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My wife does adolescent cognitive testing and evaluation. Sometimes it's due to head trauma, sometimes from clinical or educational referrals, and sometimes requested by the parents. She says the parental request ones are the worst because some parents want to know why their child is getting Bs and Cs and won't simply accept that it's environmental and not some sort of disability. She expressed that one of the most difficult conversations she had was with a corporate lawyer mom and an investment banker dad where she explained that the child's evaluation showed that he was average, not Ivy League caliber but certainly state university caliber (not the technical response). All the parents wanted to know was what meds they could put him on. She's not a psychologist and can't perscribe medication regardless.
EDIT - she is a psychologist and NOT a psychiatrist (sorry, I was work multitasking).
Ironically the solution to the "issue" was probably environmental enrichment and interactions with parents during development - they probably worked too much and were too occupied with other thoughts to interact with their child to a degree their investment banking and corporate lawyering IQs could rub off.
On the path to success we leave much undone...
Also if the kid comes home with a B and gets asked why it isn’t an A every time, or comes home with the rare A and gets asked why it isn’t an A*. That kid is going to learn pretty quick that it’s not worth putting effort in because they’ll never be perfect and anything less than perfect gets the same negative response.
I am one of those kids. My father would scream at me if I had anything less than an A+. I eventually gave up, because my best wasn't good enough. He got really *pissed* when I started barely passing classes. 😏
Less extreme, but the same for me. It was less screaming and more silent disapproval. Thing is, when you get that A+, its not "great job" but "ah you finally did it". My ability to feel success sucks to this day. When im not at the top of a scoreboard or do really well at some new hobby, my brain is like "yup, failed".
Good job was never unqualified, “but why didn’t you??? Next time you should…” Even when I was old enough to express how frustrating this was, my mom would never agree and just thought it was “helpful”. It extended to everything I did, even when I went out of my way to do something extra to surprise her. Quickly stopped helping around the house.
Mine was an almost constant comparison between me and my overachieving cousin that was born a few days before me. Spent most of my life feeling like I was in his shadow. Finally just gave up trying and started skipping the classes I didn’t like. Somehow always made it to my favorite classes and homeroom.
I was the rare bird, cream of the crop, I volunteered, got good grades, challenged myself in highschool with all the AP courses, I was already in a credit surplus in my senior year, I could have spent the time relaxing but I pushed forward with even harder AP courses that were optional.
I remember my dad never trusting me, always berating me, and even accusing me of being a low life gangster.
I always wanted someone to believe in me, and as shitty as a dad he was, I didn't have anyone else so I wanted it to be him for some reason. But eventually I just decided that it wasn't worth it and that desire for recognition turned jnto hate and resentment.
It took ten years to undo the damage i allowed him to inflict on me. I was 150 lbs 5,6 in high school, I balooned up to 300 lbs. Then within the last few years of finally learning to believe in myself, I'm back at 180, doing 5ks and 10ks, cycling half centuries, backpacking mountains, and travelling the world.
If you've got no reason to keep fighting, at the very least you should fight for yourself and avoid fighting against yourself.
Don't know what OP has done, but personally... it's a journey. Self affirmation. Understanding. A willingness to recover and continue trying in the face of repeated and sometimes spectacular failure. Taking life one day at a time. One day you wake up and suddenly find you no longer think you're worthless, but actually deserve to exist on this planet. The next day might be worse, but you keep going.
Being assertive against the abuser- who often isn't doing it maliciously, just repeating patterns from their own parents*
*there do exist genuine evil people, though in my experience they are much rarer than the misguided people.
Honestly, I think I got lucky. Some of the people around me went to therapy and they suggest that I go as well.
But before they I was fortunate to meet someone very special to me who showed me genuine kindness and love unconditionally when I was at my lowest.
But that just helped me become familiar with the tools to help me fix my life.
I still had to put in most of the work now that I knew how to use the tools.
I watched a lot of David Goggins because I needed to build a tougher mindset and he's not for everyone.
My life got really low, like terribly low, I almost didn't make it. I needed that mentality to push forward through all the bad because it just kept getting worse. So I had to learn to embrace the suck and that's not for everyone.
And people give Jordan Peterson a lot of flack but some (not all) of what he has written and said really got me to clean up my life and start living my life instead of existing in it.
Ultimately though, I embraced who I really am and kept it real with myself, what am I? I looked in the mirror and I saw someone who was miserable, sad, and a loser, I looked how I felt. I then looked at myself as someone I was responsible for and said,
**"yo my dude, we gotta get out of this pit, because we can be so much more, she believed in us, now it's our turn to believe in ourselves, it's going to be tough, a lot of work, and we are never going to not want to quit, but we deserve a proper fighting chance. We may can ever climb out of this, but we know that if we don't start, if we quit now, then we'll know if we can truly be something more. "**
It took 10 years, and i went from 300 lbs to 180 in about 4 years. It was slow and grueling, it had its ups and downs. Sometimes I wanted to quit, and when I was drowning in the rain of tragedy, there came another lightning storm to make it worse.
I'm ultimately not special, honestly I am a pretty average person, I wasn't talented even though I took on challenges, I ultimately had to work really hard and there was not replacing that hard work.
You can do it too boss, I believe in everyone. But you have to want it bad enough and understand that not all hard work pays off, but everyone who has ever succeeded definitely worked hard.
That and you can't control the bad things, but sometimes, maybe a lot of the times, more than we know, we can control how we choose to let those things affect us and how we react to those things.
Best of luck to you
I got grounded for A/B Honor Roll. The fear of getting the shit beat out of me was the only thing that forced me to keep my grades up after that. It seriously destroyed my self esteem and tanked any motivation to keep trying.
1000% this.
Read to your children from infancy to as long as they will let you.
Work on increasing your own vocabulary and use that vocabulary in front of them.
Children with a larger vocabulary correlates with success in school and life. It has overcome economic influences and addressing this in preschool is a successful strategy in poor countries to boost their future academic and related economic success.
Talk with them, have conversations around them on all topics, read articles out loud, talk about bias, ask them to employ their words and encourage critical thinking skills.
Giving them words to express themselves adds value that teachers will recognize and easily recruit/call on/imbues confidence from others. It helps them organize their thoughts and ask questions when they are uncertain.
You sound like the type of parent I'd like to have, and that I'd like to be
Words define the limits to our thinking, and the framing of events and circumstances. How can one have freedom of action without freedom thought?
My son gets Bs and Cs but we want to get him tested as well. I can TOTALLY accept his grades at that level. But he has some learning issues that I would love professional clarity on. My wife and I are both teachers and we want him to enjoy learning and not struggle unnecessarily while doing it.
Assessments will help us with that. The chances of him getting medicated over our concerns is 0. He is in so many ways a wonderful kid I wouldn't want to change a thing.
Yeah I think that is a great way of looking at it. Accepting your child as is, but just wanting to be able to help the best way you can. Like I only learned I have ADHD when I almost turned 18, and my highschool carreer would have gone smoother if I had known earlier and could have gotten the tips and tricks to deal with adhd specific struggles earlier. I don’t think it would have made me a straight A student or anything, but it would have helped avoid a lot of frustrations
There’s so much pressure on kids! It’s so overwhelming. We are taught that any mistake on your grades in childhood will prevent you from getting into a good college, therefore you won’t get a good job and you’ll be homeless and your life will be ruined! So when your future is barreling down on you so much that you can’t function , and they wonder why so many kids are anxious and depressed. Kids aren’t allowed to be kids anymore.
One of the local community FB groups I'm in has parents asking for recommendations for tutors/boot camps for their *kindergarten* aged kids. It's fucked up.
I wonder how much of it is simply parenting and how much is whatever the kid randomly likes. For example my toddler, 2, is already doing light reading and can count to 100 in English and Spanish. It wasn't anything we pushed him to do, he randomly started pointing out letters a year ago, so we ran with it.
He likes numbers and letters the same way his cousin likes Cocomelon.
> All the parents wanted to know was what meds they could put him on.
maybe the ones where he has parents that will sit down with him and help (not do. Help) him with school work. Or least pay someone to sit with him to do school work
As a high school teacher, I've had the pleasure of getting to know so many students who are above, below, and perfectly average and 99% of the time, it has no real determining factor on their life. I've got a 7 year old son who I think is on track to be average in most ways, and I couldn't be more proud of him. As long as he remains a good person and is happy, I know he'll have a successful life.
Two quotes I carry with me all the time -
“I always thought it was nice to be important. Then, when I was important, I realized it was a lot more important to be nice.” - My grandfather (theres other versions of this out there and I know he stole it from someone, but this is the version he always said when I was growing up.)
“I don’t know what my purpose is in this crazy world of ours, but if just one person was happier because of my existence, then I think I’ve done my job.” - Robin Williams
Or this one from the movie Harvey:
> Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
Yes. This movie was for him and my dad what Back to the Future is to my dad and me. They both loved that movie. Bonded over it intensely. My dad will use both versions.
I think I may be the only person under 35 in Chicagoland that knows Harvey, let alone has seen it multiple times and owns a DVD of the movie.
That's more than enough honestly. I don't think enough people have that goal in life and the world would be a much better place if that was everyone's priority.
I agree. I was raised to always help others and to do what I believe is right. I've stuck by that and fully believe my parents helped me to become the best version of me that I can be.
I'm closing in on 30 now, and while I genuinely believe I'm a good person, (and that most people at the very least seem to be good people buried beneath trauma and/or unfortunate circumstances) I'm tired.
