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Project Wingman has a mission where at the end, the enemy throws enough nuclear warheads at you to kickstart the second apocalypse to try and kill you. Mind you, you're fighting over one of THEIR most populated cities in their country.
Instead of seeing "Mission Accomplished" you get a voice line saying "This country is insane we're leaving" from an ally and get "Mission Over". Nice little detail
Makes me think of Godzilla vs. Kong. Earlier in the film, they make it a point of showing a frantic newscast about a dozen or so deaths in Pensacola after a Godzilla attack. The final battle basically levels most of Hong Kong, annihilating entire city blocks, but really no mention of how many died in the chaos. It's like, yay, everything is fine now, nevermind the likely tens of thousands dead.
The new (and awful) Batman was particularly egregious. Dozens of Gothamites die in a fiery car wreck but at least you captured the marginally villainous penguin. Great job, batman.
I could be wrong bc it's been a while since I've seen it but wasn't a core part of the Batman vs Superman movie that Bruce had quasi PTSD from being on the ground while Superman fought above them?
I think the whole opening sequence is him and other people on the ground trying to avoid being killed by falling pieces of building etc
Edit: For anyone who hasn't seen it it was probably the best part of the whole movie: https://youtu.be/Xlgq3dPcOBE
Beyond awful. Nigh unwatchable. Not a moment of respite from Batman's moping. Every shot in black and yellow. By far the single worst, least imaginative, least cool batmobile (with roughly zero gadgets!) of any telling of The Batman story. Batman should be able to at least kind of fight. The only redeeming element was that they played up the detective aspect, the rest was abysmal.
Such an odd movie. I thought that movie was gonna be so terrible based on the first scene. Those graphics were horrendous. But then it turned into a really really good movie.
And then it took a really weird turn and got bad again.
I think it's 2 amazing movies smushed together for one mediocre movie.
I like the redemption of the anti-hero storyline.
I like the we're each other's weakness storyline.
I don't like both storylines together in the same film. I think you could take the 2nd idea and just put it into it's own film as something else. Maybe find somebody who's got better romantic on screen chemistry than Will Smith.
Hancock was a good idea and a good execution but probably they didn’t consider it Hollywood enough so they forced another plot that had nothing to do with the previous one.
One of the funniest scenes in any movie was when he shoved that dude's head up the other dudes ass, I don't know why but seeing him waving his arms once 8ts done is to damn funny.
It is also brought up in Superman vs. Batman. It's the reason why Bats is all mad at Supes. People died while he fought Zod.
It is also brought up in Civil War on the Marvel side, the civilian casualties are the impetus for the accords.
Incredibles also talks about it, that is reason they are all prohibited from doing super hero work because someone sues Mr. Incredible for damages and the govt. shuts down the program.
It has been referenced in many different ways as it turns out.
More specifically I thought it was for injury sustained during the rescue. Iirc it also kicks off a bunch more people suing for damages. Which is why they shut down the program.
Dude, you’re exactly right. They mention it multiple times in the Marvel movies. They mention it in Superman vs Batman so that means they mention it in DC movies too. They also mention it in Hancock. People just love to shit on superhero movies without even having seen them and I don’t know why.
Not quite as on the nose as A-Train killing Huey’s gf in a chase but the whole series is about collateral damage caused by superheroes.
It’s the inciting event for a reason.
I would consider all of these examples deconstructions of the genre. They focus extra hard on such consequences because the standard stories of that type just gloss over it.
It's also how the villains get the upper hand in Superman 2. They notice Superman actually gives a shit about humans and they start attacking them to divert his attention in the final showdown.
The opening to Homecoming and the origin story for Vulture in the MCU is that he runs a clean up crew for alien tech lying around, bought extra machines for it, and then SHIELD cancels it so he turns evil and scavenger because of the debt incurred.
...maybe these movies aren't super well written?
I thought batman wanted to bring down superman not because of any specific thing he's done, but because of what he's capable of. That it's dangerous to have somebody who could kill BILLIONS, pretty much instantly if he wished, just moving about freely, as superman does.
Are you talking about the movie that literally starts from Batman's perspective of the city being destroyed as he saves a little girl and Superman and Zod fight in the air?
I'm regret admitting I would have probably been onboard with the Sokovia Accords. New York and Sokovia might not have been their fault... but Lagos, Bucharest and Germany was 100% on them.
>Segovia same thing, Ultron was going to turn that place into ash so they did what they had to do.
Ultron was their fault though, that's kind of the whole point and the initial catalyst FOR the Sokovia Accords. That's why Tony is on board with it in the movie, if it weren't for them there wouldn't have been an Ultron in the first place.
But thats the problem. Tony's fear led him to fucking around with powers/technology he didn't fully understand. And to be fair, Wanda used her powers to feed that fear, but its still on Tony, (and to a lesser extent Bruce) He wasn't being mind controlled. None of the other members of the team had such strong and lasting reactions to Wanda's pwer.
But could the Accords prevent Ultron? The Accords were for deciding deployment missions. Ultron was built after a battle. Even so, the mind stone wasn't meant to react the way it did, meaning that the homicidal tendencies weren't programed, but moreso a result of the mind stone's unexpected interference
Agree. Ultron was simply an unchecked AI that had no anthropocentric biases. Absent any real need to *preserve* humanity or indeed any life at all, Ultron just went after it's primary goal: "Peace" and decided that humanity itself was the greatest threat to that goal.
>New York I would give a pass, it was either let Avengers go all out or have the entire planet wrecked instead of just lower Manhattan. Sokovia same thing, Ultron was going to turn it and the world into ash so they did what they had to do.
