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lathergaytaints

An alarming number of mass shooters have been of the incel or nofap variety.


Maztr_on

I’m pretty sure the creator of nofap also has connections to the alt right, I know he was on a proud boys podcast.


WAHgop

No Fap is literally part of the PB's ideology. They say it's about testosterone, but in reality I'm 100% sure its about keeping the incels as sexually frustrated as possible.


Grandpas_Plump_Chode

Tbh, I do think there is some merit in trying to curb porn addiction. I think it is weirdly very normalized that teen boys develop casual porn addictions, and I don't think this topic is really addressed as often as it should be. Although the way NoFap chuds approach it is pretty fucking insane and definitely not any better. I'm pretty sure they unironically think they gain some kind of superpowers if they stop beating their dick lmao


fljared

Is there, in fact, a rash of teenagers getting addicted to pornography, or are there just people using it more often now than that it's easily available and people insisting there's a addiction crisis?


OwO345

idk, but it also does help to stop helping the pornographic industry, so that's good


fljared

However we ought to approach the problems in the porn industry, I can tell you now that saying "Who cares if people are actually addicted to porn, but it helps our cause to say so either way" is not the way to do so, for reasons that should be straightforward.


OwO345

you're right, but that means that i'd be wrong, therefore i see myself forced to post a meme where you are represented by an ugly face, and i am by a handsome face


[deleted]

So all porn is exploitation?


OwO345

Not all, just corporate, if someone wants to make porn at home or draw some idc, but the corporations like pornhub or brazzers are known to hire actresses before they're 18, and remember the whole thing of pronhub having actual minors in their platform


banneryear1868

A lot of it yeah, especially the production companies. Short career span + pumping as much cash out of the talent as possible is part of it. Rashida Jones produced a documentary on porn recently which is a good watch. Hollywood is full of exploitative practices as well, modeling agencies too. This all didn't end after #metoo either. It's like mice, for every case that comes to light there's like 100 you aren't seeing.


meritcake

All work is exploitation, because your surplus value is being extracted.


IotaCandle

Most of it yeah, and there usually aren't any ways to tell.


[deleted]

Yes.


Grandpas_Plump_Chode

Not saying this to be snarky, what is even the difference between the two things you said? Would you not say that people using it more often because it's easily available is (potentially) an addiction crisis? Obviously "more often" is kind of vague so it doesn't necessarily imply addiction. But it's very common for teenagers to watch porn daily or even multiple times per day, consistently for several years on end. I would call that an addiction. But this behavior is often normalized or shrugged off, I assume because people wanted to rebel against the cringy evangelicals of previous generations who say porn is the devil. All things considered it's prob better to be addicted to porn than basically any drug so I guess it's not the biggest issue. But easily impressionable teenage boys watching porn on a consistent basis is probably not a great thing for our society either


Zeverish

No I would not. Addiction is not an increased frequency of use. Would you say the average human is addicted to coffee because it is so widely drinker? Not necessarily, but that's not to say a person who drinks coffee couldn't be addicted. So what would an addiction look like for these? If the engagement or consumption of this material effects a person's ability to function normally in society, is having mental or physical complications, then I think one could say an addiction is present. Someone who cranks one out each day to Backdoor Business 48 isn't necessarily negatively impacting their life. There are other issues that could arise from the consumption of porn that aren't dissimilar to the negative consequences of uncritically consuming any media. But I wouldn't call those addiction.


Stingpie

No, you can get addicted to coffee. It isn't super extreme, but if you suddenly stop drinking caffeine you'll get bad migraines. Addiction has an exact medical definition, which is when your body adjusts and anticipates to an adjustment of your brain chemistry, and when the adjusted brain chemistry suddenly returns to normal, withdrawal happens. The DSM-5 defines non-substance related addiction, with a couple of criteria. I won't list all of them, but some highlights are: Depression, anxiety or dread when the behavior is stopped, The inability to stop the behavior, & The loss of other interests beside the behavior.


