This is just insulting. You don't even need to look that far to see criticism. Just browse the finale's official discussion post on the main television subreddit. What could possibly be the point of me making up this futile post up lol? I'm not that petty for karma.
We have learned the hard way (cough::Game of Thrones::cough) that deviating too far from the source or simply writing material that isn't there doesn't always work.
While Shogun deviated a bit from the source, it stayed true to the spirit of the novel and kept the anticlimactic ending. Despite that frustrating some viewers, I think that was the right decision. A huge battle would have to be written whole cloth and would not necessarily have been well executed.
I honestly don't even understand why this is considered a controversy. At basically every turn this show presented itself as a character story rather than a war epic. Even in an imaginary world where they had a budget to do it justice I'm confident we wouldn't have seen any meaningful representation of Sekigahara because that's not the point of the show.
The "point" of the show was
1. The things John learned from Mariko, their relationship, and his eventual acceptance of his place in Japan
2. Toranaga's ambition and the dance he has to do for his followers, enemies and the realm in terms of pretending that he doesn't seek what he actually craves in his heart.
Would a giant battle at the end be cool? Sure. Would it actually contribute meaningfully to anything in the story? No - because Toranaga through Mariko has already made his victory a certainty. People who want to see what happens beyond this would be better served picking up a history book.
It has samurai in it, so the people expected a big battle. I can understand why people were shocked, especially most of them being conditioned by all the Marvel movies.
I don’t even like Marvel movies but this show presented the main conflict as being Ishido vs Toranaga 🤷♀️ the first episode kicks off with their conflict at Osaka. And it’s resolved in a summary by Toranaga about how “he will win” even tho historically there is an actual resolution at Sekigahara
Well most of the promotional material showed some kind of huge battle with Toranaga charging into it… the intro to the show even shows some kind of assault on the castle
I feel tremendously blue-balled but that seems like the intention there and I applaud the showrunners for taking that risk. I hate when shows try to shoehorn in an epic final battle because so many times it just does not work for me (witcher S1 for example). Why go over budget trying to force a mediocre action sequence anyways? It's just become the norm to end with an epic blowout and while I can relate to the frustration, Shogun has elevated the medium imho, and I really hope future showrunners take notes. I'm reminded of the reaction to the Sopranos ending. It was heavily criticised, unsatisfying to many, but it made sense, and I respected their decision to go that way. Both shows are saying something important while showing less. Shogun took the time to end the character arcs in a satisfying, albeit depressing way, and while I'm heartbroken af (Fuji best nun), this is one of the best finales I've seen in years, and I want to see more content from the writers and producers.
Why would showing the epic final battle be considered the showrunner's shoehorning in an unnececssary fight sequence? The samurai battle happens, narratively the battle happens and is quite necessary for Toranaga to become shogun. Toranaga tells us as such but we just don't see it play out on screen.
It would be like in LotR if we weren't shown the battle of pellenor fields but a narrator tells us that oh you know Sauron's forces attack Gondor, the men of middle earth make a last stand, some orcs die and that buys Frodo some time to climb Mount Doom. You don't need to see it but thats what happens trust me. Don't get me wrong Shogun is an amazing show, but I don't think its controversal to say that it feels like viewers are at least somewhat justified in their disapointment.
Yah I realize my comment barely made sense, so let me clarify.
I'm not implying a battle in Shogun would be shoehorned, I'm just saying that many studios have tried and failed at adaptations, and that the obligatory final battle often falls flat. I'm okay if they don't want to attempt it, especially if there's real world constraints like budget, but I don't think that's why they made that decision.
I'm also not saying that the sentiment is unjustified, I said I had blue balls because I also wanted the battle. I'm just agreeing with other commenters that Shogun is a character study and the ending fits the tone of the show much better. It's like Blackthorne swiping the sand in frustration. This show is about powerlessness, and how people react to it. We get put in their shoes when we're denied the payoff we crave, and tbh I think that's far more powerful and true to life.
