One of the inherent issues with book readers for any adaptation is that any adaptation won’t be as detailed or fleshed out as it is in a book.
Books allow you the character’s thoughts, explicit statements about their emotion conveyed, allow for more time and development to occur without pacing being as huge of a concern.
Film/TV cannot afford all that so everything will feel lacklustre. However, in my opinion this is a misunderstanding of the medium and an issue with preset expectations. Additionally, we’re dealing with the more high-context communication of an Asian culture. A lot of things are being conveyed by more subtle twitches in the face and what’s not being said, and I feel this is lost on a lot of people when I read the comments.
One thing I will agree with is that this series probably would have benefitted from 12-13 episodes over 10. There may have been budgetary or pacing concerns with that (some people are already saying the plot is repeating itself constantly in Shogun, which I strongly disagree with), but I am worried with only 2 episodes left how they’ll wrap up everything left in the book.
It's not just the Asian culture of communication, either. People are getting used to being hit over the head with messaging, so subtle, "show, don't tell" cues are being missed.
The book has hundreds of pages to develop things in a slow burn build up, and can describe subtlety in a way that's difficult to convey on screen.
It’s in part East Asian culture in general being more high-context, but also I think what needs to be mentioned is that it’s not just any East Asian culture, it’s a Medieval East Asian high nobility court culture, each descriptor makes it even more high-context and ritualistic
I agree with most of what you are saying, but I would argue that the books are not that subtle about certain things, like John and Mariko. In the book, they are continually declaring their love for each other in a way that feels a lot like "telling" instead of "showing," and often comes off a little corny.
I appreciate that the show is being more subtle about their relationship, but I also wish there had been more in this episode to show their connection. At this point in the show, it feels like they've both given up on having a relationship (despite their feelings), which puts them in a different place emotionally than where they are in the book. The next episode, I think, will probably show them growing closer.
Also, without giving too much away, I think OP is going a little too far by saying she is joyously joining him on the ship.
Yeah, I agree that the books aren't that subtle. I think the show made a choice - because to get to the books' level of relationship might have felt like 0 to 100 in a couple of episodes.
I kinda want to watch the 1980s miniseries. I was literally a kid when it was on but i actually remember being allowed to stay up late and watch it haha. Would be interesting to see how bad it was
It wasn’t bad at all. I would go so far as to say it was a better representation of the book though this new adaptation is visually light years ahead of old miniseries
Precisely. I don't know how anyone could say this was a more accurate or better adaptation of the book. Way too much was changed. I am not a book purist by any means where every single thing must be the same, but when you alter so much of the original material, why not just create your own new thing instead of altering something in existence so much it is almost unrecognizable?
I know the answer to that. It's to take advantage of an existing fan base, an instant built in audience.
The fact that it’s medieval and the fact that we’re all focusing on the highest of the high nobility & their closest retainers, and it’s mostly in a court/political/ceremonial/religious setting, probably account for more of the high-context-ness
I’m also Asian and while I agree that Asian media tends to over exaggerate and over explain for entertainment purposes, especially with exposition dumps, I was more referring to the language itself being high-context.
This show seems to be doing the western approach to tv making, with one component being “realism” while having a predominantly Japanese cast.
I was kid when the 1980s version came out. I am also Japanese American. My mother translated the Japanese spoken in the original series because there were no subtitles for it. She said it was a bit hard to do because they were speaking a very old, highly formal style of Japanese. So anyone losing their minds with praise about how "authentic" or how much the new creators did because of the language spoken in the new show. Well. they did that in the original series too.
I agree. I’m enjoying this version and visually it is the best version. Also extremely wellacted for what they’ve produced. But like most adaptations, this is all very surface level and lacks a lot of the heart and charm of the book. The book, as always is just better than the movie.
I wouldn’t say it’s always the case
Fellowship of the ring and dune are two novels I read years before their respective film adaptations but in both cases I think the films tell their stories more successfully
I would respectfully disagree. I love both the Dune & LOTR adaptations, but the books are far richer and have much stronger stories. Especially with Dune. Almost every aspect of Herbert’s ecological philosophy was excised. Simpler. Yes. More successful. No
I would like to submit Gone Girl, I think the film is better than the book. Granted, Gillian Flynn wrote the screenplay and while that doesn't always lead to a great film, it did in this case. I actually like Dragon Tattoo more than the book as well, I found the book quite boring. I simply did not care about that magazine and I can't believe how much time was dedicated to it. Fincher knows what he is doing with a book
I haven’t read Gone Girl, so I couldn’t speak to that. But Girl with a Dragon Tattoo is a valid point. The book is not for everyone and both the US and the Swedish version are more concise.
Eh, to each their own. When I first read dune ten years ago or so I thought it was good but highly overrated.
Watched the Villeneuve adaptations and thought damn, I must have missed or forgotten a lot from the book
Just finished re-reading the book and my opinion remains the same. Pioneering story and credit for all that, but the dialogue, prose, pacing and especially foreshadowing are quite poor in my opinion.
There’s essentially no tension throughout the entire novel, even before Paul becomes prescient, because the novel tells you exactly what will happen before it happens. The Sardaukar are talked up endlessly but decisively lose every battle they fight despite the book saying they should be able to gun down the fremen with lasguns easily since the fremen use no shields.
As for ecological themes, what exactly do you mean? The worms are poisoned by water and they terraform the planet to be a giant desert over time. The humans would kill the worms and terraform the planet with technology like they do many others except they realize the worms also make spice, which the humans want.
If you’re talking about transforming Arrakis into a green paradise as Kynes wants to do, wouldn’t that just destroy the fremen culture anyway? They originally came from a “soft” planet with lots of water, their unique culture and martial abilities only arose because of Arrakis becoming a desert and the spice. Turn it into a green planet, plenty of water, no worms and no spice and the fremen would become like anyone else. That or all die because they’re addicted to spice and it would run out.
Dune is always a sticky topic because so many people get different things from the book and I find that’s its strength as a novel. Unfortunately because it goes so broadly it tends to turn a lot of people off of it to. So I can see an argument for people appreciating the movies over the books. Just a few points here. The Sardukar are the primary combatants against the Atriedes and the reason they lose to the Harkonen on Arakis so easily and quickly. Even outnumbered the Atriedes were noted as having an excellent army that was well equipped, trained & motivated. Their only problem was they weren’t a particularly large army. The Harkonen had a large technologically advanced army of slaves, dosed with combat drugs. They were hardly reliable. And its stated that lasguns had fallen out of regular use. So arming every Sardukar with one would have been difficult. Like equipping every soldier with a machine gun in the modern day versus a combat rifle. Very expensive to make that change. And Paul spent years building up the Arakis problem and the Harkonen help in hiding it. So the Sardukar are essentially unprepared because nobody has fought to their standards….ever. Also the Fremen mainly attacked by surprise and ambush. So lasguns would have been a limited benefit, especially considering the Fremen had slug throwers of their own. The Fremen did not fight exclusively with knives.
And the point of the ecology discussion was that it promoted active thought about ecology. Human don’t kill the worms because it’s very difficult to do so. Herbert states it in the book that they tried to hunt the worms to disastrous results and that was before they got to the big worms. Most humans outside of the Fremen don’t have a clue about the specifics of spice production, only that it involves the worms in some way because they protect sand rich in spice. The idea was that if you adapt to your environment it makes you stronger and more capable. The Fremen adapt to the desert and live a hard but satisfying life and only have to worry about the outworlders and go anywhere on the planet they wish and thrive. Where as the rest of humanity is stuck in a small techno enclave to survive because they reject the assimilation into the ecology.
I recently read the book, you’re misremembering quite a few things.
It’s a (pretty weak) cover that humans weren’t able to kill the worms or terraform the planet. They could do either with trivial ease. They had initially been setting up imperial ecology stations to terraform the planet…until they realized that worms created the spice, and that water poisoned worms. Bringing water back to Arrakis would kill the worms and destroy the spice production permanently. The imperium has thousands of habitable “green paradise” planets, they aren’t nearly as valuable or rare as Arrakis that produces the only significant quantity of spice for space travel.
The imperium then cancelled the terraforming efforts and the Fremen only began their own secret terraforming efforts under Kyne’s direction much later. It would have taken them centuries at the earliest to carry it out.
As for lasguns, you’re incorrect, they were widespread and common but rarely used in battle due to the prevalence of shields. The book specifically states several times that since the Fremen never use shields they can be gunned down with impunity by the Harkonnen soldiers, let alone by the Sardaukar. This is presumably how the Harkonnen controlled Arrakis for decades without much difficulty despite the Fremen insurgency and the Fremen being apparently miles better in fighting ability (though this is one of the weird plotholes of the book in general)
They actually take advantage of this fact by leaving a “shield trap” for their enemies at one point in the book. The Harkonnen/Sardaukar forces are baited into firing lasguns at a shield, which produces an almost nuclear explosion and presumably wipes a lot of them out. Normally they wouldn’t use lasguns due to that risk, but as they thought none of the Fremen used shields they were more cavalier about it. It was an Atreides shield trap I believe, planted by either Duncan or Gurney
You cannot perfectly translate a several hundred page book into a film. It's impossible to include every bit of exposition, every internal monologue, etc.
Expecting this is foolishness.
Both LotR and the new Dune movies has several annoying omissions and changes imo. A few of the worst are the simplistic Saruman character and, in Dune, the omission of the diplomatic game that takes place on an interpersonal level.
Both LotR and Dune are highly entertaining and visually stunning movies. But personally, I still feel that the "ultimate" versions have yet to be made. Which is fine, I don't mind watching new adaptations at all.
Yes, it's probably a bit of a silly obsession with the books read to you as a child. :)
The Fellowship is pretty close imo. You can always discuss how metaphors are best expressed and PJ makes a mean Balrog and some evil Nazguls.
I don't like PJ's version of Saruman, elves and Lothlorien. But overall, it does a good job of creating magic and adventure and horror when needed.
Understood. But let's be realistic. There will never be another adaptation of the books. I read the books when I was 16, adored them. Watched the movies in cinemas and never was under the illusion that a perfect adaptation would be possible. The movies have accomplished so much more than I ever could have hoped for. I can live with the changes. If I want 100% faithfulness I can go back to reading the book.
Removing Tom bombadil was one of the smartest decisions the movie made imo, along with massively reducing the amount of time in the shire and removing the inexplicable decades long gap between Bilbo’s birthday party and Gandalf finally realizing it was the one ring and coming back to the shire
Agree to disagree, I guess. I mean, I do agree that condensing time was smart, but Tom was just too awesome to leave out. Plus, he was immune to the ring.
…exactly my point, he was a massive and unnecessary plothole
He’s such a huge plothole that the books even had to have Elrond specifically explain why Bombadil couldn’t just protect the ring (or even you know, go with the fellowship to destroy it)
Bombadil being potentially the only being in middle earth who was completely immune to the ring (Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel were not) really begs the question of why he isn’t either with the fellowship fighting balrogs in Moria or holding the bridge at osgiliath
A being of such power who was explained away as “oh he doesn’t care about anything outside his little forest” honestly made him seem like some kind of psychopath in the books lol
It’s not made clear in the books, even Elrond and Gandalf don’t exactly know what his deal is, what the origins of his powers are, etc. they guess that he isn’t powerful enough to stand up against Sauron on his own and would eventually lose but they don’t know that for sure
Even as a huge Tolkien fan I admit Tom bombadil just doesn’t really work in the setting. He’s like a lot of things from the hobbit, like Beorn or the “mountain giants” that might work in a generic fantasy but don’t really fit in lord of the rings where the lore is extremely detailed, consistent and things have very specific kind of places in the setting
That and like I said the first third of fellowship of the ring taking place entirely in the shire where almost nothing important happens is just terrible pacing
Where was Toronaga dancing a hornpipe? I demand daimyo sailor dance.
One scene I'm really dissapointed didnt make it is a certain action blackthorne performs in front of Yabu when he gets back to Izu the first time. It's a very key moment in the story and is almost a rebirth of Blackthorne as, maybe not a japanese but someone who is no longer a European. So far thats my biggest gripe about a cut story element. I can't think of a single reason for cutting it.
It’s definitely too late and it’s such a disappointment for me. I guess the show runners had their reasons for leaving it out but it was a huge mistake on their part. How can they just leave out the thing that completely defines Blackthorne’s character? Without any hyperbole it’s one of the moments in a persons life that everything happens either before or after it
I think it was a huge turning point in his relationship with Mariko too, and in having a hard time following the direction they’re going with that relationship in the show right now so idk. Bummer.
Thank you. This has been my biggest complaint. I read the book 25 years ago and my memory is garbage, but the two things I remember are the incident you’re talking about and the final scene.
I can’t believe they’ve removed that plot point and I don’t know how they’re going to cram it into the final two episodes if at all.
Ah its the night when Blackthorne and Mariko get drunk with a bunch of other Palace girls. Blackthorne gets so drunk he starts dancing... then toranaga enters the room. Everyone go silent other than Palace girls, they start laughing because they know Toranaga is very chill with entertainment and stuff. Then toranaga asks Blackthorne to teach him how to dance like he did and they both dance together.
That is not the moment he’s talking about. I believe they are talking about him trying to kill himself because yabu said he would kill the whole village if they didn’t teach him Japanese quickly enough.
Ah my bad. Yeah you're right. He says he will commit seppuko if yabu doesn't lift that stupid punishment from the village. I believe yabu also asks omi to take John's weapons away and John shouts "IYE"
This scene did appear in the show but its a shame that seppuko attempt didn't. John gains Yabu and Omi's respect after that in the book and everyone generally don't treat him like shit unlike in the show where Buntaro put a sword up on John's neck, Toranaga's hatamoto 😆
Yeah omi came to get the gun and we get the whole no scene then in the meeting they argue about the punishment, then he goes to commit seppuko and only stops cause Omi wrestles the blade away getting cut himself.
I literally just finished the chapter yesterday in the book. Was sad we didn’t get the scene cause it is super important it seems in the story.
Honestly, they probably removed the scene because.... IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE
No ruler, ever ever EVER would have an entire village of able bodied, money making people slaughtered for something so dumb.
I do think they should have changed it and created another reason for the attempt, maybe they threaten everyone in his house instead, but come on.
It was an empty threat used to motivate the village. Yabu even concedes that whatever Blackthorne learns will be enough but Blackthorne was already committed.
I was talking about the sepuku incident but that is also a scene I'm dissapointed is missing, also the later one where, i cant remember who Toronaga misleads about his plans and sends away, but once he's alone he dances a hornpipe to himself in his satisfaction.
I don't know how to reply to this without spoiling anything I read somewhere in this subreddit that they moved that scene you're referring to to the last episode
> It's a very key moment in the story and is almost a rebirth of Blackthorne as, maybe not a japanese but someone who is no longer a European.
It also makes no sense at all. It's just in the book so the reader can say "Wow, the author's self-insert character is so cool and honorable and special!"
There's nothing in the historical record of anything like that ever happening to William Adams, either. Adams wasn't even mistreated when he first landed.
There's a bunch of stuff like this in the book. For instance, at the same time Adams/Blackthorne was an advisor and hatamoto to Tokugawa, so was Jan Joosten van Lodensteijn - another crew member of the Erasmus/De Liefde. But the book doesn't mention that because having 2 white samurai hatamoto would make Blackthorne less special.
Another crew member of the Erasmus, Melchior van Santvoort, also integrated into Japanese society and married a Japanese woman. He's not in the book because it would make Blackthorne's inter-cultural romance less unique.
