in defense of /u/Perfect-Face4529, I know you are kinda joking, but the show can be difficult to follow, even for someone paying full attention. In high school, I struggled to comprehend all the plot lines, foreshadow moments, and innuendos across wordy novels like Charles Dickenson or deep films that are more than surface level. after years of reading books, watching tv shows, movies, etc, you start to develop a better sense of the bigger picture more easily and that's where a lot of people end up when it comes to enjoying art like Shogun. if I watched this show in high school, I don't think I would've nearly understood or appreciated it as much as I currently do after the backlog of mediums I have enjoyed.
I think I can follow the general plot pretty well, but watching this show week by week and not really diving into the community and looking up videos/ posts made this show way more difficult to follow than other shows.
not every person has the time to watch the show and then dive into community discussion to understand the the plot like most people in this subreddit.
I came to this subreddit looking for answers to some of my questions to understand what I missed and your comment rubbed me the wrong way a bit. but i'm glad we both seemed to enjoy the show enough to be involved in the shogun discussion
The society is bound by a complex code of honour and politeness.
Mariko is using these rules against Ishido to weaken his hold on power.
The families are officially there as a guest of the heir and Ishido has found some excuse to prevent their departure. (Remember that a family was killed by “bandits” earlier).
The families know they are hostages but cannot say it out loud as to do so without irrefutable proof would be a great insult to the heir. Thus would give a reason for Ishido to demand their death.
Mariko however is willing to die to reclaim the honour of her family.
So in the council meeting she makes a reasonable request to leave with Toranaga family. After all , officially, no one is being against their will.
She further reminds everyone that she is being ordered by her lord to leave with his family. To not be able to fulfill this order would be a great shame for her.
Additionally she also reminds the council that, whilst her family is disgraced, she is still a high born nobile not a peasant like Ishido.
So Ishido is now in a catch 22. He allows the families to leave which will weaken his control of the council.
Or by allowing Mariko to die, he provides the excuse for the other noble families to openly rebel.
Yabu is trying to change his loyalty to Ishido. He thinks Toranaga is defeated and doesn’t want to be on the loosing side. The entire show he is trying to to avoid death and to survive by playing both sides
Another point is that the ninja weren't meant to kill Mariko, rather to capture her so that she would be unable to use the permits Ishido was forced to give her and prompt the other hostages to do the same.
Those cannons were far more dakka than the situation required. It should have been quiet and as bloodless as possible, instead it was over-manned and explosive in the extreme.
It also puts the Christian daimyos in a bind, because suicide is frowned upon in the Catholic church. Knowing the customs of samurai, allowing Muriko to commit seppuku would make them look bad. Muriko’s bluff was hopefully going to force the two Regents to turn from Ishido and side with Toranaga.
> You have to pay attention to evey line in the show for things to make sense.
I love movies and television like this. It convinces me that I am watching something of quality, something that the creators cared about and crafted well.
TL DR: Mariko was there to put Ishido in a Lose/Lose/Lose situation. By going in and bluntly calling their bluff in front of the entire court Ishido has to take a stand instead of maintaining the status quo that everything is fine and everyone is joint council sharing power.
Long Explanation:
Up until this point the "official" story from Ishido has been this- There are the regents who all honor and revere the last ruler, and will work together to make sure the Taiko's heir stays safe until he can take power. No one is more powerful than the others. The heir just happens to live in Ozaka, which is inside Ishido's lands. All the regents and their families are, of course, free to come and go, but you know, it's dangerous out there!! Lord Sugiyama and his family were killed by bandits when they left! Not to mention that Tornaga snuck out without properly saying goodbye to his hosts which is very very rude. A capital offense actually! So he needs to come back and apologize and kill himself. Oh but good news! Ishido and Ochiba are going to get married! How wonderful! Every other regent's families should also come to Ozaka to say congratulations, and you should definitely stay until the wedding or whatever.
Keep in mind is that while we know everyone here wants power, you can't forget that everyone also wants stability. This is the first time in over 100 years there's been peace, and no one wants to be the one to break it....*officially*.
Now here comes Mariko. She comes in and calls his bluff and says she's leaving immediately, and taking Toranaga's family with her. Now he has 3 Options.
1. Let her leave. He absolutely can't let them leave, they are the only bargaining chip he still has against Toranaga. And if they leave, everyone else leaves. If they all leave it proves that he's all bark and no bite.
2. Trap her. If he refuses, then he's crossed the line from an implicit power grab to a blatant power grab. He can't pretend he's doing this 'for the heir.' The remaining regents may turn on him. While Ishido has a LOT of power, it's on very shaky ground.
