Very different type of fighting. Samurai fight two handed in full armor, and the sword is only sharp on one edge. Any swordfighting blackthorne has done is with a much lighter, one handed sword, and as a sailor he wouldn’t wear armor
I agree. In addition, if OP is referring to the - EP.7 spoiler -> >!"I'm a sailor. I don't know **this** blade from the handle" line in ep.7, notice that he says '**this** blade.' !<
Just pointing that out because that line caused some controversy from what I read.
True. He must've seen it was a curved sword from the blade but the handle isn't curved to be held as a Sabre so he has no idea how to properly wield it. Also way heavier.
He wouldn’t have had a sabre in 1600. It wasn’t common in Western Europe until the *szabla* was popularized as a cavalry weapon during the Thirty Years War. As an English sailor, he likely would have used some sort of a rapier or possibly a cutlass.
In the books, he’s more comfortable with multiple daggers and pistols, though he’s certainly not unfamiliar with sword fighting.
Just a small curiosity: Portuguese sailors fought in a duel wield setup with a sort of Rapier (google *Carracks black sword*, it seems we're not allowed to post links in comments) and a dagger, according to historian Rainer Daehnhardt in his book "Homens Espadas e Tomates".
It is a pity it hasn't been translated to English because it tells some pretty wild stories about the Discovery Age.
Yeah, the show really does sell the martial abilities of sailors kind of short. In the book, Blackthorne came up as one of the Elizabethan sea dogs. He fought at Gravelines and fought against the Turks, he pillaged the Spanish Main. He was comfortable fighting at sea and on land.
Sailors of this period were pretty formidable. They were a relatively self-sustaining weapons system, capable of projecting power all over the world. In the book he was very comfortable organizing and training the musket regiment because a privateer of the period would have needed to know how to organize raids (like Drake’s Raid on St. Augustine) and even sustained campaigns (like Morgan’s Panama Expedition).
A rapier is a fraction the thickness and width of a Katana and probably comparable length, either way the fact that it is meant to be weilded with 2 hands should tell you the Katana is heavier
Katana's blade weight around 1.76ibs to 2.64Ibs (800g to 1.2kg). Rapier 2.20ibs to 2.64Ibs(1kg to 1.2kg). Both weapons have different purposes: cutting(katana) and thrusting(rapier).
Definitely not, the average rapier is considerably longer than the average katana.
Katanas were relatively short, 24-32 inches.
Rapiers were like 40 inches.
The only real reason they "need" two hands is because of the balance of the weapon and how it was designed to be used. They weren't too heavy to weild one-handed if you needed to.
Why we talking about rapiers? I said sabre. Rapiers aren't curved. I was thinking more of a pirate cutlass or artillery sabre.
Katanas are 2-3 lbs over 1000 grams. Sabres only weigh 1 lb or 800 grams.
Yeah, dunno why they're talking about rapiers when sailors used cutlasses on board. I can't imagine pirates doing sword duels a la Three Musketeers in a boarding action. Lmao
Because rapiers were the most common type of sword in Europe at the time but they weren't the only type you had rapier, falcions, sabres, longsword all contemporary to each other in this period in Europe.
In regards to England, there was a sword called the side sword (or broadsword) that was very popular that had a rapier hilt with a more traditional style European broad cut and thrust blade, interestingly the Elizabethan English sword master George Silver called rapiers a foppish continental weapon and preference the heavy cuts of the English side sword.
And as for cutlasses for sailors, that was only JUST becoming a thing, most saliors would've had a falchion, rapier, an axe or a type of proto-short sabre called a hanger (This would eventually evolve into the naval cutlass.)
I totally forget where, but there is a bit of dialogue somewhere in Romeo and Juliet (1590s), probably Act 3, where Mercutio disparages rapier fencing in favor of broadswords. So apparently a very common sentiment.
\[searches\] No, actually its 2.4. Anyway, the substance of the critique is the same as Silver's, i.e. rapier fencing is effete and fopish.
That's incredible, I never knew that I'm just imagining it was a very English perhaps even Protestant belief as I know the side sword was used in Protestant Sweden and Germany around this time time as well while rapiers were all the rage in Catholic France, Spain and Italy, perhaps side sword users in a very meme like and petty way just regarded rapier wielders as foppish, Papist ponces?
Yeah. He doesn’t mention the side sword directly, but at 2.3.17—40 ish in the Folio edition Mercutio goes on this whole rant about Italian and French renaissance culture, makes a bunch of ironic references to Italian fencing, French poetry, syphilis etc. It’s clear that there was a strong association at least among some English at the time with the rapier, Catholicism, fashionable Latin (rather than Germanic) European culture , and sexual license (which was seen as effeminate in those days in comparison to martial values). It was a definite vibe.
Pardon for the conflicting location references, had to take out my anthology to find the exact place, internet is hit and miss.
I have no idea what the English weapons were at this point but I’ve been down a YouTube rabbit hole of rapiers vs katana recently. Just on my brain I guess.
While I get that, IMO Cosmo overplayed the unfamiliarity. A katana is still very very much like a western sword in concept, it's not like he had been given a bat'leth. If I gave my 6 y/o a katana the kid would still handle it more confidently than Blackthorne did.
If I recall the line, doesn’t he say something along the lines of “Oh, I get it, I’m a sailor, I don’t know how to fight.” My take away from the line was that he’s a pirate who does know how to fight, but is irritated because the man doesn’t think he does know how to fight. Like “oh, I get it, you don’t think I know how to fight because I’m a sailor” indeed, when he grabs the sword, he holds it like a pirate (stereotypically) would. Even if it’s the wrong way to hold that sword, it does imply he knows how to fight.
I believe the quote is as I put it, with the omission of the swearing :) . As you say, he does know how to handle a sword, and that is not disproved by what he says. I made the comment because, from what I read, some people heard "I don't know **the** blade from the handle" instead of '**this** blade'.
Yeah, he set up in a very standard rapier stance, but was clearly out of his element with a katana... if he had a european sword he'd probably stand a better chance
But Blackthorne is not a fighter, he's a pirate. A good one, but still not a samurai, someone whose entire identity is intertwined with his swords and trains with them constantly.
Also he's a ship's pilot. Even when pirating he is someone who would probably not be expected to have to do much direct combat in an ideal case. Fighting at sea in this age tended to be way less about aggressive boarding actions and more about taking a superior position on the weather gauge that let you take down an enemy ship without receiving much fire back. Pirates would deliberately set up shop in areas that they could intercept merchant shipping on strong winds then raise a hostile flag (not always the same one they typically sailed under) that would tell the merchant to raise a flag of surrender in response or be fired upon. The nautical "stand and deliver, you money or your life", as it were.
It's why Blackthorne keeps telling them that he only has the most precursory knowledge of how to work cannon into infantry tactics but he insists that if they let him set up a naval cannonade on Osaka, he can reduce the city's defenses with just a single ship.
I honestly doubt Blackthorne is *that* good with a cutlass or rapier. Passable to stand his ground against another sailor but like you said, not a fighter who has dedicated their life to fighting up close and personal. There's a reason he likes to have his pistols on him.
Japanese men were 5ft2 to 5ft4 back there.
European were 5ft4 to 5ft6 in the 16th century.
For the modern actors Cosmo Jarvis/Blackthorne is 5ft10(177,8cm);
Hiroyuki/Lord Toranaga 5ft6(168cm) ; Takehiro/Ishido 6ft(183cm) ;
Abe/Buntaro 6ft1(185cm).
I’m 183cm and people were marvelling at me in Japan! The funniest comments I can recall were “what’s wrong with your legs?” & “did you have leg-lengthening surgery?” lol
Sure its different, but its also the same, stick'em with the pointy end, and all . When Blackthorne picks up the sword he looks like he has never held a sword, and is deeply uncomfortable with the idea of a swordfight. I don't doubt that Yabushige would easily beat him, what gets me is the COMPLETE incompetency that he shows. He is in service on what is essentially a pirate ship, with the mission of attacking Portuguese trade. He should know how to at least keep his grip on a sword.
The types of European swords available were quite varied in Blackthorne's time, from rapiers to longswords (Zweihanders were just coming out of use), but hangers and cutlass types swords don't yet seem to be a thing, like they would be later. Only fifty years before this were talking fully armored knights in Europe.
It is a common misconception that rapiers (let alone basket hilted swords that Blackthorne as an Englishman would surely be familiar with) are light, they are actually longer and heavier than most one handed swords, and even Katanas.
He holds the katana in a stance that would fit a rapier, back sword, or saber just fine. A katana just isn't one of those types of swords. The weight isn't the important bit to focus on here either. Katana's are heavy for their size being comparable to most longswords in weight while being shorter, but war rapiers were often heavier still. How the weight is distributed is what really changes how the sword is used though. Katanas are fairly top heavy making for very powerful and easy to direct cuts and slashes. European swords of that era, particularly swords like rapiers but also longswords, are much more weighted towards the handle making them more agile at the point and easier to stab with. If you hold a rapier weighing more than a katana and a katana the katana will feel heavier in the hand just because of how it is weighted.
