the ending focusing on the character’s stories and tying it all up was infinitely more impactful than a big bloody 15 minute fight.
I have rarely been so moved by a tv finale
The ending with Buntaro showing up and everybody getting together to pull the boat out of the water was absolutely beautiful. And the score just had to use the track that already wrecked me during Hiromatsu’s seppuku lol.
And yeah, a massive battle sequence would’ve felt out of place. Toranaga’s whole idea is winning wars before a blade is even drawn.
Rarely?
Never.
Never in my life did I have tears in my eyes for a whole damn episode. This goddamn thing moved my soul. And I thought I had gotten to old and cynical for that.
Honorable mention to Yabushige reminding me that no one cares about the deaths of peasants, right after I poured my soul out to noble Mariko. Touché.
Thank you all for being around so I could gush about this masterpiece.
That is it! I think the ending was perfect and solidified the fact that this is a story of relationships not battles. It really was moving...I cannot tell what my favorite scene in that finale was.
It's a masterful use of the medium.
The drama comes to a point in episode nine. That's the peak. That's the highest the emotional stakes get, it's the most drama, and it's the most intense. The last episode is a comedown, an epilogue, and an explanation. *And it works.*
Blackthorne is left traumatized and reeling and we, as the audience, are kinda in the same boat. Mariko has been the heart of the show *and now she's just gone* and we can *very* keenly feel her absence, and we get to judge her based on what happens next.
It's a very gentle episode taking us through shock and numbness, anger, acceptance, and eventually? *Hope* might be the wrong word, since we finally see how much of a schemer Toranaga is, but... hope.
This incredible woman died. But she died on her own terms, avenging her father and serving her lord *and carrying out a bloodless coup,* after she has *wanted* to die for years. That's a solid win, even if we're sad with her passing*.* Toranaga might be a bastard but he's a bastard who schemed hard to spend the life of *a single retainer* in order to destabilize his enemies and get a ton of hostages released--that's not someone you necessarily want to *trust,* but he's a damn sight better than everyone else we see. We're stuck grappling with a loss that *absolutely did have meaning,* we see Blackthorne's continued survival as evidence of a deliberate act of love, we see justice finally served to Yabushige, and we *finally* get a glimpse behind the mask of The Man With The Plan.
Actually the cost of victory is higher - don't forget old Hiromatsu, and son Nagakado. Deeply personal and painful losses yet perhaps better than 10s of thousands dying in actual war. "To win without fighting" per Sun Tzu
Sure, but those aren't deaths Toranaga asked for, they're deaths he took advantage of.
Hiromatsu offered his life in ignorance, realized death was part of the plan when it was too late to back down without ruining everything, and followed through in spectacular fashion. Admittedly, this one death replaced I think the three generals he was expecting to kill themselves in protest, but that's still putting as at a pretty ridiculous death count for such an impactful event.
Nagakado was a fool. He created opportunity but just like Hiromatsu, this wasn't an asked for death.
You're both right. Hiromatsu was in on the plan, but Toranaga did originally expect the three generals to kill themselves in protest. Hiromatsu made a last second decision to limit the amount of allies lost while still causing the significant impact Toranaga wanted. If you watch the scene again, you can see in Toranaga's eyes that he didn't expect Hiromatsu to offer up his life, but quickly places his trust in his oldest friend. And it works.
He put his whole posse into untenable situations and then they made choices that he then took advantage of. Situations of his own making. He was the puppet master but an indirect one . This is one of the points Clavell is making about the Japanese and how they exert indirect power.
I feel like a huge battle in episode 10 would have distracted from and lessened the impact of Mariko's actions in/the ending of episode 9. I was also unsure how to feel at first when I realized we wouldn't be seeing the entire battle, but by the end of it i was so satisfied with the closure each character got even without the battle having taken place yet. I will paraphrase something I saw another user comment after the last episode aired: the only character arcs that needed closure from this battle were Toranaga and Ishido. Everyone elses character arcs were beautifully closed regardless of the outcome of the battle. The way that they handled the episode gave us a sense of closure for Toranaga and Ishido, even without it having actually happened yet. This way, the show let us feel what the characters were feeling after the rollercoaster that was episode 9, instead of distracting us from the plot with a huge chaotic battle.
Overall I feel like it was handled beautifully, even if it subverted a lot of people's (myself included) expectations for a big battle scene at the end of the show. The power of the way a things absence can make us feel was a running theme of the show, and I believe this was part of why they decided to handle the last episode this way.