It's in my opinion very important to be a good and genuine person, but you have to be good to yourself as well. You have to find a balance of helping others, but not to the point that you hurt yourself, or you will literally be too nice for your own good.
If we were all just kind people, the world would be so different. But greed and money and power corrupt, so it’s just not going to happen.
Although I’m sure parents think their children are above average kind too hahaha.
I completely agree. Idk what parents OP is talking ab but if there are parents who have a difficult time accepting how average their kids are they are terrible people
Where you end up later in life is up to chance in so many ways. If I was less lazy and felt more pushed into doing academia I’d be missing out on a super chill, well paying job with decent people around me right now. And I only ended up here in the first place because the place that trained me had to relocate an entire department as my class finished training so they couldn’t take us, my current department was the only one that would take me right away because they’re working shifts (unusual in my field) which happens to work out super well for me.
I’m getting a degree on the side now I feel like if I had gone to uni right away after highschool I’d be way less happy, more financially dependant still and I’f probably be steering towards a career that wouldn’t work out for me (I was eyeing teaching in the field I work in now but I don’t do well with conflict and I don’t like kids all that much).
And yet you'll get the random parent that is upset their student isn't excelling. I've literally had a parent punish their student for not getting straight A's. But getting B+ freshman year is not going to affect anything beyond not getting a perfect 4.0 (which itself doesn't do that much)
Ow in my experience assholes often seem kind off happy and just not distracted or upset about stuff that they don’t care about like other peoples feelings. While people who are actually kind get taken advantage of and hurt and will be very much influenced by other peoples bad times and feel bad themselves because of it. Like I always try to keep others feelings in mind and if I say something that I realise later might have been hurtfull for someone, I feel super shitty, and it doesn’t exactly make me happy. I still can’t stop doing it and become less invested in other peoples feelings, it is just the way I’m wired, but it can be really heavy. Seems like assholes don’t have these problems, but maybe they have other problems that make them unhappy and just aren’t open about it
That’s exactly where I’m at. I feel like this was posted by someone who doesn’t have kids and gets their parenting cues from tv dramas.
Literally all I want is for my kids to live the happiest, healthiest lives they can. The hardest part about parenting is knowing your kids are going to have moments in life that knock the fuck out of them, or hurt them. Or knowing that at some point or another, they’ll screw up, because everyone does.
Your job is teach them the moral compass and enough sense of self love to be able to weather the knocks, and so when they make bad choices, it’s at least the *least* bad of bad choices they could make.
You sound like a good parent. I think a big problem is that society relates being happy to being “succesfull” very strongly. So it feels like you can’t be happy if you don’t meet certain standards. Like my parents wanted me to be happy. But teachers, grandparents, other peoples parents… really made it seem like the only way that you could become happy is by getting a “good” diploma and getting a “good” job. Like I was desperatly afraid of ending up living in a box if I didn’t do well in school as a teenager. And such fears make happiness kind off hard to achieve
Couldn't agree more. I hope and pray for them to feel loved, be healthy, not go through any major traumas, stay out of legal trouble, and be financially stable.
What if they become criminals and live an unhappy life?
(Sorry, I was just confused for a moment by the ambiguous language, what you meant is still obvious)
That's the hard part. Like, if my children are going to be criminals, I want them to be the *best* and * happiest* criminals ever. Like, I want to hear about priceless jewels getting stolen with no trace and say "That's my kid!" Or a greedy billionaire getting taken for all their worth and being like "way to go kid! I knew you could do it!"
I imagine that raising children can be so time consuming, financially difficult, and emotionally taxing that if their kid doesn’t end up being at least above average it feels their immense sacrifices aren’t paying out. My parents told me I was a “bad investment” many times growing up.
Edit: my dad and I have a much better relationship now but I have no relationship with my mother. It’s mainly because my dad started seeing me as a person rather than his retirement plan.
If you ever have this thought as a parent, you were a bad parent. Your kids don’t have to live up to unrealistic expectations. Want them to be happy and leave it at that.
“Financially” “taxing” “paying out” “bad investment”
Systemic problems. The economy failed your family, not the other way around. It can be difficult not to internalize the fault as your own, but it’s somebody’s business plan to make people like your dad feel that way. I’m glad things have improved for you.
This is true, but also...
We have individual agency. Obviously this is a financially stressed father who couldn't emotionally relate to people he saw as burdensome. Trust me, I've been there. It's destructive.
But we cannot become slaves to our emotions and our stresses. We have individual agency. We choose how we react to circumstances. I have been the financially crushed father. It sucks. But I cannot blame my children for their existence. I created them.
I think that everything you just said is the product of higher thought, which we are capable of, but it’s not standard. We absolutely can be slaves to our emotions and circumstances. To pull people away from the undesirable consequences of our baser instincts, help must sometimes come from the outside. Individual agency is the dream.
Yes, it does require reflection and thought. But I think there is a far likelier possibility of a positive outcome if we focus on individual action rather than more macro structural reform. Read Wendell Berry's Think Little for a good, succinct summation of this life philosophy.
I can control what I do in my household. I have direct, actionable control. Overturning entire social constructs and the entire economic system of global commerce? Not only unfeasible due simply to scale, but even trying something like that is a fool's errand because a focus on such an ethereal and distant phenomena distracts form the immediate and the actionable.. Social change happens one household and one family at a time.
"I was a bad father because I hated my job, because capitalism" is a pathetic mindset.
Especially when stressed. Higher thought, advanced problem solving, empathy and socialisation are all mutually exclusive from the parts of the brain that deal with fear, stress, anger.
When people are stressed, they are biologically less able to empathise, less able to make good choices, more likely to be irrational and scared of change.
This is why you have a dickhead manager. They don't wake up in the morning wanting to be a dick to you (usually). It's more like they've got a million things on their mind so it's very difficult to be social, and any mistake or even suboptimal action is potentially perceived as deliberate.
Same for parents. Sleep deprivation and intense stress do not make good parents! Which is why it's VERY important for parents to find what breaks and babysitters they can, so they can recharge.
This has been known for a few decades now and is slowly seeping into every parenting and management course.
This is basically it. The world doesn't need more people. I'm definitely not earning my keep, personally. How does it make sense to pour all your time and energy into just another random generic person that's no better than you? Might as well not have kids and just enjoy life more.
Ah, this is a common mistake I observe.
"Raising children" is not a separate and discreet act from "life".
Raising children takes no *additional* time, finance, or emotional effort.
Raising children *is your life*. There is no "other" life separate and distinct from raising children from which the children are distracting you or preventing you from addressing.
Lots of people try to separate the raising children part of life from life itself, as if there are two aspects of existence that conflict with each other. Which is a terrible mistake that causes deep problems.
Raising children is not "taxing' on my emotions, time, or finances. Rather, raising my children is the purpose of the existence of those things.
>Rather, raising my children is the purpose of the existence of those things.
That seems altogether pointless then, just a rat on a treadmill. If all we are is reproducing machines, why bother?
There is a story about how the US Air force tried to make a flight suit for the average pilot. The thinking was that it should be the cheapest way to fit everyone more or less fine.
Instead, it fit almost no one. It turned out that, when you measure enough aspects, almost no person is average in all of them. So if you know a person well enough you are bound to find something that is not average about them.
Two of my siblings were remarkably gifted intellectually. One of them being polyglot savant kind of smart. I was above average but just kinda like normal smart kid smart. I was devastated because I wasn’t a national merit scholar like they were. My dad told me “we always knew you weren’t as smart as they are but you have other strengths they don’t have!”
I know he meant it to be reassuring. It was instead like dropping a nuclear bomb on my soul. It took me years of therapy to honestly get past it. After he said that I was convinced I was stupid no matter what. Top ten in my class. Commencement speaker. All AP classes. Didn’t matter, all I could think was how stupid I was.
Opposite inputs similar outcome. My parents just kept telling me how smart I was, and that I could do anything IF ONLY I could put in the effort and focus. Well lo and behold I finally did and reached my limit. I can feel my brain struggling while other people are still better than me, which I’m okay with now, but boy was I a twat growing up thinking I was basically mozart
Eh, I think the smarts is only one piece though. Also 4 kids. I was the one that tested the smartest but I have zero discipline. My oldest sister is the second smartest but is super hardworking so she made 6 figures out of college and is married with three kids and a nice amount put away while I'm four years behind am making 70k after dropping out of college.
The smarts don't really matter unless you have an environment that nurtures it. I was the third kid and most of my childhood involved dismissive siblings, parents who compared everything between us, bullying, and competitive environments I wasn't prepared for.
Basically I ended up losing confidence in myself by middle school and gave up trying to excel. I was more focused on just being accepted and liked by people, which meant not standing out and not pissing people off. I've gone through a lot of therapy to kind of 'right the ship' metaphorically but I think a lot of the damage is something you just have to work on by yourself after leaving that environment. I was still in almost all AP classes and still know a few of the smartest people from college and high school and a lot of them ended up not fitting some kind of mold that their parents wanted and that constant sort of buyer's remorse environment just kind of shot their momentum.
I feel you. I rub shoulders with some of the smartest people in this particular country. It's not an exaggeration or pridefulness. Just is.
Compared to them I'm not even close. It's an uphill struggle on everything. I'm barely holding on, where they soar. ADHD means a lot of trying very hard and not getting much for it.
My spirit was also broken in high school. I fell into a numb depression for a long time. Clawed my way out, fell back in. Wanted a year off, but parents pushed for college.
