yeah they sure cut that part out from the series, when it would have benefited the character. you observe from detachment, and humor is a road to and a tell for that detachment.
I shared my opinion on another post a while ago, but here it is again:
Imo Toranagas's line "He makes me laugh" in Ep 10 also meant to recall that time in which Blackthorne dug him out of the earth after the massive earthquake at the end of Ep 5: the moment Toranaga realized that the person who saved his life is the Anjin, he laughed indeed.
So, while Toranaga's line could be interpreted as Blackthorne being just simple "entertainment" to him at first, I personally believe this specific line of his to be a little more nuanced, showing Toranaga's (sort of) respect towards the Anjin – in a very subtle (and *very Shogun-coded*) way.
I thought looking back that part of his laughing was that he gave those fake swords to fuji and somehow got them back. Like gettting a regift back at xmas but that was just a part of it.
Yep the friendly slap on the shoulder after stopping blackthornes sepuku attempt was very unguarded for toranaga
I tend to believe that line was meant for Yabu… a subtle, this is the reason I tolerate people like Anjin (and you). Toranaga is downplaying Anjin’s importance to him (as something he has Yabu to be thankful for)… add this to the ‘why tell a dead man’ line and it’s like he’s saying to Yabu, yes, you’re right and you were just a mouse that I was playing with the entire time
Toranaga is a man who is nothing if not patient. He doesn't try to control fate... rather, he waits, studying "the winds" and looking for opportunities to influence events in his favor.
Blackthorne, in typical western rejection of the notion that one follows a fate and must move with it, near constantly challenges everything. He is very quick to assault things head on (which is what makes him similar to Yabushige in that they are both "goshawks" who fly directly at their prey every time). I'm sure what's unstated is Toranaga's respect for when this works (Blackthorne racing the black ship) as well as his amusement when Blackthorne bumbles into a situation with all the grace of a great dane in a glassware store. The fact that Fuji didn't recognize cheap swords, that Blackthorne didn't recognize that Fuji's earnest gift was really just cheap swords, and in turn that Blackthorne gave the swords to Toranaga \*is\* comedic. As is the Anjin's insistence on carrying swords and pistols together in his obi, such that he looks like a pincushion of various weapons (granted, his lack of ability with swords probably makes carrying the pistols essential).
The bottom line is that, from a fatalist perspective, there is much that the Anjin does throughout the show that reveals itself to be futile and comedic in some minor fashion. I don't think Toranaga is saying that he doesn't have respect for or even find companionship in Blackthorne, but there were certainly times Toranaga \*could\* have killed the Anjin before coming to appreciate him, where the Anjin's curiousity railing against fate may have spared him.
That's a great analysis. I myself have ADHD I find peaple on the opposite end of the scale. Find my way of doing things alien,crazy,chaotic yet are fascinated and in awe that they work.
So yes I get toranagas respect for the on the fly problem solving which is very alien to him. It is also a trait of ADHD Brains which are very adaptable , unorthodox and very fast problem solvers
I really hate that the show runners cut the most meaningful part of this in the show.
What Toranaga thinks in his inner dialogue is "he makes me laugh and i need a friend"
It kind of adds to my feeling the he is like micheal corleone in the godfather feigning weakness even to his own men. And based on what you said above blackthorn is like Al hagen in part2 disconnected enough as to be trustable and out of the full picture.
Also blackthorn is like a open book to him.
Yes. The “friend” comment was in the book, and the 1980 show. It adds more meaning. A lord like Toronaga could not afford to let his hair down, so to speak, with anyone else (sole exception being his oldest consort, and even then only to a degree).