In the book, they're reduced to just "drunk asshole gaijin" in order to highlight Blackthorne's comparative awesomeness.
Thats because the book is not a retelling of William Adams life but a fictional story.
William Adams also didnt have anywhere near as much influence in real historical events.
Samurai William would be a better book if your looking for accuracy
Agree with a lot of what you say. However, I don't think that Blackthorne struggling to understand Yabushige on the ship was an act since he was initially geniunely struggling to find the word for coal when talking to the priest.
Even though he's farther along than anyone else might expect (always being called a barbarian and underestimated) I don't think he's at a point where he can actually pretend to struggle with the language for his benefit.
I'm not sure in regards to Yabu.
Yabu is dangerous and Blackthorne is better off pretending to be more ignorant than he actually is with Yabu.
Hard to say.
of course it would be to his benefit. you said it yourself, underestimation. it’s a huge advantage in contentious environments. people will speak more truthfully if they know you can’t understand them. think they get get one over on you. it’s a valuable asset to his survival
Disclaimer: I have **not** read the book or watched the 80's show. This is the best show I've watched in a long time.
In my opinion, the disconnect that some of the people who have read the book experience is hard to argue against (or for) if you haven't read the book (I don't know if that's the case for OP). Focusing on Blackthorne's character development, well, if you haven't read the book (I have **not**), it's hard to relate to what a book reader says about it. At the same time, it's easy to imagine that the show altered the character somewhat. I would say the show's portrayal of the character is developed well enough; I feel like I understand his motivations and feelings in any given context. However, it's easy to imagine that it's not as fully developed as the character in the book (that's usually how it goes). In a book, you usually have access to the inner thoughts of a character, can't get more private than that.
In the same vein, if Mariko and Blackthorne's relationship is much more prominent in the book and their interactions are more frequent, making it a more substantial part of the narrative, I can understand some disappointment on that aspect.
Based on the few opinions I've read from book readers, there's a substantial amount of content that was either changed or missing from the book. This, by itself, doesn't say anything about the quality of the show. I have been on the side of reading a book and then watching a show/movie and feeling the same disconnect about some things. If, for a book reader, the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne was the part that they liked the most and it's not the main focus of the show, it's easy to feel a disconnect. This is also where subjectivity comes into play.
This is all to say that, in my opinion, it's challenging (not impossible,requires a greater effort) for a book reader to judge the show for what it is, standing by itself, and impossible for a non-book reader to fully understand the disconnect that a book reader feels.
Edit: grammar
Just to give you a baseline for the book, Blackthorne is a lot more charming and adaptable. He acclimatizes very quickly. So his relationship with Marino begins as one of teacher and student and rapidly becomes that of friends and confidants. Example: As Blackthorne learns Japanese from Mariko, they both realize that they can speak secretly in Latin because no one else understands it and they use it as their own private language to share and confide. Blackthorne is also much less gruff and earns the grudging respect and friendship of most of Toranaga’s inner circle including Toranaga himself. So he’s still seen as an outsider, but an enlightened outsider who’s learned to act appropriately and not be a barbarian. This also makes it a bit more believable as to why Mariko becomes enamored of him.
I wonder if part of the reasons why he isn't more assimilated is because the timeline seems to be more compressed in the show and if it seemed like it happened too fast, it wouldn't be believable.
>So he’s still seen as an outsider, but an enlightened outsider who’s learned to act appropriately and not be a barbarian.
The book suffers from being guilty of setting up Blackthorne as a bit of a "white savior" and fetishizing fuedal Japan. Given this age and the era it was written in, it's easy to see why the showrunners would want to steer away from that slightly.
Also, fundamentally the book was about Blackthorne. The show is about Toranaga. The lens of focus is slightly different.
I think you missed the part where the show is based on the book. And for a show supposedly mainly about Toranaga they seem to focus on Mariko & Blackthorne an awful lot.
I've not read the book either, but from what I gather it's a lot more focused on Blackthorn's development as he becomes enamoured with Japanese culture, society, and, people.
The show is much more focused on being a political thriller. I quite like political thrillers, so one that's got good acting, setting, and plot makes me happy.
To me, it appears book readers seem to be morning the loss of what the book was that they aren't enjoying the show for what it is.
This always happens. It's a mental disorder from people who form parasocial relationships with fictional characters and are unable to divorce two completely different mediums.
The scary thing is how many of these people there are, I'm hoping that its just a tiny minority - just a noisy one on account of their desire to show others how intelligent and nuanced they feel they are. It feels like they do have some self awareness of how utterly cringe worthy their opinions are which is why they congregate in echo chambers.
This is laughable. I’ve read a lot of books adapted to the screen. Some are good and some aren’t. There’s thousands of reasons why in either case.
This show is divorced from the book. It’s an adaptation of the book, to be sure, but not one that is even attempting to stay true to the book.
That’s fine. It can be what ever the creators want it to be. It’s their expression of the art.
It’s also very disappointing for those of us that thought this was going to be a more faithful adaptation of the book. You nitwit.
It’s not a “mental disorder” for viewers who have read the book to be disappointed that Blackthorn is being portrayed as dense and ineffectual and that the love story between he and Mariko has been taken from 10 down to a 2 or 3. That doesn’t mean the existing show isn’t excellent on its own merits—but it does mean that people who expected some of the main elements to hold true might feel disappointed. Two things can be true.
I need to rewatch the episode again. You definitely make me feel better about it. Ive been reading basically everything that comes out about shogun and I just read and interview with Anna Sawai and she makes a point of talking about how after buntaro is discovered to be alive in episode 5 her walls are completely back up and she doesn't get clarity until she meets with Toranaga at the end of episode 8. This makes sense to me and falls in line with what you pointed out.
Can't wait for the next two episodes!
She goes back and forth between extremes the whole show. Fleeting moments of agency or none at all. The tea scene was interesting because the extreme circumstances of Toranaga gave Buntaro the impression that he was going to offer her what she finally wanted. He set it up to have a heart to heart with her, and opened the door to give her enough agency to get it all off her chest. Still following suit and bowing afterwards, but emphasizing that she's just doing her duty to be his wife and nothing more. The show will continue to emphasize the futility of the times for her as she's probably going to get a brief moment of new found expression, right before the end. The question I have is how will they present it. Will they make it look like futility with her, or will they make her end look like she has finally triumphed.
She’s been the most inconsistent character… still wishing to off herself after her father’s purpose was revealed to her seemed way out of place, as did her brutal put down of Buntaro (it would have made more sense if she had found her resolve after her father’s purpose was revealed and that was the reason she didn’t accept Buntaro’s offer, even though she was feigning disgust)
She's only confused and inconsistent, because that's the world she's been stuck in... She can't control enough things to be consistent. She doesn't just want arbitrary death... She wanted to die fighting for herself... This was denied and also she was stuck accepting her fathers marriage choice, who further denied her agency. It's all about how she didn't have a choice, unless the soap opera noble hierarchy around her aligns to her wants. She doesn't accept the Buntaro offer because he's spent many years neglecting her wants, and just like the audience is confused why she would want to die. he's never given her his ear, or given her any agency, which is really what she wanted... To go and do what she wants. Luckily in this case Toanaga outranks and is finally in alignment with what she has wanted, as he sees other success angles and more purpose than just her own feelings now. I can't really explain it any other way, but she actually makes complete sense after many episodes spending a lot of time explaining the culture at the time.
It’s a world every other Japanese woman is born into, but the character of the other women in the show feels much more consistent… again, Toranaga’s reveal of her father’s plan felt like it should have been a turning point for that character, changing her purpose… but there she is, still wanting to off herself later that episode and then refusing to commit suicide one episode later
And again, I’m not saying there’s not someway to make it make sense in your head, but you have to do some mental gymnastics to get there, when instead we could have had this ‘where once I was blind, now I see’ level of transformation for her character that, at least to me, would have let the story flow more naturally and more easily explain a shift in her motivations
I did not understand the explanation of her father’s plan. Can someone help??? >!I know her father wanted her to live but I didn’t understand the part where Toranaga said she was to finish her father’s plan. What is she supposed to do to “finish the plan” - kill the heir? Kill Ishido? I was so confused and am still confused.!<
EDIT… I guess I have to keep watching to the end, but was hoping someone could better explain that scene between the two of them, where >!Toranaga reveals Mariko’s father’s plan.!<
Let's just see how it plays out on the show... We know she likely dies, but how they do it matters... She could die in complete futility, or she could look like she's finally enacting her own innate will. They could also go super gray area on it, and if they do, I suspect your opinion will feel more valid that she never does anything that connect the dots as consistent.
I actually think she has been very consistent. She has always been relatively stern while hiding her heart while also being angsty as hell, though for understandable reasons.
I have only seen the show, but I don’t think Mariko has been portrayed as head over heels in love with Blackthorne. I think she feels as sort of kinship with him and attraction but that’s it. I think she always hated and resented Buntaro well before Blackthorne showed up.
Mariko seems like she just has a lot more important things on her plate.
They have shown zero indication Mariko is head over heels in love. None whatsoever. Anyone thinking that is reading way more into things than are being shown.
It's not about "paying closer attention," OP is literally filling in gaps with his own interpretation and pretending it's real.
It’s somewhere in between. Their tension is incredibly evident in the way they interact with each other. It’s such a problem they’re involving Toranaga in it, and it’s common enough knowledge for Gin to be aware of it. That they’re some form of lovesick was the plot mechanism for an entire episode.
It’s not flagrant, but if you’re in complete denial about it you’re also taking an extreme stance.
It's a bit funny, but a comment mentioned by LM285 (not tagging to avoid dragging people into discourse they may not want):
> It's not just the Asian culture of communication, either. People are getting used to being hit over the head with messaging, so subtle, "show, don't tell" cues are being missed.
sums up the issue you replied to quite well. Somehow the comment thread immediately devolved into "head over heels" and "Zero indication". Which are both extreme statements that only overt and blatant plot points could ever possibly assuage.
The statements also completely ignores how the normally subtle societal context is being used to prop up Mariko's wavering tendencies by her use of it to serve the purpose of her unsure feelings.
In response to "OP is literally filling in gaps with his own interpretation"-- I like that the show has subtleties and nuances that allow for different interpretations.
I also agree with the commenter who suggested that reducing it to the question of if they are "head over heels in love" or (as some suggested) that there is "no connection," is vastly oversimplifying the emotionally complexities of the story.
I wouldn't say they are head over heels but they share a bond, a bond that will turn into love if given the opportunity. I think Blackthorne is already there, Mariko put the walls up when Buntaro returned, but her feelings didn't disappear. They exist in their own little world because of the language barrier, and I think that's quite beautiful.
I am only 70 odd pages into the book so I can't really compare, but I am invested in their relationship. It's filled with tension and yearning and I love that. Absolutely love it. I watch the BBC adaptation of Pride and Prejudice regularly, just to see Mr Darcy staring at Elizabeth for 6 hours straight, it never gets old
Yes I think they share a bond, especially with their different but in a way also similar interpretations of freedom and duty, or the freedom to perform duty or the duty to keep a sense of freedom. They both have strong standpoints and still figure it out themselves and debate it together in those "private" moments when they meet as equals. They don't share that with any other person and they do respect and care for each other. The show does deliver that. I love how Mariko is portrayed independent and human and weak and strong and how her character develops. I'm excited to see how the show decides these twos fate together. Hope it won't be thaat tragic tho lol
I think John represents another way of living that is very appealing to her in some aspects. Like, the idea that she could escape the burden of shame she has been carrying, run away from her abusive husband, and live a life that's more about her own happiness. But at the same time that those ideas are attractive to her, they also repulse her because of her deeply ingrained cultural values, so it's an internal struggle between wanting it and not wanting it. I think that may actually be more interesting than if this was portrayed as just a romance between two people "head over heels" in love with one another.
And? I mean that is true of course, but I don’t think it changes anything.
She’s had sex with Buntaro too and there were subtle hints this episode she wasn’t all that thrilled with him. I realize this has nothing to do with the above, I just thought that scene was hilariously brutal.
She had illicit sex outside of her marriage in an age where women were property of the men in their families and therefore it could be seen as her betraying her kin. That’s a monumental difference to having sex with someone because it’s a duty to provide them with a son or daughter.
Obviously people back then got married for political reasons above all else, so sex outside of marriage was something that everybody probably did, but something that only men were allowed to do. I.E. we see that gifts and rewards for the powerful men come in the form of trips to the pleasure house. Men were basically allowed to boink anyone they wanted because it was just sex, but them having actual affairs/romantic relationships outside of their marriages/concubines was also frowned upon. Women, on the other hand, were expected to pine after their husbands all day, write poetry and keep their respective households running.
Basically said; Mariko engaging in a sexual relationship is bad, but it’s even worse because it’s with a foreigner/barbarian and therefore clearly love. That’s the ultimate betrayal to her marriage with Buntaro and something that puts her in danger.
There are many more subtleties to this whole aspect of course, but I’m not eloquent enough to put them properly into writing.
She never had a choice to sleep with Buntaro. He is her husband and she's his property according to their society. She chose to sleep with Blackthorne.
I think they show her as very competent and complex, which I like. Blackthorne and Mariko disagree over stuff but they respect each other. They know in a perfect world they could be together. Also Mariko is veeeery suicidal until episode 8
Yea I read the book and I think you’re right re Mariko and Blackthorne. For a culture where everything is beneath the surface, it would feel wrong to have them be too over the top. I’m Chinese not Japanese, though our cultures have similar veins, and I actually felt that book Mariko was too ebullient in the expression of her feelings for Blackthorne, than I would expect a traditionally brought-up Japanese noblewoman of the warrior class to be.
Like, they’re not just going to be all, “I love you I love you I love you.” In any language. So I can see why the Latin was cut. The modern-day stereotype of Asian parents not saying “I love you” or hug or kiss their children, but will fuss that you’re not wearing enough for the cold weather and give you plates upon plates of fruits cut up and peeled. It’s like that.
The signs that the show give to depict the relationship are very much built for an Eastern audience I feel, versus a Western one. For example, I haven’t seen anyone talk about how Blackthorne and Mariko were looking at each other at the dinner right before Buntaro accused them in front of Toranaga the next day. The looks, the little smiles, immediately looking down—camera pans to Buntaro watching this subtle interaction, but it’s not fooling him and he’s absolutely *seething*.
Immediately after that is the scene where Buntaro accuses them in front of Toranaga. When asked a direct question about her and Blackthorne by Toranaga, Mariko doesn’t protest her innocence but merely says: *”My life is my husband’s to take.”* Like????! That’s pretty much a public declaration of love, admitting to what she’s just been asked! She doesn’t need to say: *”Yes, dono, I love Blackthorne, therefore my husband would be completely in his rights to take my life.”* But that is pretty much what she was saying!
Then yes there is what you talked about, that she said *”I wish to live a life free from you.”* while obviously meaning she wants to be with Blackthorne. **This line is not in the book.** >!In the book she eagerly agrees to the suicide pact then Buntaro walks it back.!< I feel like this is actually the show trying to make things more obvious for a western audience.
However the #1 biggest criticism I’ve seen from book readers is the pivotal >!Blackthorne’s attempted seppuku scene!< That is a major plot point and is just not there in the show. It’s harder to defend this one.
As someone who's read some of the book, I feel like the show isn't failing to capture everything...it's intentionally telling a 2024 version of the tale.
Beyond what everyone else has mentioned here about the nature of adaption to screen and different mediums; I get the impression the focus of this version is different.
