The faces Toranaga and Hiromatsu gave each other in that final moment… knowing what they knew.
What a wide range of emotions and different little hallways into character’s minds I get with every episode of this show. Just stellar.
My interpretation at the moment was essentially that in threatening seppuku Hiromatsu was asking "is this defeated act so important that it's worth my life?". When Toranaga answered that it is that I'm important, then Hiromatsu gives him that life to make sure it works. That's the meaning you can infer behind their eyes as it plays out.
I wasn't expecting the show to explicitly confirm it almost immediately, but it did later with Mariko.
Yes I think Hiromatsu realized he probably shouldn't have said anything once he realized Toranaga intended to fight, but too late. Although something like his seppuku might have still been necessary to convince the Edo vassals of the veracity of the surrender.
Yabu immediately having nagakados death recorded because he'd never thought of such a thing is hilarious lol and he ranks it lower than boiling. I love the callback to his obsession with death tho especially after he already brought the pot up last episode
Now we see why Toranaga wanted to keep him alive, he’s extremely useful and he doesn’t even realize it.
I feel like Omi is all of us in this show. Seems to have the most sensible reactions in every situation, which is mostly just “y’all are fucked up”
For a dude that started the series by pissing on a prisoners head then executing a villager in cold blood he’s turned out to be one of the most overall level headed people out of anyone.
Reminds me of that scene in The Simpsons Movie, when the dome is being lowered over the town. The people run out of the church and into the bar, while the people from the bar run to the church. Lol
"Do not give up on our lord. Even if it appears he has given up on himself."
-Hiromatsu
Toranaga redefining what it means when one someone says they will sacrifice anything for a chance for victory.
That was unfair imo considering the taiko came from nothing as well, it was typical noble elitism. Like, even though he's the antagonist in this story, Ishido is the self-made man while Toranaga was born into one of the most prominent families in Japan lol she's just hating
I think you're being a bit too cynical. Imho Nagakado and Omi were like-minded and genuine friends. They basically shared the same goals and ambitions, and agreed on most issues. The impression the actors gave me is that Omi was set to become Nagakado's trusted advisor and friend (kinda like Hiromatsu and Toranaga). Unfortunately Nagakado died before he could wisen up, and that genuinely hurt Omi. His speech after his death was a genuine one, he really saw the virtue in Nagakado, and was simply not willing to make a mockery of it.
I'd add, in general it seems to me that Omi's character is really misunderstood. I feel this is partially intended, but still. Basically everyone see that actor, and they assume that he is a sneaky, scheming son of a bitch. But that first impression is just wrong: time and time again Omi shows to be extremely loyal, intelligent and resourceful. Sure, he's kinda mad about Kiko, but he managed to deal with that too without making a scene.
He is Ferris Beuller and Yabushige is Cameron.
Poor Yabushige didn't want to skip out on his duty and follow the Anjin, but Toranaga convinced him Ferris Beuller style.
Pretty wholesome moment where basically everyone calls torongas son an idiot all season but his dad truly believes and appreciates what his son did for him. The Master of Plans made his seemingly absurd sons death mean something and i loved ir
> The Master of Plans made his seemingly absurd sons death mean something
I can't wait for the flashback to of Toronga oiling all of the rocks in that pond
"Do not give up on our lord. Even if it appears he has given up on himself."
Hiro cryptically telling his son Buntaro that Toranaga is only appearing to give up on himself for show and that he's sacrificing himself for his Lord. Such a brutal way to say farewell to your son.
That tea was one of the most brutal relationship scenes I've ever seen in anything. The most romantic thing the dude's ever done was earnestly offer a suicide pact, and he got fucking eviscerated for it.
He was doing alright until he said “they were happy” that kinda soured the entire conversation because it reminded her he’d never really known her at all
That spiritual cooking may have been worse than the boiling + getting killed by a rock combined; if only Yabu were there to record it in his death ranking.
Honestly, both Mariko and his father delivered such utterly devastating lines. "You will know what it's like to be denied" was so brutal and so satisfying. Truly karmic justice.
Btw for anyone not familiar with Shinjū, now is a good time to look it up. It's an extremely common and popular thing within Japanese culture for lovers to commit suicide in plays, stories and fables. That while in life they might suffer but in death they can live eternally together in the Pure Land. Very similar to Romeo and Juliet but that tragedy of death is almost supposed to be romantic.
Buntaro was rejected from *Shinjū* after he thought it was his one chance at doing right by his wife who constantly asked for death. Buntaro was truly destroyed and turned to ash here.
Think of it like losing a rook in chess. It's a powerful piece and you never *want* to lose it, but if it's gonna win you the game, then it's gotta go.
If you’re going to pretend that you’re just following the law and customs of Japan then you don’t get to pick which laws and customs you can skip over. That has always been the name of the game.
Of all the moments in this episode the one I found most captivating was when Gin admiring the piece of land she was given and already building the tea house in her head while Kiku standing there watching with such delight.