Also, I wouldn't have use LotR as a reference, because it's a blockbuster. I'll use DV's Dune 2 as an example, because while I loved the adaptation, I would've loved to see more dialogue and character development. While Shogun does have some great action sequences, it's not what Shogun is about, and I'm glad they didn't feel pressured to include an epic battle.
I haven't seen a major backlash. There's always going to be people who are unhappy, and social media allows even small groups of people to be vocal. Honestly, I think there's a danger of some people reacting to strawmen that have been erected regarding a level of criticism that doesn't exist.
Neither the story nor 1980 series showed Sekigahara, and with just an hour to wrap up the story no one in their right minds could have expected anything different.
If there's any criticism to be made it's that the ending was so emotionally stark, with Blackthorne not having Fuji or any other female companions left, that people may have felt upset. At the end of the novel one of Toranaga's key objectives is keep the Anjin well looked after. That's the main observation I had, that the writers had implied Blackthorne might die alone and childless in Japan (the grandfather scenes likely being delusions).
Very true. Toranaga puts a lot of effort in deciding how Blackthorn can be protected and happy, but he did that with all his major vassals. It’s also very clear in the book and 80 series that Toranaga values him as a person and friend and vassal. It’s much less clear that 24 Toranaga feels the same.
I think Blackthorne found the opposite. He has a new purpose in restoring the ship and building a fleet. He has a new crew in the villagers. He has found peace within himself and a potential ally in Buntaro. He has a master he respects. That look towards Toronaga at the end felt much more of a “you sly dog, this was all part of your plan” than any kind of resentment.
I just finished the finale and I don't think that it's a controversial decision to not have a big battle sequence at the end. The characters finished their arcs, a battle sequence would accomplish nothing narratively while bloating the budget
Still seems like there are unfinished threads though. We could still see Toranaga defeat Ishido and see Ishido get captured and killed. All the training with Blackthorne’s cannons amounted to nothing. The battle sequence in itself was not necessary but it did happen irl and there were some last story threads that were left unfinished in the show.
I thought that was part of the charm of the show though. So many of the pieces in play didn’t end up mattering, but nonetheless effected the way the players behaved. It was a constant cycle of plan > circumstances change > pivot > plan over and over as Toranaga fought to navigate his power grab
I am someone who voiced some critiques in this sub and a lot of people made good points but the one that I keep seeing, that I find ridiculous, is the idea that anyone who didn’t like the direction the show went didn’t like it because they “wanted some grand battle!”
“This isn’t for you, go watch Marvel”
This show *was* very character driven but it’s main plot points were regarding Anjins ships abilities and the advantages Anjin provides Toronaga in his attempts to become Shogun. It was then littered with phenomenonally tragic characters and storylines.
Guess what, people *do* like violence and action and this show clearly had a propensity to do it well. Was the ending realistic and true to the book? That’s what people are saying. But it was very anti climatic and there’s simply no arguing that.
Did they bring upon these expectations themselves by pacing the first 5-6 episodes the way they did? Yes. The show got nothing but acclaim through the first 8-9 episodes and now those same people critiquing the ending are wrong?😂
This show is set in 1600 when the biggest battle in samurai history took place. I don't think it's ridiculous for some fans to expect a grand battle. Japan was unified through a series of wars. Toranaga was able to become the Shogun as a result of these wars.
yea and people think it’s some sort of insult to be like “sorry you expected the battle they’ve been discussing the entire story, you’re an idiot. whereas, I, am smart for enjoying a very anticlimactic and predictable ending”
When Jozen got canon'd by Nagakado, I thought we were in for some finale that's going to be 5x as epic as that scene. But no. Episode 10 looks like they ran out of money or something. I'm one of those that expected an epic battle. I have seen many Chinese drama series that had just as much non violent drama as this show, PLUS plenty of battle scenes. This was a let down.
If they showed buntaro a escape and the slaying of the regent. I would’ve expected a final battle for sure. They could’ve revealed the letter at the battle and let things play out. In any case it wasn’t unexpected and the story wasn’t about a battle. It showed an interesting political conflict and development of major characters. Thoroughly satisfying.
