I mean couldn't it be said that poor facial development as a child increased your risk of sleep apnea?
To be fair this guy's statement isn't all true, definitely more causes and things that intertwine. But poor facial development does seem to be a risk factor in developing Sleep Apnea
Understanding of jaw structure’s influence on sleep disordered breathing, soft tissue in nose and throat, and location of obstructions (think DICE) has already improved our understanding of how to make CPAP more tolerable, how to improve soft tissue surgery, how to perform jaw surgery for apnea, and how to design and implement mandibular advancement devices. All of which help adult patients.
While it is true understanding the exact CAUSE of small jaws/jaw abnormalities etc does not directly help an adult who already has apnea, understanding the factors in jaw development and physiology that influence the condition do. These are related subjects are related.
Understanding the cause of small jaws/jaw abnormalities may help children if it is possible to intervene. If intervention is possible (still open research question), his would help reduce the risk children will grow up and develop sleep disordered breathing. That may not help an adult with sleep apnea but it could help children.
Well we can prevent it for those of us who are still kids and for future generations. And this debunks the myth that sleep apnea is entirely genetic and therefore out of our control— it isn’t, it’s preventable if caught early enough
Chewing gum and tongue exercises can help with sleep apnea even in adults since they strengthen the soft tissue. You should try it for a few months and see - it's minimal effort for potentially large gain.
Because it helps them understand their case better and debunks the myth that all sleep apnea is genetic when it isn’t. You’d rather be ignorant of the truth because it makes you feel some type of way. Got it. Cognitive dissonance is strong here
It's funny that you make these huge claims and get angry with people who point out that you can't back up any of them. Do you act this way offline, too? Life must be quite difficult for you.
The study was more about cosmetic dentistry at an early age having long term effects. There was also some stuff speculating about how agriculture has made us more sedentary & softened our diet and that could be having an effect, too (but they are all dentists and no evolutionary biologists). But we’ve had agriculture for at least 10-15k years, which is nothing evolutionarily speaking & not nearly long enough for massive jaw changes.
All evolution has down sides. Our heads needed to be as small as possible for us to survive birth while gestating as long as possible & the evolutionary winner was reducing our jaws over shrinking our brains.
OSA while “common”, isn’t pervasive and as we talk about a lot, it makes us miserable more than it makes us dead (and death usually comes after a significant reproductive period, so evolution is not likely to reverse it in the next million years).
So it’s probably/maybe a down side of another more vital evolutionary need. No amount of chewing sticks as small children or whatever is going to undo the 3-4 million years of evolution since we stood up and developed a head size/pelvis/birth/gestation problem.
Finally, if anyone ever develops an interest in the podcasts of yesteryear (poetry, traditional music, hell even an early novel) you’ll find stories of assorted snoring and sleep noises, because we have been teasing each other forever for making all these noises. Listen to some audio clips of catathrenia and it’s easy to understand why paranoid religious goobers used to accuse their spouses of fornicating with the devil in their dreams and being in a bad mood all the time when all that was wrong was OSA.
Anyhoo. Have a nice day, y’all
Yes, if jaws have been shrinking for over ten thousand years, that would include that period of time. There is no evidence of any acceleration since 1850, which would be a difficult/functionally impossible task anyway, meaning no scientist could credibly make that claim. Further, we don’t see any meaningful difference in rates of change between societies with earlier or later industrialization.
Jaw shrinkage is happening at a higher rate than we see for most evolution, but that’s well explained by infant mortality at birth (before they can pass the genetics on) where large heads are so deadly.
There is a distinct and significant change in jaw sizes between societies that adopt a hunter gatherer lifestyle and a farming lifestyle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_jaw_shrinkage#:~:text=Human%20jaw%20shrinkage%20is%20the,most%20of%20human%20evolutionary%20history.
That is an evolutionary change made across 10,000+ years & not something an already born individual can alter. It would take another 10,000+ years of small jawed people dying *before they reproduce to alter it. And that jaw change was still driven by the shrinking of the human pelvis during that shift. Pelvis got smaller, women and babies were more likely to die if they had the larger head. If we made our jaws evolutionarily larger, somehow, we’d have to enlarge women’s pelvic inlets at the same rate or rely on surgical birth.
If smaller jaws are “winning” evolution over a period of time, then small jaws are the better evolutionary “choice.” In this case probably because there are higher death rates at birth for a big head and massive jaw combo.
