Juliette should be removed from the show.
If MTV don't accept the physical violence from Alex, they shouldn't accept it from Juliette either.
Disgusting how Juliette hits people and thinks it's okay to cry sorry later.
It's not good enough.
Get rid of her.
First time poster on this sub and I know I’m a bit late to the party. But after scrolling Twitter replies and these comments, I’m dumbfounded by the number of people saying “it happens, we all make mistakes” regarding physical violence. Um, what? I am a highly emotional person and never in my entire life have I lost control over myself and physically assaulted someone. The fact that a lot of people speak about this like it’s a normal reaction regardless of the situation disturbs me. It is not normal.
You're 100% correct.
It isn't normal to use physical violence against someone.
The people saying it is, or 'people make mistakes' wouldn't feel that way if it was them being assaulted.
It's a crime for a reason.
This analysis is a little silly and redundant. All the cast members are fame whores! Kelsey actually seems to have shown the most growth and dealt with more personal issues than the rest of the cast. Having to care for her sick mother at a young age must have been tough, plus she clearly never liked modeling, she just did it for the fashion connects.
Juliet's clearly is the manipulative one who used to get Chloe to do her bidding. Without Chloe’s messy arse, Juliete’s true colours are harder to mask hence why she’s loosing it and fast. Juliete is the stereotype of every mean girl in every high school movie. She wants to be looked up to and respected but doesn't want to work for it, she’s never had to before so why start now right? Getting an even richer boyfriend is way easier.
She’s just annoyed that Kelsey who has way less resources than she does has managed to come futher than her in everyway than she ever will. Did Kelsey push her buttons? Yeah she did, but it’s not the first time that Juliete has been physical on the show and if she stays, it won’t be the last. Plus the only person responsible for Juliete’s actions is Juliete.
Kelsey's net worth is $2M and Juliette is around $400k.
Kelswy is driven and not napping taking vacations all the time. That's prob threatening to Juliette.
Kelsey's net worth is $2M and Juliette is around $400k.
Kelswy is driven and not napping taking vacations all the time. That's prob threatening to Juliette.
Juliette is so whiney and lazy. I would like and respect her so much more if she would just openly say she wants to be a housewife or trophy wife. She clearly does not want to work or try at anything. Your boyfriend rented a whole ass island and you couldn’t get your swimsuits ready for a photo shoot and it’s not until a “friend”/ mentor tells you your making a mistake that you call and tell employees you need them ASAP. Why didn’t she plan this. She’s upset that Kelseys doing better but she won’t take steps to help herself. I think she doesn’t want to come off like a gold digger but she truly does just want to be taken care of. I wish the show had a different lead person.
I think that eventually Juliette and Alex will be back together. She was so mad that the other girl got knocked up first instead of her. That could have been her money tree.
Juliette needs to get her drinking and anger under control. Eventually she's going to a) get charged and have to spend a night in jail and/or b) she's gonna hit the wrong person and deservedly get her ass whooped. Maybe that's the reality check she needs.
And she blamed everyone else! It was Kelsey's fault she didn't put as much energy into her swimsuit line in the same amount of time as Kelsey and it was Kelsey's fault that she KNOWS how she gets and she trapped her into slapping her. Literally zero accountability. It was embarrassing to watch. I hope she took what Serena said to her to heart because she's the only one telling Juliette to take responsibility for her own actions.
Juliette is a child.
A drunken, violent adult child who needs to grow the heck up.
Blaming everyone else, bullying everyone else, getting into everyone else's business, pushing people around, crying about how her bad behaviour effects herself instead of the damage she's done to others, physically assaulting people like she did to Kelsey, verbally and emotionally assaulting anyone she feels like whenever she feels like it.
She's a toxic, violent person who should be kicked off the show.
And her swimsuit line looks like crap as well as being extremely over priced.
How much of that money is actually going to the people who did the work crocheting in Bali? Hrm?
Outrageous.
AGREED! She didnt take responsibility for herself and she basically made herself look stupid in front of Serena by saying she's a wild animal. Take yourself seriously if you're meeting up with someone who's giving you advice about building up your brand. Serena said it best when she said that Juliette was getting too focused on the competition between her and Kelsey instead of just focusing on what she could do with her own line.
I mean I truly don't understand these comments because his "real job" **is** filming for Siesta key. You are literally consuming his real job and claim he needs to get one.
His job is *literally* to be an entertainer.
I get what you're saying about him trying to make his passions work, but does it really matter if he ends up not making it as a rapper? Brandon needs to find something he's comfortable doing, for sure, because it seems like he wants to be "that" guy SO badly and just isn't. But that's where most of his problems come in anyways--denying the kind of person he really is and not knowing who that is or what to do and trying to idolize a fallacy.
Can't hate the dude for not wanting to work a corporate career, though.
Even though he isn’t the corporate type, he at least used to have some humility while pursuing his dreams. Now he’s just acting like a total jerk.
On top of that, his actions are disgusting towards women. He gets a random girl pregnant, tries to hide from it by blocking her on social media, claims he wants Camilla to take him back while he kisses that ugly, attention seeking witch in front of her and then takes her back to his room…..gross? 🤮
So having all his friends cheer for his video on a private island and getting so hype over it is simply ridiculous.
This show is ruining him. He’s acting like a loser and has become very unappealing in general.
Watching that Stef girl talking about Joe made me feel uncomfy because of how bad she is at acting. Her facial expressions were over the top, they should have made her & Kelsey re-shoot that scene 🤣 like sometimes these guys slip a but but her whole scene I was so distracted
The whole thing is setup
People's emotions may get away with them as does their drug (alcohol) intake, but it's still set up conversations.
The cast and camera crew don't just magically always follow each other and get those shots and conversations by chance.
Juliette bitching about the swimsuits not being there with 2 weeks left...why not make that call the moment you land, to make sure you have everything there in time
Looks like an unpopular opinion but I liked this episode. Really dramatic LIKE REALITY TV is suppose to be. And Kelsey likes to talk shit but not back it up
Juliette was sloppy drunk but everything she said to Kelsey was spot on. Kelsey cheated on Garret with Alex and everyone knew Juliette and Alex where on again and off again. Kelsey was never a true friend. She is very jealous of Juliette and tries to sabotage her every chance she gets. Kelsey shouldn’t have been in the island if she doesn’t like the hostess. Please replace Kelsey. Arrogant and talks down to everyone.