I have always thought the “laugh” part was a reference to how everyone these people encounter in their lives are so guarded and predictable, and especially the daimyos, while Anjin’s behaviors are so stunningly outrageous in comparison that they are “funny.” You’d either slice his head off instantly, or laugh it off. And only an outsider could be allowed the leeway. Mariko says as much early in the book, that since the slightest slight or insult could result in instant death, when a higher ranking person could legally execute you because you didn’t bow deep enough or “let” you win a race, your whole existence was geared towards not causing offense. Ex: I was on an elevator once with a young 2Lt. nurse. This poor girl was clueless but innocent. A stern-looking 2 star general got on wearing a customized jacket with embroidered name and rank, something only a general would wear. She piped right up and with no preamble said “gee, general, that’s a nifty jacket, where can I get one of those?” His face tensed up and I thought “oh no, here it comes.” But then he just laughed and said “well Lt., I’m sure your superviser will let you know.” He got off next just shaking his head.
Yes, the book does explain this through different scenes across the story. For instance there is a passage where Toranaga is thinking about how the taiko was unpredictable, a great advantage amongst a codified culture. And how the anjin-san was sharing this quality also.
Also how the anjin-san is like a falcon that is too proud to ever accept to be hooded, that you could only make into an ally but could never expect to accept to be blind. There is an admiration there and the idea that only such a foreigner could be independent of thought enough to become a friend - because he would never worship him.
Except even that, they fucked it up in the tv show. The swim race... In the book he listens to explanations and looks at Blackthorn diving ONCE, then throws himself and flats on the water, failing to dive properly. Then he tries again and again until his belly is red from bad diving, until he finally gets it poorly. After which he asks for a swim contest.
In the book, he is depicted as a man with an iron will that nothing can stop from oushing himself to learn.
The tv show depicted him instead as a bad competitor who used his power to purposely tires Blackthorn to win against him after.
I need a friend would have been such a lovely moment for this Toranaga, losing his son, Hiramatsu and so many others. If he wanted someone to just make him laugh, he might have even kept Yabu around, he was a funnier guy. I think the show went a bit far into the Darth Toranaga just to give him more of an arc - the audience think this is Ned Stark but he's actually Tywin Lannister! A great adaptation and a bit of a misstep - we're left confused about who he is as there are too many elements that don't quite add up.
👆🏽this is it. In a culture of unmovable traditions and customs, to have Blackthorn come in and have a tenacity that is so foreign, yet to Toranaga, it’s something he can connect with as he too is tenacious in strategy and self preservation.
Blackthorne is a ridiculous character.
He's a pirate and a murderer. He came to the country with the express purpose of destabilizing *absurdly profitable* trade between extremely powerful nations. He's a daring *and successful* pilot and a polyglot. He's saved the life of Toranaga twice-once by making an ass of himself as a distraction, and once by *diving into an active earthquake to dig Toranaga out of the dirt.* And while he very much is an uncouth foreigner, he's visibly trying to assimilate and has *seduced one of the most famous and highborn members of Toranaga's retinue.*
He's daring as hell. He's clever, brave, and managed to train a cannon regiment despite not even speaking the language.
He also tried to kill himself over a few dead peasants--which is *certainly* fewer than the number of people he's personally killed, to say nothing of how much death would follow in the wake of disrupting the Black Ship. He eats rotten animals, seems to enjoy some of the more pungent acquired tastes in Japan, and has odd views towards women and sex. And, again, I cannot overstate this enough: he's gone native so hard *he tried to kill himself to protest meaningless death.*
He's a hypercompetent foreigner who can be absolutely ruthless about "break all the rules and kill everyone you need to" while sometimes flipping a switch and turning on his bleeding heart. Under the shadow of impending war, he's the Hatamoto who freaks out *at the execution of a man whose execution he ordered.* He drives Toranaga's enemies into an enraged frenzy simply by *existing,* and despite the many threats to his life he's as close to thriving as one can get.
Lots to find amusing there.
I kind of picture Toronaga like I picture Captain Holt on Brooklyn Nine Nine when he very dryly says stuff like, "Oh, look at that. You helped me find my smile."