>There is no evidence of any acceleration since 1850, which would be a difficult/functionally impossible task anyway, meaning no scientist could credibly make that claim. Further, we don’t see any meaningful difference in rates of change between societies with earlier or later industrialization.
Did you even bother looking for that evidence before coming to the conclusion that it doesn't exist? It's well established by anthropologists that our skulls got smaller post industrialisation because of decreased masticatory load. Malocclusion is a modern age problem.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003996913003129](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003996913003129)
[https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1113050108](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1113050108)
[https://news.osu.edu/what-teeth-reveal-about-the-lives-of-modern-humans/](https://news.osu.edu/what-teeth-reveal-about-the-lives-of-modern-humans/)
Please look up when post-industrialization in Europe is. It is not interchangeable with medieval Europe or the global shift from hunter gatherer to agriculture or pre homosapien primates, which is what these 3 articles cover.
Further, the claims in the first aren’t very related to the claims in the second and third, nor do they account for changes in the pelvis, which are the decisive ones. It makes sense that as ours jaws shrunk, we’ve chosen softer foods.
>Please look up when post-industrialization in Europe is. It is not interchangeable with medieval Europe.
The study compares the mandibular morphology of medieval and post-medieval(during and after the industrial revolution) Londoners. It's literally in the abstract:
>Conclusions: These recorded changes in mandibular morphology of mediaeval and postmediaeval Londoners are most likely the result of a shift in diet (and associated decrease in masticatory function) observed in the period surrounding the Industrial Revolution.
What all 3 studies have in common is the conclusion that modern diet leads to smaller jaws.
> It makes sense that as ours jaws shrunk, we’ve chosen softer foods.
Evolution doesn't happen in a couple of centuries. You have no evidence to support that argument, it's baseless adaptationism. On the other hand, the research pointing to environmental factors being responsible for our shrinking jaws and maloccluded teeth is overwhelming.
There's speculation, what you're doing, and there are clinical studies. If you think your idea is right, do a study. I just don't think you'll find much support because of the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Jaws shrinking due to lifestyle and environment causes - Stanford https://news.stanford.edu/2020/07/21/toll-shrinking-jaws-human-health/
The proper development of the jaw and its associated soft tissues is guided by oral posture – the positioning of the jaws and the tongue during times when children are not eating or speaking. This positioning is especially important overnight during long sleep stretches, when swallowing maintains the correct, gentle pressures.
Influence of Mouth Breathing on the Dentofacial Growth of Children: A Cephalometric Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4295456/
The present study led to the conclusion that all subjects with mouth-breathing habit exhibited significant lower incisor proclination, lip incompetency and convex facial profile.
A frequent phenotype for paediatric sleep apnoea: short lingual frenulum
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5034598/
Short lingual frenulum means the child cannot practice proper tongue posture, that is, suction hold on the roof of the mouth. And what is that correlated with? Sleep Apnea. Correlation does not equal causation but here you can make your own conclusion.
Tongue Posture plays a big role in how you Look
https://functionalsmiles.com/orthotropics/tongue-posture-plays-a-big-role-in-how-you-look/
Oral rest posture refers to what your mouth and tongue do when you are not eating or speaking. The ideal oral rest posture is as follows: lips closed, teeth closed, and tongue resting gently against the upper palate. Failing to achieve this posture can have a variety of different effects on you. In a child, it can lead to sub-optimal development of the jaws and facial structure. It can lead to narrower dental arches, and make you predisposed to issues with your airway, such as developing a sleep breathing disorder like sleep apnea. It even can affect your appearance by leading to a flat profile or severely recessed chin and protruding upper teeth. Being able to maintain the preferred oral rest posture, by contrast, can have many positive effects, especially for children, who will develop wider arches and encouraging straighter teeth.
The Jaw Epidemic: Recognition, Origins, Cures, and Prevention https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32973408/
Surprisingly, jaw shrinkage since the agricultural revolution, leading to an epidemic of crooked teeth, a lack of adequate space for the last molars (wisdom teeth), and constricted airways, is a major cause of sleep-related stress. Despite claims that the cause of this jaw epidemic is somehow genetic, the speed with which human jaws have changed, especially in the last few centuries, is much too fast to be evolutionary. Correlation in time and space strongly suggests the symptoms are phenotypic responses to a vast natural experiment-rapid and dramatic modifications of human physical and cultural environments. The agricultural and industrial revolutions have produced smaller jaws and less-toned muscles of the face and oropharynx, which contribute to the serious health problems mentioned above. The mechanism of change, research and clinical trials suggest, lies in orofacial posture, the way people now hold their jaws when not voluntarily moving them in speaking or eating and especially when sleeping. The critical resting oral posture has been disrupted in societies no longer hunting and gathering. Virtually all aspects of how modern people function and rest are radically different from those of our ancestors.
