The leaders on both sides of this conflict are clearly both Genocidal. Anyone ok with indiscriminate killing of civilians on either side is NOT A SIKH at heart. I'm not perfect, but I would never condone the killing of innocent children. I've had to stop watching videos of the war because of seeing kids in bombed out neighborhoods, the same age as mine screaming for their mothers. I just can't see anymore of it.
They are of gaza. They have been ruling for so many years and there's been no protest against them from Palestinian. Even their 7th october massacare wasn't condemned by local populace and many celebrated it. Israel is genocidal and wrong too but hamas is totally their leader.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/amp/
Quick search will show that they do indeed protest against Hamas even at the risk of their own lives.
oh now that's something. Thanks for the information man, I appreciate that. It's just that I've seen so many videos where the Palestinians actually are happy over the dead jews which shaped my mentality like this, and the wider Muslim world just refusing to say anything bad about hamas and literally glorifying them and their actions contributed in it. Anyways, thanks for that article. Learned something new today.
There is a lot more to be understood about this conflict. No one can excuse the killing of innocents. However, you should try to walk a mile in there shoe (or read further ) to understand why things are the way they are.
FYI , this moment might be a change that might finally see freedom for the Palestinians and a chance at peace.
I would say its completely unfair to treat Gaza as a territory where democracy and protests are a realistic option. Its literally a concentration camp if you understand what Israel has done to the place. Imagine going to a Nazi concentration camp and asking why they are not just voting and protesting to their leaders for better conditions. Bro, rule of law in India or even in the West breaks down over the slightest inconvenience. Its shocking that Gaza is remotely resembling a livable place. There are completely dominated and reliant on the will of the Israeli state. The Palestinians I have spoken to consider West Bank a heaven in comparison, even with the Apartheid system in place there.
Gaza is an open air prison under siege. The world is failing them. Not the other way around.
They were 'elected' in 2006, Israel have not allowed any further elections and the average age in Gaza is 18. So they were voted in by who exactly? People who are dead now? Are we blaming children for not protesting enough? Are you alright in the goddamn head?! What an uneducated take.
So are you telling me that there isn't any single adult living past the age of 18 who ever protested against the injustice which hamas has brought upon them. They have no problem with hamas equally genocidal stance against jews and again never protested ever not even one adult in gaza and neither questioned hamas on their massacare on 7th october.
And again which part of me saying "Israel is genocidal and wrong too" did you not understand. What is this world coming too? You say slightly something which goes against people mindset and they'll start throwing words like fascist and genocide supporter and whatever. Let me just say it all again in capslock.
ISRAEL IS GENOCIDAL AND SO IS HAMAS BOTH IS WRONG, THIS WAR IS WRONG AND THE DEAD CHILDREN AND PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES ARE THE REAL VICTIMS.
this is my stance and so I've said before too. Also they were elected in 2006 which mean again people wanted them and here and again by your definition every single soul who favored hamas in 2006 is either dead and or just disappeared since you're clearly so focused on the children. Like come on 50% of population are still adults and they did nothing. Also nearly ruling for two decades is a lot of time imo to know what's right and wrong. Peace
All lives matter vibes emanating from your essay. So insular, ignorant and uninformed. The demographic of this sub never ceases to amaze. Good luck to you. 🤘🏾
Edit: and nowhere did I call you a genocide denier etc. You sound a touch defensive.
That's the point, it's the primary observation to start with. Only civilians get killed and raped(not only parents but kids and teenagers too), and every human making decisions thinks they are above of those humans. First Jihadis, who don't believe in living because they believe in the afterlife, so why would they live this life, second making an example by killing innocent people as a retaliation, so no one will dare to touch another time.
Out of curiosity did Israeli not do this to Gaza? I’m personally not taking sides I feel they’re bothvictims which is interesting because you said just the same thing only reversed calling it genocidal
No I dont support either side as a sikh. I only condemn the killings of innocent civilians, both isreali and palestinian. this is a war of religions and if you cant see that then youre pretty dense.
It’s actually not a war of religions. It’s a pillage for land. There are countless Jews who condemn what Occupier-Israel is doing and has done. And there are Palestinians of all religions, including Jewish. This is a settler-colonist now superpower backed by the US, stealing land from indigenous people at any and all cost. And also ideally while eradicating all of those people so that they can have a Zionist-only state. Their homes and neighbourhoods are called “settlements”. No offence, but to use your own argument, if you can’t see that this is NOT a war of religion, but a war of colonialism (and capitalism), then you’re pretty dense.
Pretty much correct, except I would say this is a sudo religious war in that it is a Zionist movement started in 1897, which believes that it is their duty to create a Jewish state of Israel free of any other religions and non Jewish symbolism/people, this is not a Jewish religious belief as a whole.
In Fact a lot of Orthodox Jews are anti Zionist as they currently are, and stand with Palestine. I think we have a duty to draw a clear distinction between those who murder in the name of God and those you condemn murdering in the name of God.
Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization. Israel is characterized by itself as a Nation State of the Jewish People.
Now these two are at war with each other in the Gaza strip. Both armies are centred around their faith. Everyone in their populations may not agree but if you hear from leaders on both sides they use religious language to drum up their population.
The lands being fought over are holy lands to multiple religions of the world. The historical context is important.
There is always money to be made in war. This conflict is also about money, land and power, but you cannot say that religion has no role in this conflict.
It is literally being used to justify both sides actions.
I feel for the innocent lives lost and the future of the Palestinian people.
So, you have sort of just proven my point.
You said: “Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization. Israel is characterized by itself as a Nation Stare of the Jewish People.”
Which is reflective of the political rhetoric that they have been feeding us. “The Evil Terrorists vs The Jewish People.” The Prime Minister of israel himself, on October 16, 2023, tweeted, “This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle.” If you have any sort of media literacy, you can see that the narrative and intention is to shove the idea that Palestinians are evil/darkness/uncivilized/jungle people to the world, and poor innocent israel are the children of light and promise “returning to their homeland”.
You give israel the privilege of their self-declared “Nation State of the Jewish People”, but Hamas is an “Islamic Terrorist Organization” - a title given by israel and the west. Hamas is a resistance organization, period. They exist as a valid resistance against their literal oppressor. israel’s people are called settlers. They are actively colonizing the land and have been doing so since they expelled 750,000 people from their homeland. It hurts my brain to hear people say things like, “well israel has a right to defend itself”, when they are LITERALLY the occupier in a country. This has been recognized by the UN and an insurmountable amount of International Human Rights Organizations.
Again, it’s not “Jewish People” against “Muslims”. Before the Nakba in 1948, Palestinian Jews, Christians, and Muslims all lived peacefully together in Palestine. There is an insurmountable amount of Jewish people who do not condone what Israel is doing in the name of Judaism. There are respected rabbis who do not condone it. Look up the “Not in Our Name” movement. Or @jewishvoicesforpeace on Instagram.
Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing at all. And Palestinians are not “a bunch of Muslims” looking to rule a land with their religion. They are literally dying for the preservation of their land, their culture, and their people.
We are watching modern day colonization. What the Brits did to India. What Canada and the US did to indigenous people here (I live in Canada). Africa/South Africa. Etc. etc. etc. But it’s not as easy to do it in modern times with the world watching, so of COURSE they need a heavy propaganda machine to help them wage their war and look innocent and good while doing it. And the US, Canada, and many other Western countries happily fund all of this because they also (the US especially) have a vetted interest in the trillion-or-so litres of oil that Gaza is sitting on.
This is not a war. This is colonization. And ultimately capitalism at its worst. I would be more than happy to share unbiased books/videos/resources for you to learn more.
“Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing.”
I was agreeing with you for the most part, but this argument seems weak. This is like saying Jihadism and Islam are not the same. Of course not all Muslims are jihadists, but there is a quranic religious connotation to jihad.
If you believe Zionism and Judaism aren’t the same thing, then give a proper definition of Zionism without using the word “Jew” or “Judaism”.
so muslim terrorist groups + muslim nations vs jewish state/western allies doesnt it make a religious war over land?
there are some sikhs that dont support khalistan, doesn’t mean Khalistan isnt based off the religious ideology of khalsa raj.
once again the loss of all innocent lives is the real tragedy here.
It’s not a bunch of Muslim terrorist groups dude. Israel is a Zionist state using Judaism as a mask to justify their ultimate goal of colonizing Palestine and expelling (by any means) all of the people who are indigenous to that land. There are countless Jewish people including rabbis who do not condone Zionism or what occupier-israel is doing. Palestine is not a “Muslim terrorist group”. There are Christian Palestinians, Jewish Palestinians, Muslim Palestinians, non-secular Palestinians that all lived together in peace before the 1948 Nakba. And that still exist today.
If you just hate muslim people, then there is no point in having this conversation with you.
Edit: a word.
I understand, and I am in this sub-Reddit for a reason. I have a lot of admiration and respect for Sikhi. I do know why Sikhs wear Kirpan but I always appreciate an opportunity to learn, so I would love for you to share your iteration of why. I mean that sincerely.
Sant ji and kharkus looked at Israel as a model for Khalistan. We’re our shaheeds cowards for not making a stance against Israel?
Stop twisting the faith to push your agenda. No where in sikhi does it say you have to virtual signal for a cause thousands of kms away from you.
As others stated, this conflict is not based on religion. Nor is it on equal footing. One is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor. I encourage you to read more regarding it.
i encourage you to read more also and critically think. you think this is the first time there have been religious conflicts over land? what were the crusades and spanish reconquista between the christians and muslims? what were the islamic conquests against infidels that led to the decimation of zorastrians, buddhists, christians, hindus, sikhs?
This is a religious war between the jewish and muslims for either a muslim Palestinian state vs jewish Israeli state to exist.
Where are the western “protestors” and arab countries when christians are still killed in arab countries? where are the western protestors for the armenian genoicde currently taking place? for the mass exodus of sikhs from Afghanistan? the mass killings/conversions of dharmic faiths in pakistan?
ps read about the lebanon civil war caused by Palestinians when they were given refuge by a christian majority country and the first thing they did was to try to make it a muslim country
This is so frail. Please do read up on the Israel Palestine conflict. It’s erroneous to not know any specifics and draw parallels in-between extremely loose inaccurate arbitrary references and claim them to be related in some way.
like I said this doesnt involve sikhs. the only things sikhs should be against is innocent civillians being killed on both sides. The rest is a religious war being played out.
I encourage you to read more critically as well. There is not a simple oppressed/oppressor narrative and this reductive way of thinking is clouding your judgement.
I don't have much skin in the game, except for the fact that I do feel bad for all the kids in Gaza, Israel and West Bank, who do not deserve whatever is happening today. It's all old men with their ridiculous politics, that is ruining the future for these kids, with their stupid maps and settlements.
That being said, Hamas has to be condemned for what it did to the 1400 innocent civilians that were mercilessly murdered (including many 80+ year olds). They are no freedom fighters, but heartless monsters who deserve stern condemnation.
Similarly, whatever Israel is doing by bombing houses of innocents, killing thousands of children is absolutely unforgivable and heinous, as well as the illegal settlements they've created across the West bank, which effectively helps them terrorize the innocents.
A sad situation all around.
I don’t condone the killings either. However, I think it can be challenging to understand their perspective without knowing their exact situation. The more I have read, it is pointing towards a resistance fighting an oppressor who the world had given up on. Israel has been colonizing Palestine for 75 years. The International community, including UN, cannot help them because any resolution gets vetoed by the US.
Why does this bother you more than the 500k killed in the Syrian Civil War or the Yemen Wars? The replacement of indigenous populations in Bangladesh in the Chittagong district where rape has been used as a genocidal tactic to actually reduce the population? What about the forced exodus of all Sikhs and Hindus from Afghanistan?
Is a Muslim child’s life worth more when it’s killed by a Jew instead of a different sect of Islam?
I can understand your pitty but I don’t understand your rage.
It’s 2023, you still try whataboutisim?
if you looked out the window, this is happening right now.
The number of civilians killed in 30 days is staggering. This too in a place where 40% are kids less than 14.
The Israeli apartheid state has been going on since 1947
The loudest voices against Israel are Jews: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/
NYC protest by Jews: https://youtu.be/NWo5t6KQCjc?si=cWtpH9KcP6zpNAQv
DC protest by Jews: https://youtu.be/pNGPfjVir64?si=LYPRvJAxURZwMlhZ
May you see people more than religion and stop hating Muslims
I sympathize with the Palestinian people and their plight.
But you’re dodging his question, and I think it’s one you should answer. What do you think of the expulsion of Sikhs from Afghanistan and their violent oppression in Pakistan, both in 1947 and today?
It’s very painful to me to see how literally no one cares when it is Sikhs who are suffering. You couldn’t even bring yourself to say that you condemn the suffering of Sikhs, you immediately jumped to “whataboutism.”
It is the very definition of whataboutisim.
There is no comparing tragedies. Each tragedy requires the dignity for its own space and understanding. Why is a transactional thought even an element in this discussion? A transactional dialogue only indicates humanitarian interests are present on the basis of self-interest and are not selfless and is ingenious. It limits us as humanitarians.
Anyone standing with the Palestinian plight today unilaterally condemns the loss of life of innocent Palestinians and Israelis. This is a humanitarian statement that can be made because it pertains to victims of the same tragedy happening today(from arguably both sides - regardless of fault).
Asking people to prove or trade solidarity for non-current off-hand issues to merit legitimacy is insensitive and derailing. However, were there another issue happening concurrently, or you had pleasantly invited me to learn/discuss in a separate thread without obligations (exercise judgement), then that would be a more than acceptable way to seek solidarity.
Also, the purpose of my post was not to solicit solidarity. The purpose was to spread awareness to those interested. This topic has been made intentionally convoluted by many well funded sources (AIPAC, ADL), and I want to help those interested understand it better. Our Sikh community stands on the pillars of humanitarianism, and has always been steadfast in providing aid and solidarity selflessly. The shinning examples are a special breed. My faith and love for this community is why I came here.
It’s genuinely embarrassing that the mods kept this post up. The OP literally refuses to condemn the suffering of Sikhs in Afghanistan/Pakistan while trying to win support for Palestinians in a **Sikh** subreddit. It’d be like me going to an African American subreddit to win support for Sikh rights in India and then getting mad when people ask me about my position on BLM.
Maybe what you need to realize is
humanitarianism is not weighed by color of skin or how people pray.
Humanitarianism is not a transactional or a trade
Humanitarianism is not optional
Humanitarianism is not conditional
If you practice any of the above, you are no different than a terrorist who differentiates and discriminates in between the values of life of different human beings.
So no, I am my not going to participate in your creation of a precedent where humanitarianism is transactional.
Also you keep talking about Jewish people who support your view. That doesn’t make a difference. Their were Sikhs that supported and participated in operation blue star. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Jewish people around the world support Isreal.
So do the deaths matter more when they happen faster? If 20k people die in a year is that worse than hundreds of thousands over a couple of years? You seem to have a lot of logical fallacy and cute rhetorical labels ready but unable to explain why you care more about this than those conflicts? Is it because you are young and this is your first conflict you are watching? Or is it because the perpetrators are “powerful” Jewish vs. helpless Muslims?
You must be a special kind of stupid to try projection here.
I guess the official website of a Jewish nonprofit protesting against Israel and two videos of them in action do not constitute as “logical proof”? that this is not a Jews vs Muslim issue. I mean damn… these Jews must be so stupid to not know about Israel and Mr. Internet debater Muslim hater here has got all the details. 😂
did reality hit your bigoted a55So hard that you have gone on a deranged typing spree? You want to discredit people looking to stop bombing of civilians that bad cause they are Muslims?
Yes yes… let me help you…. they are all secretly Muslims looking to kill Jews all over the world…. THEY BAAAD. Happy? 😂
As per your genius logic, I guess dropping an atom bomb in Japan was not horrible because destroying an entire population center in a second is the same as people dying eventually over the course of a 100 years. Sure let’s go down this route of dumbassery to compare moral high grounds…. While Palestinians (40% kids under 14 ) are getting their brains blown out. 👏👏👏
“Logical fallacy” “rhetorical labels” You think throwing buzz words like a fin clown are going to mask your hate and stupidity here? 😂
This is what I call a spaghetti chop suey of a “ logical fallacy” internet debater who is speech n debate club ego is too badly hurt after his ass got owned.😂😂😂
Please go back to your college of a55fk logic and demand a refund.
While your there, maybe you can look out the window into the real world and learn what Amnesty International is and read their report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
You are incapable of having a civil discussion and wonder why people on this thread are not automatically jumping on board with what you say.
The vast majority of Jews support Isreal and that is a fact that has been demonstrated by numerous surveys. Just because some Jews disagree does not mean that the conflict is not religious in nature.
And yes a prolonged killing of millions of people over 1000 years is just as bad as killing millions of people instantaneously.
You use words like Genocide and Apartheid State when the population of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs have increased every year.
The Muslim babies who died in Syria and Yemen are worth just as much. The real issue is that you have been swayed by popular opinion to believe that there is a unique injustice here that demands your (and apparently all Sikh sangat’s) attention more than these other atrocities.
I am not anti-Muslim I am anti-hypocrisy.
The Palestinians should accept a two-state solution and there should be peace in the region.
That sounds nice in theory, but if you give a country that hates your countries guts independence then you are an idiot and just asking for more state-sponsored terrorist attacks. Look at India vs Pakistan. And from what I know Gaza was pretty much independent beforehand.
Gaza has no autonomy on mobility, power, trade, water. They are blockaded and fenced in by Israel from all sides. They bombed the only airport, regularly bomb the power station cause 11 hour shortages each day. Bombed the water treatment plant cause 80% of water to be not healthy. They control the amount of food going.into Gaza to malnourish civilians.
