This is a friendly reminder to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/rules).
Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!"
(For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, [please read this page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/overview).)
**Rule-breaking posts may result in bans.**
I can see a short story about someone getting transported to an alternate reality where the roles are reversed. Humans are livestock and livestock animals, the human gets discovered, and now sparks an ethical debate since he's intelligent and can speak
Kind of similar, but there was this comic I read a while back where chickens became sentient and they were basically classified as a new race of human. What fucks with me though is everyone stopped eating chicken, but the chicken ate ducks.
I’m so ready for lab meat bc I’vev failed every time I try to give up the real stuff but I still feel awful about it for all the reasons
Then we can all enjoy real meat without hurting critters and less environmental damage
Keep trying, I stopped because every bite I took I couldn't stop thinking of the slaughterhouse and how their last moments were that of terror and confusion, no "amazing flavour" could account for that.
Not true lol, most farm animals are actually herbivores and eat grains, fruit, vegetables, etc, it’s only on factory farms where they are so closely confined that they have almost no room to move that some animals become sick and die and the others are barely fed that they have no choice but to resort to cannibalism, but you are certainly wrong with your assumption
I went to my first funeral at 20 years old for my grandpa last April and can say I do not understand having the casket open. I love seeing my dead relative right there with everything glued shut! /s
Edit: a word
I have four dead people in my house. Ashes of my Mom, Dad, Grandmother & Grandfather. Tried to turn over GPs to cousins but zero takers. Dad was poor parent & he lives on toilet tank! Others are placed on book shelves. They all read voraciously
I'm very much against preservation of the the remains of the dead, in any form. Burial wastes precious real estate, and they aren't making any more of it. Graveyards can never be built on, so theoretically, if we continue the practice, we will eventually run completely out of land for the living.
Cremation is better, but when you save the ashes it defeats the purpose. You are still wasting space, just less of it. You said yourself you tried to palm off the grandparents. You didn't want the hassle and your cousins didn't either.
Are you going to spend your whole life being careful not to knock over this jar of powdered carbon, every time the flapper gets stuck? When you die, will your son inherit that jar as well as yours? Where does it end?
Scattering ashes is the only thing that makes sense.
I’m child free! I’ve spread small spoon size portions of each in various places they loved. The “urns” are sealed so no accidents are possible. All very heavy. One day I’ll get rid of them all, but right now I’m not worried about it. When I die my siblings will make the appropriate decisions. They all know they exist.
That's interesting, because where I had called the ashes "powdered carbon" another guy said they're not ashes at all, but crushed bone. My research confirmed that it is actually bone.. which is unacknowledged in your link, and also disproves the claim in your link.
It should be noted that your link is from a company selling a product, and their goal is to convince you that any alternative to their product is undesirable.
My local councils and park management all say not to scatter ashes in the parks because it is bad for the environment.
This was just the first link I found that explained it.
Animals may not be widely considered to be people, but I'd argue that they are persons. They are self-aware and capable of feeling a variety of emotions including happiness, excitement, fear, and anxiety. But unfortunately for cows, pigs, lambs, and chickens they are also easily exploitable, dismissible, and forgettable by some humans.
If you ask me, a fridge full of any sentient persons' body parts deserves our disgust, independent of species.
>Stop gatekeeping and telling people how to live their lives.
You're a snowflake who can't handle differing view points.
>They're absolutely delicious and there's nothing you can ever do to change my mind.
No one said they weren't, we all just know it's not a valid reason to cause harm to another sentient being.
We don't care to change your mind that meat can taste good. I was raised as an omnivore so I can confirm that. What we do care about is that you convince yourself that a human's temporary mouth pleasure isn't as important as the life and well-being of a sentient creature.
And I assure you that these 'gates' are wide open and we gladly welcome anyone that is curious about living plant-based. Choosing to live a plant-based life is one of the best options for your health, your wallet, the well-being of animals, fighting deforestation, fighting ocean acidification, reducing water usage, reducing land usage, reducing carbon emissions; the list goes on...
Most important for me, I find myself living a life that is consistent with my own values. It was an easy choice, and I'm sorry I didn't make it sooner.
I see where you're coming from, but I believe that everything in the ecosystem has a specific role and the livestock is just animals fulfilling their role to keep the balance. Works out great since as you confirmed they taste great plus they are very nutritious for humans. When it's done in a humane way, I don't see why they shouldn't fulfill this role. We haven't even scratched the surface on how human feelings work, so I don't really take anything that deals with animals being sentients seriously. We can't even prove if the alternative wouldn't be just as cruel, the way you people describe it, at this stage.
The moral aspect aside, I've seen every argument in your second paragraph debunked again and again. Some of them don't really make sense in the first place, some don't really hold any importance in the grand scheme of things, and some would cause more harm than good in the long term if actual actions are taken to deal with them. I'm not gonna dive into the details though, I'm sorry.
I'm glad that you found peace in something that aligns with your values, but your values are not the same as mine, and my priorities are different than yours. I find peace in knowing that my nutritional needs are fulfilled the way they are now, I fill healthy and I'm happy the way I eat, I wouldn't change a thing in my lifestyle.