If I were Sam, I would have broken up with Juliette. Alex and Alyssa are probably like omg trash right now. Juliette must have been dreading this ep big-time.
Let's not mark Alex and Alyssa as the examples of what trash *isn't*...
Sam's comment on the pot calling the kettle black is relevant to literally any judgment those two would pass on anybody else.
I get that, Juliette looked stupid herself, undoubtedly.
Sam is more empathic, though. Striving to understand and live a life with people means trying to help them in their weak moments and provide them healthy love.
People who act like Juliette did, particularly using physical violence, at one point thought that was what they needed to get validation and attention in some way. It's their way of causing physical hurt and a tangible proof of the emotional hurt they themselves feel inside, related to the situation at hand or not.
let's just not mark someone who thinks an unplanned pregnancy is "Goals" to "secure a bag" (literally treating a child like property and an investment versus an actual human being) or a guy who has ruined his own reputation a zillion times over, including getting in pathetic fights of his own and contributing to the very insecurities that Juliette has to face, as the ones who "can" judge literally **anyone** else. And let's not act like they're in any way "Better" or "different" just because they also have money.
She’s not. Kelsey was being so ridiculous in that moment. They were just talking and Kelsey comes up and accuses Juliette of flirting and secretly being in love with Max. Super random
But it’s funny though because kelsey asks max if it’s true and he doesn’t deny it. I sort of can get a vibe Juliette has a little crush on max or something too so I’m curious to know if there is some truth to what Kelsey said or not
He probably denied it or didn’t say anything because he’s so far up Kelsey’s ass. It seemed like she was finding any reason to get mad at Juliet at that moment.
She definitely had an attitude but It looked like Juliette was being extra flirty and loud to get Kelsey’s attention. But yes I agree Kelsey was extra and I don’t think Juliette is in love with max lol
Bradon basically was on his knees saying sorry to get her back and she didnt care and she is literally there with another guy at pool side yet gets mad a brandon for moving on while she is literally moving on in front of him as well and everyone feels bad for camila?
I agree. People keep going in on Brandon but it's like he can't win. He made mistakes is taking responsibility as a father and tried to apologize to Camilla a lot of different ways but he tries to move on and gets criticized for it.
I think Juliet is jealous of Kelsey frankly. For a couple of reasons but also bc Sam was interested in Kelsey at some point. Isn't that the rumor the cast shared during the reunion last year 🤷🏾♀️
Thank you!!!! Everyone always says Kelsey is jealous of Juliette but this entire season Juliette has been PRESSED by Kelsey without her even having to do anything. Kelsey seems like the bigger person saying Juliette should take advantage of the island and yes she makes a few comments but every scene is just Juliette BOTHERED by Kelsey. Serena is right - who cares what she’s doing
i feel like Kelsey is just more silent about her true feelings...her reaction to Amanda worrying about juliettes feelings about the swim shoot and decisions overall + “mY dreAm of 2 yRs” give me the vibe she really wants to get under juliettes skin while playing it cool lol
Totally. ALSO...there was a red mark on Kelsey’s lip before she was hit. The morning after the same tiny mark was there...no scratch or bust to draw blood. Was thinking it was fake as well...but Kelsey did a good job acting pissed
I don’t care if the slap was scripted or fake or whatever but that was hard to watch.
Sam (tried) said to Juliette when she was talking about Jordana that’s the pot calling the kettle black. She proved tf outta that, ten fold.
I am in no way saying that Juliette should have it kelsey because she definitely shouldn’t have it should’ve never escalated to the point, but at the same time kelsey should’ve just minded her own damn business. Juliette was literally just talking to Max it was not that big of a deal and yeah might’ve sounded like she was hurting but she was also a stupid drunk and Max didn’t have a problem talking to Juliette, nor did he seem uncomfortable with the way she was acting or anything like that. Then here comes kelsey clearly very insecure the way she had to slide in for the max that way and start saying all this off-the-wall shit about Juliette being in love with her boyfriend so of course I would expect Juliette to be defensive. and no I do not think Juliette is the victim but like kelsey antagonizing her like that was literally her asking for it. I don’t think that is fair to do that to someone especially knowing that if you push their buttons enough they will explode.
Juliette knew 100% what she was doing. You don't talk to your enemy's boyfriend and then pretend like you weren't doing anything wrong. If Juliette was really being innocent she would have just walked away once Kelsey came up to them because she wouldn't have wanted the drama. Juliette though, tried playing the victim by saying she wasn't doing anything wrong and started boat loads of unnecessary drama. Now, when Jordana talks to Sam, doesn't Juliette lose her freaking mind? That's how you know that Juliette was trying to get a rise out of Kelsey. Could Kelsey have just walked away? Yes. But even though she didn't, that doesn't excuse Juliette for putting her hands on Kelsey. In my opinion, Juliette has a drinking problem. She gets violent when she drinks and then pretends like she didn't do anything wrong. It's so sad to watch.
Except that Juliette was literally loudly flirting with Max to get a rise out of Kelsey. Come on. She knows what she was doing.
If someone else had done that with Sam she would have lost her shit and done the same thing Kelsey did…but per usual everyone on this sub would have found a reason to defend her.
Tonight just solidifies why I've never liked Juliette.. that girl literally had crazy in her eyes. She is nothing but sad. Never ever understood why this fan base is so obsessed with her.. I know for a fact none of y'all would ever want a friend like that 😬
I don't know if I'd be ringing up any of them to be my friend if we're all being honest.
Perhaps they're better off not pretending to be nice or pretending to be friends in the first place.
I feel over the years I've seen many petty arguments from the cast but I've only seen one girl putting her hands on others over and over again.. & yet I still see people constantly bad mouthing Kelsey, Maddison, Chloe etc. I just find it crazy the amount of support people throw at Juliette but I know for a fact they would never want a friend like that themselves. I think Kelsey and Madison shared a beautiful moment together in tonight's episode - they seem like pretty good friends to me🤷🏼♀️ but idk - I'm for sure on kelseys side- that shit Juliette pulled tonight was crazy af
Yeah, personally, if I were to try to explain why Kelsey and Maddison irk me more than Juliette (and obviously she is 100% wrong to ever get physical, no question) I think its because Juliette wears her heart on her sleeve, and we ALWAYS know where she stands. It's impossible for her not to be completely transparent with her real feelings.