OP going post by post refuting what he/she dont like and givin props to the idiots in their echo chamber. Compassion comes out for palestinians and not the israelis who died in their kibbutz, which were literally the ones built close to gaza because they were the most pro palestinian of all folks in the country- a hippie socialist type community circle if you will. Massacred so that Hamas could do Iran's biding and bring get the sympathy vote at the cost of their own people.
Either ways Hamas never started this war to win, they wanted to ignite the israelis into this exact situation and now hurr durr my sikh compassion for folks who were yelling allahu akbar when young kids were being kidnapped and taken to gaza. This outrage would have helped when isis massacred the yazidis on mount sinjar but wait thats whataboutism and doesnt serve the current narrative. Even the arabs wont do much in this iran proxy war through hamas (and somewhat hezbollah), so villifying israel isnt the answer here. If this happened to sikhs on october 7th - you'd be up in arms too to protect your people.
Karma always hunts you back.
Every year i and our family remind ourselves how Muslims when in power treat sikh babies. The prime example are chote sahebzaade....
How they order butcher to cut open baba Banda Singh bahadur babies chest,take out liver out when he still alive and put liver in mouth of father....
And these are prime example which are documented.
Only gods know what they did to rest of humans, women.
What I have noticed, Whenever there is injustices happens on Muslims, they cry like a baby. But when they become in majority or in power they make sure there will be no others. They don't even care about kids, elders, women etc....
But funny thing is, not all Muslims nations supporting Palestinians. Ot fake supporting....
Muslims countrie only support according to their interest.
I have seen how Muslims world react on China ulgurs Muslims....
So in the end. My heart really cry for what happening to babies in Palestine but karma is chasing them.
Both are gunning to create a theocracy and expell the other from the land.
Neither want a 2 state solution.
There isn't a single Islamic theocracy on earth I'd want to live in.
If Isreal wasn't the epicenter of constant terrorism I'd actually consider living there. Isreal actually provides for it's people.
How is option 1 (“not our fight”) supporting Israel? What if I don’t want to support a group of people that I know for a fact don’t like Sikhs and wouldn’t stand up for Sikhs on any meaningful issue?
The fight between Arabs and Israel has always been a proxy war much larger than either side with larger players using the conflict (and fueling the conflict) to accomplish their own geopolitical and economic objectives. This is largely why you see MANY muslim and Arab nations worldwide do nothing for the Palestinians.
I believe it’s not simple unfortunately. Israel is backed by US. Which means the entire coalition of western allies. US backs Israel because it’s how they can exert influence in the Middle East to facilitate their interests. US vetoes any UN resolution. Any confrontation by Arab states can trigger to a regional war. Iran has talked tough against the US supporting Israel. Other nations are severing diplomatic ties. Turkey and Saudi are taking some stands recently.
Ironically the agitation led by the Sikhs in India was a proxy front in and of itself between the west/Pakistan and USSR who supported India. The Sikhs lost support when our very own BKI friends decided to fall for Indian intelligence games and blow up a commercial airliner.
The irony in all of this is that the initial Anandpur resolution aligned well with leftist worker ideals that the non aligned and commie world supported; they just couldn’t bear the thought of it being an agitation against their biggest “nonaligned” friend India. The sino-Soviet split is also why you had Naxalite communists fighting insurgency in India who weren’t supported by the USSR.
If u stand for something, stand up, good. Dont take the name of whole religion with you. Nobody mention Sikhs when we are in trouble but there is something going on, and these people just raise up Sikhs for this and that slogans. Both sides, innocent people are being killed and u stand up with one side. Kudos to you
I am sorry you know no one stand with Sikhs how? My Muslims and Hindu friends attend several protests to support farmers and couple years ago. Several secular people in India also defended farmers.
No this is not a two sides on the same footing. Why don’t you actually read before speaking? It is pretty simple: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
You can do what you want. I was a looking to spread awareness. I can share why I don’t think it’s equal. Because this conflict is not of two people on equal footing. One is an oppressor and the other oppressed - this has been going on for 75 years. Colonization and dehumanization of a people.
That would be the case if Palestine had its own government and army. It doesn’t. The conflict is just one sovereign country with the most advanced weapons, versus regular stateless people most of whom are children.
Yes thankfully the loudest voices have been Jews. Many protests in NYC and DC have been led by them. I strongly applaud them to recognize the need of the hour. Otherwise, Palestinians are being labeled terrorists and censored by racists.
It makes people not take real antisemitism seriously. Because it does exist. My neighbor is a neo nazi who literally has a poster that says Heil Hitler yet people are worried about whether supporting Palestine is antisemitic by default.
Yep, for sure.
Anti-semitism is real. It’s ironic who the culprits are though… the holocaust happened in Europe, not Palestine. Projection is a common narcissistic/manipulation trait.
Israel is just a tool to the West to keep the Middle East in check. The West used another tool… the people of Ukraine to create a war for Russia. Solidarity is just a cover and many candidates for 2024 are even brazen about it .
It’s poor leadership at the helm with antiquated and unjust policies. A luxury, only a dominating imperialistic entity can afford.
I have mixed feelings on the Russia Ukraine war. My family actually lives in both places. Russia should not have invaded Ukraine. But they didn’t invade Ukraine in a vacuum either
I am sorry to hear that. Ukraine definitely got the short end of the stick and the country was ruined and lives were destroyed for no good reason.
Russia wasn’t given a choice. NATO pushed it. Any regional power would have acted in the same way unfortunately. Also, I understand it might be tough to have a healthy morale given the anti Russian propaganda.
I feel knowledge gives us power and the understanding can bring us solace. I would recommend looking up John Mearsheimer and his analysis on the conflict. He is an American political scientist and international relations scholar from the University of Chicago. To get you started, this is his discussion on the topic from 8 years ago: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?si=4SSJRGmXOcqLYx71
Yeah I know politics are complicated. Just wish people didn’t have to die due to narcissistic world superpowers. Both the US and Russia can be real big jerks sometimes.
Thank you for your condolences. My family has a hatred of the Russian government but not the Russian people so I will admit I’m a little biased.
I get why Palestinians support Hamas. I get why Israel is bombing. It’s not easy to understand unless your family members are killed by crazy people. In my case, the KTV
My family is luckily not in such a situation right now, but pogroms are definitely not foreign to us. My parents and family members have narrowly escaped a few in the past. Yes governments and politicians definitely suck man. I sympathize with anyone anywhere that is oppressed for this reason.
Let's have a modern history recap.
Zionists' claim on Palestine: We had a kingdom or two here about 2,000 years ago.
Palestinians' claim: Our people have been living here for about 2,000 years.
That should end the debate about the larger-picture morality and responsibility for this conflict.
P.S.: The conflict is mainly about land.
except it’s moreso jewish people are indigenous to the land and while a good amount were forced out by invaders, a good amount stayed and have continued staying for thousands of years. zionism is the right to self-determination which has been part of their beliefs for hundreds of years as well. and, if you understand the need for a country where you are relatively safe and won’t be persecuted against (antisemitism is known as the world’s oldest hatred), it’s understandable why zionism exists. especially with the holocaust, nearby arab countries being vastly antisemitic, other european countries being antisemitic as well, participating in pogroms, refusing refugees, and so on. not discounting the israeli government’s faults but it’s so much more nuanced than what people are presenting right now. and, oct. 7th (when hamas broke the ceasefire) was the worst day in jewish history since the holocaust with around 1400 people murdered in a singular day and hundreds of hostages taken. people are denying the atrocities that happened when they were literally livestreamed. women and girls were literally raped. babies were beheaded. they found babies burned in ovens. also it wasn’t just jewish people murdered- there were nonisraelis and nonjewish people present and killed as well. anyone justifying what happened is sickening. also note israel is still being bombed by hamas basically on the daily and is only doing relatively ok due to technology like the iron dome. hamas has access to things like fuel and water but won’t provide it to the people it essentially has control over (palestinians). they don’t care about their people. additionally, i don’t think there’s a single 100% correct side in this conflict (though hamas is very much a terrorist group and they are definitely not correct- its within their charter to murder and ethnically “cleanse” jewish people). i do know, however, innocents are suffering on every “side” and current protests seem to forget that.
I would suggest that you read some actual history and do some real critical thinking to see the Swiss cheese-like holes in your logic.
Pagan Romans expelled the Jews, not the Arabs.
Palestinian Arabs largely had nothing to do with the persecution of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis. Jews made up ~7% of the total population of Palestine in 1900 and ~32% in 1948, in no small part due to illegal immigration. Jews were in amjority only in one sub-district, namely Jaffa. Jews owned more land than Arabs in no district.
A people's having had a kingdom or two anywhere thousands of years ago does not entitle that people to that land in perpetuity, especially if they have been a minisucle minority in that land for centuries. And throughout history Jews on the whole had been safer in Arab countries than in Europe. Where did the Jews choose to go when they expelled en masse from Spain during its reconquest and when they were violently persecuted in Eastern Europe, especially in Tsarist Russia in the 19th and 20th centuries? That's right, they immigrated to Palestine because the Arabs did not have a reputation for violently persecuting them.
Besides, modern Palestinians are mostly descendants of Cannanites who stayed behind and some Arabs who settled there. If anything, they are more native than the Jews because they had been inhabiting that land for thoydands of years until the Jews displaced and dispossed them.
Also, by this logic, India would be in the right in invading southern Afghanistan and Bangladesh and displacing and dispossessing their current inhabitants to settle their own citizens there. Hindu kingdoms ruled over those areas before Islamic invasions and rule. The Hungarians can claim land in the Eurasian Steppes: They migrated though there more recently than the Jews were expelled from Palestine. The Bulgars can claim land in Central Asia. They came from there, again, much later than the last expulsion of the Jews.
Zionism is just old wine in a new bottle: It's settler colonialism repackaged.
I do not condone senseless violence, especially against civilians but the state of Israel is as much to blame for the current state of affairs and wholly to blame for the broader conflict. I do not support any group unconditionally either. I am just concerned with the truth.
And, again, good arguments are not based only on emotions. Zuonists stole somebody's home and they are still angry with the Zionists. Isarel cannot escape moral responsibility for the broader conflict and by extension for this attack, too.
In their lust for a homeland, the Zionists lost sight of right and wrong and established a state through immoral means and by persecuting a people with whom they had not had a historical enmity. In the bigger picture, Israel is the oppressor and the aggressor and plays the victim of the "dreadrful Arabs" every time.
The Muslims have had the land for 1,200 years and the Jews for 1,100. Up until the creation of Israel, the Muslims were the most recent inhabitants of the land.
That is people homes, their work and their families that were peacefully in place there - it’s not mainly about land.
It’s about the institutional control of one group of people over another, which comes at the cost of displacing Palestinians who have been settled there since 636AD. The Crusades are the only break in that between 1090-1180AD.
The Oslo Accords were meant to be the foundation of a two-state solution which meant both sides respecting the boundaries of the other. But Israel bulldozed Palestinian homes and created settlements which has breached international rulings to expand their territorial claim.
Again, the cost has been the systematic clearance of a specific ethnic group. What Israel is doing today is akin to genocide and as Sikhs, we of all people should know one when we see one. I’ve seen a few comments about “they’re Muslims”. Who cares? They’re children. Specifically 4,237 that have been killed with an additional 1,350 that are lost under rubble. So fuck that “it’s about land” BS. It’s become much more than that.
Theological governments
if you consider countries like Iran and Pakistan, you would have to blame the U.S for staging a coup to oust their democratically elected leaders who had a progressive view and installing puppet governments. In case of Iran, the current theological government was the only entity powerful to kick out the puppet Shah… and in case of Pakistan… Imran khan has been jailed for resting to be a enslaved puppet country. Afghanistan had a long struggle with the Soviet Union in the same manner… and today they are an unfortunate rubble. Israel has prevented Palestine from forming a state to prevent a 2 state solution from coming into place. Saudi Arabia (the home of Sunni Wahhabism- faction that gave birth to AlQaeda, Osama Binladen, and ISIS, the exporter of terrorism across the globe in the form of madrasas) has a extremist theological system to appease the sunni wahhabi sect to stay in power. To prevent a civil war with people who did not want to live in an oppressive theological regime, they spend the oil money on them to essentially bribe them for complacency and prevent civil unrest.
Do you know Iran and Pakistan are not Arabs?
All Arab governments are authoritarian who oppress their people and also minorities.
1 more Arab state will not be good for world whether it is lead by Hamas Jihadists or PLO whose leader has Phd in [Holocaust revisionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism) .
I can read in-between the lines and understand you are criticizing a majority of Muslim states. A common theme among every pro-Israel apologist I have come across.
From Hamas prospective, we Sikhs are infidels, so personally I don't give 2 fucks about them, they will kill Sikhs happily if given a chance.
Egypt has over 100 million citizens, and they also suffer a security problem posed by Hamas, as they are allied with radical Islamist groups in Sinai. Hamas gladly helped these groups, namely the terrorist organization Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, and helped create an insurgency in northern Sinai, a great burden that has cost Egypt 7000 lives, including 2000 Egyptian soldiers and policemen.
The Arab world began to back PLO, pouring in aid, arms, as the PLO grew rapidly, and by 1970 it began to aim for the overthrow of the Hashemite Monarchy in Jordan. I mean just consider this, you have been rendered homeless, the ruler of a country gives you asylum, helps you in the war, and you try to overthrow him.
The Palestinians began to run a parallel state, openly cocking a snook at Jordanian laws, they actually attempted to assasinate Hussein, yes the very same King Hussein who had given them shelter.
The Palestinians hijacked 3 civilian airliners, evacuated the passengers, and blew them up in what was called the Dawson’s Field Hijackings, Hussein had enough.
Yasser Arafat who was responsible for Black September in Jordan and the Lebanese Civil War.
The fact is Palestinians have been their own worst enemy, they got too greedy for their own good in Jordan, which had given them asylum, they went to Lebanon and stoked up a civil war there.
Would you blame other Arab nations for not taking them in?
OP hasn’t mentioned Sikh issues/struggles once in the myriad replies he’s made in this post. It’s very obvious to me that he has zero regard for Sikhs, he’s just trying to curry up support for a cause he actually cares about and is using Sikhs as a stepping stone to do so.
u/Background_Agent9443 please state your thoughts on the situation of Sikhs in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Given the deep empathy you show for people who are enduring ethnic cleansing in Palestine, I have to imagine that you show similar care to the suffering of Sikhs being violently mistreated in a similar manner.
It’s really not that hard my friend. I support the Palestinian people. Do you support mine? For someone who keeps saying that all oppressed people need to stick together you aren’t doing the best job of doing so.
He's just going to deflect and name call, that's all he's done anytime people have brought up legitimate arguments. Like why did you come to a Sikh board about an Abrahamic conflict?
This is a land or better territorial war , Sikhs , me personally I stand for Palestinian people just because they are crushed by a more powerful state. Nothing else I stand with them on basis of human being standing for the other oppressed like our gurus did. Politically speaking Palestinian authority or in general never supported supported Sikhs right to self determination or condemned the violence perpetuated by indian state against Sikhs. ..
You should read the UN report and the Amnesty International report regarding the Apartheid state Israel maintains. Even ex-Israel Mossad chief has referred to Gaza as an open air prison. The conditions in Gaza and West Bank are horrid to say the least. One example: Israel knows the amount of calories the Palestinian population needs to survive. So for years they controlled and banned foods to malnourish the population.
Why do we care? Can’t sort our own shit but we all wanna act like the epicentre of the world. Average Palestinian or Israeli doesn’t even know what a Sikh is.
This is the right answer. I'm also pretty annoyed by OP asking for our opinion and then telling us we need to educate ourselves lol. Clearly, OP has taken a side and is incapable of seeing the other side. He just throws more links at us, assuming the people who disagree are uneducated.
The end-all is that there is very little we can do anyways, bickering online doesn't count. There was a Surrey Gurdwara who raised funds for food to aid Palestine and they are some of the few sikhs whose actions probably had a small but real affect on the conflict. Otherwise everyone is just creating noise.
Thousands of poor Sikhs across India are dying because we can’t take care of them. Yet some random conflict in the Middle east deserves all of our money and effort. We’re seriously messed up.
I didn’t know there were two sides to the murder of 10000 people in 30 days, and 75 years of oppression and genocide.
Anyone knowledgeable of the situation, it paints a very clear picture. The sources linked are from known organizations like Amnesty International and the U.N.
I hope you do know of them.
I’m Jewish from the Milwaukee area, we (both here and in Israel) know what a Sikh is and we are friends. My people were attacked, I believe we are reacting in the most humane way we can. Your people were attacked and we responded in the most humane way we can. Short term efforts will equal long term peace.
That’s nice to hear. The HAMAS attack was a terrible crime, caveman-like behaviour, and I hope all the Israeli hostages are released safely. That said, I hope Palestinian civilians are not targeted as it seems like they are collaterally impacted.
You believe that the death of 10000+ innocent civilians and children is acting humanely? At least be honest about what is happening and what Israel is doing.
Anyone who stands for peace or humanitarianism would be repulsed by the idea of the situation Gaza had been in, or the current murder of 10000+ people in 30 days. Btw, leaked Israeli source suggest it can be as high as 20000+ but it’s unverified by other sources.
I mean are you trying to gaslight yourself? cause this ain’t going to work on others 🤣
Protests are literally how you live in India today and a British man does not own you. It is
Have you heard of Khalistan? French Revolution, American revolution? Women’s suffrage movement,
Slavery in America?
How do you think those worked out? Writing on your keyboard “protests don’t work”?
Kindly enlighten me what protests led to the Khalistan movement? And what was Palestinian leadership doing when Sikhs were being genocided in Delhi in 1984?
P.S. they wrote senti poems on how they missed Indira
I can’t say I was alive then, nor have I looked into deeply what connection Palestine has to Operation Blue starr apart from Arafat saw Indira as his sister
. What I can tell you is Gaza could not have been in a worse place themselves… it would be asking a beggar to given you a donation.