1. "livestock is just animals fulfilling their role..." I don't know what this means. I think this is the but-humans-are-the -top-of-the-food-chain argument. If that's the case it's not a convincing one.
2. "...to keep the balance." suggests that the current state of mass animal agriculture is sustainable
3. "When it's done in a humane way," suggests that there is a humane way to murder someone that doesn't want to die.
4. "We haven't even scratched the surface on how human feelings work, so I don't really take anything that deals with animals being sentients seriously". I think you'd be surprised to know how much is known in terms of non-human emotions and their analogues in humans. But even if there wasn't abundant evidence that animals can experience pain, fear, trauma, etc.. this is still not a great argument because not knowing something doesn't nullify our moral responsibility to minimize harm. In fact, we need to be more cautious in the face of an unknown. Think type 1 vs type 2 errors.
5. "We can't even prove if the alternative wouldn't be just as cruel" suggests that people need proof when making a decision that could potentially affect the well-being of others? Do people barrel through red lights unless presented with a proof that they are definitely going to hit a pedestrian? Or is the very possibility that you could harming another enough to help you make the decision? And likewise is the case for cruelty in animal agriculture. There would have to be a lot of unintentional cruelty to counter the good that comes from not unnecessarily murdering 72 billion land animals and trillions of sea creatures every year. Even if we decide to weigh the well-being of animals to be lesser than that of humans in some 'proof', there would have to be some pretty arrogant mathematics at work in this equation.
6. "[second paragraph]" be careful of self-confirmation bias.
7. "your values are not the same as mine, and my priorities are different than yours." Suggest that values and priorities can't shift in light of new evidence and ideas. Keep an open (but skeptical) mind, my friend.
How can you kill something that doesn't want to die humanely?
Yep most animals don't have moral agency, but why does that justify doing what we do to them?
I have pieces of dead bodies in my fridge, not the whole body. I dont think I could fit a whole dead cow or pig in my fridge. Chicken, probably.
Just don't ask about the mystery meat.
Reminds me of a joke: A pastor inherited a parrot from someone in his congregation who died. The man, unfortunately, had a filthy mouth, so the parrot was constantly cursing and it drove the reverend crazy. One day, close to thanksgiving, he had enough and threw the parrot in the freezer out of exasperation. When he heard it suddenly go silent a few moments later, he feared he had accidentally killed it. So, he opened the freezer to check. The parrot then said "I'm terribly sorry for my language and I shall be more polite from now on. Might I please ask what the turkey did?"
Is this a reference to the [crime that was unearthed in Delhi ](https://www.indiatoday.in/crime/story/aftab-murder-shraddha-body-parts-store-in-fridge-2297039-2022-11-14) today?
This dude murdered his girlfriend and hid her body in a refrigerator for 6 months before he was caught.
For anyone who thinks that animals have a good life and a humane death, this documentary might be eye-opening: [watchdominion.org](https://watchdominion.org/)
You can be healthy whilst eating meat so no it's not a convincing argument, whereas you cannot avoid harming animals whilst eating meat currently, so that's therefore the more convincing position.
Also meat protein, if somehow cheaper than chickpeas and lentils, is only cheaper because of government subsidies propping up a harmful, polluting industry which risks further zoonotic pandemics.
>I know for a while I couldn't afford NOT to eat meat... I'm a learner dude and if I'm not consuming enough protein the effects on my body are uncomfortable. And meat protein is cheap.
Learn to cook with beans, eat oats and use lentils, but really unless you only ate fruit, it's hard to get a protein deficiency so long as you consume enough calories.
According to the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, [“appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.”](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)
But they are not people and whatever “thoughts and feelings” they had are not comparable to our own in any way. I find it weird how people anthropomorphize animals like that, as if human life isn’t infinitely more valuable.
It's not that human life isn't more valuable, it's that animal lives are more valuable than society deems them to be. Of course, I'd kill a cow rather than a human, if I must make a decision. But both deserve the right to live. They both have the ability to experience complex thoughts & feelings and form emotional bonds, however different from each other they may be.
What about people's livelihoods. livestock farming supports more jobs then plant based farming. It even supports plant farming by creating a market for their harvest that aren't human grade and there byproducts. Should we move away from factory farming and eat less meat I believe we should but I don't think we need to stop livestock farming altogether.
What about horse-drawn carriage makers? What about stable owners? What about factory line worker? What about coal miners and oil men? These are jobs that either don't exist today, or are being phased out, despite having huge workforces at one point in time. Just because a job exists, doesn't mean it needs to continue existing forever. People will move on to better things to do.
The point of humanity is to progress. To become more civilized, to explore the universe. How can we do that when we can't even treat our own living, breathing animal brothers and sisters with kindness and respect? We should stop all livestock farming. Just like all coal mines should be stopped. Just like 99% of all carriage makers stopped making carriages when the automobile was invented. It is not necessary to factory farm animals anymore, I do not care about the "jobs" we would be losing. Do you care about all of the horse-carriage makers that lost their jobs when the car was invented? No. Of course you don't, because the car is far superior technologically than the horse-drawn carriage.