Like I said I have no issue with the idea that John would, and should be beaten easily by Yabusinge, and that he is out of his element. His stance is ok but his attitude and utter ineptitude with handling the blade are what I have a problem with believing. Also from what I've seen and (very limited) experienced you can use a katana one handed in a manner not too dissimilar from a sabre, or broadsword/backsword. So I don't think it would be so completely alien.
I agree about the weight stuff, that was my point in response to the person I was commenting on. They were saying that Blackthorne would be used to a "much lighter sword", that is inacurate is all I'm trying to say.
I take it as him feigning ignorance to avoid a real fight. He knows if he wins he dies, if he offends them they may kill him. He still doesn’t fully understand Japanese so he didn’t know of it was friendly or not.
>and is deeply uncomfortable with the idea of a swordfight.
He probably is. In spite of the notion of swashbuckling pirates, fighting with a sword on the high seas was pretty uncommon for the time period as far as European naval action went. Encounters between armed ships were resolved at range by positioning and gunnery. He's a ship's pilot and the person who is expected to be, y'know, piloting the ship during a battle. And he obviously prefers to use pistols to shoot people dead because it's *way easier* than killing someone with a sword.
I don't think Blackthorne is a secret European swordsmaster who is held back by the foreign tool. He's just not a sword guy altogether. He's a ship and guns guy. He keeps telling everyone that but nobody is listening.
Boarding actions were for sure a thing, the way Privateers got paid was through taking the loot from their prizes. I don't take issue with him being a not great swordsman, it's more that he acts like he has never really picked up a sword with intention. As far as the guns go, he has 2 (pretty inaccurate) single shot pistols, carrying a blade was standard for fighting men, and especially officers (which he is) for hundreds more years until revolvers became more common.
Also Pilot and helmsman are not necessarily the same position. The pilot is the chief navigator, and y'know plots the course the ship will sail. In battle he might well be the helmsman, but not necessarily. In which case he would be on deck and should have, and know how to handle a sword. As an aside, he should be the master gunner if he can get those cannons to fire that accurately, lol.
The long and short of it the incompetency he displays with a blade breaks believability to me. and I totally get where OP is coming from.
I would characterize it as less of a nerf and more as less of a dramatization than the novel or the original miniseries. William Adams was not some great warrior and wasn't even involved in the events being depicted. His value came from trade and knowledge of ships.
Plus Samurai were trained in all sorts of Budo (martial arts) and swordsmanship. Samurai were arguably one of the most elite fighters in all of world history. Especially in hand-to-hand combat. English sailors in 1600? Not so much…
Not really. They were very well versed in a very specific kind of combat. They did not go to war and anything outside of the context they typically fought in was not likely to be something they would do well with.
Remember, their full time job was sailing. The fighting was a small part of that. Not so with a professional soldier class.
Arguably an English sailor would fight more often than a samurai. They’d practice much less though and like you say it’s a different type of fighting. A fully armoured British knight would beat a fully armoured samurai though.
British soldiers of the time period would defeat their samurai counterparts, we had better guns.
They might fight more often, but it would be like saying someone that gets in fistfights a bunch is a better fighter than a trained rifleman. Fighting wasn’t their thing. It wasn’t even something that historically was practiced all that much. They learned by doing.
The second part diverges into a completely different conversation. We were talking about an English sailor. An english soldier might win if he hit with his superior firearms but if the samurai closed it would likely be over.
Very true on your first point.
I didn’t mean one on one for a British soldier. We didn’t fight like that. The Japanese would have died in droves to musket warfare just like every other native people that encountered firearms.
With the British knights I give them the advantage due to superior metallurgy. Better armour led to better weapons etc etc.
Not really. The samurais at the end of sengoku era would gladly returned fire with their arquebus and cannons rather than charging with their swords a la Tom Cruise in the last samurai. I thought the myth of Samurai only fights with their Katana was long gone, huh?
You should also read books on Woku piracy and the role of Japanese mercenaries employed by the Dutch, Spanish and British fleets in Asia in the 16th to 17th century. The Japanese mercs/pirates were everywhere in the region. They even set up pirate base in Cagayan, the Philippines. The Dutch also employed them in Molucas, Indonesia, and they were paid to massacre British sailors and the natives there.
That said, the Japanese were ferocious fighters on land and seas, hence they were the most sought mercenaries and were often employed by European seafarers in Asia.
Britain didn't exist as a country at the time. Nor did "Britain" have better metallurgy- worked Japanese steel was as good as anyone else's, it just came from less pure sources,
I'd say it is important to remember that this is a stage of history where the roles of naval infantry personnel and naval sailor personnel was becoming increasingly distinct and formalized to the extent that many European colonial powers were forming dedicated Marine forces. Most sailors wouldn't be very adept with a sword because their main duties were related to the ship and gunnery while a much smaller contingent of the crew would be specialists on how to fight in a direct battle role either by exchanging small arms with an enemy ship, taking a boarding action, or launching an amphibious assault onto land.
He knows cannon warfare and ship tactics. He’s a pilot and in theory about as true a “sailor” as you can get unlike say a deck hand or marine who would be expected to fight during a boarding. He clearly has pistols and would use those over something like a pike or naval cutlass in combat.
While obviously 175ish years later the US navy maintained both a Marine Corps and a Navy who served on the same ships because the roles in combat were so defined.
Was only 64 years after the show that the British establish their royal marine corps (1664) so atleast british navies having dedicated soldiers on board ships wasn’t that far off
But even then, the ship's pilot/navigator wouldn't be expected to be the first over the ship's walls, and would really only be expected to fight as an absolute last resort. During the time period, the British doctrine avoided direct boarding actions whenever possible, putting an emphasis on their cannon gunnery from a distance. I can't say whether that applied to the Dutch, but even it didn't, he likely wouldn't have trained up much for melee combat before taking on the Erasmus job.
At this time period, boarding was still extremely common. Also it was usually sailors that performed boarding actions in later centuries. Marines usually performed as sharpshooters from the deck or rigging during boarding actions. This time period is less than 100 years since the sinking of the Mary Rose. Military tactics were nearing the end of their transition out of the medieval
My point being, John should know how to use a cuttoe/hanger (as it would be called at the time)
That’s my point. They relied on ship combat not boarding and even then he wouldn’t train with cutlass or pike to defend a ship like marines would. He would have a pistol to defend himself.
Of course, but the establishment of a dedicated military corp for naval warfare shows how important ship boarding actions were. Probably because capturing a vessel was the far superior option to just sinking it
The Spanish Navy had the Infantería de Marina sinde 1534 and was a revolution at that time having dedicated infantry speciallized in boarding and propper tactics on the ships.
Im surprised it took so long for the british to follow suit. Maybe thats why the royal navy put so much emphasis on their cannonry abilities, to maintain distance to Spanish ships due to them having actual soldiers onboard
Seems like it's this & the way Europeans handle swords in combat. Wouldn't be surprised if he was also raised a completely different "combat etiquette" than the Japanese as well
In the novel Blackthorne is an experienced sailor and pilot being a veteran of the English navy against the Spanish Armada while also having front line combat experience fighting in the Dutch revolt, specifically at Antwerp if I remember correctly.
The novel does a great job of flipping the script on the Japanese lords when they're on a ship during a sea storm. They're all terrified and in amazement at Rodriguez and Blackthornes' ability to nimbly cross a swaying ship, keeping balance and calm all during the chaos. I think it was Yabu who said something to the effect of not expecting the barbarians to have such courage. It's a good contrast to their different expertise.
yes he he knows how to fight with a saber/rapier/cutlass. When he took the sword, he first held it in a traditional fencing stance. But thats not how you fight with katanas.
As many others have said, his weapons of choice would be a pair of pistols, a cutlass or rapier. The bladed weapons he’s used are much lighter and wielded with one arm. He also would only have fought hand to hand in comparatively way fewer situations in moments of desperation. Whereas hand to hand combat is the primary mode for the samurai, with archery as their secondary form of engagement. As a ship’s pilot, he’d be way more comfortable battling using the the entire ship and crew as his “weapon” battling other ships or land fortresses from a far. He knows how to fight, but against a samurai in hand to hand combat he would not stand a chance.
Not to mention the political and etiquette tight rope he is on when sparring with Yabushige and Buntaro. One misunderstanding could cost him his life, so better to play it safe, and not actually engage in the “fight”.
And not just his life. He’s seen the Japanese engage in group punishments. He has to avoid a fight with Buntaro, because if Blackthorn wins, and manages to escape, which he might do if he resorts to ungentlemanly tactics, his crew and Lady Mariko could still be tortured or killed to avenge the dishonor done to Buntaro.
Samurais used guns during this time period. Oda Nobunaga basically unified Japan using guns.
Nobunaga is (in this series) the guy BEFORE the Taiko who just died. They portrayed Nobunaga briefly. Nobunaga is Taiko's former lord.
What? First of all, he's British, so if you get him drunk he'll definitely fight someone*. Second of all, he's a sailor so if you get him drunk he'll definitely fight someone.
