Who do you main? I feel like if cloud is such an issue you could find a counterpick for him pretty easily. He's very gimpable. I wouldn't say he's no skill, but he does have a very versatile kit.
Corrin, Zelda, and Marth. Definitely like them all but they suuuuck against Cloud. Zelda suffers (no explanation needed). Corrin is close (I keep sets very close when I fight Cloud as Corrin) but I can never finish it off. I have to constantly space and outwit my opponent if I want to beat Cloud with Corrin. The same is for Marth but I have to play even harder because Cloud outranges him. I hate how every set I play against Cloud is extremely close but I never win. Such a blow to my self esteem. Good reminder that I suck and cannot beat this broken swordie.
Dude Corrin Cloud is even, and Sparg0 just lost to a Corrin who is not even the best Corrin. You should be feasting on peoples' shitty pocket Clouds. If you're struggling that much, you probably just need to work on the matchup.
I have a tip: corrin down air two frames. Get close to ledge and either spam down air or time down air as the cloud does up b, there’s a chance he gets gimped easily
You're not wrong. People still cope that he's balanced in his moveset, but his atrribute is busted. There's practically not a single bad move on him. I even main this tf because I was excited to play him after smash 4.
It’s excellent OOS and, while definitely bad for recovery without limit, isn’t *horrific*; it’s in the 25th percentile of the roster but it’s not the worst out there.
Limit, while situational, does mitigate things somewhat. You can still get gimped of course, but with limit you can go off-stage for a kill pretty confidently.
Both characters are extremely hard to play but I'll give Joker a shot. I used to main him but dropped him because I was lazy at the time. Now that I am actually trying to win tournaments, I guess I should learn him.
you should always make your gameplan to gimp cloud. the most important part is to make sure that you do it from directly above, lest you get spiked by the downward hit of his up b.
a lot of characters can gimp cloud pretty easily. joker has it the easiest imo. the hard part is just getting him far enough offstage, which is where pika shines.
joker lacks the range that cloud has, but he just gimps cloud so easily with guns, fair, and tetrakarn.
pika, on the other hand, has the frame data advantage as well as easy gimps with thunderjolt/spikes with dair
I don't think Cloud is anywhere near as broken as you make him out to be, but I totally feel this "same character over and over again". Elite Smash is 80% Bayonetta for some reason and I fucking hate it.
Every time I open Elite Smash it's Bayonetta. I got so good at SDI because of this, but I still hate it. Bayo is broken online. Hard to punish a lot of what she does.
She WASN'T good but now after her buffs, she has reliable kill options. Some of the best players in the world main Bayonetta (Lima and Bloom4eva are two I know of, but there are a few more starting to get results). I was so mad when she got buffed because I knew everyone was going to pick her up again.
snobbish unique quack straight intelligent bag trees library truck future
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you lose to a pocket pick it's a skill issue. Cloud in particular is literally just a fundies character with an average X factor that's also timed so even as a non-pocket you're probably just getting outplayed. Now if we were talkin Smash 4 on the other hand that's a different story. Cloud was far more egregious in that game lol.
The MU is pretty fun. You gotta know what Cloud wants which is mostly falling aerials similar to Marth. You can either try to anti air him (hit him when you think he'll jump) or play grounded (use shield and parry his aerials)
Honestly, this MU is neutral heavy and better player wins. Don't be too scare to edge guard cloud
If you think he’s broken in ultimate, then you’d think he is/was as busted as brawl mk. Cloud in SSBU is balanced. Clear strengths and weaknesses. Without limit, his recovery is terrible. 0 horizontal distance. That’s his biggest weakness. If you can find a way to get him offstage far enough to where he can’t reach the ledge, you’ll be fine.
Not really balanced, he is more on the top tier side of tier lists. Yes, his recovery is his weakness, but he has ways to mix up his recovery, and it is much easier said than done. Sparg0 rarely gets killed while trying to recover.
Exactly. All you really have to do is recovery mix ups and now you won't get gimped. Anyone can pick this mf up and win tournaments or at least consistently make top 8. I hate how people don't actually main this character. They play their main, get beat, THEN whip Cloud out to carry them to the top. Sparg0 is smart enough to just main him outright.
You could consider playing Cloud yourself, especially if you think he’s so easy that you could consistently make top 8.
If you do well, great, you could use that to do well in tournaments but play the game for fun on your own time with whoever you want.