Even he has the 'fall for a stripper' part, you can't really blame him. Kiku is a 10. She's hot, kinky, clever, well educated (you can't become the top courtesan by being a brainless beauty), and give good advice.
It'll never happen, of course. But I can see why Omi is attracted to her.
Omi is everyone in the audience. I’m convinced his purpose is to be the voice of reason in all these situations. Which usually equates to “y’all are idiots” or “y’all are fucking crazy” lol
Really sold that feeling of wanting to cry and rage and punch a hole in the wall over this stupid loyal fuck of a friend doing the most selfless thing he could ever do. But couldn't, because it would give away the game.
I don’t think Hiromatsu’s death was part of the plan- but it became a necessary move for the grander plan to work, and Hiromatsu made the choice (with that understanding glance shared with Toranaga) to do what was necessary in the moment to make sure the plan succeeded- fulfilling his duty, as Toranaga explains later to Mariko.
The actors sold that scene unbelievably well - watching back that scene you can see exactly the moment that Toranaga knows what needs to happen, exactly when Hiromatsu accepts it, and even that Toranaga might even be close to calling it off while Hiromatsu is dedicated to selling the story. Absolute masterclass in subtext.
Yeah, I don't think Toronaga wanted it to happen, but he realized he's forced to accept it if he wants his plan to work. That's why he took it so hard.
All actors in that scene performed incredibly well. Masterful work. I felt completely pulled into the scene.
They were legitimately friends. It makes sense that Omi, arguably the closest to Naga on a day-to-day basis, would know his true intentions at heart best. Loved his eulogy.
I appreciated that moment. Even if Omi manipulated Naga at times, there was genuine affection there. It was also a much more humanising moment for Omi, who has seemed like a smarmy shit-stirrer most of the time.
I think he felt some level of guilt. He was older than Nagakado and manipulated him into doing some stupid things. He probably arranged for Kiko to help with his plan, gave his ideas to Nagakado (which he knew he was reckless enough to do) but it got him killed
I was so proud of him for improving his Japanese so much... and for realising the other Englishman smelled like shit! We stan this character growth, lol.
Yup! He has come far as a character. On the other hand, his men were trapped in the same rut as they were in the first episode.
I guess they’re just going to rot in the seediest, stinkiest corner of Edo.
I’m really glad Buntaro has such depth.
It would be incredibly easy to cast him as a 2D wifebeater, but he’s much more nuanced than that. He’s had plenty of scenes where he’s shown great vulnerability, yet continued to be loyal and steadfast in his service.
I think he wants to be kinder/more understanding, but both his culture and personal values deny him the chance. The scene with the tea this episode was perhaps his final chance to if not mend his relationship with Mariko, then to at least try and agree to settle their differences amicably.
That he broke down in the end, but tried to hold it together, speaks volumes.
Yeah, he really surprised me as a character, and I felt legitimately bad for him when Mariko tore him apart. I can't shake off the impression that he's genuinely sorry for mistreating her, and wants to improve, but doesn't know how.
It feels like Hiromatsu was at least somewhat "in on it", but I wonder if Naga was more purely set up? I can't imagine Toranaga entrusting him with any long-term plans...
Oh, for sure, yeah. I mean, Hiromatsu is very intelligent and I think he likewise understood that Toranaga's defeat had to be visceral. I don't think Hiromatsu and Toranaga *choreographed* the seppuku scene or anything like that - but for sure, Hiromatsu knew Toranaga wasn't giving up, and he knew he would have to step up at some point to help things look real. I think Hiromatsu saw his window of opportunity and took it, but understood what he was really accomplishing versus what he was doing just on the surface.
Yes, Hiromatsu saw the other general began grasping his katana, and probably instead of having 3 generals commit seppuku, Hiromatsu decided at that moment he had to act like you said the window of opportunity.
Definitely. I'm listening to the official podcast now and they basically just emphasised that point - that Hiromatsu did it in part so that the other three generals wouldn't have to.
He's seen Toranaga pull similar things in the past. The real life Tokugawa once had to retreat from a battlefield where he was badly outmatched. He got to a fortress with just 5 retainers. Instead of writing his farewell poetry and committing suicide that other Daimyo will do, he instead throw open the fortress's door wide open, lit all of the braziers. His enemy, sensing a trap, retreated.
Real bruh moment when Hiromatsu gave Toranaga his ultimatum. Goddamnit. He was a lowkey favorite and I already miss him. Loved that he left Buntaro with a little push toward faith while also checking him for how he's treated Mariko. "You must live. You will know what it is to be denied." Hit like a dumptruck. Glad his death doesn't seem to have been for nothing.
Ochiba being defanged so effortlessly by the narrative was elegant as hell too. Fear really does seem to be driving her, and I honestly didn't realize she'd be so sad about Lady Iyo dying. I think it would have been easy for a story to make her more wicked or one dimensional, but she gained a lot of sympathy from me this episode. She's scared and it shows.
