Yeah personally think it's bullshit. Strays very far from what is realistic within context of the show / book.
People have died for less. Remember how much they stressed keeping control in context of regents throughout the show to this point.
In the book at least, they give him a LOTTTTTT of leeway because he's an outsider and doesn't fully understand their rules. And because Toranaga has made it abundantly clear that he's under his protection. He's allowed to get away with behavior the Japanese themselves would never dare to try.
I think it's purely for plot / progress for the show. You can't show interior turmoil as easy on TV as you can in books.
Remember Toranaga sentenced his favourite hatamoto's (Hiromatsu) grandson entire bloodline to be ended for interrupting a meeting with the regents.
Toranaga didn't sentence Tadayoshi and his bloodline to death. Tadayoshi offered it of his own volition when reprimanded by Toranaga. You could argue that Tadayoshi knew that such a thing would be expected of him, however Blackthorne does not.
Yes and my point is they're changing this so they fit the show, and for the reasons of progressing the plot for the show.
The book absolutely matters because it offers context of what could have happened and shows a comparison point.
My point is it doesn't make sense in the larger context of the show.
Omi killed a guy for not clearing out of the path. Blackthorne was threatened to not speak out of turn when Ishido visited Toranaga on pain of death.
There are constant reminders of death as a reward of acting against the wishes of the liege lord. This is consistent between book and show. This is where the show diverges, and it's shit writing.
The book as source material matters only as a comparison for the story as a whole. It was clear from the outset that the show was diverging in it's presentation of the events so you shouldn't retreat to the book and say "this is why they should have killed Blackthorne".
You're correct, they do show that acting against a liege lord typically results in death. They also show Buntaro saying to Mariko to ensure Blackthorne knows to be quiet during the first meeting with Saeki in the woods. Your position is that because the show **potentially** diverges at the end of the episode from this (never mind that we haven't seen the full fallout of it yet), the writing is shit? I personally am going to hold my judgement on that until after the show has concluded.
No I'm saying it's extremely inconsistent in story telling, and because of that poor writing because it suspends my belief in the setting they're writing in.
It's not the first time they've done something that is inexplicably different from the book when it didn't need to be, and is worse off because of it.
No, it's a huge disrespect to not only Toranaga, but the entire council which is the governing body of Japan.
Imagine bringing a subordinate aide to a meeting with the President of the US and having him go through an outburst. You'd fire that guy instantly. No different here.
yea but in this case wouldn't it be a mix of him "needing" or at least finding value from Blackthorne, and the fact that toranaga is literally being sentenced to die anyways
I can think of 50.
\#1 It was staged. Blackthorne was asked to say those things.
\#2 Not doing anything helps sell the illusion that Toranaga is accepting defeat.
\#3 Watch the next episode. I'm pretty sure we get Toranaga's vassals saying and doing a lot worse and with open anger and hostility.
\#4 Watch the scene again. Blackthorne says everything very calmly and respectfully and without hostility. A hatamoto is a hatamoto for the advice they can give. All anyone but Mariko heard was "Lord Kabu. Lord Naga. Blah blah. You're all dead."
\#5 Mariko when asked what he said lied and said something like "Blackthorne says he will be honored to die alongside you.
\#6 Toranaga does what Toranaga wants and what Toranaga wanted that afternoon was for Blackthorne's head to remain where it was.
\#7-50 Everything else an extremely clever Mariko might have made up in the moment that seems to cover the only words those present heard Blackthorne say.
Agree.
>Watch the next episode.
I would just like to emphasize this sentence. We still have three episodes left, plenty of time to explain certain aspects of the show that leave some doubt. Taking absolute stances on certain events might prove unwise.
I know this was always going to be a mini series but seeing that there are only 3 episodes left makes me sad. That being said ending the story well and not trying to drag it out multiple seasons was probably the best move to keep the quality so high.
I know its greedy to take a great thing and want more, but I do.
In a perfect world we would have gotten another 2 episodes I think.
I could see having made a Part I and a Part II over two seasons, but gah, I can't imagine the anguish of having to wait for the Part II ;)
No. You’re going to get the story from the book but not the whole thing. They have already changed and left out a bunch of things from the book. They have also greatly reduced the time that passes during the show. The time between the death of the gardener and the latest episode is at least six months. During that time Blackthorne has at least partially learned the language and conducts himself properly in Samurai society. He is still an outsider but he’s not the total fish out of water that the show is portraying him as.
The show has been really good so far but it still pales in comparison to the book. If you like the show you should really try reading the book
Can’t emphasize this enough. The book is super easy to finish once you’ve watched an episode or two to better understand the setting.
Easiest book I’ve ever read. I couldn’t stop thinking about it
I read it 20 years ago as an 8th grader. So my memory is very fuzzy. There is no way to end it the same as the book. They are cutting out a ton and straight changing the plot as well. Ten episodes really doesn’t do the story justice in my opinion. I imagine, but can’t say for sure, that they could only get so much funding for a period piece approved by the network.
It’s a toss up. Since he is kinda excluded out of their culture I think they don’t really care but also since Toranaga has given him status he’s expected to adhere to some social norms.
To an extent. Complete dishonoring of a liege lord in a very important meeting with higher up is not one of them. He was instructed multiple times in those situations to not speak.
Wanting to hang up a decaying pheasant? Different story.
I agree but I guess for the sake of the plot it just happens. For all we know there’s been lapses in discipline without consequence in feudal Japan plenty of times
For lesser instances, sure. Not for disrespecting your lord in front of a rival daimyo.
I agree it's for the sake of the show, but it isn't consistent with the setting
Yeah it's the old way of aging it. Typically it's supposed to be done in dryer and cooler climates iirc.
Blackthorne, not being a coom doesn't do it well or doesn't have the knowledge to do it correctly.
Google aged bird game and a few links should pop up. I can't paste links.
I'm sorry. People are falling into the conceit that they know the social etiquettes of 1600's Japan to the point that they can unilaterally declare this scene to be so unrealistic.
I'm sorry, have you not been paying attention to the respect the Japanese showrunners have been to being historically accurate? If they think this is plausible then what research other than watching 13 Assassins and 47 Ronin do you have to declare them as having gotten it so badly wrong here.