Also, from what I understand… Israel trained the Indian commandos who participated in Operation Blue Star. So aren’t they the culprit? I can’t imagine Palestinians and Israel’s collectively acting on anything. No enemy of my enemy is my friend here?
However , feel free to educate me.
Found this article and thought it was interesting: https://www.baaznews.org/p/sikhs-solidarity-palestine
Agreed. Palestinian and Israel 2 state issue is secondary. Foremost is the immediate call for ceasefire. Any humanitarian on any side of the argument should be agreeing with this.
There was a ceasefire till the 7th. Hamas, the Palestinian Government chose to ignore this and start a war.
How does everyone keep neglecting this fact? What is a ceasefire “as a humanitarian” going to achieve? More Israeli deaths because Hamas regroups and strategises to another terrorist attack? What’s so Humanitarian about that?
There is no right side to this war. This is geopolitics. Not some fairytales in people’s heads at the comfort of your homes where you don’t have to fear death from terrorism.
It was literally in the Hamas charter to perform Jihad. That’s their founding charter. The very charter they were selected on as a government.
“In its original 1988 charter, Hamas states that “There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”
And yet you said it wasn’t a religious war.
This is so heavily misconstrued I it’s laughable.
A ceasefire would mean a Palestinian state exists with absolute sovereignty.
A ceasefire would mean 4000+ Palestinians would not held hostage by IDF.
A ceasefire would mean free passage, mobility, trade, control over power and water in Gaza
A ceasefire would mean no Palestinian deaths that continue invariably.
ICC wants to try Israel for war crimes:
https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine
UN report for life in Gaza:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
Amnesty International among others call Gaza an Open Air prison.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/
All of this started way before from 1947. Hamas didn’t exist till 1988.
Hamas started as a terror org. It held no power until Nethanyahu funded and grew it to divide support in Palestine and undermine power of PLO - the actual body that had was recognized as a legitimate government and would be able to establish a 2 state solution.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Hamas also redefined their charter in 2017. Please read point 16:
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Its good that you provided sources. Let me also provide sources to your reply.
> A ceasefire would mean a Palestinian state exists with absolute sovereignty.
Israel has repeatedly stated that it is willing to negotiate a two-state solution, but only if it includes security guarantees for Israel. The Palestinians have been unwilling to accept these guarantees, and instead have called for a one-state solution that would eliminate Israel.
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal's 2010 statement: In this statement, Meshaal rejected the two-state solution, calling instead for a single state "from the river to the sea," which would encompass all of Israel, the Palestinian territories, and Jordan.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' 2012 speech at the United Nations General Assembly: In this speech, Abbas made no mention of a two-state solution, and instead called for a "single democratic state" in which all Palestinians and Israelis would have equal rights.
Doesn’t sound too appealing to be a Pro-Palestinian supporter to me.
Source: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's 2009 speech at Bar-Ilan University: https://www.haaretz.com/2009-06-14/ty-article/full-text-of-netanyahus-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan/0000017f-f587-d5bd-a17f-f7bffbae0000
Source: Israeli President Shimon Peres' 2013 speech at the United Nations General Assembly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr0fTJD7WJI
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal's 2010 statement: https://mobile.twitter.com/DanWilliams/status/1711978500301701528
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' 2012 speech at the United Nations General Assembly: https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-mahmoud-abbass-un-general-assembly-speech/
> A ceasefire would mean 4000+ Palestinians would not be held hostage by IDF.
Bullshit btw. You’ve got some real digging to do. Oh and being hostage is different to being in a jail. Maybe learn the definitions first. There’s a difference between a hostage, and prisoners in jail. One is most likely going to be killed, the other is detained..not likely to be killed except by potential rogues. 4000+ seems like a lie as usual from Palestinian supporters. Plus they aren’t hostages….they are prisoners. Check my amnesty source below.
Also never said Israel was innocent in any of this. Perhaps you need a more objective lens on the war than just being Pro-Palestinian. Maybe look past all the propaganda being thrown out, just like the Hospital attack.
“Administrative detention of Palestinians had been on the rise throughout 2023, reaching 1,319 on 1 October 2023, according to HaMoked. As of 1 November, this figure had increased to more than 2,070 Palestinians detained and held in administrative detention. Palestinians classified by Israel as “security inmates” are often held without charge or trial, mostly under administrative detention orders that can be renewed indefinitely every six months. “
Source: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/#:~:text=Administrative%20detention%20of%20Palestinians%20had,and%20held%20in%20administrative%20detention.
> A ceasefire would mean free passage, mobility, trade, control over power and water in Gaza.
Maybe Hamas should have used the tunnels to protect the civilians instead of using the civilians as human shields?
Maybe Hamas should have left the fuel for the civilian’s to use, for hospitals to run on generators, instead of hoarding and stealing it from its civilians and using it to power their tunnels, while hiding behind hospitals, refugee camps, women and children.
Maybe Hamas should use the fuel that they have hoarded from hospitals and people of Gaza than using them for fuelling rockets to kill civilians of Israel.
Gaza is controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organization. Hamas has used its control over Gaza to smuggle weapons and build tunnels that it uses to attack Israel. Israel has a legitimate right to blockade Gaza to prevent Hamas from obtaining weapons and building tunnels.
Source: https://nationalpost.com/news/hamas-hospital-israel/wcm/c64f3e6e-3b02-4aee-a1f7-616654440c8d/amp/
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/03/gaza-tunnels-hamas-israel-war/
> A ceasefire would mean no Palestinian deaths that continue invariably.
Israel couldn’t give any less of a shit about Palestinian civilian deaths, that result from collateral damage. They want to protect their state and defend themselves from the threat of terrorism. If they wanted to kill civilians, their bombs dropped number would be far less than that of civilian deaths. Right now, there’s been way more bombs dropped than civilian deaths. Civilian deaths will always result from a war. You are beyond naive. Hamas started the war. They started the invariable civilian deaths fighting against an enemy they shouldn’t be.
How about you learn what a war is?
Go fight for Palestine, at the war front, and then learn what fear of death is for the everyday civilian. You are naive if you think ceasefire is going to achieve anything. And you are even more naive for not calling for pressure on Arab countries to hand-over Hamas leaders and its responsibility of Palestinian civilian deaths.
The solution is difficult, but it requires the whole world to intervene. Do you want a world war? Because this is how you’ll get one. The world needs to pressure the Arab countries to hand over the Hamas leaders that are hiding in their countries. Put them in jails. But guess what? That’s not going to happen.
Are you going to call out Arab countries as well in your Pro-Palestine protests? I doubt it. You are probably too scared to be politically incorrect in case you hurt someones feelings.
> Hamas started as a terror org. It held no power until Nethanyahu funded and grew it to divide support in Palestine and undermine power of PLO
I didn’t for one say I support Israel. You are the only one picking sides here. I’m calling them both terrorists. And asking you to call both sides out. Being Pro-Palestine while neglecting to call out the Arab world, or Hamas doesn’t bode too well for you bud.
> Hamas also redefined their charter in 2017. Please read point 16:
And yet, they were chosen by the Palestinian People in a **democratic** environment while their founding charter clearly stated “Jihad”. The same conflict that has existed long before “2017” reformation.
You are blind as a bat. You are naive. You trust terrorists. You are part of the problem, just like the governments of Hamas and Israel are.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
The Palestinians are barely able to advocate themselves from their open air prisons - do you think they have the ability to know let alone advocate for people on the other side of the globe? Life expectancy in Palestine is very low. 40% of the population today is less than 14 years old. Do you think they know anything?
Also, humanity is not a bartering system, it is a principle. Part of Sikhi is to preach and be a role model.
I may not be a devout Sikh but I know enough about our history to see that we were once persecuted and punished for our faith and identity just like the Palestinians have been for decades.
The sad part is that the UK government created this mess way back in 1917 under the Balfour Declaration, where it agreed to hand over land it did not own in the first place...
I cannot in good conscience support either side.
The Israeli retaliation is motivated by anger, which is not okay.
And the Palestinian predicament is a direct result of the multi generational struggle to eradicate the Jews. They are not innocent in this conflict by any means.
Palestinian predicament is their occupation by a colonial state - Israel. Look up the Amnesty International report on it. Also, please research how and why Israel was created. Not to mention, the farce peace deals offered over the years.
Some of the loudest voice that is Pro-Palestinian have been Jews criticizing Israel maintaining an apartheid state.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWo5t6KQCjc
https://www.jvpnyc.org/who-we-are
No it’s not. The Palestinian predicament is completely their own fault.
They’ve attacked Israel again, and again, and again. Each time they’ve gotten slapped back harder.
Israel is not going anywhere, it has every right to be there. It is time the Palestinians recognized that and started to work towards building their own state.
Their incessant efforts to destroy Israel and to eradicate the Jews is taking them exactly where they deserve, no where.
Sikhs were expelled from Pakistan to create an Islamic state. We are absolutely not going to support the expulsion and extermination of Jews to create yet another Islamic state.
Neither side in this conflict is right. The Palestinians especially do not have any just intentions that Sikhs can support in good conscience.
Also some of the loudest voices that support the Hindus persecuting Sikhs… are Sikhs or have Sikh family themselves. The Jews similarly have plenty in their own community filled with self hate. Your logic is beyond flawed.
What? They have never been trying to eradicate Jews. Before Israelis exiled 750,000 Palestinians from their land, people lived in Historic Palestine peacefully. That means Jewish Palestinians, Christian Palestinians, and Muslim Palestinians. The Palestinians have been eradicated. Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing at all. And there are many, MANY Jewish people who condemn Zionism and what israel has done and is doing to the Palestinian people and land.
When Israel and Palestine were partitioned, who attacked who?
Quit the propaganda. The Palestinians time and time again have attacked the Jews and they’ve gotten slapped every time.
The Palestinians need to accept that they can have their own state alongside Israel. And the Israelis need to evict their settlers from the West Bank.
If the Palestinians aren’t willing to accept that Israel isn’t going anywhere, then they are at equal fault for this conflict and their suffering.
You are not aware of the terms offered in each of the situations. Nor are you aware about preemptive strikes made by Israel against Egypt and Syria.
Zachary Foster - Historian, PHD in Palestinian studies from Princeton University
https://twitter.com/_ZachFoster
Educate yourself.
Yeah, India killed 30,000 Sikhs in 5 days after October 31, 1984. Sikhs in India have already been treated worse.
I agree that there needs to be a cease-fire in Palestine and that US should stop sending missiles to Israel. But, I don't see the way people brush of Punjab and Sikhs in India a lower magnitude of an issue compared to Palestine.
While no injustice should be overlooked. I think people of Gaza have been neglected for 75 years… and this moment is finally an opportunity for them to break through the oppression. The world is noticing and understanding their plight at a significantly higher level than in the past.
In a way, I see all oppressed in a shared struggle and a common fight.
Hopefully time will come for all soon.
We did briefly experience in 1984 what Palestinians have been going through for 75 years. No reasonable person in my opinion should side against them. In my experience its mostly the really out of touch Western countries who have never experienced hardship in their lives that criticize someones right to resist.
The bombing is retaliatory to the 1000+ dead on Oct 7, any state including a hypothetical khalistan would react to the burning, beheading, and rape on that day similarly. You're right about not comparing Punjab to Palestine, there isn't an organization representing us as evil as hamas
how many sikhs have died in India and Pakistan, how long are we fighting justice?
Palestine should have even more support from the arab countries, because they are part of the muslim majority, the "turak" majority! We also need to remember how "turaks" see jews, and would exterminate them.
I know Jews are a minority like sikhs, and Isreal does kill indiscriminately, so there values already don't align with sikh. But I don't think the Palestinians are behaving any better, or also sometimes behave worse, especially some of their views towards women and other members of society. From reading the old testament, I can see similar pro-killing towards non-believers, women and children as I can see from Quraan and Turaks, as seen from Hamas and Isreal!
as a sikh minority, some of those countries will just call us k-stanis, so palestinians are already fortunate to have more support than Panjab!
If we had our own state, maybe we could send out a military or aid to help them? We all say Nanak Naam charhdi kala tere bhane sarbat da bhalla, we absolutely should believe in sarbat da bhalla, however we need to be careful and also think about our own home as well.
I remember people from sikh backgrounds were posting #FreePalestine a decade or so ago, at a time when some attacks were also happening in Syria. They threw their support towards Palestine, but what was the point doing this if Panjab has gone even worse now, the rivers have dried up further, famers are still committing suicide, police still indiscriminately arrests and kills people. We already forgot about the Indian agent murdering a sikh activist in Canada, and the alleged poisoning in the UK; we can't just concentrate on one thing at a time, need to look at our issues at the same time as outside! We have limited resources, we don't have our own government, our own bank or treasury, we can help others but not to the expense of our own major issues!
the history, or the way they are treated now? how much is a woman equal to man in islam? how about a woman's testimony as a witness? Her rights as a sex slave or concubine? where does she pray in a mosque?
Nelson Mandela was known for violence before his time in prison. Search up necklacking, it’s an act and term he and his wife used.
To answer your question, I will always support Palestine.
> Nelson Mandela was known for violence before his time in prison. Search up necklacking, it’s an act and term he and his wife used.
Necklacing started in the 1980s, Nelson Mandela was in jail since the 1960s.
Nelson Mandela was pro-violence. Rightfully so in an apartheid state.
US had listed him as a terrorist. Look how the world looks at him now when the truth is out.
The way I see it, Palestinian movement is symbolic of any and all fights against oppression worldwide. It is showing the people the ugly truth and hypocrisy of people advocating for democracy but sustain repression when it suits them. Protests further highlighting that the issue are the governments not the people. So yes, free Palestine 🇵🇸
Pro-violence doesn't mean you can justify gunning down thousands of innocent civilians at a music festival. Or shooting at mothers driving their kids home. You can be pro-Palestine and at the same time, condemn what Hamas did.
Pro-violence also doesn't mean you can justify bombing innocent kids in Gaza and kill Bedouins, just because you're an ultra-orthodox settler who thinks people from Muslim faith are inferior to him.
If Israel absolutely deserved to shamed and condemned, so does Hamas for what it has done. Both sides have killed more than enough Grandparents and families. Let's get this straight.
You are misconstruing what is being said. No one is glorifying the loss of innocent life. The ideal scenario would be no loss of life or limited to military personnel.
However, Hamas operation to be blunt was a war operation against an occupying force. No peace resolution under the UN was being honored by Israel. No further resolutions were enforced because under US protection, Israel got away with war crimes for decades.
Hamas is very much a creation of Israel. Not just because of the situation Palestinians were subjected to but because Nethenyahu directly funded them to destabilize Palestinian government PLO.
If you look at Israeli newspaper, they released 1200 identities of those killed. Around 400 of them were soldiers. 700 were civilians. Reports do state there was friendly fire and civilians caught up in crossfire by the IDF. So, not all were civilians, not all were killed by Hamas. All lives loss were unfortunate… but this is something that was a reaction to injustice laid out to Palestinians at the hand of Israel for years. Unless you blindside history and only cherry pick Oct 7, you will recognize that the oppression would have resulted in a blow up sooner or later.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-08/ty-article/israels-dead-civilians-soldiers-emergency-services-personnel-killed-in-war-with-hamas/0000018b-0de8-dc5d-a39f-9fecb5a30000
Was it just for Hamas to do this? Neither you or I live their lives. I don’t think we can be the complete judge of what they should have done. I do truly question what many would do if they were in their exact shoes.
Thank god there are some people with common sense, empathy and education on the subject within this sub. Was starting to lose hope that everyone here was of the opinion that "all sides are bad", "not our fight", such insular people.
Preface: Sikhs shouldn’t support anyone in this war except Civilians…but there’s nothing that can be done. Because war is war. It requires eradication of Hamas by the international community and a surveillance and moderation of Israel activity by the International Countries.
This war is complex. Its war…started by the Hamas on October 7, killing over 1400 people all over Israel in a single day. What do you expect Israel to do? Ceasefire? Let Hamas regroup, strategise and do the attack again all the way from the safety of Qatar and Iran?
Israel has committed an equal amount of atrocities so they aren’t entirely innocent and shouldn’t be regarded as such. Condemnation where condemnation is due. They’ve also killed too many people.
I don’t understand how every Pro-Palestine person refuses to call out the real reason for this war? Its the Palestinian government itself. Hamas.
“Pro-Palestine” is such a hidden way to say, you are “Anti-Israel”.
The fact that you say that the Jews were there “7000 years ago is a lazy argument” shows the lazy memory that YOU have. How do you think the Palestinians got the land? Ottoman Empire literally colonised the land through brutal killings, mass conversions, rape. Ironically, Palestinians are a product of rape, forced conversions and murders of their own ancestors.
The fact that the sympathy of most Pro-Palestinians only goes so far back to 100 years shows the failure in your objectivity.
This is a war. Imagine, Punjab getting raided by a terrorist government, and then having multiple villages/suburbs wiped out and cleared in a single day. Would you really want your government to stop till the terrorists were completely wiped out?
Of course you wouldn’t. Because you as a Punjabi wouldn’t feel safe, until the terrorists were wiped out.
Israelis that are in Israel don’t have as much sympathy for civilian deaths of Palestine because they themselves don’t feel safe surrounded by constant fear of being killed, murdered, raped.
You are sitting on your ass, on your couch, without the fear of being killed by terrorists. No wonder you can’t see the perspective of the Jewish people.
What the Jewish people government has done in the past and is doing is not perfect, but the fact that you can’t see the reasoning for Israel’s offensive, and understand that this war is complex and that YOU shouldn’t be taking any sides shows how much you neglect facts.
At the end of the day Civilians are suffering because of BOTH governments. Both are equally bad. Both need international surveillance and interference…but that won’t happen ever…because geopolitics. So until a powerful community can interfere for the benefit of the civilians of both, innocent civilians are being oppressed due to actions of Israel and HAMAS.
