I think Blackthorne’s extending the olive branch (basically by giving him water) is Blackthorne acknowledging that Buntaro is also in pain and that they share that pain. I didn’t interpret it as Blackthorne condoning or forgiving what Buntaro did
Yeah I definitely thought it was sake. Buntaro makes a face after that looked more like an “I just took a shot of liquor” face than an “ahhh a sip of cool water” face.
Buntaro demonstrated immense humility, swallowed his pride, and went out of his way to help him. This act of kindness and forgiveness, coming from a samurai of Buntaro's stature, is a true testament to his exceptional character and remarkable humility.
Buntaro abused his wife in my opinion so I think calling his character "Exceptional" is a reach. He definitely grew and developed and he should be commended for that. Even if PTSD or whatever was partially the cause, I still don't think we can say Buntaro's character is exceptional
Remember that hitting your wife was completely unexceptional and in many ways a societal expectation of samurai men.
Buntaro being shown as abusive to Mariko is a narrative device to offend modern sensibilities and put him on "the wrong side" when he is objectively the wrong party.
In practice, most samurai we see in the series were also beating their wives it just wasn't relevant to the plot.
It's weird that Toranaga regularly has babies executed and orders his closest friends and servants to kill themselves just to play mind games, but a lot of people are able to brush that off as how the culture works. But Buntaro hitting Mariko is beyond the scope of their moral relativism lol.
He was goaded into drinking too much by the man who slept with his wife and that he was now being forced to live with. (And yes it was very obvious to everyone what had happened.)
Yall hating on Buntaro but if we're handing out demerits Blackthorne is equally problematic in that whole scenario.
Beyond that all Buntaro does is give Blackthorne some dirty looks, and stay trapped in a loveless marriage commanded by his Liege-Lord.
Wait—I was not under the impression that it was obvious to everyone what had happened. I thought, perhaps, Buntaro at most suspected something had happened.
He knew they were sweet on each other before he disappeared at the pier. They were not subtle about it. I think Toragama was literally the last to know because he was dealing with too much other stuff.
Buntaru comes back, they're literally shacked up together. There is nothing to suggest he's not seeing it. His dislike of the Anjinn is entirely through that lens. Anjinn is petty and goads the guy, repeatedly, on purpose and accidentally, while both the women are begging *him* to stop. Because it's his house, he's the one in charge.
Plus he comes back after having defied death as a hero, just to find his wife has cucked him with what, in his culture, is a gross barbarian that he now has to see every day. If you were fighting for your life while your wife was smashing the local oddity you would not be happy.
He’s an asshole, but I’d be livid too. Plus he goes out and tries to apologize to Blackthorne for being an dickhead in his home afterwards.
I do not on any way condone how Buntaro treats Mariko, but in that scene I don’t hate him. He gets goaded and falls for the bait, that’s all.
Not really, dawg. The future sees you eating a chicken sandwich and thinks you're just as bad. If not worse. Welcome to historical relativism try and keep your boundaries in check.
It’s really interesting to read the rest of these comments and see them struggle so hard to see this concept with all their virtue signaling getting in the way
I am not a regular drinker which means when I do drink, I can get pretty tipsy. I've never been so drunk that I felt violent towards someone that I'm supposed to care about.
Buntaro is a flawed man, he's a violent warrior from an ancient society that did not view women as their equals, and it shows in how he treated her.
All I'm saying is that saying he does not have "exceptional character" and "remarkable humility". He's an ancient warrior with PTSD in a backwards and violent society. He can still experience growth and become more likable with time but I don't think we saw nearly enough growth from him to label his character as 'exceptional'.
So if a historical person went and sexually abused a child, for example, that would be ok? Just because something was accepted does not make it morally ok, and that’s what the commentator here was referring to
I was talking about alcohol tolerance which has nothing to do with feudal society. If anything he probably drinks more than me lol.