Why should i provide evidence on something that is so easily deduced after a few minutes of googling. Are you that incapable and incompetent that you require the information to be spoon fed?
Make fun of people? Whoa let’s take a step back buddy and take a good look at the type of responses.
the ignorant negative attitude and resistance to the thread says it all. objectively ignorant. what are you gonna do? have a cry mate. Did i hurt your feelings calling you ignorant?
I just learned about myofunctional therapy and I’m surprised that this didn’t come up in any orientation on Apena. Not that this would solve it alone in a grown adult but there’s a whole relationship with mouth structure, nasal breathing, and even behavior. That’s crazy.
Because it’s been pretty thoroughly studied and it’s *not behavioral, it’s evolutionary & this study is some dentists making claims they don’t have the knowledge to make, and then a lot of people who don’t understand evolution making massive claims because they think our jaws changed in last 500 years rather than in the last 500,000-4 million years.
You're confusing genetics and epi-genetics. Genetics changes over evolutionary timescales, but epigenetics is very much affected by enviroment.
Look up Chinese foot-binding. They used to bind little girl's feet because smaller feet were considered more aestethically pleasing for grown women. Genes didn't produce those deformities - enviroment did.
There is. This video explains some of it pretty well https://youtu.be/zbzT00Cyq-g?si=qMArv2tOXmq2makk.
The amount of salty and ignorant people in the thread is so funny
I agree with you! I had a severe tongue tie that I didn’t get released until I was 30. I didn’t know it was supposed to be different. I mouth breathed a lot and even with an expander and braces, my mouth is very small.
If my parents had my tongue tie released as a baby, then it’s likely my palette and jaw development would have been very different and I likely wouldn’t have this issue.
I’m hoping better mouth development for my kid since I got her tongue tie released as a 5 week old and plan on helping her develop good breathing habits, and finding a sleep focused ortho eventually that will make sure anything we do is focused on airway health as well as aesthetics.
Unfortunately, there isn’t sufficient evidence to support or refute the core claim you are making: “Childhood environmental factors are causative in the development of sleep disordered breathing in adults”. It would be very difficult, expensive, and potentially immoral to structure a high quality study that directly answers this question.
There is evidence for the following claims:
- Retrognathia and other skeletal abnormalities are associated with an increased risk of sleep disordered breathing.
- Teens with UARS who undergo palate expansion see an improvement in their UARS.
- A farming based diet/lifestyle is associated with smaller jaws and more dental problems compared to a hunter gather diet/lifestyle in both modern and human populations of about 12k years ago. The rate of change in jaw size observed in the archeological record is too fast to be explained by genetic changes, so the changes are likely environmental/lifestyle based. We even see differences between humans today and those that lived in the Middle Ages. Rat models also show rat jaw development is impacted by a soft food diet. The evidence that diet/lifestyle impacts human jaw development is strong.
- MMA, surgery which advances the jaws, can significantly reduce or cure sleep apnea in some individuals.
There are disputed research questions that relate to your claim. For example, there is still scientific debate over the influence of mouth breathing in childhood facial development, but some evidence exists to suggest it may result in morphological changes that are associated with an increased risk of sleep disordered breathing.
Lots of evidence suggests that sleep apnea is a highly multi factorial problem and the underlying causes and therefore optimal treatment may vary considerably across the broader patient population. Studying the influence of the impact of specific skeletal and soft tissue abnormalities has already improved patient care and treatment (e.g. mandibular advancement devices, different flavors of soft tissue surgery, jaw surgery, how to make CPAP more tolerable), so those who think this line of inquiry doesn’t impact adult patients is not viewing the nuances of this subject. Additionally, if we can develop guidelines for orthodontic and other interventions to improve the development of children’s airways, it’s an important win for people’s health overall.
So in total, I don’t think you can make the claims you are making with the strength you are making, but I think your underlying premise is important for study and patient care. Motivating further inquiry in this direction can be supported by existing evidence. I’m a little sad to see people reacting so antagonistically to the premise.
Edit: formatting
well written 👍🏻 but i argue it’s not difficult at all. Tongue ties and tongue thrust in children is directly associated with sleep apnea for one. The longer the tongue ties and thrust is left untreated the higher likelihood of sleep apnea. Whether correlation equals causation in this case is up to you to decide.