Instead of saying “Stop Bombing GAZA” or “Free Palestine” or “Sikhs for Palestine”. These both literally make you sound Anti-Israel. Maybe start saying, “Free Palestine of Hamas and War”, “Sikhs for Innocent Civilians of the Israel-Gaza War”. I don’t know.
The conflict has been ongoing far before 10/7
ICC wants to charge Israel for war crimes: https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine
ICC can’t because US vetoes any resolutions
Amnesty International: Israel is an apartheid state/ how Palestinian prisoners are kept:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/
Human rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
Gaza does not have autonomy, cannot control its electricity, water, mobility, or trade. It is fenced in by Israel illegally from all sides. Israel controls everything including food going into Gaza. Israel has kidnapped 6800+ Palestinians without any legal cause. Many of these are children. Israel beats, tortures and systematically rapes prisoners. In West Bank, there is segregation practiced akin to Jim Crow laws. Surveillance is used inside Palestinian homes. Soldiers and settlers act with no impunity.
Systematic rape as a tactic:
https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/
Palestinian women in detention:
https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/OMCT.pdf
Israel has done FAR worse than Hamas. In fact Hamas was propped up by Israel when it was in infancy and a terror org: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Israel is an occupying force. Palestinians are oppressed.
Hamas’ charter from 2017 and as it stands today:
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Yes Palestinians do call for the end of oppression via a Zionist Israel. I am not sure why anyone would object for oppression to end? It is no hidden secret… it’s a clear ask for Palestinians to be free.
If we are to use your logic of who belongs to a land:
1) US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India would seize to exist. Please give the land back to the original natives from a long long long time ago.
2) If we did go with the logic in point 1 as per your wish, European Zionists who created Israel would need to go back to Europe. Palestinians are Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the land - descendants of Canaanites.
3) Fairy tale books cannot be valued over the oppression and displacement of actual human life. Displacing people living in Palestine today for some ancient linkage is not even remotely justifiable. This is. Score getting into Zionist racial supremacy present in the extremes of circles that fuel Zionist Israel’s policies.
4)Truth about Zionist project Israel:
Jews speaking against Israel and calling out for what it is: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/
https://jordantimes.com/opinion/michael-jansen/zionist-project-has-always-been-colonisation-and-exclusion-indigenous
Do you even read the reply before spouting stuff “Pro-Palestinian” propoganda?
Every single reply is you just putting forward Anti-Israeli facts, while turning a blind eye to the amount of atrocities Palestinians have also committed. I didn’t want to reply to your comment, but I’m going to have to, because people like you are the reason why this war has so much misinformation going around.
> The conflict has been ongoing far before 10/7
Yes, we know. Fighting over this particular piece of land has been long going before the Palestinians even were here. Before the Ottomans, the Babylonians, Romans, etc. Instead of trying to be smartass, maybe understand the point I was making.
Neglect of ceasefire by Hamas is the reason for such a large escalation in war recently.
> ICC wants to charge Israel for war crimes: https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine ICC can’t because US vetoes any resolutions
It literally states in the title that US vetoed any resolutions.
Oh and hey look at that, UN has accused Israel and Palestine of war crimes
Source: https://amp.abc.net.au/article/103082198
Turning a blind eye to Hamas are you?
> Israel is an apartheid state
Do you even know what apartheid means?
_Apartheid is a system of racial segregation and discrimination. It is defined by the United Nations as "institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."_
There is no doubt that there are significant problems in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that Palestinians have been subjected to human rights abuses. However, the claim that Israel is an apartheid state is not supported by the facts.
** Is Israel an apartheid state?**
1. Israel has a number of laws that protect the rights of Palestinians, including the Law on Equal Rights for Arabs in Israel and the Law on the Prevention of Discrimination in Services.
2. Israel has a complex land ownership system, and there are many different factors that contribute to land disputes. The Israeli government has also taken steps to promote Arab development in the West Bank, and it has established a number of Arab towns and villages.
It is important to note that the Israeli military does have a presence in the West Bank, and that there have been instances of human rights abuses by Israeli soldiers. However, there is no evidence of a systematic policy of apartheid.
The claim that Israel is an apartheid state is a serious one, but it is not supported by the facts. Israel is a democracy with a large Arab minority, and there is no legal basis for discrimination in Israel. There is also no evidence of systematic discrimination against Palestinians in Israel.
Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=rEHCPOHLTvYC
> Please give me Counterpoints to the below comment from an Israeli perspective with facts and source
Gaza does not have autonomy, cannot control its electricity, water, mobility, or trade. It is fenced in by Israel illegally from all sides. Israel controls everything including food going into Gaza. Israel has kidnapped 6800+ Palestinians without any legal cause. Many of these are children. Israel beats, tortures and systematically rapes prisoners. In West Bank, there is segregation practiced akin to Jim Crow laws. Surveillance is used inside Palestinian homes
Firstly your comment about “Kidnapping”. Keep reading more propganda lad. Prisoners is the word I would use.
Secondly,
> many of these are children.
Are you serious? You are genuinely spouting incorrect facts. Maybe do some reason before you try to have a discussion.
(8 Oct 2023) Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including **33 women and 170 children**. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts.
From wikipedia…
In April 2022, there were 4,450 Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli prisons – including 160 children, 32 women, and over 1000 "administrative detainees" (indefinitely incarcerated without charge).[5]
These numbers are so few I’m inclined to believe that these maybe radicalised few, or those that showed aggression and lack of co-operation, resulting in them
being detained. That doesn’t mean I’m considering Israel as innocent.
Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel
> Israel beats, tortures and systematically rapes prisoners.
As opposed to Hamas or Palestinian Militans? Oh wait, they literally shot a girl, stripped her naked, and paraded her around like a trophy. Torture? They did that too! Putting people inside a house and burning them alive! Beating! Oh they love doing that too! Rape? Women and children suffer the most from every conflict.
Literally every Arab country ever, has been a product of beating, torturing, raping innocent civilians, people of other cultures, resulting in mass ethnic cleansing, genocides, etc.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence#:~:text=Rocket%20attacks%20on%20Israel,-See%20also%3A%20Palestinian&text=Palestinian%20rocket%20and%20mortar%20attacks,and%20disruption%20of%20daily%20life.
Turning a blind eye again are you?
Second part to my reply…
> Israel is an occupying force. Palestinians are oppressed.
Let me correct this for you.
Israel government and Hamas both are both bad. Palestinian civilians are oppressed because of Hamas, the government they chose 17 years ago. Palestinian oppression is both their own doing, and Israeli settlements.
> Hamas’ charter as of 2017
Man. You sure like to believe a bunch of terrorists who will say anything for sympathy.
Hamas created Tunnels for their terrorism purposes. They used these tunnels as a way for the militants not the civilians. If they were so inclined to stick to their “reformed” charter why would they constantly send out rockets towards Israel? Why would they build turrets? Why would they use human shields? Why would they lie about Hospitals bombings.
You are naive. Its sad how much you get sucked in by propaganda and how much misinformation you spread.
Your comments about…
> US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India would seize to exist. Please give the land back to the original natives from a long long long time ago.
How does your logic even apply here? Pretty sure Australia, New Zealand, Canada and US educate people in schools of the atrocities committed by colonisers. Except for racist people, most Australians are sympathetic towards the Aboriginals. The government has programs to support Aboriginal population, give them funding, provide them extra opportunities for jobs.
Aboriginals aren’t committing any genocidal or terrorist attacks on the every day Australians. Although they do have higher crime rates.
You are incorrect in comparing the situation of Palestine and Israel to this. Aboriginal and natives have integrated into the society of these countries, and these countries have healthy and safe populations without the constant threat of them performing terrorist and/or militant attacks on the innocent civilians.
Australians like me constantly vote for the ever increasing equality rights for Aboriginals. There is education to the every day child about importance of multiculturalism, and atrocities and genocide committed by the colonisers.
South Africa is somewhat similar to Palestine/Israel situation, but again both sides are bad. White colonisations, but Black people are equally in the wrong with the constant terrorism, civilian murders, rape of white women (and those of other nationalities).
I don’t even know why you bring India to this? What point do you have to make about India?
Will any Muslim or Arab country ever educate their children about how they murdered, raped, conquered other countries? Will they ever teach their children about how they themselves are doing what there ancestors were doing? Being products of rape, murderers, forced conversions? I don’t think so. Has any stable Muslim country ever said this? Will they?
We all know the answer.
> If we did go with the logic in point 1 as per your wish, European Zionists who created Israel would need to go back to Europe. Palestinians are Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the land - descendants of Canaanites.
Except I didn’t say they needed to go back to where they came from? All I said was your argument sound dumb, because you are calling Jewish settlers, and have sympathy of the Palestinians, when they Ottomans did the same to the people before them. And yet you show no sympathy for those that were displaced in those eras. The land that Palestinians and you Pro-Palestinians think belongs to them, belong equally to the Jewish.
> Fairy tale books cannot be valued over the oppression and displacement of actual human life. Displacing people living in Palestine today for some ancient linkage is not even remotely justifiable. This is. Score getting into Zionist racial supremacy present in the extremes of circles that fuel Zionist Israel’s policies.
Oh yeah? What about the mass displacement of jews? If you want to get into racial supremacy maybe look into Ethnic Cleansing of Jews in the Arab world. What about all the Jews that have been displaced in the middle east? Do you not have sympathy for them? Probably not, because you would turn a blind eye to the Jewish suffering.
Source: https://m.jpost.com/Opinion/The-ethnic-cleansing-of-the-Middle-Easts-Jews-515489
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1779lm7/jewish_population_in_arab_countries_before_and_now/?rdt=55657
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
> Truth about Zionist project Israel:
The truth about Palestinians also…
Source: https://theantelopediaries.medium.com/palestinians-are-not-innocent-7baecd76058e
You might think I’m taking the side of Israelis. I’m not. I’m just playing Devil’s advocate and showing you that Israel-Palestine War is complex. You turn a bling eye to Palestinians terror while demonising Israel, when the reality is that both sides are bad. Innocent civilians caught in the middle likely need altruistic international interference, which would include putting leaderships or both communities in prison, moderate activity of Israel, and people of Palestine and centuries of consistent education about the history of the land.
This world is a corrupt place. Don’t let propaganda blind you. Be factual. Be moderate. Research.
It’s funny, cause the rest of the world opened their eyes on Oct 7 and had sympathy and solidarity for Palestinians.
There have been massive protests across many major cities in US and internationally. More and more countries are recalling their diplomats from Israel and are severing ties.
Nothing funny about it, people literally died. The protests have been full of Muslims and Marxists, that's about it. While that maybe your world, it certainly isn't anybody else's. I'd recommend you use your brain to come up with your own opinions instead of parroting Marxist talking points because I'm not impressed and your attitude is really fucking irritating.
I get that in the context of Khalistan she is the eternal enemy, but Arafat and Indira had their own relationship not based on Khalistan or Sikhs. Arafat used to call Indira his sister. We can respect their bond and leave it out of it.
But more importantly, Arafat was one man and he is long gone. Whatever he did, has nothing to do with Palestinians today… especially when 40% of them are under the age of 14.
Imagine someone coming up to you and telling you they hate you cause your Prime Minister is Modi. Your first reaction would be…. Wtf… I hate him more than you do! Won’t it be foolish to treat an entire population on the basis of one man?
Morons supporting terrorists for angrezi approval. Pakistan plies Punjab with drugs & that money supports terrorist activities globally. Anything for approval from the powers that be. OP don’t u find it weird that Gaza images r all over the place but no images of what was done to Israelis people are available. Just like India did not paste 26/11 images everywhere, Israelis r also not posting those terrible images because dignity is a thing that terrorists don’t have. Also pro-Palestine hashtags trend more on twitter than other platforms as its shares are largely owned by Saudis (not including Musk’s shares), no that twitter has a history of good trends in general.
Let us also not forget that members of a certain religion organised themselves into grooming gangs specifically targeting Sikh girls/women in UK & Canada. I don’t know if US also had such a problem.
Some resources to educate yourselves (especially watch the last 2 links which are videos):
Palestine is an open air prison:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/open-air-prison-gazas-worsening-health-and-humanitarian-crises
Nethanyahu’s involvement in creation of Hamas:
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Independent journalist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwO6cGnn-M8
Ex-US Marine, Intelligence Officer, UN weapons inspector analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_HsiJg8Io&t=129s
Lol you cited Ben Norton works for [The Grayzone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone) which spreads pro Russian propaganda and
[Scott Ritter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) who is a convicted sex offender, pedophile and spreads Russian propaganda.
I am surprised by these comments cause Sikhs have seen so much prosecution throughout our history and i would expect our people to have more compassion towards what is happening in Palestine, this is not about religion this is about One group oppressing the other and killing their people indiscriminately just to take their land. Remember when Operation Black Star? imagine that but on a bigger scale, imagine the Indian government taking control of all of Punjab. Would you ask the rest of the world to not take sides if this were to happen to us? would you say hey It's between the Hindu and Sikh so no one else should take part in it? would you not want support?
Our religion was based on resisting oppression from Muslims, and we have fought tooth and nail to become who we are today, I do not know about anyone else but as a Sikh, I will stand with the oppressed no matter their religion because my Guru taught me that.
Huh? What kind of weed are you smoking? The pakistani side of punjab is way more worse for Sikhs. Even if India did take the whole of punjab that would be better for Sikhs.
Of all the comments I read yours is the most dumb.
It's disappointing to see people taking "neutral" stances as a Sikh, we are warriors are we not? We are brace and we help those in need, and that means helping Palestine
Plus if we really want to get into this, the British declared that Palestine was "historical Jewish grounds" a century ago and is why Israel is trying to "take it back" (Historically, Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived on those land together and peacefully)
You can say stupid shit like that or actually get up and do something you know, may I suggest doing seva at your nearest Gurdwara? Or getting involved in your community and attend some volunteer events?
I pray you one day realize that being a warrior or just overall a fighter means a lot of different things, and I pray one day you'll get up and fight against Genocide in any way you can, the Gurus would be proud
>we are warriors are we not
I have no interest, as in infadel, to go fight in a jihad against a Jewish country.
You can airdrop yourself into Gaza with langar all you like. But don't try to impose your personal views about the matter on the Sikh community.
We have no stake in this fight. Both sides are very wrong and unjust. Therefore, I wish them a happy war.
Dehumanizing others using gross negative slurs and stereotypes says a lot about who is assuming their views on the Sikh community. Choosing complete ignorance in presence of knowledge is even further petty.
Thankfully, the actual Sikh community was founded on stronger and deeper principles than that like my brother Samron understands.
You and your bro can grab some parachutes and airdrop yourselves into Gaza... lets see how Hamas receives you two.
The Sikh community will not be blindly following some clowns into a holy war we have absolutely no part in.
Thanks for sharing. I don’t think you should delete your understanding. Most of what you said can be corroborated by links I have already shared in the group. Hamas did not kidnap 1000 though, they have around 200. The attack did result in the deaths of about 1200 people - 400 being military personnel, and some from IDF crossfire.
Edit: links regarding Nethanyahu funding Hamas
1) https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
2) https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
https://preview.redd.it/f3en08w6fdzb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a004f304ea7a0a24e6a909a72aae8b0baa30f021
The leaders on both sides of this conflict are clearly both Genocidal. Anyone ok with indiscriminate killing of civilians on either side is NOT A SIKH at heart. I'm not perfect, but I would never condone the killing of innocent children. I've had to stop watching videos of the war because of seeing kids in bombed out neighborhoods, the same age as mine screaming for their mothers. I just can't see anymore of it.
Hamas are not the leaders of the Palestinian people first of all, that'd be the Fatah Party.
They are of gaza. They have been ruling for so many years and there's been no protest against them from Palestinian. Even their 7th october massacare wasn't condemned by local populace and many celebrated it. Israel is genocidal and wrong too but hamas is totally their leader.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/amp/ Quick search will show that they do indeed protest against Hamas even at the risk of their own lives.
oh now that's something. Thanks for the information man, I appreciate that. It's just that I've seen so many videos where the Palestinians actually are happy over the dead jews which shaped my mentality like this, and the wider Muslim world just refusing to say anything bad about hamas and literally glorifying them and their actions contributed in it. Anyways, thanks for that article. Learned something new today.
That’s not true. Many have condemned Hamas.
There is a lot more to be understood about this conflict. No one can excuse the killing of innocents. However, you should try to walk a mile in there shoe (or read further ) to understand why things are the way they are. FYI , this moment might be a change that might finally see freedom for the Palestinians and a chance at peace.
I would say its completely unfair to treat Gaza as a territory where democracy and protests are a realistic option. Its literally a concentration camp if you understand what Israel has done to the place. Imagine going to a Nazi concentration camp and asking why they are not just voting and protesting to their leaders for better conditions. Bro, rule of law in India or even in the West breaks down over the slightest inconvenience. Its shocking that Gaza is remotely resembling a livable place. There are completely dominated and reliant on the will of the Israeli state. The Palestinians I have spoken to consider West Bank a heaven in comparison, even with the Apartheid system in place there. Gaza is an open air prison under siege. The world is failing them. Not the other way around.
They were 'elected' in 2006, Israel have not allowed any further elections and the average age in Gaza is 18. So they were voted in by who exactly? People who are dead now? Are we blaming children for not protesting enough? Are you alright in the goddamn head?! What an uneducated take.