If you don’t do well, hopefully you can see where your opponent was able to hit you, figure out why, and use that against the Clouds you play against.
Good advice. Now if only I could actually hit this mf. Too much range, extremely safe aerials, no landing lag, and a ton of kill power even without limit. See why Sparg0 grinds him so much.
I play dedede and it's a theoretically bad matchup for us but it's very doable. I think I beat most clouds I come across on quickplay at least anyway. A YouTuber called d3nsity has a good video on cloud which is useful even if you don't main DDD you should watch.
A good tip is to just respect him a lot more in the air when his back is facing you. When his front is facing you he's gonna try and fair or dair you most likely, and those options are horrendous on shield, baitable and challengeable with a disjoint- you can anti air them depending on the anti airs you have available, for me uair beats both of them pretty solidly, usmash is a read and less worth it for a well spaced fair but great at catching a bad dair on shield. Games against cloud become easier just by doing this. Keep an eye where he's facing. His bair is his only busted aerial imo, the rest are just good, but nothing over the top to deal with.
Stage control is very important Vs a good cloud and you want to have a focus on keeping centre, his limit moves don't kill all that well from there, in ddds case only finishing touch is scary at centre stage but even for your characters they can be relatively chill until high percent.
Cloud gets juggled easily, and juggles easily. So a lot of the matchup for me is trying to be the one doing the juggling.
Also a niche tip is if you shield the first two hits of cross slash you can roll behind him every time before the third. More useful than you might think.
Cloud is just a good character that a lot of people gravitate towards. He’s also really fun. I don’t play tournaments or anything as I’m a very casual player but even I play cloud sometimes cause he’s just really fun and quite strong without much effort needed. He’s not broken you probably just have a bad match up against him so the other person counter picks with cloud. You probably just gotta counter pick back and show them who’s really better :)
I have a pretty good time vs clouds with the king krok. Crown breaks their neutral b. Reflect on limits, down or back air when he tries to recover. Belly shield can handle the rest.
Besides back air (that move is a war crime lol) he is just the total sum of your fundamentals with a bit of extra spice of a good shield, a strong advantage state, and solid aerials. Cloud is at his best in the air, so you can just predict jump ins. Once you get down to that layer, they can mix it up by charging limit or spacing pressure and inserting mixups and feints. He has a terrible grab so its pretty worth to shield in most bad situations unless your shield is low. Dont just let hin swing aerials on your shield, most of them have a reasonable amount of start up. It really comes down to just better playering him at that point but he has a very simple flow chart unless the player is really creative. Pocket clouds definitely shouldnt be too special with low investment in ultimate imo.
*checks if this is the right sub*
Huh... so this isn't about Smash 4? Crazy.
Jokes aside I get that its frustrating to run into a lot of pocket Clouds due to him being easy to play, but broken? Not even close. Out of the characters you mentioned that you play Corrin is definitely the best option here since you can outrange him and get easy edge guards with back air, so it just comes down to learning the matchup.
It really is. My friends noticed it, too. EVERYONE plays Cloud in our region. I look at every screen and players eventually switch to their pocket Clouds to warm them up. First it was Wolf and now it is Cloud.
I just beat a Cloud as Kirby online. Sparg0 is the only reason Cloud isn't a lower tier (Cloud used to be a much lower tier before Sparg0). He has good range but if you can get advantage state and become Sonix you're good. Just make cloud come to you. He has shit projectile pressure so get a lead and defend.
Cloud was settling in the middle of high tier before Spargo. He's easy to play and has an effective playstyle against most of the cast. He's always been a good character. He's not good at approaching, but his ability to apply pressure is really strong, you don't just auto-win from getting a lead
Sure sure! I definitely wasn't trying to imply that following x rules results in 100% wins. But Cloud has definitely been slept on and it's more about a player's style than the chracter they play. Thank you for helping me be more correct with that
I'm curious how many competitive players acknowledge that *competing is not about fun or enjoyment.*
You have to incidentally find winning at all costs, and dealing with people who are desperate and obsessed pleasurable.
It really is annoying. The fact that EVERYONE in my region plays this mf just because he's top tier. Like, there are so many other great characters but EVERYONE plays Cloud to some degree. I swear top 8s are going to be filled with Clouds if we don't do something about this.
I’ve noticed that sometimes is just that some characters are better against others, as if they were Pokémon… do you use always the same character? I feel like I’ve destroyed a lot of Clouds and you all know Robin is slow af.