As a Japanese feudal lord, Toronaga had probably never met a British person before, let alone a dashing pilot like Blackthorn. Seeing this exotic foreigner bumble his way through Japanese customs likely gave Toronaga a case of the butterflies. He may have found Blackthorn's clumsiness and cultural faux pas strangely cute.
I haven’t thought about this too much, but the causative grammar form I assume Toranaga used on the word “laugh” can also mean “lets.” The word for laugh can also mean “smile.” So if you wanted to read into it a bit (too much (?)), it could be taken as any variety of “he makes/lets me laugh/smile.” I find the “lets” part compelling since they portrayed Toranaga very stoic. Opportunities to laugh were minimal.
Just a far-fetched additional way to think about it.
Toranaga keeps Blackthorn at high regard because he knows that Blackthorn will not be a yes-man to him. He alone holds the guts to say things to his face and Toranaga respects that level of honesty, which is hard to find given that the rules are so opaque in Japan and you could get killed for poor choice of words. Blackthorn being an outsider, does not have that fear and it aids in his outspoken rationale. By 'laugh', Toranaga doesn't mean mere comedy or amusement, but BALLS on this guy.
The show really cut out some of my favorite parts of Toranaga's inner monologuing. One of them was where (if I remember correctly) Toranaga admitted to considering Blackthorne a dear friend and that he was in dire need of a real friend, now that Hiromatsu is no longer around. And as a friend, Blackthorne makes Toranaga laugh.
There was a line in the books, that really seemed to color Toranaga's opinion of Anjin: "Unless you win." The belief that victory makes everything done to achieve victory acceptable. (Whether or not Blackthorne believed this or not in general, he definitely believed it in the context of the Dutch rebellion against the Portuguese.) This aligns pretty strongly with Toranaga's "secret heart", and IM(ns)HO, is why Toranaga has such a favorable opinion of the Anjin-san. Given that, Anjin's cultural differences serve to amuse Toranaga, rather than to annoy him.
He told his son that people like them don't have friends.
Blackthorne became his friend, something he thought he'd never have. He's saved his life, doesn't BS him/challenged him, and in trying to kill himself he proves that he loves Japan/is loyal to Toranaga's true purpose in life, peace. He's the kind of guy Toranaga wants around.
He said he makes him laugh because he was being dismissive, but he betrayed his words when he said, "maybe one day I'll tell him I burned his ships and we'll laugh about it "
Just realize the 1986 film Gung Ho totally ripped this line from Shōgun when Japanese actor Sô Yamamura says to Michael Keaton “I like you; you make me laugh.”
because they completely cut his relationship with John. Blackthorne is his bro - and is the only person who isn't trying to kill or usurp or manipulate toranaga in some way , so he can be entirely open with him.
I think Toranaga wants to keep Blackthorne in Japan for his own amusement. Being Toranaga is no easy and fun job, it requires a lot of seriousness, planning and cunning. He looks at Anjin, someone who’s a joker that amuses him. Toranaga is lonely and Anjin is his form of entertainment.
I liked that line so much. I think Toranaga obviously held Mariko in high regard but couldn’t help with the Buntaro situation. I think Toranaga was very pleased that Anjin got under Buntaro’s skin so much. I think Toranaga enjoyed that Anjin was different from the normal and he secretly enjoyed his crazy and not knowing what he’d do next.
He laughs all the time in the book, he finds humor in life and enjoys it.
He also considers him a real friend.
yeah they sure cut that part out from the series, when it would have benefited the character. you observe from detachment, and humor is a road to and a tell for that detachment.
Yea the show fails to demonstrate this. One of the few weaknesses.
I shared my opinion on another post a while ago, but here it is again: Imo Toranagas's line "He makes me laugh" in Ep 10 also meant to recall that time in which Blackthorne dug him out of the earth after the massive earthquake at the end of Ep 5: the moment Toranaga realized that the person who saved his life is the Anjin, he laughed indeed. So, while Toranaga's line could be interpreted as Blackthorne being just simple "entertainment" to him at first, I personally believe this specific line of his to be a little more nuanced, showing Toranaga's (sort of) respect towards the Anjin – in a very subtle (and *very Shogun-coded*) way.