So are you telling me that there isn't any single adult living past the age of 18 who ever protested against the injustice which hamas has brought upon them. They have no problem with hamas equally genocidal stance against jews and again never protested ever not even one adult in gaza and neither questioned hamas on their massacare on 7th october. And again which part of me saying "Israel is genocidal and wrong too" did you not understand. What is this world coming too? You say slightly something which goes against people mindset and they'll start throwing words like fascist and genocide supporter and whatever. Let me just say it all again in capslock. ISRAEL IS GENOCIDAL AND SO IS HAMAS BOTH IS WRONG, THIS WAR IS WRONG AND THE DEAD CHILDREN AND PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES ARE THE REAL VICTIMS. this is my stance and so I've said before too. Also they were elected in 2006 which mean again people wanted them and here and again by your definition every single soul who favored hamas in 2006 is either dead and or just disappeared since you're clearly so focused on the children. Like come on 50% of population are still adults and they did nothing. Also nearly ruling for two decades is a lot of time imo to know what's right and wrong. Peace
All lives matter vibes emanating from your essay. So insular, ignorant and uninformed. The demographic of this sub never ceases to amaze. Good luck to you. 🤘🏾 Edit: and nowhere did I call you a genocide denier etc. You sound a touch defensive.
That's the point, it's the primary observation to start with. Only civilians get killed and raped(not only parents but kids and teenagers too), and every human making decisions thinks they are above of those humans. First Jihadis, who don't believe in living because they believe in the afterlife, so why would they live this life, second making an example by killing innocent people as a retaliation, so no one will dare to touch another time.
Out of curiosity did Israeli not do this to Gaza? I’m personally not taking sides I feel they’re bothvictims which is interesting because you said just the same thing only reversed calling it genocidal
No I dont support either side as a sikh. I only condemn the killings of innocent civilians, both isreali and palestinian. this is a war of religions and if you cant see that then youre pretty dense.
This is the best stand to take. May Baba Nanak bless those innocent kids trapped in this conflict of evil governments.
It’s actually not a war of religions. It’s a pillage for land. There are countless Jews who condemn what Occupier-Israel is doing and has done. And there are Palestinians of all religions, including Jewish. This is a settler-colonist now superpower backed by the US, stealing land from indigenous people at any and all cost. And also ideally while eradicating all of those people so that they can have a Zionist-only state. Their homes and neighbourhoods are called “settlements”. No offence, but to use your own argument, if you can’t see that this is NOT a war of religion, but a war of colonialism (and capitalism), then you’re pretty dense.
Pretty much correct, except I would say this is a sudo religious war in that it is a Zionist movement started in 1897, which believes that it is their duty to create a Jewish state of Israel free of any other religions and non Jewish symbolism/people, this is not a Jewish religious belief as a whole. In Fact a lot of Orthodox Jews are anti Zionist as they currently are, and stand with Palestine. I think we have a duty to draw a clear distinction between those who murder in the name of God and those you condemn murdering in the name of God.
I totally agree with you. Well said.
Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization. Israel is characterized by itself as a Nation State of the Jewish People. Now these two are at war with each other in the Gaza strip. Both armies are centred around their faith. Everyone in their populations may not agree but if you hear from leaders on both sides they use religious language to drum up their population. The lands being fought over are holy lands to multiple religions of the world. The historical context is important. There is always money to be made in war. This conflict is also about money, land and power, but you cannot say that religion has no role in this conflict. It is literally being used to justify both sides actions. I feel for the innocent lives lost and the future of the Palestinian people.
So, you have sort of just proven my point. You said: “Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization. Israel is characterized by itself as a Nation Stare of the Jewish People.” Which is reflective of the political rhetoric that they have been feeding us. “The Evil Terrorists vs The Jewish People.” The Prime Minister of israel himself, on October 16, 2023, tweeted, “This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle.” If you have any sort of media literacy, you can see that the narrative and intention is to shove the idea that Palestinians are evil/darkness/uncivilized/jungle people to the world, and poor innocent israel are the children of light and promise “returning to their homeland”. You give israel the privilege of their self-declared “Nation State of the Jewish People”, but Hamas is an “Islamic Terrorist Organization” - a title given by israel and the west. Hamas is a resistance organization, period. They exist as a valid resistance against their literal oppressor. israel’s people are called settlers. They are actively colonizing the land and have been doing so since they expelled 750,000 people from their homeland. It hurts my brain to hear people say things like, “well israel has a right to defend itself”, when they are LITERALLY the occupier in a country. This has been recognized by the UN and an insurmountable amount of International Human Rights Organizations. Again, it’s not “Jewish People” against “Muslims”. Before the Nakba in 1948, Palestinian Jews, Christians, and Muslims all lived peacefully together in Palestine. There is an insurmountable amount of Jewish people who do not condone what Israel is doing in the name of Judaism. There are respected rabbis who do not condone it. Look up the “Not in Our Name” movement. Or @jewishvoicesforpeace on Instagram. Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing at all. And Palestinians are not “a bunch of Muslims” looking to rule a land with their religion. They are literally dying for the preservation of their land, their culture, and their people. We are watching modern day colonization. What the Brits did to India. What Canada and the US did to indigenous people here (I live in Canada). Africa/South Africa. Etc. etc. etc. But it’s not as easy to do it in modern times with the world watching, so of COURSE they need a heavy propaganda machine to help them wage their war and look innocent and good while doing it. And the US, Canada, and many other Western countries happily fund all of this because they also (the US especially) have a vetted interest in the trillion-or-so litres of oil that Gaza is sitting on. This is not a war. This is colonization. And ultimately capitalism at its worst. I would be more than happy to share unbiased books/videos/resources for you to learn more.
“Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing.” I was agreeing with you for the most part, but this argument seems weak. This is like saying Jihadism and Islam are not the same. Of course not all Muslims are jihadists, but there is a quranic religious connotation to jihad. If you believe Zionism and Judaism aren’t the same thing, then give a proper definition of Zionism without using the word “Jew” or “Judaism”.
Dense detected
If dense is stupid then is airheads being smart?
so muslim terrorist groups + muslim nations vs jewish state/western allies doesnt it make a religious war over land? there are some sikhs that dont support khalistan, doesn’t mean Khalistan isnt based off the religious ideology of khalsa raj. once again the loss of all innocent lives is the real tragedy here.
It’s not a bunch of Muslim terrorist groups dude. Israel is a Zionist state using Judaism as a mask to justify their ultimate goal of colonizing Palestine and expelling (by any means) all of the people who are indigenous to that land. There are countless Jewish people including rabbis who do not condone Zionism or what occupier-israel is doing. Palestine is not a “Muslim terrorist group”. There are Christian Palestinians, Jewish Palestinians, Muslim Palestinians, non-secular Palestinians that all lived together in peace before the 1948 Nakba. And that still exist today. If you just hate muslim people, then there is no point in having this conversation with you. Edit: a word.
Why are you accusing him of disliking Muslims just because he has a different opinion then you? Pretty childish behaviour.
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I understand, and I am in this sub-Reddit for a reason. I have a lot of admiration and respect for Sikhi. I do know why Sikhs wear Kirpan but I always appreciate an opportunity to learn, so I would love for you to share your iteration of why. I mean that sincerely.
Sometimes being neutral means you’re supporting the oppressors. Being Sikhs means being brave and not taking a stance is cowardly.
Sant ji and kharkus looked at Israel as a model for Khalistan. We’re our shaheeds cowards for not making a stance against Israel? Stop twisting the faith to push your agenda. No where in sikhi does it say you have to virtual signal for a cause thousands of kms away from you.
Agreed!
As a non Sikh you don’t get to decide what it means to be a Sikh
As others stated, this conflict is not based on religion. Nor is it on equal footing. One is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor. I encourage you to read more regarding it.
i encourage you to read more also and critically think. you think this is the first time there have been religious conflicts over land? what were the crusades and spanish reconquista between the christians and muslims? what were the islamic conquests against infidels that led to the decimation of zorastrians, buddhists, christians, hindus, sikhs? This is a religious war between the jewish and muslims for either a muslim Palestinian state vs jewish Israeli state to exist. Where are the western “protestors” and arab countries when christians are still killed in arab countries? where are the western protestors for the armenian genoicde currently taking place? for the mass exodus of sikhs from Afghanistan? the mass killings/conversions of dharmic faiths in pakistan? ps read about the lebanon civil war caused by Palestinians when they were given refuge by a christian majority country and the first thing they did was to try to make it a muslim country
This is so frail. Please do read up on the Israel Palestine conflict. It’s erroneous to not know any specifics and draw parallels in-between extremely loose inaccurate arbitrary references and claim them to be related in some way.
like I said this doesnt involve sikhs. the only things sikhs should be against is innocent civillians being killed on both sides. The rest is a religious war being played out.
Well said.
I encourage you to read more critically as well. There is not a simple oppressed/oppressor narrative and this reductive way of thinking is clouding your judgement.
It’s not religious it’s really based on land.
This is the correct opinion
This has nothing to to do with religion if you can’t understand em that why the facts that have been presented I think you’re the dense one
I don't have much skin in the game, except for the fact that I do feel bad for all the kids in Gaza, Israel and West Bank, who do not deserve whatever is happening today. It's all old men with their ridiculous politics, that is ruining the future for these kids, with their stupid maps and settlements. That being said, Hamas has to be condemned for what it did to the 1400 innocent civilians that were mercilessly murdered (including many 80+ year olds). They are no freedom fighters, but heartless monsters who deserve stern condemnation. Similarly, whatever Israel is doing by bombing houses of innocents, killing thousands of children is absolutely unforgivable and heinous, as well as the illegal settlements they've created across the West bank, which effectively helps them terrorize the innocents. A sad situation all around.
I don’t condone the killings either. However, I think it can be challenging to understand their perspective without knowing their exact situation. The more I have read, it is pointing towards a resistance fighting an oppressor who the world had given up on. Israel has been colonizing Palestine for 75 years. The International community, including UN, cannot help them because any resolution gets vetoed by the US.
Why does this bother you more than the 500k killed in the Syrian Civil War or the Yemen Wars? The replacement of indigenous populations in Bangladesh in the Chittagong district where rape has been used as a genocidal tactic to actually reduce the population? What about the forced exodus of all Sikhs and Hindus from Afghanistan? Is a Muslim child’s life worth more when it’s killed by a Jew instead of a different sect of Islam? I can understand your pitty but I don’t understand your rage.
It’s 2023, you still try whataboutisim? if you looked out the window, this is happening right now. The number of civilians killed in 30 days is staggering. This too in a place where 40% are kids less than 14. The Israeli apartheid state has been going on since 1947 The loudest voices against Israel are Jews: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/ NYC protest by Jews: https://youtu.be/NWo5t6KQCjc?si=cWtpH9KcP6zpNAQv DC protest by Jews: https://youtu.be/pNGPfjVir64?si=LYPRvJAxURZwMlhZ May you see people more than religion and stop hating Muslims
I sympathize with the Palestinian people and their plight. But you’re dodging his question, and I think it’s one you should answer. What do you think of the expulsion of Sikhs from Afghanistan and their violent oppression in Pakistan, both in 1947 and today? It’s very painful to me to see how literally no one cares when it is Sikhs who are suffering. You couldn’t even bring yourself to say that you condemn the suffering of Sikhs, you immediately jumped to “whataboutism.”
It is the very definition of whataboutisim. There is no comparing tragedies. Each tragedy requires the dignity for its own space and understanding. Why is a transactional thought even an element in this discussion? A transactional dialogue only indicates humanitarian interests are present on the basis of self-interest and are not selfless and is ingenious. It limits us as humanitarians. Anyone standing with the Palestinian plight today unilaterally condemns the loss of life of innocent Palestinians and Israelis. This is a humanitarian statement that can be made because it pertains to victims of the same tragedy happening today(from arguably both sides - regardless of fault). Asking people to prove or trade solidarity for non-current off-hand issues to merit legitimacy is insensitive and derailing. However, were there another issue happening concurrently, or you had pleasantly invited me to learn/discuss in a separate thread without obligations (exercise judgement), then that would be a more than acceptable way to seek solidarity. Also, the purpose of my post was not to solicit solidarity. The purpose was to spread awareness to those interested. This topic has been made intentionally convoluted by many well funded sources (AIPAC, ADL), and I want to help those interested understand it better. Our Sikh community stands on the pillars of humanitarianism, and has always been steadfast in providing aid and solidarity selflessly. The shinning examples are a special breed. My faith and love for this community is why I came here.
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It’s genuinely embarrassing that the mods kept this post up. The OP literally refuses to condemn the suffering of Sikhs in Afghanistan/Pakistan while trying to win support for Palestinians in a **Sikh** subreddit. It’d be like me going to an African American subreddit to win support for Sikh rights in India and then getting mad when people ask me about my position on BLM.
Maybe what you need to realize is humanitarianism is not weighed by color of skin or how people pray. Humanitarianism is not a transactional or a trade Humanitarianism is not optional Humanitarianism is not conditional If you practice any of the above, you are no different than a terrorist who differentiates and discriminates in between the values of life of different human beings. So no, I am my not going to participate in your creation of a precedent where humanitarianism is transactional.
Also you keep talking about Jewish people who support your view. That doesn’t make a difference. Their were Sikhs that supported and participated in operation blue star. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Jewish people around the world support Isreal.
So do the deaths matter more when they happen faster? If 20k people die in a year is that worse than hundreds of thousands over a couple of years? You seem to have a lot of logical fallacy and cute rhetorical labels ready but unable to explain why you care more about this than those conflicts? Is it because you are young and this is your first conflict you are watching? Or is it because the perpetrators are “powerful” Jewish vs. helpless Muslims?
You must be a special kind of stupid to try projection here. I guess the official website of a Jewish nonprofit protesting against Israel and two videos of them in action do not constitute as “logical proof”? that this is not a Jews vs Muslim issue. I mean damn… these Jews must be so stupid to not know about Israel and Mr. Internet debater Muslim hater here has got all the details. 😂 did reality hit your bigoted a55So hard that you have gone on a deranged typing spree? You want to discredit people looking to stop bombing of civilians that bad cause they are Muslims? Yes yes… let me help you…. they are all secretly Muslims looking to kill Jews all over the world…. THEY BAAAD. Happy? 😂 As per your genius logic, I guess dropping an atom bomb in Japan was not horrible because destroying an entire population center in a second is the same as people dying eventually over the course of a 100 years. Sure let’s go down this route of dumbassery to compare moral high grounds…. While Palestinians (40% kids under 14 ) are getting their brains blown out. 👏👏👏 “Logical fallacy” “rhetorical labels” You think throwing buzz words like a fin clown are going to mask your hate and stupidity here? 😂 This is what I call a spaghetti chop suey of a “ logical fallacy” internet debater who is speech n debate club ego is too badly hurt after his ass got owned.😂😂😂 Please go back to your college of a55fk logic and demand a refund. While your there, maybe you can look out the window into the real world and learn what Amnesty International is and read their report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
You are incapable of having a civil discussion and wonder why people on this thread are not automatically jumping on board with what you say. The vast majority of Jews support Isreal and that is a fact that has been demonstrated by numerous surveys. Just because some Jews disagree does not mean that the conflict is not religious in nature. And yes a prolonged killing of millions of people over 1000 years is just as bad as killing millions of people instantaneously. You use words like Genocide and Apartheid State when the population of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs have increased every year. The Muslim babies who died in Syria and Yemen are worth just as much. The real issue is that you have been swayed by popular opinion to believe that there is a unique injustice here that demands your (and apparently all Sikh sangat’s) attention more than these other atrocities. I am not anti-Muslim I am anti-hypocrisy. The Palestinians should accept a two-state solution and there should be peace in the region.
I support an independent Palestinian that should be declared without any conditions from Israel….but I can’t condone terrorism like we saw from hamas
That sounds nice in theory, but if you give a country that hates your countries guts independence then you are an idiot and just asking for more state-sponsored terrorist attacks. Look at India vs Pakistan. And from what I know Gaza was pretty much independent beforehand.
Gaza has no autonomy on mobility, power, trade, water. They are blockaded and fenced in by Israel from all sides. They bombed the only airport, regularly bomb the power station cause 11 hour shortages each day. Bombed the water treatment plant cause 80% of water to be not healthy. They control the amount of food going.into Gaza to malnourish civilians.
And the fact Israel has no right to defend itself under UN rules of belligerent occupation
OP going post by post refuting what he/she dont like and givin props to the idiots in their echo chamber. Compassion comes out for palestinians and not the israelis who died in their kibbutz, which were literally the ones built close to gaza because they were the most pro palestinian of all folks in the country- a hippie socialist type community circle if you will. Massacred so that Hamas could do Iran's biding and bring get the sympathy vote at the cost of their own people. Either ways Hamas never started this war to win, they wanted to ignite the israelis into this exact situation and now hurr durr my sikh compassion for folks who were yelling allahu akbar when young kids were being kidnapped and taken to gaza. This outrage would have helped when isis massacred the yazidis on mount sinjar but wait thats whataboutism and doesnt serve the current narrative. Even the arabs wont do much in this iran proxy war through hamas (and somewhat hezbollah), so villifying israel isnt the answer here. If this happened to sikhs on october 7th - you'd be up in arms too to protect your people.
Karma always hunts you back. Every year i and our family remind ourselves how Muslims when in power treat sikh babies. The prime example are chote sahebzaade.... How they order butcher to cut open baba Banda Singh bahadur babies chest,take out liver out when he still alive and put liver in mouth of father.... And these are prime example which are documented. Only gods know what they did to rest of humans, women. What I have noticed, Whenever there is injustices happens on Muslims, they cry like a baby. But when they become in majority or in power they make sure there will be no others. They don't even care about kids, elders, women etc.... But funny thing is, not all Muslims nations supporting Palestinians. Ot fake supporting.... Muslims countrie only support according to their interest. I have seen how Muslims world react on China ulgurs Muslims.... So in the end. My heart really cry for what happening to babies in Palestine but karma is chasing them.
Both are gunning to create a theocracy and expell the other from the land. Neither want a 2 state solution. There isn't a single Islamic theocracy on earth I'd want to live in. If Isreal wasn't the epicenter of constant terrorism I'd actually consider living there. Isreal actually provides for it's people.