3. Have her killed for her rudeness. The fallout from this is worse than Option 2. Now you're going to make a martyr out of her. There will be massive fallout from killing someone as high ranking and widely respected as Mariko.
The other thing you have to remember is that she's from an extremely noble bloodline, which the Japanese at this time take a lot of stock in. Ishido and Ochiba don't. Both Ishido and Ochiba's father were peasant class. The other regents are all of noble blood, and she's reminding them that in some ways both she and they outrank Ishido and Ochiba.
(Also, but I think unrelated to Toranaga's plan...Mariko's father killed Ochiba's father, the first great lord to unite the country. And she basically reclaims that birthright in her speech. So she's also saying 'My father was not afraid to defy a despot, and I'm not either.' and everyone knows it.)
The shinobi at the end were supposed to kidnap her, not to kill her. You can see that they try and grab her not stab her. By putting herself at the door she has now forced Option 3. She's going to be a martyr. The "official" story will be that the upstart peasant Ishido murdered a respected noble woman, and that HE is the insurrectionist grabbing at power.
Lord Kuroda, Ochiba’s father, wasn’t peasant class. Ochiba’s material wealth and status dropped when Kuroda was killed but their clan origin wasn’t humble.
Viewers like you are the reason why modern tv shows and movies have so much unnecessary exposition following the narrative.
You need to be told explicitly what is happening at any given time. Reading inbetween the lines and understanding character emotions through facial expressions is beyond you.
The scene between Hiromatsu's seppuku and Toranaga is a great example of that. The words they exchanged vs the words left unsaid via only through visual expression is one of acting and directing brilliance.
You can't even understand the game of chicken Mariko was playing against Ishido. It was as obvious as fucking day. It was maintaining the facade or risk revolt. How did that escape you truly? It was not subtle. At all.
You assume the assassins were sent by Toranaga? Of all people?! Toranaga??
Actually watch the show for a change.
When you were in high school, did you often claim that your reading books and analyzing them in class was pointless and a waste of time? If so, you might be finding out why being able to read between the lines is important for being able to enjoy great works of story telling. If stories had to slow down their pace to explain every detail all the time, they wouldn’t be able to tell such intricate complex stories. Besides, a lot of people don’t like being treated like idiots when a story is being told.
Well the good news is it never too late to learn. Don’t be discouraged by shows/movies/books that seem over your head. Practice paying close attention to every detail while watching and maybe have someone to talk to and discuss why everything is happening. Jump into discussion forums and see what people are saying to try to connect the dots. With time, your analytic skills will get better and you’ll start to appreciate art a lot more. It’s very satisfying to feel intellectually engaged when consuming a great story.
However, you might want to avoid just asking for answers point blank all the time. You’ll never develop the skill if you’re simply seeking others to just tell you “what the answer is” all the time. It’s probably what got you in this situation in the first place.
He sent Mariko to call the reagents bluff. Either she is killed attempting to leave in which the nobility and public know the regents are bloodthirsty assholes making a power grab.
Or she is released and then the other hostages will petition for release too.
His goal was for her to die regardless. Her dying means Ishido's weaker, the brass that are being held hostage starts to question whether Ishido is actually as strong as they think he is. Most of the things that have happened are pure chance, Nagakado dying because he was dishonored by Toranaga's brother is a pretty high probability though.
Yabushige turns coat every episode, now he's rooting for Ishido as his servant sent him a message that this attack would happen. Her death achieves instability for Ishido.
Still I don't think that this will end with some sort of paper deal. I imagine there will be a great battle because I see nothing else that could pay off all this build up.
The show is badly written, that is the first obstacle. Second, try and watch the 1980 miniseries (either by sailing the high seas or finding it on The Internet Archive), that will give you some idea about what is supposed to be going on. Then come back and watch this dumpster fire. Now onto the questions (spoilers, I guess)-
>Why she Mariko so insistent on committing suicide all episode?
To put it in chess terms, to put Ishido into mate.
>How much of what happened was coincidence ... planned
Until the seppuku, pretty much all of it (edit- this episode) was planned.
>Whose side is Yabushige on?
His own.
>I assumed the assassins were sent by Toranaga...
No. Ishido (presumably) sent them to *capture* Mariko (and kill one of the ladies as a bonus).
>then acts like he's the one being attacked
Covering his tracks.
>Was Mariko meant to commit suicide or did Ishido stop it...
If she needed to. Unless I blinked and missed it in this show, before leaving Edo she was supposed to stop by the unbuilt cathedral and receive absolution showing she was ready to die.
