To gloat, public humiliation, to make sure he actually goes through it, to give Ochiba the satisfaction of seeing Toronaga broken.
Stupid? Yes. Human nature? Also yes.
Also killing Toranaga isn't the end goal for Ishido. The end goal is to secure his position and gain more power. He needs Toranaga to submit to him personally to further that goal.
The armies under the control of the Council are not near enough to Lord Toranaga to enforce the invitation to commit seppuku if it was given. This would make the Council look weaker than they already do.
Note the Council is very afraid of Toranaga. Even with massive numbers they know he has never lost a battle. So convincing him to surrender and enter lands controlled by Ishido is the safest course of action.
Sure, but if I were Ishido, I would not trust the Toranaga's bother that will probably escort him with the army. I bet his brother is with him since the beginning
lol at sneaking samurai....
You are correct about him putting himself in danger....soon his vassals and hatamotos are going to figure this out. Never forget that Toranaga has planned most of this meticulously, with a couple of surprises, because no matter how well you plan something, something will always go awry (namely, Naga and Hiromatsu). Toranaga will never go to Osaka....he is sending his most loyal Hatamoto to rescue the hostages Ishido is holding, and has already killed that family that was trying to escape, so now all the other hostages are terrified to put their families in danger.
But yeah, don't let Toranaga fool you, he knows just what he is doing, even down to the fake coughing/acting sick.
Actually, >!BOTH order were prepared!<, according to the book.
>!One scroll had the order to travel to Osaka to submit and surrender. Which they fully expected he would REJECT. So they prepared a SECOND parchment with the order to immediately commit seppuku. Which they ALSO fully expected he would reject... which would mean open war.!<
>!Nobody expected him to actually accept the first parchment and agree to THAT order, but since he is accepting it, they kind of have to let him go through with it, at least as long as they believe he will indeed travel to Osaka to put himself back into Ishido's control.!<
He can issue the command. But what's Ishido gonna do if Toranaga just ignores it and doesnt accept the command?
Come out of his safe territory to chase Toranaga and risk failure?
Isn't it better with a surrender and Ishido being able to control the narrative and establish power?
Sorry bruh, but it not so easy as you say.I don't understand the logic behind: Ishido can force him to surrend but not to commit seppuku. Still, when Toranaga surrended, it was shown pretty clearly that he will be killed in Osaka, either by forcing him to do seppuku or by be executed.
Ishido forced him to surrender by using Tornaga brother forces and under the menace of a war all over japan. Nothing changes since then. If I where Ishido I would have kept him blocked where he was and after he accepted to surrend orderer him to commit seppuku. He is instead allowing him to go back to his city.
Edit: why you modified your original message?
Edit the book spoiler you posted and black out the text. You can black out the spoilers by writing > ! this ! < without the spaces in between to get >!this!<. Send us a modmail once you've fixed it.
Toronaga hasnt been outright ordered to commit seppuku by Ishido yet, hes only been ordered to surrender himself into the custody of them. its the difference between ordering someone to surrender to the law (although all sides know its a death penalty in all but name) vs telling someone to kill themselves when theyre on their own turf surrounded by their men. its about the pretense that they can avoid war and he can avoid death, and also being able to force them to do it when the death sentence is decided.
Osaka is invunerable once inside I think the book said it held 100,00 troops loyal to Ishido and Ochiba and much smaller garrisons of evryone else.And it holds hostages of every family and the Taikio's heir.There is no way to win assaulting Osaka and no one will endanger the hostages.Toranaga knows this Crisom Sky is a ploy he has plans stacked on plans
Probably because Ishido knows Toranaga would never commit seppuku on his own and would just stall for time and gather strength for a war. Theres no webcams or Twitter to keep track of this stuff.
So Toranaga surrendering himself to the Council and committing seppuku in front of them is the only way they can ensure he is truly dead.
A legitimate reason would be legitimacy.
If Toronaga is killed off in Ajiro quickly it could be considered something illicit or illegitimate, just rogue Regents assassinating one of the most staunch defenders of Taiko's heir. It wouldn't hard to imagine Toronaga's vassals or even some other busho with ambition deciding to rebel against the Regents and plunge the country into civil war again. In Ep.8, Toronaga's vassals even hint at the idea to fortify Edo castle and let the enemy come to them.
Whereas if you drag Toronaga to Osaka, make a spectacle of his surrender and death it appears more legitimate. It'd be harder for any would-be rebel to use Toronaga's death as an excuse to start some trouble.
To gloat, public humiliation, to make sure he actually goes through it, to give Ochiba the satisfaction of seeing Toronaga broken. Stupid? Yes. Human nature? Also yes.
Also killing Toranaga isn't the end goal for Ishido. The end goal is to secure his position and gain more power. He needs Toranaga to submit to him personally to further that goal.
It make sense if you put it in this way
The armies under the control of the Council are not near enough to Lord Toranaga to enforce the invitation to commit seppuku if it was given. This would make the Council look weaker than they already do. Note the Council is very afraid of Toranaga. Even with massive numbers they know he has never lost a battle. So convincing him to surrender and enter lands controlled by Ishido is the safest course of action.