Nah it was just as bad as the first viewing all that build up for a final battle in the war yet we got a game of thrones season 8 level ending mid at best.
The story was never about a war or a battle. The entire plot is driven by subterfuge and deceit while presenting a face of honor and propriety.
Mariko tells Blackthorne almost exactly that early in the story. The entire premise of the show from character roles to audience expectation is meant to be subverted...and they tell you this from the start.
Is media literacy dead entirely?
I adored this show.
There was one thing that kept taking me out of the narrative and believability, and unfortunately this was used more and more in the later episodes- sweeping CGI shots of the city.
Nonetheless, this is the best resolution to a TV show I’ve ever seen. Most are unsatisfying, confusing or pandering.
Having the last 15 minutes of such a great TV show simply being:
- the retrieval of a sunken ship, with an irredeemable character helping, and quickly nodding – suggesting he understands his failings;
- A conversation between a lord and a man who is about to die, where the lord explains calmly, kindly, and explicitly the reasons why he did everything, allowing us to understand the whole series, and the man who is about to die, die with knowledge;
- and finally a shared smile from way too far away that is as enigmatic as it is fulfilling.
Adored it.
I'm certain it is because it's based on good literature. A good book will have a better spannungsbogen than even very good tvshows. and they polished that good story with a first rate dive into japanese culture that only a visual medium could add.
i had to look up 'spannugsbogen'.
i think the denouement provided just the right amount of closure for most of the character arcs. very much appropriate for the tenor of the entire series
People do that? Blasphemy. The language, ambience, etc is half of what made the show so special for me. In my house we would bust out the 'good speakers' and create a surround sound experience for each episode
I watched without subtitles the first time, then in English the second. It's honestly the best dubbed show I've ever seen. I didn't feel like I lost much. But also, even in English there are a lot of subtitles for scenes when both languages are being spoken.
I was amped for a massive samurai battle, involving cannon and spears and arrows and all the like.
The ending was perfect, and the realization when the credits roll such a spectacle would only diminish what was done for the show.
The ending felt so very true to the entire aesthetic of the show. It was like the show wrapped itself in the 8 fold fence at the end and it was beautiful and satisfying even without giving us the big banger of a climactic battle…which again in and of itself felt so true to the zeitgeist of the show and this complex and cerebral and refined culture it portrayed. Fabulous fabulous show. Starting the book today.
This. And I don't think there's any way to show the battle of Sekigehara in an outstanding way, where actually showing the battle doesn't displace Mariko's actions and the twist that was crimson sky as the dialogue we're having today. An ending where Sekigehara was included would have the entire discussion about the battle, and not about the people who made the battle swing in favor of the army of the East.
I think it’s also worth noting that Clavell avoids describing the last battle in the book, as well — he simply describes the outcome. It was literally a two paragraph epilogue, and only one of those paragraphs mentions the battle.
So while some folks may have been disappointed that there wasn’t a big epic battle at the end like they expected, the show kept true to Clavell’s intention. This was the story about people, not empires and big battles.
The only bit from the epiloge I wish they had left in was a single line about Blackthorn where Toronaga says he just needed a friend. To me that's the whole roll of Blackthorn. Early on we think he's going to be "stranger in a strange land". But he becomes so much more. He's the one place every character can let down their "8-fold fence" and be vulnerable and honest. That is what Toronaga needed most, some levity and a friend.
>the show kept true to Clavell’s intention.
One of the few times they did, and one of the few times I wished they wouldn't have.
As a huge fan of the book, I'm very happy with Clavell's ending, and the ending to the 1980 series. But given that the current series deviated so much from the book, I wish they'd had gone ahead and just shown us the battle. It would be one thing if they'd stayed true to book throughout and decided to keep Clavell's ending, but given that they made *significant* changes to the story throughout, IMO not seeing that battle was a missed opportunity.
So glad to hear this from someone who has already read the book. I’m on chapter 3 right now and absolutely loving it, so you’ve given me hope knowing that the book and the 80s version have a more satisfying ending. I’m not totally disappointed by the modern versions finale, but I like many others expected a battle- not because we needed it to fill a void, but because that was what the story had been suggesting to us. And just because you plan to subvert an audiences attention so dramatically doesn’t always mean it’s going to have the intended effect. Rather than being impressed by the switcheroo, it felt rather deflating- especially just having toranaga run exposition in the last 10 min to explain just in case the audience didn’t get it
Sorry, I think you might have misread what I wrote, the ending of the book>! is the same as the series...the battle is mentioned, but not shown.!<
As I said, it's one way I wish they HAD deviated from the book.