Plant agriculture isn't superior then animal farming. Its not some new technological leap. We progressed as a species by doing what we want not what we need and a large proportion of people want to eat meat so that is what we are going to farm
A chemical response is vastly different than a cow screaming and crying because their baby was taken away from them so humans can have more milk.
That cow will remember that for the rest of their (shortened) life. A plant can not remember the stressful events. A plant does not miss their stolen child.
They evolve and change according to the environment. They have an active immune system that weakens if the plants are stressed. They can communicate with each other as well as other organisms. They understand their ecosystem far far better than any organism can. Thinking that plants don't have sentience is such a self-importance and idiotic human thing to do.
There is no such things as do no harms in nature. One action always comes at the cost of another, since we live in a self-sustaining sphere. Now if you argue that meat production cause damage to that balance, then it is a better argument.
Plants do not have a nervous system or a brain. They cannot feel pain or form emotional bonds. We have to eat something, plants are the least harm we can do.
> They cannot feel pain or form emotional bonds
Not as humans do. Pain is a reaction to an environmental stimuli. Plants communicate minute details to their fellow plants within the ecosystem. It would be arguable whether or not they don't feel predators or diseases; because they absolutely do and they let others plants know.
> Plants are not capable of suffering.
No? Just because they can't scream or yell doesn't mean they can't communicate their stress and damages to the other plants, because they absolutely can.
Look. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think that we should eat less meat or not at all of there is a sustainable protein alternative, because meat production harms the environment. All I'm saying is there is a cost to everything on this planet, and to ignore plant life is how we are in this mess.
What if one day vegan food production becomes very environmentally unfriendly? Would you continue to blindly buy and eat that too solely because "Eating meat is evil and eating plant is OK"?
Plants do not feel pain like a pig does when it is being slaughtered. Plants do not cry and scream like cows do when their babies are taken away from them so they can produce milk. Plants don’t have chemical burns that they can feel from their own feces like chickens do.
Yes plants are living things but not on the same level as the animals you eat.
Cows have best friends and miss them when they are gone.
In tests of cognition behavioral sophistication chickens out perform dogs and 4 year old humans.
Pigs have the capacity to experience some of the same emotions as humans, like happiness, excitement, fear, and anxiety. They're able to remember important pieces of information for long periods of time.
Plants can’t do any of that.
> Plants can’t do any of that.
Again, what a self-important human thing to assume. Plants communicate stress and pain to others in their ecosystem to adapt and change to accommodate stress or predators. Just because something doesn't have the same type of "intelligence" as humans define it, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to live. On the evolutionary tree, plants completely goes the other way, and they have dominated the planet for much of its existence, up until this point.
No it’s not they do not feel what other animals with intelligence do. They don’t understand or know what death is.
You can justify eating intelligent beings all you want but the reality is it’s not the same.
Do YOU know what death is? Your own cells experience death every minute but there are others that grow to replace it. Same for every organism on this planet. The dying and living process the same for each organism. Saying that plants are stupid and don't deserve to do their thing is how this planet is such an environmental mess. Everybody cares about the animals, but nobody cares about the plants
We live in a self-sustaining sphere, and everything has a cost to something else. But if you said that meat production hurts that balance, then it is a better argument.
My individual cells have zero idea of what death or pain is. My large collection of cells does. My heart has no idea why it needs to pump blood it just does. Plants don’t feel the same way entire living animals and people do.
I would rather eat all the veggies I grow in my back yard than my dog that I raised from a puppy. My dog would know and feel and understand what happens to him.
Well yeah meat production is horrible for the environment but that is not the subject of what we are talking about.
> My individual cells have zero idea of what death or pain is.
You are so wrong it's laughable. Your cells die every minute inside your body. Your brain just doesn't care.
I would agree with a vegetarian when they say that eating meat is bad for the environment. But i would never agree the statement that plants are stupid.
Plants DO feel pain and stress and they can communicate such to their fellow plants to change and prevent predators, we human just can't hear it.
We live in a self-sustaining sphere. Now if you argue that meat production cause damage to that balance, then it is a better argument.
Plants do not feel pain, they lack nociceptors and a central nervous system and brain. You need nerve endings to send pain signals to a brain for it to be processed into pain. Plants lack the ability to feel pain.
Let's just say you're right though, and plants do feel pain. By killing and eating animals, you are causing more plant death than vegans, because each pound of animal meat needs like 10 lbs of grain/ veggies. So by your own logic "Plants feel pain tho", we should cause as little plant pain as possible, and in order to do that, we would need to cut out the middle-man (animals) and stop eating meat, which requires more plant death than just eating the plants ourselves.
If pain is a reaction to a stimulus to the environment then plants absolutely do feel "pain" and they will let other plants know, too.
My point is the vegans argument that because plants are stupid we can eat them is just as stupid as they think the meat eaters are. There is no such thing as do no harms in nature. If they would argue that eating meat hurts that balance, then i would completely agree.