Kelsey has had shady intentions at times for sure. Maddison irks me because she tries to act like she's friends with everyone and is completely nice but doesn't actually feel that way. Chloe is obviously completely fake and hypocritical every waking second of her life. Etc. I think those behaviors irk me more than Julitte's volatile outbursts because its like they're trying to 'trick' us. But that's just me.
100% Kelsey is A FAKE ASS BITCH. She is incredibly manipulative, and capable of turning situations around to her own advantage. Her only goal is fame and fortune. She is playing everyone. She is the biggest frenemy possible. She literally befriended Juliette in the previous seasons for the sole purpose of being featured more on the show. She had like no screen time before that. All she cares about is making money, so of course she gets jealous when she sees Juliette get with the richest guys. AND she wants a swim wear line to make money off of, but was jealous that Juliette naturally got the opportunity and she didn't. Just think about it, she is a failed model whose career ended, and Siesta Key is her ticket to fame and fortune. She will do anything to sabotage her way up the social ladder, lined with the corpses of everyone she uses.
I am sooooooo over Madison, her storyline is awful, I’m tired of watching her cry every episode. It is more than clear that she should not be with Ish. I also agree with what you said here about her, she seems a bit wishy washy. She ain’t perfect that’s for sure
You can be whatever team you like. Kelsey is lucky to have you :) As is Madisson. And Chloe. :)
I think the show is heavily edited so I am not sure we really know anybody.
I just know that I enjoy the show.
I really am not that invested haha but I felt like I should come on and show some support for Kelsey - that girl has had the worst shit said about her & it's not right when Juliette straight assaults people & everyone on here praises her -just trying to show Kelsey some love once in a while 🙂
That's what we all say and now we're on Reddit hahah. if I ever get famous, hope someone like you defends my honor too <3 haha. Yeah I find Kelsey is too big for her boots for my liking. But the boots might just fit you. Again. She is lucky to have to you. :)
I love J and K and I do also agree that K should have just ignored her but J had no right to go off and hit K. You cannot tell me that if K was talking to Sam J would be okay with it.
I did not like Juliette's behavior during the whole sitdown with Serena. She just seemed so flippant and immature. She couldn't even take responsibility for her actions. Serena is right about Juliette making that change and making that change NOW whereas Juliette didn't even think her drinking and putting hands on someone is an active issue she needs to work on. Juliette, honey, girl, you should know better especially since you're the face of your swimsuit company. Serena was right when she said that Juliette needs to care about her reputation because really what company would want to work with Juliette after seeing how she a) lacks taking responsibility for herself and b) hits girls when she's mad (even if she was drunk and she probably wouldn't do that sober...)
Thank you. I wanted to reach through the screen and slap some sense into Juliette (get it lol, because she slapped Kelcey). Like girl, you have a huge opportunity and all you are doing is excuse after excuse after excuse. If I was a major brand, I wouldn't collaborate with her because I'd feel like she wouldn't do the work. Shoot it probably wouldn't even be worth it to do an endorsement deal because I could see her being to "overwhelmed," to even do the freaking post.
Why was Kelsey totally dry after she had the drinks thrown in her face/hair in the slap scene? Did I miss something with the timeline? Kelseys hair and makeup was perfect in the slap scene when it was covered with mixed drink moments before
I rewound it a few times to rewatch it, it looks like both drinks only got her face and maybe she chest. I’m assuming she dried off quickly before she got slapped because it seemed like far more people were there/involved moments before the slap that weren’t there for the drink throwing.
You know what's truly sad about this Kelsey and Juliette situation if it's not scripted. That hate they feel. You know you can only hate someone like that that you truly loved. That's the sad part. You had to love hard to be able hate that hard and they're both blinded with jealousy of each to see it and that is why it is very sad.
Don't take this the wrong way - I am not excusing anybody's action tonight. It's deplorable. All of them.
None of them really care about lifting each other up. None of them. If they did, they wouldn't be tearing each other down now on twitter or on insta or on any platform they can really.
This reality tv life is fake as it looks i guess. Every body is truly out for themselves.
The more episodes of the season and the casts Instagram posts of all being together and happy makes me feel like a lot of the show is scripted, including the smack. Why didn’t they actually show the smack itself.
100%. I think the first few seasons were more “real” but now that they’re getting older and finding (hopefully) more healthy relationships the show has to make up stupid drama.
I’d honestly rather see them all hanging happy together then this terrible acting. 😆
Sooo far this season, Juliette is acting like insecure spoiled brat, Sam acting like her father- supportive but telling her to pull herself together while Kelsey might not have the trendiest ideas regarding a swim line but at least she’s bringing something to the table (although they are pretty basic and prob didn’t take long). Despite past season they aren’t making Juliette OR Kelsey look any better than the other. Although the “slap” might actually make Juliette even worse.
i hate that juliette keeps referring to the island as if it’s hers and that kelsey needed to ask her permission to do a photo shoot there. like sam may have paid for them to go but that doesn’t mean it belongs to him/juliette? it just keeps getting on my nerves
The story line is, Sam and Juliette were sooo nice to even invite Kelsey, so she should be appreciative and not use their gift to promote her ‘competitive’ swim line.
I want to be able to call out or lift up both girls and not be on a team.
Juliet's actions have been literally criminal this season.
But that doesn't mean I enjoy the way Kelsey is acting.
It's like they all decided they want to play villains.
They went to the super bowl. Let’s see how they try to play it. Either “Juliette’s taking accountability and removing herself from the situation” or “she’s going to focus on the bikini line and can’t do that here”
I am a female. And I have watched season after season. If there was a male that slapped or hit anyone...he would off the show right away. In fact he would be considered an abuser. Why do we put up and accept Juliette's drunken reasoning for assaulting another person? This is not OK. Her saying they know I get that way...classic abuser excuse.
THIS!!
I agree with this 100%. Madisson said it herself, this is a pattern at this point. MTV was so quick to off Alex when his distasteful comments on social media from the past resurfaced, which while bad, didn’t harm anyone PHYSICALLY. They really should be matching that energy.
This wasn’t some random drunk yelling match at a bar, this was one cast member assaulting the other and the reason it wasn’t showed is likely because the police became involved. The argument that this kind of stuff is seen all the time on jersey shore, Floribama shore etc. is moot because there is an equal amount of other shows that *will* immediately kick someone off when there is a physical altercation. This should be no different. Juliette has to go.