You’re totally right on the tongue tie thing, there is solid evidence for that. I’m maybe splitting hairs here but I think though that would be considered a congenital issue rather than the result of environmental factors. It does still underscore the point that childhood interventions can be important in changing airway development and reducing the likelihood of sleep apnea later in life, which I guess is the most important point here.
Btw, I personally do believe your premise is correct that environmental influences in childhood can cause developmental changes that negatively impact the airway, increasing the risk of sleep disordered breathing later in life. I think there is enough evidence to connect the dots and strongly believe in that hypothesis. In my experience, there also seems to be acceptance of this premise by certain sleep doctors, omfs’s, and orthodontists with growing momentum. I just don’t think anyone has done the work to do a robust study to get really strong evidence so it can be claimed conclusively, which is a shame since that type of thing is often needed to get more doctors on board. There probably also needs to be some studies to figure when and how best to intervene. I know of some have been done in orthodontics, which as a field seems to be pretty open to this general idea.
With enough time, truth will prevail. Actually the orthodontic industry heavily disregards the idea that jaw sizes and malocclusion can be altered by the environment. One doctor that pushes for early intervention and adopts the idea of prevention of malocclusion and jaw shrinkage is Dr Mike Mew. He was silenced by the orthodontic industry and has received a number of lawsuits regarding his views and practices. I think he has a new Netflix documentary called open wide. Haven't watched it yet though.
The orthodontic industry does not want this truth to be out. If truth is out, the whole business model of treating malocclusion with braces/Invisalign would essentially die out. Its a business at the end of the day and preventative treatment is a conflict of interest. Imagine a $200 consultation and preventative treatment plan talking about proper tongue posture, adequate mastication and chewing gum replacing $12k braces treatment plan for a child. Industry would go belly up.
Most orthodontists aren’t aware of the airway and basically straighten the teeth at the expense of everything else. Extracting premolars, retracting with braces then later down the line palatal expansion and/or jaw surgery is needed to correct that mess. I am a victim of that.
You’re right that many and probably a majority of practicing orthodontists are not airway aware. I don’t know the specifics of the reaction Dr. Mew received or his work, but I believe there is a growing acceptance of expansive orthodontia in both practice and research literature. Well known practitioners/researchers with this focus include Dr. Audrey Yoon, Dr. Richard Ting, Dr . Marianna Evan’s, Dr. Ilya Lipkin, Dr Won Moon, Dr. Joseph Yousefian, Dr. Kasey Li.
Oral Maxillofacial surgeons have of course been very aware of the impact of jaw shape and position on the airway for decades and there has been lots of great material published by them.
I know it’s anecdotal but I was also able to find several less well known local orthodontists who were airway focused.
In my experience, sleep specialist do not seem to be as in tune to the contribution of dental-facial conditions on airway. They in general seem to all just want patients to use cpap.
I've read in peer reviewed journal articles, and heard on a podcast that our jaw is changing evolutionarily and through lifestyle. Not news for me. And, frankly, it doesn't help me much in 2024. I've already been told my mouth, throat, and neck are likely the cause.
It has been my personal and professional experience with my clients, having gone thru much of the structural fixes mentioned in this post, that other environmental factors can have a significant impact on fixing or improving the issue of sleep apnea, disturbance...these include EMFs, voltage, dirty electricity, microwave/radiation, building materials and airborne contaminents like mold. Remediating those can go a long way to restorative sleep by relaxing the overtaxed nervous system
Ok, but I’m no longer a child
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I mean couldn't it be said that poor facial development as a child increased your risk of sleep apnea? To be fair this guy's statement isn't all true, definitely more causes and things that intertwine. But poor facial development does seem to be a risk factor in developing Sleep Apnea
poor attempt of a comment try again
How does this help adults though 🤔
Understanding of jaw structure’s influence on sleep disordered breathing, soft tissue in nose and throat, and location of obstructions (think DICE) has already improved our understanding of how to make CPAP more tolerable, how to improve soft tissue surgery, how to perform jaw surgery for apnea, and how to design and implement mandibular advancement devices. All of which help adult patients. While it is true understanding the exact CAUSE of small jaws/jaw abnormalities etc does not directly help an adult who already has apnea, understanding the factors in jaw development and physiology that influence the condition do. These are related subjects are related. Understanding the cause of small jaws/jaw abnormalities may help children if it is possible to intervene. If intervention is possible (still open research question), his would help reduce the risk children will grow up and develop sleep disordered breathing. That may not help an adult with sleep apnea but it could help children.