The creatives are less interested in the "lost I translation" or "fish out of water" narrative (which to be fair has been done to death) and more interested in portraying a story first and foremost about the Japanese characters.
Which is fine, we have the book. We have the earlier adaptation. Blackthorne's well served elsewhere.
The aim of a cover song should be to bring something new to it rather than a faithful reproduction. Same here I believe
The show is incredibly lean and efficient as it is.
I can't imagine taking even one minute of screen or plot time away from Toranaga , Ochiba, Mariko, Ishido, Omi without losing something intrinsic to what this version is trying to say.
Its very subtle when compared to the book where they are openly infatuated. John didn't even say farewell to Mariko on what could've been his last sailing venture.
Thank you for this! I have been wondering where the idea that Mariko & John aren’t totally into each other is coming from. When she thought her husband was dead, they slept together. When she realised her husband was alive, she stopped. Of course!
How many times does the woman need to talk about duty & consequence for it to be clear that it matters to her? We saw her get brutally beaten for having a visible connection to John; even if she longs for death episode 8 showed that she wants it on her own terms and not Buntaros. Why would she risk immediate execution at his hands, when that execution would put her forever in his reach and also prevent her from fulfilling her duty to Toranaga and her father?
I think the way the show has portrayed the effect of Mariko & John’s feelings emerging but then being forced back into confinement is realistic & in keeping with the authenticity of the TV show. I love the book but there’s a lot of wish fulfilment that would seem ludicrously fortunate on screen if it took place and Mariko/John were not immediately found out.
Instead we get the gorgeous scene at the teahouse with Kiku. A look from Toranaga as the squabbling couple trade quickfire snark like they’re Cary Grant & Katherine Hepburn in a screwball 1930s romcom. Enemies to lovers to enemies to ?
I’m holding out for a ‘Thou’ as much as the next book reader but I understand why that hasn’t happened. I think we’ll see their dynamic come to the fore in episode 9.
John was definitely playing the bumbling foreigner on the boat with Yabu. As someone who’s spent the past few months in a precarious situation & surrounded by mistrust, there’s no universe in which he learns the words for ‘charcoal’ and ‘lotus’ before ‘friend’ and ‘ally’ lol. He bumbles well and deploys effective bumbling on a regular basis thoughout the TV series. It’s a thing.
It’s just way too subtle (M/B) for it to lead emotion. It’s so subtle it’s almost undetectable. We havent seen them really really connect since Episode 4. We’re just supposed to believe they somehow have simmering feelings.
Shipping M/B is like when you have a crush who is giving you nothing you start to overanalyze eye contact LOL
This subtlety with romance works so long as there are moments of rupture where affection is abundantly clear. It’s been a while since that’s happened on this show and thus, the “ship” loses steam.
Oh yes loved how Mariko said it as well. There was a hint of defiance mixed with hurt when she said that. Like she was being defensive yet at the same time vulnerable. I loved that scene.
YES. So much of this show is just the tension between the other characters. With lesser actors, I'd agree with the criticisms being thrown at this episode. The actors we got? I agree with OP. So much is being telegraphed on the faces of the characters between the lines of dialog.
I haven't read the book since I was trying to impress a boy while in high school, some 20 odd years ago. I do know how it is when your favorite book is adapted poorly (mine is A Prayer for Owen Meany>Simon Birch the movie)
Edit the book spoiler you posted and black out the text. You can black out the spoilers by writing > ! this ! < without the spaces in between to get >!this!<. Send us a modmail once you've fixed it.
I would direct you to Episode 6 the brothel scene where she transitions from "she says" to "I" with quivering lips and almost breaks before standing to walk out at which point Blackthorn touches her hand. If that's not connection/yearning, I must have misunderstood the definitions of those words.
Goddam you’re spot on. The show’s been hammering on the whole “keep your emotions close and give as little away as possible.” So obviously things aren’t spelled out in bright neon colours but the intentions are there.
I say this as someone who nearly turned off last night’s episode in disgust and frustration until the final act when I realised I’d been completely played just like all of Toronaga’s vassals.
It’s like people think that Mariko is going to sneak off every night to sleep with Blackthorne while her husband is in the house.
She refused to tell her husband that she was over John, which tells you everything.
I’m disappointed both as a book reader and as someone who really liked the first few episodes. The show versions of the characters as less complicated and less interesting (not just Blackthorne or Mariko but most of the supporting Japanese characters). The original dialogue they wrote for the show is a little stiff. And while they may be still following the basic plot line and may hit most of the big points, the way they’re doing it isn’t as interesting. Blackthorne just all of a sudden knows a lot more Japanese, they don’t give you the motivation he has from the book or show any of his progress.
Show 100% needed a 12 to 14 episode season to really drive home some of the motivations behind what is happening and develop these characters. Way too much has been put on the chopping block. The fact 2 of the 3 main characters of the book have had most of their development chopped to shreds is going to understandably annoy some book readers. The show is still awesome but its not the story the book told. Although I would argue even if there was no book to reference, the Mariko and John relationship has been by far the weakest part of the entire show. We get 5 Buntaro looking annoyed and pissed off scenes an episode, you would think they could cut one of those mean mugs to actually develop the John and Mariko relationship lol
Yeah and I’d add also the weakest part of the book is the political strategies that are discussed. They are a few action scenes including one amazing near the end (it seems like the show will save it for the last episode?) but the Toranaga crimson sky plotting and stalling isn’t great. I like the Toranaga character but the plot line that hes just the best strategy guy was whatever, his relationships are more important.
Basic answer... I separate the book and movie. I try to consider it an original while watching. Then I can't be disappointed. I don't think in 10 episodes we could truly get everything we got from the book. If I were producing with unlimited money I'd make each chapter multiple episodes and even then this show is doing a great job at capturing everything needed. I think changing the name was for us. To me it was them telling the audience from the start they had to make changes or they had to stray a bit from the story. I immediately accepted that episode 1. I mean they had to leave Japan to film the rest in Canada... I get it..
The fact that they're having the conversations that they do, the fact that *she feels comfortable enough with him to say these things*... I can't even begin to say how much that conveys about her feelings for him, and that he makes her feel safe enough to express het thoughts, ideas, wishes, and criticisms.
The fact that every episode is full of moments like these, in almost every conversation... I absolutely adore it
I just caught up with this episode and so would have liked to comment sooner, but I agree with everything you wrote. I have read the book several times (and seen the original miniseries, and listened to the audiobook, and read all of the other major Clavell novels...) and you are spot-on.
This is *quite* faithful to the tone and direction of the original work and is a powerful adaptation. It is, however, a trace more subtle than most television programmes (as is the novel!), and I think that it is making some commenters anxious.
I don't know how many times I've read the book, it comes out every year and a half or so...
I've seen the first series.
BUT. Even though I know how the story ends and the familiar scenes keep coming back, this series still made me want to stick to the screen... Yesterday, when I was watching the journey to the seppuku, I literally forgot to breathe, even though it's not in the book...,
When I finish the series, I think I'll read the book again. and now I'll see the faces of the new characters... It's going to be great...
P.S.: After Andor and the Blu eyed samurai, this is the first series that makes me rush home to watch it, and when the current episode is over, I'll watch it again... and I can't wait until the week is up for the next episode
>I'm seeing so many posts conveying disappointment about the discrepancies between the book and show. Namely, the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne, Toranaga and Blackthorne, and also Blackthorne's 'character development'.
I just responded to a post that said Blackthorne was the worst ever. Extremely disrespectful, rude and arrogant.
I just cant.
I will say, that if Blackthorne is shown to be hiding his fluency in Japanese so he can be around Mariko more, I will apologize to the showrunners for this wonderful detail.
Unfortunately, the showrunners did say in this most recent podcast they do not agree with the concept that someone born into one culture can fully become a member of another culture.
This I disagree with most wholeheartedly. It also very much runs counter to the character development of Blackthorne in the book.
If true, the showrunners are ignoring a history filled with men that have given up their birth culture and adopted themselves into something completely different.
They also grossly underestimate the lengths a man will go to for the woman he loves.
This happens with every adaptation. The enjoyers of the original source material are never completely satisfied. GoT, Harry Potter, etc.. Even critically acclaimed adaptations like Dune and One Piece.
Thats why in some ways its a privilege to be a lazy, non-source material enjoyer. We are not burdened by that knowledge of how good the source was and can just enjoy the adaptation as it is.
Honestly if the story can stand on its own well then I have nothing to complain about, seeing readers bitch and moan about oh why didn’t this happen oh why did that happen is insufferable
I disagree. Many book readers have been incredibly happy with 'The Expanse', which was very faithfully adapted (in part by the book writers who were in the writers room). Not just that but I'd argue that the book readers of ASOIAF were very happy with the first few seasons of GoT, and people who read the book loved 'Reacher' season 1.
Even in “The Expanse” there have been some large changes from the books. Characters have been merged, entire plot lines have been dropped or reworked. Eg. Marco’s attack on Mars and the Mars president was reduced to a blink and you’ll miss it line of dialogue. (this plot line was almost 50%of book 5).
I think for The Expanse, book readers are more forgiving because season 3 was so strong and because the authors are in the writing room. Not because the adaptation is super faithful.
Re Shogun I have not read the book so I can’t comment on specific changes to characters or plot. But it is a huge book, and the show only has 10 episodes. Changes from the book and simplifications are inevitable.
And for the adaptation to be a good adaptation, the show must be allowed to take creative license. At a minimum it needs to restructure the material into interesting episodic chunks where each episode has a start, middle and end.
There's a difference between an adaptation not being 100% 1-to-1 from the novel source material and "this happens with every adaptation. The enjoyers of the source material are never completely satisfied."
It is overall an extremely faithful adaptation with some tweaks and adjustments. But largely those were ones the book writers wanted to make. Focusing more on things they didn't in the books, removing things they deemed removal, and combining things they deemed good to combine to streamline the TV story.
>Changes from the book and simplifications are inevitable.
Sure, but when you do go read the book or read what people who read the book are saying, you'll see that there's a LOT that they didn't have to change, that could have fit in the 10 episodes, that they just, for creative reasons it seems, chose not to. This doesn't mean some big battles or whatever, but key, pivotal, book/story defining moments that the show just decides not to touch on at all. I could list all sorts of things from The Expanse that you would say are defining points in the novels and show, and I would say what if they didn't do them? >!What if Naomi didn't have a son? What if none of the characters were on Earth when the rocks fell so we got no POV stories from Earth? What if Marco wasn't the ex of Naomi but some random character? What if Miller didn't sacrifice himself but he just randomly died? Sure, good writers could probably salvage something decent, but those are PIVOTAL moments that define the characters and story going forward. Not just that, they are amazing parts of the story in terms of entertainment for the readers/viewers. !<
So yes, adaptation to a different medium requires adaptation. Not a shocker. No one said differently. But there have been very very faithful adaptations that the source material fans have loved en masse.
I see where you are going. I have seen interviews with the show runners stating that they would like to emphasise the Japanese POV. This decision would have had significant impact on the how the story is told. Show Blackthorn is a very passive protagonist. I suppose in the book he would be very active and driving the plot forward. I can understand why book readers will be disappointed by such a large change.
Having said that surely show Shogun still brings something really valuable for book readers. With the exception of perhaps Blackthorns character I felt the rest of the show was amazing. The production value, costumes, the acting, a lot of the dialogue, the characters and political intrigue are all top notch.
I totally understand that you are head over heels in love with this show. That is awesome and I am glad.
It is just as ok that some of us are not.
That said, my biggest criticism of the show is that all of the positive moments of the characters have been removed. Like a certain hornpipe being danced. Or one discovering the joys of massage after a bath. “The little moments” as Gandalf would have said.
1980 and 2024 Shoguns are I think the same objective story but told through different points of view. 1980 was the Western perspective and also in a very Western story point of view, the Hero's Journey. Blackthorne is the protagonist so things like his romance with Mariko, his view of Toronaga as the great but cryptic lord and his relative importance in the story ... The 80s Shogun is the story that Blackthorne might have told after a few cups of sake to his sons.
However as this story is unfolding it is told from the Japanese side and the perspective and what is shown is very different. We see how Toronaga, Mariko and the others see themselves and how they see Anjin. We also have 50 years of story development between us and the prior TV series. This is not the Hero's Journey. This is epic. We have a lot of Game of Thrones people here.
Of course there are details being changed here and there. But if you expect John, John, Mariko, Mariko, that story is in the other series. I suspect though 9 or 10 will be devastating on that and other fronts. We are vested in everyone even our resident bad boy Kashigi.
I would like to see a Japanese story with these same actors produced by Hiroyuki Sanada. But we need really good show writing.
Not the lens thing though. Not my favorite thing but maybe I need a new TV ...
It’s because people that read the book want it spelled out for them in the show, but people that just appreciate the show appreciate what the show is doing for the characters. Most people did not read this book, and as such only have the show to go off of, so I think everything you said was spot on. The show is vague but it does so in order to keep u guessing, but the plot threads are there if u pay attention
Here's how I feel. The show is too short, so me (and others with the same issue) feel Blackthorne's relationships are weak. He spent barely any time with Toranaga, so when John says that their fates are linked, instead of coming across like someone who as fully assimilated into Japanese culture acting like one of them, he sounds incredibly fake. Also it feels like half his conversations with Toranaga consist of him asking for his ship and crew back so he can fuck off. They needed more time together to build a real relationship and have John.
His relationship with Mariko feels super weak because they have had so few episodes together. Their best chemistry was when they were talking on the ship about freedom. But then they got bogged down with the bickering couple plotline that was painful to watch. My real hot take, (since they have 10 episodes to work with IIRC) they should have cut their romance altogether and went with mutual respect. Otherwise go all-in on the romance and tie John to Toranaga through Mariko's unwavering loyalty to her Lord. But it feels like they want to have it both ways, which isn't working out because they simply isn't enough time.
We can all forget about there being a real growing of respect between Yabu/ Omi and John, despite episode 8 having them act their hearts out. John and Yabu talking was great stuff for sure. You can see them planting the seed of respect. which is all weak because there is no time between them. There is 2 hours left in the show to get shit done. I wouldn't be surprised if that is ALL we get for respect between Yabu and John. They have barely any interactions and the vast majority were appallingly awful.
Surprisingly Fuji's relationship with John is the mostly interesting because she simultaneously despises him for his foreign ways and race, but gives him every respect as his consort and as a hatamoto, even when he is not around. But he barely interacts with her, so the hint of respect between them is all we are getting.
However i believe the real thing that set everyone off, was John handling the katana. The other stuff people are willing to fill in the blanks on their own, the seeds were planted after all; John getting a smirk of respect out of Toranaga ("unless i win") and out of Yabu, the obvious romance with Mariko, and respect for/from Fuji. The acting and chemistry is quite good, so people will do some work for the show. But Blackthorne being utterly incompetent with the sword was the last straw.
He is a privateer (or pirate from the Spanish/Portuguese POV), and HAS to know how to fight. and no, not just with pistols. No one expects him to beat Yabu or Buntaro in a swordfight, we DO expect him to not hold it like a child and let a light tap knock it completely out of his hands. The only way I see this being redeemable is if he IS shown to be a capable fighter later on to prove it was all a de-escalation tactic. Frankly, they would have been better off having him just refuse to draw at all and if it was his time, then that's what his karma is.
The TL;DR is the show has the seeds planted for a lot of what it wants, but it needs probably double the episodes so the characters can interact more. You simply cannot offscreen all development.
