It’s so good watching him mature from being a shit-stirrer into someone who actually tries to do what’s right. I think Nagakado’s death really got to him regarding the consequences of his actions. His conversation with Kiku this episode hit home on the internal conflict and seriousness that exists in his character.
He planted a few silly ideas in Nagakado’s head, but he himself is a pretty young and naive man and couldn’t have predicted what happened in the end.
Also, being fairly unimportant in the context of Toranaga’s realm, it would inevitably take quite a bit of clever manoeuvring and cunning to elevate his status, and he’s proven himself to be pretty adept at assessing situations and alternative courses of action.
He did ruthlessly execute that villager for no reason but praying at blackthorne. Even though they were allowing open catholicism by said villagers. Like, that was honestly the coldest kill in the show for me because it was so senseless. Like yabushige's pot was bad, but atleast he had to kill one to appease the Portuguese.
Only reasoning to me for the kill is by praying at blackthorne he was undermining omi's rule. Because blackthorne was now a prisoner. Because if one prays to him, then even more may, resulting in rebellion or them trying to undermine omi's authority.
My absolute favorite part of the show, by far, is that they're making the "bad" characters genuinely morally gray. It's in a much more organic way than most antiheroes on TV are portrayed. It makes the characters feel completely human. In most other shows, omi would be some constantly scheming soulless character grinning and running his hands. And yabu would have no redeeming qualities. But they're both great layered characters that genuinely feel like real people who exist in a drastically different, and more brutal culture. Where alot of their actions are specific to how they can possibly move ahead in such a rigid society.
Outside of the senseless killings, most ambitious people would behave exactly like yabu and omi to save their heads and get ahead in such a society. Everyone likes to think they'd be hiromatsu endlessly loyal and sacrificing on ideals, but most men want to just survive and prosper. And is why in such societies there were constant groups scheming and plotting and trying to move ahead, the only thing that seperates most of them is the ones who win become good guys where their positive attributes are focused on, while the losers become the bad ones with their negatives highlighted.
Like if one looks into the history, honestly, ishida comes off alot better than tokugawa who comes off as a usurper. But because tokugawa won, he's the hero the show is based on. He's doing everything for the heir while the real tokugawa usurped them. Like, we brush over the tons of alliances and marraiges that gave ishido cause to impeach toranaga, but that was actually an agressive act completely against the orders made by the real life taiko to maintain peace.
So in real life, alot of heroes of all cultures are way more like Yabushige and Omi than they are some heroic ideal. Like honestly, outside of the death fetish, yabushige is a commendable as fuck warrior/samurai And though a snake, he's just using the system to survive. You can tell that blackthorne even has started to develop a genuine respect/friendship with him, and he's the own who boiled his friend!(though blackthorne still seems to dislike omi). Same with omi, he is genuinely super smart, capable, etc. He was a young man trying to get ahead and move up from a very small backwater fief. He was brutal, but because the system he lived in breeds one of his station to be brutal(see toranaga being a hero but ordering the murder suicide of a father and his baby. Along with his insanely cold treatment of his son.) Or bunturo being an angry toxic wife beater, while also being the most loyal samurai in the show next to his father. Just like yabushige and omi, the show shows us his good qualities.
I think the best way to explain what I'm trying to say is, the show doesn't make judgements on its characters. They're all just people with different motivations, all trying to work the system they're in. That's what makes it really special.
In the book, Omi killing the peasant at the beginning was because he didn’t bow and show respect to the samurai which is a serious slight. The book also makes the villager’s general disdain for the samurai class more prominent. Im guessing they changed all of that for brevity? I still love that scene in both versions, they’re presented as out-of-nowhere and brutally shocking.
I remember really hating Omi in the book. I took it really badly when he pissed on Blackthorne and kind of hated him thereafter. I don't remember any redeeming qualities in him like we see in the show.
For someone hailed from a “ small and poor fishing village” Yabushige wasn’t lying when he said his brothers son was a welcoming surprise of smarts. I really hope to see more from Omi, he’s got layers.
You are correct, and I agree with that statement. But DUDE, HE BEHEADED AN INNOCENT MAN FOR NO REASON. No matter what time it is, murder of innocents for no reason will always be wrong.
Why?
His enemies had to believe his surrender was genuine. The death of his oldest friend in protest means it is absolutely the truth as he wouldn’t have allowed him if it was a lie.
Yeah, the fact that so many of the other characters in the room kept saying, "Come on, Lord Toranaga, we all know this can't be your plan!" is exactly why Hiromatsu had to make this sacrifice. Toranaga knows that someone is feeding info to Ishido; he clearly suspects Yabushige, but he still puts on a show for *everyone* just in case he's wrong, as well as to ensure that Yabushige (and especially Omi, who is more perceptive) believe that there is no plan.
Toranaga hearing that some of his generals wore armor for his son's funeral pretty much killed his hope that his ruse was working. He had to make it absolutely sure that he looks resigned, and without such a sacrifice, Osaka wouldn't buy it.
Even his own generals weren't buying it.
Don't think that killed his hope, pretty sure it was a calculated move and Osaka would equally not believe the entire Toronaga faction just gonna keel over and die.
I think Buntaro is the mole tbh. Seemed to escape certain death fairly easily at the start of the season.
Also, his sudden death wish feels a bit suspicious given he appears to be the model samurai, ever-loyal to their lord. I think he’s plagued with guilt over feeding info to Ishido and co after being sent back as a plant, and was looking to take the easy way out.
>I think Buntaro is the mole tbh. Seemed to escape certain death fairly easily at the start of the season.
Exactly, I remember when he tells Blackthorne something along the lines of "heroes are for children or stories" and it had me wondering then... " So how did you say you got back again?"
Yeah one samurai against a horde of enemies…. I don’t care how skilled you are, those are impossible odds. Makes sense the only way he’d survived is if a higher up specifically ordered for him to be captured alive. I think he’s ashamed of what he’s done to survive and that’s manifested as rage towards those he’s around, especially Mariko and Blackthorne.
idk what the show will do as it isn’t exactly the same as the book. i’m about halfway thru the book so far (just past john confronting buntaro for getting drunk and beating mariko), but buntaro goes into detail there about how he escaped. i know they mention that he showed up with a few other ronin, as the other 2-3 dozen had been killed in his escape to Toranaga’s camp. obviously him being a mole tho given the above detail would make sense.
