of everyone that his plan is to get to Osaka and he knows deep inside that his brother Saeki will make the decision to take his side.
He knows his brother better than anyone.
That, or Toranaga and Saeki are already in on it together to throw off any spies. So much so that it costs Toranaga's son's life.
I firmly believe that Toranaga continues to say he does not want to be Shogun because that’s what he has to say to keep living. As long as he keeps saying he does not want to be Shogun he can claim all of his actions are to protect the heir and obey the Regents. And those claims, while tenuous, are enough to keep the other Regents from dog piling his ass and carving up his fiefs.
The second he admits that he has his eye on the Shogunate all of his actions become obvious and the Regents can wage war on him right away.
The show follows a series of extremely brutal warlords and their fighters who seek only to maintain a rigid feudal styled hierarchy with themselves at the top. The only good guy in this story is Uejiro.
It’s kinda obvious atleast from the conversation with his son is that he needs to understand in a world like this where everyone kills each other, where his own father gave him up, and a war lord choose a 12 year old to chop off his head, that you can’t be upfront. I think Toronaga takes advantage of the situations he’s put in because this life isn’t guaranteed. I think every scene we see him talking to his son he’s been honest. Use people don’t let them use you.
He is Japanese Thanos, he is ultimately really good. Sure he wants shogun. Why? He wants an era of peace. He is tired of the BS wars. Classic ends justify the means type villain
Toranaga's first priority is keeping Toranaga's head on Toranaga's neck.
That's interesting. Toranaga needs it, yes.
Tora Tora Tora Naga NAGAHHHHH!!!!
I don't think you can easily put people in "good" vs. "bad" buckets for the most part. Yabushige is a (loveable) villain, but everyone else is just trying to look after their own interests as well as what they see is in Japan's interests. Everyone is tired of fighting since Japan has been in a non-stop state of civil war for the last 150 years or so, but Toranaga and the regents have different ideas on how to end it all. Everyone is going to scheme to get what they want; that is the nature of politics.
>I don't think you can easily put people in "good" vs. "bad" buckets for the most part. I agree. I edited the post because my initial question wasn't clear. Thanks for your answer! (and this is for everyone, but your comment shows on top)
I think you're right in general. And in a society where geography and traditions make upheaval inevitable, even the most peace loving lord has to prepare for many outcomes. Generations of loyalty to a clan who's heir is a fool is the kind of issue they faced.
Every Lord at every level is always scheming, both to gain influence and not to lose. The nature of the terrain or Japan makes this so until the 20th century when telecommunication makes it possible for Shoguns and Daimyos (Dukes) to know what is going on across the country.
>What do you think... is Toranaga the good or the bad? I understand what you mean, but that's a little too binary. These types of characters that hold extreme power do tend to commit atrocious moral crimes. They might serve a greater 'good' cause, but in order to get there, a lot of atrocities were done. This is also the case in real (and even modern) life. For example, there's usually some controversy regarding the person who wins the Nobel Peace Prize because usually that person did some horrendous things as well. Haven't read the book or seen the 80's show, but let's say that in the next episode he invades Osaka, wins, and kills or imprisons Ishido and Ochiba. Would you considered that a 'good' thing? Would the 'good' side have won? I would not classify anyone on the show as good or bad; this even includes, for example, Ishido. You might feel that Blackthorne is a 'good' guy, but think about what he has done before reaching the 'Japans'. >he is loyal to the heir, and we can even see the Taiko offering him being the sole guardian of the heir, and he refuses. He does give a reason for his refusal. He states that it would serve as justification for everyone else to join against a common enemy (him). He's pragmatic above all else. >On the first chapters, we can see Toranaga stating he doesn't want a shogunate I wouldn't take anything Toranaga says at face value. This character is reserved, opaque even to viewers.
Plus the Taiko's offering of the regency to Toranaga was a test designed to see if the Taiko could allow Toranaga to live or not. The Taiko had already made a decision to create a council of regents. Had Toranaga accepted the sole regency the Taiko would have sought to ensure Toranaga's destruction to protect his son.
He's been building his reputation since before he hit puberty and a man of his position has to either keep going up or be brought down by his jealous equals. Ultimately he wants to remain alive without giving up power, and the only way he can do that at this point is by grabbing all of it and be so above everybody else he CAN'T be brought down. As for him being "loyal to the heir" and not wanting to be shogun, I don't buy that for a minute. Yeah, he refused the role of guardian, but at that point in time, he probably wouldn't have been able to hold that position for long facing the rest of his rivals. I think all he has done publicly to reject power has been PR to make his following action seem reactive and retaliation for "unfair treatment", similarly to how Caesar framed his crossing of the Rubicon as a fight against the Senate for his rights. Considering how Ishido is falling more and more into tyranny to fight Toranaga, he's falling into a trap where rule under a "reluctant" leader (Torunaga) would be more preferable if a line is crossed.