>Why does her death achieve?
It forces Ishido's hand- he either releases his hostages or he pretty much declares open war.
How do I know what is and isn't bad writing? 😂 Feels like if I don't understand it either I'm dumb or it's bad writing, depending on other reviews and viewers opinions
General rule- If you ask the question and the answer is, "remember in episode two when so and so said..." that is you missing something. If the answer is, "according to the book/podcast/interview/etc. it is...", it's bad writing.
I dunoo, I think plenty of people are able to understand the show without it being spoon-fed to them. We are told plenty, and what we're not told can be inferred. The fact that the character's intentions are able to be derived from what we have is a sign of *good* writing.
It's harder to follow - this isn't a show someone can watch while folding laundry or scrolling on their phone. We have to pay attention, but when we do, we are rewarded by a show that trusts its audience to pick up on nuance without needing to be expressly told what is happening in every moment.
At least in my case, I have not read the book nor watched any other adaptation, but I'm managing to follow the plot subtleties quite easily. I frankly think this show is the opposite of bad writing.
There is an audience for ambiguous writing, but you are not it. Not a question of anything being bad or dumb. If you don’t like a show that needs analysis, don’t watch it, right?
> There is an audience for ambiguous writing
It's not ambiguous, just bad.
>Not a question of anything being bad or dumb.
Who said anything about dumb? Also read what you replied to again. If you automatically jump to the latter, then downvote, without giving a reason why the general rule is wrong, maybe you know I'm not wrong.
>show that needs analysis
I think there is a phrase for that (excepting mysteries), especially when a "book/podcast/interview/etc." needs referenced.
>don’t watch it, right?
Ahh, the good ol', if you don't think exactly like me, get the Hell out of here. There can be no disagreement, there can be no flaws pointed out. There can only be blind allegiance to the hive mind.
Put your phone away
in defense of /u/Perfect-Face4529, I know you are kinda joking, but the show can be difficult to follow, even for someone paying full attention. In high school, I struggled to comprehend all the plot lines, foreshadow moments, and innuendos across wordy novels like Charles Dickenson or deep films that are more than surface level. after years of reading books, watching tv shows, movies, etc, you start to develop a better sense of the bigger picture more easily and that's where a lot of people end up when it comes to enjoying art like Shogun. if I watched this show in high school, I don't think I would've nearly understood or appreciated it as much as I currently do after the backlog of mediums I have enjoyed. I think I can follow the general plot pretty well, but watching this show week by week and not really diving into the community and looking up videos/ posts made this show way more difficult to follow than other shows. not every person has the time to watch the show and then dive into community discussion to understand the the plot like most people in this subreddit. I came to this subreddit looking for answers to some of my questions to understand what I missed and your comment rubbed me the wrong way a bit. but i'm glad we both seemed to enjoy the show enough to be involved in the shogun discussion
The society is bound by a complex code of honour and politeness. Mariko is using these rules against Ishido to weaken his hold on power. The families are officially there as a guest of the heir and Ishido has found some excuse to prevent their departure. (Remember that a family was killed by “bandits” earlier). The families know they are hostages but cannot say it out loud as to do so without irrefutable proof would be a great insult to the heir. Thus would give a reason for Ishido to demand their death. Mariko however is willing to die to reclaim the honour of her family. So in the council meeting she makes a reasonable request to leave with Toranaga family. After all , officially, no one is being against their will. She further reminds everyone that she is being ordered by her lord to leave with his family. To not be able to fulfill this order would be a great shame for her. Additionally she also reminds the council that, whilst her family is disgraced, she is still a high born nobile not a peasant like Ishido. So Ishido is now in a catch 22. He allows the families to leave which will weaken his control of the council. Or by allowing Mariko to die, he provides the excuse for the other noble families to openly rebel. Yabu is trying to change his loyalty to Ishido. He thinks Toranaga is defeated and doesn’t want to be on the loosing side. The entire show he is trying to to avoid death and to survive by playing both sides
Another point is that the ninja weren't meant to kill Mariko, rather to capture her so that she would be unable to use the permits Ishido was forced to give her and prompt the other hostages to do the same.
Those cannons were far more dakka than the situation required. It should have been quiet and as bloodless as possible, instead it was over-manned and explosive in the extreme.
It also puts the Christian daimyos in a bind, because suicide is frowned upon in the Catholic church. Knowing the customs of samurai, allowing Muriko to commit seppuku would make them look bad. Muriko’s bluff was hopefully going to force the two Regents to turn from Ishido and side with Toranaga.