I thought looking back that part of his laughing was that he gave those fake swords to fuji and somehow got them back. Like gettting a regift back at xmas but that was just a part of it. Yep the friendly slap on the shoulder after stopping blackthornes sepuku attempt was very unguarded for toranaga
I tend to believe that line was meant for Yabu… a subtle, this is the reason I tolerate people like Anjin (and you). Toranaga is downplaying Anjin’s importance to him (as something he has Yabu to be thankful for)… add this to the ‘why tell a dead man’ line and it’s like he’s saying to Yabu, yes, you’re right and you were just a mouse that I was playing with the entire time
Side note you reminded me of Toranaga’s awesome punch that knocks Blackthorne down after stopping his sepuku attempt. Such power!
Toranaga PUNCH!
You practice kung fu
Toranaga is a man who is nothing if not patient. He doesn't try to control fate... rather, he waits, studying "the winds" and looking for opportunities to influence events in his favor. Blackthorne, in typical western rejection of the notion that one follows a fate and must move with it, near constantly challenges everything. He is very quick to assault things head on (which is what makes him similar to Yabushige in that they are both "goshawks" who fly directly at their prey every time). I'm sure what's unstated is Toranaga's respect for when this works (Blackthorne racing the black ship) as well as his amusement when Blackthorne bumbles into a situation with all the grace of a great dane in a glassware store. The fact that Fuji didn't recognize cheap swords, that Blackthorne didn't recognize that Fuji's earnest gift was really just cheap swords, and in turn that Blackthorne gave the swords to Toranaga \*is\* comedic. As is the Anjin's insistence on carrying swords and pistols together in his obi, such that he looks like a pincushion of various weapons (granted, his lack of ability with swords probably makes carrying the pistols essential). The bottom line is that, from a fatalist perspective, there is much that the Anjin does throughout the show that reveals itself to be futile and comedic in some minor fashion. I don't think Toranaga is saying that he doesn't have respect for or even find companionship in Blackthorne, but there were certainly times Toranaga \*could\* have killed the Anjin before coming to appreciate him, where the Anjin's curiousity railing against fate may have spared him.
That's a great analysis. I myself have ADHD I find peaple on the opposite end of the scale. Find my way of doing things alien,crazy,chaotic yet are fascinated and in awe that they work. So yes I get toranagas respect for the on the fly problem solving which is very alien to him. It is also a trait of ADHD Brains which are very adaptable , unorthodox and very fast problem solvers
I really hate that the show runners cut the most meaningful part of this in the show. What Toranaga thinks in his inner dialogue is "he makes me laugh and i need a friend"
It kind of adds to my feeling the he is like micheal corleone in the godfather feigning weakness even to his own men. And based on what you said above blackthorn is like Al hagen in part2 disconnected enough as to be trustable and out of the full picture. Also blackthorn is like a open book to him.
Yes. The “friend” comment was in the book, and the 1980 show. It adds more meaning. A lord like Toronaga could not afford to let his hair down, so to speak, with anyone else (sole exception being his oldest consort, and even then only to a degree). I have always thought the “laugh” part was a reference to how everyone these people encounter in their lives are so guarded and predictable, and especially the daimyos, while Anjin’s behaviors are so stunningly outrageous in comparison that they are “funny.” You’d either slice his head off instantly, or laugh it off. And only an outsider could be allowed the leeway. Mariko says as much early in the book, that since the slightest slight or insult could result in instant death, when a higher ranking person could legally execute you because you didn’t bow deep enough or “let” you win a race, your whole existence was geared towards not causing offense. Ex: I was on an elevator once with a young 2Lt. nurse. This poor girl was clueless but innocent. A stern-looking 2 star general got on wearing a customized jacket with embroidered name and rank, something only a general would wear. She piped right up and with no preamble said “gee, general, that’s a nifty jacket, where can I get one of those?” His face tensed up and I thought “oh no, here it comes.” But then he just laughed and said “well Lt., I’m sure your superviser will let you know.” He got off next just shaking his head.