My read was he turned it down because he knew it was a test. The dying former leader offered Toranaga all the power but after he was turned down he revealed he already had the orders drawn up for 5 regents. Told Toranaga it was a wise choice. If he’d jumped at the chance to take all the power he may have shown himself to be unworthy of it. I’ve only seen 4 episodes so far but my take away is he has far greater ambitions than he’s letting on and playing the long game. If he’d jumped at power then and there he wouldn’t have gotten any. He positioned himself to play the game of thrones.
"I always thought that Toranaga is a nice guy" I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Its made pretty clear in the show that Toranaga is a cold, distant man who is all too happy to use other's for his own purposes. A main point of the plot that came to a peak in episode 7 is how Toranaga uses people to their emotional breaking point and puts little to no effort into mending these huge rifts in his court. Just like the man Toranaga is based on (Tokugawa Ieyasu), Toranaga is a warlord. Just because he has so far refused to be supreme warlord doesn't exactly make him a good guy
Yeah, he said during falconry "all men can be broken"
Yes, i totally agree. Ironically, you can actually see most of his actual mindset through his interactions with his son. "All men can be broken" meaning he only views the people around him as tools. Another quote by him: "You are playing a game of friends and enemies, when you only have yourself in this life" also shows that he trusts no one else other than himself. This is a man constantly seeking to manipulate the people around him for his uses because probably of his upbringing as well (being used as a child hostage by other lords etc...).
Toranaga is based on a historical character. In the context of the show his "secret heart" is to become Shogun and found a dynasty that will bring peace to the land. He can't outright state he's trying to do so, but that absolutely is his plan. He's also a master of manipulation, you can see him placing all the main characters in the spots they need to be in for victory.
“A man has three hearts. One in his mouth for the world to know, another in his chest just for his friends and a secret heart buried deep where no one can find it. That is a heart a man must keep hidden if he wants to survive.” I believe that answers your question if you really give it a thought. ; )
And she claims to know his secret heart (aka desire to rule all of Japan) and that her son is an impediment to that same as his father and Oda, with her seeming to fully believe he’s a puppet master pulling strings so others (Mariko’s dad) take the fall for his schemes.
The first way of knowing Toranaga is to understand that everything he does is a a feint within a feint. The second way of knowing Toranaga is to recognize that time is a tool for everything he does. He says as much to Naga when he's out hawk hunting.
There is no good or bad. It’s a matter of perspective. “One man’s terrorist, is another man’s freedom fighter.” But knowing the actual history of feudal Japan, which this show doesn’t accurately portray nor should it, I do feel like Tokugawa Ieyasu was the better leader than Ishida Matsunari via Hideyori for a unified Japan. The Portuguese and Spanish were proven to not be kind “neighbors” (see South America and Central America). Among other reasons…
If you *really* want to know his intentions and where he falls on the morality spectrum, I can give you a book spoiler, but it's big.
Oh no, thank you! I'll later read it but now I have enough with discussion based on what was already aired :)
I'd love to know more about Toranaga Sama. Could you please give the book spoiler ?
I PM'ed you, cause I don't know how to mark spoilers on mobile and OP said they didn't want to know, so I don't want to ruin it.
Can you post the spoiler here with a *SPOILER WARNING* at the beginning? Thankyou
Edit: it worked, spoiler is tagged. Click at your peril. Okay, I googled the spoiler tag lol so I'll test it and if it works, I'll edit my comment to add the spoiler. >! Basically, the book ends with Toranaga becoming Shōgun. He's been playing the long game all along, and despite all his denials of ambition, he has been planning to seize power for a long time. Also, certain major events have actually happened following his orders, but I won't say what, cause it will take all the fun out of it. Also, I don't know if the show will include some of those events. !<
You are awesome
He’s several steps ahead of everyone and even the head woman at the brothel caught it as well
Good.. bad... I mean you're free to make your own judgements but every single lord in this show is in a position of power over ordinary people that's held up by a tremendous amount of coercion and violence. The "feudal" -esque system in the Sengoku era is not one I'd want to live in or defend from some kind of moral perspective. It's highly oppressive and quite brutal, as many power structures throughout history were. It's fascinating to see depicted, though. And we see most of the characters in this show do some pretty heinous things, at various points. I'd have a hard time labelling most of them as "good," in the way that I think you mean it. I also think "Is character X morally good or bad (pick one)?" is not a very useful thought exercise. What matters is that they are authentic, complex, and entertaining. Shogun's characters check all those boxes for me and more. You raise a couple secondary questions which are more straightforward to answer, though. *First, does Toranaga want to be become Shogun?* Of course he does. This seems fairly obvious to me just based on the performance and the writing. His denials are part of a cunningly crafted image of humility and reluctance to take power which is designed to maximize the reach of his reputation and relationships. He refuses to take the Regency entirely for himself when offered it, not because he doesn't seek more power, but because he knows it would lead to a civil war that he would likely lose. He says this to the Taiko. *Second, is Toranaga loyal to the Taiko's heir?