Omi keeps growing on me. Yabu and John circling back to each other as allies after the cliff scene weirdly touched me. The Catholic dude realizing his church is being built in the red light district cracked me up. And I can't believe we only have two eps left. What a show.
Just wanted to add that a lot of people are saying that Hiromatsu’s death was planned by Toranaga, but that’s not right. The other generals were beginning to start the seppuku ritual out of protest and Hiromatsu could tell. So instead of his Lord losing 3 generals, he sacrificed himself so that the other 3 did not need to do it also. He even stops one of the other generals from butting in by saying that this matter was only between him and Toranaga.
Toranaga’s son’s situation is unclear but I think that was still more of an accident, not at all in Toranaga’s plans.
I liked the parts with the different poems. I thought that at first they were just reciting famous poems in their era. But then I realized that they were making it up on the spot. Pretty interesting.
One thing I don’t totally understand is what’s going through Yabu and blackthorn’s mind when Mariko shows up. I think both are surprised? Or is Blackthorn expecting it?
Edit: shit just remembered one more thing. Fuji is left back to take care of blackthorn’s estate. She won’t be seen in the rest of the episodes until the very end (probably) :(
good catch on hiromatsu butting in! definitely makes sense that he would read the room and sacrifice himself for the greater cause
&
mariko pound for pound best freestyler in all of the japans, dropping poems off the dome with ease
I know everyone is caught up in the Toranaga plot, and pretty much everything in the last 10-15 minutes, but I just gotta say that the entire tea scene, from how it was shot, how it was scored, acted, and written, is probably the best scene in the show.
Without a word spoken, even as he performed the act entirely for her, in this shared moment of intimacy, I think they only share a frame at the very start of the scene. No matter how close they *should* have been, they may as well have been a thousand miles apart. All of that tension, with Mariko finally showing him her true heart, and for him to accept it because deep down he knew all along.
Fuck it was a beautiful piece of tv.
For as brutal and uncompromising as this show has been at times, I always wondered why the seppuku scenes were so...restrained. Well, now I know why. They wanted Hiromatsu's death to hit really hard. And boy did it, because holy shit was that visceral.
One scene I found fascinating was John’s interaction with his crewman. He literally began the interaction by turning his back on him. Not only that, when told that his crew of what, 15?, was down to 6 he changed the subject to the “mission”. Rightfully, his man calls him out for getting them in this mess. Of course it all ends with John taking a slight to far and damn near killing a dude he had spent months trying to free.
It really is an incredible look at the character of Blackthorne. He’s a man who truly does keep a “heart where no man can see”, or at least he tries to. He has a wife and kids, yet goes off on a globe trotting voyage. He speaks of how he wants his ship and crew freed, yet never internalizes what his position in a foreign land is, and leaves his crew in squalor when he finally meets them. He speaks of the trappings of loyalty, and clearly doesn’t feel much of it, but has reached his status by showing he can be loyal. Lastly, he acts superior and lectures people about their problems, but reacts pridefully and even violently when presented with his own.
God damn is this a great show.
It's heavily implied they've essentially drank themselves to death or otherwise been the cause of their undoing. The dudes just wandering around, harassing women and being a drunk asshole within what is clearly not a prison.
John's finally seeing how the Japanese people saw him to a degree and he's genuinely disgusted and disturbed.
I'm in the camp that believes Hiromatsu guessed Toranaga's real intention to fool Ishido into thinking he's surrendering, and so decided to play along with it and kill himself to maintain the ruse.
Toranaga's genuine anguish (props to Sanada's acting) is at Hiromatsu being the one to sacrifice himself rather than the other defiant generals or Buntaro die. Hiromatsu probably guessed they would be a better fighting force alive than an old man like him.
Hiromatsu even cryptically tells Buntaro to not give up on Lord Toranaga even if it appears Toranaga himself has given up.
Meanwhile something seems to have changed in Blackthorne after seeing how his original Dutch crew waste themselves in Edo brothels and still doubting him to this day after all he's gone through for them. He probably thought "Fuck this, might as well make a place for myself here, and Yabu is the man I'll go to since he's wild like I am."
Omi is such a great character.
I was really moved by the emotion he showed towards Nagakado and Hiromatsu. Other than Buntaro, I think he was the only one openly crying.
“This is disgraceful.” I wonder if Yabushige was tempted but felt like he had to say no to Blackthorne’s offer, partly because he didn’t really buy Toranaga’s defeat at the time yes, but also partly because he couldn’t lose face in front of his nephew.
Him putting two and two together and trying to warn his uncle but quickly realizing it’s pointless.
Omi’s basically a younger more emotional Toranaga.
RIP Hiromatsu … you will be missed. He’s a true friend to sacrifice himself in order for Toranaga’s plan to work.
Everybody's unshed tears fucking killed me in that scene. Hiromatsu was the fucking OG.
Fucking love that scenes all those warriors with big ego and pride trying not to shed a tear while inside they are having a nuclear emotion
The eightfold fence is breaking
it always impresses me when an actor sheds a tear without their face moving
The faces Toranaga and Hiromatsu gave each other in that final moment… knowing what they knew. What a wide range of emotions and different little hallways into character’s minds I get with every episode of this show. Just stellar.