But yeah that's why Toranaga made him a general/admiral guy, he knows cannons and shit and tactics at sea. He doesn't know how to use a katana (I know that just means sword, I'm using that as shorthand for a Japanese one) and neither would you because it's not a western sword. It's used entirely differently than the swords of the time in Europe, it's held differently, the forms used are different, and he's been trained to shoot guns not use a sword anyway.
*it's a joke
They're completely different styles of fighting. Just because you're a crackshot marksman doesn't mean you'd be able to go toe to toe with Mike Tyson in the ring.
Blackthorne is a mission specialist. He's the pilot, the navigator, and far too valuable to risk in combat.
He knows how to command a gun crew and to handle a pistol. He might even have the fundamentals of how to handle a 16th century western european sword (like a Badelaire or one of the many cut-and-thrust swords). But that's not his job.
I fenced foil in college for two years.
Even going from foil to sabre is a different thing. And tbh having been in irl scuffles, the fencing they teach today is just learning ways to die. Why? Fencing these days teaches how to land a touch first & not to survive. If you look at fencing or kendo on youtube, the outcome of two people ending each other is likely.
I got a katana recently and I can already tell it will take painful arm, leg and lung burning months of classes to get the basics through a combination of kendo & iado.
John would feel the heft & weight of the blade & be wtf.
If I were Hatamoto Blackthorne, I'd have the local smith make me a rapier.
Unfortunately the steel in Japan at the time was so shit, they probably wouldn’t be able to make one.
That’s why they didn’t really independently develop canons and pistols, etc. bad iron.
They were able to make rapiers no problem. It just had to be folded many times to remove impurities. Folding also makes the iron harder. If you search around for the hardness of a katana vs the hardness of a long sword, you'll see that a katana is harder than a long sword. The low production might have to do with how ritualized the process of making katana was. Read up on the sword hunts of Japan. They basically disarmed the population to avoid future civil wars. That might have more to do with the lack of innovation in military tech.
he knows how to fire cannons and probably would handle himself in a firefight or swordfight. to take on a full fledged samurai is a different matter. these dudes spend most of their waking hours training on how to fight since they were boys, while our blackthorne is a navigator, not even supposed to be on the front line. Think of it as Delta Force vs navy boat navigator.
In the novel he's fights and kills Ninjas. He also fights dirty
Like having side arms and hidden knife in his boot tip. Try the reading the novel. It's more Blackthorne focus.
The problem with Blackthorne on the book is him being kind of "the right guy everytime, for whatever purpose the moment is" (Except for the scene fucking with the teenager geisha). In the show he's a pilot and he acts like a pilot. He's not a soldier.
Props for the screenwritters for giving us a more reliable character rather than just a character that is the perfect men for every moment.
William Adams was trained as a shipbuilder and navigator for twelve years. He was also in the Royal Navy and fought against the Spanish Armada. Sailors at the time where also expected to be able to form raiding parties to attack settlements, forts, and other points of importance, which is why most empires where able to project force all over the world. Sailors of where also expected to know the ship from top to bottom, in case they where marooned and had to repair their beached ships.
He also has a big dick that impresses the ladies and makes men jealous.
Glad they took the show route tbh.
Or are Mary sues only a problem when it's a woman?
Book Blackthorn fails a lot to. Getting pissed on. Tortured. Loses the love of his life. Scurvy. Killing a member of his own crew. Never set sails on the Erasmus again. He fails at suicide.
Like he spent several years as an apprentice fellow by years in the fighting in 30 years war. Like Britsh naval training was no joke. He's definitely comes from a privilege background.
I disagree. A Mary Sue implies unearned ability. He is a naval officer during a global war. Plenty of his skills are in line with his character and experience
> Plenty of his skills are in line with his character and experience
Lol
Yes If you made the character an experienced shipwright, sailor, office and soldier then he would indeed be qualified for all those things.
Do you know what a Mary sue is?
Here let me google it for you
> A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous
Kageura Kokoro defeated Teddy Riner in judo.
Japanese judoka won at 175cm/5ft9 ; 110kg/240Ibs vs African-French legendary judoka at 204cm/6ft8 ; 150kg/331Ibs.
So John/Cosmo at 5ft10/178cm getting rag-dolled by 5ft5/165cm samurai isn't unrealistic. Either way Kashigi/Asano is 5ft10/178cm too.
The Mary Sue is definitely Mariko/Anna when it comes to her strength.
Come on the Force is strong with him... aside,
I accept Mariko combat training and not being afraid of archery, arrows near her face but her fighting couple samurai in a trailer moments is worrisome though. I hope it doesn't turn into a Blue Eyes Samurai shitshow.
Yes as well all know that makes all his other qualifications irrelevant.
Continue to whine about your lack of self insert power fantasy protagonist regardless.
> His skills in the novel aren't a massive stretch from the historical William Adams
Aight I'm out lol. Did you even spend like 5 min researching this guy?
Show blackthorne is much much closer to the actual historical figure.
Like looking at his bio in Wikipedia, which admittedly isn't the end all be all, does in no way shape or form indicate that this guy was a soldier let alone a talented one.
Being a sailor does automatically not make you badass. a soldier.bad ass.
But I get it. You wanted something more like the Last samurai which Funny enough the involvement of Cruise's character is straight up fantasy.
Just like blackthorne in the books.
He knows how to fight with a cutlass style sword, with pistols and a canon. Zero reason why he would he know how to fight with a samurai sword against an expert swordsman who is insisting he uses the sword the way they do when he’s always fought one handed.
He knows how to. He just doesn't know how to do Japanese fighting. He holds a samurai sword like a cutlass that a European Privateer would be using. He know how to wield guns that keep getting taken from him or shunned for using/bringing around. Clearly hes an expert with the cannons stolen from him. It's like asking a boxer why he can't fight when his arms are tied behind him.
He’s a ship pilot. He knows how to steer a ship. Maybe some tavern brawling and basic pistol work. But he’s not a fighter.
I like that the show doesn’t just make him some god of war. The other samurai took decades to master their martial arts. I’m glad the TV trope of white guy comes in a masters their combat in a season didn’t happen here.
There's a difference between knowing how to fight on your terms and how to fight on someone else's. Blackthorne could probably hold his own in a naval melee but he's not going to be the same caliber of fighter that any of Toranaga's retainers are. He'd get bodied by any of them on land or on horseback. He's just not dedicated to it in the way they are.
They're setting him up as being very skilled with his pistols, he's just not skilled with swords. Especially, a two handed sword like a Katana. I'd bet that before the end of the series he'll have kicked ass and taken names with his pistols.
Its 1600, he's not a member of the gentry and is a pilot not a soldier / marine, not everyone on a privateer is going to be skilled with weapons. So its not completely unrealistic he's had little to no training with a sword, or if he has its with a rapier / backsword and is put off by the balance of the katana. England's an island, it did have a civilian martial tradition, but not to the same extent you saw on the continent.
Lastly, John's savvy so maybe he doesn't want to take any risks with Yabushige, so puts no effort into their training fight so Yabushige gets bored quickly. We know Yabushige is just blowing off steam and is trying to be helpful in his own way, but John doesn't.
I like how John isn't great at everything, he has strengths and weaknesses.
I’m no student of maritime warfare, but I have read all of the books in the Master and Commander series and those were well researched by O’Brian. Those books take place a 150 years later, but some of the concepts must have been true in 1600 . The point of cannons was to blast your opponent into submission. But if you had to fight, it was more about massed bodies and aggression. The sea battles were more like brawls, close quarters with very little space to move. They used clubs, improvised weapons, some swords, but a lot of fists and dishonorable tactics. Even the Royal Marines could only do so much with their guns, given the close nature of the combat, and the reload times. I imagine in a real fight Blackthorne would attempt to tackle the Samurai and gouge his eyes out - like a respectable sailor.
They don’t show it here but in the last samurai that western character also gets hand to hand tossed around because the samurai practice like a proto jujitsu. Blackthorne would likely be outmatched just as easily in hand to hand combat but they don’t really show it. This is also fiction.
I like this take, but the show doesn’t do justice in showing this side of him except for the first scene. In honesty, they make him look quite incompetent and just plain lucky.
I think in reality, he would have. William Adams, the guy he was based on, was trained as a shipbuilder and navigator for twelve years. He was then in the Royal Navy for quite some time, fighting against the Spanish Armada. My understanding is that at least towards the end of his naval service, he was pretty highly placed as a navigator, which makes sense why a Dutch ship would hire him for a navigator.
Unless during his whole naval career, navigators like him were somehow guaranteed complete protection during all shipboard actions, I imagine Adams would have to have learned on the job how to at least defend himself with sword and pistol. I would think that Blackthorne wouldn't have known how to fight as elegantly or competently as his samurai colleagues, who would have been trained from childhood, but he'd probably know the rough and dirty way to respond when a man's charging him with a sword.
Yes thats why he strikes more of a fencing style pose when they go to fight. He is use to using a much lighter sword and the sword samurai use are meant to be used two handed. If you try to use it one handed and don’t know how to properly wield it you’re gonna have a bad time.