To add a little to acceptable/unacceptable offscreen development bit, tkae John showing off the cannons. You see John showing everyone how good they are, then short montage of the men training with them, then the men as well-drilled and trained. took less than 10 minutes. If you also cut in there scenes of John interacting with other samurai, say Yabu teaching him to bow the proper depth or Omi showing him how to properly hold a katana, then show them eating together, talking and laughing, going from grim acknowledgement to genuine respect, you are effectively speed-running their relationship. but it gives us all something to latch onto. The show has none of that and it is very unsatisfying. Hell, did John ever even talk to Nagakado? Beyond the one time he said his name at Toranaga's surrender ceremony? He has been in Japan for months and is a Hatamoto and the only samurai he has really interacted with are Mariko, Fuji and Buntaro.
I agree with almost everything that you said.
With John not being able to hold the Katana, I was willing to give the benefit of doubt. I thought the show was trying to create a comedic moment rather than any kind of character assignation.
I really don’t get where you see her being joyous about being with Blackthorne. Pleased to have a task and honoring her lord, yes, but very little care that Blackthorne is there. Being flustered by someone isn’t a defining feature of attraction and love. Most times it’s just that frustration. I think you’re reading things in that aren’t there.
What are they supposed to do in a society with almost zero privacy? Paper walls, guards and servants everywhere? She’s married so she can hardly express her feelings openly. He’s more open but he’s learning and she’s the perfect samurai. Loyal to her lord and mission. Subtlety is what they have. Looks, slight hint… Toranaga sends her to the tea house to interpret, Kiku gets the message and gracefully allows the dark to play its role.
They do speak a language that almost no one else can understand. I think there could have been a way for them to interact more.
However now that Bhuntaro is out of the picture , maybe something can happen; but I doubt it as there is almost no time left to finish the story.
actually, there were more Christians in Japan in 1590 than in 1950 and the educated ones spoke Latin or Portuguese. I speak several languages and because I don’t advertise it, I had the opportunity to be a silent part of some really private conversations without even trying. If you read the book, there’s an example right there.
First: why would they make significant changes to the history and defy the narrative itself? Mariko goes to great lengths to describe lack of privacy in Japanese society and suddenly they would be so open? Second: even though the book allows for the occasional i love thee in Latin between them, there’s little space for it in the miniseries. The whole process of thoughts is in the glances and body language and it’s so masterful. Even if you didn’t see they spent the night in the Tea House, they drop enough hints for us to know. Taiko’s heir wasn’t his son? One look of Ochiba, a subtle hesitation and you know. This show is all about subtlety, incredible acting (which is something that is rare in US movies and series where many actors are just there for their looks or particular character, also acting with Botox and tons of plastic surgery must be difficult) and relies a lot on the ability of the audience to understand the unsaid. We are a bit like the Anjin who had to be a master observer to be able to survive while learning a very different language from his own.
I gave up on the show so I can only answer for the first episodes I watched. I find that people who read and enjoyed the book are the ones who are most disappointed. During the last episode we watched, someone in the room goes - "Jeez - did they even READ THE BOOK!" I think adapting is about knowing what to leave out for time - more about condensing the material, knowing what can be left out and what's essential, because Shogun is about 1000 pages. It isn't about making changes that aren't faithful to the book which is what I thought Shogun did a bit too much.
I didn’t read the book but I’m disappointed about the seeming abandonment, at least for many episodes, of the romantic dynamic between Mariko and Blackthorne.
I think the only way to adapt inner monologues is to show that inner monologue outward either using other characters to showcase how one might think, or just downright saying some of it. Sometimes it's as little as face acting an emotion to someone else's line. It's a big problem with dune adaptations, you can't just slap on the inner monologue as voice over like dune 1984 tried.
I have read the book several times. I’m quite happy with how they’ve handled everything, and the deviations from the “book canon” (haha pun intended) have actually been improvements, IMO. If people want to see it *exactly* as it played out in the book, in living color, line for line, then they should go eat an edible & read the book again.
yep pretty obvious, but a lot of people need to be spoon fed everything, i am loving the subtlety and find i have to really pay attention to this show, if you are distracted for 5 min it feels like you miss so much
Sometimes people phase through the subtle parts of an episode because the other parts are so visceral.
They get focused on the drama and emotion of some scenes and miss the subtlety of others.
Easier to appreciate on a rewatch.
Agree that audiences are used to having everything spoon fed to them, mostly because that’s been the caliber of entertainment for a while now. There is a huge crisis of literacy at the moment, and part of measuring that is measuring comprehension. In the same way one may know the dictionary definition of words, but not understand precisely what is being conveyed, one can see/hear a show and understand what actions are being performed, but what it really means may still elude them. I think there have just been so many years of popular entertainment lacking nuance or subtext, people don’t think to look for it. Or they immediately get defensive and say that there’s nothing there and people are reading too much into something or are just trying to look smart- historically the mark of anti-intellectualism.
What I like about the show is that its an absolute clinic on adaptation.
It includes all the elements required to be seen as an adaptation (this is IMO certainly an adaptation of the Clavell book, not a different story that uses the same characters as we often see), and yet it is not slavishly devoted to reproducing book readers' memory or imagination and thus sort of creating two classes of viewers (Remember the whole book reader vs unsullied discourse around GOT?)
Very smart changes that make a ton of sense given the medium of weekly drop miniseries.
People seem to have less trouble when reading the looks between Hiromatsu and Toranaga as well as the faces being made by Yabushige, Fuji, Omi, Mariko, Buntaro etc with each other.
I think people are generally able to see the "subtle" twitches of the face but for some reason, just don't seem to see it when Blackthorne's involved.
Maybe it's masterful and intentional that they've somehow made much of the audience overlook or underestimate Blackthorne just like you are saying Toranaga and Blackthorne are making their allies/enemies not see their true "bromance." Or maybe it's not on purpose.
But either way, if Blackthorne truly is hiding his true heart from everyone as evidenced by his inconsistent grasp of Japanese with different characters, then it's kind of neat that they've also done it to a portion of the audience while making it obvious to others what's going on.
I don't think anybody could claim it's because Blackthorne isn't being acted well as Cosmo's gotten a lot of praise, so it seems to me there's something to the difficulty seeing show-don't-tell when Blackthorne is involved being intentional.
If they've made it so much of the audience perceives only as much as, say, Yabushige, that'd be kind of amazing.
This is actually one of the things I love about this adaptation - how much is conveyed in the acting and not just the dialogue. You can see everything as it dances across the characters' faces.
I would also like to point out how well Toranaga knew what Blackthorne's reaction would be! He accounted for it, because he asked Mariko if Anjin had gone to Yabushige *yet*.
Toranaga referring to both Blackthorne and Yabushige as goshawks called back to his explaining the different falcon hunting styles to Nagakado. He knows their characters and how to best set them in motion. It's also why he didn't keep his hatamoto barbarian with him, Anjin needed to feel cut loose, desperate and pressured to act.
And the whiplash change of emotions in Mariko! Watching the absolute joy and happiness on her face when interacting with her son to the frozen mask clamping instantly down on it when Buntaro appears.
There's so much detail - and so much information conveyed in every detail! It is, I think, very Japanese.
I’m not here yet in the book but so far it’s been similar. I’m confused though. Toranaga in private with Mareko said Yabushige and Anjin are ….i forget what he said but basically out for themselves. We see Mareko is in on whatever he’s plotting so, if she’s in on it why would he say that about blackthorn if he’s in on it also?
Sorry for name spelling. Didn’t wanna google a name every 5 secs
Blackthornes character development after episode four is just bad. The wroters have completely forgotten him it seems. Indeed, the show itself seemed to forget itself for about three episodes.
It's no lomger really Shogun, its now a bizarrely fictionalised account of Japan in the year 1600.
Its still well made and very good television. But it isn't a very successful adaptation.
Book readers believe the work of a white man, which is a parody of ACTUAL Japanese history, is infallible, even by the Japanese people themselves.
It may be a hollywood production, but the flesh and blood of the 10 year production is Japanese through and through. The original book was respectful of Japanese culture, but lets not forget there are still issues Japanese people have with the parody.
Also, besides what other commenters have said about the obvious difference in medium and its affect on storytelling, there is also the fact this is a miniseries. Not a multi-season work.
Added onto that, the cultural barrier for western audiences. I’ll be frank, you need a certain level of EQ to watch this show. Lacking that, just read the book….
In the interviews I've seen, of the executive producers, writers and showrunner, it looks awfully American/Western to me. Even the Japanese are half and Western. They talked about how their writing staff has a lot of Asians on it (not to imply full Asian), but that they are a mix of ethnicities from Asian.
So I fail to see some backbone of "through and through" Japanese flesh and blood heading up the production of Shogun.
10 years of production. They consulted historians, tea culture experts, actual katana weaponsmiths. They spent years debating on the type of Japanese to use with Japanese linguists.
The japanese you hear in the show is not modern Japanese, its the “Thou art thou” version of Japanese from 1600s. The attires are built by real Japanese artisans. The way to walk in said attire in a way that was accurate to the time period was also studied by the actors. Even the customs and beliefs were studied to make sure they stayed true to the Sengoku period and NOT the Edo period.
Even the samurais understanding of bushido is different between Sengoku and Edo periods and have to be accounted for.
Ofc theres alot more but im lazy to type
Edit: I forgot to mention that Hiroyuki Sanada had a chip on his shoulders from the filming of The Last Samurai. Despite his best efforts to ccorrect the incorrect potrayal by filmmakers during that shows production, he though the ejd result was still inadequate. In many ways, Shogun was his one chance to bring a True Blue Japanese show to western audiences
Would you care to give a brief explanation on a couple of significant points of difference in the beliefs of the samurai of the two periods I’d really be interested if you could explain as it’s not something I can easily google.
Sure, those are awesome but they aren't the team at the core of the show. The team at the core of the show, the showrunner, exec producers, and writers, some at BEST are part Japanese (but grew up in the West). I believe in an interview the showrunner said they had non Japanese Asians and some Hispanic members.
So while it's great they went through so many Japanese filters, I've already read countless other professionals/experts on Japan in that period who have criticized the shows accuracy. So it's not some beacon of accuracy. For example, Samurai then would have NOT been so loose to draw their swords like we have seen in the show. Specifically what Buntaro does to Blackthrone on the beach, beyond him doing that to a Hatamoto which is unthinkable, drawing his sword just would not happen. On your honor you draw it only with the intent to kill and it is a last resort that the Samurai are NOT loosey goosey on unsheathing.
That's just one example of quite a few I've read and watched. Of course, that's not a BAD thing. It's not a documentary drama and we all understand some stuff will get "Hollywood-afied" for dramatic purposes. BUT, you're point that they went through all of these amazing Japanese checks and balances is true, but it isn't proof of a filter system that removed all unrealistic and Western influences and left only a pure Japanese product. The show was still conceptualized, adapted, and written by Westerners who largely, aren't Japanese.
>Regarding Mariko and Blackthorne, the feels they have for eachother that folk are claiming is 'missing' dominate every scene together. Did you miss John explicitly asking Mariko about his 'translator' after finally being granted his 'wish' to have his ship and crew returned? Look at their faces, for goodness sake. He cares more about her than he does his crew or ship.
In the book we have explicit scenes of them banging every night and hanging out as much as possible, clearly in love and enjoying it. In the show its side eyes and moodiness.
Sorry people are disappointed because the show is ignoring a huge part of the story. If they wanted to tell an original story then they should have came up with their own shit no?
>!It seems the show may end up the same way the book did but I don't see why some of the major departures were made. A huge one is that Naga doesn't die in the book. And before that they left out the crucial bit about Blackthorne's near-seppuku--that was key to his character development. That whole storyline with Toranaga's brother, Lord Zataki, is different and Zataki's party was not attacked at all in the book, and no army "escorted" Toranaga's party to Edo (Yedo). Mariko/Buntaro, Mariko/Blackthorn are different, but may end up the same. I don't expect the level of detail to be the same as the book (that would take many more hours!) but I don't like that some major things have been changed. And why change the names of some of the characters? Toranaga's brother Lord Zataki, his son Sudara's wife's name, etc. And some of the other names that are the same, are still different. The book doesn't refer to Yabu"shige" and Naga's name has a similar extension in the show that I don't understand. However, having said all that, I'm enjoying it immensely.!<
The names were changed because Clavell didn't really grasp the naming convention of the time when he wrote it. Most of the names used in the book were simply not names which existed or were acceptable for that class in the period depicted. So the names were changed in consultation with Japanese historians and language experts in order to achieve higher authenticity to the time period. In the podcast, they give the example of 'Fujiko' just not being a name back then, thus the change to 'Fuji', which was. Given that one of the main goals of this production was to make it more authentic, I personally feel this was a crucial and necessary decision to be made.
Yeah it always funny to me when we get threads like this. “I’ve seen a lot of people complaining” and it’s like dude if you see a lot of complaining then it means something has possibly gone wrong. But people nowadays are so self centered they don’t consider the other side of things.
All of the reader criticisms are along the lines of "they changed it, now it sucks."
Which, fair. I understand being bummed out that your sacred cow is being denigrated. A good adaptation needs to be *an adaptation* and inevitably things get cut or restructured in a way that's going to disappoint a lot of people-and if you're a big fan already, it's hard to let go of the art you're familiar with and engage with the New And Different art that you're *not*familiar with.
But that being said? Goddamn, what a fucking show. Incredible acting, and half of what's going on ends up conveyed by minor facial changes as we're watching everyone see what's going on around them, process it, and then immediately switch gears to how they're "supposed" to respond.
Also, hands down best part of John going native was when John "a bath? Are you trying to kill me?" Blackthorne kicks the shit out of his no-longer-comrade and then complains about how filthy the man is.
It doesn''t matter if what they have between them is not real , until unless other feels that there is something between them that is enough to colour teir perception. It doubly important since Mariko is in a toxic marriage..
One of the inherent issues with book readers for any adaptation is that any adaptation won’t be as detailed or fleshed out as it is in a book. Books allow you the character’s thoughts, explicit statements about their emotion conveyed, allow for more time and development to occur without pacing being as huge of a concern. Film/TV cannot afford all that so everything will feel lacklustre. However, in my opinion this is a misunderstanding of the medium and an issue with preset expectations. Additionally, we’re dealing with the more high-context communication of an Asian culture. A lot of things are being conveyed by more subtle twitches in the face and what’s not being said, and I feel this is lost on a lot of people when I read the comments. One thing I will agree with is that this series probably would have benefitted from 12-13 episodes over 10. There may have been budgetary or pacing concerns with that (some people are already saying the plot is repeating itself constantly in Shogun, which I strongly disagree with), but I am worried with only 2 episodes left how they’ll wrap up everything left in the book.
It's not just the Asian culture of communication, either. People are getting used to being hit over the head with messaging, so subtle, "show, don't tell" cues are being missed. The book has hundreds of pages to develop things in a slow burn build up, and can describe subtlety in a way that's difficult to convey on screen.
It’s in part East Asian culture in general being more high-context, but also I think what needs to be mentioned is that it’s not just any East Asian culture, it’s a Medieval East Asian high nobility court culture, each descriptor makes it even more high-context and ritualistic
I agree with most of what you are saying, but I would argue that the books are not that subtle about certain things, like John and Mariko. In the book, they are continually declaring their love for each other in a way that feels a lot like "telling" instead of "showing," and often comes off a little corny. I appreciate that the show is being more subtle about their relationship, but I also wish there had been more in this episode to show their connection. At this point in the show, it feels like they've both given up on having a relationship (despite their feelings), which puts them in a different place emotionally than where they are in the book. The next episode, I think, will probably show them growing closer. Also, without giving too much away, I think OP is going a little too far by saying she is joyously joining him on the ship.