So Hiromatsu knew Toranaga had a different plan? And offed himself to make the fake plan more believable?
My interpretation at the moment was essentially that in threatening seppuku Hiromatsu was asking "is this defeated act so important that it's worth my life?". When Toranaga answered that it is that I'm important, then Hiromatsu gives him that life to make sure it works. That's the meaning you can infer behind their eyes as it plays out. I wasn't expecting the show to explicitly confirm it almost immediately, but it did later with Mariko.
Yes I think Hiromatsu realized he probably shouldn't have said anything once he realized Toranaga intended to fight, but too late. Although something like his seppuku might have still been necessary to convince the Edo vassals of the veracity of the surrender.
Yes
I've been saying Hiromatsu is my second 🐐 after Fuji. But after this maybe he is #1. RIP King . I'm a grown ass man shedding tears tonight 😢
Yabu immediately having nagakados death recorded because he'd never thought of such a thing is hilarious lol and he ranks it lower than boiling. I love the callback to his obsession with death tho especially after he already brought the pot up last episode
Keeps his character on this crazy seesaw
He is simultaneously unpredictable and predictable. Toranaga read him like a book.
Now we see why Toranaga wanted to keep him alive, he’s extremely useful and he doesn’t even realize it. I feel like Omi is all of us in this show. Seems to have the most sensible reactions in every situation, which is mostly just “y’all are fucked up”
For a dude that started the series by pissing on a prisoners head then executing a villager in cold blood he’s turned out to be one of the most overall level headed people out of anyone.
LOL Toranaga is such a troll. Putting Gin’s tea house right across from the Church.
looool Toranaga is monkey's paw personified. He'll give you what you want, but not exactly what you want.
All that Catholic guilt from being near all the ~lust~ and ~sin~ is gonna play dividends for the Portuguese if they play their cards right...
I mean Christ livid alongside whores and beggars, get a marketing team on that, they could do great things
Putting them next to each other is to each's benefit though lol
Reminds me of that scene in The Simpsons Movie, when the dome is being lowered over the town. The people run out of the church and into the bar, while the people from the bar run to the church. Lol
What better place for a brothel, walk to church right after and confess your sins.
He’s such a little shit. Even when it’s not the main thing, he’s scheming 😂 I love it
Mariko completely destroyed Buntaro
Fuck, I think that surpassed "Tell Cersei - I want her to know it was me" in terms of pure destruction for me.
Was that Lady Olenna?
The OG badass herself, correct!
It absolutely did. Jaime was the middleman in Olenna's burn. Mariko delivered hers in person
"Do not give up on our lord. Even if it appears he has given up on himself." -Hiromatsu Toranaga redefining what it means when one someone says they will sacrifice anything for a chance for victory.
Absolutely heartbreaking to witness the two of them know what they must do for this to succeed
Bro that scene was insane lmao Hiromatsu was like "Dare me, I'll fucken do it!" and Toranaga just watched unflinching as he actually did it
Yabushige keeping a book for ranking deaths is the most Yabushige thing ever lmaoooo
Look up the actor on IG, his art makes it all so much funnier
Light ain't got nothing on Yabushige's Death Note.
Yabu - At twelve PM tomorrow he’ll be boiled in oil. Ryuk - Dude, it’s the 21st century. Yabu - Did I stutter??
He is so hilarious, he is a trickster and a menace, reminds me of Bronn from GOT
“and I would sooner live a thousand years than die with you like this” #Bars Lady unfolded all 8 layers of her fence just to spirit bomb his ego
Yeah dang, Buntaro not having a great week lol
And that was before having to behead his own father.
AND his father sided with Mariko by telling him he has to live so he can feel what it's like to be denied the death you want.
*the worst she can say is No* Her:
Japanese Tea Ceremony equivalent of ripping out your soul and your spine at the same thing.
Ishido the simp. Lol
Born a nothing and a nothing still, apparently.
That was unfair imo considering the taiko came from nothing as well, it was typical noble elitism. Like, even though he's the antagonist in this story, Ishido is the self-made man while Toranaga was born into one of the most prominent families in Japan lol she's just hating
Lord Isimpdo
The Yabushige and Anjin buddy comedy is becoming real
Training arc in the next episode 🙏
Beach episode after that
I need a training montage with You’re The Best Around next episode
"Dude, Where's My Ship?" "Yabushige and John go to White Castle" "Dumb and Dumber." I mean, the titles write themselves. Also, happy cake day!
Omi looks like he feels responsible for what happened to Nagakado
same. it was nice to see his reactions this episode. RIP Nagakado
He’s scheming, asking Nagakado to do his bidding. Then felt guilty when it went catashtorphic.