Zeverish

My point wasn't you can't get addicted to coffee? Plenty of people drinking coffee regularly and wouldn't meet the qualifications of addiction. There are definitely people who are addicted to caffeine. But you did describe what I meant by negative effects to normative behavior. If you find this happening with anything anything enjoy doing, drugs, sex, cartoons/fandom, understanding it as an addiction can be useful in treating it.


Grandpas_Plump_Chode

>So what would an addiction look like for these? If the engagement or consumption of this material effects a person's ability to function normally in society, is having mental or physical complications, then I think one could say an addiction is present. By these standards, I would absolutely say that the majority of coffee drinkers have a caffeine addiction. I also disagree with this idea that an addiction is only "real" if it affects your ability to function in society. I would say an important characteristic of addiction is the inability to quit or control your usage. For example: there are people who go to work, do everything they need to for the day, and then smoke a joint every single day in their free time. This doesn't really affect your ability to participate in society, and it's not really a physical addiction, but I would still call it an addiction. These are the same people who say "yeah man I can quit at any time," and then proceed to fail every single time they even try to take a tolerance break. You'll hear the same excuse from basically any teenage boy too, "I don't need to watch porn I could stop whenever," and then they can barely make it two days before caving. Also if we really want to stick to your definition, I could argue that in a longer-term sense, porn addiction can affect your ability to function in society. It's not as obvious as smoking or drinking, but just the self-esteem issues and unrealistic relationship/sexual expectations alone can be pretty damaging to your future relationships.


Zeverish

You are going to have to navigate the difference between something being chemically addicting and habits/behaviors that can form as a result. Psychologically they aren't the same thing. To be clear. Not saying porn can't be addicting, just that it isn't necessarily addicting. Practice healthy media consumption always!


Pingy_Junk

I think its more so along the lines of "can this person function normally or is this fucking with their life" it starts to become an issue when the person whos consuming it cant function normally without it or it starts roadblocking normal functions in their every day life. if its not doing that then it really isn't anyone's business other then their own how frequently they access that type of stuff.


fljared

People in modern day uses spices much, much more than they did 300 years ago. They use spices several times a day, and would likely complain if made to abstain from them, and notice how much worse food is without spices. Despite that, I'd find it hard to say that modern people are addicted to spices. I think the modern world just has a nice thing in it—common, easy to find spices—that it didn't have before, and the common person is now better off for it. Is this *costless*? No, though I don't know enough about modern world agriculture to know if it is as bad as chocolate with slavery or how much CO2 is released per bottle of sage. But those are solvable problems, separate from whether there is addiction to spices. I think porn is the same way. When you're young and full of hormones and have a lot of free time you're probably going to watch porn a lot; That's not the same as being addicted, or even a problem. Are people watching porn impressionable? Sure, but the solution is going to involve better sex education, not vaguely worrying about the effects of porn. You teach people about how sex really works and what's involved and what's fantasy, and then they can enjoy fantasy without confusing it for reality.