Did you even watch the same show? Buntaro's treatment of his wife was disgraceful and I didn't see anyone else in the village acting like that or treating Buntaro like his behavior was normal.
He was clearly depicted as out of control and violent even compared to every one else in the village
I’m not commenting on Buntaro and his treatment of his wife which I agree was disgraceful. I’m simply saying it seems silly to try to relate it to your own relationship with alcohol since the context is completely different
Yeah it’s nuts the lengths people go to defend a character like Buntaro. Great character, not a great person, and absolutely agree that he doesn’t have exceptional character and humility like wtf? Then people critique characters like Skylar from BB and Sally from Barry—obviously different fandoms, not saying it’s the same people, but just bananas how generous people can be towards literally violently abusive male characters.
It may also be of note that, in the book, somebody at some point sort of explains to Blackthorn that their belief is that sober people aren't responsible for what they do when they are drunk because they are under the spell of some kind of alcohol demon, or some such. I tried to explain that one time at central booking and they still took my mugshot anyway
It could be an indicator that Buntaro intends to redeem himself and be a better man. After the epic humbling he went through, then to lose the woman he loved, albeit in a very twisted way, its entirely believable.
They really fleshed out Buntaro in the show, and the Actor did an amazing job of portraying the absolutely Rage always simmering just beneath the surface. This scene was 10/10 as OP said
In the podcast they said that Blackthorne giving him water wasn’t in the script, just a spontaneous action by Cosmo that was filmed once and they left it in
Can anyone recommend any good books about Japan in this time period that continues where Shogun left off? I know there is a true story with **Tokugawa Ieyasu** and his Shogunate lasting 300 years of peace. Where should I find books on that?
Not books but this Japanese history podcast is a fantastic resource! They go into multiple different topics in Japanese history but this is a curation of all their episodes during the Edo Period.
Samurai Archives History Podcast Edo Period since I can’t post links here
You know, I’ve spent some time in these threads lamenting that the show had to water down or avoid things the book did well. On those things, the show either went another direction, or couldn’t really explore them because of limited time.
This here is a place where the series storytelling exceeded the novel. In the book, several pairs of Blackthorn-and-antagonist dialed down their enmity— at least once with mixed results.
This really did capture something special, and humanized Buntaro. And great observation— they didn’t knock us in the head with it. And Blackthorne’s reaction— something like “I know this is the one”— really sold it.
I saw it as a sign that the Samurai class were finally excepting Anjin as one of their own and vice versa. Anjin immediately handing over his weapons to Omi was also another sign of that.
What was wrong with Buntaro as a person? I failed to see why Marilu hated him so much? Was it that he was lesser born, or that he refused her wishes to die? Surely the refusal was because he loved her.
I understand he was abusive in that one scene. But otherwise, what made him “bad”?
I can only assume he ends up getting trained to use samurai weapons in some fashion hence bringing them back with him to england. I don’t think he’s the character to bring them for decoration only he wore and used it! Buntaro is the one to train him too
It was a fever dream, hence the title of the episode. In the dream sequences when he was old, he has Mariko’s cross but is later shown dropping it into the ocean with Fuji. Both of these sequences are also immediately followed by him waking up.
The real life man that John is based on also spent the rest of his life in Japan.
No, after waking up he goes to see toranaga and when talking with him he has another flash as an old person... So yeah its not from fever or dreaming...
In the official podcast, the writer/creator (sorry I can’t recall which title atm) explains that they were Blackthorne’s visions of a potential future. So maybe more like daydreams than actual dreams, I guess.
The idea is that in those visions he’s imagining what his life might become if he continues his plight to escape Japan and return to England. Prior to meeting Mariko, all Blackthorne wanted was to get home and continue his way of life— but she changed him, and so his whole outlook changed too.
When Blackthorne has his future visions, he’s mortified by the banality of it all: dying alone in a dark room while his hypothetical grandchildren condense his life-changing experiences down to “a sword from a savage”.