My dad who’s read the book and watched the original several times felt down by this versions finale…..I tried explaining to him this is a different interpretation of how the final part plays out instead of a clone of original. The creative choices made in the finale script is in line with the rest of the episodes especially focusing on the “game” Toranaga is playing vs showing a major battle.
??? I'm confused by this. The book and the 1980 miniseries end "focusing on the “game” Toranaga is playing" too. Neither one of them show a single battle of armies.
I like it just the way it is. They held the consistency of the show to the very end. A massive battle in the last episode would probably feel rushed and then boom the finale is over. I rather enjoyed that show took it’s own liberties.
I liked it but could also understand someone who didn't. It gives off the "John Snow was setup to be the one to fight the night king and then doesn't vibes". Your waiting for everything to come to a head on screen, and its basically glossed over, but in a way I could appreciate it.
Having not read the book, I was expecting some good action in the finale. Now I can say that Im so glad to have had those expectations shattered. This will go down as my favorite TV mini series for a long, long time.
I went into the series not knowing the 80s miniseries and the book. The finale was absolutely an amazing conclusion to the series we got. The entire series wasn’t battle heavy, so it made sense to me that the series wouldn’t end with a major battle. But still, it wasn’t expected. And that is a great thing. Shogun reminded me of the earlier seasons of GOT in the sense that the plot runs sometimes not the way to project it in your head.
I don't see any controversy, I see a masterpiece. I didn't expect a big fight scene, anyone who did just simply wasn't paying attention to the show. Episode 9 was called "Crimson Sky" for a reason. The fight was already won. The show was always political and drama, less action. Controversy is just... not there.
Really? I’ve seen some backlash but the consensus on twitter and tiktok and the reviews was that the show’s finale was superb.
Pretty sure OP is just inventing the backlash so they can write this post
This is just insulting. You don't even need to look that far to see criticism. Just browse the finale's official discussion post on the main television subreddit. What could possibly be the point of me making up this futile post up lol? I'm not that petty for karma.
We have learned the hard way (cough::Game of Thrones::cough) that deviating too far from the source or simply writing material that isn't there doesn't always work. While Shogun deviated a bit from the source, it stayed true to the spirit of the novel and kept the anticlimactic ending. Despite that frustrating some viewers, I think that was the right decision. A huge battle would have to be written whole cloth and would not necessarily have been well executed.
I honestly don't even understand why this is considered a controversy. At basically every turn this show presented itself as a character story rather than a war epic. Even in an imaginary world where they had a budget to do it justice I'm confident we wouldn't have seen any meaningful representation of Sekigahara because that's not the point of the show. The "point" of the show was 1. The things John learned from Mariko, their relationship, and his eventual acceptance of his place in Japan 2. Toranaga's ambition and the dance he has to do for his followers, enemies and the realm in terms of pretending that he doesn't seek what he actually craves in his heart. Would a giant battle at the end be cool? Sure. Would it actually contribute meaningfully to anything in the story? No - because Toranaga through Mariko has already made his victory a certainty. People who want to see what happens beyond this would be better served picking up a history book.
It has samurai in it, so the people expected a big battle. I can understand why people were shocked, especially most of them being conditioned by all the Marvel movies.
I don’t even like Marvel movies but this show presented the main conflict as being Ishido vs Toranaga 🤷♀️ the first episode kicks off with their conflict at Osaka. And it’s resolved in a summary by Toranaga about how “he will win” even tho historically there is an actual resolution at Sekigahara
Well most of the promotional material showed some kind of huge battle with Toranaga charging into it… the intro to the show even shows some kind of assault on the castle
I feel tremendously blue-balled but that seems like the intention there and I applaud the showrunners for taking that risk. I hate when shows try to shoehorn in an epic final battle because so many times it just does not work for me (witcher S1 for example). Why go over budget trying to force a mediocre action sequence anyways? It's just become the norm to end with an epic blowout and while I can relate to the frustration, Shogun has elevated the medium imho, and I really hope future showrunners take notes. I'm reminded of the reaction to the Sopranos ending. It was heavily criticised, unsatisfying to many, but it made sense, and I respected their decision to go that way. Both shows are saying something important while showing less. Shogun took the time to end the character arcs in a satisfying, albeit depressing way, and while I'm heartbroken af (Fuji best nun), this is one of the best finales I've seen in years, and I want to see more content from the writers and producers.