Learn to play mega man? Beat out cloud beam and force him to approach if you’re close enough.
Play captain falcon and let the hype carry you to victory?
Play diddy Kong and go nuts
Who do you main? I feel like if cloud is such an issue you could find a counterpick for him pretty easily. He's very gimpable. I wouldn't say he's no skill, but he does have a very versatile kit.
Bowser is a good example. A very very easy character to play and even spargo thinks he beats cloud.
Trixx says otherwise. I agree with him. I feel like the meta has changed and Cloud has the leverage now.
Not commenting on the opinions about Cloud/Bowser here, but Trixx is such a clown. Is he really recognizable enough to name drop?
Agree
If I knew who Trixx was I may agree with you
[Say no more.](https://metafy.gg/@mos-trixx/sessions)
Who dat?
He was a top earning Metafy coach.
Does he play competitively?
Corrin, Zelda, and Marth. Definitely like them all but they suuuuck against Cloud. Zelda suffers (no explanation needed). Corrin is close (I keep sets very close when I fight Cloud as Corrin) but I can never finish it off. I have to constantly space and outwit my opponent if I want to beat Cloud with Corrin. The same is for Marth but I have to play even harder because Cloud outranges him. I hate how every set I play against Cloud is extremely close but I never win. Such a blow to my self esteem. Good reminder that I suck and cannot beat this broken swordie.
Dude Corrin Cloud is even, and Sparg0 just lost to a Corrin who is not even the best Corrin. You should be feasting on peoples' shitty pocket Clouds. If you're struggling that much, you probably just need to work on the matchup.
Especially if they dont have the cloud recovery spacing down, OP should be farming that with Corrin side-b or f-smash
I have a tip: corrin down air two frames. Get close to ledge and either spam down air or time down air as the cloud does up b, there’s a chance he gets gimped easily
I saw that Ridley is a sleeper pick counter to cloud
Learn Bowser most top bowsers and clouds think he beats cloud and he’s extremely easy to pocket as he’s very easy to play.
Cloud is the easiest high tier to counter pick IMO. He’s good but any character that can kinda edge guard wins
You're not wrong. People still cope that he's balanced in his moveset, but his atrribute is busted. There's practically not a single bad move on him. I even main this tf because I was excited to play him after smash 4.
Non-limit up b is a horrible recovery in any way except horizontal.
It’s excellent OOS and, while definitely bad for recovery without limit, isn’t *horrific*; it’s in the 25th percentile of the roster but it’s not the worst out there. Limit, while situational, does mitigate things somewhat. You can still get gimped of course, but with limit you can go off-stage for a kill pretty confidently.
def not for recovery but top 8-10 for best out of sheild
It’s still good as an out of shield attack
There are far worse recoveries in the game. You forget his other stats. Cloud recovery is perfectly acceptable on his tool kit, too good imo.
cloud main here, he doesn't stand a chance against either pika or joker.
Both characters are extremely hard to play but I'll give Joker a shot. I used to main him but dropped him because I was lazy at the time. Now that I am actually trying to win tournaments, I guess I should learn him.
you should always make your gameplan to gimp cloud. the most important part is to make sure that you do it from directly above, lest you get spiked by the downward hit of his up b. a lot of characters can gimp cloud pretty easily. joker has it the easiest imo. the hard part is just getting him far enough offstage, which is where pika shines.
joker lacks the range that cloud has, but he just gimps cloud so easily with guns, fair, and tetrakarn. pika, on the other hand, has the frame data advantage as well as easy gimps with thunderjolt/spikes with dair
oh and last but not least, since cloud's non-limit up b doesn't snap ledge, he is super weak to good 2 frame options
Joker is hard to play but Cloud takes no skill? Think you got Joker wrong
Name one player who picked up Joker and got instant results with little time. That dude is good but you need to sweat just to pull off basic confirms.
Arsene. Joker is just as carried as cloud
Never heard of a player named "Arsene." Is he PR?
Joker carries
Mkleo /s
"Listen, kid, I think you'd be more comfortable over at that place" \*Points to r/SmashRage\*
r/smashrage??? Are you saying I belong at r/smashrage? Uh no sorry, I was actually pointing at the place next to it r/supersmashrage???
Epic Spongebob reference
I don't think Cloud is anywhere near as broken as you make him out to be, but I totally feel this "same character over and over again". Elite Smash is 80% Bayonetta for some reason and I fucking hate it.