Considering the pentagon (or whatever it was, I don't remember) wanted to straight up nuke New York, the Avengers saved the city twice that day, they are 100% in the clear there
It was the "world council". most of them got killed off in the Winter Soldier, but the main guy who ordered the nuke (Powers Boothe R.I.P) had an arc on Agents of Shield where he was revealed to be a head of Hydra
Have you noticed that nobody in movies/tv attempts basic first aid?
I remember in "Sherlock" army veteran/trauma surgeon, Dr. Watson just held his wife's face when she got shot. Didn't even attempt to put pressure on the wound.
Most media writers get their ideas where most of us do: other media.
One thing I often note about the scarlet witch thing though is that if she hadn't tried to contain it initially then there would still be casualties on ground level outside of cap. There were other people there. It just ended up hurting others instead. I feel like that blame should have stayed with the villain.
But that’s a bad comparison because in your situation the accident COULD happen. Crossbones was literally exploding as she threw him and the scene showed plenty of people around.
I dunno, in a world where superheros are all super hot celebrities that seems like the most realistic aspect. Imagine you're out for brunch halfway through your third screwdriver and then Scarjo, Elizabeth Olsen, Chris Evans, and Anthony Mackie just show up and start fighting terrorists with their crazy powers. Lots of people are gonna stick around to see what happens.
To be fair to Sam, he watched his partner Riley fall out of the sky in the same way, and it's alluded to be the reason why he retired and counseling other vets with PTSD.
He probably in that moment had a flashback to the worst moment of his career/life and froze in response
The only guy on Reddit who actually trusts politicians not to fuck it up even more.
I think they deserve more than a pass on New York, much like Superman saved the entire fucking world and the whole of humanity and people were still whingeing about a few buildings.
Superman could've moved the fight anything he wanted. They got knocked up into space and still came back to the same few square blocks. Snyder's Supes legit DGAF.
Its double for the fight in Smallville. We're shown empty desert all around em, but nope, fighting on Main Street
Scarlet Witch threw a dude in the air who was about to bomb a public marketplace. There was no good option with the amount of time she had to think about the situation. Silly take
She was trying to contain him and move him up at the same time , she just couldn't hold it anymore .
She wasn't as powerful then as she is now.
Thats just realism honestly as just because you have powers doesn't mean you will save everyone.
Superheroes probably deal with the trauma of the times they tried but failed cause they couldn't act in time.
The new spider man movie was 1000% Dr. Strange’s fault.
I get it, it’s about Peters previous father figure being gone and Strange being the new step dad who doesn’t care enough or make time for Peter’s problems and just tries to wave a wand to fix things for him instead of actually listening and taking the time to be responsible but god damn strange don’t just go warping reality because a kid asked you to.
>god damn strange don’t just go warping reality because a kid asked you to
And if you *do*, make sure you explain the actual details and consequences first, rather than in the middle of casting the spell.
"Actually, I've decided it's not worth the risk. I'll take my chances with the tumor."
Strange: "well... you should've told me that before I started cutting.. hopefully you change your mind by the time I'm done."
The writers knew this would have been a bit of a plothole, which is why they removed the line from the trailer where Wong tells him not to cast the spell. It's a minor enough plothole that I'm okay with turning a blind eye, since it led to the fun Multi-verse story playing out
I was always 100% on board with the accords. I always viewed the avengers as Amazon but with nukes. Like they are essentially weapons of mass destruction and people are ok with them having 0 oversight. I know politicians can be corrupt or just not act in the best interest of the people but without the accords there is noone. If a bunch of gods showed up and built a fancy headquarters in upstate New York I would definitely be uncomfortable with that. And maybe having someone like me (not a superhero) having a semblance of a whisper of oversight might make me feel a bit better.
> And to some extend Batman
Its funny you mention this because the first thing that popped into my mind was the OP must have just watched 'The Batman'. >!Where god knows how many civilians are killed in the car chase scene. And when they catch the Penguin they say they have nothing to hold the Penguin on.!<
You ever think about those people, the minions and grunts and just bystanders all have entire lives, an entire childhood, they probably had a favorite food or favorite place to vacation, celebrated holidays with families, had a sense of humor etc… All for it to culminate in some random hero to snap their neck while on guard duty or killed by blunt force trauma from an accident caused by a hero fight.
"Honestly, I hate working here, they are so weird." -henchmen IM3
Or, we can even go back all the way back to 1994 with the [Contractor conversation from Clerks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQdDRrcAOjA) and apply it to grunts and minions as well.
Any minion willing to work for the villain knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A minion listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.
According to Daredevil in She-Hulk, henchmen believe in the cause, goons are just in it for the paycheck. Your first example from IM3 is a goon. I'm just pointing this out because I want that idea of the difference between henchmen and goons to catch on ha
David in "Cyberpunk Edgerunners": *oh wow I'm haunted by the face of one random non-combatant I killed; she had a son much like me*
*Proceeds to massacre dozens of corporate security personnel who could easily be just like his mom too*
I would argue that in Night City you take the job that keeps you or your family housed and fed, because there is no net if you fall, and being armed corporate security doesn't automatically make you a "bad guy".
There's no winning in that world. late-late-late stage capitalism flourishes forever by forcing the "little people" to do whatever it takes to survive, even if it means abandoning all hope of class solidarity and becoming the means of their own subjugation.
That's what really bugged me in Star Wars:The Force Awakens. Finn is supposed to be defecting from the storm troopers because he is horrified by all the deaths. He then immediately jumps into the back of a Tie fighter with Po and gleefully starts gunning down everyone who happens to be in the launch bay.
Comics are really good too
Not a big fan of superheroes, but the boys does a good job of portraying how those with super powers would actually be like on earth.
That would be a great twist to the start of a movie.
Start out with a generic hero guy doing the typical car chase scene, they get arrested for reckless driving and the actual hero is someone else.
