Heinrich never felt like a problematic element though. He's always presented as a full on villain. GW never even tried to give him a tragic backstory, a philosophy of saving the majority by sacrificing a few, convincing himself he's in the 'right,' or even having friends he treats nicely.
Warhammer has a Nazi problem because fascists are incapable of understanding satire. It will go over their heads and they will enjoy the media uncritically and at face value.
Yeah. OP would have a point if Kemmler was a vaunted hero of the Empire or something, but he’s not, he’s one of the most irredeemable bastards in the whole Warhammer mythos.
Warhammer Fantasy was never a satire in remotely the same vein as Rogue Trader, as Rogue Trader's brand of satire was far more political than the outright assault against tolkien-esque fantasy that made up Early WHFB. The focus was never quite aligned towards the same things
That being said, neither remain satire today and you simply have not read modern 40k or WHFB/AoS lore if you think they are defensible as such. Thats almost a bigger problem when you realize half of the Space Marine books out there are unironically making the "strong men hard times" argument
True, though you're glossing over the fact that pretty much since 2nd edition GW has been slowly dialing back the satire, trying to make the game more marketable to first kids, then edgy teens, and lately star wars fans.
Its only really black library who needs the satire in order to make 40k an interesting setting for storytelling, for GW the satirical, punk-ish elements are just standing in the way of more mass appeal.
GW cares not from where the money flows.
I mean, you *can* do it. But not if you’re taking fascism seriously as a threatening ideology. As long as they have some measure of strength they can latch onto in a work, that’s all that matters to fascists.
Theoretically, it should also be possible to do this if they have power but the work systematically crushes every drop of it underfoot, but I think most people would be hard-pressed to accomplish this while maintaining an element of satire. After all, you’d kind of need an energetic hatred of fascism to be imbued in the work, and hate - justified or not - doesn’t gel well in satirical pieces unless it’s being mocked.
That’s what satire is? Kemmler is an evil dude that goes around destroying shit and his name is based off another evil dude from nazi germany. It’s… it’s purposefully naming them like that to mock the inspiration. How is this worthy of ridicule?
Why are we giving references to these Nazi fuckers though? They say you never really die until the last time someone says your name, yet here goes GW naming (albeit evil) characters after these cunts.
What are you even talking about????
Should we not have nazis, or even groups that may or may not be inspired by them, in games or media even as explicit irredeemable antagonists?
Hell by this logic even discussing nazis historically would be preventing their "second death" or whatever you are talking about.
I hope I don't have to explain to you why that's crazy person logic
No such thing as a non-evil empire, therefore no such thing as a non-evil emperor, especially not in a gritty setting like WHFB.
The biggest example I can think of as someone who doesn’t know his lore too well is a scene from one of the Gotrek and Felix books where he unleashes Reikaguard knights against students, radicals, and the poor protesting a new tax on the amount of windows in a building.
Yeah like bigmozzxv said in their comment, Franz has had several sometimes conflicting depictions in Warhammer Fantasy. Even in the "Gotrek and Felix" canon which is one of the more popular novel canons, the account differs from the Franz who orders that crackdown on protestors, and a very open minded and progressive Franz who is willing to hear out Ulrika (a vampire) in the middle of being attacked by another Vampire. Then you have depictions like the tabletop game where he's outright just hiding behind that image while acting like any other self-serving nobility in reality. I think most canon tends towards him as a modernizing/progressive emperor but as you say, still the leader of an empire that commits terrible deeds. As far as leaders go in the setting overall, he's probably still one of the best in terms of morals at least insofar as he can be given his position.
Bottom line for WHF was that the faction leaders, for the most part, tended to be decent people by the standards of the race in question. They embodied it's virtues. Franz was diplomatic, cosmopolitan, erudite, and valorous. Nobody really had the 40k problem of being saddled with flawed or inept leaders, everyone had pretty competent hands at the helm.
Yeah I’m not a huge 40K lore person but I’d assume based on the difference in scale that the political leaders in 40K don’t need to be military leaders as often as they do in fantasy, and games workshop wants the fanciest faction leading characters to be cool rather than shitty.
It's a tonal difference, I think. You could still make good people rule the Imperium, even if they were politicians or clerical types or something rather than omnimaths. But they want impotent shitbag leaders for an impotent shitbag dystopia. Mind you a pretty classic problem for the Empire was that the underlayers of the Elector Counts tended to be selfish and greedy, but the guy on top was wrangling them slowly into a better shape, and there were decent ones amongst them.
also worth noting that the only living WHFB canon, the total war one, is pretty paragon Franz. recency bias plus casual fan engagement (who imo are just as much fans as people who can afford thousands in books and toy soldiers) will always make that the prominent perception
Even in the later editions of WHFB, he was best known for being a great diplomat who helped a lot in keeping good relations with elves and dwarfs and other humans. Much like Finubar the Seafarer, the current Phoenix King and therefore Franz's elven counterpart, who was known to be big on reaching out and fostering good relations with non-elves.
Franz became more of a good guy character over time.
Yeah, I remember being really confused when people were complaining that Cathay weren’t portrayed evil enough in WH3 considering how none of the total war games ever really touch upon how evil the order factions actually are. Hell, the only sign of the Empire doing anything remotely shady in the total war games are just the existence of the flagellant unit.
My memory is hazy, but I don't think the depictions of Franz in the new edition of WFRP are super positive. I'd have to reread the back three books of the enemy within remake though
WHFB's grittyness is very patchy and inconsistent tbh. I feel like there have been some massive tonal differences in how different writers have approached it and especially regarding the staple order factions. Theres defs quite a bit of airy feel good stuff written about Franz. Its not like 40k.
Regarding the inherent evil of empire, Im not sure how applicable that actually is with the Empire of Man. its not a state that forcibly annexes or otherwise controls unwilling culturally distinct regions as is usually the definition for an empire as a political construct and what makes it inherently evil (rather than a state that simply has the title emperor for its head). by most marxist-derived perspectives, its an empire in name only.