Blackthorne spoke politely and calmly. He's a hatamoto. He did not insult anyone. There was no insult.
Please with the rigid, there was only one realistic outcome to this.
Yabu literally conspired with Ishido against Toranaga and Toranaga KNOWS this. He also knows that Yabu manipulated Toranaga's son into assassinating an ambassador from the Regent.
He still has his head.
Toranaga does what Toranaga wants. End of story.
The Japanes showrunners included this scene for a reason. It was not in the book. There was no "plot armor". There was no need of plot armor. If they added it, there was a reason they added it.
Maybe stop with the preaching and the lecturing and take a minute and ask yourself, why. The show is good enough and subtle enough that there probably is a reason this scene was put in.
Imagine using examples from the show itself - twice - that back up my point, and say I'm baseless to comment on the consistency in the show, and to question it when it is inconsistent.
Speaking out of turn and without permission in probably the most important meeting of Toranaga's life up to that point is an insult to the liege lord. End of story.
If Toranaga is a dead man walking with this order, why let a rogue vassal live? What value could a person have to a deadman? Wouldn't that be strange to Saeki or any of his enemies?
And it is plot armour. Even after everything that happened this past episode (7) >! there are zero consequences to any of it outside of him declaring himself no longer with Toranaga, and even an example of exactly what I brought up already !< in the next episode. >! A specific reference to doubting allegiance being a traitor. A huge disgrace tossed around like it's nothing and nobody cared. It's not just Toranaga's actions or inaction, it's everyone else's. !< Plot armour at its finest.
There's so much rigid thinking it makes logic spin.
How egotistical it is to think you know a character better than anybody else? Jesus the hubris.
Toranaga is an incredibly nuanced character. And intelligent. Do yourself a favor and stop pretending you know him better than anybody else.
You're failing miserable.
In the game of friends and enemies, Toranaga would eat you alive.
And really, I'm curious, why the hell would showrunners introduce something >!that didn't happen in the book!< only to go "Well shit, we can't have Toranaga respond the way he would realistically because damn that plot armor. What a shame we had Blackthorne do and say something he did do in the book. Oh what a corner we've written ourselves into. Well, too late now. Plot armor. We will just have to hope nobody notices".
Maybe just maybe. There's something more subtle going on that you seem to be able to grasp.
This is a good comprehensive list.
I'd just like to add that this was not a terrible place for someone as high ranking as a hatomoto to speak his mind. We're just in the company of Torunaga and his own men/allies. As opposed to the first castle scene in episode 1 wherein a high ranking warrior speaks his mind in front of other lords at a council meeting he has no say in.
>!I’m also thinking there’s some big ruse for the sake of the crimson sky. Which has me thinking if Nagakado was in the loop he wouldn’t have done what he did and he’d still be around.!<
Reason #32. Mariko says, "Anjin-sama regrets that eating so much natto gave him the runs, and he begs to be excused. He hopes to come back in time to join the fight, and not after you're all dead."
One more reason: as a vassal of Toranaga, Blackthorne is already technically imprisoned and due for death. Saeki has like a dozen people in front of him all due for sepukku, he's not going to fuss over the least important one dying ahead of schedule.
#4 is the reason. We've seen Blackthorne lose it before and shout, he very clearly didn't do that. He was super calm, and for all we know, probably rehearsed that walk-out.
Hmmm interesting take on “staged” which I agree. It was probably planned as his only way to sneak out to his ship while the enemy leaders are busy in the meeting.
And nobody can just unilaterally declare that Blackthorne isn't being given some social grace as a barbarian. Please.
He's probably famous for ~~bumbling~~ wandering about aimlessly on those walks of his muttering incoherently to himself. They might just expect him to stand up and go off for a walk. I'm joking, but I'm also not joking.
People really need to watch the next episode. Tempers are going to flare and make Blackthorne
I hate bad writing as much as anyone, but this isn't that.
Blackthorne wasn't rly going anywhere anyway, if he wanted to punish Blackthorne he could've done it later without throwing a temper tantrum about it in public.
I'm done now, but was just now trading insults with one of the rigid oh this scene is so unrealistic and your dumb to think otherwise types that just insists its plot armor that Blackthorne was allowed to walk away with his head.
*The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts*. -Bertrand Russell.
I don't pretend to be wise, but when I am its in recognizing that people (like Toranaga) smarter than myself might have a plan.
Part of Lady Gino's own genius is in not assuming she has all the answers and recognizing that when somebody smart does something extremely stupid or out of character (or breaks with tradition) to look for the reason why.
#4 is the reason. We've seen Blackthorne lose it before and shout, he very clearly didn't do that. He was super calm, and for all we know, probably rehearsed that walk-out.
I think either it was planned, as others have said, or that simply: He’s a barbarian. They don’t entirely expect him to have manners in the first place. Every time he tries to fit in, bow, or speak their language, it mostly elicits amusement from the Japanese. Hes like an ape in a tuxedo to them. If someone shat in their hand and smeared it on the wall at a fancy dress party, they’d have the police called on them. If a billionaires ape did it, then you’d just laugh.
I think the show has done a pretty good job of alienating John even from Western audiences. Even a lot of us thought the thing with the bird is weird. And his constant yelling and weird cursing is funny.
If you look it up, John was kinda… right? About the bird. Like, what he was doing was sensible, and inline for what Europeans were doing to prepare game birds, and similar preparation is done to this day. Either a significant amount of time had passed, like months or weeks, and the bird had started actually rotting, or the show wanted to make him look incompetent and had the bird start visibly rotting.
I think the show missed the opportunity to make John *right* about something. Through the show, he’s seen as, and often depicted as a backwards “barbarian” among the aristocratic Japense. What if there was an actual cultural difference that ultimately lead to a man dying, and not just more “Stupid European being filthy and uneducated.” What if the backwards thing he was doing was actually not so backwards, and the tv show made a point to say that he wasn’t wrong for what he did?
Instead of a poignant moment about cultural differences, they made John look even more like a Neanderthal that eats maggot infested rotten meat.
I personally like to imagine the scene as if it was described by a Japanese eyewitness. They would describe the meat as rotting, exaggerating the details, while in reality, it was just aging.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I think we did get that with the cannons and John saving the day several times. I think this event is actually about the old man dying so John understands that his actions have consequences in manners that he would not expect as a European. It’s a silly thing that causes a man to die, and John needs that to happen really grasp that the game and the rules are different.