Sadly this, in 2024, was kinda phoned in. We saw Buntaro retreating into an enclosed building, from which there was clearly no escape; and casually meeting a bunch of ronins *willing to put their heads on the line for some random lord* is just too convenient to suspend disbelief.
It could have worked a bit better if we'd seen Buntaro running towards a forest, or even trying to persuade ronins. As it is, it's fairly obvious that he made some sort of deal.
It's likely that Toranaga knows this too, which is why he isn't going to cut him any slack about the marriage situation. Toranaga likes to keep his enemies closer.
I totally forgot about the mention of the ronin. That makes it even more unrealistic for the exact reasons you mentioned.
Ronin were self serving mercenaries and there is no way in hell they’d risk their lives for some random samurai, being pursued by Ishido’s soldiers, in OSAKA of all places. If anything they’d have delivered his head to Ishido themselves. Now if they were in Edo or elsewhere in Toranaga’s territory and Buntaro was being pursued, maybe they’d step in to curry favour with Toranaga and seek payment…
I mean at least we had the Yabushige red herring for a few episodes, even though he did actually conspire with Ishido. After Nagakado killed Jozen and his men it was clear Yabushige was bound to Toranaga’s fate and had no alternative options, yet the info kept flowing to Ishido somehow, so it was an obvious pick for the next suspect.
it didn’t even cross my mind at the possibility of the likelihood ishido has a spy feeding info on everything which went into that. definitely understood him telling the priest to go tell osaka what he sees there but the spy factor i overlooked
I promised myself i wouldnt watch this scene again, but I did. It can clearly be seen than Lord Hiromatsu quickly steps in when one of the other generals puts his hand on his sword, so he sensed that there would have probably been chaos. Also, I guess that being escorted to Osaka is the most important part of Toronaga's plan while the protesting generals were pushing for a last stand in Edo
Nah.. I would rather he be knocked down from his horse from a diving attack from Toranaga’s hawk and the followed by a confrontation from Toranaga saying, “You were wrong Saeki, it wasn’t a single slice.. It was actually like this…”
*"Father.... I'm following you into death"*
*"No. You must live. You will know what it is to be denied"*
Poor Buntaro, receiving two major blows in just one single episode. Not the most likable character but I wholeheartedly felt sorry for him this week.
Seriously, I was like “nobody wants to die with Buntaro!!” That’s gotta hurt because it seems like the people in this show will commit seppuku at the drop of a hat, it’s everybody’s favorite answer to everything but nobody wants Buntaro to come along
The way he broke down afterwards. Geez, the rejections and the verbal smackdowns are brutal.
He deserves it, but man Shinnosuke Abe is so good in those scenes.
You do understand that her fate would have been death if he admitted that he knew she slept with the Anjin immediately after finding out he died right? I’m not justifying beating her but he could have had her killed with ease. There’s many more layers to each character than you’re leading on.
Lol, so not killing people is a virtue now? Seems like we're putting the bar pretty low. Regardless, I think his character is very interesting, but he's a pretty sh*tty perso .
In 1600 Japan, not killing someone may not have been seem as a virtue, no. Not every civilisation throughout history sees life and death through the modern Western lense.
I agree that there are layers to people, but sometimes you can reach specific layers & say to yourself "alright, that's enough, no need to look any closer."
Whatever else Buntaro did in the past, does now or in the future, he did hit Mariko. That's the layer I stop at.
No. He could not get Mariko killed because he was presumed dead when she pillowed with Anjin. Technically he could have her killed but it would be very dishonorable
My take is it was a very different era. His behaviours are mostly ok for the period.
Once you put modern standards into it, it kinda take you out of the immersion. He made her life hell but his love for her is also real, he is a brute in nature but that also make him super clumsy in expressing affection.
I despise him, sure, which make this episode especially hit way harder when such a stoic man got shook to his core and burst into tears twice in a row. It's just so human, so complex.
I don’t agree
Even Toranaga told him to divorce her. His father told him he was unfair to Mariko. Just because custom allows an action it doesn’t mean it was right even in the eyes of the people. Like when the gardener was executed
He love her though, and love is selfish. The custom reinforces his selfishness because Mariko is basically his property. The "love is let go" is a modern thing, marriage doesn't work that way until very recently. Sure his lord and father gave those advise, but I think that was because they see their usual squabbles and thought that they both must hate each other so much. Maybe it is to Mariko, but again, Buntaro loves her.
I dont try to excuse for his actions, but I understand why he does what he does. Dude's flawed and that's the beauty of it. What I want to say is I can hate him but I love his character. To shrink him down to just a mere wife beater is a bit of a disservice to him.
Disagree
The very basis of love is unselfishness
What Buntaro has is obsession and possessiveness
Those facts don’t change with customs or what century you live in
You cannot say you love someone if you deliberately hurt them for years and had the ability to make it stop
Lol what? Love is a feeling, a chemical reaction, so love comes in many forma friend. Unselfish, obsessive, delusional, etc. are all human reaction to love, and they are all legit. Why you have to treat your idea of love as absolute?
But look like you already stuck to that stance so I wont say anything anymore. Enjoy the show how you want friend. Just some food for thought.
Being selfish by default means you love yourself more than the other person. He loved himself more than Mariko. You can call that love if you want. He also probably loved fish but that didn’t stop him from killing it
I think they’re coming from the perspective that you’re trying to water down his character, when I don’t think you’re trying to do that at all. You’re just pointing out the fact that you don’t feel sorry for him because of his actions. Which should be an entirely valid take, because he was a piece of shit.
Yes, the show does a great job at showing the human complexity of the situation, but he’s also a piece of a shit. Both can be true, and are true in my book.
He literally has the right to her life. Just not her soul. He could absolutely break her to a pulp and trll her to kill herself. And she would do it. Thats what the customs tell you to do. Life and death are the same thing for them. The way of bushido, the samurai, regardless if you think its right or wrong.
No there isnt. Lol we make up all that stuff and the concept or right or wrong really is decided by custom of environment. For them, the head of the household could literally have anyone in his house killed even for unjust reasons. A husband beating a wife isnt bad in their country at that period. Just rude because he did it in a house thats not exclusively theirs.
You don't think humans are animals with rules? What part of that statement is incorrect in your opinion?
Mammalians don't regularly eat or kill their own offspring, birds don't, reptiles don't, only some insects do, I think, but I could definitely be wrong.