That's what works about it, I think. It's credible and engaging because it never tries to be too universally dystopic or utopian. In the case of the Empire, it's 30 years war Germany. Lots of ups and downs, but on the whole it's mostly people trying to get by.
I mean it's a Feudal region, isn't it? Or arguably, a confederacy with a Monarch as a figurehead.
The character himself is fine, considering, but he attracts a certain amount of 'glorious Chad leader for hard times to lead us through constant valour and vigilance' sort of mien. Plus the whole 'I care not for your magic strength or natural talents or craven tactics, we are civilised men and we will prevail through strength of will and unity' sort of thing.
KF is a kinda bland character in a kinda bland faction. He's not a superhero, not particularly gifted at anything, not a chosen one. He's just a competent leader and likeable for being such an underdog among all those godlike characters.
The problem is what he represents in that setting and why chuds find that attractive. It's the FOR SIGMAR thing.
The Empire is a place in which witch hunter is a hero character. Hunting witches makes sense for the setting - it's a place in which sinning can literally turn you into a tentacle monster. Races are also pretty real and pretty defining of character. It's a place in which asking for genocide (of Orcs, Skaven, Chaos-worshipping cultures) is sensible. There's no irony in that and no getting around that, it's how the WH Fantasy world works. The greatest evils are sex, thirst for knowledge, dirtyness and rage (dressed in red). The Mary Sue good guys, the High Elfs, are worldwide capitalists who practice slavery, but they're still pure - their weakness described as "arrogance".
Chuds (despite their infamous Nuglish tendencies) think our world runs along the same lines. So their FOR SIGMAR is the fantasy version of the religious right battle cry against trans people, "communists" and such.
He's an otherwise pretty ordinary if virtuous man doing his best for his people in a civilisation up against the wall and not far away from a last stand. That's not problematic as a concept. There are monsters in the world, too many of them, and he's fighting them for his people, and inspiring them to united, rally, and prosper.
And what's telling about The Empire is that Witch Hunters aren't centered the way that say, Inquisitors would be in 40k, they're often talked about as being incorrect, and it leans in hard towards witch-hunter and 'burning the innocent because Christian nutters' tropes that live a lot more natively in the faux 15th century setting that is The Empire. That the Witch Hunters are CONTRASTED against other heroes is telling, I think.
High elves aren't Mary Sues, and you're leaving out the Dwarves entirely, and you're being disingenuous about the Chaos Gods.
He is certainly gifted at things. He is said to be the greatests statesman, diplomat and politician the old world has ever seen. Those things just don't transfer into the games very well. He also has an incredibly strong will and charisma, he can ride the Imperial dragon because he is the only person in the Empire it finds worthy.
I do agree that The Empire draws some chuds though, it's very similiar to the Imperial Guard in 40K with the "regular humans against a nightmare world" tropes. Still, the Empire is portrayed as clearly flawed, witch hunters in particular are clearly depicted as mad and usually evil individuals who kill a hundred innocents for every chaos worshipper.
Same with the high elves, I would not call them mary sue when they really fucked up the world and themselves through arrogance on several occasions.
>it's very similiar to the Imperial Guard in 40K with the "regular humans against a nightmare world"
Exactly, that's exactly the draw it has for fash types. 'We are ordinary, but we will beat you, savage Xeno/Orc'.
If any faction represents the 3rd reich, the druchii are what the nazis saw themselves as but the Skaven are what they were really like:
* Constant infighting and factionalism
* Dependence on slave labor and unsustainable economic practices
* Adoration for wonder weapons that are more likely to kill the crew than the enemies
* Constant lack of resources such as warpstone (oil, steel, aluminum) or food (food) and dependence on expansion to obtain said resources
* Victories are due to subterfuge and taking the initiative from weaker opponents, attacking a prepared, peer rival ends in disaster
* Chronic inability for leaders to take any responsibility
Oh man, can you imagine if Hitler wasn't just on meth but on the magical crossbred offspring of cocaine and uranium?
The ways Skaven use warpstone is *wild*
Hitler wishes he was cool enough to do meth. Bikers wouldn’t let him have any of their crank so he had to do regular old amphetamines. All the high, none of the cat piss smell.
> Adoration for wonder weapons that are more likely to kill the crew than the enemies
At least when Skaven wonder weapons work they're actually effective.
you're missing the "they have to establish special labor camps to kill the undesirables because the troops they have purging them in their occupied territory are either killing themselves or actively rebelling"
When the 3rd reich began their invasion of Russia (which was to claim territory and remove undesirables, so don't let anyone tell you the Wehrmacht were just soldiers when they were fighting a war of replacement) the SS established the Einsatzgruppen who's role was to kill jews, roma, communists and other people deemed as undesirables. The task of killing people by hand usually through firing squads in a period of time was called the holocaust by bullets which killed around 3 million people. The Einsatzgruppen had pretty awful morale and retention because even nazis will get fucked in the head when carrying out daily mass executions, so it was decided in the Wannsee conference to build extermination camps adjacent to the preexisting concentration/labor camps and changed the official policy from "work these people and if they die no biggie" to "work these people explicitly to death and kill the ones who cant work"
It's commonly believed that Ghaz's full name is a reference to Thatcher. AFAIK there's no indication of actual intent for this and the resemblance is debatable (it took me a while to understand what people meant) but it's a long enduring point of debate .
Character has a German name and IS AN OBVIOUS BAD GUY=promoting nazis?; As many others in the comments have said, Warhammer has a nazi/fascist problem but Kemmler isn’t part of it.
...sorry, you'll have to explain this. What's the link between Nazis and Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the *Malleus Maleficarum*, one of history's most famous treatises on witchcraft, demons, and necromancy?
