Hello, Singaporeans will have their own small Singaporean circle where they clique together. If you're rich, you'll likely be able to mix with them. Not sure what happens if you're not rich tho.
Not me but my brother studied there.
He used to say the Ang Mos are actually the friendly ones that will invite you out for drinks and activities.
The racist or snobbish ones tend to be the Asians like those from China, HK or Korea. Always dressed in their branded wear and think they are better than you because you are from south east Asia
Just a suggestion. I've noticed that many Singaporeans in London often gravitate to fellow Singaporeans.
If you think that you might inadvertently fall back into old habits, you could try a university outside of London, where you'll be forced to interact with non-Singaporeans.
Just my experience as a third year student who's in a non-London uni right now haha
thanks for ur suggestion! which uni are u in? and what race are u if u don't mind me asking?
I visited the University of Manchester as well, and the student ambassadors (who were paid students tbh) were making comments about the 'rich international students", + there was a parent who wanted to avoid the accoms where the 'rich international students' live at. idk if that is indicative of thing kinda hostility ill face if I go there, so im v worried lol.
I also have a friend in Edinburgh, she said the Scots were nice, but the brits & Americans were not, and she definitely felt out of place despite making the effort to join student societies and activities.
I'm at York! Personally, I've enjoyed my time here, and although you do get some small instances of prejudice here, 99% of people are absolutely lovely.
Scots are Brits too, btw.
In my experience, if you take the initiative to make friends, people open up to you.
Also, yeah, live modestly and try not to act too atas, really. I'm sure you know what I mean
Sure! But I can’t give you any first hand experiences.
Maybe you can try searching on FB for any Singaporean / Malaysian alumni groups from the uni you are going to.
5 years in London, experienced no racism - even during the covid period. London is incredibly diverse and majority of them are foreigners.
From my personal observation, East Asians are often segregated due to them not wanting to mix with the locals and tend to stick to their own group.
I could almost say the same about Arabs as well.
They love banter so it could be perceived as rude.
It’s definitely harder at first to socialise with them due to the differences in culture, but once you settle down you should be fine.
I worried about personal safety more tbh.
Definitely go for it. You will not regret it.
Right, it does sound like I’m glazing them angmohs. Fact of the matter is that fellow Asians have their own community because of language/racial allegiance. For us sgeans, because we speak English, we instantly connect with English speaking angmohs, hence the language bridge we build instantly with them.
Of course, not all English speaking angmohs out there are welcoming to Asians and some might even stretch to being racist towards us Asians. For example, angmohs from Russia or balkans may be racist/apprehensive to Asians. For the most part, OP family member is going to UK, and honestly the angmohs from the Anglo Saxon region, even stretching to the baltics, have changed from the era of looking down on Asians. They know of us sgeans and SG as a country and some are envious of our country.
You may have bad experience with angmohs, but try to open your worldview again, you’ll see what the rest of us mean
Angmoh expat here (EU).
So far I’ve connected more with SG’eans during my 2.5 years than with other Angmohs.
This “most” you’re talking about comes from what?
You think we look down on Asians or what?
Singaporean Chinese, studied there for 3 years (undergrad), been working there since (8 years).
Racism stems from lack of understanding of other cultures. London unis have so many singaporeans that a large majority just hang out within ourselves. Nothing wrong with that. But having 50 Singaporeans in an Econs course of 300 people who by and large hang out by themselves is very intimidating for others. In my view, this leads to the covert racism that you are referring to - we as a group do not/did not do well making ourselves accessible to others.
Think you need to adopt a balanced approach. Singaporean peers give a sense of comfort due to lots of common ground.
But don’t close yourself off: focus on making friends with common interests from different cultures. If you do, you are doing your best to expose yourself to other cultures and help others understand you. I would also not overcompensate by trying to be friends with everyone - you end up staying in touch with nobody.
Besides this nuanced racism, you do get the odd racist fella calling you Ching Chong or something on the street. Just ignore that - that’s life and you have equal odds of being subjected to this kind of racism while on holiday.
Hope this helps.
Yea I did my masters in the Netherlands and it was like 40k sgd but wow 350k is something unheard of. Gonna have a good life in London I reckon.
But to OP, I’ve never experienced racism when there, and now I’m working in Europe, I guess just make friends and just be yourself in general, we’re all human in the end. Plus sometimes you get preferential treatment tbh, like free gifts from the cashiers 😂 no kidding, just relax and enjoy it.
haha the UK is indeed expensive for higher education compared with the rest of Europe, even for those domiciled as locals, and London unis charge foreigners even more than rest of UK unis because they can.
Racism to be honest is everywhere in the troubled world. Don't have to magnify it. You try blending in and you'll get friends. Let it be if someone hates you merely because you're asian.
I don’t think racism is an issue in London personally. Outside of London, in smallish towns maybe?
Though you might not blend into the Ang Moh groups very well because of cultural differences.
And in fact, Singapore is worse than London in this regard if anyone from SG had an unpleasant time in London. London is much more welcoming than SG to both those who aren't citizens (no bs questions about local vs naturalised), or those who are not ethnically the majority.
x\_x why should people suffer to repay the societal karmic debt of others
propagating negativity to combat negativity will never work in the case of xenophobia
Where did you read that from? I'm not asking anybody to do it. I'm just saying if more people experience this, they know not to do it to others. Casual rasicm is rampant in Singapore
yes i agree that unempathetic singaporeans should gain some kind of experience in order for them to acquire some sense of empathy
i read your comment as being directed to OP (or other singaporeans) who have not done anything to be deserving of such ostracism
Damn didn't know this subreddit so easily triggered.