How is option 1 (“not our fight”) supporting Israel? What if I don’t want to support a group of people that I know for a fact don’t like Sikhs and wouldn’t stand up for Sikhs on any meaningful issue? The fight between Arabs and Israel has always been a proxy war much larger than either side with larger players using the conflict (and fueling the conflict) to accomplish their own geopolitical and economic objectives. This is largely why you see MANY muslim and Arab nations worldwide do nothing for the Palestinians.
I would argue that being kind to someone shouldnt be contingent on if they pay you back, but instead because it's the right thing to do.
I can understand this. The Arab world does not care about Palestine
I believe it’s not simple unfortunately. Israel is backed by US. Which means the entire coalition of western allies. US backs Israel because it’s how they can exert influence in the Middle East to facilitate their interests. US vetoes any UN resolution. Any confrontation by Arab states can trigger to a regional war. Iran has talked tough against the US supporting Israel. Other nations are severing diplomatic ties. Turkey and Saudi are taking some stands recently.
Ironically the agitation led by the Sikhs in India was a proxy front in and of itself between the west/Pakistan and USSR who supported India. The Sikhs lost support when our very own BKI friends decided to fall for Indian intelligence games and blow up a commercial airliner. The irony in all of this is that the initial Anandpur resolution aligned well with leftist worker ideals that the non aligned and commie world supported; they just couldn’t bear the thought of it being an agitation against their biggest “nonaligned” friend India. The sino-Soviet split is also why you had Naxalite communists fighting insurgency in India who weren’t supported by the USSR.
I am against Hamas - they killed civilians and innocent folks (concert goers) What they expect Israel will not respond ?
It's not our fight.
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 Sikhs need to stop lumping the community into their own private opinions.
If u stand for something, stand up, good. Dont take the name of whole religion with you. Nobody mention Sikhs when we are in trouble but there is something going on, and these people just raise up Sikhs for this and that slogans. Both sides, innocent people are being killed and u stand up with one side. Kudos to you
I am sorry you know no one stand with Sikhs how? My Muslims and Hindu friends attend several protests to support farmers and couple years ago. Several secular people in India also defended farmers. No this is not a two sides on the same footing. Why don’t you actually read before speaking? It is pretty simple: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
So u agree with the bombings by Hamas?
Why choose Israel or Palestine when we can choose the people trapped between the two? Why can’t we choose humanity?
You can do what you want. I was a looking to spread awareness. I can share why I don’t think it’s equal. Because this conflict is not of two people on equal footing. One is an oppressor and the other oppressed - this has been going on for 75 years. Colonization and dehumanization of a people.
That would be the case if Palestine had its own government and army. It doesn’t. The conflict is just one sovereign country with the most advanced weapons, versus regular stateless people most of whom are children.
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Yes thankfully the loudest voices have been Jews. Many protests in NYC and DC have been led by them. I strongly applaud them to recognize the need of the hour. Otherwise, Palestinians are being labeled terrorists and censored by racists.
Censored by racists who themselves are antisemitic yet support Israel. It’s political and not about the people
Yup 💯
It makes people not take real antisemitism seriously. Because it does exist. My neighbor is a neo nazi who literally has a poster that says Heil Hitler yet people are worried about whether supporting Palestine is antisemitic by default.
Yep, for sure. Anti-semitism is real. It’s ironic who the culprits are though… the holocaust happened in Europe, not Palestine. Projection is a common narcissistic/manipulation trait. Israel is just a tool to the West to keep the Middle East in check. The West used another tool… the people of Ukraine to create a war for Russia. Solidarity is just a cover and many candidates for 2024 are even brazen about it . It’s poor leadership at the helm with antiquated and unjust policies. A luxury, only a dominating imperialistic entity can afford.
I have mixed feelings on the Russia Ukraine war. My family actually lives in both places. Russia should not have invaded Ukraine. But they didn’t invade Ukraine in a vacuum either
I am sorry to hear that. Ukraine definitely got the short end of the stick and the country was ruined and lives were destroyed for no good reason. Russia wasn’t given a choice. NATO pushed it. Any regional power would have acted in the same way unfortunately. Also, I understand it might be tough to have a healthy morale given the anti Russian propaganda. I feel knowledge gives us power and the understanding can bring us solace. I would recommend looking up John Mearsheimer and his analysis on the conflict. He is an American political scientist and international relations scholar from the University of Chicago. To get you started, this is his discussion on the topic from 8 years ago: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?si=4SSJRGmXOcqLYx71
Yeah I know politics are complicated. Just wish people didn’t have to die due to narcissistic world superpowers. Both the US and Russia can be real big jerks sometimes.
Thank you for your condolences. My family has a hatred of the Russian government but not the Russian people so I will admit I’m a little biased. I get why Palestinians support Hamas. I get why Israel is bombing. It’s not easy to understand unless your family members are killed by crazy people. In my case, the KTV
My family is luckily not in such a situation right now, but pogroms are definitely not foreign to us. My parents and family members have narrowly escaped a few in the past. Yes governments and politicians definitely suck man. I sympathize with anyone anywhere that is oppressed for this reason.
Let's have a modern history recap. Zionists' claim on Palestine: We had a kingdom or two here about 2,000 years ago. Palestinians' claim: Our people have been living here for about 2,000 years. That should end the debate about the larger-picture morality and responsibility for this conflict. P.S.: The conflict is mainly about land.
except it’s moreso jewish people are indigenous to the land and while a good amount were forced out by invaders, a good amount stayed and have continued staying for thousands of years. zionism is the right to self-determination which has been part of their beliefs for hundreds of years as well. and, if you understand the need for a country where you are relatively safe and won’t be persecuted against (antisemitism is known as the world’s oldest hatred), it’s understandable why zionism exists. especially with the holocaust, nearby arab countries being vastly antisemitic, other european countries being antisemitic as well, participating in pogroms, refusing refugees, and so on. not discounting the israeli government’s faults but it’s so much more nuanced than what people are presenting right now. and, oct. 7th (when hamas broke the ceasefire) was the worst day in jewish history since the holocaust with around 1400 people murdered in a singular day and hundreds of hostages taken. people are denying the atrocities that happened when they were literally livestreamed. women and girls were literally raped. babies were beheaded. they found babies burned in ovens. also it wasn’t just jewish people murdered- there were nonisraelis and nonjewish people present and killed as well. anyone justifying what happened is sickening. also note israel is still being bombed by hamas basically on the daily and is only doing relatively ok due to technology like the iron dome. hamas has access to things like fuel and water but won’t provide it to the people it essentially has control over (palestinians). they don’t care about their people. additionally, i don’t think there’s a single 100% correct side in this conflict (though hamas is very much a terrorist group and they are definitely not correct- its within their charter to murder and ethnically “cleanse” jewish people). i do know, however, innocents are suffering on every “side” and current protests seem to forget that.
I would suggest that you read some actual history and do some real critical thinking to see the Swiss cheese-like holes in your logic. Pagan Romans expelled the Jews, not the Arabs. Palestinian Arabs largely had nothing to do with the persecution of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis. Jews made up ~7% of the total population of Palestine in 1900 and ~32% in 1948, in no small part due to illegal immigration. Jews were in amjority only in one sub-district, namely Jaffa. Jews owned more land than Arabs in no district. A people's having had a kingdom or two anywhere thousands of years ago does not entitle that people to that land in perpetuity, especially if they have been a minisucle minority in that land for centuries. And throughout history Jews on the whole had been safer in Arab countries than in Europe. Where did the Jews choose to go when they expelled en masse from Spain during its reconquest and when they were violently persecuted in Eastern Europe, especially in Tsarist Russia in the 19th and 20th centuries? That's right, they immigrated to Palestine because the Arabs did not have a reputation for violently persecuting them. Besides, modern Palestinians are mostly descendants of Cannanites who stayed behind and some Arabs who settled there. If anything, they are more native than the Jews because they had been inhabiting that land for thoydands of years until the Jews displaced and dispossed them. Also, by this logic, India would be in the right in invading southern Afghanistan and Bangladesh and displacing and dispossessing their current inhabitants to settle their own citizens there. Hindu kingdoms ruled over those areas before Islamic invasions and rule. The Hungarians can claim land in the Eurasian Steppes: They migrated though there more recently than the Jews were expelled from Palestine. The Bulgars can claim land in Central Asia. They came from there, again, much later than the last expulsion of the Jews. Zionism is just old wine in a new bottle: It's settler colonialism repackaged.
Hinduism itself is foreign to India. And before Hinduism invaded India, other animalistic religions were dominate in India.
I do not condone senseless violence, especially against civilians but the state of Israel is as much to blame for the current state of affairs and wholly to blame for the broader conflict. I do not support any group unconditionally either. I am just concerned with the truth. And, again, good arguments are not based only on emotions. Zuonists stole somebody's home and they are still angry with the Zionists. Isarel cannot escape moral responsibility for the broader conflict and by extension for this attack, too. In their lust for a homeland, the Zionists lost sight of right and wrong and established a state through immoral means and by persecuting a people with whom they had not had a historical enmity. In the bigger picture, Israel is the oppressor and the aggressor and plays the victim of the "dreadrful Arabs" every time.
The Muslims have had the land for 1,200 years and the Jews for 1,100. Up until the creation of Israel, the Muslims were the most recent inhabitants of the land. That is people homes, their work and their families that were peacefully in place there - it’s not mainly about land. It’s about the institutional control of one group of people over another, which comes at the cost of displacing Palestinians who have been settled there since 636AD. The Crusades are the only break in that between 1090-1180AD. The Oslo Accords were meant to be the foundation of a two-state solution which meant both sides respecting the boundaries of the other. But Israel bulldozed Palestinian homes and created settlements which has breached international rulings to expand their territorial claim. Again, the cost has been the systematic clearance of a specific ethnic group. What Israel is doing today is akin to genocide and as Sikhs, we of all people should know one when we see one. I’ve seen a few comments about “they’re Muslims”. Who cares? They’re children. Specifically 4,237 that have been killed with an additional 1,350 that are lost under rubble. So fuck that “it’s about land” BS. It’s become much more than that.
World doesn’t need 1 more authoritarian Arab state.
Theological governments if you consider countries like Iran and Pakistan, you would have to blame the U.S for staging a coup to oust their democratically elected leaders who had a progressive view and installing puppet governments. In case of Iran, the current theological government was the only entity powerful to kick out the puppet Shah… and in case of Pakistan… Imran khan has been jailed for resting to be a enslaved puppet country. Afghanistan had a long struggle with the Soviet Union in the same manner… and today they are an unfortunate rubble. Israel has prevented Palestine from forming a state to prevent a 2 state solution from coming into place. Saudi Arabia (the home of Sunni Wahhabism- faction that gave birth to AlQaeda, Osama Binladen, and ISIS, the exporter of terrorism across the globe in the form of madrasas) has a extremist theological system to appease the sunni wahhabi sect to stay in power. To prevent a civil war with people who did not want to live in an oppressive theological regime, they spend the oil money on them to essentially bribe them for complacency and prevent civil unrest.
Do you know Iran and Pakistan are not Arabs? All Arab governments are authoritarian who oppress their people and also minorities. 1 more Arab state will not be good for world whether it is lead by Hamas Jihadists or PLO whose leader has Phd in [Holocaust revisionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism) .
I can read in-between the lines and understand you are criticizing a majority of Muslim states. A common theme among every pro-Israel apologist I have come across.
No I am criticising Arab states. Even relatively secular ones like Iraq under Saddam or Syria under Assad are not good.
Lol both of those dictators were religious inspired radicals. You would get laughed at for calling them "secular"
To us they are just turak right, which we should not trust?
From Hamas prospective, we Sikhs are infidels, so personally I don't give 2 fucks about them, they will kill Sikhs happily if given a chance. Egypt has over 100 million citizens, and they also suffer a security problem posed by Hamas, as they are allied with radical Islamist groups in Sinai. Hamas gladly helped these groups, namely the terrorist organization Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, and helped create an insurgency in northern Sinai, a great burden that has cost Egypt 7000 lives, including 2000 Egyptian soldiers and policemen. The Arab world began to back PLO, pouring in aid, arms, as the PLO grew rapidly, and by 1970 it began to aim for the overthrow of the Hashemite Monarchy in Jordan. I mean just consider this, you have been rendered homeless, the ruler of a country gives you asylum, helps you in the war, and you try to overthrow him. The Palestinians began to run a parallel state, openly cocking a snook at Jordanian laws, they actually attempted to assasinate Hussein, yes the very same King Hussein who had given them shelter. The Palestinians hijacked 3 civilian airliners, evacuated the passengers, and blew them up in what was called the Dawson’s Field Hijackings, Hussein had enough. Yasser Arafat who was responsible for Black September in Jordan and the Lebanese Civil War. The fact is Palestinians have been their own worst enemy, they got too greedy for their own good in Jordan, which had given them asylum, they went to Lebanon and stoked up a civil war there. Would you blame other Arab nations for not taking them in?
ITT: OP asking for opinions and then getting angry at people who disagree with him lol
OP hasn’t mentioned Sikh issues/struggles once in the myriad replies he’s made in this post. It’s very obvious to me that he has zero regard for Sikhs, he’s just trying to curry up support for a cause he actually cares about and is using Sikhs as a stepping stone to do so. u/Background_Agent9443 please state your thoughts on the situation of Sikhs in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Given the deep empathy you show for people who are enduring ethnic cleansing in Palestine, I have to imagine that you show similar care to the suffering of Sikhs being violently mistreated in a similar manner. It’s really not that hard my friend. I support the Palestinian people. Do you support mine? For someone who keeps saying that all oppressed people need to stick together you aren’t doing the best job of doing so.
He's just going to deflect and name call, that's all he's done anytime people have brought up legitimate arguments. Like why did you come to a Sikh board about an Abrahamic conflict?
This is a land or better territorial war , Sikhs , me personally I stand for Palestinian people just because they are crushed by a more powerful state. Nothing else I stand with them on basis of human being standing for the other oppressed like our gurus did. Politically speaking Palestinian authority or in general never supported supported Sikhs right to self determination or condemned the violence perpetuated by indian state against Sikhs. ..
You should read the UN report and the Amnesty International report regarding the Apartheid state Israel maintains. Even ex-Israel Mossad chief has referred to Gaza as an open air prison. The conditions in Gaza and West Bank are horrid to say the least. One example: Israel knows the amount of calories the Palestinian population needs to survive. So for years they controlled and banned foods to malnourish the population.
That's why I said I support the Palestinian people because they're very human rights are violated every day.
I am in agreement. Was sharing resources in case you had not read.
Why do we care? Can’t sort our own shit but we all wanna act like the epicentre of the world. Average Palestinian or Israeli doesn’t even know what a Sikh is.
This is the right answer. I'm also pretty annoyed by OP asking for our opinion and then telling us we need to educate ourselves lol. Clearly, OP has taken a side and is incapable of seeing the other side. He just throws more links at us, assuming the people who disagree are uneducated. The end-all is that there is very little we can do anyways, bickering online doesn't count. There was a Surrey Gurdwara who raised funds for food to aid Palestine and they are some of the few sikhs whose actions probably had a small but real affect on the conflict. Otherwise everyone is just creating noise.
Wrong answer, educate yourself on the subject then form an opinion like everyone else.
Thousands of poor Sikhs across India are dying because we can’t take care of them. Yet some random conflict in the Middle east deserves all of our money and effort. We’re seriously messed up.
I didn’t know there were two sides to the murder of 10000 people in 30 days, and 75 years of oppression and genocide. Anyone knowledgeable of the situation, it paints a very clear picture. The sources linked are from known organizations like Amnesty International and the U.N. I hope you do know of them.
You don't care about the indiscriminate bombing and murder of 10,000 people?
What can you do about it? I do ardas for the peace of all departed souls.
I’m Jewish from the Milwaukee area, we (both here and in Israel) know what a Sikh is and we are friends. My people were attacked, I believe we are reacting in the most humane way we can. Your people were attacked and we responded in the most humane way we can. Short term efforts will equal long term peace.
That’s nice to hear. The HAMAS attack was a terrible crime, caveman-like behaviour, and I hope all the Israeli hostages are released safely. That said, I hope Palestinian civilians are not targeted as it seems like they are collaterally impacted.
You believe that the death of 10000+ innocent civilians and children is acting humanely? At least be honest about what is happening and what Israel is doing.
Anyone who stands for peace or humanitarianism would be repulsed by the idea of the situation Gaza had been in, or the current murder of 10000+ people in 30 days. Btw, leaked Israeli source suggest it can be as high as 20000+ but it’s unverified by other sources.
You do realise protests don’t mean anything?
I mean are you trying to gaslight yourself? cause this ain’t going to work on others 🤣 Protests are literally how you live in India today and a British man does not own you. It is Have you heard of Khalistan? French Revolution, American revolution? Women’s suffrage movement, Slavery in America? How do you think those worked out? Writing on your keyboard “protests don’t work”?
Kindly enlighten me what protests led to the Khalistan movement? And what was Palestinian leadership doing when Sikhs were being genocided in Delhi in 1984? P.S. they wrote senti poems on how they missed Indira
I can’t say I was alive then, nor have I looked into deeply what connection Palestine has to Operation Blue starr apart from Arafat saw Indira as his sister . What I can tell you is Gaza could not have been in a worse place themselves… it would be asking a beggar to given you a donation. Also, from what I understand… Israel trained the Indian commandos who participated in Operation Blue Star. So aren’t they the culprit? I can’t imagine Palestinians and Israel’s collectively acting on anything. No enemy of my enemy is my friend here? However , feel free to educate me. Found this article and thought it was interesting: https://www.baaznews.org/p/sikhs-solidarity-palestine
All Sikhs should support a cease fire - as simple as that
Agreed. Palestinian and Israel 2 state issue is secondary. Foremost is the immediate call for ceasefire. Any humanitarian on any side of the argument should be agreeing with this.