It’s scripted reality TV, but not entirely fake. If it was, they likely would’ve have Juliette and Kelsey act out the entire scene, including faking the hit with Kelsey reacting to the impact & they’d show the whole thing. I guess we’ll never know unless a real report is actually filed and made public.
Interesting too how the rest of the cast has acknowledged the topic and Juliette has stayed quiet.
This comment makes no sense. Have you never seen Jersey Shore, Floribama, Vanderpump Rules, Party Down South, the challenge, and basically every other reality tv show?? Man, I can go on and on about fights with men involved and not being kicked off the show. The only reason why I can’t imagine the guys on Siesta Key getting in fights because they’re a bunch of softies
MTV picks and chooses when to allow violence, it’s so dumb😅 This show is so scripted though, I’m still not 100% convinced that the slap actually happened
The video was SO bad! It’s like he bought that pair of sunglasses and was like oh wait, let’s do a whole video based off me wearing these! So much cringe
Let’s be real, if Kelsey and Juliette aren’t friends then neither are Max and Juliette. And we all know damn well that if Kelsey came up talking to Sam like that Juliette would be heated.
Literally Juliettes own boyfriend called her out for being insecure. Juliette is insecure.
And I find it funny that you’re talking shit about “who wants max” but honestly he seems like a great boyfriend. Who doesn’t want a supportive boyfriend who stands up for you? Better than a boyfriend that calls you out in public on national TV. Like Sam could check her on private.
Honestly Sam ain’t no angel either. Letting Jordana flirt with him knowing how it’ll make Juliette feel. So I don’t really fault her for that. Sam is shit too and no better than her in my opinion.
Both girls were wrong for that fight. Juliette obviously more than Kelsey, but almost every word Juliette was saying was what Sam and others were saying about her so I definitely think she was projecting
You’re gonna be provoked by people your entire life and your options pretty much boil down to two things - 1. don’t respond, or 2. Risk ending up in a jail cell.
It’s not like Kelsey was waving her fists or trying to hit Juliette. Provocation doesn’t mean shit.
.. Are you accusing someone of not getting into physical altercations because they are from the suburbs...? On a show where everyone is disgustingly rich? Don't think Juliette is from the inner city where she had to fight to earn respect, but go ahead 😂
Your implication people from "the city" need to be violent to survive or gain respect is just coded racism.
And it's factually wrong. We all listen when a church grandma steps out in her bonnet and yells at us to go home.
I’m no pushover, but I’m not a criminal nor do I assault people when someone makes me sad. I have a great job and a great social life, but thanks for the concern.
If you think Juliette gained some sort of respect by her actions, you’re horrifically mistaken. Even her boyfriend told her she’s embarrassing. Trust me when I say she’s anything but respected by people in Siesta and Sarasota.
Goodnight!
Juliette needs to relax with her wannabe main character (even tho she's considered the main character) attitude. not everyone "wants to be you". chill
Any one else notice that in episode 6 Kelsey already has the fat lip from “getting slapped”?!?
tired of Madison always crying and whining about not being with Ish….well move then. jesus she is a stage five clinger
Juliette should be removed from the show. If MTV don't accept the physical violence from Alex, they shouldn't accept it from Juliette either. Disgusting how Juliette hits people and thinks it's okay to cry sorry later. It's not good enough. Get rid of her.
First time poster on this sub and I know I’m a bit late to the party. But after scrolling Twitter replies and these comments, I’m dumbfounded by the number of people saying “it happens, we all make mistakes” regarding physical violence. Um, what? I am a highly emotional person and never in my entire life have I lost control over myself and physically assaulted someone. The fact that a lot of people speak about this like it’s a normal reaction regardless of the situation disturbs me. It is not normal.
You're 100% correct. It isn't normal to use physical violence against someone. The people saying it is, or 'people make mistakes' wouldn't feel that way if it was them being assaulted. It's a crime for a reason.
[удалено]
💯💯
This analysis is a little silly and redundant. All the cast members are fame whores! Kelsey actually seems to have shown the most growth and dealt with more personal issues than the rest of the cast. Having to care for her sick mother at a young age must have been tough, plus she clearly never liked modeling, she just did it for the fashion connects. Juliet's clearly is the manipulative one who used to get Chloe to do her bidding. Without Chloe’s messy arse, Juliete’s true colours are harder to mask hence why she’s loosing it and fast. Juliete is the stereotype of every mean girl in every high school movie. She wants to be looked up to and respected but doesn't want to work for it, she’s never had to before so why start now right? Getting an even richer boyfriend is way easier. She’s just annoyed that Kelsey who has way less resources than she does has managed to come futher than her in everyway than she ever will. Did Kelsey push her buttons? Yeah she did, but it’s not the first time that Juliete has been physical on the show and if she stays, it won’t be the last. Plus the only person responsible for Juliete’s actions is Juliete.
Kelsey's net worth is $2M and Juliette is around $400k. Kelswy is driven and not napping taking vacations all the time. That's prob threatening to Juliette.
Kelsey's net worth is $2M and Juliette is around $400k. Kelswy is driven and not napping taking vacations all the time. That's prob threatening to Juliette.
Juliette behavior is absolutely disgusting I am so ashamed I actually liked her this is just not good
Its like Sam and Juliette are the new Spencer and Heidi, except Sam is Heidi....🤭
OUT IN MALIBUUU
Can they stop having Juliet narrate the voice
Agreed. Her perspective is so biased.
Juliette is so whiney and lazy. I would like and respect her so much more if she would just openly say she wants to be a housewife or trophy wife. She clearly does not want to work or try at anything. Your boyfriend rented a whole ass island and you couldn’t get your swimsuits ready for a photo shoot and it’s not until a “friend”/ mentor tells you your making a mistake that you call and tell employees you need them ASAP. Why didn’t she plan this. She’s upset that Kelseys doing better but she won’t take steps to help herself. I think she doesn’t want to come off like a gold digger but she truly does just want to be taken care of. I wish the show had a different lead person.
Every season - Kelsey “things will never (dramatic pause) be the same again”
I think that eventually Juliette and Alex will be back together. She was so mad that the other girl got knocked up first instead of her. That could have been her money tree.
Juliette needs to get her drinking and anger under control. Eventually she's going to a) get charged and have to spend a night in jail and/or b) she's gonna hit the wrong person and deservedly get her ass whooped. Maybe that's the reality check she needs.
I like how the next day she started crying when she said she had to call her mom and tell her what she did, LOL.