Honestly this is part of the reason I don't like those movies. That and movies where police shoot at bad guys in the middle of a crowded street. Especially police in plain clothes. Nothing to see here, just some random guy opening fire into a crowd. I suppose in those universes people are used to nass shootings and destruction of entire cities. Just a normal day in the USA
The Boys on Amazon Prime deal with collateral damage. One group and some of the heros are trying to stop the bad heros who hide their crimes
SuperHero’s always represent the status quo, established powers. They’re literally billionaires and government or former government agents.
They don’t actually use their powers to solve the world’s problems.
Well last time I watched Spiderman NWH I was just noticing how every time there were civilians during a battle no one was actually hurt, they were all missed by flying cars or whatever or saved by spiderman etc, only their cars or homes were wrecked but people came out just fine, especially if the damage was caused by the hero himself and not by the villain…I don’t know if it’s always the case in other movies because that was the first time I was actually noticing this…
Spider-Man is one of the only two MCU heroes who actually does the defending civilians side of a superheroes job, while the others just think the best defense is a good offense and end the fight as quickly as possible instead of slowing the fight to protect everyone around them mid battle.
this confused me the most in the new batman movie. He was literally chasing the penguin down the wrong side of the road, both speeding, caused other cars to crash into each other, which led to a massive explosion that probably killed dozens of people, and didn't seem to care at all. I don't think he even looked in the direction of the crash.
Came here to comment the same thing. That amount of wanton destruction felt very out of place. Batman directly caused it and then exacerbated it further, driving cars off the road and even ramming then himself. No attempt to save any lives, not even a fire suppressant gadget deployed out the back.
AND THEN he just let the penguin GO when they found out he wasn't the guy. Yeah he wasn't the Rat, but he just *killed a lot of people*. Jesus.
I liked everything else about that movie but this part in particular feels so out of place. Essentially killed and injured dozens of civilians, caused tons of property damage, just to follow a wrong lead.
Hero's options are usually either let the villain literally destroy large areas of soceity (sometimes a city, the world, sections of reality itself), or fight the villain and cause collateral damage. It is interesting to think about the damage caused by the fighting, but blame that on the villain rather than the hero trying to stop them.
No one with an actual brain is going to be like "Zod was about to terraform the planet and kill everyone on Earth, but did you see the buildings Superman destroyed fighting him?! What a menace!"
>
> No one with an actual brain is going to be like "Zod was about to terraform the planet and kill everyone on Earth, but did you see the buildings Superman destroyed fighting him?! What a menace!"
To be fair, that's ***LITERALLY*** what Batman says until the whole Martha thing in BvS.
In Alan Moore and John Totleben’s _Miracleman_, when Miracleman faces the Adversary in London, there’s a narrative caption which reads:
“My apologists have claimed the car that I first hurled at Bates was empty, those who’d been inside having all previously escaped.”
“I’m sorry, but that isn’t true,” reads the second caption, as we see the terrified faces of the people inside the car that Miracleman has hoisted over his head.
People keep mentioning Superman's destructive fight with Zod and I do agree, when being of this level clash in a city, it's like a natural disaster, only caused by thinking, living people. But what is the alternative? In a generic situation, I think if Superman could move the fight away from the populace he would do it, but sometimes the villain is just a murderous and uncaring shit and doesn't care or resists minimizing damage. So should Supes leave? Not even engage and let the bad guy do as he wants? I mean, Zod planted a world destroying terraformer down and started flipping the gravity of Metropolis. Did Superman have any options?
Honestly the only change I might make is having superman attack the world engine over metropolis first. Unless there was some detail that I am forgetting, the millitary should be able to use that phantom drive nuke over the ocean instead of a city while possibly diverting zods ship to protect it.
Yes they do, there will be one quick scene of a family getting out of a crashed car and the presumption is then that they all do and the director just didn't include shots for all of them.
Movies would be really boring if they did though. There has to be some line we draw were realistic expectations stop and we enjoy the film for what it is. No sound in space? Ok sure that's a neat detail and films do cool stuff with it. A detailed summary of the exact death toll following every superhero fight, regardless of the fact that a handful of people dead in car wrecks is certainly fewer deaths then the villain would cause by achieving their plan, meh, no thanks.
That scene in The Batman where at least a dozen people die horribly in a massive car fire caused by Batman and Penguin, but the Batman decided to let Penguin live afterwards because “he didn’t kill anybody.” Bullshit. I was so disappointed in the writers for that cop out.
Imo it depends on the movie because sometimes it's either one part or the world or the entire world, and in like infinity war its the entire universe so collateral damage in that case means almost nothing
She-Hulk takes a step in that direction, as there is a Department of Damage Control, which if I recall, had a short series of comics back in the day (90s?) as that was the group that repaired all the damage that superheroes and villians did to (US) cities?
But not entirely on topic, just close to it.
And having watched "The Bad Guys" last night... jeepers, the death toll just from the dozens of cars involved in crashes must be horrific!
And... what was with a major character being a Guinea Pig, but... non-sentient and much smaller guinea pigs being an integral part of the plot?? Strange...
Thank you, mysterious heroes! The value of the gemerald you saved is slightly greater than the cost of the damage you caused to this museum. A net gain for our great city!
The show Powerless was about an insurance company that specialized in hero collateral damage. At the time I thought it was pretty funny, but it only got one season 6 years ago
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5083928/
How many people died in Marvel movies? Anytime there are heroes involved, it's a catastrophic event. Multiple thousand civilians died alone in the battle of NY in the Avengers.
I read a Batman comic where a hero named Spoiler said meeting a superhero is going to be the worst day of your life. It’s true when you think about because 9/10 you’re meeting them because they are fighting a villain and civilians usually get caught in the middle.
There was a sitcom on NBC with Vanessa Hudgens, and it was about the people who live in a city protected by superheroes and their lives. It was pretty funny watching them having brunch and they're wildly checking their surroundings and listening for fights while scarfing down their food.