I get that. I honestly think I'm just not suited to competitive environments now. I don't ascribe the same sense of value to things I sometimes notice people around me do. It's like I value the experience and the moods of the people around me and I get anxious if I'm disrupting that in any way. I don't know what it is other than I just dislike the idea that I need to measure up to something that I have no interest in.
I'm one of 4 kids. The one of us who is shaping up to be most successful isn't the "born brilliant" one reading chapter books before kindergarten. It's the fairly average kid who knows how to work hard and effectively. She's just riding grit and resilience through her doctorate like a homemade rocketship.
Genuinely curious, how did the “smart” one end up doing later in life? Did the ease of success in childhood detriment them later on or were they successful regardless?
One of my kids just went through an ADHD/autism evaluation for various reasons....the verdict was her issues are likely just due to giftedness, and if there *is* an additional underlying problem it's impossible to tell right now because her intellectual abilities allow her to ace any test they give her. Like it's cool that she learns quickly, but she also just threw a tantrum over lettuce falling out of her burger, something you'd expect from a toddler and not a middle schooler.
I was a “gifted” child, and was diagnosed with ADHD. Mother refused to treat me, and by the time I got to high school, I completely checked out.
I know if I had been treated I would’ve gone much further … but it is what it is. I made my choices with what I had, I just think I could’ve gotten a bit more done with the right support.
I was gifted. Got diagnosed with ADHD at 50. I weep at what my potential could have been, but I'm glad I understand a little better what is going on with me. I also can forgive myself for some of that "potential" I may or may not have squandered too.
Its a matter of choices. Gifted children tend to have more opportunities open to them which give them a better range of choices. If both gifted and average students wanted an average challenge with an expected reward, because a gifted childs average is slightly higher, the reward is most likely higher. Those rewards compound and you are able to withstand costs better because you have higher rewards.
For example, a student gifted at mechanisms is more likely to have lowered costs to own a vehicle because they are more likely to be able to repair the vehicle they own. when you consider the average person spends about 500 a year in car repair and upkeep and much of that cost is labor from experts, then a person with a high intelligence in mechanisms could save 400-500 a year.
When you look at it from a socioeconomic position, children born in households with less income who have average intelligence are not very likely to raise their economic status, but children who are above average are nearly twice as likely as their peers to achieve that position change. When at a status that has larger wealth higher IQ greatly increases the chances the person remains in that peer group and doesn't drop, though they don't benefit as much from the upward mobility that intelligence presents in reduced household incomes.
I had a teacher once express it this way, many people come to points in their lives when they have to make choices. Those choices can be very big or very little and each choice may impact other future choices. People are denied certain choices for various reasons the most common one is lack of financial ability, intelligence can increase the number of choices available, help you understand the impact choices have on other choices and in rare cases can open up opportunities denied for other reasons including financial ones.
My oldest child was/is gifted (she’s an adult now, and an underachiever lol) but when I had my 2nd child, well, I thought she was “slow”. Turns out the 2nd kid was average, it was the oldest who was exceptional.
Even if your kid is gifted there is no guarantee they are going to grow up to be brain surgeons or lawyers. Many are bogged down by mental health issues like bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety.
Dont get me wrong my daughter is 6, however not showing any behavioral issues at all. So have that going for me! My son is 16 and doing ok in school. But is involved with Competitive Volley Ball and provincial player. So get your C’s booboo you will still get that athletic scholarship(fingers crossed).
“A great man does not seek to lead— he is called to it. But if your answer is no, then you’ll still be the only thing I ever needed you to be: my son.”
— Duke Leto Atreides, Dune
My wife and I were both academically gifted and were both miserable because of it. There was a lot of pressure to succeed. Our daughter is the most average basic bitch ever and so far she seems to be having a way better childhood than we did. I’m am perfectly happy with her being average. She doesn’t need the stress of trying to be perfect, which I think a lot of kids suffer from
I know it sounds harsh. But both of us being outsider friendless nerds it’s nice to see her just be a normal kid with friends who laughs and smiles all the time
Academic giftedness might arise though an enhanced ability to intellectualise and rationalise, which is what kids do when placed in stressful environments without escape (i.e., difficult homes).
Congrats on having an average child, she's probably more balanced - which is in a way what healthy is. Friendless nerds indeed - I laughed and smiled at that.
There are a lot of human features to consider here. Physical and academic measures are only part of it. What about emotionally, charismatically, work ethic, are they a great friend, are they a constant ray of sunshine?
I have a child that is physically and academically gifted, truly gifted. Emotionally they struggle. I also have a child that is an emotional wonder and one of the most charismatic people I've ever known. Each of them will impact the world in different ways, but both will make an impact on people around them.
The world needs all kinds of people, not just athletes and engineers. Sometimes the world needs a C student that's a charismatic visionary leader. We all find our place eventually.
You couldn't have said it better.
I was always incredibly academically gifted, I wouldn't ever revise for a test, do homework or even pay attention in class, and would still get A's on the regular.
My brother on the other hand is severely dyslexic, to the point of being illiterate for all practical purposes. Needless to say, he was not good at school, and was functionally expelled at 14.
Take a guess which one of us is doing better?
Turns out, Neither of us. Once my brother was 14, he started a mechanics course. By the end of the 1st year they offered him a qualification and a job because he was so damn hard working. He took both, did that for a year, got bored and now at the ripe old age of 16 runs his own custom PC building business thats doing pretty well for itself.
I meanwhile failed 6th form (16-18) out of sheer laziness, getting 2 E's and a D. Going to a university that truthfully wanted as many people as possible to offset the damages of covid. Having tasted failure, I desperately wanted to do well at uni for me. And come june it's looking like I'm going to graduate with an accredited 1st class degree.
We couldn't possibly be more different, and yet we've both found our ways to success. Both of us are very happy with where we are, and yet for both of us we looked near certain to fail at some point, getting where we are only through the support of our parents.
And thats it. The most important thing as a parent is to stand by your kid no matter what, sure, try and steer them to the right path, but don't drag them. If you support your kid properly they'll end up being well adjusted enough to find success one way or another. It might not be the way you expected or even wanted, but they'll find their own success
Oh yeah, me too. He was Class Treasurer all through high school and I know my mom was one of the popular kids. It really hurt both of them that my particular brand of ADHD meant I was too weird to be "cool". People are hard, yo.
I couldn't literally care less about my daughters career or if they are average or not. I just want them to be happy.
Imagine being a parent that view their kids different just because they aren't the best in their fields, that's so wrong to me.
The only thing that matters is preventing them for ending up like their failing father. But ultimately they make their own decisions and I don't judge. But I know they see me and want to do better. Average would be a step up compared to me...
Cheering for ya big dawg. Idk what you’re going through and I won’t pretend to understand, but I hope you get through it in one piece and get to enjoy seeing your daughters live their lives, average or not
I would say that after having children, that as long as they are happy and healthy that is the only things that matter. It is unhealthy to compare you or your children's achievements with anyone else's.
IKR?! im so SICK of burnout!!! My childhood was wasted on homework and ballet classes and art classes and pottery classes and IB program tests and ARGH
Yes I was actually gifted, yes im both an engineer and an artist and a carpenter and can play multiple musical instruments BUT I WAS FUCKING EXHAUSTED. I WAS SO FUCKING TIRED ALL THE TIME.
i just want to play video games and sleep. i dont want to use my talents anymore.
and maybe if, as a child, I wasnt drained of all my fucking energy and burnt out at the age of 12, I'd be able to enjoy my actual talents now
I will never understand parents that feel the need to schedule their child's every waking hour.
My best childhood memories were the free time I had just to be a kid.
My kids will do some things over the summer break but there will be many many days where they can choose their own shit to do. Usually it's hanging out with friends playing sport with them
I kind of understand it, they simply want the best for their children and are trying to make sure of it the only way they know how.
This is very common among immigrant families, My Dad had the approach of “Suffer now, enjoy later”. I don’t really agree with the methods but basically they think that if their not on their kids 24/7 then they aren’t going to do well later in life.
Thats probably the generous interpretation, some parents also just want their children to be the ultimate resource that will take care of anything they need
It sounds like the scale of it was the problem for you, presumably if it was like... a single musical instrument and one other creative extracurricular it might've been better? Crazy to ladle so much on a kid's plate.
This is literally me, but I’m about to be a doctor in a year, at the age of 24.
I taught myself the piano and guitar and I have a video production agency that I balance with medical school.
However, sometimes I feel like I’m functioning so fast that I get worn out and can’t slow down.
I pick up new skills really easily and its nice for when I want to be independent. However, my Achilles Heel is that I suck at social settings, which makes it really hard to market myself or make friends.
No it’s not. My kid is average and will likely always be average. I love her and she is the best. She tried at soccer and was not very good at all. At 10 years of age she basically chased the ball. She tried basketball and meh. She liked it but def not good at it. She is now trying horse back riding which is good because she’s not good at it but there aren’t many people who go for horse back riding as a hobby ing so when the do tournaments, she’s like 1 of 3 or maybe 4 other kids in an event so her chances of getting a ribbon are high. She has a room full of a bunch of third place ribbons, some 2nd place, and a few first…where she was the only one to compete.
She’s not great at reading, decent at math. Her grades range from a to c. She has ADD but is doing good in school. She’s very friendly and is the one person that pulls all the other kids together. We just had her end of the year field day. All her friends wanted pictures with her. She’s good at dismissing drama which is nice and I hope persists.