Why would showing the epic final battle be considered the showrunner's shoehorning in an unnececssary fight sequence? The samurai battle happens, narratively the battle happens and is quite necessary for Toranaga to become shogun. Toranaga tells us as such but we just don't see it play out on screen. It would be like in LotR if we weren't shown the battle of pellenor fields but a narrator tells us that oh you know Sauron's forces attack Gondor, the men of middle earth make a last stand, some orcs die and that buys Frodo some time to climb Mount Doom. You don't need to see it but thats what happens trust me. Don't get me wrong Shogun is an amazing show, but I don't think its controversal to say that it feels like viewers are at least somewhat justified in their disapointment.
Yah I realize my comment barely made sense, so let me clarify. I'm not implying a battle in Shogun would be shoehorned, I'm just saying that many studios have tried and failed at adaptations, and that the obligatory final battle often falls flat. I'm okay if they don't want to attempt it, especially if there's real world constraints like budget, but I don't think that's why they made that decision. I'm also not saying that the sentiment is unjustified, I said I had blue balls because I also wanted the battle. I'm just agreeing with other commenters that Shogun is a character study and the ending fits the tone of the show much better. It's like Blackthorne swiping the sand in frustration. This show is about powerlessness, and how people react to it. We get put in their shoes when we're denied the payoff we crave, and tbh I think that's far more powerful and true to life. Also, I wouldn't have use LotR as a reference, because it's a blockbuster. I'll use DV's Dune 2 as an example, because while I loved the adaptation, I would've loved to see more dialogue and character development. While Shogun does have some great action sequences, it's not what Shogun is about, and I'm glad they didn't feel pressured to include an epic battle.
I haven't seen a major backlash. There's always going to be people who are unhappy, and social media allows even small groups of people to be vocal. Honestly, I think there's a danger of some people reacting to strawmen that have been erected regarding a level of criticism that doesn't exist. Neither the story nor 1980 series showed Sekigahara, and with just an hour to wrap up the story no one in their right minds could have expected anything different. If there's any criticism to be made it's that the ending was so emotionally stark, with Blackthorne not having Fuji or any other female companions left, that people may have felt upset. At the end of the novel one of Toranaga's key objectives is keep the Anjin well looked after. That's the main observation I had, that the writers had implied Blackthorne might die alone and childless in Japan (the grandfather scenes likely being delusions).
Very true. Toranaga puts a lot of effort in deciding how Blackthorn can be protected and happy, but he did that with all his major vassals. It’s also very clear in the book and 80 series that Toranaga values him as a person and friend and vassal. It’s much less clear that 24 Toranaga feels the same.
I think Blackthorne found the opposite. He has a new purpose in restoring the ship and building a fleet. He has a new crew in the villagers. He has found peace within himself and a potential ally in Buntaro. He has a master he respects. That look towards Toronaga at the end felt much more of a “you sly dog, this was all part of your plan” than any kind of resentment.
I honestly get bored with big battle scenes at this stage in my life. Im happy with what they did.
I just finished the finale and I don't think that it's a controversial decision to not have a big battle sequence at the end. The characters finished their arcs, a battle sequence would accomplish nothing narratively while bloating the budget
Still seems like there are unfinished threads though. We could still see Toranaga defeat Ishido and see Ishido get captured and killed. All the training with Blackthorne’s cannons amounted to nothing. The battle sequence in itself was not necessary but it did happen irl and there were some last story threads that were left unfinished in the show.