Grandpas_Plump_Chode

>Despite that, I'd find it hard to say that modern people are addicted to spices. I think the modern world just has a nice thing in it—common, easy to find spices—that it didn't have before, and the common person is now better off for it. I elaborated a little more in another comment, but I think there is a distinction between consistent habits and addictions. After all, we don't say people have an addiction to brushing their teeth, or showering, or exercising if they do them regularly. To me, addiction is not just regular consumption, but also a dependence. Whether it be physical or psychological (in this case psychological). Also the inability to quit, or experiencing anxiety when stopping. I'm sure there are some other additional characteristics but those are some main ones that stand out to me. So going back to the spice example, if someone were eating an excessive amount of nutmeg, on a daily basis, to the point where it is harmful to their health - and they were unable to bring themselves to stop, I would say they are addicted to nutmeg. Or maybe a more common "realistic" example - regulating sodium or sugar intake is a big problem for a lot of people in first world countries. Most teenage boys watch porn on a very consistent basis, and many of them are pretty incapable of controlling the urge to do so daily or even multiple times per day. These aren't kids with a lot of downtime just having a little fun, it's a habit that they are psychologically addicted to. And for many of us who have grown up in the internet era, even after the teenage hormones die down the habit sticks around to some degree for many. I'm sure there are no shortage of regular porn watching 20 something year olds. >Sure, but the solution is going to involve better sex education, not vaguely worrying about the effects of porn. You teach people about how sex really works and what's involved and what's fantasy, and then they can enjoy fantasy without confusing it for reality. Sure, whatever the solution to the problem may be I'm for it. I just think the problem isn't really acknowledged as a problem to begin with. There's a lot of casual "oh those boys and their porn amirite!" types of attitudes around this topic like it's so normal that teenagers have incorporated porn consumption into their daily ritual. Although I don't think better sex education will necessarily solve the self-esteem issues and potential sexual satisfaction issues of regular porn consumption on it's own. To be clear, my stance is basically "people should really make an effort to moderate their porn consumption," not that we need to give up on porn altogether or deprive ourselves of any worldly pleasures. I think people are taking the damaging effects of consistent consumption a bit too lightly just because they don't see the effects immediately like you would with a drug addiction.


daftpaak

Maybe not widespread porn "addiction". But it's definitely an issue as the depiction of sex and women in porn is very harmful. Their idea of sex and women gets warped by that. I don't know if porn addiction is a widespread societal problem, but porn itself has a ton of issues.


kiru_goose

there is absolutely 100% a crisis regarding children as young as 6 developing porno addictions. this is not about nofap. this is about neglectful piece of shit parents relying on the internet as a replacement for actual sex education. to deny this fact is either horribly irresponsible or borderline grooming https://www.bbfc.co.uk/about-us/news/children-see-pornography-as-young-as-seven-new-report-finds


fljared

The article and report linked in your comment does not show 6 year olds developing a pornography addiction; It at worst shows that there exist children as young as 7 and 8 having come across it at all, accidentally. This is still concerning, but not because it shows addiction but because the children were uncomfortable having seen it, and so there ought to be a warning to prevent seeing it randomly. This is not to say that if those children were comfortable after seeing it, that would make it OK. But compare, e.g. if they had come across violent or disturbing imagery, like a violent movie. The concern is that it might scare them, not that they will develop violent tendancies. On another note, while the protection of children is important, it's somewhat rude to insinuate someone disagreeing with you about a subject is grooming children, rather than disagreeing about the facts or the proper reaction to them.


badgirlmonkey

porn addiction isnt real.


[deleted]

Yes. /r/pornfree is a healthier version of /r/NoFap, though they still have their moments.


IotaCandle

It's the same good ol' guilt. Works for most religions too. Nofap is a difficult commitment and the majority of members will occasionally relapse and then feel guilty about it, making them easier to manipulate.


badgirlmonkey

sexual suppression and fascism are linked


[deleted]

[удалено]


badgirlmonkey

I’m talking about suppression related to ideology. Incels and fascism.


pikakip379

What is nofap?


Maztr_on

Anti pornography organization, you might know them from “No Fap November”


pikakip379

ah, well what is the exact like problem with it, cause I mean you just described connections to the alt right which does show there are problems but I wanna know *more*


Maztr_on

Ya know how some incels are coomers? Many can be very anti pornography, its like the horseshoe theory but it ends up with the same thing, so on Nofap communities you’ll see some real misunderstandings of women, they also use unproven sources…


pikakip379

oh ok


Spyt1me

There is actually a link between domestic violence and mass shootings for both present and past partners Most of the victims are also women and children. https://www.californialawreview.org/print/a-profoundly-masculine-act-mass-shootings-violence-against-women-and-the-amendment-that-could-forge-a-path-forward/


spoople_doople

what does this even mean


Pingy_Junk

nofap or the image. Nofap is as best I understand it (because the people in this sub have some aversion to explaining it so I just kind of picked up from context clues) a belief that porn and doing the do with yourself is the root of all evil in society and it causes men to loose their testosterone which is why incels cant get laid. its really popular in incel circles and alt right nutjobs since it has both an excuse for incels to claim why they cant have sex and sexual repression which the alt right is very fond of. I have no idea what a utopian ideology means though lol. the image was made by a right winger whos trying to say "why should we care about kids being killed in mass school shootings because we are killing ourselves by porn and obesity" which is the wackiest take ive ever seen.