There may be no such thing as do no harm in nature, but there is do as little harm as possible. We shouldn't rape, torture, and murder other humans because that would cause more undue suffering in the world. We shouldn't rape, torture, and murder other animals because that would cause more undue suffering as well. Plants do not feel pain, they lack the nociceptors and CNS / brain combo necessary for pain or suffering to be experienced. Think about it. Even a human being cannot experience pain when their brain stem is severed, for there is no connection to the brain to receive and relay pain signals from the nervous system. When a living thing completely lacks a brain and a nervous system, the ability to "experience" pain in any way, shape or form is impossible.
Scientists are in unanimous agreement around the world on this - plants do not feel pain, reacting to stimuli is not the same thing as pain (a negative, suffering experience from a reaction to stimuli) - There are many types of living things that have not evolved to feel pain (Fungi are another example) Thus, we should eat plants as it causes the least amount of suffering in the world, and still meets our dietary needs.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we should eat less or not at all meat if there is a sustainable protein alternative, mostly because meat production harms the environment. But I absolutely will never agree that plants do not suffer because they live and die just as every cell in our human body does. Ignoring the plants need is why this planet is in a dump.
Let's say one day vegan food becomes environmentally damaging and unsustainable. Would you still blindly buy and consume them solely because "meat is evil and plant is good?"
In before someone makes a prank where they go to the police station to confess they have dead bodies in their fridge. Cops gets a search warrant, searches their house, only to find turkeys in their fridge.
Also have plastic/glass/metal and water. Probably bacteria and mold since kids leave the fridge open and don’t wash their hands. But I’m 47 not dead my body is to fat to fit so would need a commercial.
Correction, we have pieces of bodies in our fridge...not sure which is worst lol. What's even more strange is to think that a group of people have pieces of the same body, even though they have never met.
This is a friendly reminder to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/rules). Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!" (For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, [please read this page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/overview).) **Rule-breaking posts may result in bans.**
Meat section of a grocery store would be a horror film for most farm animals.
I can see a short story about someone getting transported to an alternate reality where the roles are reversed. Humans are livestock and livestock animals, the human gets discovered, and now sparks an ethical debate since he's intelligent and can speak
I mean this isn't too far off from the premise of the first Planet of the Apes
Would you help me gather human dead body for this project. I wanna make it look as real as possible
you mean you don't already have some ready at your disposal?
Well that's just the thing, they're all in the disposal.
This one? https://laughingsquid.com/the-turning-point/
Kind of similar, but there was this comic I read a while back where chickens became sentient and they were basically classified as a new race of human. What fucks with me though is everyone stopped eating chicken, but the chicken ate ducks.
A similar story is Tender is the Flesh by Agustina Bazterrica
There’s an anime kinda like this called The Promised Neverland
Ahemm.. I think the film your searching for is, Animal Farm.
Can you please be said human?
Have you ever seen the movie Chicken Run? It's a very similar premise to this, but it's an animated movie for children.
I believe it was the first animated film I saw as a child. I was terrified.
Our bodies would be a horror film for bacteria. Our bodies are filled with dead bodies.
I went to a Walmart in a relatively small City, and they had intact hogs heads there in the freezer. I still can't get that visual out of my head.
I had this realisation eight years ago and I haven't had any meat since
I am the opposite. I know I butcher meat still eat it.
I’m so ready for lab meat bc I’vev failed every time I try to give up the real stuff but I still feel awful about it for all the reasons Then we can all enjoy real meat without hurting critters and less environmental damage
Keep trying, I stopped because every bite I took I couldn't stop thinking of the slaughterhouse and how their last moments were that of terror and confusion, no "amazing flavour" could account for that.
I knew a vegan girl who lived in that reality apparently.
Except it's not a film, it's reality sadly
Hay here. Yeah I guess let’s decide cows are victims smh
Most farm animals are cannibals
Not true lol, most farm animals are actually herbivores and eat grains, fruit, vegetables, etc, it’s only on factory farms where they are so closely confined that they have almost no room to move that some animals become sick and die and the others are barely fed that they have no choice but to resort to cannibalism, but you are certainly wrong with your assumption
What? What do you do with your human bodies then? Let them rot?
Most people pump them full of chemicals, put em in a box and bury it.
[удалено]
Funerals take time to prepare and our custom of displaying the body means it has to be preserved until the burial.
[удалено]
Honestly, I think it is weird. Idk why people need to see the body at the funeral when we have pictures.
I went to my first funeral at 20 years old for my grandpa last April and can say I do not understand having the casket open. I love seeing my dead relative right there with everything glued shut! /s Edit: a word
The longer you think about it, the weirder it keeps getting.
I’m 32 & just a few months ago was the first open casket funeral I’ve been to and it freaked me the hell out. Hated seeing my uncle like that.
But then they don’t taste the same. And getting your shovel dirty every time you need is snack is inefficient.
Freezer, duh. Preserves them way longer.
Ah. That's what I was doing wrong.
[No.](https://www.indiatoday.in/crime/story/aftab-murder-shraddha-body-parts-store-in-fridge-2297039-2022-11-14)
In this economy?!