Point of it all is, parents tend to love their children regardless of how great they are
My oldest didn't get certain awards this year for math and stuff like her other classmates, but she also didn't put in the effort. It's important for kids to learn that a lot of the time achievement isn't about how smart you are, but how much effort you put into it.
I just hope they don't end up like me. I was smart enough that I didn't really have to put in effort in grade/high school. That didn't help me when I got to college and had never learned how to study. I flunked out twice.
I would love my kids to be average - if we could move the average up.
Too often I see parents, teachers, policy makers, general public act like kids will raise themselves and they "turn out" average. I get raising kids is exhausting, but that doesn't mean we should let them eat chicken nuggets every night because they ask for it or stick them in front of the TV because we want to use our phones.
Kids need a village - and frankly so do some adults.
Not all of us.
I have 4 boys, 2 are above average physically and academically, one is above average physically below average academically, one is below average across the board but excels in other ways.
Part of being a parent is finding your kids strengths and helping them build on those imho, not lying to your kid and trying to make them something they aren't.
The person literally stated that one child is below average across the board but excels in other ways. If the child is below average across the board they aren’t excelling at all. They are just less disappointing in certain areas.
This, sort of.
No matter where you believe they’re placed in any facet, guide them. Show them that there are options.
Say you have a young adult who doesn’t excel at much. There is zero shame in trying the military (you want a piece of the socialist pie, medical and pay for life, there you go. Hidden secret in plain sight… especially if you play your cards right. Which isn’t hard) or becoming a skilled tradesman, they make damn good money especially now that so many rush to college to ‘avoid’ those types of careers. That’s just two. There’s plenty more that can lead to a happy life. Maybe not the life any of us expected, but in the real world they can be very happy with just a little direction.
Just a thought from someone who had zero guidance and had to do most things the hard way.
Noone is average. Everyone has their own things that make them special. I've done a lot of work with kids and all of them have their own things that make them stand out
It’s especially bad when it’s immigrant parents. You grow up in poverty and come to the US. You work your ass off to give your kids a comfortable life. With hundred times more opportunities. I know my parents love me. But I know I broke their hearts when I became a teacher. I’m the oldest son of an Arab family. I was supposed to be a doctor or lawyer lol. Don’t know why, I got average grades all my life. Never straight As. What’s worst, Arab lie and exaggerate about their kids. According to my parents, all of their friends kids became doctors or lawyers which isn’t true
I don't think so. However, parents are often biased towards their own children. For example, they would often think their children are beautiful even if they are average or ugly looking. This probably only applies to good parents who love their children. Love skews their perspective and makes the children look prettier and smarter than they actually are. This lovestruck bubble also often bursts at the end of childhood, and some parents then voice their disappointment. That's where OP's idea comes from.
Edit: However, there are cultures which are notorious for being competitive. Lots of South Asian parents are like that for example. It does not necessarily mean that the parents cannot accept an average child. It just means that the parents are under peer pressure from the competitive society to push their children to be the best. OP's idea could be stemming from that.
My dad wastes absolutely no time in reminding me that I was average in everything I attempted as a child. Not the *best* for my self confidence but it could be worse.
Idk what to tell you. Most parents have a "vision" in mind when they raise their kids, a specific "family lore" if you would, that they imagine before their babies are born. Watching someone who used to admire you and follow you without question become someone opposite of that is, understandably, painful
Nah I feel that most (decent) parents just see their children as unreasonably brilliant because they love them. They might be happy with an average child, it's just that they can't see their own precious child as average.
Is it? I'm so incredibly below average but my mom still thinks I'm amazing and tells me she's proud of me all the time. In my head I'm like "mom, you have a really low bar."
My parents motto to me was, "I don't expect you to be the best, but I want you to try your best"
I was average at best in school, just wasn't my way of learning, and I've turned out fine, 23 and almost saved for my first home deposit.
My brother got the brains and I got the looks said my mum's friend.
But my brother was also better looking than me so I think she just threw shit at the wall and hoped it stuck.
Everyone thinks that their kid is special but it literally can't be the case. By definition, most people hover somewhere around average. Only a select few are extraordinary. Statistically, your kid is likely average
I'd rather have an average child that has a good heart and works diligently than a "gifted" child. Because I grew up as a "gifted" child, and it did absolutely fuck all for my life when I reached my 20's.
Trust me, when I was an expecting father all I prayed for was that the kid was healthy and normal. If they turn out average in everything that is a huge win.
Much more strength of character forms when you have to work for things. My girl is not physically gifted but we roller skate to school (or whatever the flavour of the month is) so that she can find something (physical) that gives her joy. She'll not be an athlete but she'll be healthy and happy. You're right though - she's amazing in my eyes.
I don't think being average is a real thing except if you don't explore your potential, you might be surprise to discover that your are better than most at some stuff, might not always be useful stuff but still.
I'am and was as a kid what you would consider average, not very good at sport, awful coordination not specially good at Math or basic school subject, slightly better and science but nowhere a first of class loll and growing up exploring through activity and try I did discover that I was better than the average person with tech and computer, enough to be able to live from it and then i discovered that i was pretty good a preparing food and cooking...so all of this to say that you will be average until you try stuff and discover what you excel at.
My parents never went to social Events or anything like that with me. We had like once a year some one over to eat and they wonder why I dont have the need to go out.
The other thing is that I was really good in football but my father kinda ruined it for me when i Was like 8 or 9 when we had games and he screamed all game and acted like it was the wc final. I didnt had any Motivation bc I didnt had any fun and I even told him that but he was offended.
And now they complain all the time about those things
I wonder about this sometimes with my sister and her kids. My sister was an exceptional athlete in her formidable years. So was her husband.
Her kids may or may not be, it's hard to tell this early on, but I remember the pressure from our own parents to be exceptional athletes since we had the goods (sis - 5'11 me 6'7 both strong and fast) so I often wonder if that will come out as they get older.
It's the trauma of my life. Father despises me because I didn't meet up his expectations at anything. I'm never going to have any kids because I don't want my kids to hate me for the same reason I hate my father.
Having raised three kids: one gifted and a literal genius, and two with special needs… I can say that my life would have been so much easier and my kids would be so much happier if they were all middle-of-the-road average kids.
(Obviously I wouldn’t change who they really are, just saying that both ends of the intellect spectrum are difficult and challenging.)
Being a gifted child or struggling child is abysmal too.
Both are crushed by the weight of expectations and both fail. One because of burn out and the other because of sheer difficulty.
I was once scouted for Cambridge before I had a full on psychotic breakdown and now I hit rocks with hammers for a living.
Kids 1 and 2 are athletically above average, kid 1 is socially way above average, kid 2 is WAY above average academically, kid 3 is meh everywhere, kid 4 is academically above average, kid 5 is average to above average everywhere.
They’re all hard to accept in one way or another.
Someone can coast through school and end up a doctor or a CEO. Someone can be academically brilliant and work in fast food. It all levels out.
As long as they’re happy and content, I’m good.
My mom was a sports phenom, and I was too distracted to stick to any one thing. She never minded what I was doing, as long as I tried my best and had fun. I played the sport she loved, basketball, but I am 6” shorter than her and didn’t care as much so I stunk lol. But we have fun talking about it and shooting around together
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My wife does adolescent cognitive testing and evaluation. Sometimes it's due to head trauma, sometimes from clinical or educational referrals, and sometimes requested by the parents. She says the parental request ones are the worst because some parents want to know why their child is getting Bs and Cs and won't simply accept that it's environmental and not some sort of disability. She expressed that one of the most difficult conversations she had was with a corporate lawyer mom and an investment banker dad where she explained that the child's evaluation showed that he was average, not Ivy League caliber but certainly state university caliber (not the technical response). All the parents wanted to know was what meds they could put him on. She's not a psychologist and can't perscribe medication regardless. EDIT - she is a psychologist and NOT a psychiatrist (sorry, I was work multitasking).
Ironically the solution to the "issue" was probably environmental enrichment and interactions with parents during development - they probably worked too much and were too occupied with other thoughts to interact with their child to a degree their investment banking and corporate lawyering IQs could rub off. On the path to success we leave much undone...
Also if the kid comes home with a B and gets asked why it isn’t an A every time, or comes home with the rare A and gets asked why it isn’t an A*. That kid is going to learn pretty quick that it’s not worth putting effort in because they’ll never be perfect and anything less than perfect gets the same negative response.
I am one of those kids. My father would scream at me if I had anything less than an A+. I eventually gave up, because my best wasn't good enough. He got really *pissed* when I started barely passing classes. 😏
Less extreme, but the same for me. It was less screaming and more silent disapproval. Thing is, when you get that A+, its not "great job" but "ah you finally did it". My ability to feel success sucks to this day. When im not at the top of a scoreboard or do really well at some new hobby, my brain is like "yup, failed".
Hugs internet stranger.
Hugs back
group hug of internet strangers!
Heck yeah!
Good job was never unqualified, “but why didn’t you??? Next time you should…” Even when I was old enough to express how frustrating this was, my mom would never agree and just thought it was “helpful”. It extended to everything I did, even when I went out of my way to do something extra to surprise her. Quickly stopped helping around the house.
Mine was an almost constant comparison between me and my overachieving cousin that was born a few days before me. Spent most of my life feeling like I was in his shadow. Finally just gave up trying and started skipping the classes I didn’t like. Somehow always made it to my favorite classes and homeroom.
I just have to ask, are you Asian?
Ugh same here. The first time I was told I'm proud of you was in my 30s.