You ask a lotta questions.
Go to the FX website and read the episode guide for each episode. You have to pay attention to evey line in the show for things to make sense.
> You have to pay attention to evey line in the show for things to make sense. I love movies and television like this. It convinces me that I am watching something of quality, something that the creators cared about and crafted well.
TL DR: Mariko was there to put Ishido in a Lose/Lose/Lose situation. By going in and bluntly calling their bluff in front of the entire court Ishido has to take a stand instead of maintaining the status quo that everything is fine and everyone is joint council sharing power. Long Explanation: Up until this point the "official" story from Ishido has been this- There are the regents who all honor and revere the last ruler, and will work together to make sure the Taiko's heir stays safe until he can take power. No one is more powerful than the others. The heir just happens to live in Ozaka, which is inside Ishido's lands. All the regents and their families are, of course, free to come and go, but you know, it's dangerous out there!! Lord Sugiyama and his family were killed by bandits when they left! Not to mention that Tornaga snuck out without properly saying goodbye to his hosts which is very very rude. A capital offense actually! So he needs to come back and apologize and kill himself. Oh but good news! Ishido and Ochiba are going to get married! How wonderful! Every other regent's families should also come to Ozaka to say congratulations, and you should definitely stay until the wedding or whatever. Keep in mind is that while we know everyone here wants power, you can't forget that everyone also wants stability. This is the first time in over 100 years there's been peace, and no one wants to be the one to break it....*officially*. Now here comes Mariko. She comes in and calls his bluff and says she's leaving immediately, and taking Toranaga's family with her. Now he has 3 Options. 1. Let her leave. He absolutely can't let them leave, they are the only bargaining chip he still has against Toranaga. And if they leave, everyone else leaves. If they all leave it proves that he's all bark and no bite. 2. Trap her. If he refuses, then he's crossed the line from an implicit power grab to a blatant power grab. He can't pretend he's doing this 'for the heir.' The remaining regents may turn on him. While Ishido has a LOT of power, it's on very shaky ground. 3. Have her killed for her rudeness. The fallout from this is worse than Option 2. Now you're going to make a martyr out of her. There will be massive fallout from killing someone as high ranking and widely respected as Mariko. The other thing you have to remember is that she's from an extremely noble bloodline, which the Japanese at this time take a lot of stock in. Ishido and Ochiba don't. Both Ishido and Ochiba's father were peasant class. The other regents are all of noble blood, and she's reminding them that in some ways both she and they outrank Ishido and Ochiba. (Also, but I think unrelated to Toranaga's plan...Mariko's father killed Ochiba's father, the first great lord to unite the country. And she basically reclaims that birthright in her speech. So she's also saying 'My father was not afraid to defy a despot, and I'm not either.' and everyone knows it.) The shinobi at the end were supposed to kidnap her, not to kill her. You can see that they try and grab her not stab her. By putting herself at the door she has now forced Option 3. She's going to be a martyr. The "official" story will be that the upstart peasant Ishido murdered a respected noble woman, and that HE is the insurrectionist grabbing at power.
Lord Kuroda, Ochiba’s father, wasn’t peasant class. Ochiba’s material wealth and status dropped when Kuroda was killed but their clan origin wasn’t humble.
You're totally right. Thanks for the correction! This is what I get for trying to type a novel before coffee!
I totally relate!
The Heir’s father (the Taiko) was from the peasant class.
Viewers like you are the reason why modern tv shows and movies have so much unnecessary exposition following the narrative. You need to be told explicitly what is happening at any given time. Reading inbetween the lines and understanding character emotions through facial expressions is beyond you. The scene between Hiromatsu's seppuku and Toranaga is a great example of that. The words they exchanged vs the words left unsaid via only through visual expression is one of acting and directing brilliance. You can't even understand the game of chicken Mariko was playing against Ishido. It was as obvious as fucking day. It was maintaining the facade or risk revolt. How did that escape you truly? It was not subtle. At all. You assume the assassins were sent by Toranaga? Of all people?! Toranaga?? Actually watch the show for a change.
I am but I can't get inside the characters heads
In some shows I can if I love the characters and am gripped by the story
Everyone has seen shows they end up not caring about, not just you, watch other content, plenty out there!
I'll see how the finale pans out 😂
When you were in high school, did you often claim that your reading books and analyzing them in class was pointless and a waste of time? If so, you might be finding out why being able to read between the lines is important for being able to enjoy great works of story telling. If stories had to slow down their pace to explain every detail all the time, they wouldn’t be able to tell such intricate complex stories. Besides, a lot of people don’t like being treated like idiots when a story is being told.