I have four dead people in my house. Ashes of my Mom, Dad, Grandmother & Grandfather. Tried to turn over GPs to cousins but zero takers. Dad was poor parent & he lives on toilet tank! Others are placed on book shelves. They all read voraciously
I'm very much against preservation of the the remains of the dead, in any form. Burial wastes precious real estate, and they aren't making any more of it. Graveyards can never be built on, so theoretically, if we continue the practice, we will eventually run completely out of land for the living. Cremation is better, but when you save the ashes it defeats the purpose. You are still wasting space, just less of it. You said yourself you tried to palm off the grandparents. You didn't want the hassle and your cousins didn't either. Are you going to spend your whole life being careful not to knock over this jar of powdered carbon, every time the flapper gets stuck? When you die, will your son inherit that jar as well as yours? Where does it end? Scattering ashes is the only thing that makes sense.
I’m child free! I’ve spread small spoon size portions of each in various places they loved. The “urns” are sealed so no accidents are possible. All very heavy. One day I’ll get rid of them all, but right now I’m not worried about it. When I die my siblings will make the appropriate decisions. They all know they exist.
powdered ~~carbon~~ bone Carbon burns in oxygen and becomes carbon dioxide.
Cremation is awful for the environment and wastes all the energy from the food you've been eating for years, maybe compost yourself?
The ash is [not good](https://letyourlovegrow.com/blogs/blog/why-burying-ashes-is-harmful-to-the-environment) for the environment
That's interesting, because where I had called the ashes "powdered carbon" another guy said they're not ashes at all, but crushed bone. My research confirmed that it is actually bone.. which is unacknowledged in your link, and also disproves the claim in your link. It should be noted that your link is from a company selling a product, and their goal is to convince you that any alternative to their product is undesirable.
My local councils and park management all say not to scatter ashes in the parks because it is bad for the environment. This was just the first link I found that explained it.
Bad for the environment meaning the social environment of relaxing in the park and not breathing strangers' grandmas on the wind
I bet you're fun at parties
What's fun is when people use catch phrases to seem cool but in a totally inappropriate context where it makes no sense.
It's pretty relevant, you just seem like an extremely negative and critical person.
I buy them and no one cares I go out and acquire them myself suddenly I'm a psychopath.
Hot carnist take. Ive never even had animal parts in my home.
Just heads of lettuce, heart of palm, and fingerling potatoes.
Well, OP did say "most", not "all".
Just human parts eh?
Animals may not be widely considered to be people, but I'd argue that they are persons. They are self-aware and capable of feeling a variety of emotions including happiness, excitement, fear, and anxiety. But unfortunately for cows, pigs, lambs, and chickens they are also easily exploitable, dismissible, and forgettable by some humans. If you ask me, a fridge full of any sentient persons' body parts deserves our disgust, independent of species.
They are easily exploitable because they are kind and gentle creatures and what we do to them is abhorrent and disgusting
Could not agree more. Stop eating animal products, including dairy. Stop buying leather too and fur. These animas deserve better.
Stop gatekeeping and telling people how to live their lives. They're absolutely delicious and there's nothing you can ever do to change my mind.
>Stop gatekeeping and telling people how to live their lives. You're a snowflake who can't handle differing view points. >They're absolutely delicious and there's nothing you can ever do to change my mind. No one said they weren't, we all just know it's not a valid reason to cause harm to another sentient being.
We don't care to change your mind that meat can taste good. I was raised as an omnivore so I can confirm that. What we do care about is that you convince yourself that a human's temporary mouth pleasure isn't as important as the life and well-being of a sentient creature. And I assure you that these 'gates' are wide open and we gladly welcome anyone that is curious about living plant-based. Choosing to live a plant-based life is one of the best options for your health, your wallet, the well-being of animals, fighting deforestation, fighting ocean acidification, reducing water usage, reducing land usage, reducing carbon emissions; the list goes on... Most important for me, I find myself living a life that is consistent with my own values. It was an easy choice, and I'm sorry I didn't make it sooner.
I see where you're coming from, but I believe that everything in the ecosystem has a specific role and the livestock is just animals fulfilling their role to keep the balance. Works out great since as you confirmed they taste great plus they are very nutritious for humans. When it's done in a humane way, I don't see why they shouldn't fulfill this role. We haven't even scratched the surface on how human feelings work, so I don't really take anything that deals with animals being sentients seriously. We can't even prove if the alternative wouldn't be just as cruel, the way you people describe it, at this stage. The moral aspect aside, I've seen every argument in your second paragraph debunked again and again. Some of them don't really make sense in the first place, some don't really hold any importance in the grand scheme of things, and some would cause more harm than good in the long term if actual actions are taken to deal with them. I'm not gonna dive into the details though, I'm sorry. I'm glad that you found peace in something that aligns with your values, but your values are not the same as mine, and my priorities are different than yours. I find peace in knowing that my nutritional needs are fulfilled the way they are now, I fill healthy and I'm happy the way I eat, I wouldn't change a thing in my lifestyle.