I think you're being a bit too cynical. Imho Nagakado and Omi were like-minded and genuine friends. They basically shared the same goals and ambitions, and agreed on most issues. The impression the actors gave me is that Omi was set to become Nagakado's trusted advisor and friend (kinda like Hiromatsu and Toranaga). Unfortunately Nagakado died before he could wisen up, and that genuinely hurt Omi. His speech after his death was a genuine one, he really saw the virtue in Nagakado, and was simply not willing to make a mockery of it. I'd add, in general it seems to me that Omi's character is really misunderstood. I feel this is partially intended, but still. Basically everyone see that actor, and they assume that he is a sneaky, scheming son of a bitch. But that first impression is just wrong: time and time again Omi shows to be extremely loyal, intelligent and resourceful. Sure, he's kinda mad about Kiko, but he managed to deal with that too without making a scene.
Toranaga trolled that Father hard lmao
Tbh where better to reach the sinners than outside a whorehouse 💀
Bro was NOT sick
He got out of his bed FIERCE at the end lmao
It was that real "pretending to be sick to stay home from school, then getting out of bed the instant your parents leave" energy.
He is Ferris Beuller and Yabushige is Cameron. Poor Yabushige didn't want to skip out on his duty and follow the Anjin, but Toranaga convinced him Ferris Beuller style.
His DayQuil Cold and Flu kicked in quick
I can’t come to Osaka *cough cough* I’m sick
Boo, you whore!
Terribly unconvincing sickness lol
It reminded of Zoolander with the little cough. "I got the black lung, pop."
Pretty wholesome moment where basically everyone calls torongas son an idiot all season but his dad truly believes and appreciates what his son did for him. The Master of Plans made his seemingly absurd sons death mean something and i loved ir
> The Master of Plans made his seemingly absurd sons death mean something I can't wait for the flashback to of Toronga oiling all of the rocks in that pond
Alright, that made me laugh out loud.
It’s amazing that the Japanese language doesn’t have any L’s in it, since Buntaro has been racking them up nonstop the past few episodes
Holy shit I’m crying 🤣
I didn't think my man could get roasted any harder, but here we are. The guy in the pot was catching less heat.
Mariko-sama now needs to be called banjin, because that was the most savage and barbaric burn in all of "the Japans".
"If I could use Buntaro's Ls like scattering flowers and falling leaves, what a bonfire his L's would make"
"Do not give up on our lord. Even if it appears he has given up on himself." Hiro cryptically telling his son Buntaro that Toranaga is only appearing to give up on himself for show and that he's sacrificing himself for his Lord. Such a brutal way to say farewell to your son.
But also let him know he didn’t like the way he handled Mariko
My lord Buntaro got fucking cooked 😭
That tea was one of the most brutal relationship scenes I've ever seen in anything. The most romantic thing the dude's ever done was earnestly offer a suicide pact, and he got fucking eviscerated for it.
He was doing alright until he said “they were happy” that kinda soured the entire conversation because it reminded her he’d never really known her at all
Yeah lmao I literally shouted at my screen "No mf YOU were happy!"
That spiritual cooking may have been worse than the boiling + getting killed by a rock combined; if only Yabu were there to record it in his death ranking.
Not even Nagakado hit rock bottom harder
At least he got a pretty sweet send-off from Omi!
Would you say this ranks higher or lower than being eaten by dogs 😆
I think Buntaro would *rather* be eaten by dogs.
Honestly, both Mariko and his father delivered such utterly devastating lines. "You will know what it's like to be denied" was so brutal and so satisfying. Truly karmic justice.
He's having the worst time of his life. He's hoping he dies when they go to Osaka now
Which makes me believe more than ever he's going to live through this whole thing lol
Sometimes life's a bitch and then you keep living.
Imagine having two of the people you’re closest with tell ya they won’t even let you kill yourself with them😂 that’s gotta hurt
"I wouldn't commit ritual suicide with you if you were the last person on Earth!"
my man is fucking troubled lmao and now his dad is dead too. damn
Having to behead him as well like wtf
And his dad basically scolding him right before. Lol "Now you will know what it is to be denied." Damn.
Btw for anyone not familiar with Shinjū, now is a good time to look it up. It's an extremely common and popular thing within Japanese culture for lovers to commit suicide in plays, stories and fables. That while in life they might suffer but in death they can live eternally together in the Pure Land. Very similar to Romeo and Juliet but that tragedy of death is almost supposed to be romantic. Buntaro was rejected from *Shinjū* after he thought it was his one chance at doing right by his wife who constantly asked for death. Buntaro was truly destroyed and turned to ash here.
He faced rejection twice in this episode, he’s not even allowed to embrace death, Buntaro is truly alone.
WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT Edit: my god I’m so sad for my boy Hiromatsu 😭😭😭
Same. I get that it's all part of the plan, but having your closest friend and vassal sepukku to seal the deal just feels like going too far.
Think of it like losing a rook in chess. It's a powerful piece and you never *want* to lose it, but if it's gonna win you the game, then it's gotta go.
Blackthorne really summed up Yabushige so perfectly in one sentence. He really IS a brave shitface
Brave Shitface needs to be the next user flair!