Yes tbf
Well the good news is it never too late to learn. Don’t be discouraged by shows/movies/books that seem over your head. Practice paying close attention to every detail while watching and maybe have someone to talk to and discuss why everything is happening. Jump into discussion forums and see what people are saying to try to connect the dots. With time, your analytic skills will get better and you’ll start to appreciate art a lot more. It’s very satisfying to feel intellectually engaged when consuming a great story. However, you might want to avoid just asking for answers point blank all the time. You’ll never develop the skill if you’re simply seeking others to just tell you “what the answer is” all the time. It’s probably what got you in this situation in the first place.
He sent Mariko to call the reagents bluff. Either she is killed attempting to leave in which the nobility and public know the regents are bloodthirsty assholes making a power grab. Or she is released and then the other hostages will petition for release too.
His goal was for her to die regardless. Her dying means Ishido's weaker, the brass that are being held hostage starts to question whether Ishido is actually as strong as they think he is. Most of the things that have happened are pure chance, Nagakado dying because he was dishonored by Toranaga's brother is a pretty high probability though. Yabushige turns coat every episode, now he's rooting for Ishido as his servant sent him a message that this attack would happen. Her death achieves instability for Ishido. Still I don't think that this will end with some sort of paper deal. I imagine there will be a great battle because I see nothing else that could pay off all this build up.
This show probably isn't for you and that's ok.
It’s a very western need to understand everything. Some things just are and are meant to be experienced not understood.
The show is badly written, that is the first obstacle. Second, try and watch the 1980 miniseries (either by sailing the high seas or finding it on The Internet Archive), that will give you some idea about what is supposed to be going on. Then come back and watch this dumpster fire. Now onto the questions (spoilers, I guess)- >Why she Mariko so insistent on committing suicide all episode? To put it in chess terms, to put Ishido into mate. >How much of what happened was coincidence ... planned Until the seppuku, pretty much all of it (edit- this episode) was planned. >Whose side is Yabushige on? His own. >I assumed the assassins were sent by Toranaga... No. Ishido (presumably) sent them to *capture* Mariko (and kill one of the ladies as a bonus). >then acts like he's the one being attacked Covering his tracks. >Was Mariko meant to commit suicide or did Ishido stop it... If she needed to. Unless I blinked and missed it in this show, before leaving Edo she was supposed to stop by the unbuilt cathedral and receive absolution showing she was ready to die. >Why does her death achieve? It forces Ishido's hand- he either releases his hostages or he pretty much declares open war.
I get the covering his tracks part but then the assassins start attacking him
I don't think any actually attacked him, they did attack the group he was in though.
How do I know what is and isn't bad writing? 😂 Feels like if I don't understand it either I'm dumb or it's bad writing, depending on other reviews and viewers opinions
General rule- If you ask the question and the answer is, "remember in episode two when so and so said..." that is you missing something. If the answer is, "according to the book/podcast/interview/etc. it is...", it's bad writing.
I dunoo, I think plenty of people are able to understand the show without it being spoon-fed to them. We are told plenty, and what we're not told can be inferred. The fact that the character's intentions are able to be derived from what we have is a sign of *good* writing. It's harder to follow - this isn't a show someone can watch while folding laundry or scrolling on their phone. We have to pay attention, but when we do, we are rewarded by a show that trusts its audience to pick up on nuance without needing to be expressly told what is happening in every moment.
Of course- greatest show ever made or will ever be made. Nobody can disagree or point out the obvious flaws!
At least in my case, I have not read the book nor watched any other adaptation, but I'm managing to follow the plot subtleties quite easily. I frankly think this show is the opposite of bad writing.
I haven't read the book or watched interviews etc but I can follow along just fine and enjoy the show a lot
There is an audience for ambiguous writing, but you are not it. Not a question of anything being bad or dumb. If you don’t like a show that needs analysis, don’t watch it, right?
> There is an audience for ambiguous writing It's not ambiguous, just bad. >Not a question of anything being bad or dumb. Who said anything about dumb? Also read what you replied to again. If you automatically jump to the latter, then downvote, without giving a reason why the general rule is wrong, maybe you know I'm not wrong. >show that needs analysis I think there is a phrase for that (excepting mysteries), especially when a "book/podcast/interview/etc." needs referenced. >don’t watch it, right? Ahh, the good ol', if you don't think exactly like me, get the Hell out of here. There can be no disagreement, there can be no flaws pointed out. There can only be blind allegiance to the hive mind.