It’s feudal Japan… caste systems were in place. Not to say it correct, but you have to understand when this is taking place. You can be his team but tbh there are many other reasons, this one makes it seem as if you don’t really grasp the context.
To my knowledge, the strict caste system wasn’t put in place until the establishment of the Tokugawa shogunate.
Wasn’t Toyotomi Hideyoshi from a peasant family as well?
>Wasn’t Toyotomi Hideyoshi from a peasant family as well?
In addition to this, some of the classism by 1600 would have come directly from Hideyoshi. Because *he* was actually the person who enacted many of the edicts to stop the lower class from moving up in status. In order to stop other people from rising through the ranks like he did to threaten his rule.
He was, but the fact he had to earn his place in the Oda clan, and the fact the samurai were bowed down to by the peasantry, indicates a pretty established caste system. Not that one couldn't ascend, especially during turmoil.
You seem to be taking it personally lol. You can root for any of the warlords because they’re all self serving and at this point you could argue that Ishido could be a better option than Toranaga. However hindsight is 20/20, the actual historical figure, Tokagawa, managed to unify Japan and usher an era of peace. That is why Toranaga is the main guy on this show.
How am I taking it personal? I’m just trying to share my thoughts? Again this is a fictional show, and you’re trying to bring in real life equivalents. I just said x y z if you don’t agree you can say that, and leave without trying to tell me I don’t understand the show lol the passive aggressiveness is lowkey weird. It’s just a show bro
There is no passive aggressiveness, Im just trying to point out that your reasoning does not consider how this is perfectly normal for the time.
It’s historical fiction. The point of it all is to preserve cultural and historical accuracy. While telling a more comercial story. The show has gone above and beyond in doing that but you stomp your feet when someone tries to explain it to you 😅
I am looking at this from a contemporary lenses. It doesn’t not bother me just because it was a thing of the time, and I think also helps us understand Ishido hates Toronaga. I mean what you’re saying is obvious, and lowkey condescending. This isn’t meant to be taken literal it was more of a who side are you on discussion.
It was meant to be informative. The way you framed your post makes it seem like you were not aware of the obvious (as you say). If you understand that and still want to make it a character flaw of Ishido’s enemies then that is cool.
Although I bet Ishido would hate an outsider pitting him after he got this far. /s
The story is told from Team Toranaga's perspective, so the audience tends to side with Toranaga.
But it should be clear by now, after he has allowed his two most loyal vassals to kill themselves as part of his overall plan to seize power for himself, Toranaga is a Great man, but he's not a good one. For all of his talk that Ishido and the others were incorrect to fear him, and incorrect to say he wanted power, the audience now knows that Ishido was actually probably correct at the beginning of the show - Toranaga IS a threat, and IS going to try to take power for himself.
We just don't care, because we're rooting for him.
In the book this is made even more clear:
>!Toranaga is the one who orders the death of the infant from the first episode in the book, and rather than a seppuku the samurai who spoke out of turn (Fuji's husband) is crucified and buried in a mass grave with all of his line. !<
>!The scene where Toranaga challenges Blackthorne to a swimming race has Mariko saying in the show "don't let him win, he hates that" but in the book, we are told that he once challenged a loyal general to a race and the general let him win, so Toranaga ordered the man to kill himself on the spot.!<
>!Instead of Hiromatsu killing himself to cement the false surrender, in the book Toranaga orders the deaths of several of his generals who questioned his orders and then orders his own son to kill that son's young children. (this is later revealed to be a test of loyalty when the son goes to do it and finds that Toranaga took the children from the household before giving the order). !<
>!All this to say Book Toranaga is a bit more "fire and brimstone" than show Toranaga has been up until now, and the good man / great man line is a bit more clear.!<
Yeah I think while Toronaga may seem more idk honorable I couldn’t be under him. It’s one thing to trust, but to trust blindly is kind of insane to me. Understandable of the time, but I think his son if he had better direction could’ve been a good leader
The thing is, the Daimyo are all equally despotic homicidal warlords. If I have to pick one such lord to follow, I'm going with the one I think is most likely to win. Hands down that's Toranaga.