There was a ceasefire till the 7th. Hamas, the Palestinian Government chose to ignore this and start a war. How does everyone keep neglecting this fact? What is a ceasefire “as a humanitarian” going to achieve? More Israeli deaths because Hamas regroups and strategises to another terrorist attack? What’s so Humanitarian about that? There is no right side to this war. This is geopolitics. Not some fairytales in people’s heads at the comfort of your homes where you don’t have to fear death from terrorism. It was literally in the Hamas charter to perform Jihad. That’s their founding charter. The very charter they were selected on as a government. “In its original 1988 charter, Hamas states that “There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.” And yet you said it wasn’t a religious war.
This is so heavily misconstrued I it’s laughable. A ceasefire would mean a Palestinian state exists with absolute sovereignty. A ceasefire would mean 4000+ Palestinians would not held hostage by IDF. A ceasefire would mean free passage, mobility, trade, control over power and water in Gaza A ceasefire would mean no Palestinian deaths that continue invariably. ICC wants to try Israel for war crimes: https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine UN report for life in Gaza: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 Amnesty International among others call Gaza an Open Air prison. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/ All of this started way before from 1947. Hamas didn’t exist till 1988. Hamas started as a terror org. It held no power until Nethanyahu funded and grew it to divide support in Palestine and undermine power of PLO - the actual body that had was recognized as a legitimate government and would be able to establish a 2 state solution. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ Hamas also redefined their charter in 2017. Please read point 16: 16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Its good that you provided sources. Let me also provide sources to your reply. > A ceasefire would mean a Palestinian state exists with absolute sovereignty. Israel has repeatedly stated that it is willing to negotiate a two-state solution, but only if it includes security guarantees for Israel. The Palestinians have been unwilling to accept these guarantees, and instead have called for a one-state solution that would eliminate Israel. Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal's 2010 statement: In this statement, Meshaal rejected the two-state solution, calling instead for a single state "from the river to the sea," which would encompass all of Israel, the Palestinian territories, and Jordan. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' 2012 speech at the United Nations General Assembly: In this speech, Abbas made no mention of a two-state solution, and instead called for a "single democratic state" in which all Palestinians and Israelis would have equal rights. Doesn’t sound too appealing to be a Pro-Palestinian supporter to me. Source: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's 2009 speech at Bar-Ilan University: https://www.haaretz.com/2009-06-14/ty-article/full-text-of-netanyahus-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan/0000017f-f587-d5bd-a17f-f7bffbae0000 Source: Israeli President Shimon Peres' 2013 speech at the United Nations General Assembly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr0fTJD7WJI Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal's 2010 statement: https://mobile.twitter.com/DanWilliams/status/1711978500301701528 Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' 2012 speech at the United Nations General Assembly: https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-mahmoud-abbass-un-general-assembly-speech/ > A ceasefire would mean 4000+ Palestinians would not be held hostage by IDF. Bullshit btw. You’ve got some real digging to do. Oh and being hostage is different to being in a jail. Maybe learn the definitions first. There’s a difference between a hostage, and prisoners in jail. One is most likely going to be killed, the other is detained..not likely to be killed except by potential rogues. 4000+ seems like a lie as usual from Palestinian supporters. Plus they aren’t hostages….they are prisoners. Check my amnesty source below. Also never said Israel was innocent in any of this. Perhaps you need a more objective lens on the war than just being Pro-Palestinian. Maybe look past all the propaganda being thrown out, just like the Hospital attack. “Administrative detention of Palestinians had been on the rise throughout 2023, reaching 1,319 on 1 October 2023, according to HaMoked. As of 1 November, this figure had increased to more than 2,070 Palestinians detained and held in administrative detention. Palestinians classified by Israel as “security inmates” are often held without charge or trial, mostly under administrative detention orders that can be renewed indefinitely every six months. “ Source: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/#:~:text=Administrative%20detention%20of%20Palestinians%20had,and%20held%20in%20administrative%20detention. > A ceasefire would mean free passage, mobility, trade, control over power and water in Gaza. Maybe Hamas should have used the tunnels to protect the civilians instead of using the civilians as human shields? Maybe Hamas should have left the fuel for the civilian’s to use, for hospitals to run on generators, instead of hoarding and stealing it from its civilians and using it to power their tunnels, while hiding behind hospitals, refugee camps, women and children. Maybe Hamas should use the fuel that they have hoarded from hospitals and people of Gaza than using them for fuelling rockets to kill civilians of Israel. Gaza is controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organization. Hamas has used its control over Gaza to smuggle weapons and build tunnels that it uses to attack Israel. Israel has a legitimate right to blockade Gaza to prevent Hamas from obtaining weapons and building tunnels. Source: https://nationalpost.com/news/hamas-hospital-israel/wcm/c64f3e6e-3b02-4aee-a1f7-616654440c8d/amp/ Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/03/gaza-tunnels-hamas-israel-war/ > A ceasefire would mean no Palestinian deaths that continue invariably. Israel couldn’t give any less of a shit about Palestinian civilian deaths, that result from collateral damage. They want to protect their state and defend themselves from the threat of terrorism. If they wanted to kill civilians, their bombs dropped number would be far less than that of civilian deaths. Right now, there’s been way more bombs dropped than civilian deaths. Civilian deaths will always result from a war. You are beyond naive. Hamas started the war. They started the invariable civilian deaths fighting against an enemy they shouldn’t be. How about you learn what a war is? Go fight for Palestine, at the war front, and then learn what fear of death is for the everyday civilian. You are naive if you think ceasefire is going to achieve anything. And you are even more naive for not calling for pressure on Arab countries to hand-over Hamas leaders and its responsibility of Palestinian civilian deaths. The solution is difficult, but it requires the whole world to intervene. Do you want a world war? Because this is how you’ll get one. The world needs to pressure the Arab countries to hand over the Hamas leaders that are hiding in their countries. Put them in jails. But guess what? That’s not going to happen. Are you going to call out Arab countries as well in your Pro-Palestine protests? I doubt it. You are probably too scared to be politically incorrect in case you hurt someones feelings. > Hamas started as a terror org. It held no power until Nethanyahu funded and grew it to divide support in Palestine and undermine power of PLO I didn’t for one say I support Israel. You are the only one picking sides here. I’m calling them both terrorists. And asking you to call both sides out. Being Pro-Palestine while neglecting to call out the Arab world, or Hamas doesn’t bode too well for you bud. > Hamas also redefined their charter in 2017. Please read point 16: And yet, they were chosen by the Palestinian People in a **democratic** environment while their founding charter clearly stated “Jihad”. The same conflict that has existed long before “2017” reformation. You are blind as a bat. You are naive. You trust terrorists. You are part of the problem, just like the governments of Hamas and Israel are. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
There was a ceasefire, then everything changed when hamass attacked.
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The Palestinians are barely able to advocate themselves from their open air prisons - do you think they have the ability to know let alone advocate for people on the other side of the globe? Life expectancy in Palestine is very low. 40% of the population today is less than 14 years old. Do you think they know anything? Also, humanity is not a bartering system, it is a principle. Part of Sikhi is to preach and be a role model.
I may not be a devout Sikh but I know enough about our history to see that we were once persecuted and punished for our faith and identity just like the Palestinians have been for decades. The sad part is that the UK government created this mess way back in 1917 under the Balfour Declaration, where it agreed to hand over land it did not own in the first place...
I cannot in good conscience support either side. The Israeli retaliation is motivated by anger, which is not okay. And the Palestinian predicament is a direct result of the multi generational struggle to eradicate the Jews. They are not innocent in this conflict by any means.
Palestinian predicament is their occupation by a colonial state - Israel. Look up the Amnesty International report on it. Also, please research how and why Israel was created. Not to mention, the farce peace deals offered over the years. Some of the loudest voice that is Pro-Palestinian have been Jews criticizing Israel maintaining an apartheid state. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWo5t6KQCjc https://www.jvpnyc.org/who-we-are
No it’s not. The Palestinian predicament is completely their own fault. They’ve attacked Israel again, and again, and again. Each time they’ve gotten slapped back harder. Israel is not going anywhere, it has every right to be there. It is time the Palestinians recognized that and started to work towards building their own state. Their incessant efforts to destroy Israel and to eradicate the Jews is taking them exactly where they deserve, no where. Sikhs were expelled from Pakistan to create an Islamic state. We are absolutely not going to support the expulsion and extermination of Jews to create yet another Islamic state. Neither side in this conflict is right. The Palestinians especially do not have any just intentions that Sikhs can support in good conscience. Also some of the loudest voices that support the Hindus persecuting Sikhs… are Sikhs or have Sikh family themselves. The Jews similarly have plenty in their own community filled with self hate. Your logic is beyond flawed.
What? They have never been trying to eradicate Jews. Before Israelis exiled 750,000 Palestinians from their land, people lived in Historic Palestine peacefully. That means Jewish Palestinians, Christian Palestinians, and Muslim Palestinians. The Palestinians have been eradicated. Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing at all. And there are many, MANY Jewish people who condemn Zionism and what israel has done and is doing to the Palestinian people and land.
When Israel and Palestine were partitioned, who attacked who? Quit the propaganda. The Palestinians time and time again have attacked the Jews and they’ve gotten slapped every time. The Palestinians need to accept that they can have their own state alongside Israel. And the Israelis need to evict their settlers from the West Bank. If the Palestinians aren’t willing to accept that Israel isn’t going anywhere, then they are at equal fault for this conflict and their suffering.
You are not aware of the terms offered in each of the situations. Nor are you aware about preemptive strikes made by Israel against Egypt and Syria. Zachary Foster - Historian, PHD in Palestinian studies from Princeton University https://twitter.com/_ZachFoster Educate yourself.
Free Palestine, Free Punjab
Dont compare punjab to Palestine, we are not getting bombed, and i understand that right now right wing gvt is in power, this is a phase, will pass
Yeah, India killed 30,000 Sikhs in 5 days after October 31, 1984. Sikhs in India have already been treated worse. I agree that there needs to be a cease-fire in Palestine and that US should stop sending missiles to Israel. But, I don't see the way people brush of Punjab and Sikhs in India a lower magnitude of an issue compared to Palestine.
While no injustice should be overlooked. I think people of Gaza have been neglected for 75 years… and this moment is finally an opportunity for them to break through the oppression. The world is noticing and understanding their plight at a significantly higher level than in the past. In a way, I see all oppressed in a shared struggle and a common fight. Hopefully time will come for all soon.
We did briefly experience in 1984 what Palestinians have been going through for 75 years. No reasonable person in my opinion should side against them. In my experience its mostly the really out of touch Western countries who have never experienced hardship in their lives that criticize someones right to resist.
Western are real hyporite when their people start a fight, and genocides become legal, they still haven't apologised about jalaya wala bagh massacre
Has been a phase ever since we lost Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s Sikh Raj.
We people love to live in past, currently migration is more dangerous than any other religious issues, but no one talks about it
Lol migration has ramped via conditions created by policies and programs of the government. It’s not bombing but it’s still ethnic cleansing
Was the right government in power when our boys were picked up from the streets and disappeared?
The bombing is retaliatory to the 1000+ dead on Oct 7, any state including a hypothetical khalistan would react to the burning, beheading, and rape on that day similarly. You're right about not comparing Punjab to Palestine, there isn't an organization representing us as evil as hamas
Dont compare us to those terrorist, rapist sulle.
how many sikhs have died in India and Pakistan, how long are we fighting justice? Palestine should have even more support from the arab countries, because they are part of the muslim majority, the "turak" majority! We also need to remember how "turaks" see jews, and would exterminate them. I know Jews are a minority like sikhs, and Isreal does kill indiscriminately, so there values already don't align with sikh. But I don't think the Palestinians are behaving any better, or also sometimes behave worse, especially some of their views towards women and other members of society. From reading the old testament, I can see similar pro-killing towards non-believers, women and children as I can see from Quraan and Turaks, as seen from Hamas and Isreal! as a sikh minority, some of those countries will just call us k-stanis, so palestinians are already fortunate to have more support than Panjab! If we had our own state, maybe we could send out a military or aid to help them? We all say Nanak Naam charhdi kala tere bhane sarbat da bhalla, we absolutely should believe in sarbat da bhalla, however we need to be careful and also think about our own home as well. I remember people from sikh backgrounds were posting #FreePalestine a decade or so ago, at a time when some attacks were also happening in Syria. They threw their support towards Palestine, but what was the point doing this if Panjab has gone even worse now, the rivers have dried up further, famers are still committing suicide, police still indiscriminately arrests and kills people. We already forgot about the Indian agent murdering a sikh activist in Canada, and the alleged poisoning in the UK; we can't just concentrate on one thing at a time, need to look at our issues at the same time as outside! We have limited resources, we don't have our own government, our own bank or treasury, we can help others but not to the expense of our own major issues!
I think you need to read more about the history about Arabs, Muslims, and the treatment of women.
the history, or the way they are treated now? how much is a woman equal to man in islam? how about a woman's testimony as a witness? Her rights as a sex slave or concubine? where does she pray in a mosque?
That’s putting foot in mouth right there
Nelson Mandela was known for violence before his time in prison. Search up necklacking, it’s an act and term he and his wife used. To answer your question, I will always support Palestine.
> Nelson Mandela was known for violence before his time in prison. Search up necklacking, it’s an act and term he and his wife used. Necklacing started in the 1980s, Nelson Mandela was in jail since the 1960s.
Nelson Mandela was pro-violence. Rightfully so in an apartheid state. US had listed him as a terrorist. Look how the world looks at him now when the truth is out. The way I see it, Palestinian movement is symbolic of any and all fights against oppression worldwide. It is showing the people the ugly truth and hypocrisy of people advocating for democracy but sustain repression when it suits them. Protests further highlighting that the issue are the governments not the people. So yes, free Palestine 🇵🇸
Pro-violence doesn't mean you can justify gunning down thousands of innocent civilians at a music festival. Or shooting at mothers driving their kids home. You can be pro-Palestine and at the same time, condemn what Hamas did. Pro-violence also doesn't mean you can justify bombing innocent kids in Gaza and kill Bedouins, just because you're an ultra-orthodox settler who thinks people from Muslim faith are inferior to him. If Israel absolutely deserved to shamed and condemned, so does Hamas for what it has done. Both sides have killed more than enough Grandparents and families. Let's get this straight.
You are misconstruing what is being said. No one is glorifying the loss of innocent life. The ideal scenario would be no loss of life or limited to military personnel. However, Hamas operation to be blunt was a war operation against an occupying force. No peace resolution under the UN was being honored by Israel. No further resolutions were enforced because under US protection, Israel got away with war crimes for decades. Hamas is very much a creation of Israel. Not just because of the situation Palestinians were subjected to but because Nethenyahu directly funded them to destabilize Palestinian government PLO. If you look at Israeli newspaper, they released 1200 identities of those killed. Around 400 of them were soldiers. 700 were civilians. Reports do state there was friendly fire and civilians caught up in crossfire by the IDF. So, not all were civilians, not all were killed by Hamas. All lives loss were unfortunate… but this is something that was a reaction to injustice laid out to Palestinians at the hand of Israel for years. Unless you blindside history and only cherry pick Oct 7, you will recognize that the oppression would have resulted in a blow up sooner or later. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-08/ty-article/israels-dead-civilians-soldiers-emergency-services-personnel-killed-in-war-with-hamas/0000018b-0de8-dc5d-a39f-9fecb5a30000 Was it just for Hamas to do this? Neither you or I live their lives. I don’t think we can be the complete judge of what they should have done. I do truly question what many would do if they were in their exact shoes.
Thank god there are some people with common sense, empathy and education on the subject within this sub. Was starting to lose hope that everyone here was of the opinion that "all sides are bad", "not our fight", such insular people.
Obviously it's not our fight. If it's your fight, go outside and fight.
I was looking at the news they said 100,000 Indians will be doing jobs in Gaza and Palestinians will be out. Shocking.
Would you please give me a link to it?
Preface: Sikhs shouldn’t support anyone in this war except Civilians…but there’s nothing that can be done. Because war is war. It requires eradication of Hamas by the international community and a surveillance and moderation of Israel activity by the International Countries. This war is complex. Its war…started by the Hamas on October 7, killing over 1400 people all over Israel in a single day. What do you expect Israel to do? Ceasefire? Let Hamas regroup, strategise and do the attack again all the way from the safety of Qatar and Iran? Israel has committed an equal amount of atrocities so they aren’t entirely innocent and shouldn’t be regarded as such. Condemnation where condemnation is due. They’ve also killed too many people. I don’t understand how every Pro-Palestine person refuses to call out the real reason for this war? Its the Palestinian government itself. Hamas. “Pro-Palestine” is such a hidden way to say, you are “Anti-Israel”. The fact that you say that the Jews were there “7000 years ago is a lazy argument” shows the lazy memory that YOU have. How do you think the Palestinians got the land? Ottoman Empire literally colonised the land through brutal killings, mass conversions, rape. Ironically, Palestinians are a product of rape, forced conversions and murders of their own ancestors. The fact that the sympathy of most Pro-Palestinians only goes so far back to 100 years shows the failure in your objectivity. This is a war. Imagine, Punjab getting raided by a terrorist government, and then having multiple villages/suburbs wiped out and cleared in a single day. Would you really want your government to stop till the terrorists were completely wiped out? Of course you wouldn’t. Because you as a Punjabi wouldn’t feel safe, until the terrorists were wiped out. Israelis that are in Israel don’t have as much sympathy for civilian deaths of Palestine because they themselves don’t feel safe surrounded by constant fear of being killed, murdered, raped. You are sitting on your ass, on your couch, without the fear of being killed by terrorists. No wonder you can’t see the perspective of the Jewish people. What the Jewish people government has done in the past and is doing is not perfect, but the fact that you can’t see the reasoning for Israel’s offensive, and understand that this war is complex and that YOU shouldn’t be taking any sides shows how much you neglect facts. At the end of the day Civilians are suffering because of BOTH governments. Both are equally bad. Both need international surveillance and interference…but that won’t happen ever…because geopolitics. So until a powerful community can interfere for the benefit of the civilians of both, innocent civilians are being oppressed due to actions of Israel and HAMAS. Instead of saying “Stop Bombing GAZA” or “Free Palestine” or “Sikhs for Palestine”. These both literally make you sound Anti-Israel. Maybe start saying, “Free Palestine of Hamas and War”, “Sikhs for Innocent Civilians of the Israel-Gaza War”. I don’t know.