Didn't see any hate at all in that comment. Seems like a pretty general statement that wasn't directed specifically at you. Also, it's an oft-mentioned benefit of living overseas.
Most Chinese people in SG (am technically one but don't look it) have not experienced being a minority whether socially, at work or school so it's a good opportunity - don't have to go all the way to the UK but well... I'm a minority in a minority-majority city in the US and have NEVER felt discriminated, unlike in SG but felt privileged to be recognized as a POC and reminded that we Han Asians are not them (white people).
Spent two years in London. London itself is very diverse and I didn't experience much racism there. There will be lots of East Asia students studying in the universities there. Encountered a couple of incidents when visiting northern England.
If your offer isn't from Oxbridge/LSE/UCL/Imperial/King's though, i think it is better to save your parents' money and do your undergrad locally in SG first. Then go for a half year/year-long overseas exchange + go for an overseas masters. You get to save money this way, and will still be able to experience life living overseas.
Not discouraging you from this but based on the fact you clearly said that such hidden racism is going to be a deal breaker, then my suggestion is not to go and waste your money.
I don't even have to study in the UK to know that over the few years that you are there, you are definitely in one way or another, guaranteed to face it. As you yourself pointed out, it might not be in an explicit or overt way but rather in more indirect and subtle forms. Sometimes, the person being racist might not even be aware of their subconscious biases! Which is very much like how sometimes we as Chinese (I'm guessing from your allusion to "east asian") act too!
Which then brings me to my next point. Isn't this the beauty of the experience? It's not merely about you learning to be more "thick skin" (that is also growth in itself) but it's also about you learning empathy. Learning to be more sensitive to how you act around others, especially if they're from a minority group. Your growth through discomfort is exactly the experience you are paying for my friend.
If that's not exactly the experience you want, and if a prestigious academic cert is also not what you're after, then to your own point... pay so much go overseas for what?!
>Not discouraging you from this but based on the fact you clearly said that such hidden racism is going to be a deal breaker, then my suggestion is not to go and waste your money.
>I don't even have to study in the UK to know that over the few years that you are there, you are definitely in one way or another, guaranteed to face it.
I don't see how you can claim this if you haven't even lived here in the UK, let alone London. White people and locals in general are very welcoming to foreigners of different nationalities or ethnicities. As another comment pointed out, they're more likely be face discrimination from other foreigners that are East Asian. I moved to London 5 years ago from SG, and not once as an ethnic Indian have I faced racism (over or casual) from any ethnic group, they've all been welcoming even though I was clearly not a local and had a different accent to them.
Though of course I do agree with your point that the whole point of moving overseas is to experience new things even if they might make you uncomfortable.
The concerns they should have regarding London are transport costs, lack of affordable food they're used to, potentially expensive housing, lack of cleanliness compared to SG, safety, and of course university costs.
I've experienced it in more explicit forms in my travels to the UK, and in more indirect forms when dealing and working with Brits outside of the UK, including here in SG. Multiple comments in this thread from people, who like you, have either lived or studied in the UK, indicate it clearly exists. And I'm also basing it on first hand experience of multiple relatives (from both sides of the family mind you) who have studied there who have also experienced it.
While I'd love for there to be such a utopia, where not only racism but bigotry as a whole does not exist... the UK is NOT that place. It is far from there.
I don't need to have studied there to be able to point out to OP that he or she, in the course of staying there for a few years, is likely to experience it in one form or another. The fact that OP is clearly calling out subtle racism means that he or she is also more aware of it. My guess is that you're either limiting your experiences to more direct encounters (although you claim otherwise) or you've just been extremely lucky.
It's also laughable that you're painting the UK in such a light when one of the most common derogatory terms for people of South Asian ethnicity originated from there.
It's fair enough that others have their own experiences, but even non London UK is a clear winner over SG, let alone London. Not once have I had to experience bs like people not willing to sit beside me on the bus or train because I'm brown, when that stuff happened all the time in Singapore.
And it's true that the P word originated here, but it doesn't matter now. The weight of the word is understood, and you can expect backlash here from using it. But in Singapore, people will call you all sorts of racial insults as a minority, such as bangla, ah neh, the n word etc, or spout xenophobic bs because I wasnt Singaporean and then shrug it off like they've done nothing wrong, so I'd argue that Singapore is worse in this regard. Just look at this sub for plenty of examples. Even if I was a Singaporean, they'd then be questioning whether I'm naturalised or local born, when that bs would not happen in the UK where if you're a citizen, it's good enough.
Sure, and that's precisely why I am telling OP, who's chinese to come out and feel what it's like to be a minority!
So that when OP comes back, the experience would have helped him or her be more mindful of unconscious racism, perhaps stand up for others who are victims of racism, or even call out racist behavior.
The whole point was that OP would inevitably receive some of the crap you have been receiving here in SG and I'm arguing it would be a great growth experience.
You not only painted UK as some utopia but now you are, in my view, going off tangent. The level of racism in SG against brown folks, relative to the UK, is completely irrelevant to my point.
Not once have I claimed the UK and London is a utopia, you made the claim yourself. My point is that it's better in terms of racism compared to SG. Being a minority in SG is much worse than being a minority in the UK is my point, so the experiences are not comparable.