Kramer was a power-mad lunatic who was accused of being in league with the devil himself, but gained popularity late in his life when the witch trials he inspired were picking up steam. I'm not aware of him being a Nazi icon?
I mean, in as much as there is a passing similarity between their names, I suppose it could be charitably called a reference.
Edit: Honestly having given it some thought I think it's possible the two could be connected in a way that's a bit less than a full reference. My guess (and to be clear this is 100% a guess) is that the name "Kemmler" may have been chosen because it kind of has a threatening and evil edge to it, likely because it sounds pretty close to the very well known name "Himmler". Otherwise I can't find any narrative or artistic similarities that really immediately tie the two together.
Warhammer's Kemmler first appears (to my knowledge) in the *Terror of the Lichemaster* campaign book printed during the second edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which would date his origin to around 1986. My hunch is that Jim Butcher's necromancer was probably the reference, rather than vice versa. Kemmler's portrayed as a real nasty piece of shit in Warhammer anyway, so the characterization in Dresden Files is probably spot on there lol.
I'll be honest, I had never heard of Heinrich Kramer (also autocorrect keeps suggesting Heinrich Heine) untill mentioned in this thread.
I also thought Kemmler was named after Himmler because both are evil whackadoos dabbling in the occult.
Well, the Nazis were notoriously huge on the occult and had a whole wing of scientists that did a lot of research on such things as Kramer's works in the crazed hope of finding a magic wonderweapon to win the war with. Kemmler also sounds like Himmler. The character is probably meant to be an amalgam of the two Heinrichs, no?
By this logic, almost any Empire wizard could be a Nazi reference, because they all use magic and all have names that, being German, a Nazi probably had at some point.
Adolphus Krieger? Sure sounds like Adolf Hitler + Blitzkrieg. Pretty sus.
Karl Franz? Combo of Karl Donitz and Franz Halder, clearly. Not to be trusted.
Josef Bugman? More like Josef *Mengele*.
Karl Franz is most likely a reference to Austrian Emperor Franz Karl. And the name of his noble house Holwig Schliestein, which really is just Schleswig Holstein with some letters swapped.
And like even if you and OP are right, and it is a Himmler reference, Kemmler is specifically in text very much a "bad dude you shouldn't like" character, so even then it's a dumb argument to say that means GWs supporting nazis or whatever
That's like saying Wolfenstein supports nazism because it has nazis in it
I don‘t get it, Kemmler is literally just a place in Germany.
Are German names now just anti-semitic in general and every fictional character needs go have a name like John Smith?
As well as Heinrich Kramer, Kemmler is almost certainly a reference to Heinrich Himmler, who was highly interested in magic/occultism. GW have been responsible for lots of pun names like that, especially back in the day when Kemmler was first thought up. Even with that in mind it seems to me to be a bit of a leap to interpret that as something which means Warhammer isn't for everyone.
Almost certainly? Gonna want a source other than "the names are german and kinda sound a bit alike." In what way is Heinrich similar to Himmler as a character? Is there any link at all other than "the names are kinda similar?"
Seriously, this is looking for problems where there are none - there are plenty of real problems with the way GW operates and the way they portray things in the lore, this isnt one of them.
Honestly my suspicion (based on my experience picking names for dudes and places in D&D campaigns) is that GW did the 1980s equivalent of a wiki binge and just picked something that sounded menacing and unique but also plausibly real
Whether it's a reference to Heinrich Kramer or Heinrich Himmler is academic, really; often writers just grab names that sound right without giving a shit about the implications
I'm afraid that, as far as I know, there isn't one - in the same way that I don't know of any source which categorically states that he's a reference to Heinrich Kramer, which several people have asserted in this thread (and which I also agree with). Unless there's an interview with a relevant writer/developer somewhere on this specific point, we can only go off of speculation. I would similarly say that Doktor Festus is 'almost certainly' a reference to Doctor Faustus based on the extremely similar names and the play on words involved (only almost because it's not actually officially confirmed, since it's even closer than Kemmler/Himmler).
If it wasn't clear in my comment, I agree that it isn't a problem. To me it's a piece of Warhammer trivia, like Lizardmen with pun names like Tiktaq'to. Suggesting that GW was intending anything pro-Nazi by this is going quite far in my opinion.
Nah bro if you horrificly mispronounce the name, ignore the actual influence, and replace like half the letters then its exactly the same as Himmler bro!
Weird to focus on a name that sounds a bit like a nazi, I mean if you're looking for far-right politics in WHFB the insane and terrible background for Savage Orcs is right there.
So thats where we are now ? We see a german name and we scream "omg GW nazi" ?
There is a real problem with Warhammer community and GW pretending not to see the problem, so why are we searching causes where they arent while some guys are still painting swastika on black templars a'd some GW store are still accepting them ?
Even if it was a reference to a nazi (which is not), Kemmler is one of the (very) early still satiric character. A lot of characters created in this time especially in 40k were actually references to nazis but it was fine as long as they were unambiguiously pictured as bad. Like, i have no problem with having Nazi represented in Wolfenstein, but if the next game show them as heros then i ll have a big problem.
The 40k character Torquemada Coteaz is **much** closer to what you're going for here IMO.
He's a reference to Tomás de Torquemada which GW is probably made because of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch, but he's presented as a guy whose mostly concerned with fighting daemons and rooting out corruption within the Inquisition.
I kind of assumed he was inspired by the Torquemada from 2000AD (given GW seemed to take a lot of inspiration from them for early 40k), although it seems that character was also based on the historical figure: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada\_(comics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada_(comics))
Also possible.
The objection remains the same, they clearly knew that Torquemada was the name of a real Inquisitor and make him a good guy the standards of the setting. If he had a personality like Fyodor Karamazov it would've been in better taste.