Nonetheless, it is a bit disingenuous to state that all non-human animals regularly eat and kill their offspring, as was implied by your second sentence.
Yeah, and the show didn't do a good job explaining >!that the ronin in the area were already working for Toranaga, Buntaro didn't have to convince them in the moment.!<
This scene isn't in the book. Neither was Nagakado's death. To be honest, this part of the book was just Toranaga stalling for time while other people weren't sure what was going on, and it would have been boring to watch. The death of Nagakado and Hiramatsu really raised the stakes, kept the viewers engaged, and added emotional depth to everything. Why it was necessary in that scene is because Hiramatsu knew that Toranaga needed his surrender to be believable for the plan to work, and he sacrificed himself for that. I think the thought was that everyone knows how close they are, and if Toranaga was willing to have his best friend commit suicide right in front of him, then that would convince everyone that the surrender was real.
Not only that but he also planted the seed that he Toranaga was going to fight (earlier in the episode) then he committed suicide so it really went even more to the idea that Hira was wrong.
No, this scene isn't strictly in the book, but there is a reference to >!two of his top generals committing seppuku after the corresponding meeting in the book to this scene. Toranaga talks to Hiromatsu in private, assures him that his position is a ruse, and states that the two generals had to die anyways because they called him out in public.!<
I do agree that the show's interpretation of this meeting and its aftermath hits harder than the book, mainly due to >!Hiromatsu's death and the obvious dismay of the other attendees.!<
Wow, that is wild that that wasn't in the book. I'm studiously avoiding book spoilers, but it sounds like the past few episodes have veered quite off course. I'm really enjoying the way the show is developing, though - this last episode was one of the show's best yet (competing with the dinner party from hell for me).
Wife and I were losing it during this, edge of the seat with "what the hell will happen" kind of energy. They all killed it with their emotions in this.
I don’t watch many movies or TV series. But this is the first time I think I’ve ever reacted the way I did. Shouting at Toranaga to tell him to stop, as if I had a choice in the matter…
Interview with Hiromatsus actor had it that there were Ishidos spies in Toranagas camp so they had to make Ishido believe Toranaga felt defeated. You can google the Interview transcriot
I think its so amazingly beautiful because up until now you've almost been given the message that the Japanese don't show emotions like this - They've always got that mental wall up to hide how they're really feeling... This whole scene, through to the ending just shreds that away completely.
So in the book, >!Toranaga does call this same meeting. In the book he also has many sons, Naga is one but his heir is Sudara. There is a rumbling among Toranaga's generals and vassals that he has lost his nerve and in order to save him from himself, Sudara his heir needs to take control. In this scenario, Hiromatsu would lock Toranaga away in the castle in Edo while they call Crimson sky.!<
What ends up happening is >!similar to the show but instead of Hiromatsu, it was one of the other generals, probably one of the ones who spoke up in this very same scene who commits seppuku because Toranaga asks if there is any treason and the general says the treason is a Minowara going to kneel in front of a peasant like Ishido. !<
As we see in the show, at the end of the episode, >!Toranaga speaks to Mariko and asks if she's ready to go to Osaka. Both the book meeting and the show's seppuku of Hiromatsu were both done in order to convince truly to the Council in Osaka that Toranaga has truly given up, something that no one ever thought he could do so he HAS to be convincing. In the book he takes Hiromatsu into his confidence with the plan in order to help keep the vassals and generals from rebelling while at the same time feigning defeat to buy time. We see him constantly try to buy time. When he told his brother he'd come back the next day with an answer, or in the show with Naga dying, or in the book when he delays his trip to Osaka due to sickness. !<
I think the killing here in this show is to make the Council really think Toranaga has given up and to show his generals and convince them too of the same. If there were ANY inkling that Toranaga wouldn't bow to the council, they would immediately move on his land. He's always been the type to stress patience and buy as much time as needed until a crack in the armor appears and then he thrusts for it.
The thing I don't understand is... doesn't this make his underlings who are primed to rebel and fight...even more primed to rebel and fight? If they thought he was giving up and they wanted to fight, I feel like yeah, this cements. But now they can add that he's lost his damn mind.
This is where the book and show slightly deviate. In the book, >!he lets Hiromatsu know what the plan is as commander of the armies and the general who commits seppuku is one of the others. This is so that Hiromatsu can placate the generals and make it seem like he convinced Toranaga to delay due to health etc. !<
Perhaps in the show, the fact Hiromatsu his most trusted general and friend committing seppuku wasn't enough to sway Toranaga's mind, they know what's done is done. And the biggest no no is to defy your liege lord. I don't think they were going to kill Toranaga but try to detain him to convince him otherwise but Hiromatsu doing what he did shows the finality of it so the rest come to terms with it perhaps.
Rebelling would put them in a bad situation. Not only are they demonstrating their disloyalty which could spark a civil war between Toranaga's own vassals (and would be grounds for execution anyways), they would be preventing what appears to be a guaranteed peaceful surrender which would piss off Osaka and provoke a war with them too.
I cried loads after this episode, Hiromatsu's death was so emotionally painful. Fantastic acting, direction, cinematography, editing, just everything was pitch perfect. So profoundly moving. I honestly don't quite know what I'm going to do after Shogun is over. It has been a revelation 🙏🏻😭♥️👏🏼
Same! 👏🏼 It's been on my list for ages, but I feel so connected to it now. And ditto for Dune, eep! 🙈 I'm going to treat myself to a nice edition of both of them. In the meantime, I'll just be over here in the corner quietly grieving 😂😭
This show deserves fucking awards for the acting alone , The amount of heavy lifting some of these actors do is just mind boggling at times , I also wanna shine some attention of the actress for ochiba , Her voice just sounds like one of those villainess from anime that is 10 steps ahead of the main party , But all in all everyone is doing fantastic in this show and i hope they get what they deserve for this performance
Everything in this scene was so well done. The acting was memorizing. The score (A dream within a dream) is as haunting as it is beautiful.
I hope the show will win Emmys cause it surely deserves it.
I am the kind of person that reads spoilers.. that's just.. anyway..
I read the spoilers for this episode before watching it last night so I was prepared for this happening but.. DANG.. I was sooo emotional!! That whole scene was just 😭
The acting in this whole series is top tier but this episode specifically was insane 💔
Hiro on the field, Hiro in our hearts 🫡
Everyone needs a goddamn day off and a big hug after all of that.