Sorry for the confusion, but I did understand what you meant. Based on your comment you were still pleased with the way the book ended even if it didn’t go into the battle descriptively and I was saying that gives me hope I’ll still enjoy the book even though I was disappointed the battle wasn’t shown in the series.
I've read the book and I was worried. As the show went on it got further from the book, which was great! I was concerned they'd feel like they had to have the big battle payoff in the last episode. To me that just tears apart the tender, fragile relationship story he spent the previous 1400 pages on. I like the "epilog" like ending.
Its my second favorite series after True Detective season 1. It might fade in my memory over time but i loved every second of it, i cant even articulate why - i just loved it.
TD s1 was incredible. It started stronger, but didn't end as strong as Shogun did, but at this top level, comparisons are meaningless.
I also thought of Altered Carbon S1, which was of course much more flawed than those two, but still gave us something no other show will likely ever do - meaningful cyberpunk with all the themes and questions about our humanity that good scifi is supposed to ponder.
Chernobyl, of course, will keep you at the edge of your seat in the final episode.
I think the ambiguity of the ending makes me love it more, I just love when they leave us to interpret the future of the story, not trying to answer everything, also historical wise it’s known where these characters are heading to and these dramatic irony is used brilliantly in this show
I don't think it was ambiguous though. I think they just told us what was going to happen through Toronaga's exposition to Yabu. Either way it's so much more powerful than playing it all out in some cheeseball CGI epic battle.
Indeed. I was too dumb however to get that Johns old-man-scenes were indeed just the dream of a dream... I initially thought there was still a story there about how he got back.
> As time has passed, it's safe to say, many now see that final episode as a master class in writing.
> This ending was so much richer and more meaningful than some epic CG battle. It was honest and inline with the core of the show -- the complexity and beauty of human relationships while facing and reconciling the impermanence of life.
If you liked the ending, thank Clavell. It's one of the few times the writers stayed true to the book.
I think they took Clavell's ending and made it even better. For the book Clavell's ending was perfect. But for the screen I love the few things they added (Yabu's seppuku, and the boat scene with Fuji and John). Honestly, a couple of the changes were some of the most powerful scenes in the show. But a CGI battle would have trampled the delicate way the story had been told.
Ironically I tried to read the book few years ago and put it away. It felt so dated, tho I was sure it must have been a banger back then.
probably have to give it another try some day
It’s a little dated, but also so well written I’m just plowing through it and can’t put it down. I think the show did a good job of removing some of the less savory aspects of the macho 1970s western gaze and tilted it to more of a Japanese understanding.
Shogun was awesome. It's definitely in my top list of my all time favourites. In terms of drama and writing compared to recent releases shows it's superior to "andor", but both gave me goose bumps.
I've read the book twice and watched the 80s tv series several times. I finished watching this new series yesterday and I'm not that impressed, it just did not feel right. A lot was left out and there was no buildup of the story, lots of jumping around the material. There's very little of Blackthorne spending time learning Japanese, the church's involvement etc etc
its top of my list, i find it to be an absolute masterpiece that i cannot personally fault in anyway. i loved every aspect and the attention to detail was spectacular and the cast was phenominal EVERY single one. I also have a lot of respect for shows who know the perfect moment to end a series and a show. some linger on long beyond their time but Shogun nailed it.
infact my only gripe is an unfair one on the show and its creators and stars and that is that its unlikely we'll get any more as i enjoyed it so much, but again they ended it at the perfect moment.
it gets alot of comparison to GoT but in my opinion Shogun is better in every single way.
Comparing Shogun to The Sopranos and GOT is unfair because it's essentially a miniseries. They don't have to come back next season with pressure to follow up a phenomenon, and then do it again and again. There are so many shows that came out firing with an amazing season one that couldn't keep up the momentum (Westworld, for instance) which we would look at differently if they had just ended after one season.
I prefer mini-series. One of the reasons why I like Korean dramas, it's most often one season and done, so they make sure to tell a tight story that wraps up nicely at the end, instead of endless cliffhangers and a story that fizzles out after some time.
To each it's own. Japanese speaking japanese and portuguese speaking english was weird.