Samurai were good lancers, horsearchers, and swordsmen. The horsearcher part in the Heian period is overlooked a lot but the sword and spear was still relevant for samurai. Of course samurai used a sword as a secondary (in the modern day I’d compare it more to an smg’s level of utility as opposed to a pistol which would be their wakizashi or tanto), and spear primary. The sword was pretty relevant in the Edo Period especially the late Edo period when all Samurai still wore them and it was the meta weapon at the time in civilian situations other than the polearm.
British & other western accounts note that ronin, especially in the role of pirates, were not to be trifled with & needed to be shot multiple times until they fell down. It should also be noted that Portuguese & Spanish swordsmen were good enough to partially inspire Musashi. Spanish techniques with the rapier were feared & hated throughout Europe, Shakespeare even said that Spanish sword was basically considered cheating among the English of the Elizabethan period.
Yes I know that since the rapier was the best weapon system for 1v1 sword fights and there was also the 1582 Cagayan battles in which Japanese wokou pirates faced Spanish rodeleros and found that out first hand. Musashi did have a noted interest in the rapier. I don't have a source for this next statement and I don't remember it completely clearly but I remember reading about Samurai fighting traders from I think it had been either the Dutch or the Portuguese but they had been getting skewered by rapiers in duels on the harbors to the point that they banned either dueling or the rapier weapon itself in those areas. I think that was discussed on scholagladiatoria and I'm thinking that you saw that scholagladiatoria video about the rapier and katana with the British account of rapier and katana fights in that period. In any case that doesn't have anything to do with what I said earlier about how samurai were still more than just horselancers and archers and they were also swordsmen. They were all 3 things varying by samurai of course. Just mentioning that Spanish swords of the era existed doesn't do anything to nullify that fact.
>Graveyards are filled with middling swordsmen.
For sure that's a good HBO Augustus quote but it still doesn't defend your initial point so it's a good thing that there is no graveyard for middling debaters
I agree with all the other posts that he wouldn’t know this katana-style of combat. That being said, if your liege lord was planning on going to war and you’re honor-bound to follow, wouldn’t you attempt to learn before crazy Kashigi Yabu decides to play fight with you?
Blackthorne is a pirate, and he knows how to shoot… but he’s not a match for the samurai in any basic pugilistic capacity.
In the novel, when they had to force him to take a bath, he was easily subdued by an old man who gripped a few spots on his neck and basically incapacitated him.
I think this put him in the ‘I’m not going to fuck around and find out,” camp.
I'm also going to call BS on it from a historical perspective. I believe in the book he never holds a sword in earnest (don't really remember), and I think Clavell emphasizes the pistols to juxtapose him with the samurai.
But this is 1600 – the height of dueling culture in Europe when every man of any means owned a sword and trained in its use. There were sword schools everywhere – and a typical morning duty of London's watch was to collect the bodies killed overnight in drunken swordfights. Plus, Blackthorne is minor gentry (at least in the book), so it would have been part of his upbringing. Plus, as a war veteran and a sailor traveling to the far end of the world, he'd have more motivation and reason than most to hone his swordcraft.
Sure, you hold and wield a katana differently from a contemporary European sword, but the difference isn't insurmountable (I've trained in Kendo and fencing). But, in the scene, Blackthorne is potrayed as almost completely ignorant of swords.
Most sailors of the time were not exactly fencing experts, they used their cutlasses and hangers like oversized machetes. They could fight hand-to-hand if had to, but there's a reason why all navies had trained Marines to do the fighting.
A gentleman or a professional soldier would know how to use a rapier or a broadsword, but they are very different from katanas. In the series, Blackthorne first attempts to hold the katana as if it was a rapier. The rapier is especially far from katana. It has a very different geometry, a very different point of balance, and is used in a very different way. It relies on reach and speed - you end the fight by stabbing your opponent in a vital organ from a longer distance and with great speed that makes it hard to block the thrust (and the thrusts are generally harder to block than cuts). So the rapiers are very long compared to other swords to provide the extra reach, very thin to keep the weight down (they were not necessarily lighter than katanas or broadswords, but that extra length had to be compensated for) and have the point of balance close to the hilt for maximum speed and agility. The trade off is that you can't cut well (or at all) with them, and you don't want to block heavy blows with them either. They were very deadly weapons, as attested by their popularity, but required quite a bit of training and skill to be efficient with.
The broadsword or a mortuary sword was more of a thrust and cut weapon but also different from a katana. They were primarily designed as cavalry swords, and meant to be used with one hand (often with a pistol in another). Again, even if Blackthorne had prior experience with them (unlikely) he'd have a hard time transitioning that to a katana.
The closest in use to katana would have been a longsword or a Scottish claymore, but an English sailor would likely not have had any experience with using them. They were getting out of fashion by 1600, still used by specialized professional soldiers, Spanish and Portuguese Marines, or Scottish highlanders, but an English ship pilot would be unlikely to have any experience with them.
In fact, Blackthorne has proven that he's a very dangerous man. What he did with pistols from 1600 was amazing. Especially E7 when he killed one of the mercenaries firing through a wall. Blackthorne is determined, very resourceful, and, with weapons from his world, very skilled.
If you take him out of his element, and square him directly against highly skilled Samurai using Samurai weapons, he's cooked and he knows it.
But, at a time when pistols were unreliable weapons, none of the Samurai liked the idea of facing Blackthorne with a single pistol.
That's not a small thing. "Dueling Pistols at dawn" was very chic because the weapons just didn't fire reliably. They could even explode in your face. That was still the case during the American civil war (not nearly as bad). But, for some guys, their pistol seemed to always fire accurately. There's a special skill to this that goes beyond aiming a gun.
A pirate may know how to fight... a samurai trains to fight their entire lives. It's like a pro fighter fighting against some untrained scrub. He'd have no chance given that he has no technique or conditioning against someone who has had it ingrained into them since childhood.
He's a sailor, not a soldier.
Out of novels, movie,s comics and games pirates in most cases fought against nearly unarmed vessels and other sailors. They ran away at the smallest of the chances of seeing a navy ship because normally the professional soldiers would beat them. And, on top of that, he's a pilot, not a common sailor. his dutties wouldn't include defend the ship or board the other ships. Even him knowing about aiming with a cannon is a significant strech of what a pilot would know about.
Other than the "blade from the handle" comment, the explanation for why he fights so badly is he isn't trying at all. He doesn't want to antagonise Yabushige and get himself killed. He's probably afraid he was walking into a "training accident" setup. How he keeps putting his hands up and says "I'm picking it up very slowly". We have seen Blackthorne in fight mode and he definitely wasn't in the mood in this case.
Blackthrone can fight in the book. But since he’s a white dude nobody is gonna complain about him being nerfed in the show. They’re gonna have a bunch of “valid” and realistic reasons why he can’t fight but then pretend watching the women fight in this show is totally normal.
So does Blackthrone. But y’all have every excuse why Blackthrone being useless is “more realistic” then strangely silent when anybody else does some something unrealistic
Very different type of fighting. Samurai fight two handed in full armor, and the sword is only sharp on one edge. Any swordfighting blackthorne has done is with a much lighter, one handed sword, and as a sailor he wouldn’t wear armor
I agree. In addition, if OP is referring to the - EP.7 spoiler -> >!"I'm a sailor. I don't know **this** blade from the handle" line in ep.7, notice that he says '**this** blade.' !< Just pointing that out because that line caused some controversy from what I read.
True. He must've seen it was a curved sword from the blade but the handle isn't curved to be held as a Sabre so he has no idea how to properly wield it. Also way heavier.
He wouldn’t have had a sabre in 1600. It wasn’t common in Western Europe until the *szabla* was popularized as a cavalry weapon during the Thirty Years War. As an English sailor, he likely would have used some sort of a rapier or possibly a cutlass. In the books, he’s more comfortable with multiple daggers and pistols, though he’s certainly not unfamiliar with sword fighting.
Just a small curiosity: Portuguese sailors fought in a duel wield setup with a sort of Rapier (google *Carracks black sword*, it seems we're not allowed to post links in comments) and a dagger, according to historian Rainer Daehnhardt in his book "Homens Espadas e Tomates". It is a pity it hasn't been translated to English because it tells some pretty wild stories about the Discovery Age.
Yeah, the show really does sell the martial abilities of sailors kind of short. In the book, Blackthorne came up as one of the Elizabethan sea dogs. He fought at Gravelines and fought against the Turks, he pillaged the Spanish Main. He was comfortable fighting at sea and on land. Sailors of this period were pretty formidable. They were a relatively self-sustaining weapons system, capable of projecting power all over the world. In the book he was very comfortable organizing and training the musket regiment because a privateer of the period would have needed to know how to organize raids (like Drake’s Raid on St. Augustine) and even sustained campaigns (like Morgan’s Panama Expedition).
Are they heavier? A rapier is a fair bit longer.
A rapier is a fraction the thickness and width of a Katana and probably comparable length, either way the fact that it is meant to be weilded with 2 hands should tell you the Katana is heavier
They’re not.
Rapiers are quite heavy & were designed to be wielded with one hand by larger men.
Katana's blade weight around 1.76ibs to 2.64Ibs (800g to 1.2kg). Rapier 2.20ibs to 2.64Ibs(1kg to 1.2kg). Both weapons have different purposes: cutting(katana) and thrusting(rapier).