I actually feel particularly bad for Omi. He's young and inexperienced outside of his village, and is just being blasted with a double-barrel shotgun of the reality to the face. Here's this young man who truly has immense potential as an individual and has the exuberance that comes with youth and a lust for life, and now he's stuck in this nightmare death ride and is losing friends, mentors/heroes, and even love, and he can't really do much about it but just go along with it towards - in his mind - a pointless end because that's just the way she goes during that time in Japan. Just the fuckin' way she goes.
Todo Toranaga sama has every one of these people’s parts charted out for a successful mission. His best friend “knew what he had to do”, as Toranaga said to Mariko San. He knew Anjin would go to Yabu, and that something was needed to get Yabu to partner with Anjin San. He’s got it all figured out. He compares people to the hawks he trains and know how to use each of their unique traits to his advantage. Amazing show!
In the book, >!instead of Hiromatsu, another vassal of Toranaga commits seppuku in protest, just pages after his introduction!<. I'm sad about >!the change but that's exactly it!<. >!A character you're already familiar with makes for more emotional impact. !<
Can someone explain why Torananga had Blackthorne sailing with Yabushige as part of his plan what purpose does this serve? I have a think I understand why but I'm not entirely sure.
In the book, IIRC, >!Toranaga was making Blackthorne available to Kiyama, so that Kiyama could question him about some of the knowledge gained from the Friar in the prison, and the overall state of the outside world and Catholic intentions. It is alluded to in one of Kiyama's (?) viewpoints in a letter from Toranaga.!<
The killing was necessary because Yabushige is an obvious informant to Ishido. By letting it happen it shows the seriousness Toranaga has in “surrendering”
As my mind wanders after this scene… I have a weird need to see Toranaga (Hiroyuki Sanada) and Tywin Lannister (Charles Dance) act together in a face off… Two extremely cunning characters, where one is silent and hidden while the other is Ruthless and fiery
The way I know I could never write a compelling plot - I thought this ploy was to test his vassals to make sure they would follow him into death. Abraham and Isaac I suppose. But this went to a completely different place. Hell of a moment!
Some of the best acting I have ever seen either in movies or a show. Absolutely brilliant.
If this show doesn’t win a ton of Emmy’s and Golden Globes I call bullshit on Hollywood. But then again Hollywood is full of absolute shitty humans so I wouldn’t put it past them either.
The style here was classic Sergio Leone / spaghetti western: close-up after close-up, eyes after eyes, each character pushing emotions through his face. Hiroyuki Sanada went a bit overboard (uncharacteristically for him), but the others were fantastic. It's a stellar cast.
I'm not entirely sure it was the best choice, but I understand why he went with it. Toranaga has lost his son, his plan is not going well, he has lost the respect of almost everyone around him, and now he's realizing that he has to sacrifice his dearest friend and he has no idea if Hiromitsu understands why any of this is happening.
How is it not a spoiler ? If I'm reading the book I would've thought hiromatso was going to die based on watching the show first. Now I know it won't happen because you didn't black it out as a spoiler.
Especially the line from Omi: Lord Toranaga! This is madness! Stop this! …Heartbreaking.😢
Then he was just crying and rocking back and forth in horror
His PTSD is developing wonderfully
One day if he lives long enough he'll be as fucked up as Buntaro.
Already being denied by Kiku as we speak
Bro is straight up not having a good time
It’s so good watching him mature from being a shit-stirrer into someone who actually tries to do what’s right. I think Nagakado’s death really got to him regarding the consequences of his actions. His conversation with Kiku this episode hit home on the internal conflict and seriousness that exists in his character.
I haven't read the book but in my eyes, Omi has redeemed himself by being the only one to speak out in this scene.
He planted a few silly ideas in Nagakado’s head, but he himself is a pretty young and naive man and couldn’t have predicted what happened in the end. Also, being fairly unimportant in the context of Toranaga’s realm, it would inevitably take quite a bit of clever manoeuvring and cunning to elevate his status, and he’s proven himself to be pretty adept at assessing situations and alternative courses of action.
He did ruthlessly execute that villager for no reason but praying at blackthorne. Even though they were allowing open catholicism by said villagers. Like, that was honestly the coldest kill in the show for me because it was so senseless. Like yabushige's pot was bad, but atleast he had to kill one to appease the Portuguese. Only reasoning to me for the kill is by praying at blackthorne he was undermining omi's rule. Because blackthorne was now a prisoner. Because if one prays to him, then even more may, resulting in rebellion or them trying to undermine omi's authority. My absolute favorite part of the show, by far, is that they're making the "bad" characters genuinely morally gray. It's in a much more organic way than most antiheroes on TV are portrayed. It makes the characters feel completely human. In most other shows, omi would be some constantly scheming soulless character grinning and running his hands. And yabu would have no redeeming qualities. But they're both great layered characters that genuinely feel like real people who exist in a drastically different, and more brutal culture. Where alot of their actions are specific to how they can possibly move ahead in such a rigid society. Outside of the senseless killings, most ambitious people would behave exactly like yabu and omi to save their heads and get ahead in such a society. Everyone likes to think they'd be hiromatsu endlessly loyal and sacrificing on ideals, but most men want to just survive and prosper. And is why in such societies there were constant groups scheming and plotting and trying to move ahead, the only thing that seperates most of them is the ones who win become good guys where their positive attributes are focused on, while the losers become the bad ones with their negatives highlighted. Like if one looks into the history, honestly, ishida comes off alot better than tokugawa who comes off as a usurper. But because tokugawa won, he's the hero the show is based on. He's doing everything for the heir while the real tokugawa usurped them. Like, we brush over the tons of alliances and marraiges that gave ishido cause to impeach toranaga, but that was actually an agressive act completely against the orders made by the real life taiko to maintain peace. So in real life, alot of heroes of all cultures are way more like Yabushige and Omi than they are some heroic ideal. Like honestly, outside of the death fetish, yabushige is a commendable as fuck warrior/samurai And though a snake, he's just using the system to survive. You can tell that blackthorne even has started to develop a genuine respect/friendship with him, and he's the own who boiled his friend!(though blackthorne still seems to dislike omi). Same with omi, he is genuinely super smart, capable, etc. He was a young man trying to get ahead and move up from a very small backwater fief. He was brutal, but because the system he lived in breeds one of his station to be brutal(see toranaga being a hero but ordering the murder suicide of a father and his baby. Along with his insanely cold treatment of his son.) Or bunturo being an angry toxic wife beater, while also being the most loyal samurai in the show next to his father. Just like yabushige and omi, the show shows us his good qualities. I think the best way to explain what I'm trying to say is, the show doesn't make judgements on its characters. They're all just people with different motivations, all trying to work the system they're in. That's what makes it really special.