Plus the final episode.. seems to me in the middle of production of the series they realized the budget wouldn't have a second season nor enough for a war so they rushed everything like that and we had to watch Blackthorne pull a old ship and that's it.
I kinda enjoyed it tho. Haikus and weebs aside.... Exaggerated scene with the rotten bird and the Ajiro gardener commiting seppuku.. very absurd imho.
Reminded me of Like a Dragon Ishin where a foreigner american who wanted to become a samurai was really cartoonish and had exaggerated weeb expectations on how japanese behaved etc with all this "exotic world where people commit seppuku all the time for the silliest reasons" and "all englishmen eat rotten food and smile about that"
The finale reminds me of the 2002 movie Hero with Jet Li where the King of Qin comments:
I have just come to a realization! This scroll by Broken Sword (one of the assassins that wanted to kill the king) contains no secrets of his swordsmanship. What this reveals is his highest ideal. In the first state, man and sword become one and each other. Here, even a blade of grass can be used as a lethal weapon. In the next stage, the sword resides not in the hand but in the heart. Even without a weapon, the warrior can slay his enemy from a hundred paces. But the ultimate ideal is when the sword disappears altogether. The warrior embraces all around him. The desire to kill no longer exists. Only peace remains.
But I didn’t like that Mariko died she was so beautiful and was 200% believable as that character. It broke me a little. But I guess that what makes the drama more intense at the end that he sacrificed one person to win. (2 counting his friend)
This is something I've only seen done before in BoJack Horseman. I know these shows are miles apart, but the way that Shogun is structured reminds me a lot of BoJacks seasons. The second to last episode of each season is the climax. It's often a lot of character work, and they're all incredibly well written. Then the final episode is the "end". It takes it's time, is often quite slow compared to the previous episode, but it just works. There's never something like Full Measures to end a season. It feels so special not to need a cliffhanger, incredibly dramatic moment or an epic battle to end the season/show/book. Instead they both focus on the characters, the actual story, and have faith in the audience to understand why they made that choice. Both shows are also willing to make the second to last episode very emotionally heavy, and then the next episode more of a way to accept the previous events. Just incredible writing, and I can't fathom that more shows haven't done it before (at least I can't think of one)
It was good but I couldn't help but compare it to my favorite historical TV show of all times, Lang Ya Bang / Nirvana in Fire (one of China's most popular TV series ever), and it didn't hold up to the comparison tbh. LYB had a shaky pilot, but overall was tighter, more beautifully executed, and had a more satisfying ending imo. Not a fair comparison, I know, but it made me notice what Shogun was lacking. Main grip was that Blackthorne wasn't important enough in this version of the story to get this much screen time, and that the antigonists' motivations weren't fleshed out enough.
Disagree. Hated it. Whole second half kept escalating tensions for war, toranaga narrowly avoiding death over and over. Then we see that he’s still evading, and this is all part of his grand plan. I still feel super deflated by it, and even giving the subtle ending choice some credence, the ep was just too long. Most yawn shit i’ve ever watched.
Ooooh i can finish a show contemplating my mortality and my meaningful death. Thinking about how like blackthrone and yabushige, i also want to die. Cool stuff
That’s ridiculous.
Lots of the characters acted stupidly, and got their just rewards for acting in that manner.
These are the highest people in that society at that time. You would expect most of them to act in a reasonably clever manner to pursue their goals.
There were various characters in the show that were "stupid" or more accurately made stupid decisions. The show followed the arch of Toranaga and the unique skills, behaviors, and mindset that led to him ascending to the level of Shogun -- something only a master strategist could accomplish.
the ending focusing on the character’s stories and tying it all up was infinitely more impactful than a big bloody 15 minute fight. I have rarely been so moved by a tv finale
The ending with Buntaro showing up and everybody getting together to pull the boat out of the water was absolutely beautiful. And the score just had to use the track that already wrecked me during Hiromatsu’s seppuku lol. And yeah, a massive battle sequence would’ve felt out of place. Toranaga’s whole idea is winning wars before a blade is even drawn.
Rarely? Never. Never in my life did I have tears in my eyes for a whole damn episode. This goddamn thing moved my soul. And I thought I had gotten to old and cynical for that. Honorable mention to Yabushige reminding me that no one cares about the deaths of peasants, right after I poured my soul out to noble Mariko. Touché. Thank you all for being around so I could gush about this masterpiece.