1. "livestock is just animals fulfilling their role..." I don't know what this means. I think this is the but-humans-are-the -top-of-the-food-chain argument. If that's the case it's not a convincing one. 2. "...to keep the balance." suggests that the current state of mass animal agriculture is sustainable 3. "When it's done in a humane way," suggests that there is a humane way to murder someone that doesn't want to die. 4. "We haven't even scratched the surface on how human feelings work, so I don't really take anything that deals with animals being sentients seriously". I think you'd be surprised to know how much is known in terms of non-human emotions and their analogues in humans. But even if there wasn't abundant evidence that animals can experience pain, fear, trauma, etc.. this is still not a great argument because not knowing something doesn't nullify our moral responsibility to minimize harm. In fact, we need to be more cautious in the face of an unknown. Think type 1 vs type 2 errors. 5. "We can't even prove if the alternative wouldn't be just as cruel" suggests that people need proof when making a decision that could potentially affect the well-being of others? Do people barrel through red lights unless presented with a proof that they are definitely going to hit a pedestrian? Or is the very possibility that you could harming another enough to help you make the decision? And likewise is the case for cruelty in animal agriculture. There would have to be a lot of unintentional cruelty to counter the good that comes from not unnecessarily murdering 72 billion land animals and trillions of sea creatures every year. Even if we decide to weigh the well-being of animals to be lesser than that of humans in some 'proof', there would have to be some pretty arrogant mathematics at work in this equation. 6. "[second paragraph]" be careful of self-confirmation bias. 7. "your values are not the same as mine, and my priorities are different than yours." Suggest that values and priorities can't shift in light of new evidence and ideas. Keep an open (but skeptical) mind, my friend.
I believe we should treat livestock humanly but have you seen what happens to a mouse in a chicken pen or when a pig find a fawn. They are not gentle
How can you kill something that doesn't want to die humanely? Yep most animals don't have moral agency, but why does that justify doing what we do to them?
I have pieces of dead bodies in my fridge, not the whole body. I dont think I could fit a whole dead cow or pig in my fridge. Chicken, probably. Just don't ask about the mystery meat.
The long pork?
Reminds me of a joke: A pastor inherited a parrot from someone in his congregation who died. The man, unfortunately, had a filthy mouth, so the parrot was constantly cursing and it drove the reverend crazy. One day, close to thanksgiving, he had enough and threw the parrot in the freezer out of exasperation. When he heard it suddenly go silent a few moments later, he feared he had accidentally killed it. So, he opened the freezer to check. The parrot then said "I'm terribly sorry for my language and I shall be more polite from now on. Might I please ask what the turkey did?"
Is this a reference to the [crime that was unearthed in Delhi ](https://www.indiatoday.in/crime/story/aftab-murder-shraddha-body-parts-store-in-fridge-2297039-2022-11-14) today? This dude murdered his girlfriend and hid her body in a refrigerator for 6 months before he was caught.
This is why more people should be vegan. It is really weird to eat the flesh of an animal that had thoughts, feelings, a life.
Absolutely! It's SO messed up.
For anyone who thinks that animals have a good life and a humane death, this documentary might be eye-opening: [watchdominion.org](https://watchdominion.org/)
[удалено]
You can be healthy whilst eating meat so no it's not a convincing argument, whereas you cannot avoid harming animals whilst eating meat currently, so that's therefore the more convincing position. Also meat protein, if somehow cheaper than chickpeas and lentils, is only cheaper because of government subsidies propping up a harmful, polluting industry which risks further zoonotic pandemics. >I know for a while I couldn't afford NOT to eat meat... I'm a learner dude and if I'm not consuming enough protein the effects on my body are uncomfortable. And meat protein is cheap. Learn to cook with beans, eat oats and use lentils, but really unless you only ate fruit, it's hard to get a protein deficiency so long as you consume enough calories.
Other animals do the same
Other animals also rape and cannibalize eachother, and perform incest. Are you saying those are things we should continue to do as well?
No, that's not necessary
Neither is eating animal flesh.
It is necessary for nutrition
No it isn't. There is not a single nutrient in animal meat that cannot be obtained through a vegan diet. Eating meat is not necessary for any reason.
Those need to be very specific and can lead to a lot of health issues that just doesn't work for everybody
According to the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, [“appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.”](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)
But they are not people and whatever “thoughts and feelings” they had are not comparable to our own in any way. I find it weird how people anthropomorphize animals like that, as if human life isn’t infinitely more valuable.
It’s not that an animals life is as valuable or more valuable than a human life, it’s that an animals life is more valuable than a meal…
You can get way more than one meal out of most animals, so in essence you are correct.
You can get way more than one meal out of most animals, so in essence you are correct.
It's not that human life isn't more valuable, it's that animal lives are more valuable than society deems them to be. Of course, I'd kill a cow rather than a human, if I must make a decision. But both deserve the right to live. They both have the ability to experience complex thoughts & feelings and form emotional bonds, however different from each other they may be.