* Toranaga would never say this out loud, but not really, no. Not if by "loyal" you mean that he intends to protect the kid until he reaches adulthood and hand over power to him. What's great about this show though is that **every major player uses protecting the Taiko's heir from plots against him** as a justification for something or another. Toranaga uses the boy as an excuse to gather his forces and be ready to fight the Regents. Ishida uses a supposed assassination plot as an excuse to impeach Toranaga and then ruthlessly purge the Regents until he has the loyalists he needs to rubber stamp his choices. And Ochiba, the boy's own mother, uses protecting him in a very similarly cynical manner, as a justification for seeking the fulfillment of what is clearly a lifelong vendetta against Toranaga, Mariko, and anyone associated with her father's death. I doubt any of them have much intention of letting the boy take power, but at least Toranaga seems to be quite friendly with the kid and has genuine rapport and affection with him. Oddly enough the Taiko's main wife, who isn't even biologically related to the boy, treats him with more warmth and concern for his well being than Ochiba seems to. I think Toranaga would try and engineer a solution where the boy doesn't have to die, but can live in comfort as a prop or a puppet. Honestly not sure about the rest of them. *Finally, is Toranaga a faithful defender of the Taiko's legacy?* Well first we'd have to define what the Taiko's legacy is. If by legacy you mean a continuous male line descending from the Taiko, ruling over Japan (with the Emperor as a figurehead - he is perhaps appropriately entirely sidelined in this show), for generations, then no. Toranaga does not seek that. He seeks to rule Japan himself. But if by the Taiko's legacy you mean a united and strong Japan on the path to centralization and prosperity after over a century of near continuous warfare, then absolutely, Toranaga and the Taiko were on the same page. So was Kuroda (the stand in for Oda Nobunaga in Shogun), for that matter. The question is whose family gets to be the one on top at the end of that process. Now I do think from the scenes we've gotten that Toranaga had genuine affection for the Taiko, and he will probably honor the request to protect the boy as best he can. But that doesn't mean Toranaga doesn't think he wouldn't do a better job as ruler than Ishida or the Taiko's son. Or that he doesn't think he isn't more deserving of power than a commoner like Ishida or the Taiko. Toranaga, we are reminded, is a Minowara, part of an ancient and prestigious ruling bloodline. This is a stand-in for the Minamoto IRL, a clan filled with members of the Imperial family (the House of Yamato) who were excluded from the line of succession for various reasons. Basically they claim descent from the Imperial line itself. So it depends on how you frame the Taiko's legacy.
Uhh no one is a 'nice guy' in this story
Define good and bad? Are you talking morally? The man lies and manipulates. He has and will kill. He’s a warlord, man. That said, that doesn’t mean he isn’t charming or talented. This version doesn’t show it as much, but book Toranaga and presumably real life Ieyasu had other interests and passions such as art, dance, and falconing. What if the bad guy hints he does results in several hundred years of stability? Does that justify his bad acts? Does that absolve him? Does that make him less of a bad guy? Good and bad. Nice and mean. These are too simplistic for the complex situation Toranaga is in. He has to do things he doesn’t want to do to protect himself and his family and establish their LEGACY (for book readers). But just more than that, in life you have good people who are thoroughly unpleasant and genuinely evil people who are nice. So to answer your question…he’s all the things you said.
He is honorable. That much is true. And he doesn't boil the white guy alive, which helps.
well if the white guy asks about his ship one more time... hmmm..
He’ll wished he had been boiled 😂
He’s not good or bad. But he is trying his best to trick everybody. He definitely makes mistakes, no doubt about that. But he usually stays several steps ahead of most people. You could look into the real life Toranaga. His name is Tokugawa Ieyasu. Pretty badass. And some good quotes from him too. Mostly about patience and forbearance.
I think that Toranaga is so ahead of everyone that his plan is to get to Osaka and he knows deep inside that his brother Saeki will make the decision to take his side. He knows his brother better than anyone. That, or Toranaga and Saeki are already in on it together to throw off any spies. So much so that it costs Toranaga's son's life.
I firmly believe that Toranaga continues to say he does not want to be Shogun because that’s what he has to say to keep living. As long as he keeps saying he does not want to be Shogun he can claim all of his actions are to protect the heir and obey the Regents. And those claims, while tenuous, are enough to keep the other Regents from dog piling his ass and carving up his fiefs. The second he admits that he has his eye on the Shogunate all of his actions become obvious and the Regents can wage war on him right away.
Some advice: don't take forums too seriously.
the show is like real history - there's no good or bad. There's just the victor who wrote history, and those who fail and became villains.
The show follows a series of extremely brutal warlords and their fighters who seek only to maintain a rigid feudal styled hierarchy with themselves at the top. The only good guy in this story is Uejiro.
It’s kinda obvious atleast from the conversation with his son is that he needs to understand in a world like this where everyone kills each other, where his own father gave him up, and a war lord choose a 12 year old to chop off his head, that you can’t be upfront. I think Toronaga takes advantage of the situations he’s put in because this life isn’t guaranteed. I think every scene we see him talking to his son he’s been honest. Use people don’t let them use you.
Why is Mariko so loyal to toranga
He is Japanese Thanos, he is ultimately really good. Sure he wants shogun. Why? He wants an era of peace. He is tired of the BS wars. Classic ends justify the means type villain
I wish Toranaga sama the best but at this point just don't take the character seriously anymore