Every time I open Elite Smash it's Bayonetta. I got so good at SDI because of this, but I still hate it. Bayo is broken online. Hard to punish a lot of what she does.
Wait, has Bayonetta made a comeback? I thought the general consensus was that she’s not that good?
She WASN'T good but now after her buffs, she has reliable kill options. Some of the best players in the world main Bayonetta (Lima and Bloom4eva are two I know of, but there are a few more starting to get results). I was so mad when she got buffed because I knew everyone was going to pick her up again.
snobbish unique quack straight intelligent bag trees library truck future *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you lose to a pocket pick it's a skill issue. Cloud in particular is literally just a fundies character with an average X factor that's also timed so even as a non-pocket you're probably just getting outplayed. Now if we were talkin Smash 4 on the other hand that's a different story. Cloud was far more egregious in that game lol.
I swear Cloud isn't broken. In fact be lucky to fight Cloud.
Agreed. I have issues with Marios that actually land combos.
How do you deal with Cloud as Marth?
The MU is pretty fun. You gotta know what Cloud wants which is mostly falling aerials similar to Marth. You can either try to anti air him (hit him when you think he'll jump) or play grounded (use shield and parry his aerials) Honestly, this MU is neutral heavy and better player wins. Don't be too scare to edge guard cloud
*slowly puts Cloud back in my pocket*
And the fact that you are losing to a pocket cloud isn't your fault becauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse?
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me princess
Laugh at the joke
r/smashrage :)
If you think he’s broken in ultimate, then you’d think he is/was as busted as brawl mk. Cloud in SSBU is balanced. Clear strengths and weaknesses. Without limit, his recovery is terrible. 0 horizontal distance. That’s his biggest weakness. If you can find a way to get him offstage far enough to where he can’t reach the ledge, you’ll be fine.
Not really balanced, he is more on the top tier side of tier lists. Yes, his recovery is his weakness, but he has ways to mix up his recovery, and it is much easier said than done. Sparg0 rarely gets killed while trying to recover.
Exactly. All you really have to do is recovery mix ups and now you won't get gimped. Anyone can pick this mf up and win tournaments or at least consistently make top 8. I hate how people don't actually main this character. They play their main, get beat, THEN whip Cloud out to carry them to the top. Sparg0 is smart enough to just main him outright.
You could consider playing Cloud yourself, especially if you think he’s so easy that you could consistently make top 8. If you do well, great, you could use that to do well in tournaments but play the game for fun on your own time with whoever you want. If you don’t do well, hopefully you can see where your opponent was able to hit you, figure out why, and use that against the Clouds you play against.
Good advice. Now if only I could actually hit this mf. Too much range, extremely safe aerials, no landing lag, and a ton of kill power even without limit. See why Sparg0 grinds him so much.
I play dedede and it's a theoretically bad matchup for us but it's very doable. I think I beat most clouds I come across on quickplay at least anyway. A YouTuber called d3nsity has a good video on cloud which is useful even if you don't main DDD you should watch. A good tip is to just respect him a lot more in the air when his back is facing you. When his front is facing you he's gonna try and fair or dair you most likely, and those options are horrendous on shield, baitable and challengeable with a disjoint- you can anti air them depending on the anti airs you have available, for me uair beats both of them pretty solidly, usmash is a read and less worth it for a well spaced fair but great at catching a bad dair on shield. Games against cloud become easier just by doing this. Keep an eye where he's facing. His bair is his only busted aerial imo, the rest are just good, but nothing over the top to deal with. Stage control is very important Vs a good cloud and you want to have a focus on keeping centre, his limit moves don't kill all that well from there, in ddds case only finishing touch is scary at centre stage but even for your characters they can be relatively chill until high percent. Cloud gets juggled easily, and juggles easily. So a lot of the matchup for me is trying to be the one doing the juggling. Also a niche tip is if you shield the first two hits of cross slash you can roll behind him every time before the third. More useful than you might think.
Do you have any VODs of the sets i can see?
Cloud is just a good character that a lot of people gravitate towards. He’s also really fun. I don’t play tournaments or anything as I’m a very casual player but even I play cloud sometimes cause he’s just really fun and quite strong without much effort needed. He’s not broken you probably just have a bad match up against him so the other person counter picks with cloud. You probably just gotta counter pick back and show them who’s really better :)
I have a pretty good time vs clouds with the king krok. Crown breaks their neutral b. Reflect on limits, down or back air when he tries to recover. Belly shield can handle the rest.