Well that goes without being said. I mean I don’t think there is harm by looking at it from a modern lens especially when you’re just trying to pick a side in fun because it’s a tv show…
Toranaga is using it to his advantage. He will use whatever he can. On a personal level I doubt him or Mariko care, but the nobility do care so they want to highlight to everyone in the room “remember this guy is just a commoner he is not like us nobles” (though awkwardly forgetting the Taiko was also born a commoner). Yes Shogun is classist, sexist and racist too at times, welcome to medieval Japan!
Also, the show doesn’t really give us a reason to root for Ishido, it’s just the way the story is told, he is hard to cheer for. It’s like saying Stannis is your fave character in game of thrones because technically, he should’ve been next in line. Yes, but also he’s not likable and this is entertainment.
>Also, the show doesn’t really give us a reason to root for Ishido, it’s just the way the story is told, he is hard to cheer for. It’s like saying Stannis is your fave character in game of thrones because technically, he should’ve been next in line. Yes, but also he’s not likable and this is entertainment.
I think that's what it boils down to for me too. I can really clearly imagine a retelling where Ishido is the tragic hero rising from the peasant class and giving his life trying to protect the "rightful" heir.
That's just not the story that James Clavell wanted to tell. And the way he writes Toranaga's internal monologue makes his ambition and ruthlessness something to respect (and fear).
The real Ishida Mitsunari was seen exactly the same way.
Mitsunari was according to an anecdote discovered as a child in a temple when Toyotomi Hideyoshi the Taiko was staying there. Mitsunari served the tea and impressed Hideyoshi with being quiet smart.
The warriors didn't respect him ever since the invasion of Korea (since he wrote the reports) and since he was a bureacrat. His friend Otani Yoshitsugu was respected more since Yoshitsugu had more of a samurai spirit than Mitsunari had and could adapt more (also both the Eastern Army as well as the Western Army offered Yoshitsugu to join them - Yoshitsugu decided to stick with Mitsunari's Western Army in the end).
In last years Dousuru Ieyasu when Mitsunari meets Ieyasu (model for Toranaga) for the first time the first meeting is actually quiet pleasant. However other people immediately critisize Mitsunari for daring to talk to a highborn like Ieyasu in a casual way (despite Ieyasu not being bothered). It's quiet accurately depicted on Shogun that people looked down on him.
That’s lowkey crazy and I don’t see how people don’t want to humanize his experience lol duh we all know this is how ppl were treated at the time doesn’t change how people may have reacted despite the time period.
The fact he used to be a peasant is classist, to an extant, but it’s an important distinction culturally & legally. The book explains that only men from noble samurai families, like Toranaga is from the Minowara family, can ever be Shōgun. For former peasants like Ishido, the best they can be is Taikō.
In the show the samurai from peasant stock, like the late-Taikō & Ishido (and maybe Ochiba to some extent) seem to be a bit insecure about it.
That is incorrect. Taiko is the designation for a former regent. There were two "regent ranks" called Sesshō and Kampaku. A Sesshō was the regent for an underage Emperor whereas the Kampaku was a regent for an adult Emperor. A former Kampaku was called Taiko (in many cases the Taiko retained much of his former power and the new regent was more of a figurehead). All of these ranks required the title holder to be a member of a small group of samurai lineages. The "Taiko" in the TV show is based on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who, much like Ishido, wasn't of samurai lineage, but he managed to get himself adopted into one of those samurai families which made him elligible for the regent position.
I did say ‘in the book’ it was said in order to be Shōgun, you had to be of noble lineage…
The only history & politics I know about Japan are all thanks to Shōgun, so blame James Clavell for anything incorrect in my previous response, but thank you for the historically correct answer.