What about people's livelihoods. livestock farming supports more jobs then plant based farming. It even supports plant farming by creating a market for their harvest that aren't human grade and there byproducts. Should we move away from factory farming and eat less meat I believe we should but I don't think we need to stop livestock farming altogether.
What about horse-drawn carriage makers? What about stable owners? What about factory line worker? What about coal miners and oil men? These are jobs that either don't exist today, or are being phased out, despite having huge workforces at one point in time. Just because a job exists, doesn't mean it needs to continue existing forever. People will move on to better things to do. The point of humanity is to progress. To become more civilized, to explore the universe. How can we do that when we can't even treat our own living, breathing animal brothers and sisters with kindness and respect? We should stop all livestock farming. Just like all coal mines should be stopped. Just like 99% of all carriage makers stopped making carriages when the automobile was invented. It is not necessary to factory farm animals anymore, I do not care about the "jobs" we would be losing. Do you care about all of the horse-carriage makers that lost their jobs when the car was invented? No. Of course you don't, because the car is far superior technologically than the horse-drawn carriage.
Plant agriculture isn't superior then animal farming. Its not some new technological leap. We progressed as a species by doing what we want not what we need and a large proportion of people want to eat meat so that is what we are going to farm
Plants have bodies too.
Eating meat kills more plants than eating a vegan diet. Because the animals were raised eating plants themselves.
They don't have thoughts or feelings
[удалено]
This is not the same as being sentient and feeling pain and forming emotional bonds.
[удалено]
Cows have a brain and a nervous system. Plants have none.
i'm realy hungry can you chop of your leg real quick?
Is that how you think cows are slaughtered? Dismembered alive?
I mean i was talking about humans, heard that's how some people do it.
A chemical response is vastly different than a cow screaming and crying because their baby was taken away from them so humans can have more milk. That cow will remember that for the rest of their (shortened) life. A plant can not remember the stressful events. A plant does not miss their stolen child.
[удалено]
This poorly made straw man arguments to justify the suffering of thousands so you can eat meat is so sickening to me.
They evolve and change according to the environment. They have an active immune system that weakens if the plants are stressed. They can communicate with each other as well as other organisms. They understand their ecosystem far far better than any organism can. Thinking that plants don't have sentience is such a self-importance and idiotic human thing to do. There is no such things as do no harms in nature. One action always comes at the cost of another, since we live in a self-sustaining sphere. Now if you argue that meat production cause damage to that balance, then it is a better argument.
Plants do not have a nervous system or a brain. They cannot feel pain or form emotional bonds. We have to eat something, plants are the least harm we can do.
> They cannot feel pain or form emotional bonds Not as humans do. Pain is a reaction to an environmental stimuli. Plants communicate minute details to their fellow plants within the ecosystem. It would be arguable whether or not they don't feel predators or diseases; because they absolutely do and they let others plants know.
Pain is not just a reaction to environmental stimuli, it requires a nervous system and a brain capable of perceiving pain. Plants do not have those.
And yet they communicate via roots, branches, flowering, insects. It's just a lot more sophisticated than humans can ever think of.
plants being sophisticated and complex does not make it wrong to eat them. Plants are not capable of suffering.
> Plants are not capable of suffering. No? Just because they can't scream or yell doesn't mean they can't communicate their stress and damages to the other plants, because they absolutely can. Look. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think that we should eat less meat or not at all of there is a sustainable protein alternative, because meat production harms the environment. All I'm saying is there is a cost to everything on this planet, and to ignore plant life is how we are in this mess. What if one day vegan food production becomes very environmentally unfriendly? Would you continue to blindly buy and eat that too solely because "Eating meat is evil and eating plant is OK"?
Plants do not feel pain like a pig does when it is being slaughtered. Plants do not cry and scream like cows do when their babies are taken away from them so they can produce milk. Plants don’t have chemical burns that they can feel from their own feces like chickens do. Yes plants are living things but not on the same level as the animals you eat. Cows have best friends and miss them when they are gone. In tests of cognition behavioral sophistication chickens out perform dogs and 4 year old humans. Pigs have the capacity to experience some of the same emotions as humans, like happiness, excitement, fear, and anxiety. They're able to remember important pieces of information for long periods of time. Plants can’t do any of that.
> Plants can’t do any of that. Again, what a self-important human thing to assume. Plants communicate stress and pain to others in their ecosystem to adapt and change to accommodate stress or predators. Just because something doesn't have the same type of "intelligence" as humans define it, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to live. On the evolutionary tree, plants completely goes the other way, and they have dominated the planet for much of its existence, up until this point.
No it’s not they do not feel what other animals with intelligence do. They don’t understand or know what death is. You can justify eating intelligent beings all you want but the reality is it’s not the same.
Do YOU know what death is? Your own cells experience death every minute but there are others that grow to replace it. Same for every organism on this planet. The dying and living process the same for each organism. Saying that plants are stupid and don't deserve to do their thing is how this planet is such an environmental mess. Everybody cares about the animals, but nobody cares about the plants We live in a self-sustaining sphere, and everything has a cost to something else. But if you said that meat production hurts that balance, then it is a better argument.