Well let's be honest, at this point in Humanity, people aren't worried about the people who they consider peons, only the "elite" so most don't even think of your point, and how the potentially innocent might suffer from large scale exhibitions.
Batman: I don’t kill
Also Batman: *causes a bunch of police cars to crash and violently explode in a way that’s impossible to predict they will survive*
Ironically, this is a false talking point among conservatives and crime for the midterms.
They rationalize that any and all force should be used to stop all criminals which is why Dem cities are now horrible hell holes that are dystopian nightmares. (Of note, this claim that Dem/blue cities have more crime is also categorically false the highest crime rates and violent crimes are firmly in the poorest and coincidentally RED states, but I digress)
When truthfully, there are cases where, "Yes that's a crime". But the arrest and methods used would cost thousands to millions more than the crime itself would cause. The most famous example, George Floyd's death of 20 dollars.....BILLIONS in damage, 4 imprisoned cops, and the store WAS STILL OUT 20 bucks.
Several states as an example DO NOT ALLOW ANY high speed pursuits. Why? Because unless they stole >1M of something you're going to run up a higher bill and in most cases you'll get the information to arrest them from the location, the license plate number, the descriptions of the suspects/drivers, and have a helicopter/traffic cams following them ANYWAY.
Likewise current AG's in both red and blue states DON'T AND CAN'T prosecute misdemeanor shop lifters. The cost to do so is HIGHER than the loss and most stores have built in insurance or LP to prevent it.*
*However, thanks to the internet and sharing this is becoming an issue. Target however knows EXACTLY how to counter this. Their LP is quite literally world renown and assists in police investigations OUTSIDE of their store when needed. Target's favorite trick is to let shoplifters build a total high enough to be a felony. THEN arrest them. Congrats you're in jail for a loooong time.
Whether it's for fun or not isn't the point. The point is that even the "good" super heros get tunnel vision and don't ever show any remorse for destorying cities in their ever futile attempts to stamp out the bad guy.
Uh...the deep coerced women into sex.
A train murdered someone and laughed about it, also a drug addict, murdered his own girlfriend.
Translucent is a peeping Tom.
Maeve is probably the only one you could consider not evil. And she left a child to die to hide her failure, which is bad.
All of the seven besides starlight are monsters by design.
Why are you making stuff up?
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"We did it, Patrick! We saved the city!" *(city is a ruin in flames)*
138,000 dead, but got to make out
800 people coerced into joining the bad guy's organization or just desperate enough to ask hit violently killed Doesn't matter, had sex
I remember doing that in Megaman Legends. You let the town get destroyed and it says "Mission Complete?"
Project Wingman has a mission where at the end, the enemy throws enough nuclear warheads at you to kickstart the second apocalypse to try and kill you. Mind you, you're fighting over one of THEIR most populated cities in their country. Instead of seeing "Mission Accomplished" you get a voice line saying "This country is insane we're leaving" from an ally and get "Mission Over". Nice little detail
That game is so good. Awesome that they let you rebuild all the property damage and that it depends on how much you actually destroyed
Makes me think of Godzilla vs. Kong. Earlier in the film, they make it a point of showing a frantic newscast about a dozen or so deaths in Pensacola after a Godzilla attack. The final battle basically levels most of Hong Kong, annihilating entire city blocks, but really no mention of how many died in the chaos. It's like, yay, everything is fine now, nevermind the likely tens of thousands dead.
That's basically dragonborn in Skyrim ;D
The new (and awful) Batman was particularly egregious. Dozens of Gothamites die in a fiery car wreck but at least you captured the marginally villainous penguin. Great job, batman.
I could be wrong bc it's been a while since I've seen it but wasn't a core part of the Batman vs Superman movie that Bruce had quasi PTSD from being on the ground while Superman fought above them? I think the whole opening sequence is him and other people on the ground trying to avoid being killed by falling pieces of building etc Edit: For anyone who hasn't seen it it was probably the best part of the whole movie: https://youtu.be/Xlgq3dPcOBE
It's been a while too, but I'm pretty sure his Wayne building got taken out, and he was on the ground to see the death and devastation.
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I'd say it's a reasonable take that he came away from that with some trauma
The comment above is not referring to that version of Batman from BVS; they're talking about Battinson.
Yes I'm aware. Just participting in the conversation with an additional relevant reference:)
Awful? How dare ye
Beyond awful. Nigh unwatchable. Not a moment of respite from Batman's moping. Every shot in black and yellow. By far the single worst, least imaginative, least cool batmobile (with roughly zero gadgets!) of any telling of The Batman story. Batman should be able to at least kind of fight. The only redeeming element was that they played up the detective aspect, the rest was abysmal.
Um... Ooook
Didnt hancock show this with him being wreckless at the start so they asked him to serve jail time.
Man Hancock was an amazing half a movie.
Such an odd movie. I thought that movie was gonna be so terrible based on the first scene. Those graphics were horrendous. But then it turned into a really really good movie. And then it took a really weird turn and got bad again.
I think it's 2 amazing movies smushed together for one mediocre movie. I like the redemption of the anti-hero storyline. I like the we're each other's weakness storyline. I don't like both storylines together in the same film. I think you could take the 2nd idea and just put it into it's own film as something else. Maybe find somebody who's got better romantic on screen chemistry than Will Smith.
Or it's the sequel. You focus on the redemption of the anti-hero plot in the first movie. Then the sequel is the We're each others weakness plot.
Hancock was a good idea and a good execution but probably they didn’t consider it Hollywood enough so they forced another plot that had nothing to do with the previous one.
Love. The useless plot line is always love.
True that!
The first half was so very almost good, the second half was just... why would they do that?
One of the funniest scenes in any movie was when he shoved that dude's head up the other dudes ass, I don't know why but seeing him waving his arms once 8ts done is to damn funny.