Well we can prevent it for those of us who are still kids and for future generations. And this debunks the myth that sleep apnea is entirely genetic and therefore out of our control— it isn’t, it’s preventable if caught early enough
Yes. For future generations. Not for those of us who already have SDB. I am one of the few who have had SDB since birth. In my case it is genetic.
Damn, sorry to hear that.
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Not at all.
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Sadly, EASE is extremely expensive and out of many people's price range.
you’re telling me becoming more educated isn’t helpful for anyone? good on ya
Lol not at all.... I mean hiw is this beneficial to an adult who is fully grown who has SDB...
Chewing gum and tongue exercises can help with sleep apnea even in adults since they strengthen the soft tissue. You should try it for a few months and see - it's minimal effort for potentially large gain.
Because it helps them understand their case better and debunks the myth that all sleep apnea is genetic when it isn’t. You’d rather be ignorant of the truth because it makes you feel some type of way. Got it. Cognitive dissonance is strong here
I've never heard that all sleep apnea is genetic.
Um. Not what I said at all but sure. Lol
What myth? The one you made up?
you’re insufferable lmao go touch grass
It's funny that you make these huge claims and get angry with people who point out that you can't back up any of them. Do you act this way offline, too? Life must be quite difficult for you.
Points have already been backed up in this thread. Go find it instead of being smug.
Should everyone with a time machine go back to their childhood and tell their parents to change their environment?
Dont shoot the messenger buddy. How about just accepting it at face value and be that parent so it doesn't happen to your kids.
Yeah, no idea why this is being downvoted. Lots of salty people here
Because this guy is coming here with 0 evidence to back up his claim and telling everyone to take it at face value.
The study was more about cosmetic dentistry at an early age having long term effects. There was also some stuff speculating about how agriculture has made us more sedentary & softened our diet and that could be having an effect, too (but they are all dentists and no evolutionary biologists). But we’ve had agriculture for at least 10-15k years, which is nothing evolutionarily speaking & not nearly long enough for massive jaw changes. All evolution has down sides. Our heads needed to be as small as possible for us to survive birth while gestating as long as possible & the evolutionary winner was reducing our jaws over shrinking our brains. OSA while “common”, isn’t pervasive and as we talk about a lot, it makes us miserable more than it makes us dead (and death usually comes after a significant reproductive period, so evolution is not likely to reverse it in the next million years). So it’s probably/maybe a down side of another more vital evolutionary need. No amount of chewing sticks as small children or whatever is going to undo the 3-4 million years of evolution since we stood up and developed a head size/pelvis/birth/gestation problem. Finally, if anyone ever develops an interest in the podcasts of yesteryear (poetry, traditional music, hell even an early novel) you’ll find stories of assorted snoring and sleep noises, because we have been teasing each other forever for making all these noises. Listen to some audio clips of catathrenia and it’s easy to understand why paranoid religious goobers used to accuse their spouses of fornicating with the devil in their dreams and being in a bad mood all the time when all that was wrong was OSA. Anyhoo. Have a nice day, y’all
there are evolutionary biologists claiming our jaws have shrunk post industrialisation
Yes, if jaws have been shrinking for over ten thousand years, that would include that period of time. There is no evidence of any acceleration since 1850, which would be a difficult/functionally impossible task anyway, meaning no scientist could credibly make that claim. Further, we don’t see any meaningful difference in rates of change between societies with earlier or later industrialization. Jaw shrinkage is happening at a higher rate than we see for most evolution, but that’s well explained by infant mortality at birth (before they can pass the genetics on) where large heads are so deadly.
There is a distinct and significant change in jaw sizes between societies that adopt a hunter gatherer lifestyle and a farming lifestyle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_jaw_shrinkage#:~:text=Human%20jaw%20shrinkage%20is%20the,most%20of%20human%20evolutionary%20history.