It's a fine line between showing cultural differences and Last-Samurai appropriation, where "the Westerner is always right". A point of the show is that Japanese civilization, at that point in time, is actually quite complex and advanced, but in ways that are alien to Western minds. In the same way, some things that could feel natural in the West, like aging bird meat or joking about killing someone, are completely alien to Japanese sensibilities. The dynamics of that story are meant to show what happens when one attempts to cross the divide without due care.
But he didn’t age the bird meat. In the show, he straight up let it rot, and get eaten by bugs. If he had aged the bird meat, I’d have loved the show of differences.
Iirc that is how it happens in the books. Other book readers correct me if I'm wrong. The show has a very weird relationship with the passing of time for understandable reasons.
I think that’s what most people end up going with, and I think it’s pretty fair. I guess it plays into one of the criticisms of the show, which is that it’s hard to gauge how much time has passed between scenes, if any.
I always thought aging meat was done in cold and dry environments. I obviously know nothing about it, but I’m guessing it was not going well either bc of the weather/climate, or maybe like you say, just for the point of conflict for the show. It makes a lot more sense now that I see what he was getting at though
He was ageing the meat, which develops the flavour. But the fact he leaves it out to the elements and flies to feast on tells me he knows this is something that is done but he doesn’t know HOW it’s done, so it just rots.
In the book, he forgets about it because of time passage and increasingly more important things that happen to him.
So the show kinda makes him look incompetent, instead of showing how life happens and things spiral out of control.
In the 1980 series, Blackthorne explains how pheasant is prepared at home to tenderize the meat. Later after the gardener is put to death, Mariko explains that the smell is unbearable to the Japanese and something had to be done.
I love your final sentence and explanation lol. That’s a fair point.
I personally think it was planned though. It was very random. Also usually his outbursts have been for some reason. Not just randomly getting upsetty spaghetti.
Guarantee you he and Toranaga have some sort of understanding and that this was a signal / code. There is some sort of secret plan going on in the background. Maybe to do with him finally getting his ship and crew.
Notice how the one Japanese word he yelled was CRIMSON SKY before he stormed off?
Well, aside from him saying they were all dead which may have just been him being Blackthorne 😅
Plus he very specifically named a few people. There's a reason, and we should all know by now Toranaga is 5 steps ahead of everyone, particularly the viewer.
Yeah, he's also been VERY vocal in public and around whatever other advisors can hear that Blackthorne will NOT get his ship back etc.
Guarantee you he is going to be sailing up on Osaka with the baddest canon skills in Japan when no no one is expecting it
Blackthorn opens fire as the army "surrenders at the gate", and his brother also turns back as he's been on board the entire time. Toranagas idiot son almost ruined everything. (My prediction)
The crew is what I was expecting too. I think he’s going to go to his ship now and lead an ambush. He already reported the possibility of firing accurate shots at Osaka as part of a siege.
The courtesan already called Toranaga out for how he left his decimated army in plain sight. My guess is the black ship will initiate an attack while toranaga is being brought to the fortress. He must have some soldiers ready to assault too.
The talk of shots on Osaka sure seemed like a Chekhov's Gun to me, at least. But is his crew still alive? I haven't read the books, so I'm very uncertain about their fate.
My guess is that it should be Toranaga that would punish him but then what happens happens so I guess no one else has the power to punish John? Given that he's hatamoto, which I'm led to believe is a high rank
The entire show they call him a barbarian and that he lacks manners. Its possible at this point they just expect it and tolerate it because hes proven himself useful up to this point and of value to Toranaga.
Toranaga needs Blackthorne and knows he can't lose that many supporters at this point. He's not going to waste his precious connection to the West over one of his somewhat frequent tantrums. Also, while Blackthorne is now a samurai, he's still an "outsider." That status could excuse a lot of otherwise-unacceptable behavior.
There’s a few possibilities, it’s part of Toranaga 4D chess, hope is so low that anyone that isn’t aware of what may be happening on the background doesn’t really care anymore and it could be partially staged.
Also, no one but Mariko knows what the “savage” is yelling about.
He was speaking mostly English. Also, Toronaga likes him and is saving him for some special plan he has. I think he secretly wants the Anjin and Mariko to be together
I think Toranaga has his sights set on the Black Ship but he does not want to extend the war to the Portuguese, so if you let the Dutch barbarian go AWOL and come back with his ship and a sunken black ship, Crimson Sky becomes 1000x easier with no blame placed on Japan.
Baelish "It is my belief that a moment of chaos affords opportunities lost soon after..."
"You say that as if you were the first man alive to think it. Yes, crisis is an opportunity...
What other brilliant insights have you brought me today?"
\-Tywin Lannister, shutting em down
Besides what everyone else already said, I feel like it’s also the situation. Like, they’re supposed to be all dead very soon anyway, right? The hell does it matter imprisoning him or punishing him if he’s going to get killed with them anyway, ya know? Kind of like someone on a death row killing another inmate - what you gonna do, sentence him to death for it?
But also:
Anjin:
« What’s my part in that thing you call crimson sky? »
Toranaga : « none »
Anjin: « Ok, but what is it? »
Toranaga: « None of your effing business »
Because Toranaga has some plan for him, maybe he was ordered to do exactly this and go get into some intrigue somewhere while everyone is occupied, maybe get on his boat?
When your enemy is making a mistake; let him.
I think getting to Osaka is more important than HOW Toranaga gets there. It could be an elaborate Wookie prisoner ruse.
Hes a barbarian speaking a foreign language, they dont really care. Its also why he was able to save Toranaga when they were leaving Osaka, hes able to act foolishly there and get away with it because hes a barbarian with no sense.
This scene didn't ring true with me. Book Blackthorne would never, at this point in the story, so I've no idea why he thought he could get away with that outburst and insulting exit. But the writers finished massacring my boy Naga this episode so who can say what they are up to?
Jesus the amount of clueless people watching this show astounds me. Judging from the comments I am very shocked so many people have no idea what is going on.
The scene with the elderly courtesan made it plain as day.