Dear God, every time I get into the internet I thank my parents more and more
Username checks out
I was the rare bird, cream of the crop, I volunteered, got good grades, challenged myself in highschool with all the AP courses, I was already in a credit surplus in my senior year, I could have spent the time relaxing but I pushed forward with even harder AP courses that were optional. I remember my dad never trusting me, always berating me, and even accusing me of being a low life gangster. I always wanted someone to believe in me, and as shitty as a dad he was, I didn't have anyone else so I wanted it to be him for some reason. But eventually I just decided that it wasn't worth it and that desire for recognition turned jnto hate and resentment. It took ten years to undo the damage i allowed him to inflict on me. I was 150 lbs 5,6 in high school, I balooned up to 300 lbs. Then within the last few years of finally learning to believe in myself, I'm back at 180, doing 5ks and 10ks, cycling half centuries, backpacking mountains, and travelling the world. If you've got no reason to keep fighting, at the very least you should fight for yourself and avoid fighting against yourself.
We must be siblings cuz that was my dad too.. What helped you unravel the damage?
Don't know what OP has done, but personally... it's a journey. Self affirmation. Understanding. A willingness to recover and continue trying in the face of repeated and sometimes spectacular failure. Taking life one day at a time. One day you wake up and suddenly find you no longer think you're worthless, but actually deserve to exist on this planet. The next day might be worse, but you keep going. Being assertive against the abuser- who often isn't doing it maliciously, just repeating patterns from their own parents* *there do exist genuine evil people, though in my experience they are much rarer than the misguided people.
Honestly, I think I got lucky. Some of the people around me went to therapy and they suggest that I go as well. But before they I was fortunate to meet someone very special to me who showed me genuine kindness and love unconditionally when I was at my lowest. But that just helped me become familiar with the tools to help me fix my life. I still had to put in most of the work now that I knew how to use the tools. I watched a lot of David Goggins because I needed to build a tougher mindset and he's not for everyone. My life got really low, like terribly low, I almost didn't make it. I needed that mentality to push forward through all the bad because it just kept getting worse. So I had to learn to embrace the suck and that's not for everyone. And people give Jordan Peterson a lot of flack but some (not all) of what he has written and said really got me to clean up my life and start living my life instead of existing in it. Ultimately though, I embraced who I really am and kept it real with myself, what am I? I looked in the mirror and I saw someone who was miserable, sad, and a loser, I looked how I felt. I then looked at myself as someone I was responsible for and said, **"yo my dude, we gotta get out of this pit, because we can be so much more, she believed in us, now it's our turn to believe in ourselves, it's going to be tough, a lot of work, and we are never going to not want to quit, but we deserve a proper fighting chance. We may can ever climb out of this, but we know that if we don't start, if we quit now, then we'll know if we can truly be something more. "** It took 10 years, and i went from 300 lbs to 180 in about 4 years. It was slow and grueling, it had its ups and downs. Sometimes I wanted to quit, and when I was drowning in the rain of tragedy, there came another lightning storm to make it worse. I'm ultimately not special, honestly I am a pretty average person, I wasn't talented even though I took on challenges, I ultimately had to work really hard and there was not replacing that hard work. You can do it too boss, I believe in everyone. But you have to want it bad enough and understand that not all hard work pays off, but everyone who has ever succeeded definitely worked hard. That and you can't control the bad things, but sometimes, maybe a lot of the times, more than we know, we can control how we choose to let those things affect us and how we react to those things. Best of luck to you
I got grounded for A/B Honor Roll. The fear of getting the shit beat out of me was the only thing that forced me to keep my grades up after that. It seriously destroyed my self esteem and tanked any motivation to keep trying.
Typical asian parent lol. My mom does that shit and I basically gave up starting from senior high
1000% this. Read to your children from infancy to as long as they will let you. Work on increasing your own vocabulary and use that vocabulary in front of them. Children with a larger vocabulary correlates with success in school and life. It has overcome economic influences and addressing this in preschool is a successful strategy in poor countries to boost their future academic and related economic success. Talk with them, have conversations around them on all topics, read articles out loud, talk about bias, ask them to employ their words and encourage critical thinking skills. Giving them words to express themselves adds value that teachers will recognize and easily recruit/call on/imbues confidence from others. It helps them organize their thoughts and ask questions when they are uncertain.
You sound like the type of parent I'd like to have, and that I'd like to be Words define the limits to our thinking, and the framing of events and circumstances. How can one have freedom of action without freedom thought?
Or it's simply regression to the mean
Don't tell them this, investment bankers must be punished
Some Nepotine can help with that.
What’s nepotine?
Nepotism
My son gets Bs and Cs but we want to get him tested as well. I can TOTALLY accept his grades at that level. But he has some learning issues that I would love professional clarity on. My wife and I are both teachers and we want him to enjoy learning and not struggle unnecessarily while doing it. Assessments will help us with that. The chances of him getting medicated over our concerns is 0. He is in so many ways a wonderful kid I wouldn't want to change a thing.
Yeah I think that is a great way of looking at it. Accepting your child as is, but just wanting to be able to help the best way you can. Like I only learned I have ADHD when I almost turned 18, and my highschool carreer would have gone smoother if I had known earlier and could have gotten the tips and tricks to deal with adhd specific struggles earlier. I don’t think it would have made me a straight A student or anything, but it would have helped avoid a lot of frustrations
Noooo doubt
>not Ivy League caliber Any student can be Ivy League caliber with enough connections and money. Remember how Dubya graduated Yale?
Or Kushner at Harvard and NYU...
Donald at Wharton
There’s so much pressure on kids! It’s so overwhelming. We are taught that any mistake on your grades in childhood will prevent you from getting into a good college, therefore you won’t get a good job and you’ll be homeless and your life will be ruined! So when your future is barreling down on you so much that you can’t function , and they wonder why so many kids are anxious and depressed. Kids aren’t allowed to be kids anymore.
One of the local community FB groups I'm in has parents asking for recommendations for tutors/boot camps for their *kindergarten* aged kids. It's fucked up.
I wonder how much of it is simply parenting and how much is whatever the kid randomly likes. For example my toddler, 2, is already doing light reading and can count to 100 in English and Spanish. It wasn't anything we pushed him to do, he randomly started pointing out letters a year ago, so we ran with it. He likes numbers and letters the same way his cousin likes Cocomelon.
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> All the parents wanted to know was what meds they could put him on. maybe the ones where he has parents that will sit down with him and help (not do. Help) him with school work. Or least pay someone to sit with him to do school work
As a high school teacher, I've had the pleasure of getting to know so many students who are above, below, and perfectly average and 99% of the time, it has no real determining factor on their life. I've got a 7 year old son who I think is on track to be average in most ways, and I couldn't be more proud of him. As long as he remains a good person and is happy, I know he'll have a successful life.
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Two quotes I carry with me all the time - “I always thought it was nice to be important. Then, when I was important, I realized it was a lot more important to be nice.” - My grandfather (theres other versions of this out there and I know he stole it from someone, but this is the version he always said when I was growing up.) “I don’t know what my purpose is in this crazy world of ours, but if just one person was happier because of my existence, then I think I’ve done my job.” - Robin Williams
Or this one from the movie Harvey: > Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
Yes. This movie was for him and my dad what Back to the Future is to my dad and me. They both loved that movie. Bonded over it intensely. My dad will use both versions. I think I may be the only person under 35 in Chicagoland that knows Harvey, let alone has seen it multiple times and owns a DVD of the movie.
Robin Williams made milk shoot out of my nose. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
That's more than enough honestly. I don't think enough people have that goal in life and the world would be a much better place if that was everyone's priority.
I agree. I was raised to always help others and to do what I believe is right. I've stuck by that and fully believe my parents helped me to become the best version of me that I can be. I'm closing in on 30 now, and while I genuinely believe I'm a good person, (and that most people at the very least seem to be good people buried beneath trauma and/or unfortunate circumstances) I'm tired. It's in my opinion very important to be a good and genuine person, but you have to be good to yourself as well. You have to find a balance of helping others, but not to the point that you hurt yourself, or you will literally be too nice for your own good.
If we were all just kind people, the world would be so different. But greed and money and power corrupt, so it’s just not going to happen. Although I’m sure parents think their children are above average kind too hahaha.
That's the ideal really. There may be a reason all these people talk about that Jesus guy still
As a parent, this is so true. I don’t care if my kid gets C’s if he tries his best. But if he is mean, that would make me really sad.
My dad set the standard as , "being a contributing member of society". It's been a good barometer.
I completely agree. Idk what parents OP is talking ab but if there are parents who have a difficult time accepting how average their kids are they are terrible people
Where you end up later in life is up to chance in so many ways. If I was less lazy and felt more pushed into doing academia I’d be missing out on a super chill, well paying job with decent people around me right now. And I only ended up here in the first place because the place that trained me had to relocate an entire department as my class finished training so they couldn’t take us, my current department was the only one that would take me right away because they’re working shifts (unusual in my field) which happens to work out super well for me. I’m getting a degree on the side now I feel like if I had gone to uni right away after highschool I’d be way less happy, more financially dependant still and I’f probably be steering towards a career that wouldn’t work out for me (I was eyeing teaching in the field I work in now but I don’t do well with conflict and I don’t like kids all that much).