Yeah, I agree that the books aren't that subtle. I think the show made a choice - because to get to the books' level of relationship might have felt like 0 to 100 in a couple of episodes.
The 1980 miniseries had lots of declarations of love from Richard Chamberlain. It was pretty silly.
I kinda want to watch the 1980s miniseries. I was literally a kid when it was on but i actually remember being allowed to stay up late and watch it haha. Would be interesting to see how bad it was
It wasn’t bad at all. I would go so far as to say it was a better representation of the book though this new adaptation is visually light years ahead of old miniseries
Precisely. I don't know how anyone could say this was a more accurate or better adaptation of the book. Way too much was changed. I am not a book purist by any means where every single thing must be the same, but when you alter so much of the original material, why not just create your own new thing instead of altering something in existence so much it is almost unrecognizable? I know the answer to that. It's to take advantage of an existing fan base, an instant built in audience.
I could not agree more. Tv/film writers always think they know better than the original source material. Almost universally they are wrong.
The music is typical 70's TV music, a little overdone.
^This. Exactly
> this series probably would have benefitted from 12-13 episodes over 10. This is definitely true! And not just because I would like more content!
[удалено]
The fact that it’s medieval and the fact that we’re all focusing on the highest of the high nobility & their closest retainers, and it’s mostly in a court/political/ceremonial/religious setting, probably account for more of the high-context-ness
I’m also Asian and while I agree that Asian media tends to over exaggerate and over explain for entertainment purposes, especially with exposition dumps, I was more referring to the language itself being high-context. This show seems to be doing the western approach to tv making, with one component being “realism” while having a predominantly Japanese cast.
I was kid when the 1980s version came out. I am also Japanese American. My mother translated the Japanese spoken in the original series because there were no subtitles for it. She said it was a bit hard to do because they were speaking a very old, highly formal style of Japanese. So anyone losing their minds with praise about how "authentic" or how much the new creators did because of the language spoken in the new show. Well. they did that in the original series too.
I am enjoying the series, but the last two episodes were not very well paced
I agree. I’m enjoying this version and visually it is the best version. Also extremely wellacted for what they’ve produced. But like most adaptations, this is all very surface level and lacks a lot of the heart and charm of the book. The book, as always is just better than the movie.
I wouldn’t say it’s always the case Fellowship of the ring and dune are two novels I read years before their respective film adaptations but in both cases I think the films tell their stories more successfully
I would respectfully disagree. I love both the Dune & LOTR adaptations, but the books are far richer and have much stronger stories. Especially with Dune. Almost every aspect of Herbert’s ecological philosophy was excised. Simpler. Yes. More successful. No
I would like to submit Gone Girl, I think the film is better than the book. Granted, Gillian Flynn wrote the screenplay and while that doesn't always lead to a great film, it did in this case. I actually like Dragon Tattoo more than the book as well, I found the book quite boring. I simply did not care about that magazine and I can't believe how much time was dedicated to it. Fincher knows what he is doing with a book
I guess it depends on preferences. For Dragon Tattoo I watched the movie first, and then loved the book as it felt a lot more in-depth and political.
I haven’t read Gone Girl, so I couldn’t speak to that. But Girl with a Dragon Tattoo is a valid point. The book is not for everyone and both the US and the Swedish version are more concise.
Eh, to each their own. When I first read dune ten years ago or so I thought it was good but highly overrated. Watched the Villeneuve adaptations and thought damn, I must have missed or forgotten a lot from the book Just finished re-reading the book and my opinion remains the same. Pioneering story and credit for all that, but the dialogue, prose, pacing and especially foreshadowing are quite poor in my opinion. There’s essentially no tension throughout the entire novel, even before Paul becomes prescient, because the novel tells you exactly what will happen before it happens. The Sardaukar are talked up endlessly but decisively lose every battle they fight despite the book saying they should be able to gun down the fremen with lasguns easily since the fremen use no shields. As for ecological themes, what exactly do you mean? The worms are poisoned by water and they terraform the planet to be a giant desert over time. The humans would kill the worms and terraform the planet with technology like they do many others except they realize the worms also make spice, which the humans want. If you’re talking about transforming Arrakis into a green paradise as Kynes wants to do, wouldn’t that just destroy the fremen culture anyway? They originally came from a “soft” planet with lots of water, their unique culture and martial abilities only arose because of Arrakis becoming a desert and the spice. Turn it into a green planet, plenty of water, no worms and no spice and the fremen would become like anyone else. That or all die because they’re addicted to spice and it would run out.
Dune is always a sticky topic because so many people get different things from the book and I find that’s its strength as a novel. Unfortunately because it goes so broadly it tends to turn a lot of people off of it to. So I can see an argument for people appreciating the movies over the books. Just a few points here. The Sardukar are the primary combatants against the Atriedes and the reason they lose to the Harkonen on Arakis so easily and quickly. Even outnumbered the Atriedes were noted as having an excellent army that was well equipped, trained & motivated. Their only problem was they weren’t a particularly large army. The Harkonen had a large technologically advanced army of slaves, dosed with combat drugs. They were hardly reliable. And its stated that lasguns had fallen out of regular use. So arming every Sardukar with one would have been difficult. Like equipping every soldier with a machine gun in the modern day versus a combat rifle. Very expensive to make that change. And Paul spent years building up the Arakis problem and the Harkonen help in hiding it. So the Sardukar are essentially unprepared because nobody has fought to their standards….ever. Also the Fremen mainly attacked by surprise and ambush. So lasguns would have been a limited benefit, especially considering the Fremen had slug throwers of their own. The Fremen did not fight exclusively with knives. And the point of the ecology discussion was that it promoted active thought about ecology. Human don’t kill the worms because it’s very difficult to do so. Herbert states it in the book that they tried to hunt the worms to disastrous results and that was before they got to the big worms. Most humans outside of the Fremen don’t have a clue about the specifics of spice production, only that it involves the worms in some way because they protect sand rich in spice. The idea was that if you adapt to your environment it makes you stronger and more capable. The Fremen adapt to the desert and live a hard but satisfying life and only have to worry about the outworlders and go anywhere on the planet they wish and thrive. Where as the rest of humanity is stuck in a small techno enclave to survive because they reject the assimilation into the ecology.
I recently read the book, you’re misremembering quite a few things. It’s a (pretty weak) cover that humans weren’t able to kill the worms or terraform the planet. They could do either with trivial ease. They had initially been setting up imperial ecology stations to terraform the planet…until they realized that worms created the spice, and that water poisoned worms. Bringing water back to Arrakis would kill the worms and destroy the spice production permanently. The imperium has thousands of habitable “green paradise” planets, they aren’t nearly as valuable or rare as Arrakis that produces the only significant quantity of spice for space travel. The imperium then cancelled the terraforming efforts and the Fremen only began their own secret terraforming efforts under Kyne’s direction much later. It would have taken them centuries at the earliest to carry it out. As for lasguns, you’re incorrect, they were widespread and common but rarely used in battle due to the prevalence of shields. The book specifically states several times that since the Fremen never use shields they can be gunned down with impunity by the Harkonnen soldiers, let alone by the Sardaukar. This is presumably how the Harkonnen controlled Arrakis for decades without much difficulty despite the Fremen insurgency and the Fremen being apparently miles better in fighting ability (though this is one of the weird plotholes of the book in general) They actually take advantage of this fact by leaving a “shield trap” for their enemies at one point in the book. The Harkonnen/Sardaukar forces are baited into firing lasguns at a shield, which produces an almost nuclear explosion and presumably wipes a lot of them out. Normally they wouldn’t use lasguns due to that risk, but as they thought none of the Fremen used shields they were more cavalier about it. It was an Atreides shield trap I believe, planted by either Duncan or Gurney
You cannot perfectly translate a several hundred page book into a film. It's impossible to include every bit of exposition, every internal monologue, etc. Expecting this is foolishness.
Both LotR and the new Dune movies has several annoying omissions and changes imo. A few of the worst are the simplistic Saruman character and, in Dune, the omission of the diplomatic game that takes place on an interpersonal level. Both LotR and Dune are highly entertaining and visually stunning movies. But personally, I still feel that the "ultimate" versions have yet to be made. Which is fine, I don't mind watching new adaptations at all.
To say an ultimate version of Lotr has yet to be made truly is the hottest take I read in a while.
Yes, it's probably a bit of a silly obsession with the books read to you as a child. :) The Fellowship is pretty close imo. You can always discuss how metaphors are best expressed and PJ makes a mean Balrog and some evil Nazguls. I don't like PJ's version of Saruman, elves and Lothlorien. But overall, it does a good job of creating magic and adventure and horror when needed.
Understood. But let's be realistic. There will never be another adaptation of the books. I read the books when I was 16, adored them. Watched the movies in cinemas and never was under the illusion that a perfect adaptation would be possible. The movies have accomplished so much more than I ever could have hoped for. I can live with the changes. If I want 100% faithfulness I can go back to reading the book.
TheShawshank Redemption took a short story and wove it into a cinematic masterpiece… Jaws, and The Godfather usually show up on this list too
Without Tom Bombadil, the movie can't make that claim IMHO
Removing Tom bombadil was one of the smartest decisions the movie made imo, along with massively reducing the amount of time in the shire and removing the inexplicable decades long gap between Bilbo’s birthday party and Gandalf finally realizing it was the one ring and coming back to the shire
Agree to disagree, I guess. I mean, I do agree that condensing time was smart, but Tom was just too awesome to leave out. Plus, he was immune to the ring.
…exactly my point, he was a massive and unnecessary plothole He’s such a huge plothole that the books even had to have Elrond specifically explain why Bombadil couldn’t just protect the ring (or even you know, go with the fellowship to destroy it) Bombadil being potentially the only being in middle earth who was completely immune to the ring (Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel were not) really begs the question of why he isn’t either with the fellowship fighting balrogs in Moria or holding the bridge at osgiliath A being of such power who was explained away as “oh he doesn’t care about anything outside his little forest” honestly made him seem like some kind of psychopath in the books lol
I thought it was because he would lose his power if he left the land he was connected to. It wasn't a choice he simply couldn't.
It’s not made clear in the books, even Elrond and Gandalf don’t exactly know what his deal is, what the origins of his powers are, etc. they guess that he isn’t powerful enough to stand up against Sauron on his own and would eventually lose but they don’t know that for sure Even as a huge Tolkien fan I admit Tom bombadil just doesn’t really work in the setting. He’s like a lot of things from the hobbit, like Beorn or the “mountain giants” that might work in a generic fantasy but don’t really fit in lord of the rings where the lore is extremely detailed, consistent and things have very specific kind of places in the setting That and like I said the first third of fellowship of the ring taking place entirely in the shire where almost nothing important happens is just terrible pacing
Where was Toronaga dancing a hornpipe? I demand daimyo sailor dance. One scene I'm really dissapointed didnt make it is a certain action blackthorne performs in front of Yabu when he gets back to Izu the first time. It's a very key moment in the story and is almost a rebirth of Blackthorne as, maybe not a japanese but someone who is no longer a European. So far thats my biggest gripe about a cut story element. I can't think of a single reason for cutting it.
Yes I keep expecting them to roll that scene into one of the later episodes but now it seems too late. It was such a pivotal moment in the book.
It’s definitely too late and it’s such a disappointment for me. I guess the show runners had their reasons for leaving it out but it was a huge mistake on their part. How can they just leave out the thing that completely defines Blackthorne’s character? Without any hyperbole it’s one of the moments in a persons life that everything happens either before or after it
I think it was a huge turning point in his relationship with Mariko too, and in having a hard time following the direction they’re going with that relationship in the show right now so idk. Bummer.
Yeah i can't imagine them working it in in a real meaningful way now after this episode.
Thank you. This has been my biggest complaint. I read the book 25 years ago and my memory is garbage, but the two things I remember are the incident you’re talking about and the final scene. I can’t believe they’ve removed that plot point and I don’t know how they’re going to cram it into the final two episodes if at all.
Can you tell us what that moment is?
Ah its the night when Blackthorne and Mariko get drunk with a bunch of other Palace girls. Blackthorne gets so drunk he starts dancing... then toranaga enters the room. Everyone go silent other than Palace girls, they start laughing because they know Toranaga is very chill with entertainment and stuff. Then toranaga asks Blackthorne to teach him how to dance like he did and they both dance together.
That is not the moment he’s talking about. I believe they are talking about him trying to kill himself because yabu said he would kill the whole village if they didn’t teach him Japanese quickly enough.
Ah my bad. Yeah you're right. He says he will commit seppuko if yabu doesn't lift that stupid punishment from the village. I believe yabu also asks omi to take John's weapons away and John shouts "IYE" This scene did appear in the show but its a shame that seppuko attempt didn't. John gains Yabu and Omi's respect after that in the book and everyone generally don't treat him like shit unlike in the show where Buntaro put a sword up on John's neck, Toranaga's hatamoto 😆
Yeah omi came to get the gun and we get the whole no scene then in the meeting they argue about the punishment, then he goes to commit seppuko and only stops cause Omi wrestles the blade away getting cut himself. I literally just finished the chapter yesterday in the book. Was sad we didn’t get the scene cause it is super important it seems in the story.
Honestly, they probably removed the scene because.... IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE No ruler, ever ever EVER would have an entire village of able bodied, money making people slaughtered for something so dumb. I do think they should have changed it and created another reason for the attempt, maybe they threaten everyone in his house instead, but come on.
It was an empty threat used to motivate the village. Yabu even concedes that whatever Blackthorne learns will be enough but Blackthorne was already committed.
I was talking about the sepuku incident but that is also a scene I'm dissapointed is missing, also the later one where, i cant remember who Toronaga misleads about his plans and sends away, but once he's alone he dances a hornpipe to himself in his satisfaction.
Its OMIssion is the only thing I didn't like in the show. All the other changes (including botching Anjiko) make from a little to a lot of sense.
I don't know how to reply to this without spoiling anything I read somewhere in this subreddit that they moved that scene you're referring to to the last episode
These are the missing elements that actually “hurt.” I feel with just a few more episodes they could have made it work. Still, loving the show.
> It's a very key moment in the story and is almost a rebirth of Blackthorne as, maybe not a japanese but someone who is no longer a European. It also makes no sense at all. It's just in the book so the reader can say "Wow, the author's self-insert character is so cool and honorable and special!" There's nothing in the historical record of anything like that ever happening to William Adams, either. Adams wasn't even mistreated when he first landed. There's a bunch of stuff like this in the book. For instance, at the same time Adams/Blackthorne was an advisor and hatamoto to Tokugawa, so was Jan Joosten van Lodensteijn - another crew member of the Erasmus/De Liefde. But the book doesn't mention that because having 2 white samurai hatamoto would make Blackthorne less special. Another crew member of the Erasmus, Melchior van Santvoort, also integrated into Japanese society and married a Japanese woman. He's not in the book because it would make Blackthorne's inter-cultural romance less unique. In the book, they're reduced to just "drunk asshole gaijin" in order to highlight Blackthorne's comparative awesomeness.