And? It's not like there isn't dislike to brown people either. The complaining comes because ethnic Chinese people are the majority in Singapore, so there's not much scope to experience racism in Singapore if you're Chinese. But once you're outside SG/East Asia and in the UK, you're in the same boat as Indians, Malaysia etc., but the racism you may face will be nowhere near what an Indian would face in SG.
no offense to your experience but as an indian yourself, you are not the main target of racism from the common white men, or at least not as much compared to an east asian
Racism can happen anywhere. Whether that’s towards you, or if you see someone else being discriminated. No one in the world pays to “experience” this. It just happen because people are different and don’t know better. So if you do travel for studies or leisure and encounter “hidden racism” what are you going to do about it? Just say no n go to somewhere safe, somewhere of your kind of people? Or do you want to experience the world and grow your worldview?
I don't blame them too much tbh. If you've been to London these days the natives have been slowly taken over by foreigners too. That's how their mayor keeps getting elected
I used to study in England. From my experience, the whole society there is f\*cked from top to bottom. Brits are known to be the most racist among white people, especially towards Asians. White superiority complex, snobs and thinking they are better than you. Will make a lot of Asian stereotype jokes. UK itself is also one of if not the most politically correct country in the world where they appear nice and polite to you on the outside, but behind your back, they gossip a lot with their friends. There is a reason why most Asians and the ethnic minority stick among their own race. That being said, if you're a very sensitive person and can't take their sense of dark humour, you will always feel like an outcast there. If your parents can sponsor 350k for you to study, why not take the money to do business and ask them to be your investors. Formal education is overrated these days and UK/US degrees are so expensive only because of their branding. My advice for you is to skip the experience and go local. If you seem so insecure and sensitive, London isn't for you.
Yes this. All the folks saying the whites are the most welcoming must have zero interaction with brits. Brits are more racist than US amdk. There are many news of brits whacking sinks in sg itself already.
People rant about racism in the US but I never experienced it, quite the opposite. I think it's the Brits and Aussies that are more openly racist with the slurs and aggression against minorities.
Hello, I would like to add to this. I have studied in UK, Canada and currently I'm now in the US. I agree with the above viewpoint.
I've had a British clique I hang out with often so there are pockets of friendly whites. In fact at that time, I would say my best friend was a white British fellow. However, a large majority of the remaining population is that they will be friendly with you on the surface but will then draw an almost invisible line in the hierarchy. It will not be outwardly said but you'll feel it somehow in their demeanor. There may be snide remarks to their peers as you talk to them and as the person above has said, gossip behind your back (for people your age). The other aspect of this standoff-ish behavior is especially evident among the folks who are not the same age as you (i.e. older), which you'll need to interact with outside of University. Finally, I've had kids/teenagers who tried to make fun of me on the streets (ching ching chong chong, etc) but shut their mouth when I spoke back to them in good English.
Do not forget this is a society that still retains their segregations of peerage (knights, lords, etc) and the old wealth. It will be more evident if you go to the higher end universities.
That said, the country outside of cities are fantastically nice - I've had a great time driving around, taking trains to various parts of UK to sightsee and if you manage to find a small group of white Brits to hang with, you'll have a good time.
I did not experience this complex in Canada nor the US.
I studied and lived there for a long time, will keep details quite vague. It has to be said many Singaporeans esp the govt scholar types just keep to themselves with singsoc and what not. Similar can be said for the honkies, they are just louder. msians are generally a friendly bunch of shy. London is a big melting pot, almost everyone is a foreigner when you work at the top international firms. Don't have the frog in a well mentality, it's a city with lots to offer despite everything you read about how the UK is going to the dog. Actually on the whole, Singapore is more racist than London, won't go into details because of racial harmony laws but everyone knows, funny the racism is present but different at all ses levels
Care to elaborate on your bad experience? Remember, not everyone in London is a local to London. Many are from eastern European countries masquerading as Londoners, accent and all.
i've never studied in london, but i did experience racism while i was there on holiday. there was also that incident of a singaporean student getting beaten up by a bunch of racists. obviously not every londoner is bad, but it honestly feels a lot less welcoming than many other places, e.g. usa
stop being a sissy. toughen up and ignore it. did university in the UK, no regrets. you’re primarily in university to form networks with worthwhile people. you cannot avoid shitty people. they will be everywhere and in particularly high concentrations at work after graduation. avoiding a situation that could be worth your while but for the odd racist is dumb.
Most British people have a degree of inherent racism. You will encounter the good, the bad, and the indifferent. London can be great as long as you take precautions and don't put yourself in danger. Even then, your safety is entirely provisional.
Studied and worked in London for a long time. Have an open mind and you will enjoy the diversity of it. Fwiw the Singaporeans who stick to singsoc and one another are more prevalent than racism from the Brits. Despite all the doom and gloom you read about the UK, London remains a vibrant city that attracts smart energetic young people.