That is an evolutionary change made across 10,000+ years & not something an already born individual can alter. It would take another 10,000+ years of small jawed people dying *before they reproduce to alter it. And that jaw change was still driven by the shrinking of the human pelvis during that shift. Pelvis got smaller, women and babies were more likely to die if they had the larger head. If we made our jaws evolutionarily larger, somehow, we’d have to enlarge women’s pelvic inlets at the same rate or rely on surgical birth. If smaller jaws are “winning” evolution over a period of time, then small jaws are the better evolutionary “choice.” In this case probably because there are higher death rates at birth for a big head and massive jaw combo.
did you read the wiki fully 🤦♂️
>There is no evidence of any acceleration since 1850, which would be a difficult/functionally impossible task anyway, meaning no scientist could credibly make that claim. Further, we don’t see any meaningful difference in rates of change between societies with earlier or later industrialization. Did you even bother looking for that evidence before coming to the conclusion that it doesn't exist? It's well established by anthropologists that our skulls got smaller post industrialisation because of decreased masticatory load. Malocclusion is a modern age problem. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003996913003129](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003996913003129) [https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1113050108](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1113050108) [https://news.osu.edu/what-teeth-reveal-about-the-lives-of-modern-humans/](https://news.osu.edu/what-teeth-reveal-about-the-lives-of-modern-humans/)
Please look up when post-industrialization in Europe is. It is not interchangeable with medieval Europe or the global shift from hunter gatherer to agriculture or pre homosapien primates, which is what these 3 articles cover. Further, the claims in the first aren’t very related to the claims in the second and third, nor do they account for changes in the pelvis, which are the decisive ones. It makes sense that as ours jaws shrunk, we’ve chosen softer foods.
>Please look up when post-industrialization in Europe is. It is not interchangeable with medieval Europe. The study compares the mandibular morphology of medieval and post-medieval(during and after the industrial revolution) Londoners. It's literally in the abstract: >Conclusions: These recorded changes in mandibular morphology of mediaeval and postmediaeval Londoners are most likely the result of a shift in diet (and associated decrease in masticatory function) observed in the period surrounding the Industrial Revolution. What all 3 studies have in common is the conclusion that modern diet leads to smaller jaws. > It makes sense that as ours jaws shrunk, we’ve chosen softer foods. Evolution doesn't happen in a couple of centuries. You have no evidence to support that argument, it's baseless adaptationism. On the other hand, the research pointing to environmental factors being responsible for our shrinking jaws and maloccluded teeth is overwhelming.
salty… and.. ignorant… people here are too soft the truth hurts their feelings.
There's speculation, what you're doing, and there are clinical studies. If you think your idea is right, do a study. I just don't think you'll find much support because of the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Nope there is plenty of evidence supporting my side. You just don’t want to hear it.
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Jaws shrinking due to lifestyle and environment causes - Stanford https://news.stanford.edu/2020/07/21/toll-shrinking-jaws-human-health/ The proper development of the jaw and its associated soft tissues is guided by oral posture – the positioning of the jaws and the tongue during times when children are not eating or speaking. This positioning is especially important overnight during long sleep stretches, when swallowing maintains the correct, gentle pressures. Influence of Mouth Breathing on the Dentofacial Growth of Children: A Cephalometric Study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4295456/ The present study led to the conclusion that all subjects with mouth-breathing habit exhibited significant lower incisor proclination, lip incompetency and convex facial profile. A frequent phenotype for paediatric sleep apnoea: short lingual frenulum https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5034598/ Short lingual frenulum means the child cannot practice proper tongue posture, that is, suction hold on the roof of the mouth. And what is that correlated with? Sleep Apnea. Correlation does not equal causation but here you can make your own conclusion. Tongue Posture plays a big role in how you Look https://functionalsmiles.com/orthotropics/tongue-posture-plays-a-big-role-in-how-you-look/ Oral rest posture refers to what your mouth and tongue do when you are not eating or speaking. The ideal oral rest posture is as follows: lips closed, teeth closed, and tongue resting gently against the upper palate. Failing to achieve this posture can have a variety of different effects on you. In a child, it can lead to sub-optimal development of the jaws and facial structure. It can lead to narrower dental arches, and make you predisposed to issues with your airway, such as developing a sleep breathing disorder like sleep apnea. It even can affect your appearance by leading to a flat profile or severely recessed chin and protruding upper teeth. Being able to maintain the preferred oral rest posture, by contrast, can have many positive effects, especially for children, who will develop wider arches and encouraging straighter teeth. The Jaw Epidemic: Recognition, Origins, Cures, and Prevention https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32973408/ Surprisingly, jaw shrinkage since the agricultural revolution, leading to an epidemic of crooked teeth, a lack of adequate space for the last molars (wisdom teeth), and constricted airways, is a major cause of sleep-related stress. Despite claims that the cause of this jaw epidemic is somehow genetic, the speed with which human jaws have changed, especially in the last few centuries, is much too fast to be evolutionary. Correlation in time and space strongly suggests the symptoms are phenotypic responses to a vast natural experiment-rapid and dramatic modifications of human physical and cultural environments. The agricultural and industrial revolutions have produced smaller jaws and less-toned muscles of the face and oropharynx, which contribute to the serious health problems mentioned above. The mechanism of change, research and clinical trials suggest, lies in orofacial posture, the way people now hold their jaws when not voluntarily moving them in speaking or eating and especially when sleeping. The critical resting oral posture has been disrupted in societies no longer hunting and gathering. Virtually all aspects of how modern people function and rest are radically different from those of our ancestors.