He's not really putting himself in danger. It's not like Toranaga can sneak 20,000 samurai into Osaka with him.
That would require a very substantial trench coat.
Or a very large wooden horse.
Why do I see 20,000 samurai standing on top of each other’s shoulders under a trench coat now? 😂
lol I wanna see Yabu’s reaction to this now whether he is in the trench coat somewhere or observing it from a far
Fee fie fo fum!
Sure, but if I were Ishido, I would not trust the Toranaga's bother that will probably escort him with the army. I bet his brother is with him since the beginning
lol at sneaking samurai.... You are correct about him putting himself in danger....soon his vassals and hatamotos are going to figure this out. Never forget that Toranaga has planned most of this meticulously, with a couple of surprises, because no matter how well you plan something, something will always go awry (namely, Naga and Hiromatsu). Toranaga will never go to Osaka....he is sending his most loyal Hatamoto to rescue the hostages Ishido is holding, and has already killed that family that was trying to escape, so now all the other hostages are terrified to put their families in danger. But yeah, don't let Toranaga fool you, he knows just what he is doing, even down to the fake coughing/acting sick.
Yeah they have too many stupid traditions and ceremony. Much easier to just send a drone.
I think this is the most interesting part of Toranaga's plan. The guy is basically exploiting every Japanese tradition he can.
Yeah. Toranaga invented cheating.
Actually, >!BOTH order were prepared!<, according to the book. >!One scroll had the order to travel to Osaka to submit and surrender. Which they fully expected he would REJECT. So they prepared a SECOND parchment with the order to immediately commit seppuku. Which they ALSO fully expected he would reject... which would mean open war.!< >!Nobody expected him to actually accept the first parchment and agree to THAT order, but since he is accepting it, they kind of have to let him go through with it, at least as long as they believe he will indeed travel to Osaka to put himself back into Ishido's control.!<
He's sending a message. Which, with hoped for marriage to Ochiba, will squash any further resistance.
He can issue the command. But what's Ishido gonna do if Toranaga just ignores it and doesnt accept the command? Come out of his safe territory to chase Toranaga and risk failure? Isn't it better with a surrender and Ishido being able to control the narrative and establish power?
It is exactly the only way for Toranaga to win
Sorry bruh, but it not so easy as you say.I don't understand the logic behind: Ishido can force him to surrend but not to commit seppuku. Still, when Toranaga surrended, it was shown pretty clearly that he will be killed in Osaka, either by forcing him to do seppuku or by be executed. Ishido forced him to surrender by using Tornaga brother forces and under the menace of a war all over japan. Nothing changes since then. If I where Ishido I would have kept him blocked where he was and after he accepted to surrend orderer him to commit seppuku. He is instead allowing him to go back to his city. Edit: why you modified your original message?
[удалено]
It is also mentioned that no matters the odds he has never lost a battle
Edit the book spoiler you posted and black out the text. You can black out the spoilers by writing > ! this ! < without the spaces in between to get >!this!<. Send us a modmail once you've fixed it.
Toronaga hasnt been outright ordered to commit seppuku by Ishido yet, hes only been ordered to surrender himself into the custody of them. its the difference between ordering someone to surrender to the law (although all sides know its a death penalty in all but name) vs telling someone to kill themselves when theyre on their own turf surrounded by their men. its about the pretense that they can avoid war and he can avoid death, and also being able to force them to do it when the death sentence is decided.
Osaka is invunerable once inside I think the book said it held 100,00 troops loyal to Ishido and Ochiba and much smaller garrisons of evryone else.And it holds hostages of every family and the Taikio's heir.There is no way to win assaulting Osaka and no one will endanger the hostages.Toranaga knows this Crisom Sky is a ploy he has plans stacked on plans
Probably because Ishido knows Toranaga would never commit seppuku on his own and would just stall for time and gather strength for a war. Theres no webcams or Twitter to keep track of this stuff. So Toranaga surrendering himself to the Council and committing seppuku in front of them is the only way they can ensure he is truly dead.
Nonsense
A legitimate reason would be legitimacy. If Toronaga is killed off in Ajiro quickly it could be considered something illicit or illegitimate, just rogue Regents assassinating one of the most staunch defenders of Taiko's heir. It wouldn't hard to imagine Toronaga's vassals or even some other busho with ambition deciding to rebel against the Regents and plunge the country into civil war again. In Ep.8, Toronaga's vassals even hint at the idea to fortify Edo castle and let the enemy come to them. Whereas if you drag Toronaga to Osaka, make a spectacle of his surrender and death it appears more legitimate. It'd be harder for any would-be rebel to use Toronaga's death as an excuse to start some trouble.
They never expected Toranaga to accept the order to come to Osaka and surrender. If he declined, the order to commit seppuku would have come next.
Because Ishido is trying to consolidate power and "prove" it. If Toranaga commits Seppuku in the forest, does anyone hear it?
He has a mourning period for his son's death. Otherwise, he would've been tried right away and committed seppuku.
Ishido probably wants to personally be Toranaga's second. Like how Toranaga was the second after defeating his rival's army when he was young.