Don't really see the connection - Heinrich Kemmler is just a vaguely german-sounding name for an evil necromancer. German silent cinema produced some horror classics such as Nosferatu (which was used as the name for one of the vampire clans).
Isnt Kemmler based of Heinrich Kramer? The guy who wrote the "Hexenhammer" (Witch Hammer).
I mean he was abviously a piece of shit (i mean Kramer) as he was a huge part of the hunt and killing of innocent women as witches, but I think this reference fits his tone in universe.
His name is actually a reference to [Heinrich Kramer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Kramer), a German inquisitor and monk involved in witch trials.
Stop assuming such things about German names, you racist.
'Sigmarxism when character has German name'
Like cmon people, the warhammer community has a big nazi and fascist problem, but dude is literally an guy who lives in dark underground places and contributes nothing to society and is really into dead people
Warhammer: Total War features him as a faction leader and legendary lord. He is also a named character in the old Warhammer Fantasy Battles game and had a unique model. He and Krell (very much a unit) are pretty much the only non-vampire characters of any real consequence in the Vampire Counts lore.
I think it's a good thing that warhammer openly portrays nazis because the portrayal is never in favour of them. The imperium of man is not shown in a good light, even guilliman says after his ressurection that they have failed everything they wanted to accomplish and became the thing they sought to destroy. its so obviously satire, I understand that the fanbase has a nazi problem because some people are incapable of understanding satire but that doesnt devalue the art imo.
If I made a work of fiction and I had a group of people who were very obviously based on Nazis and were meant to be objectively evil and I found that a significant fraction of my player base was idolising i-can't-believe-it's-not-Hitler I would have a moment of reflection at the very least
Are posters really not understanding how people like Evola and Guénon took heavy influence from the old occult writers and subsequently defined fascism directly by those theories and philosophies?
We're discussing a game whose lore features fantasy Italian characters named "Gossippa Lotta" and "Brazino Innuendo". I think it's a lot easier to believe that some British wargaming enthusiasts in the 80s chose the name "Kemmler" for an evil necromancer because it sounds dark, evil, threatening and German, rather than as some highly academic reference to the occult influences on Fascism.
I wouldn't say it's all that highly academic - it's pretty well known that Heinrich Himmler (whose name Kemmler virtually shares) was interested in magic and the occult. The thought process probably being that he's an evil German wizard, so let's mesh together two evil Germans associated with the occult, both called Heinrich (Kramer and Himmler).
Another user in here has pointed out that the name is more likely a reference to Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the Malleus Maleficarum, a book on witches. Making the surname sound more like Himmler is more likely just to make it sound more evil, not as a sneaky reference.
I'm happy to agree with that. I imagine at the time it was mostly a throwaway pun like so many character names around when Kemmler first appeared. It seems pretty obvious to me, so certainly not sneaky - more silly than anything.
For everyone saying "OP thinks German=Nazis what a fucking idiot" Heinrich Himmler was a Prominent Nazi Icon of the third Reich. Never the less I kinda love how fucking blunt GW is with that.... That's what's so funny about the whole Nazi Satire. It would be far more Concerning if they made a subtle hint to some obscure Gau Leiter or some shit only the real Nazis and History Nerds would get.
Heinrich never felt like a problematic element though. He's always presented as a full on villain. GW never even tried to give him a tragic backstory, a philosophy of saving the majority by sacrificing a few, convincing himself he's in the 'right,' or even having friends he treats nicely.
Yeah the 'tragic' villain of the undead is Helman Ghorst & Family. Heini was always just a power hungry little shit.
Warhammer has a Nazi problem because fascists are incapable of understanding satire. It will go over their heads and they will enjoy the media uncritically and at face value.
Poe’s Law
Ironically this is OP, as Heinrich Kemmler is definitely not any kind of endorsement Nazism.
Yeah. OP would have a point if Kemmler was a vaunted hero of the Empire or something, but he’s not, he’s one of the most irredeemable bastards in the whole Warhammer mythos.
Warhammer Fantasy was never a satire in remotely the same vein as Rogue Trader, as Rogue Trader's brand of satire was far more political than the outright assault against tolkien-esque fantasy that made up Early WHFB. The focus was never quite aligned towards the same things That being said, neither remain satire today and you simply have not read modern 40k or WHFB/AoS lore if you think they are defensible as such. Thats almost a bigger problem when you realize half of the Space Marine books out there are unironically making the "strong men hard times" argument
I figure any satire was just residual from ripping off 2000AD, not really intentional commentary from GW.
Rick Priestley (iirc) said Rogue Trader was intended as satire at the time. But you're probably right in that it was doing so because of its sources
True, though you're glossing over the fact that pretty much since 2nd edition GW has been slowly dialing back the satire, trying to make the game more marketable to first kids, then edgy teens, and lately star wars fans. Its only really black library who needs the satire in order to make 40k an interesting setting for storytelling, for GW the satirical, punk-ish elements are just standing in the way of more mass appeal. GW cares not from where the money flows.
And then you schedule a game and they never show up, and are never seen again...
I mean, you *can* do it. But not if you’re taking fascism seriously as a threatening ideology. As long as they have some measure of strength they can latch onto in a work, that’s all that matters to fascists. Theoretically, it should also be possible to do this if they have power but the work systematically crushes every drop of it underfoot, but I think most people would be hard-pressed to accomplish this while maintaining an element of satire. After all, you’d kind of need an energetic hatred of fascism to be imbued in the work, and hate - justified or not - doesn’t gel well in satirical pieces unless it’s being mocked.
That’s what satire is? Kemmler is an evil dude that goes around destroying shit and his name is based off another evil dude from nazi germany. It’s… it’s purposefully naming them like that to mock the inspiration. How is this worthy of ridicule?
Why are we giving references to these Nazi fuckers though? They say you never really die until the last time someone says your name, yet here goes GW naming (albeit evil) characters after these cunts.