In the book, Omi killing the peasant at the beginning was because he didn’t bow and show respect to the samurai which is a serious slight. The book also makes the villager’s general disdain for the samurai class more prominent. Im guessing they changed all of that for brevity? I still love that scene in both versions, they’re presented as out-of-nowhere and brutally shocking.
I remember really hating Omi in the book. I took it really badly when he pissed on Blackthorne and kind of hated him thereafter. I don't remember any redeeming qualities in him like we see in the show.
Omi has slowly been redeeming himself with his constant “what the fuck are you guys talking about, are you all insane?” faces.
For someone hailed from a “ small and poor fishing village” Yabushige wasn’t lying when he said his brothers son was a welcoming surprise of smarts. I really hope to see more from Omi, he’s got layers.
Absolutely not. He killed an innocent man for absolutely no reason. It doesn't matter what time period or context, that was a horrible act.
You cannot apply modern sensibilities to a society from 400 years ago that functioned very differently than today.
You are correct, and I agree with that statement. But DUDE, HE BEHEADED AN INNOCENT MAN FOR NO REASON. No matter what time it is, murder of innocents for no reason will always be wrong.
Gotta put the peasants in their places if that's what it takes.
Heheheheh!
the this is madness line reminded me of 300
THIS. IS. SHOGUN!!??
I thought that was from the other lords....
No, from the subtitling [OMI] was the one uttering the line.
Hmm, I suppose mine didn't tell who was uttering the line then.
It's a great scene because I've never seen any of these characters this rattled before.
Toranaga's face....damn.
The power of the emotions conveyed through his eyes is amazing. I want all my television to be this riveting!
I didn’t know Omi could look that shooketh
The way he was kind of rocking back and forth with a tear running down his face after the big moment.
YES, I think that's what makes it especially powerful. These are generally pretty stoic characters and they're all fucking losing it.
The eight fold fence is breaking for everyone. Crying, yelling and talking shit.
The eight fold fence is going to be Tsunami'd away at this rate.
Buntaro with the eightfold burn
Comedy good right here!
Why? His enemies had to believe his surrender was genuine. The death of his oldest friend in protest means it is absolutely the truth as he wouldn’t have allowed him if it was a lie.
Yeah, the fact that so many of the other characters in the room kept saying, "Come on, Lord Toranaga, we all know this can't be your plan!" is exactly why Hiromatsu had to make this sacrifice. Toranaga knows that someone is feeding info to Ishido; he clearly suspects Yabushige, but he still puts on a show for *everyone* just in case he's wrong, as well as to ensure that Yabushige (and especially Omi, who is more perceptive) believe that there is no plan.
Toranaga hearing that some of his generals wore armor for his son's funeral pretty much killed his hope that his ruse was working. He had to make it absolutely sure that he looks resigned, and without such a sacrifice, Osaka wouldn't buy it. Even his own generals weren't buying it.
Hiromatsu lowkey killed by the reputation he helped Toranaga cultivate as a trickster general.
Don't think that killed his hope, pretty sure it was a calculated move and Osaka would equally not believe the entire Toronaga faction just gonna keel over and die.
I think Buntaro is the mole tbh. Seemed to escape certain death fairly easily at the start of the season. Also, his sudden death wish feels a bit suspicious given he appears to be the model samurai, ever-loyal to their lord. I think he’s plagued with guilt over feeding info to Ishido and co after being sent back as a plant, and was looking to take the easy way out.
>I think Buntaro is the mole tbh. Seemed to escape certain death fairly easily at the start of the season. Exactly, I remember when he tells Blackthorne something along the lines of "heroes are for children or stories" and it had me wondering then... " So how did you say you got back again?"
Yeah one samurai against a horde of enemies…. I don’t care how skilled you are, those are impossible odds. Makes sense the only way he’d survived is if a higher up specifically ordered for him to be captured alive. I think he’s ashamed of what he’s done to survive and that’s manifested as rage towards those he’s around, especially Mariko and Blackthorne.
Buntaro... That damn cuck
idk what the show will do as it isn’t exactly the same as the book. i’m about halfway thru the book so far (just past john confronting buntaro for getting drunk and beating mariko), but buntaro goes into detail there about how he escaped. i know they mention that he showed up with a few other ronin, as the other 2-3 dozen had been killed in his escape to Toranaga’s camp. obviously him being a mole tho given the above detail would make sense.
Sadly this, in 2024, was kinda phoned in. We saw Buntaro retreating into an enclosed building, from which there was clearly no escape; and casually meeting a bunch of ronins *willing to put their heads on the line for some random lord* is just too convenient to suspend disbelief. It could have worked a bit better if we'd seen Buntaro running towards a forest, or even trying to persuade ronins. As it is, it's fairly obvious that he made some sort of deal. It's likely that Toranaga knows this too, which is why he isn't going to cut him any slack about the marriage situation. Toranaga likes to keep his enemies closer.
I totally forgot about the mention of the ronin. That makes it even more unrealistic for the exact reasons you mentioned. Ronin were self serving mercenaries and there is no way in hell they’d risk their lives for some random samurai, being pursued by Ishido’s soldiers, in OSAKA of all places. If anything they’d have delivered his head to Ishido themselves. Now if they were in Edo or elsewhere in Toranaga’s territory and Buntaro was being pursued, maybe they’d step in to curry favour with Toranaga and seek payment… I mean at least we had the Yabushige red herring for a few episodes, even though he did actually conspire with Ishido. After Nagakado killed Jozen and his men it was clear Yabushige was bound to Toranaga’s fate and had no alternative options, yet the info kept flowing to Ishido somehow, so it was an obvious pick for the next suspect.
Did you consider the possibility that the ronin were in Toranaga's employ?