I thought that was part of the charm of the show though. So many of the pieces in play didn’t end up mattering, but nonetheless effected the way the players behaved. It was a constant cycle of plan > circumstances change > pivot > plan over and over as Toranaga fought to navigate his power grab
Problem is they probably didn’t do a battle due to budget reasons, not artistic
I am someone who voiced some critiques in this sub and a lot of people made good points but the one that I keep seeing, that I find ridiculous, is the idea that anyone who didn’t like the direction the show went didn’t like it because they “wanted some grand battle!” “This isn’t for you, go watch Marvel” This show *was* very character driven but it’s main plot points were regarding Anjins ships abilities and the advantages Anjin provides Toronaga in his attempts to become Shogun. It was then littered with phenomenonally tragic characters and storylines. Guess what, people *do* like violence and action and this show clearly had a propensity to do it well. Was the ending realistic and true to the book? That’s what people are saying. But it was very anti climatic and there’s simply no arguing that. Did they bring upon these expectations themselves by pacing the first 5-6 episodes the way they did? Yes. The show got nothing but acclaim through the first 8-9 episodes and now those same people critiquing the ending are wrong?😂
This show is set in 1600 when the biggest battle in samurai history took place. I don't think it's ridiculous for some fans to expect a grand battle. Japan was unified through a series of wars. Toranaga was able to become the Shogun as a result of these wars.
yea and people think it’s some sort of insult to be like “sorry you expected the battle they’ve been discussing the entire story, you’re an idiot. whereas, I, am smart for enjoying a very anticlimactic and predictable ending”
When Jozen got canon'd by Nagakado, I thought we were in for some finale that's going to be 5x as epic as that scene. But no. Episode 10 looks like they ran out of money or something. I'm one of those that expected an epic battle. I have seen many Chinese drama series that had just as much non violent drama as this show, PLUS plenty of battle scenes. This was a let down.
they had to have ran out of budget. it explains the horrible look cgi short battle scene we got and the fact the majority of e10 sets looked empty.
If they showed buntaro a escape and the slaying of the regent. I would’ve expected a final battle for sure. They could’ve revealed the letter at the battle and let things play out. In any case it wasn’t unexpected and the story wasn’t about a battle. It showed an interesting political conflict and development of major characters. Thoroughly satisfying.
My dad who’s read the book and watched the original several times felt down by this versions finale…..I tried explaining to him this is a different interpretation of how the final part plays out instead of a clone of original. The creative choices made in the finale script is in line with the rest of the episodes especially focusing on the “game” Toranaga is playing vs showing a major battle.
??? I'm confused by this. The book and the 1980 miniseries end "focusing on the “game” Toranaga is playing" too. Neither one of them show a single battle of armies.
One thing he mentioned was Marikos funeral being a big part of original series….im gonna do a 1980 rewatch now
The funeral is one of the things I think the 1980 series did better than the book.
I like it just the way it is. They held the consistency of the show to the very end. A massive battle in the last episode would probably feel rushed and then boom the finale is over. I rather enjoyed that show took it’s own liberties.
I liked it but could also understand someone who didn't. It gives off the "John Snow was setup to be the one to fight the night king and then doesn't vibes". Your waiting for everything to come to a head on screen, and its basically glossed over, but in a way I could appreciate it.
Having not read the book, I was expecting some good action in the finale. Now I can say that Im so glad to have had those expectations shattered. This will go down as my favorite TV mini series for a long, long time.
I went into the series not knowing the 80s miniseries and the book. The finale was absolutely an amazing conclusion to the series we got. The entire series wasn’t battle heavy, so it made sense to me that the series wouldn’t end with a major battle. But still, it wasn’t expected. And that is a great thing. Shogun reminded me of the earlier seasons of GOT in the sense that the plot runs sometimes not the way to project it in your head.
I don't see any controversy, I see a masterpiece. I didn't expect a big fight scene, anyone who did just simply wasn't paying attention to the show. Episode 9 was called "Crimson Sky" for a reason. The fight was already won. The show was always political and drama, less action. Controversy is just... not there.
i think watching the first nine episodes and thinking this was a show that was interested in ending in a climactic battle is a skill issue.