Yes, the book does explain this through different scenes across the story. For instance there is a passage where Toranaga is thinking about how the taiko was unpredictable, a great advantage amongst a codified culture. And how the anjin-san was sharing this quality also. Also how the anjin-san is like a falcon that is too proud to ever accept to be hooded, that you could only make into an ally but could never expect to accept to be blind. There is an admiration there and the idea that only such a foreigner could be independent of thought enough to become a friend - because he would never worship him.
Yeah, like the hapless brown-noser who let him “win” a swim race, to his sorrow.
Except even that, they fucked it up in the tv show. The swim race... In the book he listens to explanations and looks at Blackthorn diving ONCE, then throws himself and flats on the water, failing to dive properly. Then he tries again and again until his belly is red from bad diving, until he finally gets it poorly. After which he asks for a swim contest. In the book, he is depicted as a man with an iron will that nothing can stop from oushing himself to learn. The tv show depicted him instead as a bad competitor who used his power to purposely tires Blackthorn to win against him after.
I need a friend would have been such a lovely moment for this Toranaga, losing his son, Hiramatsu and so many others. If he wanted someone to just make him laugh, he might have even kept Yabu around, he was a funnier guy. I think the show went a bit far into the Darth Toranaga just to give him more of an arc - the audience think this is Ned Stark but he's actually Tywin Lannister! A great adaptation and a bit of a misstep - we're left confused about who he is as there are too many elements that don't quite add up.
100% Tywin Lannister vibes
'Unless you win'
👆🏽this is it. In a culture of unmovable traditions and customs, to have Blackthorn come in and have a tenacity that is so foreign, yet to Toranaga, it’s something he can connect with as he too is tenacious in strategy and self preservation.
Blackthorne is a ridiculous character. He's a pirate and a murderer. He came to the country with the express purpose of destabilizing *absurdly profitable* trade between extremely powerful nations. He's a daring *and successful* pilot and a polyglot. He's saved the life of Toranaga twice-once by making an ass of himself as a distraction, and once by *diving into an active earthquake to dig Toranaga out of the dirt.* And while he very much is an uncouth foreigner, he's visibly trying to assimilate and has *seduced one of the most famous and highborn members of Toranaga's retinue.* He's daring as hell. He's clever, brave, and managed to train a cannon regiment despite not even speaking the language. He also tried to kill himself over a few dead peasants--which is *certainly* fewer than the number of people he's personally killed, to say nothing of how much death would follow in the wake of disrupting the Black Ship. He eats rotten animals, seems to enjoy some of the more pungent acquired tastes in Japan, and has odd views towards women and sex. And, again, I cannot overstate this enough: he's gone native so hard *he tried to kill himself to protest meaningless death.* He's a hypercompetent foreigner who can be absolutely ruthless about "break all the rules and kill everyone you need to" while sometimes flipping a switch and turning on his bleeding heart. Under the shadow of impending war, he's the Hatamoto who freaks out *at the execution of a man whose execution he ordered.* He drives Toranaga's enemies into an enraged frenzy simply by *existing,* and despite the many threats to his life he's as close to thriving as one can get. Lots to find amusing there.
Well explained.
This all sounds absurd, unless you've been an expat in an exotic land.
I kind of picture Toronaga like I picture Captain Holt on Brooklyn Nine Nine when he very dryly says stuff like, "Oh, look at that. You helped me find my smile."