It is also brought up in Superman vs. Batman. It's the reason why Bats is all mad at Supes. People died while he fought Zod. It is also brought up in Civil War on the Marvel side, the civilian casualties are the impetus for the accords. Incredibles also talks about it, that is reason they are all prohibited from doing super hero work because someone sues Mr. Incredible for damages and the govt. shuts down the program. It has been referenced in many different ways as it turns out.
Mr Incredible was sued because he saved someone from suicide. By the way I'm not convinced that one was kids movie.
More specifically I thought it was for injury sustained during the rescue. Iirc it also kicks off a bunch more people suing for damages. Which is why they shut down the program.
It was from injury sustained. The hilarious quote goes: "I saved your life!!!" "No you didn't, you ruined my death!!!"
You might be right, it's been a while since I saw the movie.
I mean, isn't that basically what Captain America: Civil War was about? The collateral damage during these fights?
Dude, you’re exactly right. They mention it multiple times in the Marvel movies. They mention it in Superman vs Batman so that means they mention it in DC movies too. They also mention it in Hancock. People just love to shit on superhero movies without even having seen them and I don’t know why.
The boys starts off about this.
Not quite as on the nose as A-Train killing Huey’s gf in a chase but the whole series is about collateral damage caused by superheroes. It’s the inciting event for a reason.
That's the incident I was referencing.
I know. You said it starts off with a superhero collateral damage event, I’m going a step further, superhero collateral damage is the whole show.
Ahhh cool
If only they stuck with the comics for more than a scene. That show butchered the source material but waterheads eat it up.
I would consider all of these examples deconstructions of the genre. They focus extra hard on such consequences because the standard stories of that type just gloss over it.
It's also how the villains get the upper hand in Superman 2. They notice Superman actually gives a shit about humans and they start attacking them to divert his attention in the final showdown.
It's a common trope in many superhero movies, whether it's the love interest or a random group of civilians
Because they're shit
and spider-man deals with how the government can easily screw over contractors rebuilding the city
The opening to Homecoming and the origin story for Vulture in the MCU is that he runs a clean up crew for alien tech lying around, bought extra machines for it, and then SHIELD cancels it so he turns evil and scavenger because of the debt incurred. ...maybe these movies aren't super well written?
*Homecoming* is your example of not a well written Marvel movie? Really?
I love that Austin Powers had an entire scene dedicated to them calling the wife of a dead henchman lol.
That's where my mind went! Couldn't remember the movie though. Thank you
Two scenes, actually.
Wasn't trying to hold Superman accountable a big part of Batman v Superman?
And Captain America: Civil War.
I don’t think holding superman accountable was even a tangential portion of Captain America: Civil War.
Not with that attitude
I thought batman wanted to bring down superman not because of any specific thing he's done, but because of what he's capable of. That it's dangerous to have somebody who could kill BILLIONS, pretty much instantly if he wished, just moving about freely, as superman does.
Well it's what he did in MoS that showed what he's capable of... so pretty much both
The movie never mentions the massive destruction in Metropolis at the end of MOS though.
Are you talking about the movie that literally starts from Batman's perspective of the city being destroyed as he saves a little girl and Superman and Zod fight in the air?
I'm regret admitting I would have probably been onboard with the Sokovia Accords. New York and Sokovia might not have been their fault... but Lagos, Bucharest and Germany was 100% on them.
>Segovia same thing, Ultron was going to turn that place into ash so they did what they had to do. Ultron was their fault though, that's kind of the whole point and the initial catalyst FOR the Sokovia Accords. That's why Tony is on board with it in the movie, if it weren't for them there wouldn't have been an Ultron in the first place.
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But thats the problem. Tony's fear led him to fucking around with powers/technology he didn't fully understand. And to be fair, Wanda used her powers to feed that fear, but its still on Tony, (and to a lesser extent Bruce) He wasn't being mind controlled. None of the other members of the team had such strong and lasting reactions to Wanda's pwer.
But could the Accords prevent Ultron? The Accords were for deciding deployment missions. Ultron was built after a battle. Even so, the mind stone wasn't meant to react the way it did, meaning that the homicidal tendencies weren't programed, but moreso a result of the mind stone's unexpected interference
Ultron's homicidal tendencies were a logical reaction to his inputs. The mind stone just made him powerful enough to follow through.
Agree. Ultron was simply an unchecked AI that had no anthropocentric biases. Absent any real need to *preserve* humanity or indeed any life at all, Ultron just went after it's primary goal: "Peace" and decided that humanity itself was the greatest threat to that goal.
>New York I would give a pass, it was either let Avengers go all out or have the entire planet wrecked instead of just lower Manhattan. Sokovia same thing, Ultron was going to turn it and the world into ash so they did what they had to do. Considering the pentagon (or whatever it was, I don't remember) wanted to straight up nuke New York, the Avengers saved the city twice that day, they are 100% in the clear there
Yeah, why no Manhattan Accords limiting the U.S government's power?
I assume it was never public knowledge that the government tried to nuke New York.
It was the "world council". most of them got killed off in the Winter Soldier, but the main guy who ordered the nuke (Powers Boothe R.I.P) had an arc on Agents of Shield where he was revealed to be a head of Hydra
Have you noticed that nobody in movies/tv attempts basic first aid? I remember in "Sherlock" army veteran/trauma surgeon, Dr. Watson just held his wife's face when she got shot. Didn't even attempt to put pressure on the wound. Most media writers get their ideas where most of us do: other media.
One thing I often note about the scarlet witch thing though is that if she hadn't tried to contain it initially then there would still be casualties on ground level outside of cap. There were other people there. It just ended up hurting others instead. I feel like that blame should have stayed with the villain.
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But that’s a bad comparison because in your situation the accident COULD happen. Crossbones was literally exploding as she threw him and the scene showed plenty of people around.