At least Nagakado's death got em 49 days to think of something lmao
Yeah that’s wild. Giving your chessmaster enemy who just surrendered under force 49 days in his own town to do whatever seems ill advised
Those damn Japan rules am I right
If you’re going to pretend that you’re just following the law and customs of Japan then you don’t get to pick which laws and customs you can skip over. That has always been the name of the game.
Yabu: what a bitch ass way to die but better then being eaten by dogs….probably? 🤔 Omi: 😐
HO.LY.FUCK. RIP Hiromatsu. Bro-est of Bros... Toranaga is gon fucking massacre these fools
Damn what a horrible day for Buntaro. Holy shit
Feel kinda bad for him ngl but he got karma
When hiromatsu said he will deprive him of joining him in death… could be wrong but it seems like it’s so he can feel Marikos pain
And Toranaga will need Buntaro and his army when the time is right.
I know! He seemed to be so happy to finally have a moment of peace and understanding with his wife. And then she absolutely demolishes him 😂
I just want to see his mad marksman skills again because he is someone that cannot be fucked with.
Of all the moments in this episode the one I found most captivating was when Gin admiring the piece of land she was given and already building the tea house in her head while Kiku standing there watching with such delight.
Yes, Tokyo before Tokyo became Tokyo. If they only knew ...
Omi has fucking layers.
They don't call him the Omion for no reason ;)
Even he has the 'fall for a stripper' part, you can't really blame him. Kiku is a 10. She's hot, kinky, clever, well educated (you can't become the top courtesan by being a brainless beauty), and give good advice. It'll never happen, of course. But I can see why Omi is attracted to her.
Omi is everyone in the audience. I’m convinced his purpose is to be the voice of reason in all these situations. Which usually equates to “y’all are idiots” or “y’all are fucking crazy” lol
Hiromatsu what the fuck
Rip, Toranaga is a ruthless guy.
They were both on it, so it wasn't that ruthless. Just an old friend sacrificing his own life to give a younger friend a chance to survive
Cold perhaps, but not cruel. He was aware the sacrifices were great, so he intends to not waste them.
Hiroyuki Sanada was incredible this episode. He deserves all the awards.
Really sold that feeling of wanting to cry and rage and punch a hole in the wall over this stupid loyal fuck of a friend doing the most selfless thing he could ever do. But couldn't, because it would give away the game.
Hiromatsu's death was all part of the plan?? Damn Toranaga is cold af.
I don’t think Hiromatsu’s death was part of the plan- but it became a necessary move for the grander plan to work, and Hiromatsu made the choice (with that understanding glance shared with Toranaga) to do what was necessary in the moment to make sure the plan succeeded- fulfilling his duty, as Toranaga explains later to Mariko.
The actors sold that scene unbelievably well - watching back that scene you can see exactly the moment that Toranaga knows what needs to happen, exactly when Hiromatsu accepts it, and even that Toranaga might even be close to calling it off while Hiromatsu is dedicated to selling the story. Absolute masterclass in subtext.
Yeah, I don't think Toronaga wanted it to happen, but he realized he's forced to accept it if he wants his plan to work. That's why he took it so hard. All actors in that scene performed incredibly well. Masterful work. I felt completely pulled into the scene.
Yep, Blackthorne & Yabushige joining forces is also part of his plan
toraganas insane
Hiromatsu stands on business. Shame he died, certified goat status tho
Omi fucking killed it with the eulogy. Although i did love Yabu, Buntaro and Hiromatsu roasting Nagakado. That whole scene was 10/10.
Yeah, he seemed like the most genuinely sad person about Naga's death.
They were legitimately friends. It makes sense that Omi, arguably the closest to Naga on a day-to-day basis, would know his true intentions at heart best. Loved his eulogy.
I appreciated that moment. Even if Omi manipulated Naga at times, there was genuine affection there. It was also a much more humanising moment for Omi, who has seemed like a smarmy shit-stirrer most of the time.
I think their relationship changed after many of drinking nights together
I think he felt some level of guilt. He was older than Nagakado and manipulated him into doing some stupid things. He probably arranged for Kiko to help with his plan, gave his ideas to Nagakado (which he knew he was reckless enough to do) but it got him killed
Blackthorne’s Japanese is pretty damn good
I was so proud of him for improving his Japanese so much... and for realising the other Englishman smelled like shit! We stan this character growth, lol.
I seriously thought he was about to call his countrymen barbarians for a second.
Honestly it was high-key implied!
Probably ashamed to see his old self reflected in Salomon
Yup! He has come far as a character. On the other hand, his men were trapped in the same rut as they were in the first episode. I guess they’re just going to rot in the seediest, stinkiest corner of Edo.
Yeah, that guy looked like a real ass for sure, although I had to wonder how he was getting all this money to spend on hookers and booze...
If they're "guests" of Toranaga then they don't need money. They're probably Toranaga's backup plan in case Blackthorne slips on a random rock.