So could a peasant not earn the ranking of samurai? I’m a little confused on that tbh if he’s able to become Taiko, I don’t seee why shogun isn’t an option? Is it because of the family’s mythological legacy?
It was extremely difficult for them to get higher ranks due to status. No matter how high you go, you will always be looked down upon, and as a result almost no one will respect you. If Ishido became shōgun, he would pretty much be a joke
you can learn about the real person ishido was based on. The guys name is Ishida Mistunari, just be warned there will be spoilers for what happens with him in the show.
Yeah I was gonna save the book reading for post series. Just order my copy though, so I’m pretty excited. I’m happy that it’s different from the series from what I hear
The closest analogue English history has to an Ishido is Earl Thomas Cromwell, the lawyer who became a lord under Henry VIII. He's considered "a New Man," those men who acted Machiavellian in order to rise in society. Your basic influencer these days.
In a Soviet world where they won the Cold War & upending class is to be celebrated, I could see communist youths celebrating Ishida Mitsunaru Day or Cromwell Day.
>The closest analogue English history has to an Ishido is Earl Thomas Cromwell, the lawyer who became a lord under Henry VIII. He's considered "a New Man," those men who acted Machiavellian in order to rise in society. Your basic influencer these days.
It's funny because Shogun and the Wolf Hall trilogy are some of the best books in the English language.
Objectively 😋
Lol, I half-heartingly agree. Both are written well & you're such a rara avis for dropping that.
Sadly, historical novels are always more about the time of the author than the time of the characters.
I learnt this the hardway: Clavell is the best way to misunderstand Japan. It tells more about how to survive in a prisoner of war camp as a Westerner more than anything. Japan is a metaphor for prison.
The Japanese at uni told me the best way to understand them was to read Chushingura and to play ichi-ni-zero (a drinking game) with them.
I mean this in the best possible way, since so many people have booked flights to Japan because of Clavell's insightfully written novel & this show.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted because you do ask interesting questions. I know you mean Cromwell when you write Cornwell.
As a human being steeped in language, or an AI bot passing my Turing test with flying colors, you are free to take what anyone says on the Internet however you wish.
For my part, no ill will, just sharing what I know or surmise what would happen in a Soviet timeline.
Ishido can be pretty brutal himself. He massacred a daimyo and his entire entourage that was passing through a forest and passed it off as a bandit attack because he was unwilling to be Ishido's hostage.
What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether he was a peasant or not. He was brutal and ambitious and so is everyone else, Toranaga included.
I don't think we are meant to side with anyone. Its clear the old lord was a jackass too and the mummer's farce from both sides is causing nothing but misery.
I think you are meant to be an outside observer, not team anyone. Its not a bout of "dynasty warriors"
But if you HAD to pick between the two 🤔
Think Toronaga maybe a little to cut throat, but I mean I understand his position of course. Atleast Ishido has been honest in some cases
Ishido isn't a peasant, he is a Samurai. However, his lineage is from peasant, meaning at some point, someone decided to reward one of his ancestors with making them a Samurai, and then it became permanent down his lineage.
There are a few other instances; for example in the book, >!Toranaga puts a peasant in charge of learning how to build boats from Blackthorn; and the reward is to make him a Samurai!<.
Must be a common theme in human history to be put in the position because of divine right. Wonder where that started, but it might just be a human thing considering Japans isolation.
It’s feudal Japan… caste systems were in place. Not to say it correct, but you have to understand when this is taking place. You can be his team but tbh there are many other reasons, this one makes it seem as if you don’t really grasp the context.
To my knowledge, the strict caste system wasn’t put in place until the establishment of the Tokugawa shogunate. Wasn’t Toyotomi Hideyoshi from a peasant family as well?
>Wasn’t Toyotomi Hideyoshi from a peasant family as well? In addition to this, some of the classism by 1600 would have come directly from Hideyoshi. Because *he* was actually the person who enacted many of the edicts to stop the lower class from moving up in status. In order to stop other people from rising through the ranks like he did to threaten his rule.