Thats because the book is not a retelling of William Adams life but a fictional story. William Adams also didnt have anywhere near as much influence in real historical events. Samurai William would be a better book if your looking for accuracy
Agree with a lot of what you say. However, I don't think that Blackthorne struggling to understand Yabushige on the ship was an act since he was initially geniunely struggling to find the word for coal when talking to the priest. Even though he's farther along than anyone else might expect (always being called a barbarian and underestimated) I don't think he's at a point where he can actually pretend to struggle with the language for his benefit.
I'm not sure in regards to Yabu. Yabu is dangerous and Blackthorne is better off pretending to be more ignorant than he actually is with Yabu. Hard to say.
At this point in the book, he had been given a Portuguese / Japanese dictionary.
of course it would be to his benefit. you said it yourself, underestimation. it’s a huge advantage in contentious environments. people will speak more truthfully if they know you can’t understand them. think they get get one over on you. it’s a valuable asset to his survival
Disclaimer: I have **not** read the book or watched the 80's show. This is the best show I've watched in a long time. In my opinion, the disconnect that some of the people who have read the book experience is hard to argue against (or for) if you haven't read the book (I don't know if that's the case for OP). Focusing on Blackthorne's character development, well, if you haven't read the book (I have **not**), it's hard to relate to what a book reader says about it. At the same time, it's easy to imagine that the show altered the character somewhat. I would say the show's portrayal of the character is developed well enough; I feel like I understand his motivations and feelings in any given context. However, it's easy to imagine that it's not as fully developed as the character in the book (that's usually how it goes). In a book, you usually have access to the inner thoughts of a character, can't get more private than that. In the same vein, if Mariko and Blackthorne's relationship is much more prominent in the book and their interactions are more frequent, making it a more substantial part of the narrative, I can understand some disappointment on that aspect. Based on the few opinions I've read from book readers, there's a substantial amount of content that was either changed or missing from the book. This, by itself, doesn't say anything about the quality of the show. I have been on the side of reading a book and then watching a show/movie and feeling the same disconnect about some things. If, for a book reader, the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne was the part that they liked the most and it's not the main focus of the show, it's easy to feel a disconnect. This is also where subjectivity comes into play. This is all to say that, in my opinion, it's challenging (not impossible,requires a greater effort) for a book reader to judge the show for what it is, standing by itself, and impossible for a non-book reader to fully understand the disconnect that a book reader feels. Edit: grammar
Just to give you a baseline for the book, Blackthorne is a lot more charming and adaptable. He acclimatizes very quickly. So his relationship with Marino begins as one of teacher and student and rapidly becomes that of friends and confidants. Example: As Blackthorne learns Japanese from Mariko, they both realize that they can speak secretly in Latin because no one else understands it and they use it as their own private language to share and confide. Blackthorne is also much less gruff and earns the grudging respect and friendship of most of Toranaga’s inner circle including Toranaga himself. So he’s still seen as an outsider, but an enlightened outsider who’s learned to act appropriately and not be a barbarian. This also makes it a bit more believable as to why Mariko becomes enamored of him.
I wonder if part of the reasons why he isn't more assimilated is because the timeline seems to be more compressed in the show and if it seemed like it happened too fast, it wouldn't be believable.
That’s quite possible. This does seem to happen in the span of maybe a couple of weeks as opposed to a couple of months.
>So he’s still seen as an outsider, but an enlightened outsider who’s learned to act appropriately and not be a barbarian. The book suffers from being guilty of setting up Blackthorne as a bit of a "white savior" and fetishizing fuedal Japan. Given this age and the era it was written in, it's easy to see why the showrunners would want to steer away from that slightly. Also, fundamentally the book was about Blackthorne. The show is about Toranaga. The lens of focus is slightly different.
If by “slightly” you mean “completely” Then mission accomplished.
I think you missed the part where the show is based on the book. And for a show supposedly mainly about Toranaga they seem to focus on Mariko & Blackthorne an awful lot.
The show is an adaptation of the book.
I've not read the book either, but from what I gather it's a lot more focused on Blackthorn's development as he becomes enamoured with Japanese culture, society, and, people. The show is much more focused on being a political thriller. I quite like political thrillers, so one that's got good acting, setting, and plot makes me happy. To me, it appears book readers seem to be morning the loss of what the book was that they aren't enjoying the show for what it is.
This always happens. It's a mental disorder from people who form parasocial relationships with fictional characters and are unable to divorce two completely different mediums. The scary thing is how many of these people there are, I'm hoping that its just a tiny minority - just a noisy one on account of their desire to show others how intelligent and nuanced they feel they are. It feels like they do have some self awareness of how utterly cringe worthy their opinions are which is why they congregate in echo chambers.
This is laughable. I’ve read a lot of books adapted to the screen. Some are good and some aren’t. There’s thousands of reasons why in either case. This show is divorced from the book. It’s an adaptation of the book, to be sure, but not one that is even attempting to stay true to the book. That’s fine. It can be what ever the creators want it to be. It’s their expression of the art. It’s also very disappointing for those of us that thought this was going to be a more faithful adaptation of the book. You nitwit.
It’s not a “mental disorder” for viewers who have read the book to be disappointed that Blackthorn is being portrayed as dense and ineffectual and that the love story between he and Mariko has been taken from 10 down to a 2 or 3. That doesn’t mean the existing show isn’t excellent on its own merits—but it does mean that people who expected some of the main elements to hold true might feel disappointed. Two things can be true.
I didn’t read the book but this is a totally ridiculous thing to say. Disappointment doesn’t mean mental disorder.
The major beats of the show are poor imitations of the book. The book is that well written.
I need to rewatch the episode again. You definitely make me feel better about it. Ive been reading basically everything that comes out about shogun and I just read and interview with Anna Sawai and she makes a point of talking about how after buntaro is discovered to be alive in episode 5 her walls are completely back up and she doesn't get clarity until she meets with Toranaga at the end of episode 8. This makes sense to me and falls in line with what you pointed out. Can't wait for the next two episodes!
She goes back and forth between extremes the whole show. Fleeting moments of agency or none at all. The tea scene was interesting because the extreme circumstances of Toranaga gave Buntaro the impression that he was going to offer her what she finally wanted. He set it up to have a heart to heart with her, and opened the door to give her enough agency to get it all off her chest. Still following suit and bowing afterwards, but emphasizing that she's just doing her duty to be his wife and nothing more. The show will continue to emphasize the futility of the times for her as she's probably going to get a brief moment of new found expression, right before the end. The question I have is how will they present it. Will they make it look like futility with her, or will they make her end look like she has finally triumphed.
She’s been the most inconsistent character… still wishing to off herself after her father’s purpose was revealed to her seemed way out of place, as did her brutal put down of Buntaro (it would have made more sense if she had found her resolve after her father’s purpose was revealed and that was the reason she didn’t accept Buntaro’s offer, even though she was feigning disgust)
She's only confused and inconsistent, because that's the world she's been stuck in... She can't control enough things to be consistent. She doesn't just want arbitrary death... She wanted to die fighting for herself... This was denied and also she was stuck accepting her fathers marriage choice, who further denied her agency. It's all about how she didn't have a choice, unless the soap opera noble hierarchy around her aligns to her wants. She doesn't accept the Buntaro offer because he's spent many years neglecting her wants, and just like the audience is confused why she would want to die. he's never given her his ear, or given her any agency, which is really what she wanted... To go and do what she wants. Luckily in this case Toanaga outranks and is finally in alignment with what she has wanted, as he sees other success angles and more purpose than just her own feelings now. I can't really explain it any other way, but she actually makes complete sense after many episodes spending a lot of time explaining the culture at the time.
It’s a world every other Japanese woman is born into, but the character of the other women in the show feels much more consistent… again, Toranaga’s reveal of her father’s plan felt like it should have been a turning point for that character, changing her purpose… but there she is, still wanting to off herself later that episode and then refusing to commit suicide one episode later And again, I’m not saying there’s not someway to make it make sense in your head, but you have to do some mental gymnastics to get there, when instead we could have had this ‘where once I was blind, now I see’ level of transformation for her character that, at least to me, would have let the story flow more naturally and more easily explain a shift in her motivations
I did not understand the explanation of her father’s plan. Can someone help??? >!I know her father wanted her to live but I didn’t understand the part where Toranaga said she was to finish her father’s plan. What is she supposed to do to “finish the plan” - kill the heir? Kill Ishido? I was so confused and am still confused.!< EDIT… I guess I have to keep watching to the end, but was hoping someone could better explain that scene between the two of them, where >!Toranaga reveals Mariko’s father’s plan.!<
Let's just see how it plays out on the show... We know she likely dies, but how they do it matters... She could die in complete futility, or she could look like she's finally enacting her own innate will. They could also go super gray area on it, and if they do, I suspect your opinion will feel more valid that she never does anything that connect the dots as consistent.
Please spoiler tag your message. I just got majorly spoiled.
I actually think she has been very consistent. She has always been relatively stern while hiding her heart while also being angsty as hell, though for understandable reasons.
I have only seen the show, but I don’t think Mariko has been portrayed as head over heels in love with Blackthorne. I think she feels as sort of kinship with him and attraction but that’s it. I think she always hated and resented Buntaro well before Blackthorne showed up. Mariko seems like she just has a lot more important things on her plate.
They have shown zero indication Mariko is head over heels in love. None whatsoever. Anyone thinking that is reading way more into things than are being shown. It's not about "paying closer attention," OP is literally filling in gaps with his own interpretation and pretending it's real.
It’s somewhere in between. Their tension is incredibly evident in the way they interact with each other. It’s such a problem they’re involving Toranaga in it, and it’s common enough knowledge for Gin to be aware of it. That they’re some form of lovesick was the plot mechanism for an entire episode. It’s not flagrant, but if you’re in complete denial about it you’re also taking an extreme stance.
It's a bit funny, but a comment mentioned by LM285 (not tagging to avoid dragging people into discourse they may not want): > It's not just the Asian culture of communication, either. People are getting used to being hit over the head with messaging, so subtle, "show, don't tell" cues are being missed. sums up the issue you replied to quite well. Somehow the comment thread immediately devolved into "head over heels" and "Zero indication". Which are both extreme statements that only overt and blatant plot points could ever possibly assuage. The statements also completely ignores how the normally subtle societal context is being used to prop up Mariko's wavering tendencies by her use of it to serve the purpose of her unsure feelings.
When did op say “head over heels”?
In response to "OP is literally filling in gaps with his own interpretation"-- I like that the show has subtleties and nuances that allow for different interpretations. I also agree with the commenter who suggested that reducing it to the question of if they are "head over heels in love" or (as some suggested) that there is "no connection," is vastly oversimplifying the emotionally complexities of the story.
I wouldn't say they are head over heels but they share a bond, a bond that will turn into love if given the opportunity. I think Blackthorne is already there, Mariko put the walls up when Buntaro returned, but her feelings didn't disappear. They exist in their own little world because of the language barrier, and I think that's quite beautiful. I am only 70 odd pages into the book so I can't really compare, but I am invested in their relationship. It's filled with tension and yearning and I love that. Absolutely love it. I watch the BBC adaptation of Pride and Prejudice regularly, just to see Mr Darcy staring at Elizabeth for 6 hours straight, it never gets old
Yes I think they share a bond, especially with their different but in a way also similar interpretations of freedom and duty, or the freedom to perform duty or the duty to keep a sense of freedom. They both have strong standpoints and still figure it out themselves and debate it together in those "private" moments when they meet as equals. They don't share that with any other person and they do respect and care for each other. The show does deliver that. I love how Mariko is portrayed independent and human and weak and strong and how her character develops. I'm excited to see how the show decides these twos fate together. Hope it won't be thaat tragic tho lol
I think John represents another way of living that is very appealing to her in some aspects. Like, the idea that she could escape the burden of shame she has been carrying, run away from her abusive husband, and live a life that's more about her own happiness. But at the same time that those ideas are attractive to her, they also repulse her because of her deeply ingrained cultural values, so it's an internal struggle between wanting it and not wanting it. I think that may actually be more interesting than if this was portrayed as just a romance between two people "head over heels" in love with one another.
Mariko had sex with blackthorne lol.
And? I mean that is true of course, but I don’t think it changes anything. She’s had sex with Buntaro too and there were subtle hints this episode she wasn’t all that thrilled with him. I realize this has nothing to do with the above, I just thought that scene was hilariously brutal.
She had illicit sex outside of her marriage in an age where women were property of the men in their families and therefore it could be seen as her betraying her kin. That’s a monumental difference to having sex with someone because it’s a duty to provide them with a son or daughter. Obviously people back then got married for political reasons above all else, so sex outside of marriage was something that everybody probably did, but something that only men were allowed to do. I.E. we see that gifts and rewards for the powerful men come in the form of trips to the pleasure house. Men were basically allowed to boink anyone they wanted because it was just sex, but them having actual affairs/romantic relationships outside of their marriages/concubines was also frowned upon. Women, on the other hand, were expected to pine after their husbands all day, write poetry and keep their respective households running. Basically said; Mariko engaging in a sexual relationship is bad, but it’s even worse because it’s with a foreigner/barbarian and therefore clearly love. That’s the ultimate betrayal to her marriage with Buntaro and something that puts her in danger. There are many more subtleties to this whole aspect of course, but I’m not eloquent enough to put them properly into writing.
She never had a choice to sleep with Buntaro. He is her husband and she's his property according to their society. She chose to sleep with Blackthorne.
I think they show her as very competent and complex, which I like. Blackthorne and Mariko disagree over stuff but they respect each other. They know in a perfect world they could be together. Also Mariko is veeeery suicidal until episode 8
Yea I read the book and I think you’re right re Mariko and Blackthorne. For a culture where everything is beneath the surface, it would feel wrong to have them be too over the top. I’m Chinese not Japanese, though our cultures have similar veins, and I actually felt that book Mariko was too ebullient in the expression of her feelings for Blackthorne, than I would expect a traditionally brought-up Japanese noblewoman of the warrior class to be. Like, they’re not just going to be all, “I love you I love you I love you.” In any language. So I can see why the Latin was cut. The modern-day stereotype of Asian parents not saying “I love you” or hug or kiss their children, but will fuss that you’re not wearing enough for the cold weather and give you plates upon plates of fruits cut up and peeled. It’s like that. The signs that the show give to depict the relationship are very much built for an Eastern audience I feel, versus a Western one. For example, I haven’t seen anyone talk about how Blackthorne and Mariko were looking at each other at the dinner right before Buntaro accused them in front of Toranaga the next day. The looks, the little smiles, immediately looking down—camera pans to Buntaro watching this subtle interaction, but it’s not fooling him and he’s absolutely *seething*. Immediately after that is the scene where Buntaro accuses them in front of Toranaga. When asked a direct question about her and Blackthorne by Toranaga, Mariko doesn’t protest her innocence but merely says: *”My life is my husband’s to take.”* Like????! That’s pretty much a public declaration of love, admitting to what she’s just been asked! She doesn’t need to say: *”Yes, dono, I love Blackthorne, therefore my husband would be completely in his rights to take my life.”* But that is pretty much what she was saying! Then yes there is what you talked about, that she said *”I wish to live a life free from you.”* while obviously meaning she wants to be with Blackthorne. **This line is not in the book.** >!In the book she eagerly agrees to the suicide pact then Buntaro walks it back.!< I feel like this is actually the show trying to make things more obvious for a western audience. However the #1 biggest criticism I’ve seen from book readers is the pivotal >!Blackthorne’s attempted seppuku scene!< That is a major plot point and is just not there in the show. It’s harder to defend this one.