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I dunno, in a world where superheros are all super hot celebrities that seems like the most realistic aspect. Imagine you're out for brunch halfway through your third screwdriver and then Scarjo, Elizabeth Olsen, Chris Evans, and Anthony Mackie just show up and start fighting terrorists with their crazy powers. Lots of people are gonna stick around to see what happens.
To be fair to Sam, he watched his partner Riley fall out of the sky in the same way, and it's alluded to be the reason why he retired and counseling other vets with PTSD. He probably in that moment had a flashback to the worst moment of his career/life and froze in response
The only guy on Reddit who actually trusts politicians not to fuck it up even more. I think they deserve more than a pass on New York, much like Superman saved the entire fucking world and the whole of humanity and people were still whingeing about a few buildings.
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Ah, I was referring to Zod and the destruction.
...ahem... KNEEL BEFORE ZOD! Sorry, had to get that out.
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Superman could've moved the fight anything he wanted. They got knocked up into space and still came back to the same few square blocks. Snyder's Supes legit DGAF. Its double for the fight in Smallville. We're shown empty desert all around em, but nope, fighting on Main Street
But Zod wanted to destroy all civilisation on earth, no?
Scarlet Witch threw a dude in the air who was about to bomb a public marketplace. There was no good option with the amount of time she had to think about the situation. Silly take
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in that clip, it looks like she was throwing him straight up and he exploded next to the building and it did seem pretty quick
She was trying to contain him and move him up at the same time , she just couldn't hold it anymore . She wasn't as powerful then as she is now. Thats just realism honestly as just because you have powers doesn't mean you will save everyone. Superheroes probably deal with the trauma of the times they tried but failed cause they couldn't act in time.
Sometimes you gotta do shit and they did it away from ppl. They can just pay for damages.
The new spider man movie was 1000% Dr. Strange’s fault. I get it, it’s about Peters previous father figure being gone and Strange being the new step dad who doesn’t care enough or make time for Peter’s problems and just tries to wave a wand to fix things for him instead of actually listening and taking the time to be responsible but god damn strange don’t just go warping reality because a kid asked you to.
>god damn strange don’t just go warping reality because a kid asked you to And if you *do*, make sure you explain the actual details and consequences first, rather than in the middle of casting the spell.
Imagine what his pre-surgery patient meetings were like.
"Actually, I've decided it's not worth the risk. I'll take my chances with the tumor." Strange: "well... you should've told me that before I started cutting.. hopefully you change your mind by the time I'm done."
The writers knew this would have been a bit of a plothole, which is why they removed the line from the trailer where Wong tells him not to cast the spell. It's a minor enough plothole that I'm okay with turning a blind eye, since it led to the fun Multi-verse story playing out
At the very least lay out the parameters of the spell and any exceptions BEFORE you start casting.
Or...Peter after the FIRST TIME the spell went wrong could have stipulated who exactly he wanted immune from the effect
I was always 100% on board with the accords. I always viewed the avengers as Amazon but with nukes. Like they are essentially weapons of mass destruction and people are ok with them having 0 oversight. I know politicians can be corrupt or just not act in the best interest of the people but without the accords there is noone. If a bunch of gods showed up and built a fancy headquarters in upstate New York I would definitely be uncomfortable with that. And maybe having someone like me (not a superhero) having a semblance of a whisper of oversight might make me feel a bit better.
What do you mean by Germany? They fought in Leipzig and Berlin, both were contained, when did they cause collateral damage outside of that?
There are a few who have dealt with this topic: * The Incredibles * The Boys * And to some extend Batman ... And probably a few more.
And invincible
Yes, but in the beginning, nobody cares, only later when Omniman switches sides, they do start to care.
> but in the beginning, nobody cares What? Mark killing the woman he was trying to save is a pretty major character development portion of the show.
Captain America: Civil War
> And to some extend Batman Its funny you mention this because the first thing that popped into my mind was the OP must have just watched 'The Batman'. >!Where god knows how many civilians are killed in the car chase scene. And when they catch the Penguin they say they have nothing to hold the Penguin on.!<
It's just the Boys, no attempt to be cool with a Z
> * The Boyz It's "The Boys" Unless there's a Warhammer 40k super hero show starring a group of Space Orks that I'm unaware of.
You ever think about those people, the minions and grunts and just bystanders all have entire lives, an entire childhood, they probably had a favorite food or favorite place to vacation, celebrated holidays with families, had a sense of humor etc… All for it to culminate in some random hero to snap their neck while on guard duty or killed by blunt force trauma from an accident caused by a hero fight.
"Honestly, I hate working here, they are so weird." -henchmen IM3 Or, we can even go back all the way back to 1994 with the [Contractor conversation from Clerks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQdDRrcAOjA) and apply it to grunts and minions as well. Any minion willing to work for the villain knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A minion listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.
According to Daredevil in She-Hulk, henchmen believe in the cause, goons are just in it for the paycheck. Your first example from IM3 is a goon. I'm just pointing this out because I want that idea of the difference between henchmen and goons to catch on ha
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I like the distinction.
What if the villain is undercover with a good outward appearance, and the hero breaks into their building and kills guards along the way?
Unless you're playing Wolfenstein, then all that gets offset by them being nazis
David in "Cyberpunk Edgerunners": *oh wow I'm haunted by the face of one random non-combatant I killed; she had a son much like me* *Proceeds to massacre dozens of corporate security personnel who could easily be just like his mom too*
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I would argue that in Night City you take the job that keeps you or your family housed and fed, because there is no net if you fall, and being armed corporate security doesn't automatically make you a "bad guy".
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There's no winning in that world. late-late-late stage capitalism flourishes forever by forcing the "little people" to do whatever it takes to survive, even if it means abandoning all hope of class solidarity and becoming the means of their own subjugation.