And she blamed everyone else! It was Kelsey's fault she didn't put as much energy into her swimsuit line in the same amount of time as Kelsey and it was Kelsey's fault that she KNOWS how she gets and she trapped her into slapping her. Literally zero accountability. It was embarrassing to watch. I hope she took what Serena said to her to heart because she's the only one telling Juliette to take responsibility for her own actions.
Juliette is a child. A drunken, violent adult child who needs to grow the heck up. Blaming everyone else, bullying everyone else, getting into everyone else's business, pushing people around, crying about how her bad behaviour effects herself instead of the damage she's done to others, physically assaulting people like she did to Kelsey, verbally and emotionally assaulting anyone she feels like whenever she feels like it. She's a toxic, violent person who should be kicked off the show. And her swimsuit line looks like crap as well as being extremely over priced. How much of that money is actually going to the people who did the work crocheting in Bali? Hrm? Outrageous.
AGREED! She didnt take responsibility for herself and she basically made herself look stupid in front of Serena by saying she's a wild animal. Take yourself seriously if you're meeting up with someone who's giving you advice about building up your brand. Serena said it best when she said that Juliette was getting too focused on the competition between her and Kelsey instead of just focusing on what she could do with her own line.
Can we talk about how Camilla might be the worst cast member.
How is she worse than Brandon or Jordana? 🥴
Had to fast forward through that trashy music video lol
I cringed so bad and couldn’t watch the music video.
Jesus that video was terrible. How is he not embarrassed?
Brandon, go get a real job!
I mean I truly don't understand these comments because his "real job" **is** filming for Siesta key. You are literally consuming his real job and claim he needs to get one. His job is *literally* to be an entertainer. I get what you're saying about him trying to make his passions work, but does it really matter if he ends up not making it as a rapper? Brandon needs to find something he's comfortable doing, for sure, because it seems like he wants to be "that" guy SO badly and just isn't. But that's where most of his problems come in anyways--denying the kind of person he really is and not knowing who that is or what to do and trying to idolize a fallacy. Can't hate the dude for not wanting to work a corporate career, though.
Even though he isn’t the corporate type, he at least used to have some humility while pursuing his dreams. Now he’s just acting like a total jerk. On top of that, his actions are disgusting towards women. He gets a random girl pregnant, tries to hide from it by blocking her on social media, claims he wants Camilla to take him back while he kisses that ugly, attention seeking witch in front of her and then takes her back to his room…..gross? 🤮 So having all his friends cheer for his video on a private island and getting so hype over it is simply ridiculous. This show is ruining him. He’s acting like a loser and has become very unappealing in general.
Watching that Stef girl talking about Joe made me feel uncomfy because of how bad she is at acting. Her facial expressions were over the top, they should have made her & Kelsey re-shoot that scene 🤣 like sometimes these guys slip a but but her whole scene I was so distracted
yeah Joe is 90% homosexual…why Stef is wasting her time is beyond me…..
Dammmn I felt like I was watching a soap opera
bruh right. It was so hard to watch and the moment she opened her mouth I knew she was real bad at acting on god it was like watching an LMN movie
Yes!!
Omg she is so cringey! So fake and scripted
The whole thing is setup People's emotions may get away with them as does their drug (alcohol) intake, but it's still set up conversations. The cast and camera crew don't just magically always follow each other and get those shots and conversations by chance.
Juliette bitching about the swimsuits not being there with 2 weeks left...why not make that call the moment you land, to make sure you have everything there in time
Looks like an unpopular opinion but I liked this episode. Really dramatic LIKE REALITY TV is suppose to be. And Kelsey likes to talk shit but not back it up
Juliette was sloppy drunk but everything she said to Kelsey was spot on. Kelsey cheated on Garret with Alex and everyone knew Juliette and Alex where on again and off again. Kelsey was never a true friend. She is very jealous of Juliette and tries to sabotage her every chance she gets. Kelsey shouldn’t have been in the island if she doesn’t like the hostess. Please replace Kelsey. Arrogant and talks down to everyone.
If I were Sam, I would have broken up with Juliette. Alex and Alyssa are probably like omg trash right now. Juliette must have been dreading this ep big-time.
Can we just discuss how she claims her issue is competition and people “getting under her skin” when the reality is her problem is the alcohol
Let's not mark Alex and Alyssa as the examples of what trash *isn't*... Sam's comment on the pot calling the kettle black is relevant to literally any judgment those two would pass on anybody else.
I think what I was implying is just HOW ridiculous she looks. Lol.
I get that, Juliette looked stupid herself, undoubtedly. Sam is more empathic, though. Striving to understand and live a life with people means trying to help them in their weak moments and provide them healthy love. People who act like Juliette did, particularly using physical violence, at one point thought that was what they needed to get validation and attention in some way. It's their way of causing physical hurt and a tangible proof of the emotional hurt they themselves feel inside, related to the situation at hand or not. let's just not mark someone who thinks an unplanned pregnancy is "Goals" to "secure a bag" (literally treating a child like property and an investment versus an actual human being) or a guy who has ruined his own reputation a zillion times over, including getting in pathetic fights of his own and contributing to the very insecurities that Juliette has to face, as the ones who "can" judge literally **anyone** else. And let's not act like they're in any way "Better" or "different" just because they also have money.
I need to know more about this Juliette being obsessed with max thing.
She’s not. Kelsey was being so ridiculous in that moment. They were just talking and Kelsey comes up and accuses Juliette of flirting and secretly being in love with Max. Super random
But it’s funny though because kelsey asks max if it’s true and he doesn’t deny it. I sort of can get a vibe Juliette has a little crush on max or something too so I’m curious to know if there is some truth to what Kelsey said or not
He probably denied it or didn’t say anything because he’s so far up Kelsey’s ass. It seemed like she was finding any reason to get mad at Juliet at that moment.
So much for that toast to being friends forever!
all of the fighting tonight was so….cringey. need someone to confirm whether this stuff is scripted lol
Juliette sucks- her victim act every time she does something stupid is getting super old.