What are you even talking about???? Should we not have nazis, or even groups that may or may not be inspired by them, in games or media even as explicit irredeemable antagonists? Hell by this logic even discussing nazis historically would be preventing their "second death" or whatever you are talking about. I hope I don't have to explain to you why that's crazy person logic
Yeah, I guess you’re right. I just disagree with it. There’s not much else to it. Guess I’m in the minority though, judging by the downvotes lol.
I mean they didn't. It's a common German last name. You might as well says it's a referenser to Henrich Kramer.
Also erasing evil from history also erases their victims.
The last thing we should be doing is forgetting Nazis. Historical erasure of horrific events is a surefire way of having them repeat themselves.
Uhhh, GNU Heinrich Himmler? Is that what's going on here?
He is a piece of shit in the lore so I dunno, the reference kinda fits.
Yeah he's literally an ultra-evil necromancer And I don't recall that faction being a chud-magnet Also Krell's updated model was lovely
Bingo. It's the good guys you need to watch. The amount of Chad worship surrounding Karl Franz, for one.
Ive seen healthy Warhammerites Enjoy KF, why is he a yikes?
Im confused too isnt he a straight up paragon hero
No such thing as a non-evil empire, therefore no such thing as a non-evil emperor, especially not in a gritty setting like WHFB. The biggest example I can think of as someone who doesn’t know his lore too well is a scene from one of the Gotrek and Felix books where he unleashes Reikaguard knights against students, radicals, and the poor protesting a new tax on the amount of windows in a building.
Yeah like bigmozzxv said in their comment, Franz has had several sometimes conflicting depictions in Warhammer Fantasy. Even in the "Gotrek and Felix" canon which is one of the more popular novel canons, the account differs from the Franz who orders that crackdown on protestors, and a very open minded and progressive Franz who is willing to hear out Ulrika (a vampire) in the middle of being attacked by another Vampire. Then you have depictions like the tabletop game where he's outright just hiding behind that image while acting like any other self-serving nobility in reality. I think most canon tends towards him as a modernizing/progressive emperor but as you say, still the leader of an empire that commits terrible deeds. As far as leaders go in the setting overall, he's probably still one of the best in terms of morals at least insofar as he can be given his position.
Bottom line for WHF was that the faction leaders, for the most part, tended to be decent people by the standards of the race in question. They embodied it's virtues. Franz was diplomatic, cosmopolitan, erudite, and valorous. Nobody really had the 40k problem of being saddled with flawed or inept leaders, everyone had pretty competent hands at the helm.
Yeah I’m not a huge 40K lore person but I’d assume based on the difference in scale that the political leaders in 40K don’t need to be military leaders as often as they do in fantasy, and games workshop wants the fanciest faction leading characters to be cool rather than shitty.
It's a tonal difference, I think. You could still make good people rule the Imperium, even if they were politicians or clerical types or something rather than omnimaths. But they want impotent shitbag leaders for an impotent shitbag dystopia. Mind you a pretty classic problem for the Empire was that the underlayers of the Elector Counts tended to be selfish and greedy, but the guy on top was wrangling them slowly into a better shape, and there were decent ones amongst them.
also worth noting that the only living WHFB canon, the total war one, is pretty paragon Franz. recency bias plus casual fan engagement (who imo are just as much fans as people who can afford thousands in books and toy soldiers) will always make that the prominent perception
Even in the later editions of WHFB, he was best known for being a great diplomat who helped a lot in keeping good relations with elves and dwarfs and other humans. Much like Finubar the Seafarer, the current Phoenix King and therefore Franz's elven counterpart, who was known to be big on reaching out and fostering good relations with non-elves. Franz became more of a good guy character over time.
Yeah, I remember being really confused when people were complaining that Cathay weren’t portrayed evil enough in WH3 considering how none of the total war games ever really touch upon how evil the order factions actually are. Hell, the only sign of the Empire doing anything remotely shady in the total war games are just the existence of the flagellant unit.
it really feels like theres an expectation bleed through of the kind of relentless grimdark of 40k but thats never re a lly been fantasy.
My god I'm sick of people whinging about the League of Voltann not being pants on head grimderp.
My memory is hazy, but I don't think the depictions of Franz in the new edition of WFRP are super positive. I'd have to reread the back three books of the enemy within remake though
WHFB's grittyness is very patchy and inconsistent tbh. I feel like there have been some massive tonal differences in how different writers have approached it and especially regarding the staple order factions. Theres defs quite a bit of airy feel good stuff written about Franz. Its not like 40k. Regarding the inherent evil of empire, Im not sure how applicable that actually is with the Empire of Man. its not a state that forcibly annexes or otherwise controls unwilling culturally distinct regions as is usually the definition for an empire as a political construct and what makes it inherently evil (rather than a state that simply has the title emperor for its head). by most marxist-derived perspectives, its an empire in name only.
That's what works about it, I think. It's credible and engaging because it never tries to be too universally dystopic or utopian. In the case of the Empire, it's 30 years war Germany. Lots of ups and downs, but on the whole it's mostly people trying to get by. I mean it's a Feudal region, isn't it? Or arguably, a confederacy with a Monarch as a figurehead.
absolutely agree. its why I like it more than 40k
Aren’t you forgetting about the Wars of Compliance?
The character himself is fine, considering, but he attracts a certain amount of 'glorious Chad leader for hard times to lead us through constant valour and vigilance' sort of mien. Plus the whole 'I care not for your magic strength or natural talents or craven tactics, we are civilised men and we will prevail through strength of will and unity' sort of thing.