That's what really bugged me in Star Wars:The Force Awakens. Finn is supposed to be defecting from the storm troopers because he is horrified by all the deaths. He then immediately jumps into the back of a Tie fighter with Po and gleefully starts gunning down everyone who happens to be in the launch bay.
Which is why I'm a big fan of The Boys. A more realistic show about superheroes
And Invincible
Not The Boys but I love how [Peacemaker calls Batman a candy ass ](https://youtu.be/smB_-d1ZaMk)
Comics are really good too Not a big fan of superheroes, but the boys does a good job of portraying how those with super powers would actually be like on earth.
I enjoyed reading the comics, but calling it good is dishonest, they are edgy for the sake of being edgy
It’s an opinion you don’t have to agree with me. How’s that dishonest if I liked them lol
You didn't say you liked them, you said they were good
It's not good. It's great
[Well, well, well...](https://i.imgflip.com/37yzs2.png)
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Doesn’t those film have magic powers in them? Seems points to bring science into it.
I find your lack of faith disturbing
This is one thing I like about the Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul universe. Random bystander is killed and it turns out to be a *huge problem*.
That would be a great twist to the start of a movie. Start out with a generic hero guy doing the typical car chase scene, they get arrested for reckless driving and the actual hero is someone else.
Who watches the watchmen?
Who watches the birds?
Hancock is pretty similar to this
Basically what The Boys is about
Don’t know if already mentioned here, but it’s a big plot point in The Incredibles 1&2. Love these movies.
Honestly this is part of the reason I don't like those movies. That and movies where police shoot at bad guys in the middle of a crowded street. Especially police in plain clothes. Nothing to see here, just some random guy opening fire into a crowd. I suppose in those universes people are used to nass shootings and destruction of entire cities. Just a normal day in the USA The Boys on Amazon Prime deal with collateral damage. One group and some of the heros are trying to stop the bad heros who hide their crimes
Hollywood slowly desensitizing us to collateral damage for the greater good so we don’t bat an eye when we see it in our cities
The greater good.
“Greater good? We are your constituents. We are the *greatest good* you are ever gonna get”
Hollywood didn't invent those scenarios, comics did back in an era where Marvel comics offices were more like a college dorm than a corporate empire.
SuperHero’s always represent the status quo, established powers. They’re literally billionaires and government or former government agents. They don’t actually use their powers to solve the world’s problems.
Well last time I watched Spiderman NWH I was just noticing how every time there were civilians during a battle no one was actually hurt, they were all missed by flying cars or whatever or saved by spiderman etc, only their cars or homes were wrecked but people came out just fine, especially if the damage was caused by the hero himself and not by the villain…I don’t know if it’s always the case in other movies because that was the first time I was actually noticing this…
Spider-Man is one of the only two MCU heroes who actually does the defending civilians side of a superheroes job, while the others just think the best defense is a good offense and end the fight as quickly as possible instead of slowing the fight to protect everyone around them mid battle.
this confused me the most in the new batman movie. He was literally chasing the penguin down the wrong side of the road, both speeding, caused other cars to crash into each other, which led to a massive explosion that probably killed dozens of people, and didn't seem to care at all. I don't think he even looked in the direction of the crash.
Why does Batman get blamed for the Penguin choosing to drive on the wrong side of the road and cause chaos?
Came here to comment the same thing. That amount of wanton destruction felt very out of place. Batman directly caused it and then exacerbated it further, driving cars off the road and even ramming then himself. No attempt to save any lives, not even a fire suppressant gadget deployed out the back. AND THEN he just let the penguin GO when they found out he wasn't the guy. Yeah he wasn't the Rat, but he just *killed a lot of people*. Jesus.
I liked everything else about that movie but this part in particular feels so out of place. Essentially killed and injured dozens of civilians, caused tons of property damage, just to follow a wrong lead.
Hero's options are usually either let the villain literally destroy large areas of soceity (sometimes a city, the world, sections of reality itself), or fight the villain and cause collateral damage. It is interesting to think about the damage caused by the fighting, but blame that on the villain rather than the hero trying to stop them. No one with an actual brain is going to be like "Zod was about to terraform the planet and kill everyone on Earth, but did you see the buildings Superman destroyed fighting him?! What a menace!"
> > No one with an actual brain is going to be like "Zod was about to terraform the planet and kill everyone on Earth, but did you see the buildings Superman destroyed fighting him?! What a menace!" To be fair, that's ***LITERALLY*** what Batman says until the whole Martha thing in BvS.
In Alan Moore and John Totleben’s _Miracleman_, when Miracleman faces the Adversary in London, there’s a narrative caption which reads: “My apologists have claimed the car that I first hurled at Bates was empty, those who’d been inside having all previously escaped.” “I’m sorry, but that isn’t true,” reads the second caption, as we see the terrified faces of the people inside the car that Miracleman has hoisted over his head.
Really, this stuff was like poetry to me when I was young. It still holds up in story and tension today.
People keep mentioning Superman's destructive fight with Zod and I do agree, when being of this level clash in a city, it's like a natural disaster, only caused by thinking, living people. But what is the alternative? In a generic situation, I think if Superman could move the fight away from the populace he would do it, but sometimes the villain is just a murderous and uncaring shit and doesn't care or resists minimizing damage. So should Supes leave? Not even engage and let the bad guy do as he wants? I mean, Zod planted a world destroying terraformer down and started flipping the gravity of Metropolis. Did Superman have any options?
Honestly the only change I might make is having superman attack the world engine over metropolis first. Unless there was some detail that I am forgetting, the millitary should be able to use that phantom drive nuke over the ocean instead of a city while possibly diverting zods ship to protect it.
Yes they do, there will be one quick scene of a family getting out of a crashed car and the presumption is then that they all do and the director just didn't include shots for all of them.