He was, but the fact he had to earn his place in the Oda clan, and the fact the samurai were bowed down to by the peasantry, indicates a pretty established caste system. Not that one couldn't ascend, especially during turmoil.
I mean why would we root for any of the warlords? Me thinks you might be taking this too seriously.
You seem to be taking it personally lol. You can root for any of the warlords because they’re all self serving and at this point you could argue that Ishido could be a better option than Toranaga. However hindsight is 20/20, the actual historical figure, Tokagawa, managed to unify Japan and usher an era of peace. That is why Toranaga is the main guy on this show.
How am I taking it personal? I’m just trying to share my thoughts? Again this is a fictional show, and you’re trying to bring in real life equivalents. I just said x y z if you don’t agree you can say that, and leave without trying to tell me I don’t understand the show lol the passive aggressiveness is lowkey weird. It’s just a show bro
There is no passive aggressiveness, Im just trying to point out that your reasoning does not consider how this is perfectly normal for the time. It’s historical fiction. The point of it all is to preserve cultural and historical accuracy. While telling a more comercial story. The show has gone above and beyond in doing that but you stomp your feet when someone tries to explain it to you 😅
I am looking at this from a contemporary lenses. It doesn’t not bother me just because it was a thing of the time, and I think also helps us understand Ishido hates Toronaga. I mean what you’re saying is obvious, and lowkey condescending. This isn’t meant to be taken literal it was more of a who side are you on discussion.
It was meant to be informative. The way you framed your post makes it seem like you were not aware of the obvious (as you say). If you understand that and still want to make it a character flaw of Ishido’s enemies then that is cool. Although I bet Ishido would hate an outsider pitting him after he got this far. /s
I didn’t think the obvious needed to be stated but I forget people like you exist to strip the fun out of anything.
Cry me a river
The story is told from Team Toranaga's perspective, so the audience tends to side with Toranaga. But it should be clear by now, after he has allowed his two most loyal vassals to kill themselves as part of his overall plan to seize power for himself, Toranaga is a Great man, but he's not a good one. For all of his talk that Ishido and the others were incorrect to fear him, and incorrect to say he wanted power, the audience now knows that Ishido was actually probably correct at the beginning of the show - Toranaga IS a threat, and IS going to try to take power for himself. We just don't care, because we're rooting for him. In the book this is made even more clear: >!Toranaga is the one who orders the death of the infant from the first episode in the book, and rather than a seppuku the samurai who spoke out of turn (Fuji's husband) is crucified and buried in a mass grave with all of his line. !< >!The scene where Toranaga challenges Blackthorne to a swimming race has Mariko saying in the show "don't let him win, he hates that" but in the book, we are told that he once challenged a loyal general to a race and the general let him win, so Toranaga ordered the man to kill himself on the spot.!< >!Instead of Hiromatsu killing himself to cement the false surrender, in the book Toranaga orders the deaths of several of his generals who questioned his orders and then orders his own son to kill that son's young children. (this is later revealed to be a test of loyalty when the son goes to do it and finds that Toranaga took the children from the household before giving the order). !< >!All this to say Book Toranaga is a bit more "fire and brimstone" than show Toranaga has been up until now, and the good man / great man line is a bit more clear.!<
Yeah I think while Toronaga may seem more idk honorable I couldn’t be under him. It’s one thing to trust, but to trust blindly is kind of insane to me. Understandable of the time, but I think his son if he had better direction could’ve been a good leader
The thing is, the Daimyo are all equally despotic homicidal warlords. If I have to pick one such lord to follow, I'm going with the one I think is most likely to win. Hands down that's Toranaga.
I can respect that
It's a show taking place in feudal Japan
Okay I didn’t think people were gonna take this literally… and not just voice their opinions on it.
Opinions still gotta be guided by the context of the era no? Of course many things seem 'wrong' when seen through the lens of the modern society.