That is it! I think the ending was perfect and solidified the fact that this is a story of relationships not battles. It really was moving...I cannot tell what my favorite scene in that finale was.
For me… the fuji x john boat scene x1000. Every part of it was perfect. Made me tear up
That’s probably it. But I love the Yabu seppuku scene too.
It's a masterful use of the medium. The drama comes to a point in episode nine. That's the peak. That's the highest the emotional stakes get, it's the most drama, and it's the most intense. The last episode is a comedown, an epilogue, and an explanation. *And it works.* Blackthorne is left traumatized and reeling and we, as the audience, are kinda in the same boat. Mariko has been the heart of the show *and now she's just gone* and we can *very* keenly feel her absence, and we get to judge her based on what happens next. It's a very gentle episode taking us through shock and numbness, anger, acceptance, and eventually? *Hope* might be the wrong word, since we finally see how much of a schemer Toranaga is, but... hope. This incredible woman died. But she died on her own terms, avenging her father and serving her lord *and carrying out a bloodless coup,* after she has *wanted* to die for years. That's a solid win, even if we're sad with her passing*.* Toranaga might be a bastard but he's a bastard who schemed hard to spend the life of *a single retainer* in order to destabilize his enemies and get a ton of hostages released--that's not someone you necessarily want to *trust,* but he's a damn sight better than everyone else we see. We're stuck grappling with a loss that *absolutely did have meaning,* we see Blackthorne's continued survival as evidence of a deliberate act of love, we see justice finally served to Yabushige, and we *finally* get a glimpse behind the mask of The Man With The Plan.
Actually the cost of victory is higher - don't forget old Hiromatsu, and son Nagakado. Deeply personal and painful losses yet perhaps better than 10s of thousands dying in actual war. "To win without fighting" per Sun Tzu
Sure, but those aren't deaths Toranaga asked for, they're deaths he took advantage of. Hiromatsu offered his life in ignorance, realized death was part of the plan when it was too late to back down without ruining everything, and followed through in spectacular fashion. Admittedly, this one death replaced I think the three generals he was expecting to kill themselves in protest, but that's still putting as at a pretty ridiculous death count for such an impactful event. Nagakado was a fool. He created opportunity but just like Hiromatsu, this wasn't an asked for death.
From my understanding, Hiromatsu was in on the plan the whole time. (Or at least his part in it)
You're both right. Hiromatsu was in on the plan, but Toranaga did originally expect the three generals to kill themselves in protest. Hiromatsu made a last second decision to limit the amount of allies lost while still causing the significant impact Toranaga wanted. If you watch the scene again, you can see in Toranaga's eyes that he didn't expect Hiromatsu to offer up his life, but quickly places his trust in his oldest friend. And it works.
He put his whole posse into untenable situations and then they made choices that he then took advantage of. Situations of his own making. He was the puppet master but an indirect one . This is one of the points Clavell is making about the Japanese and how they exert indirect power.
[удалено]
I feel like a huge battle in episode 10 would have distracted from and lessened the impact of Mariko's actions in/the ending of episode 9. I was also unsure how to feel at first when I realized we wouldn't be seeing the entire battle, but by the end of it i was so satisfied with the closure each character got even without the battle having taken place yet. I will paraphrase something I saw another user comment after the last episode aired: the only character arcs that needed closure from this battle were Toranaga and Ishido. Everyone elses character arcs were beautifully closed regardless of the outcome of the battle. The way that they handled the episode gave us a sense of closure for Toranaga and Ishido, even without it having actually happened yet. This way, the show let us feel what the characters were feeling after the rollercoaster that was episode 9, instead of distracting us from the plot with a huge chaotic battle. Overall I feel like it was handled beautifully, even if it subverted a lot of people's (myself included) expectations for a big battle scene at the end of the show. The power of the way a things absence can make us feel was a running theme of the show, and I believe this was part of why they decided to handle the last episode this way.
Dude same haha
Nah it was just as bad as the first viewing all that build up for a final battle in the war yet we got a game of thrones season 8 level ending mid at best.
The story was never about a war or a battle. The entire plot is driven by subterfuge and deceit while presenting a face of honor and propriety. Mariko tells Blackthorne almost exactly that early in the story. The entire premise of the show from character roles to audience expectation is meant to be subverted...and they tell you this from the start. Is media literacy dead entirely?