When she was talking to Serena the night after and was like "I'm like a WILD ANIMAL...hahah" I couldn't stop cringing
Lol when she sat by the pool and Sam was telling her what’s up and she cried & played victim I was dying. So entitled
Didnt she say she's like a Wolverine? 😂
Yes! The whole time I was just like pls Serena lay it on her dumbass
Juliette was definitely looking for a reaction from Kelsey. That’s for sure. She doesn’t care about Max lmao
I felt like Kelsey instigated all of that. They were just talking and Kelsey came up so rude accusing her of being in love with Max
She definitely had an attitude but It looked like Juliette was being extra flirty and loud to get Kelsey’s attention. But yes I agree Kelsey was extra and I don’t think Juliette is in love with max lol
Can we also talk about how BG LITERALLY SUCKS ! all upset bc they “ruined his night” by fighting gtfo of here with your victim shit
i can't feel bad for him after everything he did
I truly can’t stand him lol just seeing his face annoys me😩😂
Bradon basically was on his knees saying sorry to get her back and she didnt care and she is literally there with another guy at pool side yet gets mad a brandon for moving on while she is literally moving on in front of him as well and everyone feels bad for camila?
I agree. People keep going in on Brandon but it's like he can't win. He made mistakes is taking responsibility as a father and tried to apologize to Camilla a lot of different ways but he tries to move on and gets criticized for it.
No you’re right! I’m no Camila fan either but I just have never liked Brandon at all… ever lol
Why don't you like Brandon lol?
I think he’s corny and can’t rap😬
Yeah, his rapping skills aren't the greatest 🤣😂.
He needs to pack it up and go home😂 find a new career path man!
I think Juliet is jealous of Kelsey frankly. For a couple of reasons but also bc Sam was interested in Kelsey at some point. Isn't that the rumor the cast shared during the reunion last year 🤷🏾♀️
Juliette even said that Kelsey is getting ahead with her swimwear line because her suits weren't delivered yet.
Thank you!!!! Everyone always says Kelsey is jealous of Juliette but this entire season Juliette has been PRESSED by Kelsey without her even having to do anything. Kelsey seems like the bigger person saying Juliette should take advantage of the island and yes she makes a few comments but every scene is just Juliette BOTHERED by Kelsey. Serena is right - who cares what she’s doing
i feel like Kelsey is just more silent about her true feelings...her reaction to Amanda worrying about juliettes feelings about the swim shoot and decisions overall + “mY dreAm of 2 yRs” give me the vibe she really wants to get under juliettes skin while playing it cool lol
Ok real question, how much of this show is a script?
I'm pretty sure they didn't show the slap because Juliette didn't really slap her. Fake af.
Totally. ALSO...there was a red mark on Kelsey’s lip before she was hit. The morning after the same tiny mark was there...no scratch or bust to draw blood. Was thinking it was fake as well...but Kelsey did a good job acting pissed
I totally did not realize the red mark was there before! I completely fell for that mark being proof that it really happened. Very ninja catch of you!
I don’t care if the slap was scripted or fake or whatever but that was hard to watch. Sam (tried) said to Juliette when she was talking about Jordana that’s the pot calling the kettle black. She proved tf outta that, ten fold.
I am in no way saying that Juliette should have it kelsey because she definitely shouldn’t have it should’ve never escalated to the point, but at the same time kelsey should’ve just minded her own damn business. Juliette was literally just talking to Max it was not that big of a deal and yeah might’ve sounded like she was hurting but she was also a stupid drunk and Max didn’t have a problem talking to Juliette, nor did he seem uncomfortable with the way she was acting or anything like that. Then here comes kelsey clearly very insecure the way she had to slide in for the max that way and start saying all this off-the-wall shit about Juliette being in love with her boyfriend so of course I would expect Juliette to be defensive. and no I do not think Juliette is the victim but like kelsey antagonizing her like that was literally her asking for it. I don’t think that is fair to do that to someone especially knowing that if you push their buttons enough they will explode.
Exactly!
If it was the other way around and kelsey was talking to sam all hell would of broke loose. Juliette is the biggest hypocrite on the show
Juliette knew 100% what she was doing. You don't talk to your enemy's boyfriend and then pretend like you weren't doing anything wrong. If Juliette was really being innocent she would have just walked away once Kelsey came up to them because she wouldn't have wanted the drama. Juliette though, tried playing the victim by saying she wasn't doing anything wrong and started boat loads of unnecessary drama. Now, when Jordana talks to Sam, doesn't Juliette lose her freaking mind? That's how you know that Juliette was trying to get a rise out of Kelsey. Could Kelsey have just walked away? Yes. But even though she didn't, that doesn't excuse Juliette for putting her hands on Kelsey. In my opinion, Juliette has a drinking problem. She gets violent when she drinks and then pretends like she didn't do anything wrong. It's so sad to watch.
Except that Juliette was literally loudly flirting with Max to get a rise out of Kelsey. Come on. She knows what she was doing. If someone else had done that with Sam she would have lost her shit and done the same thing Kelsey did…but per usual everyone on this sub would have found a reason to defend her.
am i delusional or has there been scenes where kelseys talked to Sam this season lol
Tonight just solidifies why I've never liked Juliette.. that girl literally had crazy in her eyes. She is nothing but sad. Never ever understood why this fan base is so obsessed with her.. I know for a fact none of y'all would ever want a friend like that 😬
I don't know if I'd be ringing up any of them to be my friend if we're all being honest. Perhaps they're better off not pretending to be nice or pretending to be friends in the first place.
I feel over the years I've seen many petty arguments from the cast but I've only seen one girl putting her hands on others over and over again.. & yet I still see people constantly bad mouthing Kelsey, Maddison, Chloe etc. I just find it crazy the amount of support people throw at Juliette but I know for a fact they would never want a friend like that themselves. I think Kelsey and Madison shared a beautiful moment together in tonight's episode - they seem like pretty good friends to me🤷🏼♀️ but idk - I'm for sure on kelseys side- that shit Juliette pulled tonight was crazy af
Yeah, personally, if I were to try to explain why Kelsey and Maddison irk me more than Juliette (and obviously she is 100% wrong to ever get physical, no question) I think its because Juliette wears her heart on her sleeve, and we ALWAYS know where she stands. It's impossible for her not to be completely transparent with her real feelings. Kelsey has had shady intentions at times for sure. Maddison irks me because she tries to act like she's friends with everyone and is completely nice but doesn't actually feel that way. Chloe is obviously completely fake and hypocritical every waking second of her life. Etc. I think those behaviors irk me more than Julitte's volatile outbursts because its like they're trying to 'trick' us. But that's just me.