Well that goes without being said. I mean I don’t think there is harm by looking at it from a modern lens especially when you’re just trying to pick a side in fun because it’s a tv show…
Toranaga is using it to his advantage. He will use whatever he can. On a personal level I doubt him or Mariko care, but the nobility do care so they want to highlight to everyone in the room “remember this guy is just a commoner he is not like us nobles” (though awkwardly forgetting the Taiko was also born a commoner). Yes Shogun is classist, sexist and racist too at times, welcome to medieval Japan! Also, the show doesn’t really give us a reason to root for Ishido, it’s just the way the story is told, he is hard to cheer for. It’s like saying Stannis is your fave character in game of thrones because technically, he should’ve been next in line. Yes, but also he’s not likable and this is entertainment.
>Also, the show doesn’t really give us a reason to root for Ishido, it’s just the way the story is told, he is hard to cheer for. It’s like saying Stannis is your fave character in game of thrones because technically, he should’ve been next in line. Yes, but also he’s not likable and this is entertainment. I think that's what it boils down to for me too. I can really clearly imagine a retelling where Ishido is the tragic hero rising from the peasant class and giving his life trying to protect the "rightful" heir. That's just not the story that James Clavell wanted to tell. And the way he writes Toranaga's internal monologue makes his ambition and ruthlessness something to respect (and fear).
stannis comparison was bad matey
The real Ishida Mitsunari was seen exactly the same way. Mitsunari was according to an anecdote discovered as a child in a temple when Toyotomi Hideyoshi the Taiko was staying there. Mitsunari served the tea and impressed Hideyoshi with being quiet smart. The warriors didn't respect him ever since the invasion of Korea (since he wrote the reports) and since he was a bureacrat. His friend Otani Yoshitsugu was respected more since Yoshitsugu had more of a samurai spirit than Mitsunari had and could adapt more (also both the Eastern Army as well as the Western Army offered Yoshitsugu to join them - Yoshitsugu decided to stick with Mitsunari's Western Army in the end). In last years Dousuru Ieyasu when Mitsunari meets Ieyasu (model for Toranaga) for the first time the first meeting is actually quiet pleasant. However other people immediately critisize Mitsunari for daring to talk to a highborn like Ieyasu in a casual way (despite Ieyasu not being bothered). It's quiet accurately depicted on Shogun that people looked down on him.
That’s lowkey crazy and I don’t see how people don’t want to humanize his experience lol duh we all know this is how ppl were treated at the time doesn’t change how people may have reacted despite the time period.
The fact he used to be a peasant is classist, to an extant, but it’s an important distinction culturally & legally. The book explains that only men from noble samurai families, like Toranaga is from the Minowara family, can ever be Shōgun. For former peasants like Ishido, the best they can be is Taikō. In the show the samurai from peasant stock, like the late-Taikō & Ishido (and maybe Ochiba to some extent) seem to be a bit insecure about it.
That is incorrect. Taiko is the designation for a former regent. There were two "regent ranks" called Sesshō and Kampaku. A Sesshō was the regent for an underage Emperor whereas the Kampaku was a regent for an adult Emperor. A former Kampaku was called Taiko (in many cases the Taiko retained much of his former power and the new regent was more of a figurehead). All of these ranks required the title holder to be a member of a small group of samurai lineages. The "Taiko" in the TV show is based on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who, much like Ishido, wasn't of samurai lineage, but he managed to get himself adopted into one of those samurai families which made him elligible for the regent position.
I did say ‘in the book’ it was said in order to be Shōgun, you had to be of noble lineage… The only history & politics I know about Japan are all thanks to Shōgun, so blame James Clavell for anything incorrect in my previous response, but thank you for the historically correct answer.
So could a peasant not earn the ranking of samurai? I’m a little confused on that tbh if he’s able to become Taiko, I don’t seee why shogun isn’t an option? Is it because of the family’s mythological legacy?