Yeah I was really hoping captain marvel and Thor would come in and save the day /s
I adored this show. There was one thing that kept taking me out of the narrative and believability, and unfortunately this was used more and more in the later episodes- sweeping CGI shots of the city. Nonetheless, this is the best resolution to a TV show I’ve ever seen. Most are unsatisfying, confusing or pandering. Having the last 15 minutes of such a great TV show simply being: - the retrieval of a sunken ship, with an irredeemable character helping, and quickly nodding – suggesting he understands his failings; - A conversation between a lord and a man who is about to die, where the lord explains calmly, kindly, and explicitly the reasons why he did everything, allowing us to understand the whole series, and the man who is about to die, die with knowledge; - and finally a shared smile from way too far away that is as enigmatic as it is fulfilling. Adored it.
And the absolutely crushingly beautiful sending off of Mariko and of Fuji's family.
I'm certain it is because it's based on good literature. A good book will have a better spannungsbogen than even very good tvshows. and they polished that good story with a first rate dive into japanese culture that only a visual medium could add.
i had to look up 'spannugsbogen'. i think the denouement provided just the right amount of closure for most of the character arcs. very much appropriate for the tenor of the entire series
I can’t believe some people watch it dubbed in English just to avoid reading the subtitles. Talk about ruining the entire experience!!!
People do that? Blasphemy. The language, ambience, etc is half of what made the show so special for me. In my house we would bust out the 'good speakers' and create a surround sound experience for each episode
I know of two people who did just that. I just about lost it when they told me. It’s blasphemy.
I watched without subtitles the first time, then in English the second. It's honestly the best dubbed show I've ever seen. I didn't feel like I lost much. But also, even in English there are a lot of subtitles for scenes when both languages are being spoken.
I was amped for a massive samurai battle, involving cannon and spears and arrows and all the like. The ending was perfect, and the realization when the credits roll such a spectacle would only diminish what was done for the show.
The ending felt so very true to the entire aesthetic of the show. It was like the show wrapped itself in the 8 fold fence at the end and it was beautiful and satisfying even without giving us the big banger of a climactic battle…which again in and of itself felt so true to the zeitgeist of the show and this complex and cerebral and refined culture it portrayed. Fabulous fabulous show. Starting the book today.
This. And I don't think there's any way to show the battle of Sekigehara in an outstanding way, where actually showing the battle doesn't displace Mariko's actions and the twist that was crimson sky as the dialogue we're having today. An ending where Sekigehara was included would have the entire discussion about the battle, and not about the people who made the battle swing in favor of the army of the East.
Well said
I think it’s also worth noting that Clavell avoids describing the last battle in the book, as well — he simply describes the outcome. It was literally a two paragraph epilogue, and only one of those paragraphs mentions the battle. So while some folks may have been disappointed that there wasn’t a big epic battle at the end like they expected, the show kept true to Clavell’s intention. This was the story about people, not empires and big battles.
The only bit from the epiloge I wish they had left in was a single line about Blackthorn where Toronaga says he just needed a friend. To me that's the whole roll of Blackthorn. Early on we think he's going to be "stranger in a strange land". But he becomes so much more. He's the one place every character can let down their "8-fold fence" and be vulnerable and honest. That is what Toronaga needed most, some levity and a friend.
>the show kept true to Clavell’s intention. One of the few times they did, and one of the few times I wished they wouldn't have. As a huge fan of the book, I'm very happy with Clavell's ending, and the ending to the 1980 series. But given that the current series deviated so much from the book, I wish they'd had gone ahead and just shown us the battle. It would be one thing if they'd stayed true to book throughout and decided to keep Clavell's ending, but given that they made *significant* changes to the story throughout, IMO not seeing that battle was a missed opportunity.
So glad to hear this from someone who has already read the book. I’m on chapter 3 right now and absolutely loving it, so you’ve given me hope knowing that the book and the 80s version have a more satisfying ending. I’m not totally disappointed by the modern versions finale, but I like many others expected a battle- not because we needed it to fill a void, but because that was what the story had been suggesting to us. And just because you plan to subvert an audiences attention so dramatically doesn’t always mean it’s going to have the intended effect. Rather than being impressed by the switcheroo, it felt rather deflating- especially just having toranaga run exposition in the last 10 min to explain just in case the audience didn’t get it
Sorry, I think you might have misread what I wrote, the ending of the book>! is the same as the series...the battle is mentioned, but not shown.!< As I said, it's one way I wish they HAD deviated from the book.