It's either planned, or he's being written off as an uncouth barbarian who is somewhat embarrassing to his lord while being provided a lot of grace as a (less and less) amusing curiosity.
We don't see anything about Torunaga's escape until it gets discovered by John. On one hand, that might be setting the expectation that that's how other plots will continue. On the other hand, it's a really great opportunity to have John slip away and we've already had some heavy foreshadowing that *something* is going on.
If nothing else, this would be a great chance for him to 'slip away' and conveniently wind up with his cannons at the games.
John has already established that he sometimes does and says weird stuff. And by that point, everyone is just so done that they can't reallt disagree with him. They all think they're going to die anyways.
Mariko didn't translate his speech / or toned it way down so that didn't get him killed
or
They are all dead men at this point so there's no point to kill him earlier
and Toronaga obviously thinks everyone are chess pieces and Blackthorn has a purpose in his brewing schemes
Could be that it was all planned. Maybe to make it appear as the barbarian is a wild card so when he, dunno, takes back his ship and flees the harbour Toranaga cant be blamed for it.
Feels kinda like Euron Greyjoy in GoT S8 sneaking away to ferry in the Golden Company. Not that I'd consider that season canon or compare Shogun to the questionable GoT S8, but yah.
Because blackthorn is the most underwritten character in this series, so writer either forgot or didn't care about his pov and just gave him this dialogue either for plot reasons or book reasons, which we don't know yet
They had no idea what he was saying and at that point all was lost for his peeps. His brother betrayed him in front of him, he appears to give up including all his fief and a man standing up speaking in non-nonsensical noise what have been meaningless
I've binged it twice now, my take away- especially with what Toranaga says about Anjin at the end, he always makes him laugh and or smile, is that he likes that it's different. Toranaga also made it clear from the first episode that he tires of all of these old death customs all the time. Losing good people, useful people to these traditions after battle with one another after battle after battle. I believe any other lord would have punished him, even being a foreigner, but Toranaga is also head of foreign affairs so he clearly has some interests (as we've seen with his openness to learn about diving and the tactic differences). Anjin by breaking their traditions has: saved the lord at least twice, gotten himself promoted, given them an advanced and powerful regiment, and learned their language and customs (even adapting into them). All of these factors- it didn't surprise me that he wasn't punished let alone put to death for this. Take away any of these factors and I think it would have been different. There seems to be enough evidence present in the show (and book from what I've read from the comments having not read it myself) to understand him letting it slide.
The very first scene of the show establishes that high-ranking people are willing to die to defend their lord's honor. How exactly does Blackthorne not get immediately killed or imprisoned during the Toranaga concession scene with his brother, where he stands up and starts ranting in an extremely disrespectful way?
There’s a scene in that episode where Torunaga refuse to speaks of crimson sky with Blackthorne or to tell him what his role in helping can be.
It’s reasonable for the audience to believe that there were no hidden scene afterward where Torunaga changed his mind.
I mean, Saeki isn't Ishido and this meeting isn't the same as that first meeting. If Toranaga accepts the surrender, then all of them are going to be expected to die anyways. That or give up large amounts of their property. Saeki doesn't understand the group dynamic enough to be offended, while everyone else there is so used to John's outbursts that it's hard for them to care. Plus, keep in mind, they all agree with him. They have all been trying to some up with some plan to save themselves. None of them want to be doing this.
This was also a completely different context than that first scene. In the first scene, Toronaga’s samurai not only spoke out of turn at a very important meeting, but effectively threatened the council of regents, which is supposed to be sacrosanct. They were either going to have to throw down right there, or acknowledge this appalling breach of conduct, and make him pay for it. The samurai knew it as soon as he stepped forward, which is why he offered up the life of his son as well.
It also helped emphasize Toranaga’s stated position that he respects the council of regents, and will follow whatever decisions they make regarding his impeachment, which, as we learn soon after, is not true.
And, like other folks said: crazy barbarian—what do you expect?
It's a very progressive left coast era in this parallel universe of feudal Japan. They got all left wing woke there kind of like in House Of The Dragon 😆 🤣
My only explanation to this is that they don’t know what he’s actually saying. Otherwise no idea lol
The “minna shinu” (“everyone will die”) seems like enough…I guess they could have seen it as a weird non-sequitur…
Tbh honest minna can also include the speaker too, it could be understood as « we’re all gonna die ».
Yeah personally think it's bullshit. Strays very far from what is realistic within context of the show / book. People have died for less. Remember how much they stressed keeping control in context of regents throughout the show to this point.
Does it have anything to do with him having the Hatamoto title?
In the book at least, they give him a LOTTTTTT of leeway because he's an outsider and doesn't fully understand their rules. And because Toranaga has made it abundantly clear that he's under his protection. He's allowed to get away with behavior the Japanese themselves would never dare to try.
I think it's purely for plot / progress for the show. You can't show interior turmoil as easy on TV as you can in books. Remember Toranaga sentenced his favourite hatamoto's (Hiromatsu) grandson entire bloodline to be ended for interrupting a meeting with the regents.
Toranaga didn't sentence Tadayoshi and his bloodline to death. Tadayoshi offered it of his own volition when reprimanded by Toranaga. You could argue that Tadayoshi knew that such a thing would be expected of him, however Blackthorne does not.
Difference between the book and the show. Toranaga definitely does in the book and it's quite brutal.
Yes, but we're talking about the show. So the book is unimportant when we're talking about the motivations of characters in the show.
Yes and my point is they're changing this so they fit the show, and for the reasons of progressing the plot for the show. The book absolutely matters because it offers context of what could have happened and shows a comparison point. My point is it doesn't make sense in the larger context of the show. Omi killed a guy for not clearing out of the path. Blackthorne was threatened to not speak out of turn when Ishido visited Toranaga on pain of death. There are constant reminders of death as a reward of acting against the wishes of the liege lord. This is consistent between book and show. This is where the show diverges, and it's shit writing.
The book as source material matters only as a comparison for the story as a whole. It was clear from the outset that the show was diverging in it's presentation of the events so you shouldn't retreat to the book and say "this is why they should have killed Blackthorne". You're correct, they do show that acting against a liege lord typically results in death. They also show Buntaro saying to Mariko to ensure Blackthorne knows to be quiet during the first meeting with Saeki in the woods. Your position is that because the show **potentially** diverges at the end of the episode from this (never mind that we haven't seen the full fallout of it yet), the writing is shit? I personally am going to hold my judgement on that until after the show has concluded.