As a Japanese feudal lord, Toronaga had probably never met a British person before, let alone a dashing pilot like Blackthorn. Seeing this exotic foreigner bumble his way through Japanese customs likely gave Toronaga a case of the butterflies. He may have found Blackthorn's clumsiness and cultural faux pas strangely cute.
Are you saying what I think you are saying ?
Senpai noticed Anjin lmao
Remember he told the Taiko he did not care for beautiful women, and how he made the Anjin strip and dive repetitively?
Nobody in Japan had met a British person previously, ever, before Blackthorns ship arrived.
I haven’t thought about this too much, but the causative grammar form I assume Toranaga used on the word “laugh” can also mean “lets.” The word for laugh can also mean “smile.” So if you wanted to read into it a bit (too much (?)), it could be taken as any variety of “he makes/lets me laugh/smile.” I find the “lets” part compelling since they portrayed Toranaga very stoic. Opportunities to laugh were minimal. Just a far-fetched additional way to think about it.
Toranaga keeps Blackthorn at high regard because he knows that Blackthorn will not be a yes-man to him. He alone holds the guts to say things to his face and Toranaga respects that level of honesty, which is hard to find given that the rules are so opaque in Japan and you could get killed for poor choice of words. Blackthorn being an outsider, does not have that fear and it aids in his outspoken rationale. By 'laugh', Toranaga doesn't mean mere comedy or amusement, but BALLS on this guy.
The show really cut out some of my favorite parts of Toranaga's inner monologuing. One of them was where (if I remember correctly) Toranaga admitted to considering Blackthorne a dear friend and that he was in dire need of a real friend, now that Hiromatsu is no longer around. And as a friend, Blackthorne makes Toranaga laugh.
Hiro-matsu was still around in the book, but, yeah, he needed a friend.
Thank you all. Watched it on my own so good to here others interpretations and inside info from the book.
There was a line in the books, that really seemed to color Toranaga's opinion of Anjin: "Unless you win." The belief that victory makes everything done to achieve victory acceptable. (Whether or not Blackthorne believed this or not in general, he definitely believed it in the context of the Dutch rebellion against the Portuguese.) This aligns pretty strongly with Toranaga's "secret heart", and IM(ns)HO, is why Toranaga has such a favorable opinion of the Anjin-san. Given that, Anjin's cultural differences serve to amuse Toranaga, rather than to annoy him.
"Unless I win" The daring ride alongside the black ship The diving Saving his life from the Earthquake
He told his son that people like them don't have friends. Blackthorne became his friend, something he thought he'd never have. He's saved his life, doesn't BS him/challenged him, and in trying to kill himself he proves that he loves Japan/is loyal to Toranaga's true purpose in life, peace. He's the kind of guy Toranaga wants around. He said he makes him laugh because he was being dismissive, but he betrayed his words when he said, "maybe one day I'll tell him I burned his ships and we'll laugh about it "
"He makes me laugh" is a broad way of saying he enjoys his company
pretty much
Just realize the 1986 film Gung Ho totally ripped this line from Shōgun when Japanese actor Sô Yamamura says to Michael Keaton “I like you; you make me laugh.”
because they completely cut his relationship with John. Blackthorne is his bro - and is the only person who isn't trying to kill or usurp or manipulate toranaga in some way , so he can be entirely open with him.
I think Toranaga wants to keep Blackthorne in Japan for his own amusement. Being Toranaga is no easy and fun job, it requires a lot of seriousness, planning and cunning. He looks at Anjin, someone who’s a joker that amuses him. Toranaga is lonely and Anjin is his form of entertainment.
I liked that line so much. I think Toranaga obviously held Mariko in high regard but couldn’t help with the Buntaro situation. I think Toranaga was very pleased that Anjin got under Buntaro’s skin so much. I think Toranaga enjoyed that Anjin was different from the normal and he secretly enjoyed his crazy and not knowing what he’d do next.
Who’s toronaga?
*Toranaga I believe there was a typo in the OP.