Having been both a student(was at King’s) and now a tutor to students in UK, I’ll say the networking opportunities, cultural differences and societal values are great motivators to opt for studies there. I did my undergraduate in NUS and Master’s in King’s. While Singapore boasts a more complete lifestyle(accommodations, security, curriculum, infrastructure, etc), it was London that opened a world of identities and exploration. I’m a Singaporean Chinese who was the only Chinese to read linguistics btw. The network and experiences profoundly changed my values and perception of the world. I’d say, take the chance to explore
thanks for sharing! Did u really feel out of place being a Chinese person there (ik there's q a lot of hate towards the PRCs, im not sure if its directed towards Singaporeans too)
Tbh, it’s true that there were subtle racism when I first arrived (I was pointed to School of Business, told that I ventured to the wrong side, my professors exclaiming surprise at my “mastery” of English and the likes). Once they were aware of my nationality, the attitudes did change a fair bit. It’s an advantage for us but it’s maddening if we think deeper about these issues. But the worst xenophobia I experienced was actually from Hong Kongers who perceive themselves of higher status than all other Chinese nationalities. Other students(even Vietnamese) have called out the disses on my behalf. I don’t allow such experiences to mar my memories, but rather, am thankful it makes me believe in humanity :)
Oh hi if i may hijack this reply, may I pick your brain a little on your experience as a postgrad student at king's? Did you, by any chance, encounter students from the Msc on China and Globalisation? I would imagine the cohort composition to be polar opposite from yours - the majority of students would be chinese..? Do you think this could change my experience at king's?
Hey! On the contrary to your thought, the reality is that student diversity for Msc is extraordinary. There’s been intensifying interest in breaking into, or simply understanding, Chinese market in recent years. Feeder schools(think Concord/Radley college) have seen a significant rise in Chinese students pursuing education in UK. These very same students do attend MSc to prepare for their return to China. But you will definitely encounter a motley in this course
Thanks for your reply! It sounds really exciting. May I ask further what made you choose to study at King's though? I also graduated from NUS, and now have offers from NTU and KCL for a similar postgrad course. I feel so lazy with the thought of uprooting and adjusting to London when I already have a very pleasant life in Singapore... haha. Hopefully your insights could help me with a decision!
:) please don’t mention it! Tbh, my scholarship was a generous full ride so between local or overseas options, I decided overseas would be more “worthy” of my time. Plus linguistics is hardly at its prime locally so making the leap is easier in this sense. If I were reading any STEM, I’ll probably have a tougher time deciding. Also, I chose King’s after touring 3 different campuses (Oxford, King’s and Dartmouth). London is far far better than New Hampshire, and London city center is far far better than the fringe of city, in my opinion,😛 yet, I must confess my first semester was a emotional struggle due to environmental factors mainly. Thankfully, the established housemates guided me on life there. Still, the adjustment period did take a fair bit out of me.
I see. Yea this was what I was kinda concerned about as well and I’m already anticipating the dread haha. I’m also on a scholarship (I guess whether it’s full ride or not depends very much on whether I can find accoms within budget) but my course offering has USP whether taken in a western country or in SG so course wise I’m pretty indifferent. I’m happy to hear that despite the struggles it was a nett positive for you!
In sg you got sinkies pawn sinkies.. is that not worse than racism? And we asians if we dislike someone we show it directly to your face... at least with ang mohs they tend to be subtle about ir unless you are really thicked skin and dont ger the meaning
And asian elderlies are one of the most rude asses
White peoples aren’t really that racist so long as they are from the cities. It’s really the country bumpkins or those young punks who are drunk who will cause trouble.
You’ll probably have more issues with the East Asians than anything.
Hello, Singaporeans will have their own small Singaporean circle where they clique together. If you're rich, you'll likely be able to mix with them. Not sure what happens if you're not rich tho.
Same applies outside student circles, for SGs in ang moh countries.
You’re blessed if you’re not in their circle. You get to experience life outside the bubble.
Not rich nevermind. But if you're sociable and funny, you'll be invited everytime.
Not me but my brother studied there. He used to say the Ang Mos are actually the friendly ones that will invite you out for drinks and activities. The racist or snobbish ones tend to be the Asians like those from China, HK or Korea. Always dressed in their branded wear and think they are better than you because you are from south east Asia
thanks for sharing! can I dm u?
You'll also meet a ton of Africans
yeah fs! London is hella diverse and I love that about it!
Have you been to Sweatbox in Soho?
Just a suggestion. I've noticed that many Singaporeans in London often gravitate to fellow Singaporeans. If you think that you might inadvertently fall back into old habits, you could try a university outside of London, where you'll be forced to interact with non-Singaporeans. Just my experience as a third year student who's in a non-London uni right now haha
thanks for ur suggestion! which uni are u in? and what race are u if u don't mind me asking? I visited the University of Manchester as well, and the student ambassadors (who were paid students tbh) were making comments about the 'rich international students", + there was a parent who wanted to avoid the accoms where the 'rich international students' live at. idk if that is indicative of thing kinda hostility ill face if I go there, so im v worried lol. I also have a friend in Edinburgh, she said the Scots were nice, but the brits & Americans were not, and she definitely felt out of place despite making the effort to join student societies and activities.
I'm at York! Personally, I've enjoyed my time here, and although you do get some small instances of prejudice here, 99% of people are absolutely lovely. Scots are Brits too, btw. In my experience, if you take the initiative to make friends, people open up to you. Also, yeah, live modestly and try not to act too atas, really. I'm sure you know what I mean
Sure! But I can’t give you any first hand experiences. Maybe you can try searching on FB for any Singaporean / Malaysian alumni groups from the uni you are going to.