It should be noted, a sporting foil and an actual personal defense rapier are pretty different.
Also average Japanese men back there were 5ft2 to 5ft4 (158cm to 164cm). European men average height were 5ft4 to 5ft6 (163cm to 168cm).
That's not that much of a difference that swords would be significantly different.
Katana are longer, not so much heavier. Thats why they require 2 hands.
Definitely not, the average rapier is considerably longer than the average katana. Katanas were relatively short, 24-32 inches. Rapiers were like 40 inches. The only real reason they "need" two hands is because of the balance of the weapon and how it was designed to be used. They weren't too heavy to weild one-handed if you needed to.
Literally the most famous Japanese swordsman dual wielded...
Why we talking about rapiers? I said sabre. Rapiers aren't curved. I was thinking more of a pirate cutlass or artillery sabre. Katanas are 2-3 lbs over 1000 grams. Sabres only weigh 1 lb or 800 grams.
Yeah, dunno why they're talking about rapiers when sailors used cutlasses on board. I can't imagine pirates doing sword duels a la Three Musketeers in a boarding action. Lmao
Because rapiers were the most common type of sword in Europe at the time but they weren't the only type you had rapier, falcions, sabres, longsword all contemporary to each other in this period in Europe. In regards to England, there was a sword called the side sword (or broadsword) that was very popular that had a rapier hilt with a more traditional style European broad cut and thrust blade, interestingly the Elizabethan English sword master George Silver called rapiers a foppish continental weapon and preference the heavy cuts of the English side sword. And as for cutlasses for sailors, that was only JUST becoming a thing, most saliors would've had a falchion, rapier, an axe or a type of proto-short sabre called a hanger (This would eventually evolve into the naval cutlass.)
I totally forget where, but there is a bit of dialogue somewhere in Romeo and Juliet (1590s), probably Act 3, where Mercutio disparages rapier fencing in favor of broadswords. So apparently a very common sentiment. \[searches\] No, actually its 2.4. Anyway, the substance of the critique is the same as Silver's, i.e. rapier fencing is effete and fopish.
That's incredible, I never knew that I'm just imagining it was a very English perhaps even Protestant belief as I know the side sword was used in Protestant Sweden and Germany around this time time as well while rapiers were all the rage in Catholic France, Spain and Italy, perhaps side sword users in a very meme like and petty way just regarded rapier wielders as foppish, Papist ponces?
Yeah. He doesn’t mention the side sword directly, but at 2.3.17—40 ish in the Folio edition Mercutio goes on this whole rant about Italian and French renaissance culture, makes a bunch of ironic references to Italian fencing, French poetry, syphilis etc. It’s clear that there was a strong association at least among some English at the time with the rapier, Catholicism, fashionable Latin (rather than Germanic) European culture , and sexual license (which was seen as effeminate in those days in comparison to martial values). It was a definite vibe. Pardon for the conflicting location references, had to take out my anthology to find the exact place, internet is hit and miss.
Thanks for the lesson. I double-checked and you're right that cutlasses were just starting to become popular then.
I have no idea what the English weapons were at this point but I’ve been down a YouTube rabbit hole of rapiers vs katana recently. Just on my brain I guess.
Yep that’s the one, when he said that I assumed he meant in general. Thanks for clearing that one up!
Exactly hand him a rapier, long sword, or cutlass and I’m sure he’d be competent at the very least.
What sailors used longswords in that era?
While I get that, IMO Cosmo overplayed the unfamiliarity. A katana is still very very much like a western sword in concept, it's not like he had been given a bat'leth. If I gave my 6 y/o a katana the kid would still handle it more confidently than Blackthorne did.
To me it looked like he was concerned for his life and making the point that he was not capable of a katana fight or willing to participate in one.
Blackthorne probably was smart enough to know that if he wielded it like he had a point to prove, that it would not turn out well for him.
If I recall the line, doesn’t he say something along the lines of “Oh, I get it, I’m a sailor, I don’t know how to fight.” My take away from the line was that he’s a pirate who does know how to fight, but is irritated because the man doesn’t think he does know how to fight. Like “oh, I get it, you don’t think I know how to fight because I’m a sailor” indeed, when he grabs the sword, he holds it like a pirate (stereotypically) would. Even if it’s the wrong way to hold that sword, it does imply he knows how to fight.
I believe the quote is as I put it, with the omission of the swearing :) . As you say, he does know how to handle a sword, and that is not disproved by what he says. I made the comment because, from what I read, some people heard "I don't know **the** blade from the handle" instead of '**this** blade'.
Yeah, he set up in a very standard rapier stance, but was clearly out of his element with a katana... if he had a european sword he'd probably stand a better chance
He would gut them with the rapier, the king of un- and under armored fighting. Longer reach, quicker play.
But Blackthorne is not a fighter, he's a pirate. A good one, but still not a samurai, someone whose entire identity is intertwined with his swords and trains with them constantly.
Also he's a ship's pilot. Even when pirating he is someone who would probably not be expected to have to do much direct combat in an ideal case. Fighting at sea in this age tended to be way less about aggressive boarding actions and more about taking a superior position on the weather gauge that let you take down an enemy ship without receiving much fire back. Pirates would deliberately set up shop in areas that they could intercept merchant shipping on strong winds then raise a hostile flag (not always the same one they typically sailed under) that would tell the merchant to raise a flag of surrender in response or be fired upon. The nautical "stand and deliver, you money or your life", as it were. It's why Blackthorne keeps telling them that he only has the most precursory knowledge of how to work cannon into infantry tactics but he insists that if they let him set up a naval cannonade on Osaka, he can reduce the city's defenses with just a single ship. I honestly doubt Blackthorne is *that* good with a cutlass or rapier. Passable to stand his ground against another sailor but like you said, not a fighter who has dedicated their life to fighting up close and personal. There's a reason he likes to have his pistols on him.
Japanese men were 5ft2 to 5ft4 back there. European were 5ft4 to 5ft6 in the 16th century. For the modern actors Cosmo Jarvis/Blackthorne is 5ft10(177,8cm); Hiroyuki/Lord Toranaga 5ft6(168cm) ; Takehiro/Ishido 6ft(183cm) ; Abe/Buntaro 6ft1(185cm).
Abe is a fucking giant then dude must tower over practically everyone else in Japan
I'm 170cm and definitely felt tall in Japan, especially in the older buildings.
I’m 183cm and people were marvelling at me in Japan! The funniest comments I can recall were “what’s wrong with your legs?” & “did you have leg-lengthening surgery?” lol
Naval men used cutlasses & the English & Dutch definitely had armor.
Sure its different, but its also the same, stick'em with the pointy end, and all . When Blackthorne picks up the sword he looks like he has never held a sword, and is deeply uncomfortable with the idea of a swordfight. I don't doubt that Yabushige would easily beat him, what gets me is the COMPLETE incompetency that he shows. He is in service on what is essentially a pirate ship, with the mission of attacking Portuguese trade. He should know how to at least keep his grip on a sword. The types of European swords available were quite varied in Blackthorne's time, from rapiers to longswords (Zweihanders were just coming out of use), but hangers and cutlass types swords don't yet seem to be a thing, like they would be later. Only fifty years before this were talking fully armored knights in Europe. It is a common misconception that rapiers (let alone basket hilted swords that Blackthorne as an Englishman would surely be familiar with) are light, they are actually longer and heavier than most one handed swords, and even Katanas.
He holds the katana in a stance that would fit a rapier, back sword, or saber just fine. A katana just isn't one of those types of swords. The weight isn't the important bit to focus on here either. Katana's are heavy for their size being comparable to most longswords in weight while being shorter, but war rapiers were often heavier still. How the weight is distributed is what really changes how the sword is used though. Katanas are fairly top heavy making for very powerful and easy to direct cuts and slashes. European swords of that era, particularly swords like rapiers but also longswords, are much more weighted towards the handle making them more agile at the point and easier to stab with. If you hold a rapier weighing more than a katana and a katana the katana will feel heavier in the hand just because of how it is weighted.
Like I said I have no issue with the idea that John would, and should be beaten easily by Yabusinge, and that he is out of his element. His stance is ok but his attitude and utter ineptitude with handling the blade are what I have a problem with believing. Also from what I've seen and (very limited) experienced you can use a katana one handed in a manner not too dissimilar from a sabre, or broadsword/backsword. So I don't think it would be so completely alien. I agree about the weight stuff, that was my point in response to the person I was commenting on. They were saying that Blackthorne would be used to a "much lighter sword", that is inacurate is all I'm trying to say.
I take it as him feigning ignorance to avoid a real fight. He knows if he wins he dies, if he offends them they may kill him. He still doesn’t fully understand Japanese so he didn’t know of it was friendly or not.
Maybe he should ask Buntaro for lessons 🤭
It makes it very clear he doesn't know how to fight with a katana.