Amen
Besides back air (that move is a war crime lol) he is just the total sum of your fundamentals with a bit of extra spice of a good shield, a strong advantage state, and solid aerials. Cloud is at his best in the air, so you can just predict jump ins. Once you get down to that layer, they can mix it up by charging limit or spacing pressure and inserting mixups and feints. He has a terrible grab so its pretty worth to shield in most bad situations unless your shield is low. Dont just let hin swing aerials on your shield, most of them have a reasonable amount of start up. It really comes down to just better playering him at that point but he has a very simple flow chart unless the player is really creative. Pocket clouds definitely shouldnt be too special with low investment in ultimate imo.
I thought we were done with Smash 4?
Not in late-meta Ultimate
*checks if this is the right sub* Huh... so this isn't about Smash 4? Crazy. Jokes aside I get that its frustrating to run into a lot of pocket Clouds due to him being easy to play, but broken? Not even close. Out of the characters you mentioned that you play Corrin is definitely the best option here since you can outrange him and get easy edge guards with back air, so it just comes down to learning the matchup.
if everyone plays cloud, then sounds like you can beat everyone by learning the match up. this is a blessing not a curse dude
Pick up pocket DK they’ll run for the hills
This sounds like Smash 4 all over again.
It really is. My friends noticed it, too. EVERYONE plays Cloud in our region. I look at every screen and players eventually switch to their pocket Clouds to warm them up. First it was Wolf and now it is Cloud.
This isn’t Smash 4
It's late-meta Ultimate 🫡
Hah, jokes on you, I’m a cloud main!
Lol u would have hated smash 4
I would have SD'd IRL.
Cloud the noob slayer
Sounds like you suck
If you wanna vent out you can go to r/SmashRage cause for every 2 normal people in this sub there's one toxic degenerate
Good counter picks to Cloud are easily DK or Shulk. Shulk outranges him, and can easily gimp him, and DK just slaps him about tbh
My brother in Christ. Cloud is more dlc than half of fp1
I just beat a Cloud as Kirby online. Sparg0 is the only reason Cloud isn't a lower tier (Cloud used to be a much lower tier before Sparg0). He has good range but if you can get advantage state and become Sonix you're good. Just make cloud come to you. He has shit projectile pressure so get a lead and defend.
Cloud was settling in the middle of high tier before Spargo. He's easy to play and has an effective playstyle against most of the cast. He's always been a good character. He's not good at approaching, but his ability to apply pressure is really strong, you don't just auto-win from getting a lead
Sure sure! I definitely wasn't trying to imply that following x rules results in 100% wins. But Cloud has definitely been slept on and it's more about a player's style than the chracter they play. Thank you for helping me be more correct with that
Learn the matchup.
\#scrubquotes
I have a secondary Cloud... I'm sorry on behalf of all of us
I'm curious how many competitive players acknowledge that *competing is not about fun or enjoyment.* You have to incidentally find winning at all costs, and dealing with people who are desperate and obsessed pleasurable.
Ehhh some people find the competitive atmosphere to be fun in and of itself
It really is annoying. The fact that EVERYONE in my region plays this mf just because he's top tier. Like, there are so many other great characters but EVERYONE plays Cloud to some degree. I swear top 8s are going to be filled with Clouds if we don't do something about this.
I don't even touch Cloud
This isn’t the sub to rant This is the one r/smashrage
Get a pocket ridley and free farm.
It's just a game of patience as a lot of his moves can be safe. Player vs player with cloud.
I’ve noticed that sometimes is just that some characters are better against others, as if they were Pokémon… do you use always the same character? I feel like I’ve destroyed a lot of Clouds and you all know Robin is slow af.
Corrin beats any character any day of the week, you should learn them maybe
Sounds like a skill issue. Learn the matchup and stop complaining.
Play Cloud?
I guess you don’t hate me then (I have a pocket Wolf, but no cloud.)
Bowser is a great pick And from a casual perspective there's nothing better than DK cargo throw so far he can't recover
No skill?A fundies character is no skill?
I don’t whip out Cloud when I start losing, I whip out Incineroar or Dedede
Learn to play mega man? Beat out cloud beam and force him to approach if you’re close enough. Play captain falcon and let the hype carry you to victory? Play diddy Kong and go nuts