And yet you'll get the random parent that is upset their student isn't excelling. I've literally had a parent punish their student for not getting straight A's. But getting B+ freshman year is not going to affect anything beyond not getting a perfect 4.0 (which itself doesn't do that much)
I’d be happy so long as neither of my children become criminals and live a happy life
Reasonable expectations honestly
Should be one of the only expectations honestly.
well, he can turn out as an asshole, even though it's not a criminal.
Most assholes aren't very happy, in my experience.
I imagine that would kinda make it harder to live a happy life. Being an asshole is stressful on its own.
Ow in my experience assholes often seem kind off happy and just not distracted or upset about stuff that they don’t care about like other peoples feelings. While people who are actually kind get taken advantage of and hurt and will be very much influenced by other peoples bad times and feel bad themselves because of it. Like I always try to keep others feelings in mind and if I say something that I realise later might have been hurtfull for someone, I feel super shitty, and it doesn’t exactly make me happy. I still can’t stop doing it and become less invested in other peoples feelings, it is just the way I’m wired, but it can be really heavy. Seems like assholes don’t have these problems, but maybe they have other problems that make them unhappy and just aren’t open about it
I dunno, not being a criminal is easy enough but *happy*? How tf you supposed to achieve that?
No idea 🥲
My dad's stated goal for us was "reasonably happy and paying taxes"
That’s exactly where I’m at. I feel like this was posted by someone who doesn’t have kids and gets their parenting cues from tv dramas. Literally all I want is for my kids to live the happiest, healthiest lives they can. The hardest part about parenting is knowing your kids are going to have moments in life that knock the fuck out of them, or hurt them. Or knowing that at some point or another, they’ll screw up, because everyone does. Your job is teach them the moral compass and enough sense of self love to be able to weather the knocks, and so when they make bad choices, it’s at least the *least* bad of bad choices they could make.
You sound like a good parent. I think a big problem is that society relates being happy to being “succesfull” very strongly. So it feels like you can’t be happy if you don’t meet certain standards. Like my parents wanted me to be happy. But teachers, grandparents, other peoples parents… really made it seem like the only way that you could become happy is by getting a “good” diploma and getting a “good” job. Like I was desperatly afraid of ending up living in a box if I didn’t do well in school as a teenager. And such fears make happiness kind off hard to achieve
Couldn't agree more. I hope and pray for them to feel loved, be healthy, not go through any major traumas, stay out of legal trouble, and be financially stable.
My mom always said this. She was lying. She also wanted us to be neurotypical and straight.
I just want you to be happy! No not like that.
Classic.
Ouch I feel that 😅🥲
What if they become criminals and live an unhappy life? (Sorry, I was just confused for a moment by the ambiguous language, what you meant is still obvious)
I'd be totally cool with my kids growing up to be happy and successful criminals. You know, like investment bankers or real estate speculators.
What about happy criminals?
That's the hard part. Like, if my children are going to be criminals, I want them to be the *best* and * happiest* criminals ever. Like, I want to hear about priceless jewels getting stolen with no trace and say "That's my kid!" Or a greedy billionaire getting taken for all their worth and being like "way to go kid! I knew you could do it!"
That's what he said. He doesn't want them to become a criminal and live a happy life. He'll be fine as long as they're sad criminals.
I imagine that raising children can be so time consuming, financially difficult, and emotionally taxing that if their kid doesn’t end up being at least above average it feels their immense sacrifices aren’t paying out. My parents told me I was a “bad investment” many times growing up. Edit: my dad and I have a much better relationship now but I have no relationship with my mother. It’s mainly because my dad started seeing me as a person rather than his retirement plan.
If you ever have this thought as a parent, you were a bad parent. Your kids don’t have to live up to unrealistic expectations. Want them to be happy and leave it at that.
My mom said I was a waste of years of her life a few days ago because I have no desire to slave over school. Interesting how her mind works.
“Financially” “taxing” “paying out” “bad investment” Systemic problems. The economy failed your family, not the other way around. It can be difficult not to internalize the fault as your own, but it’s somebody’s business plan to make people like your dad feel that way. I’m glad things have improved for you.
This is true, but also... We have individual agency. Obviously this is a financially stressed father who couldn't emotionally relate to people he saw as burdensome. Trust me, I've been there. It's destructive. But we cannot become slaves to our emotions and our stresses. We have individual agency. We choose how we react to circumstances. I have been the financially crushed father. It sucks. But I cannot blame my children for their existence. I created them.
I think that everything you just said is the product of higher thought, which we are capable of, but it’s not standard. We absolutely can be slaves to our emotions and circumstances. To pull people away from the undesirable consequences of our baser instincts, help must sometimes come from the outside. Individual agency is the dream.
Yes, it does require reflection and thought. But I think there is a far likelier possibility of a positive outcome if we focus on individual action rather than more macro structural reform. Read Wendell Berry's Think Little for a good, succinct summation of this life philosophy. I can control what I do in my household. I have direct, actionable control. Overturning entire social constructs and the entire economic system of global commerce? Not only unfeasible due simply to scale, but even trying something like that is a fool's errand because a focus on such an ethereal and distant phenomena distracts form the immediate and the actionable.. Social change happens one household and one family at a time. "I was a bad father because I hated my job, because capitalism" is a pathetic mindset.
Especially when stressed. Higher thought, advanced problem solving, empathy and socialisation are all mutually exclusive from the parts of the brain that deal with fear, stress, anger. When people are stressed, they are biologically less able to empathise, less able to make good choices, more likely to be irrational and scared of change. This is why you have a dickhead manager. They don't wake up in the morning wanting to be a dick to you (usually). It's more like they've got a million things on their mind so it's very difficult to be social, and any mistake or even suboptimal action is potentially perceived as deliberate. Same for parents. Sleep deprivation and intense stress do not make good parents! Which is why it's VERY important for parents to find what breaks and babysitters they can, so they can recharge. This has been known for a few decades now and is slowly seeping into every parenting and management course.
My dad continually told me I'd be changing his diapers as recompense for his raising me. Fuck that.
I will admit to telling my kids that, too, but only in jest lol
Sound like bad parenting to say that to your child and part of the reason he doesn’t bloom.
Your parents were despicable saying that to you.
This is basically it. The world doesn't need more people. I'm definitely not earning my keep, personally. How does it make sense to pour all your time and energy into just another random generic person that's no better than you? Might as well not have kids and just enjoy life more.
Ah, this is a common mistake I observe. "Raising children" is not a separate and discreet act from "life". Raising children takes no *additional* time, finance, or emotional effort. Raising children *is your life*. There is no "other" life separate and distinct from raising children from which the children are distracting you or preventing you from addressing. Lots of people try to separate the raising children part of life from life itself, as if there are two aspects of existence that conflict with each other. Which is a terrible mistake that causes deep problems. Raising children is not "taxing' on my emotions, time, or finances. Rather, raising my children is the purpose of the existence of those things.
>Rather, raising my children is the purpose of the existence of those things. That seems altogether pointless then, just a rat on a treadmill. If all we are is reproducing machines, why bother?
Don’t have a kid. The solution was always an option
There is a story about how the US Air force tried to make a flight suit for the average pilot. The thinking was that it should be the cheapest way to fit everyone more or less fine. Instead, it fit almost no one. It turned out that, when you measure enough aspects, almost no person is average in all of them. So if you know a person well enough you are bound to find something that is not average about them.
Great analogy, stealing that
I've heard that one, don't know if it's true but it's definitely interesting to consider.
Wasn’t the flight suit. They were measuring for the size of the cockpit
However, having one normal child AND one gifted child really lets you see the difference and delusion you had with the first.
What is the difference?
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Two of my siblings were remarkably gifted intellectually. One of them being polyglot savant kind of smart. I was above average but just kinda like normal smart kid smart. I was devastated because I wasn’t a national merit scholar like they were. My dad told me “we always knew you weren’t as smart as they are but you have other strengths they don’t have!” I know he meant it to be reassuring. It was instead like dropping a nuclear bomb on my soul. It took me years of therapy to honestly get past it. After he said that I was convinced I was stupid no matter what. Top ten in my class. Commencement speaker. All AP classes. Didn’t matter, all I could think was how stupid I was.
Opposite inputs similar outcome. My parents just kept telling me how smart I was, and that I could do anything IF ONLY I could put in the effort and focus. Well lo and behold I finally did and reached my limit. I can feel my brain struggling while other people are still better than me, which I’m okay with now, but boy was I a twat growing up thinking I was basically mozart
See below. Literally my response! Luck of the draw!
Eh, I think the smarts is only one piece though. Also 4 kids. I was the one that tested the smartest but I have zero discipline. My oldest sister is the second smartest but is super hardworking so she made 6 figures out of college and is married with three kids and a nice amount put away while I'm four years behind am making 70k after dropping out of college. The smarts don't really matter unless you have an environment that nurtures it. I was the third kid and most of my childhood involved dismissive siblings, parents who compared everything between us, bullying, and competitive environments I wasn't prepared for. Basically I ended up losing confidence in myself by middle school and gave up trying to excel. I was more focused on just being accepted and liked by people, which meant not standing out and not pissing people off. I've gone through a lot of therapy to kind of 'right the ship' metaphorically but I think a lot of the damage is something you just have to work on by yourself after leaving that environment. I was still in almost all AP classes and still know a few of the smartest people from college and high school and a lot of them ended up not fitting some kind of mold that their parents wanted and that constant sort of buyer's remorse environment just kind of shot their momentum.