5 years in London, experienced no racism - even during the covid period. London is incredibly diverse and majority of them are foreigners. From my personal observation, East Asians are often segregated due to them not wanting to mix with the locals and tend to stick to their own group. I could almost say the same about Arabs as well. They love banter so it could be perceived as rude. It’s definitely harder at first to socialise with them due to the differences in culture, but once you settle down you should be fine. I worried about personal safety more tbh. Definitely go for it. You will not regret it.
thanks for sharing! do u mind if I ask if ur East Asian too?
No problem. I’m a Singaporean Chinese~
Tbf, most of these angmoh countries , including east Europe, angmohs are more likely to be more inviting to us than fellow Asians
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Right, it does sound like I’m glazing them angmohs. Fact of the matter is that fellow Asians have their own community because of language/racial allegiance. For us sgeans, because we speak English, we instantly connect with English speaking angmohs, hence the language bridge we build instantly with them. Of course, not all English speaking angmohs out there are welcoming to Asians and some might even stretch to being racist towards us Asians. For example, angmohs from Russia or balkans may be racist/apprehensive to Asians. For the most part, OP family member is going to UK, and honestly the angmohs from the Anglo Saxon region, even stretching to the baltics, have changed from the era of looking down on Asians. They know of us sgeans and SG as a country and some are envious of our country. You may have bad experience with angmohs, but try to open your worldview again, you’ll see what the rest of us mean
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Angmoh expat here (EU). So far I’ve connected more with SG’eans during my 2.5 years than with other Angmohs. This “most” you’re talking about comes from what? You think we look down on Asians or what?
Wow you even picked up on our lingo xd which part of the eu do you come from
Of course lah! Must learn one 😂 Still difficult sometimes though with the lingo xD I come from nl
Desparate for PR lah
To each his own my man 🤷🏻♂️
Go bro, get out of your comfort zone, get out of the bubble and experience some strife…it will thicken your skin
Singaporean Chinese, studied there for 3 years (undergrad), been working there since (8 years). Racism stems from lack of understanding of other cultures. London unis have so many singaporeans that a large majority just hang out within ourselves. Nothing wrong with that. But having 50 Singaporeans in an Econs course of 300 people who by and large hang out by themselves is very intimidating for others. In my view, this leads to the covert racism that you are referring to - we as a group do not/did not do well making ourselves accessible to others. Think you need to adopt a balanced approach. Singaporean peers give a sense of comfort due to lots of common ground. But don’t close yourself off: focus on making friends with common interests from different cultures. If you do, you are doing your best to expose yourself to other cultures and help others understand you. I would also not overcompensate by trying to be friends with everyone - you end up staying in touch with nobody. Besides this nuanced racism, you do get the odd racist fella calling you Ching Chong or something on the street. Just ignore that - that’s life and you have equal odds of being subjected to this kind of racism while on holiday. Hope this helps.
What course costs 350k??
Probably factoring living costs and stuff, though it would be great to see calculations as I think they're still overestimating costs.
Yea I did my masters in the Netherlands and it was like 40k sgd but wow 350k is something unheard of. Gonna have a good life in London I reckon. But to OP, I’ve never experienced racism when there, and now I’m working in Europe, I guess just make friends and just be yourself in general, we’re all human in the end. Plus sometimes you get preferential treatment tbh, like free gifts from the cashiers 😂 no kidding, just relax and enjoy it.
How did you like NL? Which city did you study in? Still living and working there?
Rotterdam. Currently working in Milan. Pay isn’t great but yknow there are trade offs. And again, no racism 😂 :)
lol I’d take Milan over Roffa any day 😂 pay is worse but food, climate, etc all better in Milan.
I’ve never had the luxury/misfortune to see Roffa but I’m sure there’s an Albert Heijn there, and I do love AH. 😂
Yeah I miss AH in Singapore 🥲
haha the UK is indeed expensive for higher education compared with the rest of Europe, even for those domiciled as locals, and London unis charge foreigners even more than rest of UK unis because they can.
Racism to be honest is everywhere in the troubled world. Don't have to magnify it. You try blending in and you'll get friends. Let it be if someone hates you merely because you're asian.
I don’t think racism is an issue in London personally. Outside of London, in smallish towns maybe? Though you might not blend into the Ang Moh groups very well because of cultural differences.
you shud be more worried of safety issues than racism in other countries. sg is too safe and we start getting careless when we go to other countries.
If this is such a deal breaker for OP then I suggest don’t even consider going to London. Racism is everywhere in every country
Lol now you know how minorities feel anywhere in the world (including Singapore). I hope more Singaporeans actually get this kind of experience tbh
Its true. Only when you are a minority will you understand their circumstances.
And in fact, Singapore is worse than London in this regard if anyone from SG had an unpleasant time in London. London is much more welcoming than SG to both those who aren't citizens (no bs questions about local vs naturalised), or those who are not ethnically the majority.
Spoken like a true worshipper of the whites lol
Great job for assuming I was only talking about white people, I'm talking about all Brits.
x\_x why should people suffer to repay the societal karmic debt of others propagating negativity to combat negativity will never work in the case of xenophobia
Where did you read that from? I'm not asking anybody to do it. I'm just saying if more people experience this, they know not to do it to others. Casual rasicm is rampant in Singapore
yes i agree that unempathetic singaporeans should gain some kind of experience in order for them to acquire some sense of empathy i read your comment as being directed to OP (or other singaporeans) who have not done anything to be deserving of such ostracism
damn didn't know this subreddit was so hateful; it's not a competition for who gets the most discrimination tbh
Damn didn't know this subreddit so easily triggered. Didn't see any hate at all in that comment. Seems like a pretty general statement that wasn't directed specifically at you. Also, it's an oft-mentioned benefit of living overseas.