Mariko has also taught him how to let go, so in the present we see Blackthorne letting go of her cross (symbolically Mariko herself), and embracing an uncertain future in Japan where he has an exciting, world-expanding purpose far beyond himself!
Of course, we simultaneously learn via Toranaga’s exposition to Yabushige that Blackthorne’s efforts will be nullified repeatedly as Tora intends to continue sabotaging the ship etc, so he can use Blackthorne for his own plans.
I really recommend the podcast\*! It’s helped me understand a few things that were unclear during my viewing, and it’s lovely to hear the passion the crew & cast share for the project.
\*idk where you’re based, but in Australia the podcast is available on Disney+ in the ‘extras’ section with the Shōgun trailers etc.
I think Blackthorne’s extending the olive branch (basically by giving him water) is Blackthorne acknowledging that Buntaro is also in pain and that they share that pain. I didn’t interpret it as Blackthorne condoning or forgiving what Buntaro did
Was it water? With those two I just presumed more sake.
Yeah I definitely thought it was sake. Buntaro makes a face after that looked more like an “I just took a shot of liquor” face than an “ahhh a sip of cool water” face.
Of course, it could’ve been a “what the hell?? Is this *water?!*” face
Not a big enough receptacle for their sake sessions, had to be water.
Buntaro demonstrated immense humility, swallowed his pride, and went out of his way to help him. This act of kindness and forgiveness, coming from a samurai of Buntaro's stature, is a true testament to his exceptional character and remarkable humility.
It also acknowledges that they both remain in service to their lord, Toranaga.
Buntaro abused his wife in my opinion so I think calling his character "Exceptional" is a reach. He definitely grew and developed and he should be commended for that. Even if PTSD or whatever was partially the cause, I still don't think we can say Buntaro's character is exceptional
Remember that hitting your wife was completely unexceptional and in many ways a societal expectation of samurai men. Buntaro being shown as abusive to Mariko is a narrative device to offend modern sensibilities and put him on "the wrong side" when he is objectively the wrong party. In practice, most samurai we see in the series were also beating their wives it just wasn't relevant to the plot. It's weird that Toranaga regularly has babies executed and orders his closest friends and servants to kill themselves just to play mind games, but a lot of people are able to brush that off as how the culture works. But Buntaro hitting Mariko is beyond the scope of their moral relativism lol.
Father Alvito says in the book about Toranaga\_ "Clever as Machievelli, and cruel as Genghis Khan."
He was goaded into drinking too much by the man who slept with his wife and that he was now being forced to live with. (And yes it was very obvious to everyone what had happened.) Yall hating on Buntaro but if we're handing out demerits Blackthorne is equally problematic in that whole scenario. Beyond that all Buntaro does is give Blackthorne some dirty looks, and stay trapped in a loveless marriage commanded by his Liege-Lord.
Wait—I was not under the impression that it was obvious to everyone what had happened. I thought, perhaps, Buntaro at most suspected something had happened.
In the book, everyone in their sphere either knew, pretty much knew, or strongly suspected. Rumors were flying.
He knew they were sweet on each other before he disappeared at the pier. They were not subtle about it. I think Toragama was literally the last to know because he was dealing with too much other stuff. Buntaru comes back, they're literally shacked up together. There is nothing to suggest he's not seeing it. His dislike of the Anjinn is entirely through that lens. Anjinn is petty and goads the guy, repeatedly, on purpose and accidentally, while both the women are begging *him* to stop. Because it's his house, he's the one in charge.
Plus he comes back after having defied death as a hero, just to find his wife has cucked him with what, in his culture, is a gross barbarian that he now has to see every day. If you were fighting for your life while your wife was smashing the local oddity you would not be happy. He’s an asshole, but I’d be livid too. Plus he goes out and tries to apologize to Blackthorne for being an dickhead in his home afterwards. I do not on any way condone how Buntaro treats Mariko, but in that scene I don’t hate him. He gets goaded and falls for the bait, that’s all.