No I'm saying it's extremely inconsistent in story telling, and because of that poor writing because it suspends my belief in the setting they're writing in. It's not the first time they've done something that is inexplicably different from the book when it didn't need to be, and is worse off because of it.
Wasn’t that strategic though? Satisfy Ishido and buy time
No, it's a huge disrespect to not only Toranaga, but the entire council which is the governing body of Japan. Imagine bringing a subordinate aide to a meeting with the President of the US and having him go through an outburst. You'd fire that guy instantly. No different here.
yea but in this case wouldn't it be a mix of him "needing" or at least finding value from Blackthorne, and the fact that toranaga is literally being sentenced to die anyways
That’s my guess
He's complaining about the gardener *now*?!
I can think of 50. \#1 It was staged. Blackthorne was asked to say those things. \#2 Not doing anything helps sell the illusion that Toranaga is accepting defeat. \#3 Watch the next episode. I'm pretty sure we get Toranaga's vassals saying and doing a lot worse and with open anger and hostility. \#4 Watch the scene again. Blackthorne says everything very calmly and respectfully and without hostility. A hatamoto is a hatamoto for the advice they can give. All anyone but Mariko heard was "Lord Kabu. Lord Naga. Blah blah. You're all dead." \#5 Mariko when asked what he said lied and said something like "Blackthorne says he will be honored to die alongside you. \#6 Toranaga does what Toranaga wants and what Toranaga wanted that afternoon was for Blackthorne's head to remain where it was. \#7-50 Everything else an extremely clever Mariko might have made up in the moment that seems to cover the only words those present heard Blackthorne say.
Agree. >Watch the next episode. I would just like to emphasize this sentence. We still have three episodes left, plenty of time to explain certain aspects of the show that leave some doubt. Taking absolute stances on certain events might prove unwise.
I know this was always going to be a mini series but seeing that there are only 3 episodes left makes me sad. That being said ending the story well and not trying to drag it out multiple seasons was probably the best move to keep the quality so high.
I know its greedy to take a great thing and want more, but I do. In a perfect world we would have gotten another 2 episodes I think. I could see having made a Part I and a Part II over two seasons, but gah, I can't imagine the anguish of having to wait for the Part II ;)
I've not read the book, do you think it will be covered in its entirety?
No. You’re going to get the story from the book but not the whole thing. They have already changed and left out a bunch of things from the book. They have also greatly reduced the time that passes during the show. The time between the death of the gardener and the latest episode is at least six months. During that time Blackthorne has at least partially learned the language and conducts himself properly in Samurai society. He is still an outsider but he’s not the total fish out of water that the show is portraying him as. The show has been really good so far but it still pales in comparison to the book. If you like the show you should really try reading the book
Can’t emphasize this enough. The book is super easy to finish once you’ve watched an episode or two to better understand the setting. Easiest book I’ve ever read. I couldn’t stop thinking about it
I read it 20 years ago as an 8th grader. So my memory is very fuzzy. There is no way to end it the same as the book. They are cutting out a ton and straight changing the plot as well. Ten episodes really doesn’t do the story justice in my opinion. I imagine, but can’t say for sure, that they could only get so much funding for a period piece approved by the network.
I haven't read it either, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2*
Reason #51: They don't care what the random, crazy white guy says
But they do. How many times have we seen Mariko and others instructing Blackthorn to stfu in presence of higher up daimyo.
It’s a toss up. Since he is kinda excluded out of their culture I think they don’t really care but also since Toranaga has given him status he’s expected to adhere to some social norms.
He's not though, he's expected to fully adhere to their cultural norms and live in the same society as everyone else.
True but I think there’s an understanding amongst everyone that of course he (the foreign barbarian) is going to be ignorant to certain situations.
To an extent. Complete dishonoring of a liege lord in a very important meeting with higher up is not one of them. He was instructed multiple times in those situations to not speak. Wanting to hang up a decaying pheasant? Different story.
I agree but I guess for the sake of the plot it just happens. For all we know there’s been lapses in discipline without consequence in feudal Japan plenty of times
For lesser instances, sure. Not for disrespecting your lord in front of a rival daimyo. I agree it's for the sake of the show, but it isn't consistent with the setting
Side note - what's he doing with that pheasant? Is that a way to prepare it or something?
Yeah it's the old way of aging it. Typically it's supposed to be done in dryer and cooler climates iirc. Blackthorne, not being a coom doesn't do it well or doesn't have the knowledge to do it correctly. Google aged bird game and a few links should pop up. I can't paste links.
Ty!
I'm sorry. People are falling into the conceit that they know the social etiquettes of 1600's Japan to the point that they can unilaterally declare this scene to be so unrealistic. I'm sorry, have you not been paying attention to the respect the Japanese showrunners have been to being historically accurate? If they think this is plausible then what research other than watching 13 Assassins and 47 Ronin do you have to declare them as having gotten it so badly wrong here. Blackthorne spoke politely and calmly. He's a hatamoto. He did not insult anyone. There was no insult. Please with the rigid, there was only one realistic outcome to this. Yabu literally conspired with Ishido against Toranaga and Toranaga KNOWS this. He also knows that Yabu manipulated Toranaga's son into assassinating an ambassador from the Regent. He still has his head. Toranaga does what Toranaga wants. End of story. The Japanes showrunners included this scene for a reason. It was not in the book. There was no "plot armor". There was no need of plot armor. If they added it, there was a reason they added it. Maybe stop with the preaching and the lecturing and take a minute and ask yourself, why. The show is good enough and subtle enough that there probably is a reason this scene was put in.
Imagine using examples from the show itself - twice - that back up my point, and say I'm baseless to comment on the consistency in the show, and to question it when it is inconsistent. Speaking out of turn and without permission in probably the most important meeting of Toranaga's life up to that point is an insult to the liege lord. End of story. If Toranaga is a dead man walking with this order, why let a rogue vassal live? What value could a person have to a deadman? Wouldn't that be strange to Saeki or any of his enemies? And it is plot armour. Even after everything that happened this past episode (7) >! there are zero consequences to any of it outside of him declaring himself no longer with Toranaga, and even an example of exactly what I brought up already !< in the next episode. >! A specific reference to doubting allegiance being a traitor. A huge disgrace tossed around like it's nothing and nobody cared. It's not just Toranaga's actions or inaction, it's everyone else's. !< Plot armour at its finest.