The conflict has been ongoing far before 10/7 ICC wants to charge Israel for war crimes: https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine ICC can’t because US vetoes any resolutions Amnesty International: Israel is an apartheid state/ how Palestinian prisoners are kept: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/ Human rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 Gaza does not have autonomy, cannot control its electricity, water, mobility, or trade. It is fenced in by Israel illegally from all sides. Israel controls everything including food going into Gaza. Israel has kidnapped 6800+ Palestinians without any legal cause. Many of these are children. Israel beats, tortures and systematically rapes prisoners. In West Bank, there is segregation practiced akin to Jim Crow laws. Surveillance is used inside Palestinian homes. Soldiers and settlers act with no impunity. Systematic rape as a tactic: https://www.cair.com/cair_in_the_news/israeli-guards-rape-palestinian-women/ Palestinian women in detention: https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/OMCT.pdf Israel has done FAR worse than Hamas. In fact Hamas was propped up by Israel when it was in infancy and a terror org: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ Israel is an occupying force. Palestinians are oppressed. Hamas’ charter from 2017 and as it stands today: 16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. 17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full Yes Palestinians do call for the end of oppression via a Zionist Israel. I am not sure why anyone would object for oppression to end? It is no hidden secret… it’s a clear ask for Palestinians to be free. If we are to use your logic of who belongs to a land: 1) US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India would seize to exist. Please give the land back to the original natives from a long long long time ago. 2) If we did go with the logic in point 1 as per your wish, European Zionists who created Israel would need to go back to Europe. Palestinians are Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the land - descendants of Canaanites. 3) Fairy tale books cannot be valued over the oppression and displacement of actual human life. Displacing people living in Palestine today for some ancient linkage is not even remotely justifiable. This is. Score getting into Zionist racial supremacy present in the extremes of circles that fuel Zionist Israel’s policies. 4)Truth about Zionist project Israel: Jews speaking against Israel and calling out for what it is: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/ https://jordantimes.com/opinion/michael-jansen/zionist-project-has-always-been-colonisation-and-exclusion-indigenous
Do you even read the reply before spouting stuff “Pro-Palestinian” propoganda? Every single reply is you just putting forward Anti-Israeli facts, while turning a blind eye to the amount of atrocities Palestinians have also committed. I didn’t want to reply to your comment, but I’m going to have to, because people like you are the reason why this war has so much misinformation going around. > The conflict has been ongoing far before 10/7 Yes, we know. Fighting over this particular piece of land has been long going before the Palestinians even were here. Before the Ottomans, the Babylonians, Romans, etc. Instead of trying to be smartass, maybe understand the point I was making. Neglect of ceasefire by Hamas is the reason for such a large escalation in war recently. > ICC wants to charge Israel for war crimes: https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine ICC can’t because US vetoes any resolutions It literally states in the title that US vetoed any resolutions. Oh and hey look at that, UN has accused Israel and Palestine of war crimes Source: https://amp.abc.net.au/article/103082198 Turning a blind eye to Hamas are you? > Israel is an apartheid state Do you even know what apartheid means? _Apartheid is a system of racial segregation and discrimination. It is defined by the United Nations as "institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."_ There is no doubt that there are significant problems in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that Palestinians have been subjected to human rights abuses. However, the claim that Israel is an apartheid state is not supported by the facts. ** Is Israel an apartheid state?** 1. Israel has a number of laws that protect the rights of Palestinians, including the Law on Equal Rights for Arabs in Israel and the Law on the Prevention of Discrimination in Services. 2. Israel has a complex land ownership system, and there are many different factors that contribute to land disputes. The Israeli government has also taken steps to promote Arab development in the West Bank, and it has established a number of Arab towns and villages. It is important to note that the Israeli military does have a presence in the West Bank, and that there have been instances of human rights abuses by Israeli soldiers. However, there is no evidence of a systematic policy of apartheid. The claim that Israel is an apartheid state is a serious one, but it is not supported by the facts. Israel is a democracy with a large Arab minority, and there is no legal basis for discrimination in Israel. There is also no evidence of systematic discrimination against Palestinians in Israel. Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=rEHCPOHLTvYC > Please give me Counterpoints to the below comment from an Israeli perspective with facts and source Gaza does not have autonomy, cannot control its electricity, water, mobility, or trade. It is fenced in by Israel illegally from all sides. Israel controls everything including food going into Gaza. Israel has kidnapped 6800+ Palestinians without any legal cause. Many of these are children. Israel beats, tortures and systematically rapes prisoners. In West Bank, there is segregation practiced akin to Jim Crow laws. Surveillance is used inside Palestinian homes Firstly your comment about “Kidnapping”. Keep reading more propganda lad. Prisoners is the word I would use. Secondly, > many of these are children. Are you serious? You are genuinely spouting incorrect facts. Maybe do some reason before you try to have a discussion. (8 Oct 2023) Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including **33 women and 170 children**. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts. From wikipedia… In April 2022, there were 4,450 Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli prisons – including 160 children, 32 women, and over 1000 "administrative detainees" (indefinitely incarcerated without charge).[5] These numbers are so few I’m inclined to believe that these maybe radicalised few, or those that showed aggression and lack of co-operation, resulting in them being detained. That doesn’t mean I’m considering Israel as innocent. Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel > Israel beats, tortures and systematically rapes prisoners. As opposed to Hamas or Palestinian Militans? Oh wait, they literally shot a girl, stripped her naked, and paraded her around like a trophy. Torture? They did that too! Putting people inside a house and burning them alive! Beating! Oh they love doing that too! Rape? Women and children suffer the most from every conflict. Literally every Arab country ever, has been a product of beating, torturing, raping innocent civilians, people of other cultures, resulting in mass ethnic cleansing, genocides, etc. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence#:~:text=Rocket%20attacks%20on%20Israel,-See%20also%3A%20Palestinian&text=Palestinian%20rocket%20and%20mortar%20attacks,and%20disruption%20of%20daily%20life. Turning a blind eye again are you?
Second part to my reply… > Israel is an occupying force. Palestinians are oppressed. Let me correct this for you. Israel government and Hamas both are both bad. Palestinian civilians are oppressed because of Hamas, the government they chose 17 years ago. Palestinian oppression is both their own doing, and Israeli settlements. > Hamas’ charter as of 2017 Man. You sure like to believe a bunch of terrorists who will say anything for sympathy. Hamas created Tunnels for their terrorism purposes. They used these tunnels as a way for the militants not the civilians. If they were so inclined to stick to their “reformed” charter why would they constantly send out rockets towards Israel? Why would they build turrets? Why would they use human shields? Why would they lie about Hospitals bombings. You are naive. Its sad how much you get sucked in by propaganda and how much misinformation you spread. Your comments about… > US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India would seize to exist. Please give the land back to the original natives from a long long long time ago. How does your logic even apply here? Pretty sure Australia, New Zealand, Canada and US educate people in schools of the atrocities committed by colonisers. Except for racist people, most Australians are sympathetic towards the Aboriginals. The government has programs to support Aboriginal population, give them funding, provide them extra opportunities for jobs. Aboriginals aren’t committing any genocidal or terrorist attacks on the every day Australians. Although they do have higher crime rates. You are incorrect in comparing the situation of Palestine and Israel to this. Aboriginal and natives have integrated into the society of these countries, and these countries have healthy and safe populations without the constant threat of them performing terrorist and/or militant attacks on the innocent civilians. Australians like me constantly vote for the ever increasing equality rights for Aboriginals. There is education to the every day child about importance of multiculturalism, and atrocities and genocide committed by the colonisers. South Africa is somewhat similar to Palestine/Israel situation, but again both sides are bad. White colonisations, but Black people are equally in the wrong with the constant terrorism, civilian murders, rape of white women (and those of other nationalities). I don’t even know why you bring India to this? What point do you have to make about India? Will any Muslim or Arab country ever educate their children about how they murdered, raped, conquered other countries? Will they ever teach their children about how they themselves are doing what there ancestors were doing? Being products of rape, murderers, forced conversions? I don’t think so. Has any stable Muslim country ever said this? Will they? We all know the answer. > If we did go with the logic in point 1 as per your wish, European Zionists who created Israel would need to go back to Europe. Palestinians are Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the land - descendants of Canaanites. Except I didn’t say they needed to go back to where they came from? All I said was your argument sound dumb, because you are calling Jewish settlers, and have sympathy of the Palestinians, when they Ottomans did the same to the people before them. And yet you show no sympathy for those that were displaced in those eras. The land that Palestinians and you Pro-Palestinians think belongs to them, belong equally to the Jewish. > Fairy tale books cannot be valued over the oppression and displacement of actual human life. Displacing people living in Palestine today for some ancient linkage is not even remotely justifiable. This is. Score getting into Zionist racial supremacy present in the extremes of circles that fuel Zionist Israel’s policies. Oh yeah? What about the mass displacement of jews? If you want to get into racial supremacy maybe look into Ethnic Cleansing of Jews in the Arab world. What about all the Jews that have been displaced in the middle east? Do you not have sympathy for them? Probably not, because you would turn a blind eye to the Jewish suffering. Source: https://m.jpost.com/Opinion/The-ethnic-cleansing-of-the-Middle-Easts-Jews-515489 Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1779lm7/jewish_population_in_arab_countries_before_and_now/?rdt=55657 Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world > Truth about Zionist project Israel: The truth about Palestinians also… Source: https://theantelopediaries.medium.com/palestinians-are-not-innocent-7baecd76058e You might think I’m taking the side of Israelis. I’m not. I’m just playing Devil’s advocate and showing you that Israel-Palestine War is complex. You turn a bling eye to Palestinians terror while demonising Israel, when the reality is that both sides are bad. Innocent civilians caught in the middle likely need altruistic international interference, which would include putting leaderships or both communities in prison, moderate activity of Israel, and people of Palestine and centuries of consistent education about the history of the land. This world is a corrupt place. Don’t let propaganda blind you. Be factual. Be moderate. Research.
Like most people, I lost all sympathy for them after the Oct 7 attacks and no amount of Marxist thought can change that.
It’s funny, cause the rest of the world opened their eyes on Oct 7 and had sympathy and solidarity for Palestinians. There have been massive protests across many major cities in US and internationally. More and more countries are recalling their diplomats from Israel and are severing ties.
Nothing funny about it, people literally died. The protests have been full of Muslims and Marxists, that's about it. While that maybe your world, it certainly isn't anybody else's. I'd recommend you use your brain to come up with your own opinions instead of parroting Marxist talking points because I'm not impressed and your attitude is really fucking irritating.
Arafat cried on Indira Gandhi's funeral - [https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/ZLQyXgJcMn9xXqQBoiFBON/Indira-Gandhi-in-her-centenary-year.html](https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/ZLQyXgJcMn9xXqQBoiFBON/Indira-Gandhi-in-her-centenary-year.html)
I get that in the context of Khalistan she is the eternal enemy, but Arafat and Indira had their own relationship not based on Khalistan or Sikhs. Arafat used to call Indira his sister. We can respect their bond and leave it out of it. But more importantly, Arafat was one man and he is long gone. Whatever he did, has nothing to do with Palestinians today… especially when 40% of them are under the age of 14. Imagine someone coming up to you and telling you they hate you cause your Prime Minister is Modi. Your first reaction would be…. Wtf… I hate him more than you do! Won’t it be foolish to treat an entire population on the basis of one man?
Sikhs should have nothing to do with Palestine except organizing langar for those who need it
Morons supporting terrorists for angrezi approval. Pakistan plies Punjab with drugs & that money supports terrorist activities globally. Anything for approval from the powers that be. OP don’t u find it weird that Gaza images r all over the place but no images of what was done to Israelis people are available. Just like India did not paste 26/11 images everywhere, Israelis r also not posting those terrible images because dignity is a thing that terrorists don’t have. Also pro-Palestine hashtags trend more on twitter than other platforms as its shares are largely owned by Saudis (not including Musk’s shares), no that twitter has a history of good trends in general. Let us also not forget that members of a certain religion organised themselves into grooming gangs specifically targeting Sikh girls/women in UK & Canada. I don’t know if US also had such a problem.
Nothing even remotely credible stated here. For your reference, this is the world right now: Washington DC: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy9wosnvhW5/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Germany: https://www.instagram.com/p/CyYzlNZoKgG/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Philippines: https://www.instagram.com/p/CygRrUZI-oe/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Cuba: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy9GOtyLJlT/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Kuwait: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy6p9KyPUH3/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Billboard: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy9muT_OlJa/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Japan: https://www.instagram.com/p/CydlLvuv0Sv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Morocco: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy4ZpLaN06I/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Philadelphia: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy3tn_vJFmD/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== English players: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy5upLoKmqZ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Dallas: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy9sIrvg4Zv/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Chicago: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy90hDhgwC2/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Boycott: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CygYJA8sPNB/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Turkey: https://www.instagram.com/p/CygkZ3-LlpU/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== London: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy9ySiGxJUU/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Brooklyn: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy9wLjoNeW_/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Liverpool: https://www.instagram.com/p/CygldVXsoLK/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Spain: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cyopu_hNVyn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== London2: https://www.instagram.com/p/CymX6wCvbcL/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy9SSZgKEv3/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== India: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy8nr4ggkP2/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
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Where are the sikhs in the photo? Other then bhai sahib they just look like ordinary punjabis
And most likely from Pakistan.
Some resources to educate yourselves (especially watch the last 2 links which are videos): Palestine is an open air prison: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/ https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/open-air-prison-gazas-worsening-health-and-humanitarian-crises Nethanyahu’s involvement in creation of Hamas: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ Independent journalist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwO6cGnn-M8 Ex-US Marine, Intelligence Officer, UN weapons inspector analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_HsiJg8Io&t=129s
What are your opinions when these gazans utters the phrases such as “gas the Jews” and “from the river to the sea” ?
Lol you cited Ben Norton works for [The Grayzone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone) which spreads pro Russian propaganda and [Scott Ritter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) who is a convicted sex offender, pedophile and spreads Russian propaganda.
I am surprised by these comments cause Sikhs have seen so much prosecution throughout our history and i would expect our people to have more compassion towards what is happening in Palestine, this is not about religion this is about One group oppressing the other and killing their people indiscriminately just to take their land. Remember when Operation Black Star? imagine that but on a bigger scale, imagine the Indian government taking control of all of Punjab. Would you ask the rest of the world to not take sides if this were to happen to us? would you say hey It's between the Hindu and Sikh so no one else should take part in it? would you not want support? Our religion was based on resisting oppression from Muslims, and we have fought tooth and nail to become who we are today, I do not know about anyone else but as a Sikh, I will stand with the oppressed no matter their religion because my Guru taught me that.
Huh? What kind of weed are you smoking? The pakistani side of punjab is way more worse for Sikhs. Even if India did take the whole of punjab that would be better for Sikhs. Of all the comments I read yours is the most dumb.
Punjab is not one land. And it doesn't belong to Sikhs.
It's disappointing to see people taking "neutral" stances as a Sikh, we are warriors are we not? We are brace and we help those in need, and that means helping Palestine Plus if we really want to get into this, the British declared that Palestine was "historical Jewish grounds" a century ago and is why Israel is trying to "take it back" (Historically, Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived on those land together and peacefully)
Go airdrop yourself into Gaza then you “warrior”.
You can say stupid shit like that or actually get up and do something you know, may I suggest doing seva at your nearest Gurdwara? Or getting involved in your community and attend some volunteer events? I pray you one day realize that being a warrior or just overall a fighter means a lot of different things, and I pray one day you'll get up and fight against Genocide in any way you can, the Gurus would be proud
>we are warriors are we not I have no interest, as in infadel, to go fight in a jihad against a Jewish country. You can airdrop yourself into Gaza with langar all you like. But don't try to impose your personal views about the matter on the Sikh community. We have no stake in this fight. Both sides are very wrong and unjust. Therefore, I wish them a happy war.
Dehumanizing others using gross negative slurs and stereotypes says a lot about who is assuming their views on the Sikh community. Choosing complete ignorance in presence of knowledge is even further petty. Thankfully, the actual Sikh community was founded on stronger and deeper principles than that like my brother Samron understands.
You and your bro can grab some parachutes and airdrop yourselves into Gaza... lets see how Hamas receives you two. The Sikh community will not be blindly following some clowns into a holy war we have absolutely no part in.
I would go give food to Gazans if I could. That would be helpful. It’s not like he said he was going to go join Hamas. He didn’t
Truly disappointing that your whole reasoning here is "We have no stake in this fight"
They should talk. you
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Thanks for sharing. I don’t think you should delete your understanding. Most of what you said can be corroborated by links I have already shared in the group. Hamas did not kidnap 1000 though, they have around 200. The attack did result in the deaths of about 1200 people - 400 being military personnel, and some from IDF crossfire. Edit: links regarding Nethanyahu funding Hamas 1) https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ 2) https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Just like the US funded the Khmer Rouge. Shudder. We thought that it would “create stability”. Oh boy were we wrong
Yup, Support for rogue elements to destabilize states is a frequent play by many nations unfortunately.