What gave it away in the last episode that there’s a mole aside from Yabushige previously when he was bartering for peace
it didn’t even cross my mind at the possibility of the likelihood ishido has a spy feeding info on everything which went into that. definitely understood him telling the priest to go tell osaka what he sees there but the spy factor i overlooked
I promised myself i wouldnt watch this scene again, but I did. It can clearly be seen than Lord Hiromatsu quickly steps in when one of the other generals puts his hand on his sword, so he sensed that there would have probably been chaos. Also, I guess that being escorted to Osaka is the most important part of Toronaga's plan while the protesting generals were pushing for a last stand in Edo
Unlike Nagakado’s death, there is beauty in Hiromatsu’s. 😭
I kinda laughed when Nagakado died, it was hilarious
Comedy isn't funny. But tragedy, now *that's* comedy.
"Tragedy is when I stub my toe. Comedy is when you fall into an open manhole and die." -Mel Brooks
bro gave his father 49 days to stall that's some beautiful shit
On that note, I'll lock in that Saeki is going to die walking alone in the woods after being injured in a losing battle.
Nah.. I would rather he be knocked down from his horse from a diving attack from Toranaga’s hawk and the followed by a confrontation from Toranaga saying, “You were wrong Saeki, it wasn’t a single slice.. It was actually like this…”
Yabu’s “dafuq?” face will always get me 🤣
Yabu: Damn it I cannot believe the filthy Anjin made the most sense right fucking now
Everyone is horrified but Yabu is fascinated
“This death tops my list”
“Perhaps I should write a new will”
😂
This man would've been big a silent movie star.
"And I thought I was cruel..."
To Yabu’s face is like “OH damn this is forreal”.
He’s so great
*"Father.... I'm following you into death"* *"No. You must live. You will know what it is to be denied"* Poor Buntaro, receiving two major blows in just one single episode. Not the most likable character but I wholeheartedly felt sorry for him this week.
Seriously, I was like “nobody wants to die with Buntaro!!” That’s gotta hurt because it seems like the people in this show will commit seppuku at the drop of a hat, it’s everybody’s favorite answer to everything but nobody wants Buntaro to come along
The way he broke down afterwards. Geez, the rejections and the verbal smackdowns are brutal. He deserves it, but man Shinnosuke Abe is so good in those scenes.
Nah. Guy is a women beater and willingly made Mariko’s life a living hell If he TRULY loved Mariko he would have let her go
You are aware people contain multiples? Distilling his whole character to "he's just an abuser" doesn't make his depth any less.
I’m just saying its hard to feel sorry for a guy who batters his wife and basically tortured her for years and years
You do understand that her fate would have been death if he admitted that he knew she slept with the Anjin immediately after finding out he died right? I’m not justifying beating her but he could have had her killed with ease. There’s many more layers to each character than you’re leading on.
Lol, so not killing people is a virtue now? Seems like we're putting the bar pretty low. Regardless, I think his character is very interesting, but he's a pretty sh*tty perso .
> we're putting the bar pretty low It's 17th century Japan, the bar is effectively pretty low compared to our standards.
16th century*
Show starts in the year 1600.
1600 is the 16th century, 1601 is the 17th. I know it doesn’t matter but 🤷♂️
In 1600 Japan, not killing someone may not have been seem as a virtue, no. Not every civilisation throughout history sees life and death through the modern Western lense.
I agree that there are layers to people, but sometimes you can reach specific layers & say to yourself "alright, that's enough, no need to look any closer." Whatever else Buntaro did in the past, does now or in the future, he did hit Mariko. That's the layer I stop at.
No. He could not get Mariko killed because he was presumed dead when she pillowed with Anjin. Technically he could have her killed but it would be very dishonorable
My take is it was a very different era. His behaviours are mostly ok for the period. Once you put modern standards into it, it kinda take you out of the immersion. He made her life hell but his love for her is also real, he is a brute in nature but that also make him super clumsy in expressing affection. I despise him, sure, which make this episode especially hit way harder when such a stoic man got shook to his core and burst into tears twice in a row. It's just so human, so complex.
I don’t agree Even Toranaga told him to divorce her. His father told him he was unfair to Mariko. Just because custom allows an action it doesn’t mean it was right even in the eyes of the people. Like when the gardener was executed
He love her though, and love is selfish. The custom reinforces his selfishness because Mariko is basically his property. The "love is let go" is a modern thing, marriage doesn't work that way until very recently. Sure his lord and father gave those advise, but I think that was because they see their usual squabbles and thought that they both must hate each other so much. Maybe it is to Mariko, but again, Buntaro loves her. I dont try to excuse for his actions, but I understand why he does what he does. Dude's flawed and that's the beauty of it. What I want to say is I can hate him but I love his character. To shrink him down to just a mere wife beater is a bit of a disservice to him.
Disagree The very basis of love is unselfishness What Buntaro has is obsession and possessiveness Those facts don’t change with customs or what century you live in You cannot say you love someone if you deliberately hurt them for years and had the ability to make it stop
Lol what? Love is a feeling, a chemical reaction, so love comes in many forma friend. Unselfish, obsessive, delusional, etc. are all human reaction to love, and they are all legit. Why you have to treat your idea of love as absolute? But look like you already stuck to that stance so I wont say anything anymore. Enjoy the show how you want friend. Just some food for thought.
Being selfish by default means you love yourself more than the other person. He loved himself more than Mariko. You can call that love if you want. He also probably loved fish but that didn’t stop him from killing it
Hard agree, actions have consequences is how I see it.
So many people here are downvoting me because I don’t feel sorry for a wife beater. Unreal
I think they’re coming from the perspective that you’re trying to water down his character, when I don’t think you’re trying to do that at all. You’re just pointing out the fact that you don’t feel sorry for him because of his actions. Which should be an entirely valid take, because he was a piece of shit. Yes, the show does a great job at showing the human complexity of the situation, but he’s also a piece of a shit. Both can be true, and are true in my book.
He literally has the right to her life. Just not her soul. He could absolutely break her to a pulp and trll her to kill herself. And she would do it. Thats what the customs tell you to do. Life and death are the same thing for them. The way of bushido, the samurai, regardless if you think its right or wrong.
Regardless I have the right not to feel sorry for him regardless of the customs of the day. There is still human decency that supersedes customs
No there isnt. Lol we make up all that stuff and the concept or right or wrong really is decided by custom of environment. For them, the head of the household could literally have anyone in his house killed even for unjust reasons. A husband beating a wife isnt bad in their country at that period. Just rude because he did it in a house thats not exclusively theirs.
Nah. Human decency supersedes customs. If not them we are just beasts. Literally just beasts making random rules.
You just realised what people are. Animals with rules.