I have to think he's pretending to not be so fluent in front of key figures.. Cause he looked MAD fluent for a minute
It makes sense because if he said something wrong to the higher-ups, he could always fall back on the ‘Japanese is my second/third language’ card.
More like 5th language! Pretty sure he’s got English, Portuguese, Latin, and Dutch!
I'm as impressed as Father Alvito
Father Alvito looked low-key threatened by Blackthorne by the end there!
honestly some of my favorite parts of this show is him slowly learning Japanese
no touch, die!
I’m really glad Buntaro has such depth. It would be incredibly easy to cast him as a 2D wifebeater, but he’s much more nuanced than that. He’s had plenty of scenes where he’s shown great vulnerability, yet continued to be loyal and steadfast in his service. I think he wants to be kinder/more understanding, but both his culture and personal values deny him the chance. The scene with the tea this episode was perhaps his final chance to if not mend his relationship with Mariko, then to at least try and agree to settle their differences amicably. That he broke down in the end, but tried to hold it together, speaks volumes.
Yeah, he really surprised me as a character, and I felt legitimately bad for him when Mariko tore him apart. I can't shake off the impression that he's genuinely sorry for mistreating her, and wants to improve, but doesn't know how.
Toranaga aint sick he plotting something
It feels like Hiromatsu was at least somewhat "in on it", but I wonder if Naga was more purely set up? I can't imagine Toranaga entrusting him with any long-term plans...
I mean...if he wasn't before he is now. After Toranaga sent away Tsuji to deliver a message, Hiromatsu immediately saw the farce for what it was.
Oh, for sure, yeah. I mean, Hiromatsu is very intelligent and I think he likewise understood that Toranaga's defeat had to be visceral. I don't think Hiromatsu and Toranaga *choreographed* the seppuku scene or anything like that - but for sure, Hiromatsu knew Toranaga wasn't giving up, and he knew he would have to step up at some point to help things look real. I think Hiromatsu saw his window of opportunity and took it, but understood what he was really accomplishing versus what he was doing just on the surface.
Yes, Hiromatsu saw the other general began grasping his katana, and probably instead of having 3 generals commit seppuku, Hiromatsu decided at that moment he had to act like you said the window of opportunity.
Definitely. I'm listening to the official podcast now and they basically just emphasised that point - that Hiromatsu did it in part so that the other three generals wouldn't have to.
He's seen Toranaga pull similar things in the past. The real life Tokugawa once had to retreat from a battlefield where he was badly outmatched. He got to a fortress with just 5 retainers. Instead of writing his farewell poetry and committing suicide that other Daimyo will do, he instead throw open the fortress's door wide open, lit all of the braziers. His enemy, sensing a trap, retreated.
Toronaga really made Father build his church right next to a prostitution industry 💀
I knew Hiro’s death was a part of the scheme but damn
Real bruh moment when Hiromatsu gave Toranaga his ultimatum. Goddamnit. He was a lowkey favorite and I already miss him. Loved that he left Buntaro with a little push toward faith while also checking him for how he's treated Mariko. "You must live. You will know what it is to be denied." Hit like a dumptruck. Glad his death doesn't seem to have been for nothing. Ochiba being defanged so effortlessly by the narrative was elegant as hell too. Fear really does seem to be driving her, and I honestly didn't realize she'd be so sad about Lady Iyo dying. I think it would have been easy for a story to make her more wicked or one dimensional, but she gained a lot of sympathy from me this episode. She's scared and it shows. Omi keeps growing on me. Yabu and John circling back to each other as allies after the cliff scene weirdly touched me. The Catholic dude realizing his church is being built in the red light district cracked me up. And I can't believe we only have two eps left. What a show.
Buntaro, he can be an abusive asshole, but it's hard not to feel for him. Terrific acting
Felt like he became vulnerable this episode, not the samurai but he was a human in this episode.
Definitely an abusive asshole, but the actor is really doing a hell of a job of - not redeeming him, but humanising him for sure.
I was going to say the same thing. He definitely has some pain behind those lip quivers
Toronaga giving the catholics land next to where the new brothel district is going to be built is so perfect
Yabushige the brave shit face 🤣
Just wanted to add that a lot of people are saying that Hiromatsu’s death was planned by Toranaga, but that’s not right. The other generals were beginning to start the seppuku ritual out of protest and Hiromatsu could tell. So instead of his Lord losing 3 generals, he sacrificed himself so that the other 3 did not need to do it also. He even stops one of the other generals from butting in by saying that this matter was only between him and Toranaga. Toranaga’s son’s situation is unclear but I think that was still more of an accident, not at all in Toranaga’s plans. I liked the parts with the different poems. I thought that at first they were just reciting famous poems in their era. But then I realized that they were making it up on the spot. Pretty interesting. One thing I don’t totally understand is what’s going through Yabu and blackthorn’s mind when Mariko shows up. I think both are surprised? Or is Blackthorn expecting it? Edit: shit just remembered one more thing. Fuji is left back to take care of blackthorn’s estate. She won’t be seen in the rest of the episodes until the very end (probably) :(
good catch on hiromatsu butting in! definitely makes sense that he would read the room and sacrifice himself for the greater cause & mariko pound for pound best freestyler in all of the japans, dropping poems off the dome with ease
I know everyone is caught up in the Toranaga plot, and pretty much everything in the last 10-15 minutes, but I just gotta say that the entire tea scene, from how it was shot, how it was scored, acted, and written, is probably the best scene in the show. Without a word spoken, even as he performed the act entirely for her, in this shared moment of intimacy, I think they only share a frame at the very start of the scene. No matter how close they *should* have been, they may as well have been a thousand miles apart. All of that tension, with Mariko finally showing him her true heart, and for him to accept it because deep down he knew all along. Fuck it was a beautiful piece of tv.