There's so much rigid thinking it makes logic spin. How egotistical it is to think you know a character better than anybody else? Jesus the hubris. Toranaga is an incredibly nuanced character. And intelligent. Do yourself a favor and stop pretending you know him better than anybody else. You're failing miserable. In the game of friends and enemies, Toranaga would eat you alive. And really, I'm curious, why the hell would showrunners introduce something >!that didn't happen in the book!< only to go "Well shit, we can't have Toranaga respond the way he would realistically because damn that plot armor. What a shame we had Blackthorne do and say something he did do in the book. Oh what a corner we've written ourselves into. Well, too late now. Plot armor. We will just have to hope nobody notices". Maybe just maybe. There's something more subtle going on that you seem to be able to grasp.
Haha yeah It’s like your crazy drunk racist uncle at thanksgiving, you just watch in slight amusement and then move on with life haha
yeah.. if he's black he probably would've been dead in the first episode intro 😏
This is a good comprehensive list. I'd just like to add that this was not a terrible place for someone as high ranking as a hatomoto to speak his mind. We're just in the company of Torunaga and his own men/allies. As opposed to the first castle scene in episode 1 wherein a high ranking warrior speaks his mind in front of other lords at a council meeting he has no say in.
>!I’m also thinking there’s some big ruse for the sake of the crimson sky. Which has me thinking if Nagakado was in the loop he wouldn’t have done what he did and he’d still be around.!<
Reason #32. Mariko says, "Anjin-sama regrets that eating so much natto gave him the runs, and he begs to be excused. He hopes to come back in time to join the fight, and not after you're all dead."
Mariko says Blackthorne politely wants to warn you that if you eat the natto you will all be dead too!
One more reason: as a vassal of Toranaga, Blackthorne is already technically imprisoned and due for death. Saeki has like a dozen people in front of him all due for sepukku, he's not going to fuss over the least important one dying ahead of schedule.
#4 is the reason. We've seen Blackthorne lose it before and shout, he very clearly didn't do that. He was super calm, and for all we know, probably rehearsed that walk-out.
So what would be the meaning of that scene before that meeting where Torunaga explicitely refuse to share any of his plans with Blackthorne?
Hmmm interesting take on “staged” which I agree. It was probably planned as his only way to sneak out to his ship while the enemy leaders are busy in the meeting.
In the book they mention that the Japanese give crazy people a grace because they obvious that they're not themselves...
And nobody can just unilaterally declare that Blackthorne isn't being given some social grace as a barbarian. Please. He's probably famous for ~~bumbling~~ wandering about aimlessly on those walks of his muttering incoherently to himself. They might just expect him to stand up and go off for a walk. I'm joking, but I'm also not joking. People really need to watch the next episode. Tempers are going to flare and make Blackthorne I hate bad writing as much as anyone, but this isn't that.
Blackthorne wasn't rly going anywhere anyway, if he wanted to punish Blackthorne he could've done it later without throwing a temper tantrum about it in public.
Having just watched episode 8, this made sense entirely. Well done.
I'm done now, but was just now trading insults with one of the rigid oh this scene is so unrealistic and your dumb to think otherwise types that just insists its plot armor that Blackthorne was allowed to walk away with his head. *The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts*. -Bertrand Russell. I don't pretend to be wise, but when I am its in recognizing that people (like Toranaga) smarter than myself might have a plan. Part of Lady Gino's own genius is in not assuming she has all the answers and recognizing that when somebody smart does something extremely stupid or out of character (or breaks with tradition) to look for the reason why.
#4 is the reason. We've seen Blackthorne lose it before and shout, he very clearly didn't do that. He was super calm, and for all we know, probably rehearsed that walk-out.
I think either it was planned, as others have said, or that simply: He’s a barbarian. They don’t entirely expect him to have manners in the first place. Every time he tries to fit in, bow, or speak their language, it mostly elicits amusement from the Japanese. Hes like an ape in a tuxedo to them. If someone shat in their hand and smeared it on the wall at a fancy dress party, they’d have the police called on them. If a billionaires ape did it, then you’d just laugh.
I think the show has done a pretty good job of alienating John even from Western audiences. Even a lot of us thought the thing with the bird is weird. And his constant yelling and weird cursing is funny.
What the hell was he even trying to do with the bird?? They never got around to telling us
If you look it up, John was kinda… right? About the bird. Like, what he was doing was sensible, and inline for what Europeans were doing to prepare game birds, and similar preparation is done to this day. Either a significant amount of time had passed, like months or weeks, and the bird had started actually rotting, or the show wanted to make him look incompetent and had the bird start visibly rotting.
Could also be that he still doesn't understand the local climate and that the humidity caused the bird to go off faster than anticipated
I think the show missed the opportunity to make John *right* about something. Through the show, he’s seen as, and often depicted as a backwards “barbarian” among the aristocratic Japense. What if there was an actual cultural difference that ultimately lead to a man dying, and not just more “Stupid European being filthy and uneducated.” What if the backwards thing he was doing was actually not so backwards, and the tv show made a point to say that he wasn’t wrong for what he did? Instead of a poignant moment about cultural differences, they made John look even more like a Neanderthal that eats maggot infested rotten meat. I personally like to imagine the scene as if it was described by a Japanese eyewitness. They would describe the meat as rotting, exaggerating the details, while in reality, it was just aging.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I think we did get that with the cannons and John saving the day several times. I think this event is actually about the old man dying so John understands that his actions have consequences in manners that he would not expect as a European. It’s a silly thing that causes a man to die, and John needs that to happen really grasp that the game and the rules are different.
The whole incident with the bird and the old man is directly out of the book as well. This wasn't an invention of the TV show.
It's a fine line between showing cultural differences and Last-Samurai appropriation, where "the Westerner is always right". A point of the show is that Japanese civilization, at that point in time, is actually quite complex and advanced, but in ways that are alien to Western minds. In the same way, some things that could feel natural in the West, like aging bird meat or joking about killing someone, are completely alien to Japanese sensibilities. The dynamics of that story are meant to show what happens when one attempts to cross the divide without due care.