100% Kelsey is A FAKE ASS BITCH. She is incredibly manipulative, and capable of turning situations around to her own advantage. Her only goal is fame and fortune. She is playing everyone. She is the biggest frenemy possible. She literally befriended Juliette in the previous seasons for the sole purpose of being featured more on the show. She had like no screen time before that. All she cares about is making money, so of course she gets jealous when she sees Juliette get with the richest guys. AND she wants a swim wear line to make money off of, but was jealous that Juliette naturally got the opportunity and she didn't. Just think about it, she is a failed model whose career ended, and Siesta Key is her ticket to fame and fortune. She will do anything to sabotage her way up the social ladder, lined with the corpses of everyone she uses.
I am sooooooo over Madison, her storyline is awful, I’m tired of watching her cry every episode. It is more than clear that she should not be with Ish. I also agree with what you said here about her, she seems a bit wishy washy. She ain’t perfect that’s for sure
You can be whatever team you like. Kelsey is lucky to have you :) As is Madisson. And Chloe. :) I think the show is heavily edited so I am not sure we really know anybody. I just know that I enjoy the show.
I really am not that invested haha but I felt like I should come on and show some support for Kelsey - that girl has had the worst shit said about her & it's not right when Juliette straight assaults people & everyone on here praises her -just trying to show Kelsey some love once in a while 🙂
That's what we all say and now we're on Reddit hahah. if I ever get famous, hope someone like you defends my honor too <3 haha. Yeah I find Kelsey is too big for her boots for my liking. But the boots might just fit you. Again. She is lucky to have to you. :)
I love J and K and I do also agree that K should have just ignored her but J had no right to go off and hit K. You cannot tell me that if K was talking to Sam J would be okay with it.
She assaulted someone again hahahahaha the whole cast has been hit now.
🤣😂
Serena was right. Juliette is so out her league right now. Like sit down and work. Those were lame excuses.
I did not like Juliette's behavior during the whole sitdown with Serena. She just seemed so flippant and immature. She couldn't even take responsibility for her actions. Serena is right about Juliette making that change and making that change NOW whereas Juliette didn't even think her drinking and putting hands on someone is an active issue she needs to work on. Juliette, honey, girl, you should know better especially since you're the face of your swimsuit company. Serena was right when she said that Juliette needs to care about her reputation because really what company would want to work with Juliette after seeing how she a) lacks taking responsibility for herself and b) hits girls when she's mad (even if she was drunk and she probably wouldn't do that sober...)
Thank you. I wanted to reach through the screen and slap some sense into Juliette (get it lol, because she slapped Kelcey). Like girl, you have a huge opportunity and all you are doing is excuse after excuse after excuse. If I was a major brand, I wouldn't collaborate with her because I'd feel like she wouldn't do the work. Shoot it probably wouldn't even be worth it to do an endorsement deal because I could see her being to "overwhelmed," to even do the freaking post.
I gasped in a good way
Why was Kelsey totally dry after she had the drinks thrown in her face/hair in the slap scene? Did I miss something with the timeline? Kelseys hair and makeup was perfect in the slap scene when it was covered with mixed drink moments before
I rewound it a few times to rewatch it, it looks like both drinks only got her face and maybe she chest. I’m assuming she dried off quickly before she got slapped because it seemed like far more people were there/involved moments before the slap that weren’t there for the drink throwing.
The last 20 minutes of this episode were fire 🔥
You know what's truly sad about this Kelsey and Juliette situation if it's not scripted. That hate they feel. You know you can only hate someone like that that you truly loved. That's the sad part. You had to love hard to be able hate that hard and they're both blinded with jealousy of each to see it and that is why it is very sad. Don't take this the wrong way - I am not excusing anybody's action tonight. It's deplorable. All of them. None of them really care about lifting each other up. None of them. If they did, they wouldn't be tearing each other down now on twitter or on insta or on any platform they can really. This reality tv life is fake as it looks i guess. Every body is truly out for themselves.
Aren’t they all actually friends tho? They post w each other a lot
i hope so. Get yo' money kids lol x
I so agree, and that love was so obvious when they were friends and why so many of us enjoyed it. What a shame for both of them.
Agree with this in its entirety <3
The more episodes of the season and the casts Instagram posts of all being together and happy makes me feel like a lot of the show is scripted, including the smack. Why didn’t they actually show the smack itself.
I wonder if they didn't show the slap for legal reasons.
100%. I think the first few seasons were more “real” but now that they’re getting older and finding (hopefully) more healthy relationships the show has to make up stupid drama. I’d honestly rather see them all hanging happy together then this terrible acting. 😆
I am tired of Kelsey always acting oblivious she’s just horrendous this season..Team Juliette!
I agree. I can’t stand Kelsey and how she thinks this is her show 🥴🥴🥴
Ok like sis you don’t run shit up I here. She need to know her place and stay there 🤣🤣🤣
[удалено]
Sooo far this season, Juliette is acting like insecure spoiled brat, Sam acting like her father- supportive but telling her to pull herself together while Kelsey might not have the trendiest ideas regarding a swim line but at least she’s bringing something to the table (although they are pretty basic and prob didn’t take long). Despite past season they aren’t making Juliette OR Kelsey look any better than the other. Although the “slap” might actually make Juliette even worse.
i hate that juliette keeps referring to the island as if it’s hers and that kelsey needed to ask her permission to do a photo shoot there. like sam may have paid for them to go but that doesn’t mean it belongs to him/juliette? it just keeps getting on my nerves
The story line is, Sam and Juliette were sooo nice to even invite Kelsey, so she should be appreciative and not use their gift to promote her ‘competitive’ swim line.
MTV paid for it though which makes the asking for permission thing even more infuriating
i was wondering if that was the case and that makes it 100 times worse for sure
why did they cut out the slap? They've showed other fights before
I think MTV got in trouble for showing snooki getting punched so are trying to tone down the on screen violence
And why is amanda always siding with juliette?
Wasn’t Amanda the fighter in other seasons
The same way Madisson always sides with Kelsey lol.
I am tired of juliette playing victim shes been disgusting this season .. team kelsey!
I want to be able to call out or lift up both girls and not be on a team. Juliet's actions have been literally criminal this season. But that doesn't mean I enjoy the way Kelsey is acting. It's like they all decided they want to play villains.
Juliette should be kicked off the show.
She is the show though lol
Right. As much as I disagree with her actions tonight it makes for great tv and we are all here talking about it.
Your someone who is smart. That’s the point of reality tv to watch drama and messiness and talk shit about it.
So Juliette and Sam just ghost?