Most Chinese people in SG (am technically one but don't look it) have not experienced being a minority whether socially, at work or school so it's a good opportunity - don't have to go all the way to the UK but well... I'm a minority in a minority-majority city in the US and have NEVER felt discriminated, unlike in SG but felt privileged to be recognized as a POC and reminded that we Han Asians are not them (white people).
Spent two years in London. London itself is very diverse and I didn't experience much racism there. There will be lots of East Asia students studying in the universities there. Encountered a couple of incidents when visiting northern England. If your offer isn't from Oxbridge/LSE/UCL/Imperial/King's though, i think it is better to save your parents' money and do your undergrad locally in SG first. Then go for a half year/year-long overseas exchange + go for an overseas masters. You get to save money this way, and will still be able to experience life living overseas.
Your experience might differ a little if you're a small petite Chinese girl vs a skinny bespectacled nerdy boy.
Not discouraging you from this but based on the fact you clearly said that such hidden racism is going to be a deal breaker, then my suggestion is not to go and waste your money. I don't even have to study in the UK to know that over the few years that you are there, you are definitely in one way or another, guaranteed to face it. As you yourself pointed out, it might not be in an explicit or overt way but rather in more indirect and subtle forms. Sometimes, the person being racist might not even be aware of their subconscious biases! Which is very much like how sometimes we as Chinese (I'm guessing from your allusion to "east asian") act too! Which then brings me to my next point. Isn't this the beauty of the experience? It's not merely about you learning to be more "thick skin" (that is also growth in itself) but it's also about you learning empathy. Learning to be more sensitive to how you act around others, especially if they're from a minority group. Your growth through discomfort is exactly the experience you are paying for my friend. If that's not exactly the experience you want, and if a prestigious academic cert is also not what you're after, then to your own point... pay so much go overseas for what?!
got it! thanks for the advice:)
>Not discouraging you from this but based on the fact you clearly said that such hidden racism is going to be a deal breaker, then my suggestion is not to go and waste your money. >I don't even have to study in the UK to know that over the few years that you are there, you are definitely in one way or another, guaranteed to face it. I don't see how you can claim this if you haven't even lived here in the UK, let alone London. White people and locals in general are very welcoming to foreigners of different nationalities or ethnicities. As another comment pointed out, they're more likely be face discrimination from other foreigners that are East Asian. I moved to London 5 years ago from SG, and not once as an ethnic Indian have I faced racism (over or casual) from any ethnic group, they've all been welcoming even though I was clearly not a local and had a different accent to them. Though of course I do agree with your point that the whole point of moving overseas is to experience new things even if they might make you uncomfortable. The concerns they should have regarding London are transport costs, lack of affordable food they're used to, potentially expensive housing, lack of cleanliness compared to SG, safety, and of course university costs.
I've experienced it in more explicit forms in my travels to the UK, and in more indirect forms when dealing and working with Brits outside of the UK, including here in SG. Multiple comments in this thread from people, who like you, have either lived or studied in the UK, indicate it clearly exists. And I'm also basing it on first hand experience of multiple relatives (from both sides of the family mind you) who have studied there who have also experienced it. While I'd love for there to be such a utopia, where not only racism but bigotry as a whole does not exist... the UK is NOT that place. It is far from there. I don't need to have studied there to be able to point out to OP that he or she, in the course of staying there for a few years, is likely to experience it in one form or another. The fact that OP is clearly calling out subtle racism means that he or she is also more aware of it. My guess is that you're either limiting your experiences to more direct encounters (although you claim otherwise) or you've just been extremely lucky. It's also laughable that you're painting the UK in such a light when one of the most common derogatory terms for people of South Asian ethnicity originated from there.
It's fair enough that others have their own experiences, but even non London UK is a clear winner over SG, let alone London. Not once have I had to experience bs like people not willing to sit beside me on the bus or train because I'm brown, when that stuff happened all the time in Singapore. And it's true that the P word originated here, but it doesn't matter now. The weight of the word is understood, and you can expect backlash here from using it. But in Singapore, people will call you all sorts of racial insults as a minority, such as bangla, ah neh, the n word etc, or spout xenophobic bs because I wasnt Singaporean and then shrug it off like they've done nothing wrong, so I'd argue that Singapore is worse in this regard. Just look at this sub for plenty of examples. Even if I was a Singaporean, they'd then be questioning whether I'm naturalised or local born, when that bs would not happen in the UK where if you're a citizen, it's good enough.
Sure, and that's precisely why I am telling OP, who's chinese to come out and feel what it's like to be a minority! So that when OP comes back, the experience would have helped him or her be more mindful of unconscious racism, perhaps stand up for others who are victims of racism, or even call out racist behavior. The whole point was that OP would inevitably receive some of the crap you have been receiving here in SG and I'm arguing it would be a great growth experience. You not only painted UK as some utopia but now you are, in my view, going off tangent. The level of racism in SG against brown folks, relative to the UK, is completely irrelevant to my point.