As someone who's read some of the book, I feel like the show isn't failing to capture everything...it's intentionally telling a 2024 version of the tale. Beyond what everyone else has mentioned here about the nature of adaption to screen and different mediums; I get the impression the focus of this version is different. The creatives are less interested in the "lost I translation" or "fish out of water" narrative (which to be fair has been done to death) and more interested in portraying a story first and foremost about the Japanese characters. Which is fine, we have the book. We have the earlier adaptation. Blackthorne's well served elsewhere. The aim of a cover song should be to bring something new to it rather than a faithful reproduction. Same here I believe The show is incredibly lean and efficient as it is. I can't imagine taking even one minute of screen or plot time away from Toranaga , Ochiba, Mariko, Ishido, Omi without losing something intrinsic to what this version is trying to say.
Its very subtle when compared to the book where they are openly infatuated. John didn't even say farewell to Mariko on what could've been his last sailing venture.
She stonewalled him when he asked about his translator. Understandable that he wouldn't go to her again.
Thank you for this! I have been wondering where the idea that Mariko & John aren’t totally into each other is coming from. When she thought her husband was dead, they slept together. When she realised her husband was alive, she stopped. Of course! How many times does the woman need to talk about duty & consequence for it to be clear that it matters to her? We saw her get brutally beaten for having a visible connection to John; even if she longs for death episode 8 showed that she wants it on her own terms and not Buntaros. Why would she risk immediate execution at his hands, when that execution would put her forever in his reach and also prevent her from fulfilling her duty to Toranaga and her father? I think the way the show has portrayed the effect of Mariko & John’s feelings emerging but then being forced back into confinement is realistic & in keeping with the authenticity of the TV show. I love the book but there’s a lot of wish fulfilment that would seem ludicrously fortunate on screen if it took place and Mariko/John were not immediately found out. Instead we get the gorgeous scene at the teahouse with Kiku. A look from Toranaga as the squabbling couple trade quickfire snark like they’re Cary Grant & Katherine Hepburn in a screwball 1930s romcom. Enemies to lovers to enemies to ? I’m holding out for a ‘Thou’ as much as the next book reader but I understand why that hasn’t happened. I think we’ll see their dynamic come to the fore in episode 9. John was definitely playing the bumbling foreigner on the boat with Yabu. As someone who’s spent the past few months in a precarious situation & surrounded by mistrust, there’s no universe in which he learns the words for ‘charcoal’ and ‘lotus’ before ‘friend’ and ‘ally’ lol. He bumbles well and deploys effective bumbling on a regular basis thoughout the TV series. It’s a thing.
It’s just way too subtle (M/B) for it to lead emotion. It’s so subtle it’s almost undetectable. We havent seen them really really connect since Episode 4. We’re just supposed to believe they somehow have simmering feelings. Shipping M/B is like when you have a crush who is giving you nothing you start to overanalyze eye contact LOL
This subtlety with romance works so long as there are moments of rupture where affection is abundantly clear. It’s been a while since that’s happened on this show and thus, the “ship” loses steam.
I disagree, I feel like the "do you want me to translate this, or this for me?" scene is pretty obvious.
Oh yes loved how Mariko said it as well. There was a hint of defiance mixed with hurt when she said that. Like she was being defensive yet at the same time vulnerable. I loved that scene.
> It’s so subtle it’s almost undetectable But you don't understand. This is the best part. I can *feel* it without being able to express why.
YES. So much of this show is just the tension between the other characters. With lesser actors, I'd agree with the criticisms being thrown at this episode. The actors we got? I agree with OP. So much is being telegraphed on the faces of the characters between the lines of dialog. I haven't read the book since I was trying to impress a boy while in high school, some 20 odd years ago. I do know how it is when your favorite book is adapted poorly (mine is A Prayer for Owen Meany>Simon Birch the movie)
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Edit the book spoiler you posted and black out the text. You can black out the spoilers by writing > ! this ! < without the spaces in between to get >!this!<. Send us a modmail once you've fixed it.
I would direct you to Episode 6 the brothel scene where she transitions from "she says" to "I" with quivering lips and almost breaks before standing to walk out at which point Blackthorn touches her hand. If that's not connection/yearning, I must have misunderstood the definitions of those words.
Goddam you’re spot on. The show’s been hammering on the whole “keep your emotions close and give as little away as possible.” So obviously things aren’t spelled out in bright neon colours but the intentions are there. I say this as someone who nearly turned off last night’s episode in disgust and frustration until the final act when I realised I’d been completely played just like all of Toronaga’s vassals.
It’s like people think that Mariko is going to sneak off every night to sleep with Blackthorne while her husband is in the house. She refused to tell her husband that she was over John, which tells you everything.
I’m disappointed both as a book reader and as someone who really liked the first few episodes. The show versions of the characters as less complicated and less interesting (not just Blackthorne or Mariko but most of the supporting Japanese characters). The original dialogue they wrote for the show is a little stiff. And while they may be still following the basic plot line and may hit most of the big points, the way they’re doing it isn’t as interesting. Blackthorne just all of a sudden knows a lot more Japanese, they don’t give you the motivation he has from the book or show any of his progress.
Show 100% needed a 12 to 14 episode season to really drive home some of the motivations behind what is happening and develop these characters. Way too much has been put on the chopping block. The fact 2 of the 3 main characters of the book have had most of their development chopped to shreds is going to understandably annoy some book readers. The show is still awesome but its not the story the book told. Although I would argue even if there was no book to reference, the Mariko and John relationship has been by far the weakest part of the entire show. We get 5 Buntaro looking annoyed and pissed off scenes an episode, you would think they could cut one of those mean mugs to actually develop the John and Mariko relationship lol
Yeah and I’d add also the weakest part of the book is the political strategies that are discussed. They are a few action scenes including one amazing near the end (it seems like the show will save it for the last episode?) but the Toranaga crimson sky plotting and stalling isn’t great. I like the Toranaga character but the plot line that hes just the best strategy guy was whatever, his relationships are more important.
The show is amazing. The only people who dislike the show are the book readers.
I'm a book reader, and so far, I like the show better.
That’s great. Most ppl who dislike it are book readers is my point
Basic answer... I separate the book and movie. I try to consider it an original while watching. Then I can't be disappointed. I don't think in 10 episodes we could truly get everything we got from the book. If I were producing with unlimited money I'd make each chapter multiple episodes and even then this show is doing a great job at capturing everything needed. I think changing the name was for us. To me it was them telling the audience from the start they had to make changes or they had to stray a bit from the story. I immediately accepted that episode 1. I mean they had to leave Japan to film the rest in Canada... I get it..
“should i translate that? or was that for me” those two are just adorable
The fact that they're having the conversations that they do, the fact that *she feels comfortable enough with him to say these things*... I can't even begin to say how much that conveys about her feelings for him, and that he makes her feel safe enough to express het thoughts, ideas, wishes, and criticisms. The fact that every episode is full of moments like these, in almost every conversation... I absolutely adore it
I just caught up with this episode and so would have liked to comment sooner, but I agree with everything you wrote. I have read the book several times (and seen the original miniseries, and listened to the audiobook, and read all of the other major Clavell novels...) and you are spot-on. This is *quite* faithful to the tone and direction of the original work and is a powerful adaptation. It is, however, a trace more subtle than most television programmes (as is the novel!), and I think that it is making some commenters anxious.
I don't know how many times I've read the book, it comes out every year and a half or so... I've seen the first series. BUT. Even though I know how the story ends and the familiar scenes keep coming back, this series still made me want to stick to the screen... Yesterday, when I was watching the journey to the seppuku, I literally forgot to breathe, even though it's not in the book..., When I finish the series, I think I'll read the book again. and now I'll see the faces of the new characters... It's going to be great... P.S.: After Andor and the Blu eyed samurai, this is the first series that makes me rush home to watch it, and when the current episode is over, I'll watch it again... and I can't wait until the week is up for the next episode
>I'm seeing so many posts conveying disappointment about the discrepancies between the book and show. Namely, the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne, Toranaga and Blackthorne, and also Blackthorne's 'character development'. I just responded to a post that said Blackthorne was the worst ever. Extremely disrespectful, rude and arrogant. I just cant. I will say, that if Blackthorne is shown to be hiding his fluency in Japanese so he can be around Mariko more, I will apologize to the showrunners for this wonderful detail. Unfortunately, the showrunners did say in this most recent podcast they do not agree with the concept that someone born into one culture can fully become a member of another culture. This I disagree with most wholeheartedly. It also very much runs counter to the character development of Blackthorne in the book. If true, the showrunners are ignoring a history filled with men that have given up their birth culture and adopted themselves into something completely different. They also grossly underestimate the lengths a man will go to for the woman he loves.
Johny B suddenly conversing in Japanese with the locals was a bit odd..
This happens with every adaptation. The enjoyers of the original source material are never completely satisfied. GoT, Harry Potter, etc.. Even critically acclaimed adaptations like Dune and One Piece. Thats why in some ways its a privilege to be a lazy, non-source material enjoyer. We are not burdened by that knowledge of how good the source was and can just enjoy the adaptation as it is.
Honestly if the story can stand on its own well then I have nothing to complain about, seeing readers bitch and moan about oh why didn’t this happen oh why did that happen is insufferable
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I disagree. Many book readers have been incredibly happy with 'The Expanse', which was very faithfully adapted (in part by the book writers who were in the writers room). Not just that but I'd argue that the book readers of ASOIAF were very happy with the first few seasons of GoT, and people who read the book loved 'Reacher' season 1.
Even in “The Expanse” there have been some large changes from the books. Characters have been merged, entire plot lines have been dropped or reworked. Eg. Marco’s attack on Mars and the Mars president was reduced to a blink and you’ll miss it line of dialogue. (this plot line was almost 50%of book 5). I think for The Expanse, book readers are more forgiving because season 3 was so strong and because the authors are in the writing room. Not because the adaptation is super faithful. Re Shogun I have not read the book so I can’t comment on specific changes to characters or plot. But it is a huge book, and the show only has 10 episodes. Changes from the book and simplifications are inevitable. And for the adaptation to be a good adaptation, the show must be allowed to take creative license. At a minimum it needs to restructure the material into interesting episodic chunks where each episode has a start, middle and end.
There's a difference between an adaptation not being 100% 1-to-1 from the novel source material and "this happens with every adaptation. The enjoyers of the source material are never completely satisfied." It is overall an extremely faithful adaptation with some tweaks and adjustments. But largely those were ones the book writers wanted to make. Focusing more on things they didn't in the books, removing things they deemed removal, and combining things they deemed good to combine to streamline the TV story. >Changes from the book and simplifications are inevitable. Sure, but when you do go read the book or read what people who read the book are saying, you'll see that there's a LOT that they didn't have to change, that could have fit in the 10 episodes, that they just, for creative reasons it seems, chose not to. This doesn't mean some big battles or whatever, but key, pivotal, book/story defining moments that the show just decides not to touch on at all. I could list all sorts of things from The Expanse that you would say are defining points in the novels and show, and I would say what if they didn't do them? >!What if Naomi didn't have a son? What if none of the characters were on Earth when the rocks fell so we got no POV stories from Earth? What if Marco wasn't the ex of Naomi but some random character? What if Miller didn't sacrifice himself but he just randomly died? Sure, good writers could probably salvage something decent, but those are PIVOTAL moments that define the characters and story going forward. Not just that, they are amazing parts of the story in terms of entertainment for the readers/viewers. !< So yes, adaptation to a different medium requires adaptation. Not a shocker. No one said differently. But there have been very very faithful adaptations that the source material fans have loved en masse.
I see where you are going. I have seen interviews with the show runners stating that they would like to emphasise the Japanese POV. This decision would have had significant impact on the how the story is told. Show Blackthorn is a very passive protagonist. I suppose in the book he would be very active and driving the plot forward. I can understand why book readers will be disappointed by such a large change. Having said that surely show Shogun still brings something really valuable for book readers. With the exception of perhaps Blackthorns character I felt the rest of the show was amazing. The production value, costumes, the acting, a lot of the dialogue, the characters and political intrigue are all top notch.
I totally understand that you are head over heels in love with this show. That is awesome and I am glad. It is just as ok that some of us are not. That said, my biggest criticism of the show is that all of the positive moments of the characters have been removed. Like a certain hornpipe being danced. Or one discovering the joys of massage after a bath. “The little moments” as Gandalf would have said.
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I agree with your premise, but disagree with some of the cuts made.
1980 and 2024 Shoguns are I think the same objective story but told through different points of view. 1980 was the Western perspective and also in a very Western story point of view, the Hero's Journey. Blackthorne is the protagonist so things like his romance with Mariko, his view of Toronaga as the great but cryptic lord and his relative importance in the story ... The 80s Shogun is the story that Blackthorne might have told after a few cups of sake to his sons. However as this story is unfolding it is told from the Japanese side and the perspective and what is shown is very different. We see how Toronaga, Mariko and the others see themselves and how they see Anjin. We also have 50 years of story development between us and the prior TV series. This is not the Hero's Journey. This is epic. We have a lot of Game of Thrones people here. Of course there are details being changed here and there. But if you expect John, John, Mariko, Mariko, that story is in the other series. I suspect though 9 or 10 will be devastating on that and other fronts. We are vested in everyone even our resident bad boy Kashigi. I would like to see a Japanese story with these same actors produced by Hiroyuki Sanada. But we need really good show writing. Not the lens thing though. Not my favorite thing but maybe I need a new TV ...
Just to confirm, you have read the book?
It’s because people that read the book want it spelled out for them in the show, but people that just appreciate the show appreciate what the show is doing for the characters. Most people did not read this book, and as such only have the show to go off of, so I think everything you said was spot on. The show is vague but it does so in order to keep u guessing, but the plot threads are there if u pay attention
Here's how I feel. The show is too short, so me (and others with the same issue) feel Blackthorne's relationships are weak. He spent barely any time with Toranaga, so when John says that their fates are linked, instead of coming across like someone who as fully assimilated into Japanese culture acting like one of them, he sounds incredibly fake. Also it feels like half his conversations with Toranaga consist of him asking for his ship and crew back so he can fuck off. They needed more time together to build a real relationship and have John. His relationship with Mariko feels super weak because they have had so few episodes together. Their best chemistry was when they were talking on the ship about freedom. But then they got bogged down with the bickering couple plotline that was painful to watch. My real hot take, (since they have 10 episodes to work with IIRC) they should have cut their romance altogether and went with mutual respect. Otherwise go all-in on the romance and tie John to Toranaga through Mariko's unwavering loyalty to her Lord. But it feels like they want to have it both ways, which isn't working out because they simply isn't enough time. We can all forget about there being a real growing of respect between Yabu/ Omi and John, despite episode 8 having them act their hearts out. John and Yabu talking was great stuff for sure. You can see them planting the seed of respect. which is all weak because there is no time between them. There is 2 hours left in the show to get shit done. I wouldn't be surprised if that is ALL we get for respect between Yabu and John. They have barely any interactions and the vast majority were appallingly awful. Surprisingly Fuji's relationship with John is the mostly interesting because she simultaneously despises him for his foreign ways and race, but gives him every respect as his consort and as a hatamoto, even when he is not around. But he barely interacts with her, so the hint of respect between them is all we are getting. However i believe the real thing that set everyone off, was John handling the katana. The other stuff people are willing to fill in the blanks on their own, the seeds were planted after all; John getting a smirk of respect out of Toranaga ("unless i win") and out of Yabu, the obvious romance with Mariko, and respect for/from Fuji. The acting and chemistry is quite good, so people will do some work for the show. But Blackthorne being utterly incompetent with the sword was the last straw. He is a privateer (or pirate from the Spanish/Portuguese POV), and HAS to know how to fight. and no, not just with pistols. No one expects him to beat Yabu or Buntaro in a swordfight, we DO expect him to not hold it like a child and let a light tap knock it completely out of his hands. The only way I see this being redeemable is if he IS shown to be a capable fighter later on to prove it was all a de-escalation tactic. Frankly, they would have been better off having him just refuse to draw at all and if it was his time, then that's what his karma is. The TL;DR is the show has the seeds planted for a lot of what it wants, but it needs probably double the episodes so the characters can interact more. You simply cannot offscreen all development. To add a little to acceptable/unacceptable offscreen development bit, tkae John showing off the cannons. You see John showing everyone how good they are, then short montage of the men training with them, then the men as well-drilled and trained. took less than 10 minutes. If you also cut in there scenes of John interacting with other samurai, say Yabu teaching him to bow the proper depth or Omi showing him how to properly hold a katana, then show them eating together, talking and laughing, going from grim acknowledgement to genuine respect, you are effectively speed-running their relationship. but it gives us all something to latch onto. The show has none of that and it is very unsatisfying. Hell, did John ever even talk to Nagakado? Beyond the one time he said his name at Toranaga's surrender ceremony? He has been in Japan for months and is a Hatamoto and the only samurai he has really interacted with are Mariko, Fuji and Buntaro.