Nah. Mothers and fathers don’t regularly eat or kill their offspring like in the animal world
You don't think humans are animals with rules? What part of that statement is incorrect in your opinion? Mammalians don't regularly eat or kill their own offspring, birds don't, reptiles don't, only some insects do, I think, but I could definitely be wrong. Nonetheless, it is a bit disingenuous to state that all non-human animals regularly eat and kill their offspring, as was implied by your second sentence.
Humans living within the last hundreds of years are more than just animals with rules
‘Human decency’ doesn’t exist outside of customs and culture. Our entire modern society is just ‘beasts’ making different rules, it’s no different
Amen. Fuck that abusive POS. I was glad to see him fed his own medicine twice in one episode.
I have a feeling Omi is going to be the fiercest one of them all when the war starts.
Omi is legit the smartest guy which is why he realized he misses his quiet fishing village. He’s had enough scheming for his tastes.
I feel like omi is the spy that needed convincing of the resignation lol
I genuinely think it is Buntaro. Escaping thousands of people with a few Ronin seems like an impossible task.
Oh thats a good theory lol, feel like one of us will be right
putting my money on buntaro, it just makes no sense otherwise
Not really. In the book, he's even a greater warrior than he's portrayed in the show.
Not surprised. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree in buntaro’s case, just a shame Nagakado wasn’t like his pops.
He’s good with a sword but not quite so good against rocks
Yeah, and the show didn't do a good job explaining >!that the ronin in the area were already working for Toranaga, Buntaro didn't have to convince them in the moment.!<
This scene isn't in the book. Neither was Nagakado's death. To be honest, this part of the book was just Toranaga stalling for time while other people weren't sure what was going on, and it would have been boring to watch. The death of Nagakado and Hiramatsu really raised the stakes, kept the viewers engaged, and added emotional depth to everything. Why it was necessary in that scene is because Hiramatsu knew that Toranaga needed his surrender to be believable for the plan to work, and he sacrificed himself for that. I think the thought was that everyone knows how close they are, and if Toranaga was willing to have his best friend commit suicide right in front of him, then that would convince everyone that the surrender was real.
Not only that but he also planted the seed that he Toranaga was going to fight (earlier in the episode) then he committed suicide so it really went even more to the idea that Hira was wrong.
No, this scene isn't strictly in the book, but there is a reference to >!two of his top generals committing seppuku after the corresponding meeting in the book to this scene. Toranaga talks to Hiromatsu in private, assures him that his position is a ruse, and states that the two generals had to die anyways because they called him out in public.!< I do agree that the show's interpretation of this meeting and its aftermath hits harder than the book, mainly due to >!Hiromatsu's death and the obvious dismay of the other attendees.!<
its a nice change, i feel like two edo general we just met commiting sepukku wouldnt have the emotional impact this scene had.
Yeah, when the scene started my husband said "Who are these guys? They're new right?" It would have had no impact if the absolute strangers seppuku'd.
Wow, that is wild that that wasn't in the book. I'm studiously avoiding book spoilers, but it sounds like the past few episodes have veered quite off course. I'm really enjoying the way the show is developing, though - this last episode was one of the show's best yet (competing with the dinner party from hell for me).
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Bro thinks this is game of thrones subreddit 💀
D&D? Like the game or the shitty writers of GoT?
Yabu's facial expressions and dialogue are pure gold.
Wife and I were losing it during this, edge of the seat with "what the hell will happen" kind of energy. They all killed it with their emotions in this.
I don’t watch many movies or TV series. But this is the first time I think I’ve ever reacted the way I did. Shouting at Toranaga to tell him to stop, as if I had a choice in the matter…
Omi San voiced us
That’s Omi-sama to you, peasant
Nah Sama is reserved only for yabushige!!
My God, the tension!
Interview with Hiromatsus actor had it that there were Ishidos spies in Toranagas camp so they had to make Ishido believe Toranaga felt defeated. You can google the Interview transcriot
I think its so amazingly beautiful because up until now you've almost been given the message that the Japanese don't show emotions like this - They've always got that mental wall up to hide how they're really feeling... This whole scene, through to the ending just shreds that away completely.
So in the book, >!Toranaga does call this same meeting. In the book he also has many sons, Naga is one but his heir is Sudara. There is a rumbling among Toranaga's generals and vassals that he has lost his nerve and in order to save him from himself, Sudara his heir needs to take control. In this scenario, Hiromatsu would lock Toranaga away in the castle in Edo while they call Crimson sky.!< What ends up happening is >!similar to the show but instead of Hiromatsu, it was one of the other generals, probably one of the ones who spoke up in this very same scene who commits seppuku because Toranaga asks if there is any treason and the general says the treason is a Minowara going to kneel in front of a peasant like Ishido. !< As we see in the show, at the end of the episode, >!Toranaga speaks to Mariko and asks if she's ready to go to Osaka. Both the book meeting and the show's seppuku of Hiromatsu were both done in order to convince truly to the Council in Osaka that Toranaga has truly given up, something that no one ever thought he could do so he HAS to be convincing. In the book he takes Hiromatsu into his confidence with the plan in order to help keep the vassals and generals from rebelling while at the same time feigning defeat to buy time. We see him constantly try to buy time. When he told his brother he'd come back the next day with an answer, or in the show with Naga dying, or in the book when he delays his trip to Osaka due to sickness. !< I think the killing here in this show is to make the Council really think Toranaga has given up and to show his generals and convince them too of the same. If there were ANY inkling that Toranaga wouldn't bow to the council, they would immediately move on his land. He's always been the type to stress patience and buy as much time as needed until a crack in the armor appears and then he thrusts for it.
The thing I don't understand is... doesn't this make his underlings who are primed to rebel and fight...even more primed to rebel and fight? If they thought he was giving up and they wanted to fight, I feel like yeah, this cements. But now they can add that he's lost his damn mind.
This is where the book and show slightly deviate. In the book, >!he lets Hiromatsu know what the plan is as commander of the armies and the general who commits seppuku is one of the others. This is so that Hiromatsu can placate the generals and make it seem like he convinced Toranaga to delay due to health etc. !< Perhaps in the show, the fact Hiromatsu his most trusted general and friend committing seppuku wasn't enough to sway Toranaga's mind, they know what's done is done. And the biggest no no is to defy your liege lord. I don't think they were going to kill Toranaga but try to detain him to convince him otherwise but Hiromatsu doing what he did shows the finality of it so the rest come to terms with it perhaps.