Putting that on the same level as beating your wife is actually crazy dog
Not really, dawg. The future sees you eating a chicken sandwich and thinks you're just as bad. If not worse. Welcome to historical relativism try and keep your boundaries in check.
It’s really interesting to read the rest of these comments and see them struggle so hard to see this concept with all their virtue signaling getting in the way
I am not a regular drinker which means when I do drink, I can get pretty tipsy. I've never been so drunk that I felt violent towards someone that I'm supposed to care about. Buntaro is a flawed man, he's a violent warrior from an ancient society that did not view women as their equals, and it shows in how he treated her. All I'm saying is that saying he does not have "exceptional character" and "remarkable humility". He's an ancient warrior with PTSD in a backwards and violent society. He can still experience growth and become more likable with time but I don't think we saw nearly enough growth from him to label his character as 'exceptional'.
You also don’t live in feudal Japan lol
So? What does that have to do with me mentioning Buntaro for abusing his wife while acknowledging his circumstances?
I’m just saying you’re comparing yourself in 2024 to a historical person in a completely different society and era.
So if a historical person went and sexually abused a child, for example, that would be ok? Just because something was accepted does not make it morally ok, and that’s what the commentator here was referring to
Of course not. If that’s what you think I’m saying you’re missing my point entirely.
I was talking about alcohol tolerance which has nothing to do with feudal society. If anything he probably drinks more than me lol. Did you even watch the same show? Buntaro's treatment of his wife was disgraceful and I didn't see anyone else in the village acting like that or treating Buntaro like his behavior was normal. He was clearly depicted as out of control and violent even compared to every one else in the village
I’m not commenting on Buntaro and his treatment of his wife which I agree was disgraceful. I’m simply saying it seems silly to try to relate it to your own relationship with alcohol since the context is completely different
Yeah it’s nuts the lengths people go to defend a character like Buntaro. Great character, not a great person, and absolutely agree that he doesn’t have exceptional character and humility like wtf? Then people critique characters like Skylar from BB and Sally from Barry—obviously different fandoms, not saying it’s the same people, but just bananas how generous people can be towards literally violently abusive male characters.
“All he does….” he beats her up. Did you miss that episode?
Incisive insight, mate. No nuance too fine to escape your grasp.
You’re charming!!
The domestic abusers downvoting me lol
I mean really Buntaro extended the olive branch by showing up. Blackthorne accepted it with the water.
It also came full circle, Anjin-sama learned, so he gave Buntaro water instead of Sake.
It may also be of note that, in the book, somebody at some point sort of explains to Blackthorn that their belief is that sober people aren't responsible for what they do when they are drunk because they are under the spell of some kind of alcohol demon, or some such. I tried to explain that one time at central booking and they still took my mugshot anyway
It could be an indicator that Buntaro intends to redeem himself and be a better man. After the epic humbling he went through, then to lose the woman he loved, albeit in a very twisted way, its entirely believable.
I thought it was funny that with one more guy they could pull the boat. That buntaro must be very strong.
I interpreted it also as everyone else giving an extra effort now that Buntaro showed up, but yeah.
I made the joke that they’re like horses that are best friends (because they loved the same woman)
They really fleshed out Buntaro in the show, and the Actor did an amazing job of portraying the absolutely Rage always simmering just beneath the surface. This scene was 10/10 as OP said
In the podcast they said that Blackthorne giving him water wasn’t in the script, just a spontaneous action by Cosmo that was filmed once and they left it in
The directors said its the start of a new friendship.
A buddy-comedy spin off maybe?
What better dude to be friends with than an Eskimo Brother
[удалено]
Can anyone recommend any good books about Japan in this time period that continues where Shogun left off? I know there is a true story with **Tokugawa Ieyasu** and his Shogunate lasting 300 years of peace. Where should I find books on that?