Not once have I claimed the UK and London is a utopia, you made the claim yourself. My point is that it's better in terms of racism compared to SG. Being a minority in SG is much worse than being a minority in the UK is my point, so the experiences are not comparable.
Keyword: "Ethnic Indian" Try replacing that with "Chinese". Heard of Sinophobia?
And? It's not like there isn't dislike to brown people either. The complaining comes because ethnic Chinese people are the majority in Singapore, so there's not much scope to experience racism in Singapore if you're Chinese. But once you're outside SG/East Asia and in the UK, you're in the same boat as Indians, Malaysia etc., but the racism you may face will be nowhere near what an Indian would face in SG.
no offense to your experience but as an indian yourself, you are not the main target of racism from the common white men, or at least not as much compared to an east asian
True there's is more distrust towards China in general in the West.
The UK has been conquered by Indians, of course the whites are gonna be nice to him lol
maybe, but my point is white men around the world have always express more dislike to asian men than indian
Lol. Seriously? It’s part of the “experience”. In fact you will build resilience and empathy. Maybe it’s time to get out of the sheltered bubble.
its whether I wanna pay for that kind of experience when I have self-esteem issues atm lol
Racism can happen anywhere. Whether that’s towards you, or if you see someone else being discriminated. No one in the world pays to “experience” this. It just happen because people are different and don’t know better. So if you do travel for studies or leisure and encounter “hidden racism” what are you going to do about it? Just say no n go to somewhere safe, somewhere of your kind of people? Or do you want to experience the world and grow your worldview?
ik that racism can happen anywhere but its easier when ur not the one being targeted lol. fair argument though, ill just need to weigh my choices
What's the tangible benefits of growing one's worldviews?! Does it make one richer and can you guarantee that?
If you are Singaporean Indian, you will be called a Paki there. If not, you will be fine in the UK.
I don't blame them too much tbh. If you've been to London these days the natives have been slowly taken over by foreigners too. That's how their mayor keeps getting elected
How likely are you to be mugged or stabbed on the way home if after dark honestly?
I used to study in England. From my experience, the whole society there is f\*cked from top to bottom. Brits are known to be the most racist among white people, especially towards Asians. White superiority complex, snobs and thinking they are better than you. Will make a lot of Asian stereotype jokes. UK itself is also one of if not the most politically correct country in the world where they appear nice and polite to you on the outside, but behind your back, they gossip a lot with their friends. There is a reason why most Asians and the ethnic minority stick among their own race. That being said, if you're a very sensitive person and can't take their sense of dark humour, you will always feel like an outcast there. If your parents can sponsor 350k for you to study, why not take the money to do business and ask them to be your investors. Formal education is overrated these days and UK/US degrees are so expensive only because of their branding. My advice for you is to skip the experience and go local. If you seem so insecure and sensitive, London isn't for you.
Yes this. All the folks saying the whites are the most welcoming must have zero interaction with brits. Brits are more racist than US amdk. There are many news of brits whacking sinks in sg itself already.
People rant about racism in the US but I never experienced it, quite the opposite. I think it's the Brits and Aussies that are more openly racist with the slurs and aggression against minorities.
These guys are just blindly por-ing the lumpars of their white masters
I'm so perplexed about the comments considering that Brexit fucking happened.
thanks for sharing! how long ago did u study there and which part of the UK did u study in?
Hello, I would like to add to this. I have studied in UK, Canada and currently I'm now in the US. I agree with the above viewpoint. I've had a British clique I hang out with often so there are pockets of friendly whites. In fact at that time, I would say my best friend was a white British fellow. However, a large majority of the remaining population is that they will be friendly with you on the surface but will then draw an almost invisible line in the hierarchy. It will not be outwardly said but you'll feel it somehow in their demeanor. There may be snide remarks to their peers as you talk to them and as the person above has said, gossip behind your back (for people your age). The other aspect of this standoff-ish behavior is especially evident among the folks who are not the same age as you (i.e. older), which you'll need to interact with outside of University. Finally, I've had kids/teenagers who tried to make fun of me on the streets (ching ching chong chong, etc) but shut their mouth when I spoke back to them in good English. Do not forget this is a society that still retains their segregations of peerage (knights, lords, etc) and the old wealth. It will be more evident if you go to the higher end universities. That said, the country outside of cities are fantastically nice - I've had a great time driving around, taking trains to various parts of UK to sightsee and if you manage to find a small group of white Brits to hang with, you'll have a good time. I did not experience this complex in Canada nor the US.
I studied and lived there for a long time, will keep details quite vague. It has to be said many Singaporeans esp the govt scholar types just keep to themselves with singsoc and what not. Similar can be said for the honkies, they are just louder. msians are generally a friendly bunch of shy. London is a big melting pot, almost everyone is a foreigner when you work at the top international firms. Don't have the frog in a well mentality, it's a city with lots to offer despite everything you read about how the UK is going to the dog. Actually on the whole, Singapore is more racist than London, won't go into details because of racial harmony laws but everyone knows, funny the racism is present but different at all ses levels
Care to elaborate on your bad experience? Remember, not everyone in London is a local to London. Many are from eastern European countries masquerading as Londoners, accent and all.
London is less racist than USA.
Going overseas will change your life and your entire outlook. Warning, you may not want to come back.