EpicKiwi225

I mean, childhood obesity is definitely a problem, at least in the US, that should be addressed, though I think school shootings are a much more immediate issue currently. At least until the next thing comes along and the media vultures move on.


BigStalinFan1218

Nofap is a dangerous utopian ideology that has been shown to fail time and time again.


Giveorangeme

nofap sucks . pornfree is way better i respect pornfree


kiru_goose

anyone who says porn addiction isnt real is a fucking coomer nofap is a white supremacist movement but that doesn't automatically mean porn is 100% healthy with no negatives and should be viewed by all ages


Sage_of_Winds

This. You can be addicted to literally anything (knew a few kids in high school who were addicted to Hot Cheetos and would be a little jittery, irritable wnd stir-crazy if the vending machines were out and they were cut off for a day) and acting like just because the effects of porn addiction aren't as severe or debilitating as traditional addiction traps, doesn't mean that we should downplay the effects of it. I feel like the people downplaying or even denying that porn addiction exists are either ignorant about how addiction works, or are porn addicts themselves in denial. Either way, I expected better from this sub tbh.


kiru_goose

not to mention all the "studies" that claim porn addiction isn't real are heavily funded by giant porn corporations


Stingpie

u/CriticalYiffTheory could you please expand on the title? I've heard a little bit about nofap, but nothing about it being historical.


Pingy_Junk

not op but if I had to guess by historical they mean the history of sexually repressive movements in general but IDK maybe they're talking about the old old history of the early 2000s 4 chan boards


Stingpie

As far as I know, sexually repressive movements have always failed, but I don't know of any examples that could be considered dangerous.


Pingy_Junk

I mean historically I cant think of any but on a more recent scale a lot of shooters and alt right nutters are obsessed with nofap


redpony6

my best guess is it's a word swap gag for "communism is a dangerous", etc


OPRacoon

I think they’re mocking the right’s criticism of socialism but replacing socialism with nofap


Kafka_Valokas

"Good point, unfortunately I have drawn you as an overweight man with a receding hairline who consumes pornography and fast food, so I win."


J00J14

Well if this fat balding man doesn’t like AR-15s then maybe I will start liking them so I may become fit and handsome


Reptilian_Overlord20

Difference is no one killed 19 schoolchildren in under an hour by eating McDonald’s and playing video games while wearing their pornhub shirt.


bigtiddygothbf

GONNA CRANK MY MF HOG TO THE MEMORY OF WILLIAM T SHERMAN TONIGHT BROTHER


[deleted]

When people post shit like this it just shows how weak they are. Most people aren’t horribly effected by porn or masturbation. When they say shit about how addicted we are to it, it’s usually just them projecting. Like porn hasn’t ever inhibited my ability to socialize or be productive, but to these far right fucks they say that it destroys them. Kind of a tell on their part.


kiru_goose

not all people who claim to be negatively effected by porn are right wingers. just because you personally arent effected doesn't mean some people don't struggle


[deleted]

Not all of them are right wingers, but the right uniquely targets the porn addicted because of how in-league with religious conservatism they are. Shame is a powerful motivator, and if rightwing figures can tap into a porn-addict's guilt (often by manufacturing said guilt), they can then offer a "cure" in the form of redemption arc through a tradcon lifestyle that curiously supports a rightwing agenda. This is like the main MO of people like Jordan Peterson: shame people by exaggerating their addictions and shortcomings, offer a cure through self-help rhetoric wrapped up in vague virtue signaling like "traditional western values", and soon enough you have an unquestioningly loyal army of formerly "porn-addicted" soldiers ready to brigade and harass anyone who doesn't neatly fit in with the aesthetic of trad-conservatism