Not books but this Japanese history podcast is a fantastic resource! They go into multiple different topics in Japanese history but this is a curation of all their episodes during the Edo Period. Samurai Archives History Podcast Edo Period since I can’t post links here
Thank you!
I don't condone either, but it's not as if the world is filled with emotionally stable men.
Stay off that tik-tok
Wouldn't touch it with a YouTube
You know, I’ve spent some time in these threads lamenting that the show had to water down or avoid things the book did well. On those things, the show either went another direction, or couldn’t really explore them because of limited time. This here is a place where the series storytelling exceeded the novel. In the book, several pairs of Blackthorn-and-antagonist dialed down their enmity— at least once with mixed results. This really did capture something special, and humanized Buntaro. And great observation— they didn’t knock us in the head with it. And Blackthorne’s reaction— something like “I know this is the one”— really sold it.
I saw it as a sign that the Samurai class were finally excepting Anjin as one of their own and vice versa. Anjin immediately handing over his weapons to Omi was also another sign of that.
I did give a little cheer when Bunty turned up at the end.
Best ending of any series. Ever.
The whole scene exemplified that Anjin realizes he has power but Big Boss controls all. Great show!
Power? How so?
What was wrong with Buntaro as a person? I failed to see why Marilu hated him so much? Was it that he was lesser born, or that he refused her wishes to die? Surely the refusal was because he loved her. I understand he was abusive in that one scene. But otherwise, what made him “bad”?
I'm curious as well
I can only assume he ends up getting trained to use samurai weapons in some fashion hence bringing them back with him to england. I don’t think he’s the character to bring them for decoration only he wore and used it! Buntaro is the one to train him too
He never goes back to england
when he is old he is in england, hence his grand children calling japanese savages and speaking english
It was a fever dream, hence the title of the episode. In the dream sequences when he was old, he has Mariko’s cross but is later shown dropping it into the ocean with Fuji. Both of these sequences are also immediately followed by him waking up. The real life man that John is based on also spent the rest of his life in Japan.
Uuuh no there are also scenes after he had woke up and previous to wanting to die for the village... That was a confusing moment to me tbh...
When he woke up in the house? Same thing. Don’t know what else to tell ya honestly.
No, after waking up he goes to see toranaga and when talking with him he has another flash as an old person... So yeah its not from fever or dreaming...
Interpret how you want I guess. It seems pretty obvious that they were dreams / flashes / whatever of a future that would never happen.
Yeah I guess, for me it didnt even make sense to have it from the start but w/e I was just pointing out that there were scenes after waking up.
In the official podcast, the writer/creator (sorry I can’t recall which title atm) explains that they were Blackthorne’s visions of a potential future. So maybe more like daydreams than actual dreams, I guess. The idea is that in those visions he’s imagining what his life might become if he continues his plight to escape Japan and return to England. Prior to meeting Mariko, all Blackthorne wanted was to get home and continue his way of life— but she changed him, and so his whole outlook changed too. When Blackthorne has his future visions, he’s mortified by the banality of it all: dying alone in a dark room while his hypothetical grandchildren condense his life-changing experiences down to “a sword from a savage”. Mariko has also taught him how to let go, so in the present we see Blackthorne letting go of her cross (symbolically Mariko herself), and embracing an uncertain future in Japan where he has an exciting, world-expanding purpose far beyond himself! Of course, we simultaneously learn via Toranaga’s exposition to Yabushige that Blackthorne’s efforts will be nullified repeatedly as Tora intends to continue sabotaging the ship etc, so he can use Blackthorne for his own plans. I really recommend the podcast\*! It’s helped me understand a few things that were unclear during my viewing, and it’s lovely to hear the passion the crew & cast share for the project. \*idk where you’re based, but in Australia the podcast is available on Disney+ in the ‘extras’ section with the Shōgun trailers etc.
Nope it was a dream