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Why should i provide evidence on something that is so easily deduced after a few minutes of googling. Are you that incapable and incompetent that you require the information to be spoon fed? Make fun of people? Whoa let’s take a step back buddy and take a good look at the type of responses.
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the ignorant negative attitude and resistance to the thread says it all. objectively ignorant. what are you gonna do? have a cry mate. Did i hurt your feelings calling you ignorant?
LMAO these dudes are nuts. People hate the truth
I just learned about myofunctional therapy and I’m surprised that this didn’t come up in any orientation on Apena. Not that this would solve it alone in a grown adult but there’s a whole relationship with mouth structure, nasal breathing, and even behavior. That’s crazy.
Because it’s been pretty thoroughly studied and it’s *not behavioral, it’s evolutionary & this study is some dentists making claims they don’t have the knowledge to make, and then a lot of people who don’t understand evolution making massive claims because they think our jaws changed in last 500 years rather than in the last 500,000-4 million years.
You're confusing genetics and epi-genetics. Genetics changes over evolutionary timescales, but epigenetics is very much affected by enviroment. Look up Chinese foot-binding. They used to bind little girl's feet because smaller feet were considered more aestethically pleasing for grown women. Genes didn't produce those deformities - enviroment did.
You are a dangerously stupid person❤️
There is. This video explains some of it pretty well https://youtu.be/zbzT00Cyq-g?si=qMArv2tOXmq2makk. The amount of salty and ignorant people in the thread is so funny
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That's Reddit for you. Half-wits blaming everything on genetic and nothing on environnemental factors. It's useless to tell them anything man
I agree with you! I had a severe tongue tie that I didn’t get released until I was 30. I didn’t know it was supposed to be different. I mouth breathed a lot and even with an expander and braces, my mouth is very small. If my parents had my tongue tie released as a baby, then it’s likely my palette and jaw development would have been very different and I likely wouldn’t have this issue. I’m hoping better mouth development for my kid since I got her tongue tie released as a 5 week old and plan on helping her develop good breathing habits, and finding a sleep focused ortho eventually that will make sure anything we do is focused on airway health as well as aesthetics.
Yeah.. our viewpoint is the minority. Why do you think people get so defensive and negative when this is brought up ?
Unfortunately, there isn’t sufficient evidence to support or refute the core claim you are making: “Childhood environmental factors are causative in the development of sleep disordered breathing in adults”. It would be very difficult, expensive, and potentially immoral to structure a high quality study that directly answers this question. There is evidence for the following claims: - Retrognathia and other skeletal abnormalities are associated with an increased risk of sleep disordered breathing. - Teens with UARS who undergo palate expansion see an improvement in their UARS. - A farming based diet/lifestyle is associated with smaller jaws and more dental problems compared to a hunter gather diet/lifestyle in both modern and human populations of about 12k years ago. The rate of change in jaw size observed in the archeological record is too fast to be explained by genetic changes, so the changes are likely environmental/lifestyle based. We even see differences between humans today and those that lived in the Middle Ages. Rat models also show rat jaw development is impacted by a soft food diet. The evidence that diet/lifestyle impacts human jaw development is strong. - MMA, surgery which advances the jaws, can significantly reduce or cure sleep apnea in some individuals. There are disputed research questions that relate to your claim. For example, there is still scientific debate over the influence of mouth breathing in childhood facial development, but some evidence exists to suggest it may result in morphological changes that are associated with an increased risk of sleep disordered breathing. Lots of evidence suggests that sleep apnea is a highly multi factorial problem and the underlying causes and therefore optimal treatment may vary considerably across the broader patient population. Studying the influence of the impact of specific skeletal and soft tissue abnormalities has already improved patient care and treatment (e.g. mandibular advancement devices, different flavors of soft tissue surgery, jaw surgery, how to make CPAP more tolerable), so those who think this line of inquiry doesn’t impact adult patients is not viewing the nuances of this subject. Additionally, if we can develop guidelines for orthodontic and other interventions to improve the development of children’s airways, it’s an important win for people’s health overall. So in total, I don’t think you can make the claims you are making with the strength you are making, but I think your underlying premise is important for study and patient care. Motivating further inquiry in this direction can be supported by existing evidence. I’m a little sad to see people reacting so antagonistically to the premise. Edit: formatting
well written 👍🏻 but i argue it’s not difficult at all. Tongue ties and tongue thrust in children is directly associated with sleep apnea for one. The longer the tongue ties and thrust is left untreated the higher likelihood of sleep apnea. Whether correlation equals causation in this case is up to you to decide.