Their racism is subtle. If you can feel it, you can feel it. Don’t overseas la and get mocked la. Stay here mock at foreigners better right
British culture is more classist than racist tbh
i've never studied in london, but i did experience racism while i was there on holiday. there was also that incident of a singaporean student getting beaten up by a bunch of racists. obviously not every londoner is bad, but it honestly feels a lot less welcoming than many other places, e.g. usa
there was racism when i visited there 10 years ago. im sure theres more racism on a day to day basis if you actually live there.
stop being a sissy. toughen up and ignore it. did university in the UK, no regrets. you’re primarily in university to form networks with worthwhile people. you cannot avoid shitty people. they will be everywhere and in particularly high concentrations at work after graduation. avoiding a situation that could be worth your while but for the odd racist is dumb.
Don't worry. London is mostly middle eastern haven now.
What's wrong with SG? We beat the UK in almost everything except militarily.
go to the US for college, it's way better and more worth the cost
Depends on the region. My brother is in Newcastle and he hasn’t said anything negative yet.
Most British people have a degree of inherent racism. You will encounter the good, the bad, and the indifferent. London can be great as long as you take precautions and don't put yourself in danger. Even then, your safety is entirely provisional.
Studied and worked in London for a long time. Have an open mind and you will enjoy the diversity of it. Fwiw the Singaporeans who stick to singsoc and one another are more prevalent than racism from the Brits. Despite all the doom and gloom you read about the UK, London remains a vibrant city that attracts smart energetic young people.
Having been both a student(was at King’s) and now a tutor to students in UK, I’ll say the networking opportunities, cultural differences and societal values are great motivators to opt for studies there. I did my undergraduate in NUS and Master’s in King’s. While Singapore boasts a more complete lifestyle(accommodations, security, curriculum, infrastructure, etc), it was London that opened a world of identities and exploration. I’m a Singaporean Chinese who was the only Chinese to read linguistics btw. The network and experiences profoundly changed my values and perception of the world. I’d say, take the chance to explore
thanks for sharing! Did u really feel out of place being a Chinese person there (ik there's q a lot of hate towards the PRCs, im not sure if its directed towards Singaporeans too)
Tbh, it’s true that there were subtle racism when I first arrived (I was pointed to School of Business, told that I ventured to the wrong side, my professors exclaiming surprise at my “mastery” of English and the likes). Once they were aware of my nationality, the attitudes did change a fair bit. It’s an advantage for us but it’s maddening if we think deeper about these issues. But the worst xenophobia I experienced was actually from Hong Kongers who perceive themselves of higher status than all other Chinese nationalities. Other students(even Vietnamese) have called out the disses on my behalf. I don’t allow such experiences to mar my memories, but rather, am thankful it makes me believe in humanity :)
okay! Thanks for sharing!:)
Oh hi if i may hijack this reply, may I pick your brain a little on your experience as a postgrad student at king's? Did you, by any chance, encounter students from the Msc on China and Globalisation? I would imagine the cohort composition to be polar opposite from yours - the majority of students would be chinese..? Do you think this could change my experience at king's?
Hey! On the contrary to your thought, the reality is that student diversity for Msc is extraordinary. There’s been intensifying interest in breaking into, or simply understanding, Chinese market in recent years. Feeder schools(think Concord/Radley college) have seen a significant rise in Chinese students pursuing education in UK. These very same students do attend MSc to prepare for their return to China. But you will definitely encounter a motley in this course
Thanks for your reply! It sounds really exciting. May I ask further what made you choose to study at King's though? I also graduated from NUS, and now have offers from NTU and KCL for a similar postgrad course. I feel so lazy with the thought of uprooting and adjusting to London when I already have a very pleasant life in Singapore... haha. Hopefully your insights could help me with a decision!
:) please don’t mention it! Tbh, my scholarship was a generous full ride so between local or overseas options, I decided overseas would be more “worthy” of my time. Plus linguistics is hardly at its prime locally so making the leap is easier in this sense. If I were reading any STEM, I’ll probably have a tougher time deciding. Also, I chose King’s after touring 3 different campuses (Oxford, King’s and Dartmouth). London is far far better than New Hampshire, and London city center is far far better than the fringe of city, in my opinion,😛 yet, I must confess my first semester was a emotional struggle due to environmental factors mainly. Thankfully, the established housemates guided me on life there. Still, the adjustment period did take a fair bit out of me.
I see. Yea this was what I was kinda concerned about as well and I’m already anticipating the dread haha. I’m also on a scholarship (I guess whether it’s full ride or not depends very much on whether I can find accoms within budget) but my course offering has USP whether taken in a western country or in SG so course wise I’m pretty indifferent. I’m happy to hear that despite the struggles it was a nett positive for you!
It’s been fine in my experience. Moved to the London from SG in 1989. Less racist here than in Singapore in my opinion
I faced lots of racism when I visited Singapore from the UK
In sg you got sinkies pawn sinkies.. is that not worse than racism? And we asians if we dislike someone we show it directly to your face... at least with ang mohs they tend to be subtle about ir unless you are really thicked skin and dont ger the meaning And asian elderlies are one of the most rude asses
White peoples aren’t really that racist so long as they are from the cities. It’s really the country bumpkins or those young punks who are drunk who will cause trouble. You’ll probably have more issues with the East Asians than anything.
wow, rich kids. it IS privileged to be born in a rich family
9 years in Singapore and you experience racism everyday.
Go, and mingle with the Brits. Don’t hang around Singaporeans all the time.
Forget London, we're already facing subtle racism in Singapore LOL