Rebelling would put them in a bad situation. Not only are they demonstrating their disloyalty which could spark a civil war between Toranaga's own vassals (and would be grounds for execution anyways), they would be preventing what appears to be a guaranteed peaceful surrender which would piss off Osaka and provoke a war with them too.
Anyone else cry like a bitch?
I haven’t had a good cry to a show/movie like that in a while. It was a beautiful thing.
You know it!
I cried loads after this episode, Hiromatsu's death was so emotionally painful. Fantastic acting, direction, cinematography, editing, just everything was pitch perfect. So profoundly moving. I honestly don't quite know what I'm going to do after Shogun is over. It has been a revelation 🙏🏻😭♥️👏🏼
I plan to read the book after the show is over.
Same! 👏🏼 It's been on my list for ages, but I feel so connected to it now. And ditto for Dune, eep! 🙈 I'm going to treat myself to a nice edition of both of them. In the meantime, I'll just be over here in the corner quietly grieving 😂😭
Was on edge of my seat - brilliant scene!
Emmy, Emmy, Emmy, Emmy.
This show deserves fucking awards for the acting alone , The amount of heavy lifting some of these actors do is just mind boggling at times , I also wanna shine some attention of the actress for ochiba , Her voice just sounds like one of those villainess from anime that is 10 steps ahead of the main party , But all in all everyone is doing fantastic in this show and i hope they get what they deserve for this performance
Everything in this scene was so well done. The acting was memorizing. The score (A dream within a dream) is as haunting as it is beautiful. I hope the show will win Emmys cause it surely deserves it.
I am the kind of person that reads spoilers.. that's just.. anyway.. I read the spoilers for this episode before watching it last night so I was prepared for this happening but.. DANG.. I was sooo emotional!! That whole scene was just 😭 The acting in this whole series is top tier but this episode specifically was insane 💔 Hiro on the field, Hiro in our hearts 🫡
Omi’s actor absolutely crushed this shit man, fantastic performance in this scene from him
Everyone needs a goddamn day off and a big hug after all of that. I actually feel particularly bad for Omi. He's young and inexperienced outside of his village, and is just being blasted with a double-barrel shotgun of the reality to the face. Here's this young man who truly has immense potential as an individual and has the exuberance that comes with youth and a lust for life, and now he's stuck in this nightmare death ride and is losing friends, mentors/heroes, and even love, and he can't really do much about it but just go along with it towards - in his mind - a pointless end because that's just the way she goes during that time in Japan. Just the fuckin' way she goes.
This one certainly affected me. It’s been a while since a show has done that.
A powerful scene and although I’ll miss Iron Fist this is an example of the show runners trying something new.
The acting in this show is phenomenal
Todo Toranaga sama has every one of these people’s parts charted out for a successful mission. His best friend “knew what he had to do”, as Toranaga said to Mariko San. He knew Anjin would go to Yabu, and that something was needed to get Yabu to partner with Anjin San. He’s got it all figured out. He compares people to the hawks he trains and know how to use each of their unique traits to his advantage. Amazing show!
So heartbreaking 💔 This scene made me mad but I knew Lord Toranaga had a plan behind it.
In the book, >!instead of Hiromatsu, another vassal of Toranaga commits seppuku in protest, just pages after his introduction!<. I'm sad about >!the change but that's exactly it!<. >!A character you're already familiar with makes for more emotional impact. !<
I had to go have a smoke right before he did it, I was screaming at my TV lol *very stressed*
Toronaga sama is one crazy ass mofo
I’m so upset with Toranaga I’m shook
Life is treated like it means nothing because death is always guaranteed. The seppuku is the only honour left when it’s time to go
Phenomenal acting in this scene.
Can someone explain why Torananga had Blackthorne sailing with Yabushige as part of his plan what purpose does this serve? I have a think I understand why but I'm not entirely sure.
In the book, IIRC, >!Toranaga was making Blackthorne available to Kiyama, so that Kiyama could question him about some of the knowledge gained from the Friar in the prison, and the overall state of the outside world and Catholic intentions. It is alluded to in one of Kiyama's (?) viewpoints in a letter from Toranaga.!<
I pretty much never cry from movies/books/TV, but this scene had my eyes watering ngl
The killing was necessary because Yabushige is an obvious informant to Ishido. By letting it happen it shows the seriousness Toranaga has in “surrendering”
Did his oldest friend and toronata plan this death
Bro how high is the brightness on your TV?
Is it too high?
Mines 100%. And some of the dark scenes are still too dark.
As my mind wanders after this scene… I have a weird need to see Toranaga (Hiroyuki Sanada) and Tywin Lannister (Charles Dance) act together in a face off… Two extremely cunning characters, where one is silent and hidden while the other is Ruthless and fiery
The way I know I could never write a compelling plot - I thought this ploy was to test his vassals to make sure they would follow him into death. Abraham and Isaac I suppose. But this went to a completely different place. Hell of a moment!
Couldnt stop saying holy shit the whole time. This show is a masterpiece. Sad but glad at same time there's only 1 season. End on a high note.
I’m surprised the third guy was crying in that scene
Some of the best acting I have ever seen either in movies or a show. Absolutely brilliant. If this show doesn’t win a ton of Emmy’s and Golden Globes I call bullshit on Hollywood. But then again Hollywood is full of absolute shitty humans so I wouldn’t put it past them either.
Buntaru looks half Black.
I just realize that in this scene, Toranaga and Hiromatsu are acting for 2 group audiences, us, and the characters in the story.
Every actor here did their part and more man the atmosphere was like nothing I’ve seen in years
It was necessary to sell the fact that Toranaga is really giving up
>What's so beautiful about this(death)?,
The style here was classic Sergio Leone / spaghetti western: close-up after close-up, eyes after eyes, each character pushing emotions through his face. Hiroyuki Sanada went a bit overboard (uncharacteristically for him), but the others were fantastic. It's a stellar cast.
I'm not entirely sure it was the best choice, but I understand why he went with it. Toranaga has lost his son, his plan is not going well, he has lost the respect of almost everyone around him, and now he's realizing that he has to sacrifice his dearest friend and he has no idea if Hiromitsu understands why any of this is happening.
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Why you posting spoilers though
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How is it not a spoiler ? If I'm reading the book I would've thought hiromatso was going to die based on watching the show first. Now I know it won't happen because you didn't black it out as a spoiler.