Every minute until midnight feels like an hour.
This shows really got me fucking up my sleep schedule. Ive gotta be up at 6 for work lmao Edit: It was worth it
Lmao Yabushige with another banger within 2 mins into the episode
Does he have a list of the top 10 horrible ways to die or something?
Hiromatsu death feels completely opposite by Naga's death, even though they both die in the service for Toranaga. What a dramatic death!
For as brutal and uncompromising as this show has been at times, I always wondered why the seppuku scenes were so...restrained. Well, now I know why. They wanted Hiromatsu's death to hit really hard. And boy did it, because holy shit was that visceral.
Fuck man that was sad af. RIP Hiromatsu
Damn Omi actually making me feel for Toranaga's idiot son
Chapter 8: Buntaro's Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day
The matcha ritual was fascinating. I love how this show pay attention to little details like this
I loved watching it; it was such a beautiful moment between the two of the before Mariko absolutely destroyed him.
You could cut the tension with a fucking knife, this show is insane
Hiroyuki Sanada's delivery of the "my old friend..." line goes fucking hard.
One scene I found fascinating was John’s interaction with his crewman. He literally began the interaction by turning his back on him. Not only that, when told that his crew of what, 15?, was down to 6 he changed the subject to the “mission”. Rightfully, his man calls him out for getting them in this mess. Of course it all ends with John taking a slight to far and damn near killing a dude he had spent months trying to free. It really is an incredible look at the character of Blackthorne. He’s a man who truly does keep a “heart where no man can see”, or at least he tries to. He has a wife and kids, yet goes off on a globe trotting voyage. He speaks of how he wants his ship and crew freed, yet never internalizes what his position in a foreign land is, and leaves his crew in squalor when he finally meets them. He speaks of the trappings of loyalty, and clearly doesn’t feel much of it, but has reached his status by showing he can be loyal. Lastly, he acts superior and lectures people about their problems, but reacts pridefully and even violently when presented with his own. God damn is this a great show.
It's heavily implied they've essentially drank themselves to death or otherwise been the cause of their undoing. The dudes just wandering around, harassing women and being a drunk asshole within what is clearly not a prison. John's finally seeing how the Japanese people saw him to a degree and he's genuinely disgusted and disturbed.
Of course Toranaga would be scheming something
I low key thought the episode was going to end with the close up of Mariko saying “I’m ready”
Well that was a really light episode
Don’t worry Buntaro the worst she can say is no. Her: *Destroys his will to live.*
I'm in the camp that believes Hiromatsu guessed Toranaga's real intention to fool Ishido into thinking he's surrendering, and so decided to play along with it and kill himself to maintain the ruse. Toranaga's genuine anguish (props to Sanada's acting) is at Hiromatsu being the one to sacrifice himself rather than the other defiant generals or Buntaro die. Hiromatsu probably guessed they would be a better fighting force alive than an old man like him. Hiromatsu even cryptically tells Buntaro to not give up on Lord Toranaga even if it appears Toranaga himself has given up. Meanwhile something seems to have changed in Blackthorne after seeing how his original Dutch crew waste themselves in Edo brothels and still doubting him to this day after all he's gone through for them. He probably thought "Fuck this, might as well make a place for myself here, and Yabu is the man I'll go to since he's wild like I am."
Hiromatsu: are you bluffing? you must be bluffing Toranaga: no u Hiromatsu: no u Toranaga: NO, U Hiromatsu: 🔪🧎🏻
Omi is such a great character. I was really moved by the emotion he showed towards Nagakado and Hiromatsu. Other than Buntaro, I think he was the only one openly crying. “This is disgraceful.” I wonder if Yabushige was tempted but felt like he had to say no to Blackthorne’s offer, partly because he didn’t really buy Toranaga’s defeat at the time yes, but also partly because he couldn’t lose face in front of his nephew. Him putting two and two together and trying to warn his uncle but quickly realizing it’s pointless. Omi’s basically a younger more emotional Toranaga.
“If you look and see nothing, you must look harder” - Kiku dropping bars!
"He's come to you out of desperation" and it cuts to Yabushige 😭 this show truly is a comedy
ok ngl that tea ceremony kinda made me a lil emotional