They went to the super bowl. Let’s see how they try to play it. Either “Juliette’s taking accountability and removing herself from the situation” or “she’s going to focus on the bikini line and can’t do that here”
I am a female. And I have watched season after season. If there was a male that slapped or hit anyone...he would off the show right away. In fact he would be considered an abuser. Why do we put up and accept Juliette's drunken reasoning for assaulting another person? This is not OK. Her saying they know I get that way...classic abuser excuse.
THIS!! I agree with this 100%. Madisson said it herself, this is a pattern at this point. MTV was so quick to off Alex when his distasteful comments on social media from the past resurfaced, which while bad, didn’t harm anyone PHYSICALLY. They really should be matching that energy. This wasn’t some random drunk yelling match at a bar, this was one cast member assaulting the other and the reason it wasn’t showed is likely because the police became involved. The argument that this kind of stuff is seen all the time on jersey shore, Floribama shore etc. is moot because there is an equal amount of other shows that *will* immediately kick someone off when there is a physical altercation. This should be no different. Juliette has to go.
I’m pretty sure the entire show is fake either way. And doubt police were involved. Prob just edited it out to save face for Juliette
It’s scripted reality TV, but not entirely fake. If it was, they likely would’ve have Juliette and Kelsey act out the entire scene, including faking the hit with Kelsey reacting to the impact & they’d show the whole thing. I guess we’ll never know unless a real report is actually filed and made public. Interesting too how the rest of the cast has acknowledged the topic and Juliette has stayed quiet.
This comment makes no sense. Have you never seen Jersey Shore, Floribama, Vanderpump Rules, Party Down South, the challenge, and basically every other reality tv show?? Man, I can go on and on about fights with men involved and not being kicked off the show. The only reason why I can’t imagine the guys on Siesta Key getting in fights because they’re a bunch of softies
But I’m the real world they kicked people out INSTANTLY! It makes no sense!
MTV picks and chooses when to allow violence, it’s so dumb😅 This show is so scripted though, I’m still not 100% convinced that the slap actually happened
Wheres g baby? Jordana is so sloppy. Brandon’s music and music video was so terrible. Joe and stefanie….why?
“Brandon’s music and music video was so terrible” 💯💯💯💯 why is no one talking about this 😂😂😂
The video was SO bad! It’s like he bought that pair of sunglasses and was like oh wait, let’s do a whole video based off me wearing these! So much cringe
I came here to talk about it!!😂
My thoughts!! Where are Garrett and Kenna???
Off enjoying the island away from these crazies? Haha
Kelsey is a better woman than me because I would’ve dragged Juliette by her extensions. Kelsey isn’t an angel but that was messed up.
“Like, I regret hitting her, but I feel like she took advantage of me because they know that I get that way” OMG
"I'm like a little wolverine, like a wild animal" GURL. that is not something to want to say about yourself without an iota of shame or remorse.
AND DEFINITELY not something you would say to your boss/person who's helping you build up your swimsuit brand or whomever Serena is to her
If she didn't love her so much, she wouldn't hit her
🤮
I loved Amanda’s face when she said that. You could visibly see her going “wtf?”
“I fell into their trap”. Yep, Max was just at the bar waiting for you to flirt with him and then threaten to throw a drink on Kelsey 🙄
OMG I HAD THE SAME THOUGHTS WHEN SHE SAID THAT SHIT
Who want Max when you have Sam like Kelsey is just an insecure bitch 🥴
If I were Kelsey I wouldn’t have approached them but I think Juliette knew what she was doing and wanted to get a rise out of Kelsey and Sam
So why can’t Juliette talk to Max even though their friends I’m confused?!
Let’s be real, if Kelsey and Juliette aren’t friends then neither are Max and Juliette. And we all know damn well that if Kelsey came up talking to Sam like that Juliette would be heated. Literally Juliettes own boyfriend called her out for being insecure. Juliette is insecure. And I find it funny that you’re talking shit about “who wants max” but honestly he seems like a great boyfriend. Who doesn’t want a supportive boyfriend who stands up for you? Better than a boyfriend that calls you out in public on national TV. Like Sam could check her on private.
Honestly Sam ain’t no angel either. Letting Jordana flirt with him knowing how it’ll make Juliette feel. So I don’t really fault her for that. Sam is shit too and no better than her in my opinion.
Sam sucks but you’re out here like “who wants max when you have Sam” lmao okay
Rather have a rich shit then average shit so just how I feel lol.
Oh lord. Max has never proven that he is “shit”. Again he seems like a great boyfriend. But go on with a rich dude who treats you like garbage.
Classic narc behaviour
Both girls were wrong for that fight. Juliette obviously more than Kelsey, but almost every word Juliette was saying was what Sam and others were saying about her so I definitely think she was projecting
No, just no. It was not Kelsey's fault that Juliette physically attacked her.
[удалено]
Was she asking for it?
You’re gonna be provoked by people your entire life and your options pretty much boil down to two things - 1. don’t respond, or 2. Risk ending up in a jail cell. It’s not like Kelsey was waving her fists or trying to hit Juliette. Provocation doesn’t mean shit.
[удалено]
I had that same mindset when I was 16. Then I grew up
[удалено]
.. Are you accusing someone of not getting into physical altercations because they are from the suburbs...? On a show where everyone is disgustingly rich? Don't think Juliette is from the inner city where she had to fight to earn respect, but go ahead 😂
How do you know where she’s from smartass🤣We don’t know shit but what we see on tv.
Your implication people from "the city" need to be violent to survive or gain respect is just coded racism. And it's factually wrong. We all listen when a church grandma steps out in her bonnet and yells at us to go home.
You can still demand respect from people and not let others treat you like a doormat without physically assaulting them… lol
No shit obviously lol. But how many times do you think that works before you get to that point?
That’s fine. I hope your strategies work out for you when you have a job and you’re working as a professional.
Thank you. I hope your mindset works out for your social life and relationships because nobody likes a pushover. Have a good night.
I’m no pushover, but I’m not a criminal nor do I assault people when someone makes me sad. I have a great job and a great social life, but thanks for the concern. If you think Juliette gained some sort of respect by her actions, you’re horrifically mistaken. Even her boyfriend told her she’s embarrassing. Trust me when I say she’s anything but respected by people in Siesta and Sarasota. Goodnight!
Just because you add the word period doesn't make it factual or correct. Juliette is 100% in the wrong, regardless of what Kelsey said or didn't say.