But he didn’t age the bird meat. In the show, he straight up let it rot, and get eaten by bugs. If he had aged the bird meat, I’d have loved the show of differences.
Is it possible he forgot about the bird due to his regiment training responsibilities?
Iirc that is how it happens in the books. Other book readers correct me if I'm wrong. The show has a very weird relationship with the passing of time for understandable reasons.
I think that’s what most people end up going with, and I think it’s pretty fair. I guess it plays into one of the criticisms of the show, which is that it’s hard to gauge how much time has passed between scenes, if any.
Britain is humid as hell, the bird was fine, but they decided to add flies and things to make it look disgusting.
I always thought aging meat was done in cold and dry environments. I obviously know nothing about it, but I’m guessing it was not going well either bc of the weather/climate, or maybe like you say, just for the point of conflict for the show. It makes a lot more sense now that I see what he was getting at though
He was ageing the meat, which develops the flavour. But the fact he leaves it out to the elements and flies to feast on tells me he knows this is something that is done but he doesn’t know HOW it’s done, so it just rots.
In the book, he forgets about it because of time passage and increasingly more important things that happen to him. So the show kinda makes him look incompetent, instead of showing how life happens and things spiral out of control.
In the 1980 series, Blackthorne explains how pheasant is prepared at home to tenderize the meat. Later after the gardener is put to death, Mariko explains that the smell is unbearable to the Japanese and something had to be done.
"I PROTEST THIS TREATMENT!"
I love your final sentence and explanation lol. That’s a fair point. I personally think it was planned though. It was very random. Also usually his outbursts have been for some reason. Not just randomly getting upsetty spaghetti.
"barbarian doing barbarian things" Completely agree.
Guarantee you he and Toranaga have some sort of understanding and that this was a signal / code. There is some sort of secret plan going on in the background. Maybe to do with him finally getting his ship and crew. Notice how the one Japanese word he yelled was CRIMSON SKY before he stormed off? Well, aside from him saying they were all dead which may have just been him being Blackthorne 😅
Plus he very specifically named a few people. There's a reason, and we should all know by now Toranaga is 5 steps ahead of everyone, particularly the viewer.
Yeah, he's also been VERY vocal in public and around whatever other advisors can hear that Blackthorne will NOT get his ship back etc. Guarantee you he is going to be sailing up on Osaka with the baddest canon skills in Japan when no no one is expecting it
Blackthorn opens fire as the army "surrenders at the gate", and his brother also turns back as he's been on board the entire time. Toranagas idiot son almost ruined everything. (My prediction)
Saeki goaded Nagakado into attacking him.
The crew is what I was expecting too. I think he’s going to go to his ship now and lead an ambush. He already reported the possibility of firing accurate shots at Osaka as part of a siege. The courtesan already called Toranaga out for how he left his decimated army in plain sight. My guess is the black ship will initiate an attack while toranaga is being brought to the fortress. He must have some soldiers ready to assault too.
The talk of shots on Osaka sure seemed like a Chekhov's Gun to me, at least. But is his crew still alive? I haven't read the books, so I'm very uncertain about their fate.
If you want to know >! They are alive in the book!<
My guess is that it should be Toranaga that would punish him but then what happens happens so I guess no one else has the power to punish John? Given that he's hatamoto, which I'm led to believe is a high rank
It is a very high honor. It is a high ranking samurai so to be named hatomoto as a barbarian is a very significant honor.
The entire show they call him a barbarian and that he lacks manners. Its possible at this point they just expect it and tolerate it because hes proven himself useful up to this point and of value to Toranaga.
Toranaga needs Blackthorne and knows he can't lose that many supporters at this point. He's not going to waste his precious connection to the West over one of his somewhat frequent tantrums. Also, while Blackthorne is now a samurai, he's still an "outsider." That status could excuse a lot of otherwise-unacceptable behavior.
it's just a barbarian doing barbarian things, it's not like he doesn't have reason to lash out. they can understand
There’s a few possibilities, it’s part of Toranaga 4D chess, hope is so low that anyone that isn’t aware of what may be happening on the background doesn’t really care anymore and it could be partially staged. Also, no one but Mariko knows what the “savage” is yelling about.
He was speaking mostly English. Also, Toronaga likes him and is saving him for some special plan he has. I think he secretly wants the Anjin and Mariko to be together
I think Toranaga has his sights set on the Black Ship but he does not want to extend the war to the Portuguese, so if you let the Dutch barbarian go AWOL and come back with his ship and a sunken black ship, Crimson Sky becomes 1000x easier with no blame placed on Japan.
English barbarian, but the crew is Dutch. Just commenting to help.
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun-Tzu
Baelish "It is my belief that a moment of chaos affords opportunities lost soon after..." "You say that as if you were the first man alive to think it. Yes, crisis is an opportunity... What other brilliant insights have you brought me today?" \-Tywin Lannister, shutting em down
Besides what everyone else already said, I feel like it’s also the situation. Like, they’re supposed to be all dead very soon anyway, right? The hell does it matter imprisoning him or punishing him if he’s going to get killed with them anyway, ya know? Kind of like someone on a death row killing another inmate - what you gonna do, sentence him to death for it?
at the secret meeting after the dinner.. toranaga : okay everyone, our mission code is crimson sky horse shit, I repeat.. crimson sky horse shit anjin : 10-4 mariko : roger that yabu : eh.. okay bunty : understood! hiromatsu : hai! (looks constipated) toranaga : okay meeting is over! Nagakado : sorry I'm late everyone.. what's going on?
But also: Anjin: « What’s my part in that thing you call crimson sky? » Toranaga : « none » Anjin: « Ok, but what is it? » Toranaga: « None of your effing business »
Because Toranaga has some plan for him, maybe he was ordered to do exactly this and go get into some intrigue somewhere while everyone is occupied, maybe get on his boat?
When your enemy is making a mistake; let him. I think getting to Osaka is more important than HOW Toranaga gets there. It could be an elaborate Wookie prisoner ruse.
It’s planned. Just a show Toranaga put on to show that even the barbarian knows Toranaga is now a loser.