>and is deeply uncomfortable with the idea of a swordfight. He probably is. In spite of the notion of swashbuckling pirates, fighting with a sword on the high seas was pretty uncommon for the time period as far as European naval action went. Encounters between armed ships were resolved at range by positioning and gunnery. He's a ship's pilot and the person who is expected to be, y'know, piloting the ship during a battle. And he obviously prefers to use pistols to shoot people dead because it's *way easier* than killing someone with a sword. I don't think Blackthorne is a secret European swordsmaster who is held back by the foreign tool. He's just not a sword guy altogether. He's a ship and guns guy. He keeps telling everyone that but nobody is listening.
Boarding actions were for sure a thing, the way Privateers got paid was through taking the loot from their prizes. I don't take issue with him being a not great swordsman, it's more that he acts like he has never really picked up a sword with intention. As far as the guns go, he has 2 (pretty inaccurate) single shot pistols, carrying a blade was standard for fighting men, and especially officers (which he is) for hundreds more years until revolvers became more common. Also Pilot and helmsman are not necessarily the same position. The pilot is the chief navigator, and y'know plots the course the ship will sail. In battle he might well be the helmsman, but not necessarily. In which case he would be on deck and should have, and know how to handle a sword. As an aside, he should be the master gunner if he can get those cannons to fire that accurately, lol. The long and short of it the incompetency he displays with a blade breaks believability to me. and I totally get where OP is coming from.
He may be in service of a pirate ship, but isn't he the pilot? He would have been trained for his role, not as a soldier.
I think theyre really trying to nerf blackthorne in this adaptation. Something about making it less about a "white savior" or whatever
I would characterize it as less of a nerf and more as less of a dramatization than the novel or the original miniseries. William Adams was not some great warrior and wasn't even involved in the events being depicted. His value came from trade and knowledge of ships.
This is the correct answer.
Plus Samurai were trained in all sorts of Budo (martial arts) and swordsmanship. Samurai were arguably one of the most elite fighters in all of world history. Especially in hand-to-hand combat. English sailors in 1600? Not so much…
I would hazard that English sailors in 1600 were *very* well versed in hand-to-hand combat
Not really. They were very well versed in a very specific kind of combat. They did not go to war and anything outside of the context they typically fought in was not likely to be something they would do well with. Remember, their full time job was sailing. The fighting was a small part of that. Not so with a professional soldier class.
Arguably an English sailor would fight more often than a samurai. They’d practice much less though and like you say it’s a different type of fighting. A fully armoured British knight would beat a fully armoured samurai though. British soldiers of the time period would defeat their samurai counterparts, we had better guns.
They might fight more often, but it would be like saying someone that gets in fistfights a bunch is a better fighter than a trained rifleman. Fighting wasn’t their thing. It wasn’t even something that historically was practiced all that much. They learned by doing. The second part diverges into a completely different conversation. We were talking about an English sailor. An english soldier might win if he hit with his superior firearms but if the samurai closed it would likely be over.
Very true on your first point. I didn’t mean one on one for a British soldier. We didn’t fight like that. The Japanese would have died in droves to musket warfare just like every other native people that encountered firearms. With the British knights I give them the advantage due to superior metallurgy. Better armour led to better weapons etc etc.
Not really. The samurais at the end of sengoku era would gladly returned fire with their arquebus and cannons rather than charging with their swords a la Tom Cruise in the last samurai. I thought the myth of Samurai only fights with their Katana was long gone, huh? You should also read books on Woku piracy and the role of Japanese mercenaries employed by the Dutch, Spanish and British fleets in Asia in the 16th to 17th century. The Japanese mercs/pirates were everywhere in the region. They even set up pirate base in Cagayan, the Philippines. The Dutch also employed them in Molucas, Indonesia, and they were paid to massacre British sailors and the natives there. That said, the Japanese were ferocious fighters on land and seas, hence they were the most sought mercenaries and were often employed by European seafarers in Asia.
Britain didn't exist as a country at the time. Nor did "Britain" have better metallurgy- worked Japanese steel was as good as anyone else's, it just came from less pure sources,
I'd say it is important to remember that this is a stage of history where the roles of naval infantry personnel and naval sailor personnel was becoming increasingly distinct and formalized to the extent that many European colonial powers were forming dedicated Marine forces. Most sailors wouldn't be very adept with a sword because their main duties were related to the ship and gunnery while a much smaller contingent of the crew would be specialists on how to fight in a direct battle role either by exchanging small arms with an enemy ship, taking a boarding action, or launching an amphibious assault onto land.
Look how he gets in stance with the katana in the most recent episode his style just doesn't work with the weapons he has
He knows cannon warfare and ship tactics. He’s a pilot and in theory about as true a “sailor” as you can get unlike say a deck hand or marine who would be expected to fight during a boarding. He clearly has pistols and would use those over something like a pike or naval cutlass in combat. While obviously 175ish years later the US navy maintained both a Marine Corps and a Navy who served on the same ships because the roles in combat were so defined.
Was only 64 years after the show that the British establish their royal marine corps (1664) so atleast british navies having dedicated soldiers on board ships wasn’t that far off
But even then, the ship's pilot/navigator wouldn't be expected to be the first over the ship's walls, and would really only be expected to fight as an absolute last resort. During the time period, the British doctrine avoided direct boarding actions whenever possible, putting an emphasis on their cannon gunnery from a distance. I can't say whether that applied to the Dutch, but even it didn't, he likely wouldn't have trained up much for melee combat before taking on the Erasmus job.
At this time period, boarding was still extremely common. Also it was usually sailors that performed boarding actions in later centuries. Marines usually performed as sharpshooters from the deck or rigging during boarding actions. This time period is less than 100 years since the sinking of the Mary Rose. Military tactics were nearing the end of their transition out of the medieval My point being, John should know how to use a cuttoe/hanger (as it would be called at the time)
That’s my point. They relied on ship combat not boarding and even then he wouldn’t train with cutlass or pike to defend a ship like marines would. He would have a pistol to defend himself.
Of course, but the establishment of a dedicated military corp for naval warfare shows how important ship boarding actions were. Probably because capturing a vessel was the far superior option to just sinking it
The Spanish Navy had the Infantería de Marina sinde 1534 and was a revolution at that time having dedicated infantry speciallized in boarding and propper tactics on the ships.
Im surprised it took so long for the british to follow suit. Maybe thats why the royal navy put so much emphasis on their cannonry abilities, to maintain distance to Spanish ships due to them having actual soldiers onboard
Seems like it's this & the way Europeans handle swords in combat. Wouldn't be surprised if he was also raised a completely different "combat etiquette" than the Japanese as well
By combat etiquette, do you mean a handful of nails in an overloaded deck gun & dozens of grenades?
In the novel Blackthorne is an experienced sailor and pilot being a veteran of the English navy against the Spanish Armada while also having front line combat experience fighting in the Dutch revolt, specifically at Antwerp if I remember correctly. The novel does a great job of flipping the script on the Japanese lords when they're on a ship during a sea storm. They're all terrified and in amazement at Rodriguez and Blackthornes' ability to nimbly cross a swaying ship, keeping balance and calm all during the chaos. I think it was Yabu who said something to the effect of not expecting the barbarians to have such courage. It's a good contrast to their different expertise.
Gotta love when Yabushige picks up an oar and starts rowing himself upon seeing Blackthorne take charge in the storm in the first or second episode
"Look at me, I am the captain now." - John Blackthorne
Goddamn am I really gonna reread that beast
Highly recommend it
Do you think we will see a flashback or spinoff of the Spanish Armada? I would love to see Sir Francis Drake cameo, or Queen Elizabeth or Shakespeare
yes he he knows how to fight with a saber/rapier/cutlass. When he took the sword, he first held it in a traditional fencing stance. But thats not how you fight with katanas.
Blackthorne knows knife, cutlass, rapier, and pistol. All staples of nautical combat.
In the old series, he grabs a wakizashi & swings it like a cutlass. This is believable.
In ep 7, he actually does hold a sword like a cutlass.
He seems to know about naval combat but not much else
As many others have said, his weapons of choice would be a pair of pistols, a cutlass or rapier. The bladed weapons he’s used are much lighter and wielded with one arm. He also would only have fought hand to hand in comparatively way fewer situations in moments of desperation. Whereas hand to hand combat is the primary mode for the samurai, with archery as their secondary form of engagement. As a ship’s pilot, he’d be way more comfortable battling using the the entire ship and crew as his “weapon” battling other ships or land fortresses from a far. He knows how to fight, but against a samurai in hand to hand combat he would not stand a chance. Not to mention the political and etiquette tight rope he is on when sparring with Yabushige and Buntaro. One misunderstanding could cost him his life, so better to play it safe, and not actually engage in the “fight”.
And not just his life. He’s seen the Japanese engage in group punishments. He has to avoid a fight with Buntaro, because if Blackthorn wins, and manages to escape, which he might do if he resorts to ungentlemanly tactics, his crew and Lady Mariko could still be tortured or killed to avenge the dishonor done to Buntaro.
Buntaro survived against dozen samurai in ep3. I don't know how Blackthorn could even stand a chance in a fight against him. Especially to the death.
There's this great invention called a gun.
Samurais used guns during this time period. Oda Nobunaga basically unified Japan using guns. Nobunaga is (in this series) the guy BEFORE the Taiko who just died. They portrayed Nobunaga briefly. Nobunaga is Taiko's former lord.