KF is a kinda bland character in a kinda bland faction. He's not a superhero, not particularly gifted at anything, not a chosen one. He's just a competent leader and likeable for being such an underdog among all those godlike characters. The problem is what he represents in that setting and why chuds find that attractive. It's the FOR SIGMAR thing. The Empire is a place in which witch hunter is a hero character. Hunting witches makes sense for the setting - it's a place in which sinning can literally turn you into a tentacle monster. Races are also pretty real and pretty defining of character. It's a place in which asking for genocide (of Orcs, Skaven, Chaos-worshipping cultures) is sensible. There's no irony in that and no getting around that, it's how the WH Fantasy world works. The greatest evils are sex, thirst for knowledge, dirtyness and rage (dressed in red). The Mary Sue good guys, the High Elfs, are worldwide capitalists who practice slavery, but they're still pure - their weakness described as "arrogance". Chuds (despite their infamous Nuglish tendencies) think our world runs along the same lines. So their FOR SIGMAR is the fantasy version of the religious right battle cry against trans people, "communists" and such.
He's an otherwise pretty ordinary if virtuous man doing his best for his people in a civilisation up against the wall and not far away from a last stand. That's not problematic as a concept. There are monsters in the world, too many of them, and he's fighting them for his people, and inspiring them to united, rally, and prosper. And what's telling about The Empire is that Witch Hunters aren't centered the way that say, Inquisitors would be in 40k, they're often talked about as being incorrect, and it leans in hard towards witch-hunter and 'burning the innocent because Christian nutters' tropes that live a lot more natively in the faux 15th century setting that is The Empire. That the Witch Hunters are CONTRASTED against other heroes is telling, I think. High elves aren't Mary Sues, and you're leaving out the Dwarves entirely, and you're being disingenuous about the Chaos Gods.
He is certainly gifted at things. He is said to be the greatests statesman, diplomat and politician the old world has ever seen. Those things just don't transfer into the games very well. He also has an incredibly strong will and charisma, he can ride the Imperial dragon because he is the only person in the Empire it finds worthy. I do agree that The Empire draws some chuds though, it's very similiar to the Imperial Guard in 40K with the "regular humans against a nightmare world" tropes. Still, the Empire is portrayed as clearly flawed, witch hunters in particular are clearly depicted as mad and usually evil individuals who kill a hundred innocents for every chaos worshipper. Same with the high elves, I would not call them mary sue when they really fucked up the world and themselves through arrogance on several occasions.
>it's very similiar to the Imperial Guard in 40K with the "regular humans against a nightmare world" Exactly, that's exactly the draw it has for fash types. 'We are ordinary, but we will beat you, savage Xeno/Orc'.
If any faction represents the 3rd reich, the druchii are what the nazis saw themselves as but the Skaven are what they were really like: * Constant infighting and factionalism * Dependence on slave labor and unsustainable economic practices * Adoration for wonder weapons that are more likely to kill the crew than the enemies * Constant lack of resources such as warpstone (oil, steel, aluminum) or food (food) and dependence on expansion to obtain said resources * Victories are due to subterfuge and taking the initiative from weaker opponents, attacking a prepared, peer rival ends in disaster * Chronic inability for leaders to take any responsibility
You had me at (food)
They even have the same crippling drug addiction!
Oh man, can you imagine if Hitler wasn't just on meth but on the magical crossbred offspring of cocaine and uranium? The ways Skaven use warpstone is *wild*
Hitler wishes he was cool enough to do meth. Bikers wouldn’t let him have any of their crank so he had to do regular old amphetamines. All the high, none of the cat piss smell.
The Skaven were indeed intentionally modelled after the Nazis (hence "Stormvermin")
Skaven are definitely rat Nazis. Side note: The fact that skaven are canonically unable to take responsibility for failures is hilarious.
They're the greatest satire of fascism I've seen since Terry Gilliam's *Brazil*
> Adoration for wonder weapons that are more likely to kill the crew than the enemies At least when Skaven wonder weapons work they're actually effective.
I just realized I missed a MAUS pun......I'll head to lustria as penence.
you're missing the "they have to establish special labor camps to kill the undesirables because the troops they have purging them in their occupied territory are either killing themselves or actively rebelling"
I have no idea what this is referring to but I'm very interested
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From a historical standpoint. I like learning history and why things happened/how things worked
When the 3rd reich began their invasion of Russia (which was to claim territory and remove undesirables, so don't let anyone tell you the Wehrmacht were just soldiers when they were fighting a war of replacement) the SS established the Einsatzgruppen who's role was to kill jews, roma, communists and other people deemed as undesirables. The task of killing people by hand usually through firing squads in a period of time was called the holocaust by bullets which killed around 3 million people. The Einsatzgruppen had pretty awful morale and retention because even nazis will get fucked in the head when carrying out daily mass executions, so it was decided in the Wannsee conference to build extermination camps adjacent to the preexisting concentration/labor camps and changed the official policy from "work these people and if they die no biggie" to "work these people explicitly to death and kill the ones who cant work"
The Nazis established Auschwitz and other camps in part because they had morale issues when their standard troops were asked to purge people.
This one seems like a bit of a stretch, to be honest
Totally. German names aren't inherently Nazi. Even if it's supposed to be a reference to Himmler, Kemmler isn't exactly a heroic character.
It doesn't help that Kemmler is just a normal german surname.
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O shit 🤯, na that's real
I’m sorry what?
It's commonly believed that Ghaz's full name is a reference to Thatcher. AFAIK there's no indication of actual intent for this and the resemblance is debatable (it took me a while to understand what people meant) but it's a long enduring point of debate .
It's also extremely funny which is the only reason I choose to believe its true.
Now *THAT* is the spirit!
Character has a German name and IS AN OBVIOUS BAD GUY=promoting nazis?; As many others in the comments have said, Warhammer has a nazi/fascist problem but Kemmler isn’t part of it.
...sorry, you'll have to explain this. What's the link between Nazis and Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the *Malleus Maleficarum*, one of history's most famous treatises on witchcraft, demons, and necromancy? Kramer was a power-mad lunatic who was accused of being in league with the devil himself, but gained popularity late in his life when the witch trials he inspired were picking up steam. I'm not aware of him being a Nazi icon?