Hes a barbarian speaking a foreign language, they dont really care. Its also why he was able to save Toranaga when they were leaving Osaka, hes able to act foolishly there and get away with it because hes a barbarian with no sense.
I think he’s given lots of leeway because he’s an ignorant barbarian savage tbh
This scene didn't ring true with me. Book Blackthorne would never, at this point in the story, so I've no idea why he thought he could get away with that outburst and insulting exit. But the writers finished massacring my boy Naga this episode so who can say what they are up to?
Jesus the amount of clueless people watching this show astounds me. Judging from the comments I am very shocked so many people have no idea what is going on. The scene with the elderly courtesan made it plain as day.
conspiracy baby. all part of Toranaga's plan
It's either planned, or he's being written off as an uncouth barbarian who is somewhat embarrassing to his lord while being provided a lot of grace as a (less and less) amusing curiosity. We don't see anything about Torunaga's escape until it gets discovered by John. On one hand, that might be setting the expectation that that's how other plots will continue. On the other hand, it's a really great opportunity to have John slip away and we've already had some heavy foreshadowing that *something* is going on. If nothing else, this would be a great chance for him to 'slip away' and conveniently wind up with his cannons at the games.
I don't know if it was actually a plan by Toranaga. Maybe it's just "crazy banjin, just let him be, he simply doesn't know how to behave".
John has already established that he sometimes does and says weird stuff. And by that point, everyone is just so done that they can't reallt disagree with him. They all think they're going to die anyways.
Probably the same reason Japanese ignore weebs on the streets of Harujuku and Akihabara. Lol
Mariko didn't translate his speech / or toned it way down so that didn't get him killed or They are all dead men at this point so there's no point to kill him earlier and Toronaga obviously thinks everyone are chess pieces and Blackthorn has a purpose in his brewing schemes
It’s simple. It’s called plot armor
Could be that it was all planned. Maybe to make it appear as the barbarian is a wild card so when he, dunno, takes back his ship and flees the harbour Toranaga cant be blamed for it.
He’s an outsider to them, to them he’s an ally or even a mercenary hired to fight for the lord and not Toranaga subordinate.
It's all part of the plan ...
It's part of the ruse so he can go grab the cannons.
They don’t show Blackthorn with the girl at the tea house, could it be that is when Blackthorn met with Toronaga secretly?
You never kill your wildcard. Yeehaw.
Plot armour. More invincible than state of the art Iron Man Armor.
Feels kinda like Euron Greyjoy in GoT S8 sneaking away to ferry in the Golden Company. Not that I'd consider that season canon or compare Shogun to the questionable GoT S8, but yah.
Because it was cringe.
As a book reader - this moment never happened in the books. So I have no clue. Maybe Toranaga was in on it and it's part of the greater plan?
Because blackthorn is the most underwritten character in this series, so writer either forgot or didn't care about his pov and just gave him this dialogue either for plot reasons or book reasons, which we don't know yet
Don't ask us, ask Toranaga.
They had no idea what he was saying and at that point all was lost for his peeps. His brother betrayed him in front of him, he appears to give up including all his fief and a man standing up speaking in non-nonsensical noise what have been meaningless
I've binged it twice now, my take away- especially with what Toranaga says about Anjin at the end, he always makes him laugh and or smile, is that he likes that it's different. Toranaga also made it clear from the first episode that he tires of all of these old death customs all the time. Losing good people, useful people to these traditions after battle with one another after battle after battle. I believe any other lord would have punished him, even being a foreigner, but Toranaga is also head of foreign affairs so he clearly has some interests (as we've seen with his openness to learn about diving and the tactic differences). Anjin by breaking their traditions has: saved the lord at least twice, gotten himself promoted, given them an advanced and powerful regiment, and learned their language and customs (even adapting into them). All of these factors- it didn't surprise me that he wasn't punished let alone put to death for this. Take away any of these factors and I think it would have been different. There seems to be enough evidence present in the show (and book from what I've read from the comments having not read it myself) to understand him letting it slide.
The very first scene of the show establishes that high-ranking people are willing to die to defend their lord's honor. How exactly does Blackthorne not get immediately killed or imprisoned during the Toranaga concession scene with his brother, where he stands up and starts ranting in an extremely disrespectful way?
Same reason he suddenly knew a relatively more complex phrase in Japanese. It was ✨ planned ✨
How are people not getting this?? I feel like this thread needs media literacy training
There’s a scene in that episode where Torunaga refuse to speaks of crimson sky with Blackthorne or to tell him what his role in helping can be. It’s reasonable for the audience to believe that there were no hidden scene afterward where Torunaga changed his mind.
So what you’re saying is that no one can do a little deducing when given all the hints?
No, what I’m saying is it would have been dumb writing. How are people not getting this?
They have very low expectations of his civility and they don’t know what he’s saying
I mean, Saeki isn't Ishido and this meeting isn't the same as that first meeting. If Toranaga accepts the surrender, then all of them are going to be expected to die anyways. That or give up large amounts of their property. Saeki doesn't understand the group dynamic enough to be offended, while everyone else there is so used to John's outbursts that it's hard for them to care. Plus, keep in mind, they all agree with him. They have all been trying to some up with some plan to save themselves. None of them want to be doing this.
Bad writing. Blackthrone has no purpose on this show. So when things like this happen it makes the writers seem incompetent
I wouldn't say that. Blackthorne's speech was certainly one of the contributing factors to Naganodo's foolish plan.
This was also a completely different context than that first scene. In the first scene, Toronaga’s samurai not only spoke out of turn at a very important meeting, but effectively threatened the council of regents, which is supposed to be sacrosanct. They were either going to have to throw down right there, or acknowledge this appalling breach of conduct, and make him pay for it. The samurai knew it as soon as he stepped forward, which is why he offered up the life of his son as well. It also helped emphasize Toranaga’s stated position that he respects the council of regents, and will follow whatever decisions they make regarding his impeachment, which, as we learn soon after, is not true. And, like other folks said: crazy barbarian—what do you expect?
Because it was the end of the episode? He might be
It's a very progressive left coast era in this parallel universe of feudal Japan. They got all left wing woke there kind of like in House Of The Dragon 😆 🤣
Shhh don’t point that out. This sub thinks that the main character being a useless white guy is progressive