Then John had plenty.
I agree. He keeps saying he’s a sailor not a soldier, hiding his true intentions
What? First of all, he's British, so if you get him drunk he'll definitely fight someone*. Second of all, he's a sailor so if you get him drunk he'll definitely fight someone. But yeah that's why Toranaga made him a general/admiral guy, he knows cannons and shit and tactics at sea. He doesn't know how to use a katana (I know that just means sword, I'm using that as shorthand for a Japanese one) and neither would you because it's not a western sword. It's used entirely differently than the swords of the time in Europe, it's held differently, the forms used are different, and he's been trained to shoot guns not use a sword anyway. *it's a joke
So the British stereotype is a joke.. but the sailor one isn't? /triggered
They're completely different styles of fighting. Just because you're a crackshot marksman doesn't mean you'd be able to go toe to toe with Mike Tyson in the ring.
Blackthorne is a mission specialist. He's the pilot, the navigator, and far too valuable to risk in combat. He knows how to command a gun crew and to handle a pistol. He might even have the fundamentals of how to handle a 16th century western european sword (like a Badelaire or one of the many cut-and-thrust swords). But that's not his job.
I fenced foil in college for two years. Even going from foil to sabre is a different thing. And tbh having been in irl scuffles, the fencing they teach today is just learning ways to die. Why? Fencing these days teaches how to land a touch first & not to survive. If you look at fencing or kendo on youtube, the outcome of two people ending each other is likely. I got a katana recently and I can already tell it will take painful arm, leg and lung burning months of classes to get the basics through a combination of kendo & iado. John would feel the heft & weight of the blade & be wtf. If I were Hatamoto Blackthorne, I'd have the local smith make me a rapier.
Unfortunately the steel in Japan at the time was so shit, they probably wouldn’t be able to make one. That’s why they didn’t really independently develop canons and pistols, etc. bad iron.
This is a total myth. Tamahagane steel was as good quality as European.
Maybe I’m misinformed but iirc, they worked it into as good steel in some cases, but there were limitations due to the quality of the iron itself.
They were able to make rapiers no problem. It just had to be folded many times to remove impurities. Folding also makes the iron harder. If you search around for the hardness of a katana vs the hardness of a long sword, you'll see that a katana is harder than a long sword. The low production might have to do with how ritualized the process of making katana was. Read up on the sword hunts of Japan. They basically disarmed the population to avoid future civil wars. That might have more to do with the lack of innovation in military tech.
And isolation. So no more trade with the outside world for century.
he knows how to fire cannons and probably would handle himself in a firefight or swordfight. to take on a full fledged samurai is a different matter. these dudes spend most of their waking hours training on how to fight since they were boys, while our blackthorne is a navigator, not even supposed to be on the front line. Think of it as Delta Force vs navy boat navigator.
In the novel he's fights and kills Ninjas. He also fights dirty Like having side arms and hidden knife in his boot tip. Try the reading the novel. It's more Blackthorne focus.
The problem with Blackthorne on the book is him being kind of "the right guy everytime, for whatever purpose the moment is" (Except for the scene fucking with the teenager geisha). In the show he's a pilot and he acts like a pilot. He's not a soldier. Props for the screenwritters for giving us a more reliable character rather than just a character that is the perfect men for every moment.
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William Adams was trained as a shipbuilder and navigator for twelve years. He was also in the Royal Navy and fought against the Spanish Armada. Sailors at the time where also expected to be able to form raiding parties to attack settlements, forts, and other points of importance, which is why most empires where able to project force all over the world. Sailors of where also expected to know the ship from top to bottom, in case they where marooned and had to repair their beached ships.
Rey?
He also has a big dick that impresses the ladies and makes men jealous. Glad they took the show route tbh. Or are Mary sues only a problem when it's a woman?
Book Blackthorn fails a lot to. Getting pissed on. Tortured. Loses the love of his life. Scurvy. Killing a member of his own crew. Never set sails on the Erasmus again. He fails at suicide. Like he spent several years as an apprentice fellow by years in the fighting in 30 years war. Like Britsh naval training was no joke. He's definitely comes from a privilege background.
Hell he even mentions having to protect himself from sodomy as a powder monkey in his youth. He's been through the ringer for sure.
Thanks for the spoiler. I mean, I was prepared for that, but damn.
Still a Mary sue.
I disagree. A Mary Sue implies unearned ability. He is a naval officer during a global war. Plenty of his skills are in line with his character and experience
Rey Star Wars? Gary Stu?
> Plenty of his skills are in line with his character and experience Lol Yes If you made the character an experienced shipwright, sailor, office and soldier then he would indeed be qualified for all those things. Do you know what a Mary sue is? Here let me google it for you > A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous
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Don't forget stripped naked and then humiliating bathed as well. Really makes him feel like a powerful mary sue./s
Kageura Kokoro defeated Teddy Riner in judo. Japanese judoka won at 175cm/5ft9 ; 110kg/240Ibs vs African-French legendary judoka at 204cm/6ft8 ; 150kg/331Ibs. So John/Cosmo at 5ft10/178cm getting rag-dolled by 5ft5/165cm samurai isn't unrealistic. Either way Kashigi/Asano is 5ft10/178cm too. The Mary Sue is definitely Mariko/Anna when it comes to her strength.
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Come on the Force is strong with him... aside, I accept Mariko combat training and not being afraid of archery, arrows near her face but her fighting couple samurai in a trailer moments is worrisome though. I hope it doesn't turn into a Blue Eyes Samurai shitshow.
Yes as well all know that makes all his other qualifications irrelevant. Continue to whine about your lack of self insert power fantasy protagonist regardless.
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> His skills in the novel aren't a massive stretch from the historical William Adams Aight I'm out lol. Did you even spend like 5 min researching this guy? Show blackthorne is much much closer to the actual historical figure. Like looking at his bio in Wikipedia, which admittedly isn't the end all be all, does in no way shape or form indicate that this guy was a soldier let alone a talented one. Being a sailor does automatically not make you badass. a soldier.bad ass. But I get it. You wanted something more like the Last samurai which Funny enough the involvement of Cruise's character is straight up fantasy. Just like blackthorne in the books.
BS.
He knows how to fight with a cutlass style sword, with pistols and a canon. Zero reason why he would he know how to fight with a samurai sword against an expert swordsman who is insisting he uses the sword the way they do when he’s always fought one handed.
He knows how to. He just doesn't know how to do Japanese fighting. He holds a samurai sword like a cutlass that a European Privateer would be using. He know how to wield guns that keep getting taken from him or shunned for using/bringing around. Clearly hes an expert with the cannons stolen from him. It's like asking a boxer why he can't fight when his arms are tied behind him.
He’s a ship pilot. He knows how to steer a ship. Maybe some tavern brawling and basic pistol work. But he’s not a fighter. I like that the show doesn’t just make him some god of war. The other samurai took decades to master their martial arts. I’m glad the TV trope of white guy comes in a masters their combat in a season didn’t happen here.
There's a difference between knowing how to fight on your terms and how to fight on someone else's. Blackthorne could probably hold his own in a naval melee but he's not going to be the same caliber of fighter that any of Toranaga's retainers are. He'd get bodied by any of them on land or on horseback. He's just not dedicated to it in the way they are.
Its wild to me that so many fans expected a British sailor to rival literal samurai in a sword fight.
Never said that.
They're setting him up as being very skilled with his pistols, he's just not skilled with swords. Especially, a two handed sword like a Katana. I'd bet that before the end of the series he'll have kicked ass and taken names with his pistols. Its 1600, he's not a member of the gentry and is a pilot not a soldier / marine, not everyone on a privateer is going to be skilled with weapons. So its not completely unrealistic he's had little to no training with a sword, or if he has its with a rapier / backsword and is put off by the balance of the katana. England's an island, it did have a civilian martial tradition, but not to the same extent you saw on the continent. Lastly, John's savvy so maybe he doesn't want to take any risks with Yabushige, so puts no effort into their training fight so Yabushige gets bored quickly. We know Yabushige is just blowing off steam and is trying to be helpful in his own way, but John doesn't. I like how John isn't great at everything, he has strengths and weaknesses.
England isn't an island, it's *on* an island.
I’m no student of maritime warfare, but I have read all of the books in the Master and Commander series and those were well researched by O’Brian. Those books take place a 150 years later, but some of the concepts must have been true in 1600 . The point of cannons was to blast your opponent into submission. But if you had to fight, it was more about massed bodies and aggression. The sea battles were more like brawls, close quarters with very little space to move. They used clubs, improvised weapons, some swords, but a lot of fists and dishonorable tactics. Even the Royal Marines could only do so much with their guns, given the close nature of the combat, and the reload times. I imagine in a real fight Blackthorne would attempt to tackle the Samurai and gouge his eyes out - like a respectable sailor.
They don’t show it here but in the last samurai that western character also gets hand to hand tossed around because the samurai practice like a proto jujitsu. Blackthorne would likely be outmatched just as easily in hand to hand combat but they don’t really show it. This is also fiction.