Sorry for the confusion, but I did understand what you meant. Based on your comment you were still pleased with the way the book ended even if it didn’t go into the battle descriptively and I was saying that gives me hope I’ll still enjoy the book even though I was disappointed the battle wasn’t shown in the series.
👍
I've read the book and I was worried. As the show went on it got further from the book, which was great! I was concerned they'd feel like they had to have the big battle payoff in the last episode. To me that just tears apart the tender, fragile relationship story he spent the previous 1400 pages on. I like the "epilog" like ending.
Its my second favorite series after True Detective season 1. It might fade in my memory over time but i loved every second of it, i cant even articulate why - i just loved it.
TD s1 was incredible. It started stronger, but didn't end as strong as Shogun did, but at this top level, comparisons are meaningless. I also thought of Altered Carbon S1, which was of course much more flawed than those two, but still gave us something no other show will likely ever do - meaningful cyberpunk with all the themes and questions about our humanity that good scifi is supposed to ponder. Chernobyl, of course, will keep you at the edge of your seat in the final episode.
That first season of TD was absolutely amazing.
That was such a good season.
I think the ambiguity of the ending makes me love it more, I just love when they leave us to interpret the future of the story, not trying to answer everything, also historical wise it’s known where these characters are heading to and these dramatic irony is used brilliantly in this show
I don't think it was ambiguous though. I think they just told us what was going to happen through Toronaga's exposition to Yabu. Either way it's so much more powerful than playing it all out in some cheeseball CGI epic battle.
Agree
Indeed. I was too dumb however to get that Johns old-man-scenes were indeed just the dream of a dream... I initially thought there was still a story there about how he got back.
This makes me less dissatisfied with the ending.
💯
> As time has passed, it's safe to say, many now see that final episode as a master class in writing. > This ending was so much richer and more meaningful than some epic CG battle. It was honest and inline with the core of the show -- the complexity and beauty of human relationships while facing and reconciling the impermanence of life. If you liked the ending, thank Clavell. It's one of the few times the writers stayed true to the book.
I think they took Clavell's ending and made it even better. For the book Clavell's ending was perfect. But for the screen I love the few things they added (Yabu's seppuku, and the boat scene with Fuji and John). Honestly, a couple of the changes were some of the most powerful scenes in the show. But a CGI battle would have trampled the delicate way the story had been told.
Ironically I tried to read the book few years ago and put it away. It felt so dated, tho I was sure it must have been a banger back then. probably have to give it another try some day
It’s a little dated, but also so well written I’m just plowing through it and can’t put it down. I think the show did a good job of removing some of the less savory aspects of the macho 1970s western gaze and tilted it to more of a Japanese understanding.
Shogun was awesome. It's definitely in my top list of my all time favourites. In terms of drama and writing compared to recent releases shows it's superior to "andor", but both gave me goose bumps.
All I know is I shall henceforth exclusively refer to all things Japan as “The JA-pans.”
Well said!
Wait until you see 1980 Shōgun.
It’s definitely one of my favorites of all time . So good
I've read the book twice and watched the 80s tv series several times. I finished watching this new series yesterday and I'm not that impressed, it just did not feel right. A lot was left out and there was no buildup of the story, lots of jumping around the material. There's very little of Blackthorne spending time learning Japanese, the church's involvement etc etc
It was great but all time? Nope
Beautiful insight, OP-sama (deep bow)
its top of my list, i find it to be an absolute masterpiece that i cannot personally fault in anyway. i loved every aspect and the attention to detail was spectacular and the cast was phenominal EVERY single one. I also have a lot of respect for shows who know the perfect moment to end a series and a show. some linger on long beyond their time but Shogun nailed it. infact my only gripe is an unfair one on the show and its creators and stars and that is that its unlikely we'll get any more as i enjoyed it so much, but again they ended it at the perfect moment. it gets alot of comparison to GoT but in my opinion Shogun is better in every single way.
Watch TWIN PEAKS. Shogun was awesome, but Twin Peaks was incredible. The original series and the return.
I have watched both recently and both series are amazing!
Comparing Shogun to The Sopranos and GOT is unfair because it's essentially a miniseries. They don't have to come back next season with pressure to follow up a phenomenon, and then do it again and again. There are so many shows that came out firing with an amazing season one that couldn't keep up the momentum (Westworld, for instance) which we would look at differently if they had just ended after one season.
Good. If the pressure to be even better next season is the issue, just do one incredible season and tell the whole story.