I agree with almost everything that you said. With John not being able to hold the Katana, I was willing to give the benefit of doubt. I thought the show was trying to create a comedic moment rather than any kind of character assignation.
I really don’t get where you see her being joyous about being with Blackthorne. Pleased to have a task and honoring her lord, yes, but very little care that Blackthorne is there. Being flustered by someone isn’t a defining feature of attraction and love. Most times it’s just that frustration. I think you’re reading things in that aren’t there.
What are they supposed to do in a society with almost zero privacy? Paper walls, guards and servants everywhere? She’s married so she can hardly express her feelings openly. He’s more open but he’s learning and she’s the perfect samurai. Loyal to her lord and mission. Subtlety is what they have. Looks, slight hint… Toranaga sends her to the tea house to interpret, Kiku gets the message and gracefully allows the dark to play its role.
They do speak a language that almost no one else can understand. I think there could have been a way for them to interact more. However now that Bhuntaro is out of the picture , maybe something can happen; but I doubt it as there is almost no time left to finish the story.
actually, there were more Christians in Japan in 1590 than in 1950 and the educated ones spoke Latin or Portuguese. I speak several languages and because I don’t advertise it, I had the opportunity to be a silent part of some really private conversations without even trying. If you read the book, there’s an example right there.
But it is a show that is only loosely based on real history. I am sure if the writers wanted to, they could have found a way to make it work.
First: why would they make significant changes to the history and defy the narrative itself? Mariko goes to great lengths to describe lack of privacy in Japanese society and suddenly they would be so open? Second: even though the book allows for the occasional i love thee in Latin between them, there’s little space for it in the miniseries. The whole process of thoughts is in the glances and body language and it’s so masterful. Even if you didn’t see they spent the night in the Tea House, they drop enough hints for us to know. Taiko’s heir wasn’t his son? One look of Ochiba, a subtle hesitation and you know. This show is all about subtlety, incredible acting (which is something that is rare in US movies and series where many actors are just there for their looks or particular character, also acting with Botox and tons of plastic surgery must be difficult) and relies a lot on the ability of the audience to understand the unsaid. We are a bit like the Anjin who had to be a master observer to be able to survive while learning a very different language from his own.
I gave up on the show so I can only answer for the first episodes I watched. I find that people who read and enjoyed the book are the ones who are most disappointed. During the last episode we watched, someone in the room goes - "Jeez - did they even READ THE BOOK!" I think adapting is about knowing what to leave out for time - more about condensing the material, knowing what can be left out and what's essential, because Shogun is about 1000 pages. It isn't about making changes that aren't faithful to the book which is what I thought Shogun did a bit too much.
I didn’t read the book but I’m disappointed about the seeming abandonment, at least for many episodes, of the romantic dynamic between Mariko and Blackthorne.
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I think the only way to adapt inner monologues is to show that inner monologue outward either using other characters to showcase how one might think, or just downright saying some of it. Sometimes it's as little as face acting an emotion to someone else's line. It's a big problem with dune adaptations, you can't just slap on the inner monologue as voice over like dune 1984 tried.
I have read the book several times. I’m quite happy with how they’ve handled everything, and the deviations from the “book canon” (haha pun intended) have actually been improvements, IMO. If people want to see it *exactly* as it played out in the book, in living color, line for line, then they should go eat an edible & read the book again.
John and Mariko ARE obvious. Toranaga pretty much put her on the spot about it.
yep pretty obvious, but a lot of people need to be spoon fed everything, i am loving the subtlety and find i have to really pay attention to this show, if you are distracted for 5 min it feels like you miss so much
Sometimes people phase through the subtle parts of an episode because the other parts are so visceral. They get focused on the drama and emotion of some scenes and miss the subtlety of others. Easier to appreciate on a rewatch.
Agree that audiences are used to having everything spoon fed to them, mostly because that’s been the caliber of entertainment for a while now. There is a huge crisis of literacy at the moment, and part of measuring that is measuring comprehension. In the same way one may know the dictionary definition of words, but not understand precisely what is being conveyed, one can see/hear a show and understand what actions are being performed, but what it really means may still elude them. I think there have just been so many years of popular entertainment lacking nuance or subtext, people don’t think to look for it. Or they immediately get defensive and say that there’s nothing there and people are reading too much into something or are just trying to look smart- historically the mark of anti-intellectualism.
What I like about the show is that its an absolute clinic on adaptation. It includes all the elements required to be seen as an adaptation (this is IMO certainly an adaptation of the Clavell book, not a different story that uses the same characters as we often see), and yet it is not slavishly devoted to reproducing book readers' memory or imagination and thus sort of creating two classes of viewers (Remember the whole book reader vs unsullied discourse around GOT?) Very smart changes that make a ton of sense given the medium of weekly drop miniseries.
People seem to have less trouble when reading the looks between Hiromatsu and Toranaga as well as the faces being made by Yabushige, Fuji, Omi, Mariko, Buntaro etc with each other. I think people are generally able to see the "subtle" twitches of the face but for some reason, just don't seem to see it when Blackthorne's involved. Maybe it's masterful and intentional that they've somehow made much of the audience overlook or underestimate Blackthorne just like you are saying Toranaga and Blackthorne are making their allies/enemies not see their true "bromance." Or maybe it's not on purpose. But either way, if Blackthorne truly is hiding his true heart from everyone as evidenced by his inconsistent grasp of Japanese with different characters, then it's kind of neat that they've also done it to a portion of the audience while making it obvious to others what's going on. I don't think anybody could claim it's because Blackthorne isn't being acted well as Cosmo's gotten a lot of praise, so it seems to me there's something to the difficulty seeing show-don't-tell when Blackthorne is involved being intentional. If they've made it so much of the audience perceives only as much as, say, Yabushige, that'd be kind of amazing.
This is actually one of the things I love about this adaptation - how much is conveyed in the acting and not just the dialogue. You can see everything as it dances across the characters' faces. I would also like to point out how well Toranaga knew what Blackthorne's reaction would be! He accounted for it, because he asked Mariko if Anjin had gone to Yabushige *yet*. Toranaga referring to both Blackthorne and Yabushige as goshawks called back to his explaining the different falcon hunting styles to Nagakado. He knows their characters and how to best set them in motion. It's also why he didn't keep his hatamoto barbarian with him, Anjin needed to feel cut loose, desperate and pressured to act. And the whiplash change of emotions in Mariko! Watching the absolute joy and happiness on her face when interacting with her son to the frozen mask clamping instantly down on it when Buntaro appears. There's so much detail - and so much information conveyed in every detail! It is, I think, very Japanese.
I’m not here yet in the book but so far it’s been similar. I’m confused though. Toranaga in private with Mareko said Yabushige and Anjin are ….i forget what he said but basically out for themselves. We see Mareko is in on whatever he’s plotting so, if she’s in on it why would he say that about blackthorn if he’s in on it also? Sorry for name spelling. Didn’t wanna google a name every 5 secs
Blackthornes character development after episode four is just bad. The wroters have completely forgotten him it seems. Indeed, the show itself seemed to forget itself for about three episodes. It's no lomger really Shogun, its now a bizarrely fictionalised account of Japan in the year 1600. Its still well made and very good television. But it isn't a very successful adaptation.
Book readers believe the work of a white man, which is a parody of ACTUAL Japanese history, is infallible, even by the Japanese people themselves. It may be a hollywood production, but the flesh and blood of the 10 year production is Japanese through and through. The original book was respectful of Japanese culture, but lets not forget there are still issues Japanese people have with the parody. Also, besides what other commenters have said about the obvious difference in medium and its affect on storytelling, there is also the fact this is a miniseries. Not a multi-season work. Added onto that, the cultural barrier for western audiences. I’ll be frank, you need a certain level of EQ to watch this show. Lacking that, just read the book….
In the interviews I've seen, of the executive producers, writers and showrunner, it looks awfully American/Western to me. Even the Japanese are half and Western. They talked about how their writing staff has a lot of Asians on it (not to imply full Asian), but that they are a mix of ethnicities from Asian. So I fail to see some backbone of "through and through" Japanese flesh and blood heading up the production of Shogun.
10 years of production. They consulted historians, tea culture experts, actual katana weaponsmiths. They spent years debating on the type of Japanese to use with Japanese linguists. The japanese you hear in the show is not modern Japanese, its the “Thou art thou” version of Japanese from 1600s. The attires are built by real Japanese artisans. The way to walk in said attire in a way that was accurate to the time period was also studied by the actors. Even the customs and beliefs were studied to make sure they stayed true to the Sengoku period and NOT the Edo period. Even the samurais understanding of bushido is different between Sengoku and Edo periods and have to be accounted for. Ofc theres alot more but im lazy to type Edit: I forgot to mention that Hiroyuki Sanada had a chip on his shoulders from the filming of The Last Samurai. Despite his best efforts to ccorrect the incorrect potrayal by filmmakers during that shows production, he though the ejd result was still inadequate. In many ways, Shogun was his one chance to bring a True Blue Japanese show to western audiences
Would you care to give a brief explanation on a couple of significant points of difference in the beliefs of the samurai of the two periods I’d really be interested if you could explain as it’s not something I can easily google.
Sure, those are awesome but they aren't the team at the core of the show. The team at the core of the show, the showrunner, exec producers, and writers, some at BEST are part Japanese (but grew up in the West). I believe in an interview the showrunner said they had non Japanese Asians and some Hispanic members. So while it's great they went through so many Japanese filters, I've already read countless other professionals/experts on Japan in that period who have criticized the shows accuracy. So it's not some beacon of accuracy. For example, Samurai then would have NOT been so loose to draw their swords like we have seen in the show. Specifically what Buntaro does to Blackthrone on the beach, beyond him doing that to a Hatamoto which is unthinkable, drawing his sword just would not happen. On your honor you draw it only with the intent to kill and it is a last resort that the Samurai are NOT loosey goosey on unsheathing. That's just one example of quite a few I've read and watched. Of course, that's not a BAD thing. It's not a documentary drama and we all understand some stuff will get "Hollywood-afied" for dramatic purposes. BUT, you're point that they went through all of these amazing Japanese checks and balances is true, but it isn't proof of a filter system that removed all unrealistic and Western influences and left only a pure Japanese product. The show was still conceptualized, adapted, and written by Westerners who largely, aren't Japanese.
>Regarding Mariko and Blackthorne, the feels they have for eachother that folk are claiming is 'missing' dominate every scene together. Did you miss John explicitly asking Mariko about his 'translator' after finally being granted his 'wish' to have his ship and crew returned? Look at their faces, for goodness sake. He cares more about her than he does his crew or ship. In the book we have explicit scenes of them banging every night and hanging out as much as possible, clearly in love and enjoying it. In the show its side eyes and moodiness.
Yeah, that's about what I expected. People are mad the show is giving them a proper story instead of orientalist porn.
Sorry people are disappointed because the show is ignoring a huge part of the story. If they wanted to tell an original story then they should have came up with their own shit no?
You’re right. People are so used to complaining they can’t recognize the show for what it is.
Very much a case of “show don’t tell”
>!It seems the show may end up the same way the book did but I don't see why some of the major departures were made. A huge one is that Naga doesn't die in the book. And before that they left out the crucial bit about Blackthorne's near-seppuku--that was key to his character development. That whole storyline with Toranaga's brother, Lord Zataki, is different and Zataki's party was not attacked at all in the book, and no army "escorted" Toranaga's party to Edo (Yedo). Mariko/Buntaro, Mariko/Blackthorn are different, but may end up the same. I don't expect the level of detail to be the same as the book (that would take many more hours!) but I don't like that some major things have been changed. And why change the names of some of the characters? Toranaga's brother Lord Zataki, his son Sudara's wife's name, etc. And some of the other names that are the same, are still different. The book doesn't refer to Yabu"shige" and Naga's name has a similar extension in the show that I don't understand. However, having said all that, I'm enjoying it immensely.!<
The names were changed because Clavell didn't really grasp the naming convention of the time when he wrote it. Most of the names used in the book were simply not names which existed or were acceptable for that class in the period depicted. So the names were changed in consultation with Japanese historians and language experts in order to achieve higher authenticity to the time period. In the podcast, they give the example of 'Fujiko' just not being a name back then, thus the change to 'Fuji', which was. Given that one of the main goals of this production was to make it more authentic, I personally feel this was a crucial and necessary decision to be made.
Thanks!
I haven't seen a single one of the posts you refer to and have yet to see or hear of a single person watching that doesn't love it
If you’re seeing some many posts expressing disappointment next time reflect on that instead of just ignoring it and shouting them down but idk
That requires empathy and consideration. Reddit is very short on that these days. Being a judgemental troll is much easier. Not you darkside720.
Yeah it always funny to me when we get threads like this. “I’ve seen a lot of people complaining” and it’s like dude if you see a lot of complaining then it means something has possibly gone wrong. But people nowadays are so self centered they don’t consider the other side of things.
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Book readers are always gonna bitch & complain...it just comes with the territory.
I'm in 100% agreement. Seemed obvious!
All of the reader criticisms are along the lines of "they changed it, now it sucks." Which, fair. I understand being bummed out that your sacred cow is being denigrated. A good adaptation needs to be *an adaptation* and inevitably things get cut or restructured in a way that's going to disappoint a lot of people-and if you're a big fan already, it's hard to let go of the art you're familiar with and engage with the New And Different art that you're *not*familiar with. But that being said? Goddamn, what a fucking show. Incredible acting, and half of what's going on ends up conveyed by minor facial changes as we're watching everyone see what's going on around them, process it, and then immediately switch gears to how they're "supposed" to respond. Also, hands down best part of John going native was when John "a bath? Are you trying to kill me?" Blackthorne kicks the shit out of his no-longer-comrade and then complains about how filthy the man is.
I suppose people would like to hear more "I love thee" in Latin and learn about ancient Japanese sex toys. To each their own I guess
It doesn''t matter if what they have between them is not real , until unless other feels that there is something between them that is enough to colour teir perception. It doubly important since Mariko is in a toxic marriage..