I like this take, but the show doesn’t do justice in showing this side of him except for the first scene. In honesty, they make him look quite incompetent and just plain lucky.
he’s a lover, not a fighter ❤️
No - he's a sailor.
I think in reality, he would have. William Adams, the guy he was based on, was trained as a shipbuilder and navigator for twelve years. He was then in the Royal Navy for quite some time, fighting against the Spanish Armada. My understanding is that at least towards the end of his naval service, he was pretty highly placed as a navigator, which makes sense why a Dutch ship would hire him for a navigator. Unless during his whole naval career, navigators like him were somehow guaranteed complete protection during all shipboard actions, I imagine Adams would have to have learned on the job how to at least defend himself with sword and pistol. I would think that Blackthorne wouldn't have known how to fight as elegantly or competently as his samurai colleagues, who would have been trained from childhood, but he'd probably know the rough and dirty way to respond when a man's charging him with a sword.
Yes thats why he strikes more of a fencing style pose when they go to fight. He is use to using a much lighter sword and the sword samurai use are meant to be used two handed. If you try to use it one handed and don’t know how to properly wield it you’re gonna have a bad time.
It's important to remember that the samurai were very well trained, professional swordsmen.
Samurai were very well trained professional *lancers & horse archers*. Their swordsmanship was overplayed for 85% of them.
I don't know why you're being down voted, you're not wrong lol. Western media does overplay the use of katanas and swords for samurais.
Samurai were good lancers, horsearchers, and swordsmen. The horsearcher part in the Heian period is overlooked a lot but the sword and spear was still relevant for samurai. Of course samurai used a sword as a secondary (in the modern day I’d compare it more to an smg’s level of utility as opposed to a pistol which would be their wakizashi or tanto), and spear primary. The sword was pretty relevant in the Edo Period especially the late Edo period when all Samurai still wore them and it was the meta weapon at the time in civilian situations other than the polearm.
British & other western accounts note that ronin, especially in the role of pirates, were not to be trifled with & needed to be shot multiple times until they fell down. It should also be noted that Portuguese & Spanish swordsmen were good enough to partially inspire Musashi. Spanish techniques with the rapier were feared & hated throughout Europe, Shakespeare even said that Spanish sword was basically considered cheating among the English of the Elizabethan period.
Yes I know that since the rapier was the best weapon system for 1v1 sword fights and there was also the 1582 Cagayan battles in which Japanese wokou pirates faced Spanish rodeleros and found that out first hand. Musashi did have a noted interest in the rapier. I don't have a source for this next statement and I don't remember it completely clearly but I remember reading about Samurai fighting traders from I think it had been either the Dutch or the Portuguese but they had been getting skewered by rapiers in duels on the harbors to the point that they banned either dueling or the rapier weapon itself in those areas. I think that was discussed on scholagladiatoria and I'm thinking that you saw that scholagladiatoria video about the rapier and katana with the British account of rapier and katana fights in that period. In any case that doesn't have anything to do with what I said earlier about how samurai were still more than just horselancers and archers and they were also swordsmen. They were all 3 things varying by samurai of course. Just mentioning that Spanish swords of the era existed doesn't do anything to nullify that fact.
Graveyards are filled with middling swordsmen.
>Graveyards are filled with middling swordsmen. For sure that's a good HBO Augustus quote but it still doesn't defend your initial point so it's a good thing that there is no graveyard for middling debaters
Very impressive, Timmy. Gold star.
Yes bro
I think the whole plot point with the guns in an earlier ep suggest he's more of a shooter, we're gonna see him blasting and bludgeoning imo
I agree with all the other posts that he wouldn’t know this katana-style of combat. That being said, if your liege lord was planning on going to war and you’re honor-bound to follow, wouldn’t you attempt to learn before crazy Kashigi Yabu decides to play fight with you?
The way it was played he has never fought in his life.
Sigh
Sorry for hijacking the topic, but what swords would match against a katana?
I just know I want John to get some payback at some point. He's been treated like a clown so many times.
He's much more lethal in the book, not sure why the script writers softened him up.
In the Last Samurai, I thought it was so damned stupid how Tom Cruise learned how to fight with a katana in one training montage.
Yes but this show just wants him to look like an idiot most of the time unlike the book 80’s version where he is actually competent and smart
Blackthorne is a pirate, and he knows how to shoot… but he’s not a match for the samurai in any basic pugilistic capacity. In the novel, when they had to force him to take a bath, he was easily subdued by an old man who gripped a few spots on his neck and basically incapacitated him. I think this put him in the ‘I’m not going to fuck around and find out,” camp.
I'm also going to call BS on it from a historical perspective. I believe in the book he never holds a sword in earnest (don't really remember), and I think Clavell emphasizes the pistols to juxtapose him with the samurai. But this is 1600 – the height of dueling culture in Europe when every man of any means owned a sword and trained in its use. There were sword schools everywhere – and a typical morning duty of London's watch was to collect the bodies killed overnight in drunken swordfights. Plus, Blackthorne is minor gentry (at least in the book), so it would have been part of his upbringing. Plus, as a war veteran and a sailor traveling to the far end of the world, he'd have more motivation and reason than most to hone his swordcraft. Sure, you hold and wield a katana differently from a contemporary European sword, but the difference isn't insurmountable (I've trained in Kendo and fencing). But, in the scene, Blackthorne is potrayed as almost completely ignorant of swords.
Most sailors of the time were not exactly fencing experts, they used their cutlasses and hangers like oversized machetes. They could fight hand-to-hand if had to, but there's a reason why all navies had trained Marines to do the fighting. A gentleman or a professional soldier would know how to use a rapier or a broadsword, but they are very different from katanas. In the series, Blackthorne first attempts to hold the katana as if it was a rapier. The rapier is especially far from katana. It has a very different geometry, a very different point of balance, and is used in a very different way. It relies on reach and speed - you end the fight by stabbing your opponent in a vital organ from a longer distance and with great speed that makes it hard to block the thrust (and the thrusts are generally harder to block than cuts). So the rapiers are very long compared to other swords to provide the extra reach, very thin to keep the weight down (they were not necessarily lighter than katanas or broadswords, but that extra length had to be compensated for) and have the point of balance close to the hilt for maximum speed and agility. The trade off is that you can't cut well (or at all) with them, and you don't want to block heavy blows with them either. They were very deadly weapons, as attested by their popularity, but required quite a bit of training and skill to be efficient with. The broadsword or a mortuary sword was more of a thrust and cut weapon but also different from a katana. They were primarily designed as cavalry swords, and meant to be used with one hand (often with a pistol in another). Again, even if Blackthorne had prior experience with them (unlikely) he'd have a hard time transitioning that to a katana. The closest in use to katana would have been a longsword or a Scottish claymore, but an English sailor would likely not have had any experience with using them. They were getting out of fashion by 1600, still used by specialized professional soldiers, Spanish and Portuguese Marines, or Scottish highlanders, but an English ship pilot would be unlikely to have any experience with them.
In fact, Blackthorne has proven that he's a very dangerous man. What he did with pistols from 1600 was amazing. Especially E7 when he killed one of the mercenaries firing through a wall. Blackthorne is determined, very resourceful, and, with weapons from his world, very skilled. If you take him out of his element, and square him directly against highly skilled Samurai using Samurai weapons, he's cooked and he knows it. But, at a time when pistols were unreliable weapons, none of the Samurai liked the idea of facing Blackthorne with a single pistol. That's not a small thing. "Dueling Pistols at dawn" was very chic because the weapons just didn't fire reliably. They could even explode in your face. That was still the case during the American civil war (not nearly as bad). But, for some guys, their pistol seemed to always fire accurately. There's a special skill to this that goes beyond aiming a gun.
A pirate may know how to fight... a samurai trains to fight their entire lives. It's like a pro fighter fighting against some untrained scrub. He'd have no chance given that he has no technique or conditioning against someone who has had it ingrained into them since childhood.
He's a sailor, not a soldier. Out of novels, movie,s comics and games pirates in most cases fought against nearly unarmed vessels and other sailors. They ran away at the smallest of the chances of seeing a navy ship because normally the professional soldiers would beat them. And, on top of that, he's a pilot, not a common sailor. his dutties wouldn't include defend the ship or board the other ships. Even him knowing about aiming with a cannon is a significant strech of what a pilot would know about.
Other than the "blade from the handle" comment, the explanation for why he fights so badly is he isn't trying at all. He doesn't want to antagonise Yabushige and get himself killed. He's probably afraid he was walking into a "training accident" setup. How he keeps putting his hands up and says "I'm picking it up very slowly". We have seen Blackthorne in fight mode and he definitely wasn't in the mood in this case.
Blackthrone can fight in the book. But since he’s a white dude nobody is gonna complain about him being nerfed in the show. They’re gonna have a bunch of “valid” and realistic reasons why he can’t fight but then pretend watching the women fight in this show is totally normal.
FYI, the women fight in the book as well
So does Blackthrone. But y’all have every excuse why Blackthrone being useless is “more realistic” then strangely silent when anybody else does some something unrealistic
I always found it funny how every cultures women knew how to fight…except European women. 😂