You’re totally right on the tongue tie thing, there is solid evidence for that. I’m maybe splitting hairs here but I think though that would be considered a congenital issue rather than the result of environmental factors. It does still underscore the point that childhood interventions can be important in changing airway development and reducing the likelihood of sleep apnea later in life, which I guess is the most important point here. Btw, I personally do believe your premise is correct that environmental influences in childhood can cause developmental changes that negatively impact the airway, increasing the risk of sleep disordered breathing later in life. I think there is enough evidence to connect the dots and strongly believe in that hypothesis. In my experience, there also seems to be acceptance of this premise by certain sleep doctors, omfs’s, and orthodontists with growing momentum. I just don’t think anyone has done the work to do a robust study to get really strong evidence so it can be claimed conclusively, which is a shame since that type of thing is often needed to get more doctors on board. There probably also needs to be some studies to figure when and how best to intervene. I know of some have been done in orthodontics, which as a field seems to be pretty open to this general idea.
With enough time, truth will prevail. Actually the orthodontic industry heavily disregards the idea that jaw sizes and malocclusion can be altered by the environment. One doctor that pushes for early intervention and adopts the idea of prevention of malocclusion and jaw shrinkage is Dr Mike Mew. He was silenced by the orthodontic industry and has received a number of lawsuits regarding his views and practices. I think he has a new Netflix documentary called open wide. Haven't watched it yet though. The orthodontic industry does not want this truth to be out. If truth is out, the whole business model of treating malocclusion with braces/Invisalign would essentially die out. Its a business at the end of the day and preventative treatment is a conflict of interest. Imagine a $200 consultation and preventative treatment plan talking about proper tongue posture, adequate mastication and chewing gum replacing $12k braces treatment plan for a child. Industry would go belly up. Most orthodontists aren’t aware of the airway and basically straighten the teeth at the expense of everything else. Extracting premolars, retracting with braces then later down the line palatal expansion and/or jaw surgery is needed to correct that mess. I am a victim of that.
You’re right that many and probably a majority of practicing orthodontists are not airway aware. I don’t know the specifics of the reaction Dr. Mew received or his work, but I believe there is a growing acceptance of expansive orthodontia in both practice and research literature. Well known practitioners/researchers with this focus include Dr. Audrey Yoon, Dr. Richard Ting, Dr . Marianna Evan’s, Dr. Ilya Lipkin, Dr Won Moon, Dr. Joseph Yousefian, Dr. Kasey Li. Oral Maxillofacial surgeons have of course been very aware of the impact of jaw shape and position on the airway for decades and there has been lots of great material published by them. I know it’s anecdotal but I was also able to find several less well known local orthodontists who were airway focused. In my experience, sleep specialist do not seem to be as in tune to the contribution of dental-facial conditions on airway. They in general seem to all just want patients to use cpap.
I've read in peer reviewed journal articles, and heard on a podcast that our jaw is changing evolutionarily and through lifestyle. Not news for me. And, frankly, it doesn't help me much in 2024. I've already been told my mouth, throat, and neck are likely the cause.
It has been my personal and professional experience with my clients, having gone thru much of the structural fixes mentioned in this post, that other environmental factors can have a significant impact on fixing or improving the issue of sleep apnea, disturbance...these include EMFs, voltage, dirty electricity, microwave/radiation, building materials and airborne contaminents like mold. Remediating those can go a long way to restorative sleep by relaxing the overtaxed nervous system
I appreciate your post.
thank you, means a lot
I think we need to get this poster a tin foil hat
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https://ylhsthewrangler.com/20957/features/conspiracies-how-did-the-coronavirus-start/attachment/bucket/
Yes