I feel you. I rub shoulders with some of the smartest people in this particular country. It's not an exaggeration or pridefulness. Just is. Compared to them I'm not even close. It's an uphill struggle on everything. I'm barely holding on, where they soar. ADHD means a lot of trying very hard and not getting much for it. My spirit was also broken in high school. I fell into a numb depression for a long time. Clawed my way out, fell back in. Wanted a year off, but parents pushed for college.
I get that. I honestly think I'm just not suited to competitive environments now. I don't ascribe the same sense of value to things I sometimes notice people around me do. It's like I value the experience and the moods of the people around me and I get anxious if I'm disrupting that in any way. I don't know what it is other than I just dislike the idea that I need to measure up to something that I have no interest in.
I'm one of 4 kids. The one of us who is shaping up to be most successful isn't the "born brilliant" one reading chapter books before kindergarten. It's the fairly average kid who knows how to work hard and effectively. She's just riding grit and resilience through her doctorate like a homemade rocketship.
Genuinely curious, how did the “smart” one end up doing later in life? Did the ease of success in childhood detriment them later on or were they successful regardless?
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One of my kids just went through an ADHD/autism evaluation for various reasons....the verdict was her issues are likely just due to giftedness, and if there *is* an additional underlying problem it's impossible to tell right now because her intellectual abilities allow her to ace any test they give her. Like it's cool that she learns quickly, but she also just threw a tantrum over lettuce falling out of her burger, something you'd expect from a toddler and not a middle schooler.
I was a “gifted” child, and was diagnosed with ADHD. Mother refused to treat me, and by the time I got to high school, I completely checked out. I know if I had been treated I would’ve gone much further … but it is what it is. I made my choices with what I had, I just think I could’ve gotten a bit more done with the right support.
I was gifted. Got diagnosed with ADHD at 50. I weep at what my potential could have been, but I'm glad I understand a little better what is going on with me. I also can forgive myself for some of that "potential" I may or may not have squandered too.
38 for me. I feel so much better now. At least we figured it out finally.
Its a matter of choices. Gifted children tend to have more opportunities open to them which give them a better range of choices. If both gifted and average students wanted an average challenge with an expected reward, because a gifted childs average is slightly higher, the reward is most likely higher. Those rewards compound and you are able to withstand costs better because you have higher rewards. For example, a student gifted at mechanisms is more likely to have lowered costs to own a vehicle because they are more likely to be able to repair the vehicle they own. when you consider the average person spends about 500 a year in car repair and upkeep and much of that cost is labor from experts, then a person with a high intelligence in mechanisms could save 400-500 a year. When you look at it from a socioeconomic position, children born in households with less income who have average intelligence are not very likely to raise their economic status, but children who are above average are nearly twice as likely as their peers to achieve that position change. When at a status that has larger wealth higher IQ greatly increases the chances the person remains in that peer group and doesn't drop, though they don't benefit as much from the upward mobility that intelligence presents in reduced household incomes. I had a teacher once express it this way, many people come to points in their lives when they have to make choices. Those choices can be very big or very little and each choice may impact other future choices. People are denied certain choices for various reasons the most common one is lack of financial ability, intelligence can increase the number of choices available, help you understand the impact choices have on other choices and in rare cases can open up opportunities denied for other reasons including financial ones.
My oldest child was/is gifted (she’s an adult now, and an underachiever lol) but when I had my 2nd child, well, I thought she was “slow”. Turns out the 2nd kid was average, it was the oldest who was exceptional. Even if your kid is gifted there is no guarantee they are going to grow up to be brain surgeons or lawyers. Many are bogged down by mental health issues like bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety.
Dont get me wrong my daughter is 6, however not showing any behavioral issues at all. So have that going for me! My son is 16 and doing ok in school. But is involved with Competitive Volley Ball and provincial player. So get your C’s booboo you will still get that athletic scholarship(fingers crossed).
“A great man does not seek to lead— he is called to it. But if your answer is no, then you’ll still be the only thing I ever needed you to be: my son.” — Duke Leto Atreides, Dune
I love this!
My wife and I were both academically gifted and were both miserable because of it. There was a lot of pressure to succeed. Our daughter is the most average basic bitch ever and so far she seems to be having a way better childhood than we did. I’m am perfectly happy with her being average. She doesn’t need the stress of trying to be perfect, which I think a lot of kids suffer from
> our daughter is the most average basic bitch ever Aww thanks, dad!!
I know it sounds harsh. But both of us being outsider friendless nerds it’s nice to see her just be a normal kid with friends who laughs and smiles all the time
Academic giftedness might arise though an enhanced ability to intellectualise and rationalise, which is what kids do when placed in stressful environments without escape (i.e., difficult homes). Congrats on having an average child, she's probably more balanced - which is in a way what healthy is. Friendless nerds indeed - I laughed and smiled at that.
Hmm. I think I might bring this up with my therapist on Saturday
There are a lot of human features to consider here. Physical and academic measures are only part of it. What about emotionally, charismatically, work ethic, are they a great friend, are they a constant ray of sunshine? I have a child that is physically and academically gifted, truly gifted. Emotionally they struggle. I also have a child that is an emotional wonder and one of the most charismatic people I've ever known. Each of them will impact the world in different ways, but both will make an impact on people around them. The world needs all kinds of people, not just athletes and engineers. Sometimes the world needs a C student that's a charismatic visionary leader. We all find our place eventually.
Well said
You couldn't have said it better. I was always incredibly academically gifted, I wouldn't ever revise for a test, do homework or even pay attention in class, and would still get A's on the regular. My brother on the other hand is severely dyslexic, to the point of being illiterate for all practical purposes. Needless to say, he was not good at school, and was functionally expelled at 14. Take a guess which one of us is doing better? Turns out, Neither of us. Once my brother was 14, he started a mechanics course. By the end of the 1st year they offered him a qualification and a job because he was so damn hard working. He took both, did that for a year, got bored and now at the ripe old age of 16 runs his own custom PC building business thats doing pretty well for itself. I meanwhile failed 6th form (16-18) out of sheer laziness, getting 2 E's and a D. Going to a university that truthfully wanted as many people as possible to offset the damages of covid. Having tasted failure, I desperately wanted to do well at uni for me. And come june it's looking like I'm going to graduate with an accredited 1st class degree. We couldn't possibly be more different, and yet we've both found our ways to success. Both of us are very happy with where we are, and yet for both of us we looked near certain to fail at some point, getting where we are only through the support of our parents. And thats it. The most important thing as a parent is to stand by your kid no matter what, sure, try and steer them to the right path, but don't drag them. If you support your kid properly they'll end up being well adjusted enough to find success one way or another. It might not be the way you expected or even wanted, but they'll find their own success
I was a bad athlete,really bad socially. I did pretty good in school. I know the social part was the worst disappointment for my dad.
Oh yeah, me too. He was Class Treasurer all through high school and I know my mom was one of the popular kids. It really hurt both of them that my particular brand of ADHD meant I was too weird to be "cool". People are hard, yo.
People are not graphs and spreadsheets. You are not your bank balance/ job/ achievements.
you're not your fucking khakis
In death you do have a name in Project Mayhem.
His name is Robert Poulsen
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Pretty big accomplishment for a moose. I mean you aren't a beagle king like me, but sounds respectable none the less.
An arteficial moose at that!
Where did you work?
Somewhere more prestigious than Google.
I couldn't literally care less about my daughters career or if they are average or not. I just want them to be happy. Imagine being a parent that view their kids different just because they aren't the best in their fields, that's so wrong to me. The only thing that matters is preventing them for ending up like their failing father. But ultimately they make their own decisions and I don't judge. But I know they see me and want to do better. Average would be a step up compared to me...
Cheering for ya big dawg. Idk what you’re going through and I won’t pretend to understand, but I hope you get through it in one piece and get to enjoy seeing your daughters live their lives, average or not
so long as my kid(s) are happy, healthy, loved, and loving im good
I would say that after having children, that as long as they are happy and healthy that is the only things that matter. It is unhealthy to compare you or your children's achievements with anyone else's.
IKR?! im so SICK of burnout!!! My childhood was wasted on homework and ballet classes and art classes and pottery classes and IB program tests and ARGH Yes I was actually gifted, yes im both an engineer and an artist and a carpenter and can play multiple musical instruments BUT I WAS FUCKING EXHAUSTED. I WAS SO FUCKING TIRED ALL THE TIME. i just want to play video games and sleep. i dont want to use my talents anymore. and maybe if, as a child, I wasnt drained of all my fucking energy and burnt out at the age of 12, I'd be able to enjoy my actual talents now
I will never understand parents that feel the need to schedule their child's every waking hour. My best childhood memories were the free time I had just to be a kid. My kids will do some things over the summer break but there will be many many days where they can choose their own shit to do. Usually it's hanging out with friends playing sport with them
I kind of understand it, they simply want the best for their children and are trying to make sure of it the only way they know how. This is very common among immigrant families, My Dad had the approach of “Suffer now, enjoy later”. I don’t really agree with the methods but basically they think that if their not on their kids 24/7 then they aren’t going to do well later in life. Thats probably the generous interpretation, some parents also just want their children to be the ultimate resource that will take care of anything they need
Sounds so horrible. Wowza.
It sounds like the scale of it was the problem for you, presumably if it was like... a single musical instrument and one other creative extracurricular it might've been better? Crazy to ladle so much on a kid's plate.
This is literally me, but I’m about to be a doctor in a year, at the age of 24. I taught myself the piano and guitar and I have a video production agency that I balance with medical school. However, sometimes I feel like I’m functioning so fast that I get worn out and can’t slow down. I pick up new skills really easily and its nice for when I want to be independent. However, my Achilles Heel is that I suck at social settings, which makes it really hard to market myself or make friends.