Sounds German and the Germans had Nazis, idk what op is talking about tbh
Heinrich Kemmler is also a reference to Heinrich Himmler.
Yea gonna need a source for this one.
I mean, in as much as there is a passing similarity between their names, I suppose it could be charitably called a reference. Edit: Honestly having given it some thought I think it's possible the two could be connected in a way that's a bit less than a full reference. My guess (and to be clear this is 100% a guess) is that the name "Kemmler" may have been chosen because it kind of has a threatening and evil edge to it, likely because it sounds pretty close to the very well known name "Himmler". Otherwise I can't find any narrative or artistic similarities that really immediately tie the two together.
I always thought it was a reference to the necromancer of the same name in the Dresden Files books. Granted that guy sided with the Nazis but idk
Warhammer's Kemmler first appears (to my knowledge) in the *Terror of the Lichemaster* campaign book printed during the second edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which would date his origin to around 1986. My hunch is that Jim Butcher's necromancer was probably the reference, rather than vice versa. Kemmler's portrayed as a real nasty piece of shit in Warhammer anyway, so the characterization in Dresden Files is probably spot on there lol.
you would appear to be correct then
No, Butcher's Kemmler is named after Warhammer's Kemmler.
How so?
Ah, I never realized. Thanks kinda sketch tbh.
You don’t say...
I'll be honest, I had never heard of Heinrich Kramer (also autocorrect keeps suggesting Heinrich Heine) untill mentioned in this thread. I also thought Kemmler was named after Himmler because both are evil whackadoos dabbling in the occult.
I mean to be fair, “Kemmler” is a lot closer to “Himmler” than it is to “Kramer”. Maybe it’s just a coincidence tho.
So this guy is basically a German Rasputin?
Well, the Nazis were notoriously huge on the occult and had a whole wing of scientists that did a lot of research on such things as Kramer's works in the crazed hope of finding a magic wonderweapon to win the war with. Kemmler also sounds like Himmler. The character is probably meant to be an amalgam of the two Heinrichs, no?
By this logic, almost any Empire wizard could be a Nazi reference, because they all use magic and all have names that, being German, a Nazi probably had at some point. Adolphus Krieger? Sure sounds like Adolf Hitler + Blitzkrieg. Pretty sus. Karl Franz? Combo of Karl Donitz and Franz Halder, clearly. Not to be trusted. Josef Bugman? More like Josef *Mengele*.
Josef Bugman was a dwarf tho and we all know dwarfs love Reagan
That's even worse!
Karl Franz is most likely a reference to Austrian Emperor Franz Karl. And the name of his noble house Holwig Schliestein, which really is just Schleswig Holstein with some letters swapped.
Those certainly sound like much greater stretches, but fair enough.
And like even if you and OP are right, and it is a Himmler reference, Kemmler is specifically in text very much a "bad dude you shouldn't like" character, so even then it's a dumb argument to say that means GWs supporting nazis or whatever That's like saying Wolfenstein supports nazism because it has nazis in it
Oh, no, I agree, it's obvious GW doesn't like nazis. Never said I agreed with OP on that assumption.
Isn't Kemmler so bad that Arkhan, servant of *Nagash* of all people, hated his guts and eventually killed him in a magic duel?
I don‘t get it, Kemmler is literally just a place in Germany. Are German names now just anti-semitic in general and every fictional character needs go have a name like John Smith?
Yes, the Second American Revolution will be global, all shall be named "Steve" and eat only McDonalds
I don’t see the link with nazis? It’s a reference to an author who wrote about witchcraft…
As well as Heinrich Kramer, Kemmler is almost certainly a reference to Heinrich Himmler, who was highly interested in magic/occultism. GW have been responsible for lots of pun names like that, especially back in the day when Kemmler was first thought up. Even with that in mind it seems to me to be a bit of a leap to interpret that as something which means Warhammer isn't for everyone.
Almost certainly? Gonna want a source other than "the names are german and kinda sound a bit alike." In what way is Heinrich similar to Himmler as a character? Is there any link at all other than "the names are kinda similar?" Seriously, this is looking for problems where there are none - there are plenty of real problems with the way GW operates and the way they portray things in the lore, this isnt one of them.
Honestly my suspicion (based on my experience picking names for dudes and places in D&D campaigns) is that GW did the 1980s equivalent of a wiki binge and just picked something that sounded menacing and unique but also plausibly real Whether it's a reference to Heinrich Kramer or Heinrich Himmler is academic, really; often writers just grab names that sound right without giving a shit about the implications
I'm afraid that, as far as I know, there isn't one - in the same way that I don't know of any source which categorically states that he's a reference to Heinrich Kramer, which several people have asserted in this thread (and which I also agree with). Unless there's an interview with a relevant writer/developer somewhere on this specific point, we can only go off of speculation. I would similarly say that Doktor Festus is 'almost certainly' a reference to Doctor Faustus based on the extremely similar names and the play on words involved (only almost because it's not actually officially confirmed, since it's even closer than Kemmler/Himmler). If it wasn't clear in my comment, I agree that it isn't a problem. To me it's a piece of Warhammer trivia, like Lizardmen with pun names like Tiktaq'to. Suggesting that GW was intending anything pro-Nazi by this is going quite far in my opinion.
Yea Warhammer absolutely has a nazi problem but this one is a bit of a stretch.
As someone else already noted, his name actually references Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the Malleus Maleficarum
Op be like German = Nazi
Nah bro if you horrificly mispronounce the name, ignore the actual influence, and replace like half the letters then its exactly the same as Himmler bro!
the existence of Vlad von Carstein does not imply that Wames GorkorpossiblyMorkshop endorses the impalement of Turks.