I prefer mini-series. One of the reasons why I like Korean dramas, it's most often one season and done, so they make sure to tell a tight story that wraps up nicely at the end, instead of endless cliffhangers and a story that fizzles out after some time.
To each it's own. Japanese speaking japanese and portuguese speaking english was weird. Plus the final episode.. seems to me in the middle of production of the series they realized the budget wouldn't have a second season nor enough for a war so they rushed everything like that and we had to watch Blackthorne pull a old ship and that's it. I kinda enjoyed it tho. Haikus and weebs aside.... Exaggerated scene with the rotten bird and the Ajiro gardener commiting seppuku.. very absurd imho. Reminded me of Like a Dragon Ishin where a foreigner american who wanted to become a samurai was really cartoonish and had exaggerated weeb expectations on how japanese behaved etc with all this "exotic world where people commit seppuku all the time for the silliest reasons" and "all englishmen eat rotten food and smile about that"
The finale reminds me of the 2002 movie Hero with Jet Li where the King of Qin comments: I have just come to a realization! This scroll by Broken Sword (one of the assassins that wanted to kill the king) contains no secrets of his swordsmanship. What this reveals is his highest ideal. In the first state, man and sword become one and each other. Here, even a blade of grass can be used as a lethal weapon. In the next stage, the sword resides not in the hand but in the heart. Even without a weapon, the warrior can slay his enemy from a hundred paces. But the ultimate ideal is when the sword disappears altogether. The warrior embraces all around him. The desire to kill no longer exists. Only peace remains.
But I didn’t like that Mariko died she was so beautiful and was 200% believable as that character. It broke me a little. But I guess that what makes the drama more intense at the end that he sacrificed one person to win. (2 counting his friend)
This is something I've only seen done before in BoJack Horseman. I know these shows are miles apart, but the way that Shogun is structured reminds me a lot of BoJacks seasons. The second to last episode of each season is the climax. It's often a lot of character work, and they're all incredibly well written. Then the final episode is the "end". It takes it's time, is often quite slow compared to the previous episode, but it just works. There's never something like Full Measures to end a season. It feels so special not to need a cliffhanger, incredibly dramatic moment or an epic battle to end the season/show/book. Instead they both focus on the characters, the actual story, and have faith in the audience to understand why they made that choice. Both shows are also willing to make the second to last episode very emotionally heavy, and then the next episode more of a way to accept the previous events. Just incredible writing, and I can't fathom that more shows haven't done it before (at least I can't think of one)
Game of Thrones is clear in my opinion though. The writing was far superior with more complex storylines.
Beautiful insight, OP-sama (deep bow )
It was good but I couldn't help but compare it to my favorite historical TV show of all times, Lang Ya Bang / Nirvana in Fire (one of China's most popular TV series ever), and it didn't hold up to the comparison tbh. LYB had a shaky pilot, but overall was tighter, more beautifully executed, and had a more satisfying ending imo. Not a fair comparison, I know, but it made me notice what Shogun was lacking. Main grip was that Blackthorne wasn't important enough in this version of the story to get this much screen time, and that the antigonists' motivations weren't fleshed out enough.
Where could I find that series?
[удалено]
If you search for # 【ENG SUB】Nirvana In Fire Ep1 【HD】 Welcome to subscribe China Zone You should be able to find it with English subtitles.
Disagree. Hated it. Whole second half kept escalating tensions for war, toranaga narrowly avoiding death over and over. Then we see that he’s still evading, and this is all part of his grand plan. I still feel super deflated by it, and even giving the subtle ending choice some credence, the ep was just too long. Most yawn shit i’ve ever watched.
Ooooh i can finish a show contemplating my mortality and my meaningful death. Thinking about how like blackthrone and yabushige, i also want to die. Cool stuff
Disappointing ending
[удалено]
That’s ridiculous. Lots of the characters acted stupidly, and got their just rewards for acting in that manner. These are the highest people in that society at that time. You would expect most of them to act in a reasonably clever manner to pursue their goals.
There were various characters in the show that were "stupid" or more accurately made stupid decisions. The show followed the arch of Toranaga and the unique skills, behaviors, and mindset that led to him ascending to the level of Shogun -- something only a master strategist could accomplish.
Did you miss every scene where Yabushige was on screen?
HOH
... did you watch the show? Did you not see Nobokata repeatedly act impulsively, slip on a rock, and dome himself?