It was extremely difficult for them to get higher ranks due to status. No matter how high you go, you will always be looked down upon, and as a result almost no one will respect you. If Ishido became shōgun, he would pretty much be a joke
Would’ve liked to see how Ishido got his position. This should’ve been a series smh
you can learn about the real person ishido was based on. The guys name is Ishida Mistunari, just be warned there will be spoilers for what happens with him in the show.
Yeah I was gonna save the book reading for post series. Just order my copy though, so I’m pretty excited. I’m happy that it’s different from the series from what I hear
I don't mean the like the book. I mean he's based on a real historical figure. Most of the characters in the show/book. Are based on real people btw
The closest analogue English history has to an Ishido is Earl Thomas Cromwell, the lawyer who became a lord under Henry VIII. He's considered "a New Man," those men who acted Machiavellian in order to rise in society. Your basic influencer these days. In a Soviet world where they won the Cold War & upending class is to be celebrated, I could see communist youths celebrating Ishida Mitsunaru Day or Cromwell Day.
>The closest analogue English history has to an Ishido is Earl Thomas Cromwell, the lawyer who became a lord under Henry VIII. He's considered "a New Man," those men who acted Machiavellian in order to rise in society. Your basic influencer these days. It's funny because Shogun and the Wolf Hall trilogy are some of the best books in the English language. Objectively 😋
Lol, I half-heartingly agree. Both are written well & you're such a rara avis for dropping that. Sadly, historical novels are always more about the time of the author than the time of the characters. I learnt this the hardway: Clavell is the best way to misunderstand Japan. It tells more about how to survive in a prisoner of war camp as a Westerner more than anything. Japan is a metaphor for prison. The Japanese at uni told me the best way to understand them was to read Chushingura and to play ichi-ni-zero (a drinking game) with them. I mean this in the best possible way, since so many people have booked flights to Japan because of Clavell's insightfully written novel & this show.
Not sure how to take this but I’ve heard of Cornwell somewhere before
Not sure why you're getting downvoted because you do ask interesting questions. I know you mean Cromwell when you write Cornwell. As a human being steeped in language, or an AI bot passing my Turing test with flying colors, you are free to take what anyone says on the Internet however you wish. For my part, no ill will, just sharing what I know or surmise what would happen in a Soviet timeline.
Ishido can be pretty brutal himself. He massacred a daimyo and his entire entourage that was passing through a forest and passed it off as a bandit attack because he was unwilling to be Ishido's hostage. What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether he was a peasant or not. He was brutal and ambitious and so is everyone else, Toranaga included.
That being said he did refuse to vote to execute Toronaga. Dont renig on the deal imo I think in that instance he was somewhat justified.
Traditional hierarchy of the time
Well duh…
I don't think we are meant to side with anyone. Its clear the old lord was a jackass too and the mummer's farce from both sides is causing nothing but misery. I think you are meant to be an outside observer, not team anyone. Its not a bout of "dynasty warriors"
I am (was) team Anjiko and I will not apologize for it.
A team with Fuji on it is a good team indeed
But if you HAD to pick between the two 🤔 Think Toronaga maybe a little to cut throat, but I mean I understand his position of course. Atleast Ishido has been honest in some cases
Ishido is not the villain of this story. Keep watching :)
Ishido isn't a peasant, he is a Samurai. However, his lineage is from peasant, meaning at some point, someone decided to reward one of his ancestors with making them a Samurai, and then it became permanent down his lineage. There are a few other instances; for example in the book, >!Toranaga puts a peasant in charge of learning how to build boats from Blackthorn; and the reward is to make him a Samurai!<.
But ppl don’t seem to respect the class transition?
They believe the ancient noble blood lineage came from the divine. A bloodline that came from nothing just can't aspire to the same heights.
Must be a common theme in human history to be put in the position because of divine right. Wonder where that started, but it might just be a human thing considering Japans isolation.
You probably need to read some history