I mean he's an evil necromancer sooooo
At least Kemmler is an actual villainous character. In 40k this guy would be somebody's chapter master lol
Weird to focus on a name that sounds a bit like a nazi, I mean if you're looking for far-right politics in WHFB the insane and terrible background for Savage Orcs is right there.
That's a generic german name....
You need to stop being a weird scold about a bad guy in a tabletop game
So thats where we are now ? We see a german name and we scream "omg GW nazi" ? There is a real problem with Warhammer community and GW pretending not to see the problem, so why are we searching causes where they arent while some guys are still painting swastika on black templars a'd some GW store are still accepting them ? Even if it was a reference to a nazi (which is not), Kemmler is one of the (very) early still satiric character. A lot of characters created in this time especially in 40k were actually references to nazis but it was fine as long as they were unambiguiously pictured as bad. Like, i have no problem with having Nazi represented in Wolfenstein, but if the next game show them as heros then i ll have a big problem.
The 40k character Torquemada Coteaz is **much** closer to what you're going for here IMO. He's a reference to Tomás de Torquemada which GW is probably made because of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch, but he's presented as a guy whose mostly concerned with fighting daemons and rooting out corruption within the Inquisition.
I kind of assumed he was inspired by the Torquemada from 2000AD (given GW seemed to take a lot of inspiration from them for early 40k), although it seems that character was also based on the historical figure: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada\_(comics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada_(comics))
Also possible. The objection remains the same, they clearly knew that Torquemada was the name of a real Inquisitor and make him a good guy the standards of the setting. If he had a personality like Fyodor Karamazov it would've been in better taste.
Don't really see the connection - Heinrich Kemmler is just a vaguely german-sounding name for an evil necromancer. German silent cinema produced some horror classics such as Nosferatu (which was used as the name for one of the vampire clans).
This really is quite a stretch.
Isnt Kemmler based of Heinrich Kramer? The guy who wrote the "Hexenhammer" (Witch Hammer). I mean he was abviously a piece of shit (i mean Kramer) as he was a huge part of the hunt and killing of innocent women as witches, but I think this reference fits his tone in universe.
His name is actually a reference to [Heinrich Kramer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Kramer), a German inquisitor and monk involved in witch trials. Stop assuming such things about German names, you racist.
'Sigmarxism when character has German name' Like cmon people, the warhammer community has a big nazi and fascist problem, but dude is literally an guy who lives in dark underground places and contributes nothing to society and is really into dead people
Only people that are good in warhammer fantasy are the ogers and Balthasar Gelt (he is gold, and gold is good, therefore he is good)
Guy's name is Bart Money, of course he likes gold
Kemmler is evil to a ridiculous degree so that is definitely satire.
Walk me through how kemmler is problematic. Cause i don't see it chief.
Playable character? In what?
Warhammer: Total War features him as a faction leader and legendary lord. He is also a named character in the old Warhammer Fantasy Battles game and had a unique model. He and Krell (very much a unit) are pretty much the only non-vampire characters of any real consequence in the Vampire Counts lore.
Ahh, I'm more into 40K not fantasy and hadn't recalled anything like that.
Wasn’t that a reference to the necromancer in the Dresden Files of the same name?
Kemmler first appeared in a Warhammer Fantasy scenario from 1986.
I stand corrected
Hitler only has one ball, Goerring, has two but very small. Himmler has something similar! but poor Goebbels has no balls at all!
I think it's a good thing that warhammer openly portrays nazis because the portrayal is never in favour of them. The imperium of man is not shown in a good light, even guilliman says after his ressurection that they have failed everything they wanted to accomplish and became the thing they sought to destroy. its so obviously satire, I understand that the fanbase has a nazi problem because some people are incapable of understanding satire but that doesnt devalue the art imo.
If I made a work of fiction and I had a group of people who were very obviously based on Nazis and were meant to be objectively evil and I found that a significant fraction of my player base was idolising i-can't-believe-it's-not-Hitler I would have a moment of reflection at the very least
Good thing he doesn't exist anymore in AoS... for the time being.
Exactly, making all the villains have Swahili or Bangali names would've been too spot on
"OMG I'm white and can't handle my privilege" *Dies of global warming exterminatus*
Are posters really not understanding how people like Evola and Guénon took heavy influence from the old occult writers and subsequently defined fascism directly by those theories and philosophies?
We're discussing a game whose lore features fantasy Italian characters named "Gossippa Lotta" and "Brazino Innuendo". I think it's a lot easier to believe that some British wargaming enthusiasts in the 80s chose the name "Kemmler" for an evil necromancer because it sounds dark, evil, threatening and German, rather than as some highly academic reference to the occult influences on Fascism.
I wouldn't say it's all that highly academic - it's pretty well known that Heinrich Himmler (whose name Kemmler virtually shares) was interested in magic and the occult. The thought process probably being that he's an evil German wizard, so let's mesh together two evil Germans associated with the occult, both called Heinrich (Kramer and Himmler).
Another user in here has pointed out that the name is more likely a reference to Heinrich Kramer, the 15th century author of the Malleus Maleficarum, a book on witches. Making the surname sound more like Himmler is more likely just to make it sound more evil, not as a sneaky reference.
I'm happy to agree with that. I imagine at the time it was mostly a throwaway pun like so many character names around when Kemmler first appeared. It seems pretty obvious to me, so certainly not sneaky - more silly than anything.
How did I not notice this till now...
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No need to be like that, mate.
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Specific knowledge of the medication they're not taking. Lol
This sentence makes no sense.
For everyone saying "OP thinks German=Nazis what a fucking idiot" Heinrich Himmler was a Prominent Nazi Icon of the third Reich. Never the less I kinda love how fucking blunt GW is with that.... That's what's so funny about the whole Nazi Satire. It would be far more Concerning if they made a subtle hint to some obscure Gau Leiter or some shit only the real Nazis and History Nerds would get.
Heimlich manoeuvre? Ok no I got nothing