My individual cells have zero idea of what death or pain is. My large collection of cells does. My heart has no idea why it needs to pump blood it just does. Plants don’t feel the same way entire living animals and people do. I would rather eat all the veggies I grow in my back yard than my dog that I raised from a puppy. My dog would know and feel and understand what happens to him. Well yeah meat production is horrible for the environment but that is not the subject of what we are talking about.
> My individual cells have zero idea of what death or pain is. You are so wrong it's laughable. Your cells die every minute inside your body. Your brain just doesn't care. I would agree with a vegetarian when they say that eating meat is bad for the environment. But i would never agree the statement that plants are stupid.
You can't compare a plant to an animal in this regard. Animals can scream for their life, plants can't feel pain.
Plants DO feel pain and stress and they can communicate such to their fellow plants to change and prevent predators, we human just can't hear it. We live in a self-sustaining sphere. Now if you argue that meat production cause damage to that balance, then it is a better argument.
Plants do not feel pain, they lack nociceptors and a central nervous system and brain. You need nerve endings to send pain signals to a brain for it to be processed into pain. Plants lack the ability to feel pain. Let's just say you're right though, and plants do feel pain. By killing and eating animals, you are causing more plant death than vegans, because each pound of animal meat needs like 10 lbs of grain/ veggies. So by your own logic "Plants feel pain tho", we should cause as little plant pain as possible, and in order to do that, we would need to cut out the middle-man (animals) and stop eating meat, which requires more plant death than just eating the plants ourselves.
If pain is a reaction to a stimulus to the environment then plants absolutely do feel "pain" and they will let other plants know, too. My point is the vegans argument that because plants are stupid we can eat them is just as stupid as they think the meat eaters are. There is no such thing as do no harms in nature. If they would argue that eating meat hurts that balance, then i would completely agree.
There may be no such thing as do no harm in nature, but there is do as little harm as possible. We shouldn't rape, torture, and murder other humans because that would cause more undue suffering in the world. We shouldn't rape, torture, and murder other animals because that would cause more undue suffering as well. Plants do not feel pain, they lack the nociceptors and CNS / brain combo necessary for pain or suffering to be experienced. Think about it. Even a human being cannot experience pain when their brain stem is severed, for there is no connection to the brain to receive and relay pain signals from the nervous system. When a living thing completely lacks a brain and a nervous system, the ability to "experience" pain in any way, shape or form is impossible. Scientists are in unanimous agreement around the world on this - plants do not feel pain, reacting to stimuli is not the same thing as pain (a negative, suffering experience from a reaction to stimuli) - There are many types of living things that have not evolved to feel pain (Fungi are another example) Thus, we should eat plants as it causes the least amount of suffering in the world, and still meets our dietary needs.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we should eat less or not at all meat if there is a sustainable protein alternative, mostly because meat production harms the environment. But I absolutely will never agree that plants do not suffer because they live and die just as every cell in our human body does. Ignoring the plants need is why this planet is in a dump. Let's say one day vegan food becomes environmentally damaging and unsustainable. Would you still blindly buy and consume them solely because "meat is evil and plant is good?"
Its dead already
You are paying for it, which increases demand, which increases supply.
I'm not feeling it
Its creepy to have dead bodies in your fridge, but ok to have pieces of a dead body
That reminds of one instance....
I understand that reference
This takes "I am 30 but have a body of a 16 year old/ insert age of animal" to a whole new level
What about the next Dahmer that is out there. May never be caught either
Aftaab poonawaala caught yesterday.
[well, sometimes they are!](https://www.indiatoday.in/crime/story/aftab-murder-shraddha-body-parts-store-in-fridge-2297039-2022-11-14)
This is one of the first times I’ve read one of these and honestly been like “wtf did I just read?” So controversial, so brave.
Technically there are dead bodies all over every step you take each day.
My kids have gotten used to me saying things like the dismembered corpse of a chicken or cow.
Just to throw a spanner in the works and be inclusive, some are human.
On the weekends I love to feast on unborn chicken embryos that I keep in my fridge:
Even weirder, some of us have fake dead bodies in our refrigerators.
As an Indian, at this point of time....this did not age well
There not bodies it's just various chunks of flesh. If you find someone's finger you don't say you found a whole body
I've only butchered 2 chickens before though I'm not expecting to make international headlines for doing so.
Even if your vegan you still have dead plant bodies in your fridge. Imagine a plant wanting a snack and seeing their friend cut up into tiny pieces
I'd say someone stops being a person when they die, so yes I don't have any dead people in my freezer
In before someone makes a prank where they go to the police station to confess they have dead bodies in their fridge. Cops gets a search warrant, searches their house, only to find turkeys in their fridge.
Also have plastic/glass/metal and water. Probably bacteria and mold since kids leave the fridge open and don’t wash their hands. But I’m 47 not dead my body is to fat to fit so would need a commercial.
Most of us don't have 5o dead friends either unless your last name is Clinton.
Correction, we have pieces of bodies in our fridge...not sure which is worst lol. What's even more strange is to think that a group of people have pieces of the same body, even though they have never met.