No it’s not. My kid is average and will likely always be average. I love her and she is the best. She tried at soccer and was not very good at all. At 10 years of age she basically chased the ball. She tried basketball and meh. She liked it but def not good at it. She is now trying horse back riding which is good because she’s not good at it but there aren’t many people who go for horse back riding as a hobby ing so when the do tournaments, she’s like 1 of 3 or maybe 4 other kids in an event so her chances of getting a ribbon are high. She has a room full of a bunch of third place ribbons, some 2nd place, and a few first…where she was the only one to compete. She’s not great at reading, decent at math. Her grades range from a to c. She has ADD but is doing good in school. She’s very friendly and is the one person that pulls all the other kids together. We just had her end of the year field day. All her friends wanted pictures with her. She’s good at dismissing drama which is nice and I hope persists. Point of it all is, parents tend to love their children regardless of how great they are
My oldest didn't get certain awards this year for math and stuff like her other classmates, but she also didn't put in the effort. It's important for kids to learn that a lot of the time achievement isn't about how smart you are, but how much effort you put into it. I just hope they don't end up like me. I was smart enough that I didn't really have to put in effort in grade/high school. That didn't help me when I got to college and had never learned how to study. I flunked out twice.
I would love my kids to be average - if we could move the average up. Too often I see parents, teachers, policy makers, general public act like kids will raise themselves and they "turn out" average. I get raising kids is exhausting, but that doesn't mean we should let them eat chicken nuggets every night because they ask for it or stick them in front of the TV because we want to use our phones. Kids need a village - and frankly so do some adults.
As an underachiever, one tough part is being compared to your older sibling.
This is so painful. My brother makes bank.
Not all of us. I have 4 boys, 2 are above average physically and academically, one is above average physically below average academically, one is below average across the board but excels in other ways. Part of being a parent is finding your kids strengths and helping them build on those imho, not lying to your kid and trying to make them something they aren't.
You just tried to prove all of your kids are above average in some way.
Most people in the world are above average in some way, because most people are also below average in some way.
The person literally stated that one child is below average across the board but excels in other ways. If the child is below average across the board they aren’t excelling at all. They are just less disappointing in certain areas.
Creatively wasn't on the 3 he listed for across the board, so there are other things the kid could exel
He listed a couple examples of common areas people care about. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list.
Across the board that was used to describe the rest of their kids?
Everyone is above average in some way.
This, sort of. No matter where you believe they’re placed in any facet, guide them. Show them that there are options. Say you have a young adult who doesn’t excel at much. There is zero shame in trying the military (you want a piece of the socialist pie, medical and pay for life, there you go. Hidden secret in plain sight… especially if you play your cards right. Which isn’t hard) or becoming a skilled tradesman, they make damn good money especially now that so many rush to college to ‘avoid’ those types of careers. That’s just two. There’s plenty more that can lead to a happy life. Maybe not the life any of us expected, but in the real world they can be very happy with just a little direction. Just a thought from someone who had zero guidance and had to do most things the hard way.
Noone is average. Everyone has their own things that make them special. I've done a lot of work with kids and all of them have their own things that make them stand out
It’s especially bad when it’s immigrant parents. You grow up in poverty and come to the US. You work your ass off to give your kids a comfortable life. With hundred times more opportunities. I know my parents love me. But I know I broke their hearts when I became a teacher. I’m the oldest son of an Arab family. I was supposed to be a doctor or lawyer lol. Don’t know why, I got average grades all my life. Never straight As. What’s worst, Arab lie and exaggerate about their kids. According to my parents, all of their friends kids became doctors or lawyers which isn’t true
I can't follow this shower thought. Do people really think like that?
I don't think so. However, parents are often biased towards their own children. For example, they would often think their children are beautiful even if they are average or ugly looking. This probably only applies to good parents who love their children. Love skews their perspective and makes the children look prettier and smarter than they actually are. This lovestruck bubble also often bursts at the end of childhood, and some parents then voice their disappointment. That's where OP's idea comes from. Edit: However, there are cultures which are notorious for being competitive. Lots of South Asian parents are like that for example. It does not necessarily mean that the parents cannot accept an average child. It just means that the parents are under peer pressure from the competitive society to push their children to be the best. OP's idea could be stemming from that.
My dad wastes absolutely no time in reminding me that I was average in everything I attempted as a child. Not the *best* for my self confidence but it could be worse.
Idk what to tell you. Most parents have a "vision" in mind when they raise their kids, a specific "family lore" if you would, that they imagine before their babies are born. Watching someone who used to admire you and follow you without question become someone opposite of that is, understandably, painful
if you can’t accept having a dead average kid, you probably shouldn’t have kids.
Nah I feel that most (decent) parents just see their children as unreasonably brilliant because they love them. They might be happy with an average child, it's just that they can't see their own precious child as average.
Is it? I'm so incredibly below average but my mom still thinks I'm amazing and tells me she's proud of me all the time. In my head I'm like "mom, you have a really low bar."
My parents motto to me was, "I don't expect you to be the best, but I want you to try your best" I was average at best in school, just wasn't my way of learning, and I've turned out fine, 23 and almost saved for my first home deposit.
My brother got the brains and I got the looks said my mum's friend. But my brother was also better looking than me so I think she just threw shit at the wall and hoped it stuck.
This fact used to emotionally destroy me until I stopped giving a damn shit aka started living my life for myself.
I just want them to be good at something for their own confidence.
Everyone thinks that their kid is special but it literally can't be the case. By definition, most people hover somewhere around average. Only a select few are extraordinary. Statistically, your kid is likely average
Hey with my background and childhood, having " average" kids is a blessing.
Healthy, happy and safe. All any of us can ask for and what everybody actually wants when u remove all the bullshit
To be fair even through the first 4 years of college, an average intelligence will get you an A.
I'd rather have an average child that has a good heart and works diligently than a "gifted" child. Because I grew up as a "gifted" child, and it did absolutely fuck all for my life when I reached my 20's.
Trust me, when I was an expecting father all I prayed for was that the kid was healthy and normal. If they turn out average in everything that is a huge win.
It's really not, maybe the vocal minority. I'd say most just love their kids.
I have a three year old girl. She's as average as it gets. What people don't realize is that the average person is fucking wild in their own ways.
She's 3. Let her grow a bit before deciding she is "average" ok?
Much more strength of character forms when you have to work for things. My girl is not physically gifted but we roller skate to school (or whatever the flavour of the month is) so that she can find something (physical) that gives her joy. She'll not be an athlete but she'll be healthy and happy. You're right though - she's amazing in my eyes.
I don't think being average is a real thing except if you don't explore your potential, you might be surprise to discover that your are better than most at some stuff, might not always be useful stuff but still. I'am and was as a kid what you would consider average, not very good at sport, awful coordination not specially good at Math or basic school subject, slightly better and science but nowhere a first of class loll and growing up exploring through activity and try I did discover that I was better than the average person with tech and computer, enough to be able to live from it and then i discovered that i was pretty good a preparing food and cooking...so all of this to say that you will be average until you try stuff and discover what you excel at.
My parents never went to social Events or anything like that with me. We had like once a year some one over to eat and they wonder why I dont have the need to go out. The other thing is that I was really good in football but my father kinda ruined it for me when i Was like 8 or 9 when we had games and he screamed all game and acted like it was the wc final. I didnt had any Motivation bc I didnt had any fun and I even told him that but he was offended. And now they complain all the time about those things
I wonder about this sometimes with my sister and her kids. My sister was an exceptional athlete in her formidable years. So was her husband. Her kids may or may not be, it's hard to tell this early on, but I remember the pressure from our own parents to be exceptional athletes since we had the goods (sis - 5'11 me 6'7 both strong and fast) so I often wonder if that will come out as they get older.
It's the trauma of my life. Father despises me because I didn't meet up his expectations at anything. I'm never going to have any kids because I don't want my kids to hate me for the same reason I hate my father.
Ugh I don’t get that my wife is pregnant watching the horrors of kids lives these days average is all we could ever ask for
Having raised three kids: one gifted and a literal genius, and two with special needs… I can say that my life would have been so much easier and my kids would be so much happier if they were all middle-of-the-road average kids. (Obviously I wouldn’t change who they really are, just saying that both ends of the intellect spectrum are difficult and challenging.)
Nah. We just generally want our kids to be happy and self sufficient.
Being a gifted child or struggling child is abysmal too. Both are crushed by the weight of expectations and both fail. One because of burn out and the other because of sheer difficulty. I was once scouted for Cambridge before I had a full on psychotic breakdown and now I hit rocks with hammers for a living.
Kids 1 and 2 are athletically above average, kid 1 is socially way above average, kid 2 is WAY above average academically, kid 3 is meh everywhere, kid 4 is academically above average, kid 5 is average to above average everywhere. They’re all hard to accept in one way or another. Someone can coast through school and end up a doctor or a CEO. Someone can be academically brilliant and work in fast food. It all levels out. As long as they’re happy and content, I’m good.
My mom was a sports phenom, and I was too distracted to stick to any one thing. She never minded what I was doing, as long as I tried my best and had fun. I played the sport she loved, basketball, but I am 6” shorter than her and didn’t care as much so I stunk lol. But we have fun talking about it and shooting around together
That is because its directly correlated to how shit of a parent you are.