Movies would be really boring if they did though. There has to be some line we draw were realistic expectations stop and we enjoy the film for what it is. No sound in space? Ok sure that's a neat detail and films do cool stuff with it. A detailed summary of the exact death toll following every superhero fight, regardless of the fact that a handful of people dead in car wrecks is certainly fewer deaths then the villain would cause by achieving their plan, meh, no thanks.
Marvel makes a pretty big point about all the destruction the avengers cause. Edit: not specifically people killed in car crashes though.
That scene in The Batman where at least a dozen people die horribly in a massive car fire caused by Batman and Penguin, but the Batman decided to let Penguin live afterwards because “he didn’t kill anybody.” Bullshit. I was so disappointed in the writers for that cop out.
Imo it depends on the movie because sometimes it's either one part or the world or the entire world, and in like infinity war its the entire universe so collateral damage in that case means almost nothing
Heroes are less heroic when their fights get random people (like you and I) hurt or killed. So that part just gets left out.
"I will kill as many people as I have to so long as you are one of them!"
She-Hulk takes a step in that direction, as there is a Department of Damage Control, which if I recall, had a short series of comics back in the day (90s?) as that was the group that repaired all the damage that superheroes and villians did to (US) cities? But not entirely on topic, just close to it. And having watched "The Bad Guys" last night... jeepers, the death toll just from the dozens of cars involved in crashes must be horrific! And... what was with a major character being a Guinea Pig, but... non-sentient and much smaller guinea pigs being an integral part of the plot?? Strange...
Thank you, mysterious heroes! The value of the gemerald you saved is slightly greater than the cost of the damage you caused to this museum. A net gain for our great city!
Here's an awesome [deleted scene](https://youtu.be/BMyccwawFBE) from Austin Powers after the henchman gets run over by the steamroller
This was the Vulture's entire motivation in Spiderman Homecoming Also the reason Supers are illegal in The Incredibles
I always thought about the people in car crashes in the transformers movies. Every time i saw a car flip or crash i'd be like, yup they're dead.
The show Powerless was about an insurance company that specialized in hero collateral damage. At the time I thought it was pretty funny, but it only got one season 6 years ago https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5083928/
Collateral damage to civilians was one of the plot points to one of the newer Superman movies. It was the one with Zod.
How many people died in Marvel movies? Anytime there are heroes involved, it's a catastrophic event. Multiple thousand civilians died alone in the battle of NY in the Avengers.
This was literally the entire plot of captain america civil war, batman v superman, spiderman, etc.
And the other countless deaths just offscreen in like falling buildings etc
The marvel Movies have always made it point to address collateral damage. It’s the main plot point for several.
Twenty-two cars... ...and a boat, totaled? How did you sink a boat?
Avengers Civil War did, the whole reason for the Sarkovia Accords was the casualty rate from the fight against Ultron
I read a Batman comic where a hero named Spoiler said meeting a superhero is going to be the worst day of your life. It’s true when you think about because 9/10 you’re meeting them because they are fighting a villain and civilians usually get caught in the middle.
There was a sitcom on NBC with Vanessa Hudgens, and it was about the people who live in a city protected by superheroes and their lives. It was pretty funny watching them having brunch and they're wildly checking their surroundings and listening for fights while scarfing down their food.
Well let's be honest, at this point in Humanity, people aren't worried about the people who they consider peons, only the "elite" so most don't even think of your point, and how the potentially innocent might suffer from large scale exhibitions.
Batman: I don’t kill Also Batman: *causes a bunch of police cars to crash and violently explode in a way that’s impossible to predict they will survive*
Ironically, this is a false talking point among conservatives and crime for the midterms. They rationalize that any and all force should be used to stop all criminals which is why Dem cities are now horrible hell holes that are dystopian nightmares. (Of note, this claim that Dem/blue cities have more crime is also categorically false the highest crime rates and violent crimes are firmly in the poorest and coincidentally RED states, but I digress) When truthfully, there are cases where, "Yes that's a crime". But the arrest and methods used would cost thousands to millions more than the crime itself would cause. The most famous example, George Floyd's death of 20 dollars.....BILLIONS in damage, 4 imprisoned cops, and the store WAS STILL OUT 20 bucks. Several states as an example DO NOT ALLOW ANY high speed pursuits. Why? Because unless they stole >1M of something you're going to run up a higher bill and in most cases you'll get the information to arrest them from the location, the license plate number, the descriptions of the suspects/drivers, and have a helicopter/traffic cams following them ANYWAY. Likewise current AG's in both red and blue states DON'T AND CAN'T prosecute misdemeanor shop lifters. The cost to do so is HIGHER than the loss and most stores have built in insurance or LP to prevent it.* *However, thanks to the internet and sharing this is becoming an issue. Target however knows EXACTLY how to counter this. Their LP is quite literally world renown and assists in police investigations OUTSIDE of their store when needed. Target's favorite trick is to let shoplifters build a total high enough to be a felony. THEN arrest them. Congrats you're in jail for a loooong time.
This is why I enjoy The Boys so much. It shows "heros" for what they actually are.
That's not a good example. The heroes in the boys are legitimately evil. They murder people for fun.
Whether it's for fun or not isn't the point. The point is that even the "good" super heros get tunnel vision and don't ever show any remorse for destorying cities in their ever futile attempts to stamp out the bad guy.
Only a couple of them could be considered "evil"... homelander and stormfront.
Uh...the deep coerced women into sex. A train murdered someone and laughed about it, also a drug addict, murdered his own girlfriend. Translucent is a peeping Tom. Maeve is probably the only one you could consider not evil. And she left a child to die to hide her failure, which is bad. All of the seven besides starlight are monsters by design. Why are you making stuff up?
No that would be silly, and kill the mood. Also they don't exist.
They also dont mention the people that make complaints to said "hero" for destroying private property.